Bernhard Guenther The Great Work Continues

[Speaker 1] (0:00 - 9:48) Welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. I am Joel Rafiti. I've got my co-host Jurasmus with me as always. Today, we have an incredible conversation with our friend Bernard Guenther, who's been on twice previously. We get into an overview of terms of where we're at individually as a collective. We discuss this whole new iteration of black pill community within the truth-seeking community and how collectivism operates on that nature. What is the ego, the ego structure? What is the true self? What is true reality creation? We touch and dialogue on a number of really, really powerful and important topics here. I think you guys are really, really going to enjoy this one. If you love what we do, if we love what we're about, if you're seeking a community that gets it, is more aligned and also honors the individual uniqueness, and if you're down to just have a laugh and get some education, I can't recommend enough our membership community, Friends of the Truth. It's a growing platform and things are always improving on that side of things, but the value that you get in terms of the exchange that we've made it available at, in my view, is insane value. You can head to friendsofthetruth.co or hit the link in the show notes to learn more about that. Please enjoy this episode. You are now listening to the Here for the Truth Podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. Welcome back to the Here for the Truth Podcast. Today, our friend, Bernard Gunther returns. Bernard has had a lifelong interest in exploring the mysteries and hidden knowledge surrounding our planet and humanity's origins, questioning the roots of what constitutes reality and how social and spiritual conditioning impacts upon our collective search for the truth in all aspects of life. He first joined us way back on episode 25, nearly three years ago, or possibly more than three years ago, and then joined us once again on episode 94 with his wife, Laura Matsu, to talk about evolutionary relationships. Bernard, welcome back. Welcome. It's great to be back, guys. How many episodes do you guys have now? This is 183, I think. Yes, 183. You're pumping. Good. Couple generators, man. We've got to keep it consistent around here. Yeah. Bernard, to start this one, I want to get an overview in terms of what you're seeing at the moment in terms of how things have evolved, obviously, since those intense years between 2020 and 2023, what you're seeing within the truth movement, where you think we're heading, collectively, what are you sensing into and feeling in terms of where we are in the trajectory of all things? I know that's a big question, but tell me what comes up. Well, the Great Awakening is upon us, and the aliens, they're going to come. That's my answer. No, it's a good question, because I was just talking to Laura about it, because when the pandemic happened and all of that, all the craziness, there was also the political frenzy with Trump and the election frenzy and all of that, and that's coming up again. But we both, I feel more detached from that. Let's backtrack back a little bit. Personally speaking, I was never on the political side, left or right. I was always statism sucks. I have more an anarchist view, but then I have my own issues with anarchism, certain ideologies people attach to. But when the pandemic came around and the whole woke left cult and all of that, even when I was speaking out more, sharing our conservative views, I came in touch with my inner conservative part of me. I'm like, oh, we need that as well. But over time, the polarization of the political end, hardcore pro-Trumpers or hardcore anti-Trumpers, the TDS, and then the conservative rise as a knee-jerk reaction to the woke left, everything became just too extreme, and I cannot identify with either, even the political end. So even with the elections coming up, it's pretty intense what's happening, especially in the US. So who knows what's going down on that end, on that level, on that dimension, the political dimension, if they're even going to have an election. Who knows what the deep state is going to push. But I'm more detached from that. So I have no investment in that or any expectations. I think the issues are much deeper. We really need to engage more in the inner work, in the psychospiritual work, because there's a deeper process happening. And I feel a lot of us, many of us are connected more from our spiritual reality, so to speak, whatever spectrum you're on. So on a personal level, I'm really more focused on the inner work and also helping other people, similar to you guys, just of engaging in that, to be the change, as cheesy as it sounds, but as within, so without. So it's more the inner alignment. And in terms of what will happen, I have no clue. So I'm not in the prediction business. I think it will more intensify, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of... With Tico's taking over, there's a lot of psychosis. We see the frenzy right now. Lorna, we also want to do a podcast on this whole cancel culture and this whole, for example, Israel-Palestine, the craziness, what's going on there, right? And I was an active pro-Palestine activist, literally. I've had my face painted with the Palestinian flag. I was at a federal building in LA, like, you know, Zionism is terrorism and all of that. I got all into that. So I can emphasize, but nowadays it's been hijacked by the woke left. It becomes the next BLM, you know, and Laura has been canceled on Instagram for not speaking out about Palestine. This is just insane. So all of these ideologies have been hijacked, and it's just people are losing it more and more. So this is extreme polarization, which I'm trying to stay away from. And I'm not saying that the truth is in the middle, like the middle ground fallacy. I think we need to make a stand and speak out. There are obviously atrocities happening in Palestine, for example, all of that, but