Irene Lyon & Max Lowen Healing from Satanic Ritual Abuse

[Speaker 1] (0:00 - 1:08) All right, guys, welcome back to Here for the Truth. My name is Joel Rafiti. I got my co-host Rasmus with me as always. And today, it's our absolute pleasure and honor to be able to host this unique conversation between nervous system expert, Irene Lyon, and satanic ritual abuse survivor, Max Loewen, both previous guests of our podcast. Both incredible episodes. I highly implore you guys to go check their individual episodes out also. But we decided to have this conversation after Irene listened to Max's incredible recounting and testimony of her experience as someone who was heavily abused and trafficked in satanic cults. And this is an incredible, unique perspective, which we're going to be able to provide here through the lens of Irene as a trained somatic nervous system expert. Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. Please share this episode. There's a lot of value, a lot of gold here and a lot of really, really important information, which needs to get out into the collective fray in a deeper manner. [Speaker 2] (1:09 - 1:16) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Rasmus. [Speaker 1] (1:19 - 20:09) Okay, today in this special episode of Here for the Truth, we have two previous guests joining us together. We have Irene Lyon, who previously joined us on episode 68, and also with her husband Seth Lyon on episode 104. For those that don't know, she is a nervous system expert, teaching people around the world how to work with the nervous system to transform trauma, heal body, mind, and live full creative lives. And also with us here today is Max Loewen. From episode 172, she is a survivor of satanic ritual abuse, torture, and trafficking, who went on to do her healing work and train in trauma and recovery to help other survivors and those trapped in the cycle of violence. And we are incredibly grateful to be able to host this unique conversation between Irene and Max. Just to kick things off, Irene listened to Max's episode with us some time ago. And obviously, the extremely traumatic experiences that Max experienced, we believe Irene can have a unique lens and perspective on that. And looking forward to this conversation. So ladies, thank you both so much for being here. And it's good to see you both. Thanks, Joel. Come on. It's great to be here again with you guys. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. Irene, what were your initial thoughts as you were listening to Max's episode? Her initial story in that first 40 minutes or so was really, really mind expanding, and obviously extremely triggering for some of our listeners and audience. And we preface that appropriately for that reason. And this stuff is real, this stuff happens. And I just want to get some overall general insights from you first and foremost. Yeah. I wish that I was shocked when I heard her story. It's the truth. I think, you know, having been in this world of, you know, the classic term is somatic experiencing. That's one of the things I've studied. I know you're is well versed in that as well. I've sat and watched my mentors, specifically Peter Levine, talk to many of his clients, just abuse after abuse, or tragedy. And what is always amazing to me is how these folks are there wanting to heal, you know, 30, 40 years later. And to me, that's the real juice. And so there's this weird thing where I hear these stories of tragedy. And I don't put a valence on them, personally. I don't like to compare one trauma is bigger than the other. And while we could do that, I often say, yeah, there's a child down the street right now who's probably being abused by someone. And I know that's a reality. And then listening to Max's story, it confirmed what I had learned a long time ago about satanic abuse, ritual abuse in a book I had read in grade 11. It was not a required reading book in my school curriculum. It was something I just happened upon at the library as I do. And the book was called Satan's Children. I've got it actually right here, Case Studies and Multiple Personality by Dr. Robert S. Mayer. And I read this in like 1991, and was just enthralled with the ways in which humans could cope and manage and stay alive by creating these multiples. And what fascinated me was it wasn't just one multiple personality. It would be an entire orchestra or government that would live within this one person system to figure out how to live and how to be in the world. And for me personally, when I read this book back then, there was never anything in my mind, you guys, that was like, this can't be true. For whatever reason, my mind, my soul knew that it was accurate. And so when I heard Max talk to you guys, and it was a pretty intense sharing of your history, Max, for me, no disgust, no horror came up. It was just what I have heard and also seen in private practice. And I have worked with not many, but a few people that have been within these cults and the stories they tell me about what they had to do as children and the things they saw. And these are towns just five hours from where I grew up. So this isn't just something that happens at the Vatican or at some ancient temple. It is happening in urban and rural Canada as well. So anyway, for me, I wish I could say, like I said, I was shocked, but it was just like, okay, wow. And what an amazing thing that there's someone who has survived and is thriving and is talking about this stuff. So that was sort of my sense of it. And then also just your humanity, Max, and hearing the areas that you do still struggle with. I remember you mentioned that you still struggle with animals that are harmed in that. And I have a soft spot for animals too, because both my parents are veterinarians. So I grew up watching animals come into the clinic who were not being taken care of by their owners. And as a little girl, that affected me maybe more than some of the stories I hear around adults being harmed, oddly. So yeah, that was sort of my general feel. And I instantly sent a note to Erosimos and I said, wow, what an important conversation this one that you've had with Max. Yeah. Well, I just want to thank you for listening to the episode and for being open to have this conversation. Max, is there anything you want to comment on or just share? Yeah. Yeah. I want to comment on two things you said. One is that we shouldn't compare with trauma, because really it's a continuum, right? So maybe my experiences are here, but you cannot incarnate on this planet as it has been so far and not become traumatized to some degree, whether it's within a family, but collectively, because a global satanic cult runs the planet, they have set it up to be traumatic from birth on, right? So you can't escape it. It does the same thing to the nervous system. It does the same thing to the psyche. My situation is very, very brutal, but the consequences will be similar to someone who, let's just say, had only one rate. So you can't really compare because it's the same. We respond the same. And then I wanted to comment on what you said about how this just doesn't happen in the Vatican. That is correct. So this cult has, it has factions and at the higher level, it's like the Freemasons and the Vatican and the Council on Foreign Relations and all the intelligence agencies and all that, but they have it structured where they go down to the local town level. So they will always have one of their people at the head of the local hospital, the local school, the local social services or child services. So they have been very thorough and very clever. So this type of thing occurs in neighborhoods. It's hidden, but it occurs everywhere. So you're absolutely correct. So those are the two things I kind of wanted to touch on that Irene said. Yeah. I want to kick this off. And you mentioned incarnation. And I don't want to ask this question from coming from a place of trying to rationalize or bypass anything, whatnot. And I'm asking this to both of you. Do we, on some level, choose the trauma that we experience? What are your thoughts on that? Obviously, this is a topic that taps deep into soul trauma. And I'm curious, I guess, what your thoughts are on that. I'm by no means an expert. This is where if my husband was here, he'd have a bit more intelligence because he's a bit more versed in timeline wars and reincarnation machines and all these things that some of my other mentors talk about. So I'm not going to I know the answers to all this, but I do think that there is some record maybe that has been written. Some people will call it the Akashic records. The people say it's written in the stars that we have an idea that this is going to occur to us. But I also, I would never say, if I was working, I'm not in private practice anymore, but I would never say to someone, this happened to you because you wanted it to happen. This is like you signed up for this. I think that's cruel to say that to someone, even if that is what we signed up for, when it is in the moment, as Max said, it's impacting us with full color and full horror and trauma. I also know in my own personal healing, which hasn't been through abuse, it's been through other means of trauma that I've experienced, that now that I'm on the other side, I have empathy towards maybe the fact that I had to go on this route because now I have a better lens to understand others who have gone through, like for me personally, Max, I had a whole bunch of chemical trauma. So my mother was exposed to DDT weekly as a young girl. I was in her womb as she was in chemicals all day long, working in veterinary clinics for maldehyde bleach. And then I was born into an animal hospital. I was working in the hospital from a young age with steroid creams all over me. Anyway, long story short, the suffering I've had is very different than yours, but when you're in it wanting to die, which there were moments where I did want to die when I was covered in these burns, if someone would have said, well, you signed up for this, I would have smacked them. And now that I've done the work and I've gone back preconception with some of my more Akashic record coaches, they're like, something implanted this in you because they were trying to stop you from being who you are meant to be, which is to help people and teach people. So they knew this soul was coming into the world to be amazing and brilliant. And they implanted, it's going to sound crazy for some, but they implanted, not for you guys, this condition to try to keep you from being brilliant. And all I did in my fucking life was fight and fight and fight and heal and say, nope, I'm not going to live with this forever. I'm not going to live with this forever. And that's what led me down the holistic route. So that's my very long way of answering that, Joel. I'm sure Max has some really good thoughts on this too, but those are my thoughts on choosing our paths around trauma. Cool. Max, go for it. Yeah. So, okay. So I would liken it to not necessarily that we chose to suffer the traumas, but more that