it's bigger than that and all that. So then we have another level, the transhumanism agenda and all of that, the tech, you know, technology is taking it over more and more. But with everything that's happening, I find myself to have a more and more nuanced view, right? So not getting into, like, extreme black and white thinking like this or that. With transhumanism and AI, for example, I'm not fully rejecting AI or technology, you know, it helps us in many other ways. It's just, you know, you don't want to become a slave to it, so to speak. And the best way we can combat that is not losing ourselves within that. So come to the inner alignment in the inner work to our true self. And we all have our own, quote unquote, purpose and part in all of that. And also acknowledging that there are things we have control over, right? So, but, you know, I'm very careful with the prediction business, because I've been this for a long time. I've heard it so many times already over 10 years ago, like a lot of doom and gloom, black pill, like the economy of what should have been crumbled already 10 years ago, and, and all kinds of madness, you can easily get into, like, hardcore prepper mode as well, right? I'm not denouncing maybe to take some measures and all that. But there's a lot of things happening on the on the negative end, but on the positive end, it, you know, for me, I always say, you know, there's this silver lining with all the madness, attempted enslavement of humanity does trigger an awakening, it forces people to focus on what truly matters. So you can see it in your own life. So it happened in your lives, right? There's also opportunity within that. But it requires, you know, a lot of letting go a deeper alignment, getting out of our comfort zone, asking questions, not regarding the world, but within ourselves. And it's not easy, right? But I'm also, I feel we sign up for this. So there's part of me that's very optimistic, or kind of like, I don't know, as a child, when I saw like a thunderstorm coming, like dark clouds, and it was dark out there. I was like, yeah, bring it on. Yeah. Oh, there's an excitement around it. You know what I mean? Even though it's dangerous or whatever, but there's an excitement of just like, let's do this. That's why we were here. So that's my attitude. And I don't, you know, I don't claim to have all the answers, but I'm going along and then answer to whatever may come with regards to my own work and anything else, right? Professionally and privately. Yeah. Awesome, man. You touched on so much for us to explore. You know, it feels like to me, like, nothing is written, you know, like, whatever's coming is changing and adjusting all the time, you know, relative to how we're evolving consciously as individuals and as a collective. And like, we could be heading in one direction, and all of a sudden we shift because of shifts that happen within our own consciousness. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what I mean to predict. Nobody can, there are so many people trying to predict, and you can see certain patterns, trajectories, absolutely, right? But all the, you know, nobody could have predicted the pandemic, maybe something, they're going to pull something, but, you know, it's always this black swan phenomenon. You kind of know what something was up, but then it's never what you think it is, right? I'm sure they have something in plans for the next round and who knows what, right? A certain playbook. [Speaker 2] (9:49 - 9:49) Bring it on. [Speaker 1] (9:49 - 10:55) Bring it on. Let's go. So, you know, I think the danger nowadays with this information overload is that, especially in the truth of movement, so to speak, we get too hooked, or people get too hooked on information alone. And soundbites and social media and all of that, right? And then people just run with it. The best examples, and sorry, but, you know, there was these, the auroras, the Northern Lights that happened just a couple of weeks ago, or just last week, right? Everybody did it all, like, and people just repeat that stuff because somebody posted it without, like, doing, like, verifying it for themselves. It's like these memes and what I found, no offense, but a lot of truth has become like NPCs. That has no ground in reality whatsoever, right? And it's just this frenzy instead of, like, reflecting, hold on, you know, could this be true? What is this information? And there's, you know, as much nonsense as there is in the mainstream, we need to really question a lot of this stuff that's floating around in the so-called truth movement as well. So that's key. [Speaker 2] (10:56 - 11:50) A person that lives within nuance and has the capacity within themselves, you know, within their nervous system, they're not going to just see something pop up on their algorithm and immediately post it as like, this is the truth. My team knows the answer. You know, they're going to go, oh, this is interesting. Like, how does this make me feel? What's going on? Maybe there's some truth to it. You know, let me, like, investigate this a little further. But again, this is something that we've talked about often on this podcast, this dance between the pair of opposites of certainty and uncertainty and how it's so uncomfortable for many to live in the land of uncertainty and that they need to be certain and that they need to be overwhelmed with this information and to be disconnected from their body, disconnected from their hearts, and just put this information out there as it's the truth and that everything's evil and everyone's bad and there is no hope. And, you know, I think we're on the same page there where that's just, that's just not my worldview. [Speaker 1] (11:50 - 14:20) Yeah. People hate ambivalence, right? Not only regarding, I mean, I'm not taking, I'm not taking myself out of the equation. I've felt very certain about certain things in the past and like, okay, maybe I have to see it in a different way. You know, best example I've