we like elite warriors chose to come onto a planet that's at war. And we knew we would suffer with having to come here and do what we had to do. Or it's like a soldier who, a person who goes into the military, they don't say, oh, I'm going into the military to be hurt and tortured and suffer. No, they're going for a cause. So I personally remember, I have memories before incarnating being at a big galactic meeting and discussing the earth and the situation that the planet was in. And I wasn't from this planet and neither were a lot of the people at the meeting, but everything is interrelated, interdependent. So what happened on earth was going to affect all of us regardless of whether we were on or from earth or not. So I'd actually remember volunteering to come. And my sense is that, you know, like, okay, if I want to end satanic ritual abuse and the torture of children, what better way than to dive right into the darkest place on earth when they're doing that. It's like being a secret agent. It's like going into it, experiencing it. I knew that I'd had the strength to and the resilience to make it back out. And mind you, it's been really rough. So I'm not going to sugar coat it, but here I am, I've done it. And now because I was in it, I have a particular angle at a particular voice to help. And that's my goal. I want to expose this and end this. And then I want to help people come back from, because everybody, like I've said, has some degree of trauma. So again, so to wrap it up, I wouldn't say I chose to come and get sex trafficked and tortured and all that. But I chose to come as a warrior in a spiritual war between evil and good. And to transition, when you zoom out, you know, the planet's an individual, it's a being too. And then there's lots of beings like us and others that live on the planet. So I wanted to come to see if I could do my part to transition this out of the evilness and the darkness that it's been in for a long time. Because the people that control this planet, we have cycles, we have galactic cycles, astrological cycles, and they knew that we were entering a light age now. So they've done everything they can, so desperately, as you could see in the last few years, to get their final agenda done. Because we have an opportunity now, we have a huge opportunity to transition individually and collectively. So yeah, so I did volunteer to come here, but that's not the same as saying I wanted the suffering. Yeah. And there's also a difference between like coming to some sort of conclusion or observation within oneself after the fact, after you've gone through certain things, as opposed to, hey, you just went through a trauma, I'm going to sit here all knowing and uber spiritual, and I'm going to tell you that, you know what, this is perfect, this is happening perfectly for you right now, and you chose this. Like, fuck off. You know, that's where I draw the line. And what's also interesting to think about is that we're talking about a lot of this stuff from a human standpoint. And so what does the soul have the same view or experience of pain as we do as human beings, as we're trying to talk about this and think about this idea? We're a soul. Like, I don't know what happens before we come down into this earth. Is a soul going through some process and being like, yeah, cool, I'm cool. I'll experience that. You know, because they don't have the same reference point on pain and suffering that a human would. I mean, again, this is just something to contemplate. I have no idea. But I think it's good to delineate that like a human being versus a soul in general may have a different view or connection to some horrible things that could occur, potentially. Yeah. I love that, Joel. If I can, I mean, Gerasimos, if I can just jump in. I fully agree. And because I, you know, I had what they call near-death experiences. I mean, it's really like you die and then you come back in your body many times. So, what I can say is it is different. When you're not in the body, you know, it doesn't seem, you don't really get the degree that you're going to experience it in a body because you're not. And then when you're in the body, you know, I mean, I joke sometimes I'm like, God, what was I thinking? You know, when you're here and I say that something sometimes to spirit, I'm like, oh my God, like, what the fuck? Like, you need to, you know, when I talk to my higher self or other beings, it's like, you need to really understand how we are, I'm experiencing it or we're experiencing it in a body. It is very different. Well, it's the, yeah, it's the, it's the, you know, to pull in these terms, these 3D, 4D, 5D, 10D, you know, the physical body is, is heavy and it's impacted by gravity and it's messy and you got to take care of it. And, you know, this comes back to probably what you guys talked to Seth about is the spiritual bypass elements. You know, there's that, and then there's people who are only about the body and aren't able to connect to this bigger picture and this soul. And what's fascinating is when you look at some of my main mentors and even some of the great thinkers of the world, they're very much both steeped in the physical, the scientific, the biology is what I prefer to call it, and the spirit, the soul, that ether that they can't, you can't touch. But, you know, this, I do believe to go back to sort of what you had mentioned, Joel, about reincarnation and is we come back to keep making it better. At least that's what, how I see it is we have to come back to make it right. And I've read quite a few books on thinking of Brian Weiss's books. I'm not sure if you've read his book. Many Lives, Many Masters. [Speaker 2] (20:09 - 20:09) Yes, thank you. [Speaker 1] (20:10 - 44:15) Actually, oddly, that was another book that I randomly picked off of a library shelf. I was looking for another book in this academic library and there his book was and I picked it off and read it, fascinated. And again, none of it said to me, this isn't true. I'm like, this is so true. This is so true. And his stories, for those that, you know, because I know my audience is probably going to be watching this and some of these topics are a little like, what? Irene's never been on a talk where they talk about the Galactic Federation, you know, isn't she crazy? But this is stuff that I understand. But when I read that book, it landed in a different way because he had through his client, a voice come out of her that was something not her, and it wasn't God, but it was telling him stuff that there's no way this woman would have known about why he lost a child. If you can recall in that story, he wasn't, why did we lose a child? This is the worst thing you could do to a parent. And they took him back to in this other life, you had done these bad things. So this is your karmic punishment for that. And it was a lot for him to take in. And I know Joel, you've just lost a little one. So it's like, it's heated. But when you look at it from his perspective and this story, it's like, wow, that is really interesting. Yeah, it's a great book. And what I love about that book, and I think it relates to other fields that we've seen people kind of expand their minds as he was more conventional. He was more kind of conventional psychiatrist or whatever. And then this, I think it was a colleague of his. Referred. Yeah, it was like, hey, maybe you can work with this person. And he's like, I'll try some stuff. Yeah. I'll try some past life regression. And then like this experience happened and the book highlights that. And then, of course, he went on to be someone who kind of dove into these fields more deeply. Well, and he kept it hidden for quite a while. He was afraid. He was afraid to talk about these experiences because he didn't want to see. He's like, people are going to think I'm crazy. But then when he started to talk to some of his other colleagues, they had similar stories. That's something they've done. They have created conditions here where it's a satanic model. It's just the physical. It's just 3D, right? But we are multidimensional beings. And from what I can sort of remember from other parts of me, in different incarnations and different places, you come with all that Akashic record with all your memories. But here, when you come in, you get a memory wipe. This place is really stacked against us. And yet, we're so resilient. And we've done so well under very negative conditions. But that's part of the whole miseducation system. They deliberately withdraw the knowledge of who we really are. And we have all these different parts and all these different... We have beings around us. We have a higher self. There's all these layers. And they've really taken that knowledge of who we are from us. So not just there, but then they poison us. They poison the air, the food, the water. They inject poisonous things into us. They mind control. They miseducate. They use entertainment to create false realities. And then the EMF frequencies. So what I always say is, wow, they have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at us. From the minute we enter this planet, all our lives bombardment. And yet, here we are doing pretty well, really. I mean, considering. And it shows me who we really are, that they need to make such a damn effort to keep us in low consciousness, to keep us in control, to keep us sick. So what if we were healthy and whole and ourselves and integrated with not just the inner parts, but the other dimensional parts? They would stand no chance because they know it, but we don't, that we're actually way more powerful. Amen. Yeah. Amen to that. Well, I guess it's interesting then to talk about this idea of evil and even just the word satanic. I mean, we've used that term a few times, obviously because of what goes on in the world, but there's just so many people that just can't get their head around that this stuff happens. That what you shared in our first episode with you, Max, that that type of experience, you're not just like, oh, hey, I'm the only person in the world that's experienced this. I'm some rare person. This happens and it continues to happen. And it has happened for a very, very long time. And yet it seems like people, and I wonder if it's because they haven't done the necessary shadow work or maybe they're a younger soul to realize that the potential for doing horrible things can exist within themselves. And so they just don't acknowledge that. And so they can't think that that exists in the world. So I don't know, I'm just bringing up this idea of evil and the term Satan and Satanism that gets thrown out there in a lot of different realms. So if anyone or both of you want to converse on that and how that comes across to you, please do. I'll speak to this regarding, because there's this thought that if you do embodiment work and trauma work, that you're going to see the light and know everything. And what I've seen in the last few years is that's necessarily true. But what I have seen, and there's little bits, I'll talk to friends and colleagues and