was Elon Musk, you know, he is the technocratic antichrist. He's evil. He's going to bring transhumanism and yeah, he's a transhumanist. He's a materialist, but there's another side to him. He has a very evolutionary force interrupter, has done some quote unquote good things that helped inadvertently in many other ways, you know, Twitter and all of that. And it's just, you don't want to fall, like you said, into psychological splitting and seeing things of all good or all bad. But we've also seen with this ambivalence people, you know, with everything's happening as well. And that's a trauma response as you know, make sure you make a really good point where you're really grounded in your body and nervous system. You don't latch on on things so easily. You're secure within yourself. But if you're out of body and really lost, then you also want to identify with a certain belief or group. Hence you have this whole like from new age to I'm a Christian now, right? Or I'm a conservative now from liberal and conservative, like always needing to identify with a certain ideology and a group and a movement and nothing against groups, but you lose your individual self by doing that. And that only works in favor of the quote unquote matrix forces, right? So I think that's how a lot of people get hijacked to their own minds, to their own disassociated states. And like you said, trying to conduct this discomfort of ambivalence and not knowing what's going on and needing to be certain, even we've we have addressed it even in the program we're doing people, you know, you can see it probably in your work too, people want to be around like minded people around groups to connect. And I totally agree. But this can also be a trauma response, needing to connect to a group and identify like with quote unquote, like minded people, I feel safe now, right? Everybody thinks like I think and that can be in itself like that's how cults are being created, by the way, right? Of the need to be around quote unquote, like minded people. And again, we want to be around like minded people, but I want to be more around people that are not necessarily in agreement with everything how I see the world, but also engaged in the inner work, right? And in that sense, and then find your true individual self, rather than have this group hive mind thing going on again. [Speaker 2] (14:22 - 15:14) Yeah. I also, you know, I think it's so important to because we, you know, we have people on Instagram that we, we connect with, or we follow, or we align with. And that we can't just, just because we agree with one person on so many things, like, let's say you Bernard, you have however many followers, you make a post, like, you wouldn't want your followers to be like, okay, Bernard post it posted it, that means it's true, I'm just going to go share it, you know, you want to inspire within them, critical thought, hey, listen, I put this information out here, I have, I've done some work I've, I've explored, I've investigated, but hey, I'm a human being, I don't have all the answers. I'm not right all the time. And so I think people need to be mindful, like just because you may agree with an individual in a certain way, you can't just then take everything they say as the truth that you have to, you have to stay critical, and you have to question and you have to take some time to reflect. [Speaker 1] (15:14 - 16:35) Yeah, then I'm agreeing with something, as long as there are no ad hominem attacks, strawman arguments, and all of that. Sometimes people agree, disagree with something I never said, you know, the typical, like, I never even implied that, like, the strawman arguments, right, I'm all for disagreements, but first, like, understand the context, right, of what I was trying to say to begin with. But but I hear you, man. And it's also really about, yeah, you know, it's, it's a social media thing, though, right? Even like what you mentioned, when I, in my work, when it reached a lot of people, even when I quote somebody, a certain excerpt or text, and people right away imply that I support and agree with this person's whole work. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which doesn't even, it's not even make sense, impossible, because it's not like I've studied a person's, you know, like, been a scholar about anything. But the, you know, killing the messenger or the red herring, or all kinds of fallacies when the quote in itself is correct, you know, for example, happens to Laura, she posts about all show and whatnot, like great also put, but have you seen this documentary on Netflix, and this and that, you know, as a cult leader, and all of that, and just completely sidetracking the whole thing, right? I'm sure you guys can relate. [Speaker 2] (16:36 - 16:37) Yeah, definitely. [Speaker 1] (16:37 - 17:35) It's almost like everyone's still like looking for a Jesus, like someone who's perfect on every single area, on every single level doesn't make any mistakes, you know, and we're all trying to project that outwards to an individual when there's, it doesn't exist, you know, it really doesn't exist. And like, I think about like the history of tribalism, and like, in the past, obviously, we found safety in the herd through physical and biological safety. Whereas now, it's more so psychological. And this is so prevalent within the truth of community. And there's layers to collectivism. And I see it all the time. In the truth of community, we're just looking for another group to agree with. But to me, like, individualism, it's about making your own mind or the final arbiter of truth. But the issue with that is that that requires an exertion of mental effort, it requires one to be conscious to act consciously to think things through to read things appropriately. And I'm just not saying that, you know, there's a whole lot of people that are there on that level. [Speaker 2] (17:36 - 17:57) Well, yeah, and it's also, I mean, I know it's semantics here, too. But it's like, you know, so many people are a condition, so many people are distorted in their mental thinking, like there has to be a dropping in, a dropping in, in the body, you know, tuning into the wisdom that lies within there. Because I just think, I mean, what I'm seeing is so many people are so disconnected. You know, obviously, the work that you guys do, you know, is so focused on that as well. [Speaker 1] (17:58 - 21:21) Yeah, this is like, but the problem is, people are, like Gurdjieff would say, people are asleep, but they don't know that they are asleep. They're dreaming to be awake, they don't have the self awareness to tune into the body, or like, you know, there are different levels of being different levels of self awareness. And I have to say, I'm sorry, like Norbert talked about this, it might be politically incorrect. Some people don't have the IQ intelligence on some level to even read information and comprehend it on a basic you know, comprehensive level of just frontal cortex, rational, basic thinking or reason, right. So that's missing a lot as well in the cortical truth movement, because they're emotionally driven. They're behind the screen, right. And, and a lot of them, they, you know, it's a trauma response to get off, like putting other people down projecting on them, and I don't give this and trolling people. It's like almost something is feeding through them literally is food for them, right? You have this, a lot of pathological individuals on online, even the call so called truth movement, then you have the whole red pill menosphere movement that gets going off the deep end and all that. Right. So it's, you have all these, these, you know, what's it called? These personality, the logical triads, dark, dark personality triad of Machiavellian psychopath and narcissist, right, kind of mix up all of that. And that's what's going on on social media, right, especially people that, you know, I'm all about people want to stay anonymous and all of that, but people hide behind fake profile pics, fake names, and all of that. And you're missing the human connection. Yeah, right. And especially Twitter, man, Twitter is, is, is extremely toxic. People project on each other and all of that, right. And we don't relate to human as human to human anymore. That's a key point. And Joe made a good point. We won't, you know, I can see myself, especially truth and mostly you won't find this one person who's right about everything. And then you get angry at me now with David Icke, for example, I have my issues with David Icke now, right. But I have to also check myself, hey, don't throw the baby at the bathwater and put the mirror on myself. I'm not enlightened. I'm not omniscient. I'm sure I have my blind spot on things that I'm off about, like, as I see it, maybe he's off about and whatnot. So having this nuance, you can only have that nuance if you can turn the mirror on yourself and engage in the work, right? Otherwise, you're just consistently projecting externally your own misery onto others. And I feel that's what a lot of people do, right? They project their own internal pain, dissatisfaction, envy, whatever it may be onto the other world, outside world. And I see a lot happen in the so-called truth movement, the victim blame trap, right? Because, I mean, Flo and I talked about this as well, we see many corner code truthers that, you know, that are struggling, they're living in their car or in a trailer park or whatnot, like they don't have their basic life together, right? And then blame the system, everything outside themselves when instead, you know, one of the quotes of Jordan Peterson, like, clean up your room first before you're trying to solve the world's problems, so to speak. And again, Jordan Peterson, a very controversial figure too, and people split on him too, but again, nothing is black and white. Bernard, I can't believe you're quoting Jordan Peterson. [Speaker 2] (21:21 - 21:32) Do you realize the views that he had around the vaccine and he held a show and he allowed non-vaccinated people to come to the show? Oh my God. I can't believe we invited Bernard back on. This is ridiculous. [Speaker 1] (21:33 - 21:35) We'll just end the podcast here. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (21:36 - 21:47) No, but I love that point that you bring up because that's something that we witness all the time where it's like, you're trying to be this activist, change the whole world, and yet you can't even clean the dishes in your own sink. [Speaker 1] (21:47 - 24:43) Yeah, well, I mean, you think about like Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of need, like your basic life and safety and environment has to be in order for you to even develop consciously, for you to build self-esteem, for you to think rationally, like if you're trapped in even physical survival and your basic needs aren't met, like self-actualization, it's a highway up the ladder, so to speak. Yeah. No, it's true. I mean, I remember when I've been studying various esoteric traditions, Gurdjieff and many other teachers, and they would not even accept students unless they have their basically material needs completely met and are even thriving, right? That was a necessity that you cannot engage in deeper in a spiritual work or psycho-spiritual work unless you have that foundation, right? And that's maybe a contradiction is a lot of people have a lot of trauma and psychological issues, and then because of that, they have a hard time creating the foundation, right? But you just need to start somewhere. I think nowadays, a lot of entitlement, right? I used to work a job at a warehouse for, I remember that was back in the 90s. I made $300 a week working eight hours a day, right? Okay, that was in the 90s, low of inflation, but still, I was busting my ass, you know? And nowadays, there's a certain entitlement that comes along with the whole, you know, infusion of the neo-Marxist left, like, you know, fuck the rich, I don't want to work, I want everything for