I'm like, did you see that show Spotlight? Did you see that show Dope Sick? Did you see, these are depictions of bad stuff. And I know Bali was not the best, but Dark Waters talking about poisoning the waters on the Eastern seaboard of the United States via DuPont. And what I have found is that there are some folks, when you bring that up, they're not mean about it, but there's almost like this mild dissociation that goes over them. And they're not combative or defensive, they kind of go quiet. Whereas when I hear this stuff, I'm like, well, let's talk about that. What happened? What did they poison the waters with? I want to know, how did they clean it up? Did anybody get any justice around that? There's something very interesting about some of us I have found can accept these wrongdoings, but it doesn't put us into victim mode. And then others, it's just too much. I don't know if the word would be cognitive dissonance, but it's like, I can't comprehend. My main piece here is it's been interesting to watch colleagues, friends, those who don't want to accept this potential evil. And this isn't like a double-blinded placebo-controlled study, it's just my observation anecdotally, is I see these people struggling, whether it's with their health, alignment, making money, finding good relationships. It's almost like by not letting this reality in, it isn't opening up the core wound that us earthlings have had here. And it's not helping the matter. I'm not being very articulate in this, but it's just this essence I've seen. And what I have seen is when people start to open up to it, even just a little bit, here's that crazy Irene with some of her stories about this thing and that thing and these pollutants. But when they start to accept it a little bit more, I actually see their health starts to get better. Their view of life starts to get better because they've let that dark piece in. I've often said we need more dark workers in the world, not just light workers, to be able to work with these dark pieces. And so that's been my experience. I have a few other things on evil, but I'd love to hear what Max has to say about people that you've seen, Max, who just can't let it in and then what occurs when they start to let it in and accept this potential reality that we have been anesthetized of our soul and birthright and our intergalactic royalty, if you will, here on earth. I'm going to start by saying, you know, it is kind of astonishing with what we're seeing out there today that I think I just saw the Eurovision thing. And then there was the, I don't know if it's the Grammys or the Golden Globe with that Sam Smith guy dressed as the devil. All the music videos, the Satanism is in our face in a way that it has never been before. I mean, every football halftime show, every music video, every award thing, every, you know, it's all satanic. I mean, they're literally wearing red and horns and fire and flames. And it's so... I don't know if anyone saw... Did you see King Charles' first painting that was unveiled yesterday? Yes. Yes. There was another part of that painting where it was two of the paintings together and right in the middle, you could see Baphomet head, right, in the blood. So that it's the symbology, the satanic symbology has always been there. It's all over the Vatican, if you have eyes to see, right. But now it's right in our face, because one of their end goals is to have a completely satanic society. And that they also want to normalize pedophilia, which you can see is happening as well. Right. So how is it that people still can't see that, you know, there is, it's stressful, it's traumatic. And so the collective dissociates and splits just the same way a person does in trauma. And then we have the satanic created new age movement, which basically says, oh, just focus on the light and the goodness there is everything's relative, moral relativism, satanic principle, okay. There is no evil, blah, blah, blah, that's convenient. That's convenient for evil, for people to believe that's not possible. And that's not the case. It's just easier to go into denial, it's stressful to know what's happening. And yes, if you have had any level of trauma yourself, and you've denied it within yourself, you haven't dealt with it, you can't see it out there, because then you'd have to see it in here, and you're not ready for that, right. So there's a lot of complex things that go on. But the fact is, evil does objectively exist. And we can't deny that or else we can't address this. Yeah. I want to bring it down a little bit to the micro, you know, Max, you know, you shared stuff on our on our episode with you. I mean, you can share whatever you want to share. But like, you know what, and then Irene, I'd love for your take as well around this, like, you know, when an individual is going through a traumatic, an experience like this, like, what is happening, you know, what is happening at the biological level? You know, when it happens continuously, and continuously, what does that do to the body? And then, unfortunately, in Max's case, you know, when she, you know, removed herself from this situation and embarked on her healing process, like, you know, Max, feel free to share again, how that was for you, or maybe who were you then what was your relationship to yourself? What was your relationship to your environment, to the people in your life? And what did you have to go through? And what did you notice in your body? I'd love to kind of like, bring it back to like, these things happen. Okay, children are raped, children are molested, adults are what's going on, you know, what does that do to an individual? And how do they reclaim these lost aspects of themselves? How do they release the stress that's stored in their body? And I just, I just want to kind of engage in a conversation around this about the reality of abuse. What does that do on a biological level? And how can, you know, a person move towards this place of, I guess, redeeming themselves in that level and healing and, and becoming more whole. I want to start out by saying it's not natural. I know that sounds weird, but nature is harmonious and in balance. And when something goes off balance, it automatically redresses. So, the human body has a mechanism for danger, you know, because things work, we're in a body, we're in a 3D world. And it's, it's the part of the brain back here, it's ironically, it's called the reptilian brain. And so, it's fight, flight, or freeze. And this mechanism is supposed to be used on occasion. So, you have a big tiger in front of you, the prefrontal cortex shuts down, because thinking is too costly, it takes too many seconds. So, you instantly react, you run like hell, or you fight. And if you can't do either of those, you freeze. And so, a child who is being abused, for example, cannot flee and cannot fight. So, they freeze, but they, and so they escape by dissociating. They often, many people who have been abused will say they've been, they were watching their body from up here as things were being done to them, right? So, if you can't get away, if you had to stay in the experience, you would die. So, the psyche is super clever and adaptive, and it splits off, so that you can endure the experience because part of you isn't there, right? And so, with trauma, it's like throwing a rock at a mirror. It shatters, you know, the mirror will break, but it'll shatter into these different filaments and fragments, and each fragment will hold a piece of the abuse. So, the whole person doesn't have to hold the whole thing. So, it spreads it out, and then parts of the person have amnesia for the trauma. Other parts of the person hold the trauma. And so, I kind of like the internal family systems model. I actually had this model in me, and then found out it was an actual, you know, therapy model. But so, like, just talking about myself, you know, as a child, I had to constantly split off what was happening. And I don't know if anyone's here is old enough to remember those library drawers that you would pull out, and they had card catalogs, right? So, it's like, okay, I'm gonna put it in that drawer, I'm gonna put it in that drawer. So, I have this internal image of all these drawers where all these things were put away, so that I could keep going, so that I could survive. So, different parts were holding different traumas, and then they get exiled from, like, the front window, as I call it. And then, it doesn't really, really work. I mean, it kind of works, but you still have the behavioral effects of it, you know? Like, you still have the anxiety, or you still behave, because the subconscious is in the body, and it drives, it's like the iceberg, the little tip is on the top of the water, and the subconscious is the big part under the water, and it still drives our behavior. And throughout life, you know, when those traumatic memories want to kind of inch up to the surface, or when you're triggered, and they do, then the system is like, oh, oh, quick, quick, put out the fire, put it back under. And so, you know, you go get drunk, or you do drugs, or you, you know, there's some mechanism where you keep pushing it down, but that's no way to live your whole life, because then you're never really living, you're always surviving, and batting away the stuff that threatens, it feels very threatening when it comes up. So, I always advocate, I mean, it's brutal to go intensely into your healing, but then you can have some measure of freedom, right? And so, Erasmus, you asked me, you know, like, how did I cope, or how was it? Well, I mean, I must be very strong, because somehow I did cope. One thing was my high intelligence, so I could look at things, and I, my mind could override the trauma, and take me, make me take a step towards something I needed. The other thing was the open spiritual connection that I had. Like, as a child, I knew very well that I had come to this place, I was talking with, you know, in my childhood, and you know, there's avatars, and they're spiritual beings, and it's the Christ being, you know, what we call Jesus was always there as talking to me and comforting me. So, having that spiritual connection, and knowing that this is a, an experience here, like having that perspective was really helpful, too. And just kind of being able to hold it somehow in my body, it's like I feel like I ate all this darkness, and I was able to digest it and hold it, and transmute it, and like to not to be gross, but like, ship out light instead, right? So, we have these capacities. And so, that's kind of a little bit what I did, but I don't want to talk for too long. I can, I can go more into, like, the things that, how it was for me as a young person till I healed, if you want, but I'll just stop here for a second. No, you can keep going, too, you know. Okay. Yeah, share whatever you, you know, you, you feel comfortable sharing. Yeah. So, one thing that happened is, and they do this in it when they do satanic ritual abuse to children, they break attachment. They know how important