free, right? And then you have the new generations that grow up on the internet, and they think everything is free, so I want free stuff. So they, you know, it's a whole, it's not only mindset, it's just also the conditioning and the programming. But yeah, it's just basic taking self-responsibility on a basic level. And we all know that the world is corrupt, the banks are corrupt, right? Taxation is theft. I know all of that, right? And people are being impoverished on purpose, but at the same time, you don't want to give your power away by constantly blaming the outside world. Yeah. And this is where, like, the warrior mindset and the warrior philosophy, I feel like, is really important. Like, okay, we're against insidious, nefarious, corrupt systems. And at the same time, it is reality. So, like, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to show up? How are you going to face that reality, right? And even when it comes to, like we mentioned before, with the nuance, when it comes to different people's point of views, it's like Bruce Lee said, like, take what's useful, you know, discard what's not, add what's uniquely your own. And again, you know, this is where we all need a little bit of warriorship in our lives, I think. Yeah. And I'm sure if you guys, you guys have a lot of guests on, you see probably a lot of guests that may contradict each other, right? All the time, yeah. So, it's not like there's one thing, one size fits all kind of thing, right? [Speaker 2] (24:43 - 25:33) No, and I like that element, you know, like, I want to grapple with ideas. I want to be challenged. I want to be curious about why I know the things I know or think the things I think or believe the things I believe. Like, that's just been part of my journey my whole life. It's like, if I come across something that I think makes more sense, you know, I may drop what I thought to be true before, but you don't see that as often, you know, because again, there's the rigidity and the desire for certainty. But I'm curious, because you mentioned it before, and we've chatted about this, like, these flips that happen, you know, liberal to conservative, you know, new age to Christian or whatever, like, what, like, from a psychological standpoint, can you comment on that? Like, what's happening? I know you touched upon it, but I'm just kind of want to like, pull apart the threads of this because we're seeing it so often. [Speaker 1] (25:34 - 27:47) Yeah, on a basic psychological spiritual level, it also ties into spiritual bypassing. But it's a, I see it as an unconscious trauma response, that when you have trauma wounding, right, that's, you're disconnected from your true self from essence. And men made a trauma response based on actually unconscious toxic shame, is to create a new personality, a new identity, the false self, right, you need to cling to and identify with in order not to feel all this terror of the negative emotions of this self, almost what you would call self hate or unconscious shame, like, I'm a mistake, I'm not good enough. Right, which, as you may know, for basic psychology, the first three years are most important in a child's life. That's the setup for the rest of the adulthood, and then it gets compounded with developmental trauma. But the false self is created, the more essence is pushed back into the background, right. And this false self has a certain idea, certain beliefs, certain things, unconsciously that are acceptable or not acceptable, right? What is not acceptable to feel or think is being pushed also into the shadow, right, that goes into Jung and shadow work. But with this false personality that comes certain beliefs and certain identifications that are very mechanical, needing to identify with a certain side with an ideology with a belief with a group, right, that kind of also represents the false self and keeps you safe, right, that gets rid of ambivalence of insecurity of like, Oh, I feel safe. I'm around a group that feels exactly has the same views, same ideas. This is who I am. Right? Now, the flipping, it's interesting. So is it you know, when something happens with a big event, or also like, egregores, right, like thought forms like that come up means where Tico thought forms in the collective, that just start something and people just latch on to that, that happened, you know, let's say, for example, New Age to Christian, right, that was a big, we had changed it started with this one famous woman who was just, I think, a terracotta creator, forgot her name, and she became... [Speaker 2] (27:47 - 27:48) Doreen Virtue? [Speaker 1] (27:48 - 32:24) Is it Doreen Virtue? Yeah. And then many others followed. But it's like, it's one extreme to the other extreme, right? And then not only is then the need to identify with the new side, but then there's a necessity to demonize where they were coming from. And now all of a sudden, terracotta, satanic worship, you're getting entity attachments, yoga, satanic, meditation, and all of that, right? I've had a good friend who has done this extreme flip. I think... And I'm familiar. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think some of you know, I'm like, I don't recognize him anymore, right? I've known him over 10 years back then, his heart was really open, was grounded, he was, and now is extremely self righteous, hardened. And it's sad to see, but I know a little bit of his of his history about his upbringing and what his own trauma, it's so clearly a trauma response, right? And but there's no getting through, I have to actually make boundaries and all of that. But it is just a need to identify. And then you need to put down, in order to make us feel good about yourself, again, the other side, the old identity, so to speak, and it gets it becomes extreme, then they even this new age to Christian now, these new quote, unquote, reborn Christians put all kinds of things into under the umbrella of new age, which is not even new age. I think Jung is new age now. Exactly. Jung