attachment is, and they break it for all of us to some degree in society. So, I never felt a solid foundation. So, when I got out, and I went out into the world, I both craved connection with people, because that's what we need. And yet, I was terrified of that at the same time, because every, and they do this deliberately, they give you connection, and then they smash you, and then they draw you in, and you feel okay, and then they attack you. So, they break that, they make you distrust any connection, any loving connection, right? So, I suffered from that. So, I was, I felt very alone, and I wanted to be with people, and I was, but I couldn't really, and even to this day, that's still with me to a degree where, like, I lose the connection with someone pretty quickly if I'm not in contact with them for a period of time. Like, I assume they've died, because people were killed that I bonded to, right? So, inside of me, it's like, oh, well, I guess that's gone, you know. So, that's still something that affects me today, not as much, of course. Another thing is, it's like, I just have, had always lived with this internal torment. I liken it to these little mouths with sharp teeth, like, gnawing at me from the inside all the time. So, like, I would live, I would party, I would go out, I would have relationships, I would go to, you know, university, I would work, but while I was doing these things, this internal thing was always like, you know, just, and fear, anxiety, scared that people would hate me, scared that someone would find out what happened to me and think I was a complete freak and not want to have anything to do with me. Very deep insecurity, low self-esteem, and yet, somehow, a part of me functioned so well. You know, I went out and worked in trauma, I worked in the prisons, I worked in the inner city, I ran a batterers program, I worked at crisis centers, I worked with sexually abused kids. Everywhere I worked, I would get noticed, I would get prizes, I would change the very agency for the better that I was. I had this powerful presence, and I did, I was so successful, but at the same time, I felt like a piece of shit. I'm scared to death every step of the way, and one of the body things was I could never sleep. I could not, my nervous system was so jacked up from all that trauma that I could never relax to the point where I could drift off into sleep. So, eventually, I found, you know, medical marijuana, and that helped me to bypass that and go down into a state of sleep. So, that my body was definitely affected. You know, when I would speak publicly, this has gone away. But when I began to do interviews, I would have to change my shirt afterwards. I was sweated out completely. I was trembling, but you couldn't see it on the camera, you know. I had this ability to keep my voice steady, but inside, I was just like, oh shit, you know. And I noticed in recent years that I don't, I didn't breathe. Very shallow breathing, like, you know, very difficult to breathe deeply. Very difficult to trust. So, that's some of the stuff that I have really had to deal with. And somehow, despite that, you know, I had a friend once who said I was like the Terminator. You could shoot off my leg and I would just keep walking. And there's some truth to that, you know. And slowly over time, with all the work I've done on myself, a lot of that has improved. One last thing I'll say is whenever I would travel and stay in a hotel or in someone's house or in an Airbnb, I wouldn't sleep. I would go in a full blown panic attack all night because it brought back memories of being trafficked and being in strange places and not knowing when I was going to get to go home. And I've overcome that. I can travel now and I can sleep and, you know, and I can have relationships and I'm very self-aware. So, I'm always going, okay, wait, is there a child park jumping up, you know, freaking out? Okay, let's calm that down. So, I'm at a place now where a lot of things have improved and even the things that are still there, I'm watching myself. So, I catch them and I work them through. Very incredible. You're so incredible, Max. [Speaker 2] (44:16 - 44:20) Now, a short break from the episode. [Speaker 1] (44:20 - 45:19) Hope you're getting amazing value out of this conversation. Just want to take a brief moment to highlight that anyone can join our membership community, Friends of the Truth. This is the ultimate support network for individuals on this truth-seeking path. So much of value can be had for the investment that you get. Six calls a month, diving deep into, you know, regular nervous system tune-ups, exploring Germany medicine, astrology. And each month also, we do a live members-only podcast. And it just so happens that this month at the end of May, Max Loewen is going to be joining us inside our community for a members-only interactive live podcast and Q&A. So, if you'd like to be there for that, please head to the link in the bio or check out the brief in the show notes and you can join Friends of the Truth on either a basic membership or a premium membership. So, there's tiers there for everyone to jump in and get access to life-changing knowledge and calls to really support you on this journey. [Speaker 2] (45:20 - 45:21) Back to the episode. [Speaker 1] (45:22 - 56:52) Irene, what's your response hearing Max's journey? Just for me, I'm so personally blown away how someone can be so resilient and overcome so much and then appear in front of me so grounded and normal and rational, et cetera. I'm curious what comes up for you as you hear Max's healing journey? Well, I think, Max, you hit the nail on the head. You fight, flight, freeze, the breaking of attachment, the dissociation, the body responses, the sweating. I mean, these are all classic for someone who has been in some form of usually chronic unsafety. And so, it could be what you experienced. It could be an infant who had to have multiple surgeries because of a tumor on their spine and they had to go in over and over again to be treated with these scary monsters with masks on their face and things being stuck into them. And I always think of medical trauma as one trauma that people overlook as actually really, really devastating to the system, especially pre-verbally when you don't make sense of it and you don't have a parent, a healthy attachment figure telling you, okay, we're going to go do this and it's going to hurt a little bit, but mommy's here. Like so much of these things that occur to infants in service of helping them and keeping them alive can create massive complex PTSD later in life because of the violation, even though it was to help them. Tubes are being stuck everywhere. That's violating the body. So, I've seen and worked with people where they're like, I don't know why I'm so afraid of being in enclosed spaces, why I'm afraid of going to the doctor. I mean, that's a given, but it's a routine thing. Like maybe you broke your arm and you have to go to the ER and all of a sudden panic sets in the moment you walk in. Why is that? The one thing that really stood out when you mentioned breaking of attachment, Max, there's a story that I speak of. Have you guys heard of my story of Ryan? I have a vlog about it. Does that ring a bell? This is a great story to parallel how important attachment is. So, Bruce Perry, who's a medical doctor and psychiatrist, he was, speaking of cults, he was like the doctor that came in, childhood psychiatrist after say the Waco, Texas disaster and all these kids are without parents because they all shot each other and you've got all these kids and he's gone in to help the authorities be like, what do we do with these children that have been brainwashed and abused and all this stuff? He wrote that book, The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog. That's one of his books. Yeah. And then the other book that I'm going to reference is called Born for Love. I think the subtitle is Why Empathy is Essential and Endangered. Bit of a shocking title, but that's the title. But in that book, he talks about this young man whom he was brought in by the authorities because these people are like, this kid just raped a disabled, mentally unwell girl at the prom and there was no sign that he was a troublemaker. And so what had occurred was it was prom, so senior year, and he asked this girl to prom who was, I can't remember what it was, but back in the day we would call it mentally retarded. She wasn't well in that respect. And she thought it was great, went to prom with him, party after prom, they're at someone's house and he rapes her on the pool table in front of all the friends. And of course this got put to the authorities because they're like, whoa, what's this dude? So Bruce comes in to figure this out. And of course he interviews the parents and they were the wealthiest family in this town. And the mother was not experienced with children. He found out, not that that means that this would happen, but she was so busy with her philanthropy that the baby had a nanny. But what happened was baby would have nanny, mom would come home and after a couple of weeks, the baby didn't want to go to mom. The baby wanted to stay with the nanny because the baby was attached to the nanny. So because this mother is no doubt in her own dysregulation, her own trauma and her own immaturity, didn't like that. So what does she do? She fires the nanny. She hired over the course of I think 18 months, 13 nannies. This kid basically, so to go back to the fight, flight, freeze, crying baby wants its attachment figure, which is nanny. Nanny gets taken away. After enough of those, you are going to start to not only go into freeze, you are going to go into shutdown, which is the end of that spectrum and then collapse. And we know when babies are not properly connected to, they can die. This happens in orphanages. And so this occurred. And then when they looked back into the history of this kid, he did get into trouble, but he always found a way to cover it up because he wasn't stupid. He was smart. He was straight A student on all the teams, very physically fit, but he had no connection. He had no empathy. And so when they were interviewing him, his words were, well, I did her a favor because she was never going to have sex anyway. Right. And so that's horrific. And you can trace that back to what occurred to him when he was an infant. I've always wondered what occurred to him because as you had said, Max, what I really, what I picked out is you always had that spiritual connection. So even if we have upbringings that are pretty bad, if there's at least one attachment, even to a resource like God or spirit or Christ consciousness, it tethers us to goodness. But from the sounds of it, this kiddo didn't have any of that because he was probably in a home where there was no spirit, no connection because these parents were off doing their things all day long, probably at the country club and never even attaching to him. So, you know, people often ask Irene, why do people do these bad things? It's like, well, there's