is new age. Yoga is like, all this stuff is older than Christianity, right? It's not new age. But anyway, it's just the need then to identify and like, and to see more nuanced, there's also natural impulse, I think, what happened over the past few years, especially in the US, there's a natural impulse, even the collective to connect with something higher, like a spiritual seeking, right? And if you have no foundation, and it's trauma driven, then this, you know, almost pure spiritual impulse to seek the divine to see God turns into a dogmatic religious impulse, right of finding trying to find an identity and belief system very rigid around it. And this is I am this is not who I am, and everything else needs to be rejected. And that's what we're seeing these extremes. And I'm not throwing out the bait. I'm not anti Christian, you know, it's not about I hate Jesus or anything like that. It's just the dogma. And the missionary complex is almost a revival of some very medieval dogmatic Christian impulse that's happening. That's that's also very disturbing. There's a witch hunt happening for anybody who's not that. But on the basic level, just to answer your question, I think it's just it's a basic trauma response to, to find a new identity to not feel right, this toxic shame. And it's also based on basic Jungian psychology on shadow projection, right? Whatever they feel or see others, it's actually how they treat themselves. You know, they see this even now with this distorted track movement. Everybody, you know, they want their trad wife be in the kitchen, submit all of that, right? And, and, and it's insane. You say cook a steak. Yeah. And, you know, almost romanticizing the 50s or 40s and whatnot, you know, and interesting aside on Lauren, I were just listening to a very fascinating podcast here is called the Witch Hunt of J.K. Rowling. You know, she was a feminist. And even now people are throwing out the baby with the bathwater for feminism. The first two ways of feminism were necessary, not only for basic rights, but women were abused, beaten, killed by their husbands, right? They had no way out. And now they thought that, you know, the right wing tread movement, you know, hate on everything feminine, feminine empowerment, it's not nuanced anymore. But it's a trauma response, right? It's like they need to, in order to avoid their internal pain, internal shame, they need to identify with the rigid ideology, and then project it on the enemy out there, how they actually unconsciously feel about themselves. Yeah. Because that's actually part of the identification as well. It's not only identifying with the new belief. Part of the identification is who am I against? It's like, who do I demonize? And Tesserian speaks of this as like, what's happening on an unconscious level is like, stay close to me. I need you. Otherwise, who am I? You know? [Speaker 2] (32:25 - 32:25) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (32:25 - 33:01) Who are you without your enemy? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's very tricky. I mean, I've just gotten deeper. J.K. Rowling, like, I didn't know if she was canceled by the religious Christian far right, right, for engaging in witchcraft and teaching children witchcraft. And now she's being canceled by the woke left, right, for stating the outrageous argument that a man is a man, and all that. So she's doing something right. If you're getting canceled by the right and the left, it's not right, no? Yeah. [Speaker 2] (33:01 - 33:08) And they're having, I think so, they're having all the main actors of the Harry Potter movies, like, speak out and take a stand. [Speaker 1] (33:08 - 33:10) Yeah, they're all in it. Yeah, exactly. [Speaker 2] (33:12 - 33:25) It's really a circus. It's like, I don't know, I get some fun out of this. You know, I like sitting back with a popcorn, you know, going through some social media, comment threads, observing how people are talking to each other. You know, it's just a great study on human behavior and psychology. [Speaker 1] (33:25 - 33:50) You can see there's a rain of soul. But you know, in our position, especially lower, she's, you know, she has a big following, like the hate she gets, you know, and projections, right? Especially from both leftist people on Instagram, you know, especially with the Palestine thing for not speaking out about all of that, like any unrelated post she makes, and like, but what about Palestine? It's just like, there's insanity that's going on. [Speaker 2] (33:50 - 33:50) Where'd he go? [Speaker 1] (33:50 - 36:04) Where'd he go, man? I mean, but it's also like, I have to say, you can see it, you know, objectively, like, it's a comedy show and drama and horror show at the same time. But these people also can be become very dangerous, right? If you're so intoxicated with an ideology, they can become very violent. We see this almost like the revival of struggle session of Maoism of Neo Marxism, right? And what's happening in the campuses, and it's literally like BLM vibes, right? This issue between Palestine, Israel has been hijacked by the Neo Marxist. And even like Karl Marx said, in one of his books, the issue is never the issue, whatever the issue is, it's just about revolution and destabilizing and creating chaos. And if people are taken over by Wittig, but it's really like they're taken over by something, some sort of entities, they can do a lot of damage, right? So it's important, I feel, not to get sucked into it. But we need to also stand our ground and speak out about it. It's kind of like the fine line, right? Because there's definitely the war happening on multiple dimensional levels, the way I see it. And, you know, you don't want to spiritual bypass anything, you know, stay grounded, you have to, I mean, I have to remind myself, choose your battles wisely, because a lot of people are conflict phobic, I'm the opposite. So I need to watch out, you know, just work more of art of war. But sometimes we need to