one example of just things going really wrong. And it's actually pretty darn common, these things, right. And then to go back, one thing that I think is important when we're healing is not only working with the psyche and the emotions, but working with what we would call the stored survival stress. So that is, as we said, if you can't fight and you can't flee, you freeze, but under that freeze, that survival stress of fight and flight is still living in the system. And so this would be, to use Peter Levine's terms, where we have to complete the traumatic procedural memory that's written in the body that wants to fight, that wants to break free, that wants to run. The conundrum though, is when that trauma was pre-verbal before a baby has the faculty to run or to fight. And then of course, that's where you have to do deeper cellular work at the stress organ level, literally talking to the organs, to the layers of the body saying, what might it be like to not be always braced? Or as Max, you said, always be held in the respiration. And it's sometimes it's too much just as someone just take a deep breath. If you say, this is where breath works can become a little problematic when there's a lot of deep, early trauma, you can tell someone to take a breath to the cows come home. But if the internal physiology and that autonomic nervous system is saying, hell no, we're not taking a deep breath because we're still waiting for something bad to happen. You got to kind of micromanage that part of the nervous system along with, okay, we need to build a little capacity, that word titration. We got to just put a little bit of opening, but no, you don't have to do a 30 minute breath session because that isn't going to break down these walls that have been built up for many of us decades. And sometimes before we were even born, this stuff can occur, obviously, as we know before we're born. So those are the two pieces I wanted to put in there or three. When you were talking about the pre-verbal, Irene, when I was doing my healing work, there were several things. I had a therapist. And for me, the most significant part of that was to have attachment, was to build that foundational attachment. And I would have memories of being a baby of being pre-verbal. And it's really interesting. I learned to identify when I was basically in a baby part, because my brain was fuzzy. My words weren't coming out. I couldn't really speak. I was actually uncoordinated. My body felt floppy. And I remember once being in that state, not yet having learned that I needed to kind of sit with that and heal that, I went out into the world to do an errand. I had to get some reading glasses and I went to a place and I ended up leaving spending a ton more money than I wanted to. And when I got home, I was pissed. And then I realized, uh-oh, but I went out as a baby into the world. So of course, I got screwed. Of course, I got taken advantage of. Sometimes it's really subtle, but I learned at that point. And even today, if I'm sort of in a baby part, it's like, oh, I must be in a baby part. I can't talk. My mind is fuzzy. My body is weird and sloppy. And then when I released some of that baby stuff and I would cry, it's crazy, but I would cry like an infant. It wasn't like a normal cry. It was like that, you know, like babies do. It's just what came out. So yeah, I just resonated with that and just wanted to throw that out there. No, I appreciate you sharing that. I actually have one other story. You go ahead. Well, I was just going to say like, I love what you started with where, you know, just by deciding and choosing to work with someone that you felt connected to that you kind of rebuilt some of that attachment because I mean, so much of our trauma happens in relationship. [Speaker 2] (56:53 - 56:53) Yes. [Speaker 1] (56:53 - 57:08) You know, and so like, sure, there's some work we can do on our own, but to be able to work in partnership with someone who, you know, understands physiology and is safe, like there's such deep healing that happens through that process. [Speaker 2] (57:09 - 57:10) Yep. [Speaker 1] (57:10 - 1:02:42) And I also really quickly wanted to say your story brought up when I was getting deeper into body work and some of the work Sophie and I, you know, we're trained in. I remember being put in a certain position that was impacting like the kidney meridian and that has a lot to do with fear. And I remember kind of just this part of me came forward that I was, that I embodied was like the part of me when I was really, really scared of the dark. Like, and like, first of all, I was shivering like crazy, but as I was talking, I was like talking like I was, you know, six years old, five years old, you know, so this is, it's a reality, you know, we, as the great Walt Whitman would say, we contain multitudes, we have all these different aspects of us. And so, like you said, having that self-awareness of like, what's happening internally on a psyche level and, you know, these different parts of us move differently, talk differently, feel differently, you know, it's just aids our self-awareness as we're going out in the day, if we're interacting with someone, like just knowing what these parts of us are like and how they behave in the world and move in the world. And I just, you know, I love this work. I love kind of getting to know this universe within and this orchestra of potential that exists within us. So, yeah, I wanted to highlight that story from my youth too, because it was so trippy when I experienced that. Yeah. I want to just jump in with one more thought, you know, I've read Peter Levine's work and you mentioned it, Irene, and it's that concept, you know, it stuck with me, that example where the gazelle escapes the lion and then it just shakes and shakes and shakes, and then its system reboots and it's okay, right? So, there is this thing about complete, the body can't, so I was, you know, when I was being sexually abused, my body couldn't fight, you know, and at some point during my therapy, this rage opened up, I mean, huge rage. So, I had some, you know, lucid moment and I went and I started boxing, and then it became kickboxing. And as I punched and punched and punched, I became aware that my body was finally getting to fight in the way that it never did, and it was tremendously healed. Yeah, that's very important what you said there, because I know a lot of people who will go and do things like boxing and martial arts, but they don't connect it to their internal sensory fight flight response. So, I often say to my students, you can go and hit that pillow till it's, you know, destroyed. But if you're not connecting it with, it doesn't have to be a memory, because sometimes we don't have the memories, but just this feeling like I am protecting myself, I am exerting my life force energy and my power and my vitality, which is our birthright, that then fuses, I think, and makes the healing happen. But I also know a lot of folks who will go and do these movements, but they don't connect it into their internal core, and that's the juice. You got to make those connections. One thing I'd forgotten about this story, this was years ago. I'm also a Feldenkrais practitioner, so I teach a lot of developmental movement, motor movement, lots of infant development movement, crawling, rolling. And I had a message from a woman who found me online, and this was a long time ago before I was online the way I am now, and she was absolutely in terror, terror, in her apartment in New York City, because she had gone to a Feldenkrais class in New York, and the teacher was doing, as we do in a lot of these classes, a lot of baby rolling movements. A lot of slow, gentle, bringing the hands to the mouth, the hands to the feet. And she had a massive flashback, and she even said this, to being abused in a satanic cult. And I was like, oh, okay. I said, yep, that could happen. And I think she just was so relieved that I didn't dismiss it, because when that occurred in the class, she didn't know what the heck to do. She tried to talk to the teacher. The teacher dismissed it, and all he said to her was just go slower. And so this is where, yeah, in some mind-body work, you might want to slow it down, but in this situation, she needed to get up and run. And so what she did is she persisted and stayed in the class, because she didn't feel comfortable exiting, which would have been the thing to do. If she had left, that would have helped her complete that flea response, but she didn't want to look like a nuisance. She paid for the class, and the teacher didn't really support this. Sadly, I never heard from her again, so I don't know what occurred. But I say that because if there's other practitioners listening to this, if you are working with neurological movement, mind-body movement, meditation, trauma, you have to be open to hearing these stories from your clients. And even if you don't want to believe them, just like a parent saying, no, no, no, Yerasimos, the dark is not scary. Grow up. Be a big, strong boy. [Speaker 2] (1:02:42 - 1:02:43) Yeah, Yerasimos. [Speaker 1] (1:02:45 - 1:28:06) It's like, wow, the dark. Tell me what you notice. What's going on? What do you need to make yourself feel better? I need my blanket. I need the lights on. What do you need? Just like monsters under the bed. For some kids, that is a real monster, for real, because these entities can come and visit us. We know that. The hay, all these things. But that poor woman, and I just thought to myself, God damn it, colleagues, listen to what your people are saying. Don't gaslight them. Back then, the term gaslighting really wasn't used very much because this was about 10 years ago that I got this phone call. But I've always thought about that whenever I'm teaching Feldenkrais. And I never say you must go slower. Listen to your body. If it needs to get up in the middle of a lesson, get up. If you feel the need to stomp your feet when it's supposed to be quiet, let that happen. Yeah. Well, you bring up something that's really important in general to talk about is that the practitioner needs to stay on their work. They need to do so much shadow work. They need to get in touch with as many parts as they can because you don't know what's going to be in front of you. If someone tells a story that you completely repress within, they're tapping into some part that you repress or you judge, it's going to be difficult to help that person because energetically, you're maybe going to pull away or you may have a judgment or you may say something. And that's why I love the parts work that I did early on in my life through my acting career. My teacher was heavily influenced by these two psychologists that had their own body of work. And, you know, I love that process because it's like when you go out in the world and people share things or you see things, you can go, oh, OK, I know that part of me. Like I can feel into that part. I can tune into as opposed to like maybe completely check out or dissociate or or get into this place