make a certain stance, right? And I think we need more voices. And I know you guys doing this as well to have this more nuanced approach, not get too identified with the sides, you know, and especially as it's heating up now, with everything that's going on in this country and the world and the polarization. I mean, we recently had an opposite about holding the tension of opposites, right? That's a main aspect of shadow work and Carl Jung's work, and all that. And it's easier said than done. Because it's such a relief, even emotionally, it feels good, like a dopamine hit, if you project on somebody, it makes you feel good, you know, not your true self, but part of you, whatever's working through you, gets a kick out of it. So that's... [Speaker 2] (36:04 - 36:43) I think this is where basic knowledge comes in, of just understanding the architecture of the psyche, too, you know, I think I'm pretty sure you guys are into IFS, you know, I've done different types of parts of work before that changed my life, you know, just changed the way I viewed myself, and the way I viewed others, and where I did feel super big charge, or I was over admiring someone, it was information for me, it was like, okay, what is this saying about me, you know, understanding that, you know, we contain multitudes. And so I think like the foundational education and understanding the nature of the human psyche, like, isn't there for a lot of people. And so they're just kind of lost in this cauldron of thought. [Speaker 1] (36:43 - 41:30) And they're like, Oh, me, me, me, me, not understanding, like, the nuance within themselves. That's a very important part. I think people don't know themselves. And you mentioned parts where that's helped me a lot as well. It's not a new concept, but IFS has really made it very applicable, right? For a lot of people, I remember even Gurdjieff and other esoteric teachings talked about all these different false eyes we have. And he had used this number where you have 987 different eyes, and none of them is what is the true self, right? So he was talking about parts work in his own way. But it's very important, because I can see myself one still that triggered little in a little Bernhardt comes up wounded, you know, and like, you know, and it's and then you blend, right? It's called, you know, you think you're that part. And then especially if you have all these different parts, people buy into ideologies, this, none of that is your true self, your true self doesn't identify with a belief system, ideology or a side. So they think this is who they are. And that's when the most damage is done, right? When you mistake the false self for the true self, and all of that. So the way out is, they get psychological, spiritual education, and especially like, you know, and nowadays, I feel it's important in education to teach children this already early on to some degree, right? Some psychological, spiritual self awareness, and I've never been taught that this should be part of the educational system. You know, on that note, on the positive note of everything disintegrating, right? The parents are looking for new ways to teach their children. I'm sure that's what you're doing, Joel, as well, right? And in your life and all that. But there's a silver lining again, right? To take education to our own hands. And also, with all the craziness over the past decade, or even a bit longer, so many amazing new modalities have popped up, right? That I feel also like re-approach even esoteric work or spiritual work in a more grounded manner, like IFS, internal family system. I think it's a very applicable psycho-spiritual modality that works very well. Many other somatic modalities, body work, and all of that, trauma work, all of whatever it may be, even shadow work, it ties into that. These are new modalities that are necessary and helpful. So that's why in a sense, almost the divine is gracing us with this kind of work as well. It's not like you need to go back to the Sumerian tablets and study all the ancient teachings, right? They hold a lot of value, but we have a lot of new tools for the times and right now that are there, which is amazing, right? My parents growing up didn't know any of that, right? Hence, I have to still break through some stuff. You know, but nowadays we have all this richness of teachings and practices, but we need to apply them and people get just distracted by the information overload, right? And like Plato's allegory in the cave that is mass mesmerized by the shadows on the wall, instead of like being more self-reflective. So that's the key point. I know people who are way more emotionally grounded, emotionally intelligent, spiritually aware, have a high level of being, but are not necessarily aware of all the conspiracies that are happening in the world. So you don't want to mistake just some sort of intellectual awareness of how you think the matrix works for awakening either, right? It's all intermixed. Yeah, that's right. And that begs the question, what is awakening? To many people today, awakening means being awake to, like you mentioned, conspiracies in the external reality, and they completely miss the point of what it means to awaken to one's internal world. While I think both are necessary, personally, I think I'd connect with someone who's awakened to their internal world, yet more so asleep to the external, you know, matrix control system than someone who's purely identified as a conspiracy theorist and hasn't really ventured on that internal awakening process yet. I want to ask you a question, because this is a word where there seems to be so much distortion around it, so many different ideas about what this word means, different systems offer different definitions for this word, and the word is ego. You know, like, obviously, from a Jungian perspective, there's one definition of ego. I know before Yerasimos mentioned he's into a different system of parts work called voice dialogue, which more so defines ego as that