of judgment and no longer be a safe space for this person that needs you to be this space, this of safety as they go through this process. Yeah, 100 percent. And every every every therapist, every healer, the primary requirement should be you've got to do your own work first. Yeah. Because where you have blind spots, you're right. You're awesome. So you won't see that thing in another person. So, you know, education is great, but you really have to experientially deal with your stuff and know what it feels like to deal to be dealing to be the client. You have to be in that position before you can really help people. But yeah, you got to know yourself. Yeah. And this is the shortcomings of like, you know, let's say more conventional psychotherapy or therapy is that like, you know, you go through this process, you go through education, read all the books, you learn all the case studies, you know, but like how much embodiment work and how much experience, experiential work are you doing when you're faced with this kind of thing? So I'm not saying there isn't benefit to that work, but I just I think it goes to a certain level. And I think many people just go, OK, I got my degree. I'm good. Let me just have my 30, 40 year career as a psychotherapist. And that's that. I think to, you know, to give a little benefit to the doubt of the doubt is also if you don't know what to do when someone brings something to you, say that. Yeah. It's like, yes, like, you know, there's no shame in that. If anything, your client will feel safer with you because you just admitted, God, wow, that's a story that really impacted me. As opposed to holding it in, going into your own survival strategy because they're going to feel that you're doing some kind of jobby on the inside to not relate to their story. But just be like that. I wasn't expecting you were going to say that. And it might, you know, at that point, again, this is beyond my scope. I would love to continue to work with you on this bodywork piece or whatever, but let's help like I'm willing to help you find someone who could work at this level, because the moment you shut it down, you're dismissing their experience. It comes back to relationally to how mothers and fathers are with their kids. It's like this ability to just believe them. And we won't have all the answers, but like, let's figure that out. I don't know the answer to that question. And then that teaches them, ah, they're willing to be in relationship with me. And when we've had these attachment wounds, that's sometimes all we need is like, okay, this person is willing to stay in conversation with me and they're not going into their own patterns of survival. Yeah. Thanks for highlighting that. You hit the nail on the head there. It's the, it's the pretending that like, oh, I have all the answers and I know everything. Yeah. But like to be able to kind of be humble in the moment and to live in that place and to be able to hold space for, I don't know, I'm uncertain instead of this, like, no, I know. And I'm certain whatever, whatever way that shows up. And one more thing there. I mean, this is rampant in the healing mind, body, trauma, somatic nervous system world, because it's the wild west. If you were to go to an orthopedic surgeon and they realize that actually you have a brain aneurysm, I mean, oh, don't worry. Well, I'll fix it today. Let's do that. Let's book you in. I only know how to fix broken bones, but I'm going to do some brain surgery. Like it would never happen in other professions, right? Same with law, you know? And so what's occurring in our, in this healing mind, body world is a lot of recklessness and not realizing that it's okay if you can't do it all. Like this is someone else's specialty. Yeah. I don't think enough credit is given to what people sense on a subtle energetic level in terms of whether we're truly responding in truth or not. And I think more and more, I'm seeing it like it's becoming more prevalent and people are becoming more in touch with those energetic truths. When someone responds to them from a place that is even on the most minuscule level out of integrity, you know, that is sensed. I see it happening more. Maybe not enough, but it's starting to happen. You know, there's still a lot of bad healing going on out there, which I think all of us know. And I think these conversations are important because it just pushes the envelope to just be a bit more real and it's messy. You know, it can be really messy, this journey of figuring out these traumas that we just don't have a blueprint for. You know, they've been around for a long time, but working with them at the level that we are working, the way you've worked, Max, with these things, it's very new in our current paradigm of humanity where we have the medicalization of births and we live in these boxes and all the poisons that, you know, it's a very new situation we're in. It's not just go out into the woods and find your shaman and they'll heal you. We've got to deal with all these other pieces. So, it's tricky right now. And Joel, what you said is 100% right on. Everything is energy. Matter is just a certain speed of energy and it looks solid, but it actually isn't. So, that's why when they broke down the atom and they broke down the subparts, they can never find the smallest unit of matter because that doesn't exist. It's all energy, right? So, we're all energetic billboards. So, wherever you go, there's a flashing in all your experiences, your name, your, you know, every part of all your Akashic stuff, like everything that you are is so out there. It's just that we've been dumbed down to the point that we do subconsciously pick it up, but we've been dumbed down so that we don't consciously see that. And how many times have people said, like, oh, you know, they got into a tricky or a bad situation and they were like, oh, but I knew that about the person, but I just didn't listen. So, it's learning to go back to and trust we're naturally telepathic, we're naturally self-healing, we're naturally set up to go back to balance if that's, you know, permitted or allowed. So, I think that's a huge and major point you made Joel. It boils back down to that we're all energetic beings and, you know, that's a significant thing for people to know and the Satanists don't want us to know that. Yeah. I mean, this intuitive piece is so huge because like on some level, I truly believe that we always know what's right for us. We get hints and we get senses of what the correct thing is. Like, I've worked with multiple people who've given me stories of, you know, say their marriage has ended 10, 15 years down the road, but they have vivid memories of intuitive senses at the time of them signing their marriage certificate of like, oh, something doesn't feel right here, you know, something isn't correct. And this, I mean, this is just coming into the fray in a much, much bigger way. You know, I think as we go forward, you know, I think the intuitive piece is going to become more and more prevalent. And I personally, in my experiences, I do see people getting far more in touch with trusting their intuitive senses in this way too. Yeah. I mean, I talk about this all the time, even around human design, you know, that system of self-knowledge and understanding your personal inner authority and like tuning into that. And obviously there's a level, I think, of trauma work that needs to be done to kind of clear out the channels, you know, so you can connect to it more. But there is a hit, there is a knowing that very often people get where it's like, okay, I'm not going to go on a date with that person, or I'm not going to marry that person, or I'm not going to move, or I'm not going to take that job. But then what happens is, you know, there's a lot of distortion and conditioning that comes in and impacts our thinking and our behavior. And then it's like, we lose sight of that whisper, that deep knowing of like, what is right for us, you know? And not to say, you know, at some point later on they realize the lesson, but, you know, we're going to suffer as human beings, but maybe we can just suffer a little less. Maybe we don't have to have as much of the suffering that we experience in our life, you know, as we build a deeper connection to these more intuitive faculties. Yeah. And it kind of harkens back to what Max mentioned early on, like one of the, you know, primary motivations of, I guess, this Satanist agenda is to condition us to only perceive everything as extremely left-brained, you know, extremely material, extremely rational, and disconnect us from those, you know, extraneous senses that we all do truly have access to. And I think when we open that up and we connect the right brain and we bring back in intuition, empathy, imagination, creativity, like that's when you truly create a foundation and a container for real healing to take place, you know? And I think that's kind of what you've done on your journey, Max, in many ways. Yeah. And this is why the nervous system piece, obviously, what both, I think all of us are involved to some degree, but obviously, you know, this is your life's work, Irene, and this is the work that you do, Max, is that like, you know, can you build capacity within yourself, you know, can you discharge a lot of stress? Because I think it's going to be a lot harder to decipher, you know, what is this intuitive hit if you're living in sympathetic all the time, if you're shut down, it's a little bit more challenging, I think, to tune into that connection. And so, I think this work that we talk about is so foundational. It's very hard to make that connection. Yeah. And Joel, I just wanted to say something about what you said, Joel, you know, the Satanists, the people, the global cult that run this planet, see, they have severed themselves from that life force, from that energy, right? So, everything that they've created in this reality, they've actually created through us. That's why they heavily manipulate and mind control us. So, it's both the good news and the bad news. They've used us to create this hell on earth reality, right? That's the bad news. But the good news is, they've used us. That means we can change this into a heaven on earth reality. They can't organically create, they've severed that part of themselves, you know, and they, I have seen these rituals beneath the Vatican, where they sacrifice children in the most brutal way. And they literally do bring in demonic entities into this dimension through portals, but also into their own bodies. So, they're willing to take these lower astral entities into their body. And in doing so, they sever that connection. So, like in the movie, The Matrix, and all movies are disclosure of what they're doing. You know, Morpheus says to Neo, we're batteries. Yes, they have to use our energy. Okay, so that's, and they have. And so, it makes it kind of positive in the sense that when we stop consenting, complying, when we wake up, you know, yeah, it's a little traumatic, and it takes more effort than to do nothing, right? But we can win this, we can change this reality, because it's actually through our energy that all this is being executed. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, that's the truism that comes with we make the world in our image, right? Like, they've attempted to create the world in their image. And mainstream society is basically the collective living within the psychopath's mind, right? What the psychopath has created. But as we begin to exit this game and individuate and walk on our own terms, we have the opportunity then to create, to bring down heaven on earth, and create our personal realities based on, you know, the beautiful image, which we've, you know, reimagined within and reconnected with. And I think this is this is the process of healing and us rising out of this system, this big system. Irene, I know you're I thought you were going to jump in before Max talked about what started talking. I don't know if you had anything in particular to say or not. I'm just soaking it all in. I mean, I'm, I'm blessed that I am immersed in a lot of positive stories every day, because I'm teaching my students and seeing how they are realizing they're not just their potential, but who they really are, biologically, and what occurs as they bring this on. And one thing I haven't mentioned, and I will mention is our intuition is, it is in our biology, it's in our organs. It's in our, it's in our blood and our marrow and these, these, these juicy parts of us. And when we are in trauma, when we have this freeze shutdown, we can't feel that stuff. And so what I have seen is just this very diverse sharing over the years of my thousands of people. It's like, wow, I'm like, I think I'm getting psychic. It's like, well, you already were psychic. You're just reclaiming it because it has been, I like to use the word anesthetized out of you. It's still there. It's just asleep. Or, you know, wow, I'm like able to know exactly when to slow down my car. This is actually a great story. One of my senior students, she's in Switzerland, horrific abuse she grew up with pre-verbally and so much work on herself. And she was driving on this road in Switzerland and something told her to stop her car. And she stopped her car and a house fell right in front of her on the road. So they were transporting this house across the road with a big crane. And the guy that was supposed to be there with the stop sign had gone into the bushes to take a pee. And so he had left the road for a few minutes and she for whatever reason, she's like, I have to stop. Something's telling me to stop. If she had not stopped, she would have been crushed by this house. And I just, I love that story. And I keep hearing stories like this. It's like, listen to that hit inside of you that says, stop or go or take this other route or don't eat that food or don't pick up the phone or pick up the phone or do the thing that's fun. Right? So I just, I hear these stories and I'm like, I feel that we are winning. It's just, it's hard to see it when it hasn't, you know, gone global, but it's happening in lots, all the countries I've seen in little bits, little bits. That's kind of what you're talking about is being in touch with that multidimensional part of ourselves. Right. So we all have, it's kind of, I've had this in moments, you know, it's, it's sort of been visible to me where there are these, there are these beings, you know, and, and, and I suddenly, it's a very clear moment where I can communicate. And it's like, and what they said to me is, you know, we're your group, but you were the one brave enough to go down there. So we're around you and, and they are always there to guide us. Yeah. So it's like, and you can consider that a part of yourself, you know, or you can visualize it as guides. It doesn't really matter, but it's like, if you listen, if you're connected, God, life is a little easier because you will be like, don't walk down that road right now or whatever. Right. But we're, again, they've disconnected us from that. So we're like, if this is a game, when we have like our arms tied behind our back, a blindfold on, lead shoes, it's like, oh my God, you know? So yeah. Yeah. We have to get to this place too, where we really trust ourselves, you know, truly, deeply trust our bodies, you know, that are going to give us that, that wisdom to know in the moment, to make a left turn or a right turn, you know, because a lot of times people get that hits, but get the hit, but there's so much extra noise that's coming up, you know, in the mind space. And so they don't listen to it. They don't trust it, you know? And so, you know, it's a, it's a process that I found in my life. But I think once you get to a place where you kind of, you know, on two feet, you feel grounded, you feel connected to yourself. And then those, those hits come and you go, okay, cool. This is how I'm going to roll. Yeah. To me, like, you know, if earth, we can use the analogy of a school, you know, like we've been given like the difficult conditions, because I think the very purpose is for us to know that again, and to remember that. And so for us to gain even greater refined access to these faculties in such extreme conditions, you know, to hear even with all the noise, still be able to hear and still be able to be connected. And sometimes, and there's moments sometimes where you can't hear, right? Where you're in distress, you're in some kind of response, you know, I mean, that's happened to me. And, and I'm really negative. And I'm feeling like everything's terrible. And then I have, I snap into awareness. Oh, okay. I'm in a child part. I'm, this is an experience, but it's not all of my experience. And so sometimes when I'm down in that child part, I'm not going to be able to connect. It's, it's, it's inaccessible to me. So what I do is I dive deeper into the child part. I'm like, all right, let me go in here. And let me feel what it takes courage, but you kind of have to feel what's there. You have to work with that part and say, you know, become a parent to yourself to that part of yourself, and just go through and release that angst or those thoughts or those emotions, and then get yourself back into a higher frequency. So yeah, sometimes we can't connect. It's not, you know, sometimes there's perception like, oh, you're, you're some guru. So you're always like, you know, no, we, we, we fluctuate, you know, and that's okay. But when we're going down, we need to heal something. Right. Yeah. But, but part of the part of the connection too, is knowing that you're in a place like that and where you don't need to, let's say, make a decision about something important, because you're like, hey, listen, I'm in this part right now, or I'm feeling a little blue or feeling unclear or heavy. I'm not going to answer you right now, whether or not I want to accept this job or go on this trip or whatever the case may be. And so there is a level of connection there because you have the self-awareness to know, hey, now's not the time to maybe explore this other thing, because I need to handle what's present right now in the moment and spend some time and maybe go in my room, put on some music, shed some tears, be with myself, you know, not go out and be social and try to distract whatever's present away. Yep. Some say that Earth is the one planet where we have free will. And so this is this ability to have the free will to choose. I'm not going to do these things. I'm going to feel these things, but you have to understand that you have that free will. And a lot of people, you know, there's some, I haven't read his recent book because I don't agree completely with his theories, but Robert Sapolsky was someone, maybe he's changed his mind, I don't know, but he doesn't believe that humans have free will. And I'm like, yeah, okay, buddy, you're a little too much stuck in your lab there. Of course, we have free will, but it's very difficult to have it when we're stuck in our survival patterns. You know, so I don't know if he's changed his tune on that, but that's what he used to say. Yeah, I mean, I used to be like, oh, yeah, we have free will, like 100%. But I feel like there's like a caveat to that. There's just like, okay, but if we're completely programmed, if we don't see the, if we can't stand between the tension of opposites within ourselves, if we're stuck in survival mode, do we really have free will? You know what I mean? Like, yes, perhaps, but I think we gotta work for it. Yeah, I think we have to work for it. I don't think it's just like, okay, you have it, you're human, you got it. It's also a continuum, you know, like there's a spectrum of free will and people have different access to free will. I think about the Viktor Frenkel quote, you know, between stimulus and response is freedom. And the greater that space is, the greater free will an individual ultimately has between, you know, having that stimulus and then choosing to respond. And even this whole concept of parts work, right? The more parts that we have access to, the more of the orchestra we've lit up, the greater free will we have to make various choices, where if some people are so rigid and only have access to a very rigid and limited constellation of parts, their ability to choose is hampered by that. 100%. We have, it is very nuanced. It's not just like, oh, we have free will or, oh, we don't. But in moments, we have choices, right? So, one of the reasons the satanic system has enroached on us the way that it has is because we, in our free will, have not made the moral choice, you know? We've made, you know, somebody gets bribed to do something bad and they take that money or they take that power or that fame and they do the thing, you know? So, you see some, you know, some police officers who will harm their fellow humans because of whatever, you know? So, in every moment, we have a choice to make where there is free will, where we can be moral about something and say no and say something and speak out when there's a situation that's not okay. You know, just like classic, you know, there's some kids and they're bullying another kid and no one in that group of kids has the morality and the free will choice in that moment to say, no, this is wrong, right? So, we let a lot of these things happen. And I think, and Mark Passio says this, that slavery and morality have this relationship that the less moral we are, the more enslaved we're going to be. And I kind of agree with that. [Speaker 2] (1:28:07 - 1:28:08) I do too. [Speaker 1] (1:28:09 - 1:40:32) Yeah, me too. All right, guys, getting close to the end of our time together. Just curious if there's anything pressing that we didn't tap on that's coming up for either of you guys that you want to address before we wrap this one up? I'll say one thing and this has nothing to do with what we've talked about yet. But one thing that I'm seeing in the circles I'm in is there are many people starting to realize the importance of being in nature and not just being in nature for the sake of being in nature, but getting under the sun, getting your feet on the earth, breathing, knowing, wow, this is oxygen that we all share. And I have found in the last few years that those colleagues of mine, because I've kind of gotten immersed in that circadian biology world, they are some of the most awake and with it people. And as I talked to some of my more intergalactic mentors, one of the things they say to stay tethered to goodness and not let these things come into you is to gaze at the sun, to be with that energy source that gives us life. And there's something about this thing that's becoming more popular, popular, that gives me even more hope when I see my nervous system work, the work you're doing, Max, the work you guys are doing. And then this circadian biology piece, because that is like where it all comes back to, is this source that gives us energy and grounds us to earth. So, that's sort of what I wanted to end with, because I'm always connecting to that now as my source, as my spirit. Yeah. Thank you. I love that. We just did an episode with David Whitehead exploring some of the symbology and some of the metaphors within the Bible. And he's done tons of his own premium presentations on decoding the Bible in terms of that, in terms of the light and what it really means and how it connects to us. But yeah, it made me think of that. So, yeah, connecting to the sun is extremely powerful and something that I'm feeling the call more so. I used to do it a lot more, getting up for sunrises, sunsets and being outdoors. And so, what that does to my system, when I'm consciously doing it, I'm not just like, okay, let's go for a hike, everybody. We're going to be in nature. We're hiking. It's more just like this intentional and very often solitary relationship where we go out in nature and convene with nature. And very often with no agenda too. We're just there and we're tuning into our senses. Do we have that capacity? Maybe if I put all my attention on my hearing, what am I noticing? That's the key. Attention on my touch, what am I noticing? If I put all attention on just my, if I orient, if I'm orienting out in nature, what comes to me? Yeah, that's the key. It's an intentional relationship with what it is. And it's like, we talk about relationship with other human beings, but we can have a relationship with inanimate objects and it be extremely profound experiences. Yes, nature. Yes, the sun. Yes, of course. But even with like any object that is near and dear, you can develop relationship with and feel something with. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to say, it's been an honor to meet you, Max, and have this space with these two good guys. So lovely to have this discussion and talk about things that I normally don't talk about on other shows. So this has been so easy and good. It's been very nurturing. Thank you. It's been great to meet you too. And it's always, I just always feel so good when I'm around Joel and Eurasmus, they're just, you know, in this culture where they're trying to destroy masculinity and men, you know, here's two examples of what to model, what to role model yourself on, you know? And with the sun, you know, it's just one thing. Literally, if you're not sure what to do, do the opposite of what they tell you. So they tell you the sun, don't be in the sun, be in the sun that, you know, so they've inverted everything, you know, and while for example, technology is facilitating this conversation, we also need to get our faces on screens and get outside and reconnect because we are part of the natural world, right? But they want to make us transhuman. They want to take us completely out of that to control us and to make us a different, they literally, you know, want to re-engineer the human species to be something else. So, so no, we're not going to do that, you know? And these are crazy, crazy times. Every time you look out there and see crazier narratives and like, you know, chaos and all this, you know, the unnatural weather events and all this stuff going on. And people say like, okay, what can I do? What can I do to change the world? Well, you can start changing yourself, take responsibility for you, do your shadow work. They call it shadow work because it's, you know, it's not always so nice. You look at yourself and there's some unsavory parts and well, you know, do it, take a look at yourself and then integrate all your associated parts. Then when you do that, you can then integrate yourself with other people on the planet so we can collectively integrate. Then you can integrate with the spirit side of us, right? With the planet. So, start here and then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And at some point, you know, if we do that, I mean, look again at how many resources, effort and time they have put into fragmenting us internally from each other, all the divide and conquer programs out there. Well, there's a reason for that. So, we need to put ourselves together, start there. Then we collectively as a humanity come together, we reconnect with the planet, we reconnect with spirit and that's how we change the world. And it's absolutely doable and we have a huge, it's like there's a wave right now and we can surf that wave right into that change if we start and if we do it. So, that would be my final message. Well said. Such a gift to share the space with both of you. Thank you, you too. Totally. Yeah, Max, I think we're doing it. I think it's happening. I've felt it for a long time and, you know, the process continues, you know, whether people like it or not, there's, you know, there's a force that, you know, is not going to be stopped at this point. And yeah, I completely echo what Yerasmov said, such an honor and a privilege, like having this unique conversation and to share this space. There's so much love for both of you, both incredible gifts and bright lights to this world and to this planet and to all of us. So, it's a deep, deep thank you for what you do and who you are. Yeah. Yeah. And do you want to just, I guess, I think our audience probably knows already, but if you want to let them know where to find you and how they can support you. So, my website is unbroken.global. And I have membership options, which help support me. And we do monthly Zooms and we're building, it's pretty recent, but we're building a really great community. I have a lot of interviews there where I expose the truth. I talk about healing, you know, I interview teachers, so all of it just to bring a lot of information in. And there's a page on there about my services. So, you know, I do help people individually. I, pretty much my clients are all SRA survivors. And I'm putting together a class on trauma and recovery. So, just stay tuned for that. Thanks, Max. And for me, it's just my name, IreneLyon.com. Everything's there. You can get lost on that site with all the things. So, let people go and find what they to find on that site. Trust your intuition and go on your own journey and press whatever button feels good. That's it. All right, guys. Thanks again, everyone else. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Oh, your ass must get in the dark, huh? I was, I was. It's actually interesting. I don't really like, I just remember that experience happening when I was doing this particular body work. But I can't then remember like the time of my life where that was a thing. It might've been like a short-term thing. But anyways, I know you're just messing with me. But again, it's like, I love that Max is into parts work. And I know we're going to have a more focused episode in the future with someone around IFS and nervous system work. But it really helps create the context of self-understanding, you know, and realizing that we do contain these multitudes. But, you know, I thought it was a really important conversation. I'm so happy that Irene listened to our initial interview with Max, because again, those first 40 minutes of Max sharing her story to most people, you know, I think it would be, I think it's just like, what the fuck, you know, like this, all this stuff happened to this person. But it was good to really explore things on a macro level. And then also at the micro level of like, you know, what goes on at the nervous system level when a child, when a person experiences this level of trauma. I mean, it's real, man, it's real. And, you know, if you're listening, you're listening to a podcast called Here for the Truth, you know, so I'm not shying away from what's real. And one thing that we do know about the shadow, at least on an individual level, is that, you know, when it's integrated and when it's embraced, there's so much life force and so much energy that's freed there as well. And what applies in the micro applies in the macro. So I think as a collective, as this topic, and this darkness comes more into the light, the light of consciousness that is and comes more into the fray, then I think that even there's like collective evolution that to be taken place as a result of that as well. And for me, I'm just stoked to be able to have this conversation and play a part in that. I think it's super important. I think what we had is a one of a kind conversation. I can't picture that conversation have been had yet previously. And yeah, it's just so powerful, so important. And let's keep it going. Yeah. And I just want to reiterate to anyone that's still listening at this point. Keep that curiosity open. You know, when you hear conversations like this, when you come across other people, you know, in your life or other interviews or people are talking about these things that have happened, you know, like what's happening to you, you know, on a nervous system level, what's happening in your body, what are you noticing? And I just think, you know, we can really find growth points everywhere, depending on how we relate to the situations and the circumstances that we find ourselves in. So thank you for, you know, supporting us. Thank you for listening to our podcast. Thank you for going on this journey with us and, and being, you know, you know, intrepid explorers of the truth in your own way and willing to kind of, again, grapple with these ideas and navigate into territory that may be more unfamiliar to you. So we just appreciate you. And yeah, it's this life, this, this journey of life is pretty wild. But yeah, I'm grateful to be on it. Totally. And just in closing, if you're curious or interested in going on your own nervous system healing journey or exploration in the brief of all our episodes, you have access, you can gain access to Irene's 21 day tune up, which is an amazing introduction to nervous system work. Or if you're watching this on our website, it's on the brief in the sidebar where you're watching right now. And I think it's really important for each of us to go through this exploration personally as well on a personal level, to build capacity, build regulation, and just to become more whole human beings in general. And other than that, guys, thanks for being here. We'll see you next time.