which is aware of the different parts, so I want to discuss that for a bit. If you have thoughts as well, Yerasimos, of course chime in. [Speaker 2] (41:30 - 41:46) Yeah, well, in voice dialogue and the psychology of selves and the aware ego, they had different terms, like the operating ego, which were like the collection of primary selves or primary parts that kind of run a person's life, but then the aware ego is the ability to kind of stand in between the opposites and understand that there are different parts. [Speaker 1] (41:46 - 44:28) Yeah, and then you have, like, more so New Age leaning people who just completely, like, tarnish ego as everything that's negative about an individual. Yeah, yeah. So just checking. That's a big question, Jesus. Okay. But ego, like, the way I say ego is, I kind of equate it with personality, right? Your sense of I, right? Of who I am. And the main, main characteristic of the ego is that it feels itself, I feel this is who I am, but I feel separated from the outside world. There's me and the external world, there's me and others, so to speak. So that's how I characterize ego, right? In another sense, ego for me is the interface between also the true self, the real I, right? What else? Higher self and the external world as well. So we need personality ego. It's to demonize, right? And in all spiritual traditions, you say you got to get rid of ego, be egoless, you know, don't act out of ego and all of that. And there's truth in that, but there are stages. And if you prematurely try to get rid of your quote unquote ego, you fall into, as you know, spiritual bypassing and all that. And then people can again dream to be awakened and disintegrate more, get out of body, and it can make things worse. So we need to have an integral. So first the ego also can come out of what we talked about before, out of the loss of essence, we create the false personality, which is the ego as well, right? That the ego is also can be a have a concept of all kinds of beliefs, ideas about itself, which are simply not true. These are just identifications taken on on the journey as an avoidance to feel certain feelings, which we are suppressing all of that, you know, based on wounding trauma, we all have conditioning, social cultural conditioning in identity, like, I'm an American, I'm German, I'm this, I'm that, you know, this is all ego identifications out of the personality as well. This is not who you are, but people mistake it for who they are, right? People mistake the ego personality for the true self. Now, when you go deeper in the inner work, you realize when you really go deep within yourself, contemplative and not just intellectually, but, you know, do some meditation, do the parts work and all of that, you realize, hold on, this eye is not just one eye, there's many different parts that contradict each other of contradicting desires, wants, needs, all of that, right? [Speaker 2] (44:29 - 44:34) So where would you throw the parts in? Like, how would you categorize the parts? Like, are they part of the ego? [Speaker 1] (44:35 - 44:43) That's, I would, I would say them as part of the ego structure, right? Different little egos, part of the ego structure, person personalities, right? [Speaker 2] (44:43 - 44:45) That take over subpersonalities or something. [Speaker 1] (44:45 - 50:34) That person, exactly. But still part of the ego structure, right? They're kind of like on the surface, everything is on the surface, right? When you go deeper within, that's when the unified in IFS, the self comes up, right? That's kind of as more stands back and observes and can unify it all. And it's not attached to these beliefs, identifications, and all of that. That's a key point. And I recently saw a quote from, for example, from psychosynthesis, Robert Aguioli, you know, the guy who founded psychosynthesis, also great psychospiritual modality. Somebody asked him the difference between self with, you know, little S self and capital S self, similar to ego and true self. And, you know, some of, I like to make the distinction as well, that the ego, the little self sees itself enclosed, identified, but separate from the outside world. But the more you're connected to the true self, the big I, the real I, as Gurdjieff said, it kind of blends, you almost feel, you know, it's not intellectually, philosophically, but you sense a oneness, a connection to all that is. You are part of something bigger. It's not this isolated sense of I anymore, right? There's more unity and more understanding the, literally, the oneness of all, right? So that's kind of what crosses over. But I feel in my work or in general, you can still then, you know, the more you're connected to self, the more your ego personality becomes a reflection of that, right? That's a key point, I feel, especially in order not to fall into spiritual bypassing and just destroy the ego. This is actually very bad. People are dealing with trauma already, unconscious toxic shame. I'm not good enough. I'm bad. I'm a mistake. And then they toppled on top or the ego is bad. I'm this thought is bad. I'm engaging in this, you know, my lower nature and sexual thoughts coming up and like, yes. And then you get into like Christian, you know, Christianity also bases that you're born in sin. You are born as a mistake, right? This is like the ultimate corruption. But over time, you make your ego more healthy expression of essence of the true self, right? So you still have almost a paradox, but the combination of just really, not combination, but it's like you have a sense of self right here this way. Yeah. But you're also still connected to all that is out there and expresses through you uniquely. And I think we have all these moments and we sometimes feel more connected coming from self, right? And feel more all of this. And it's a certain sense of, again, it's not an intellectual philosophical idea, but it's a sense, a level of being and an awareness. And sometimes we can get stuck in our ego and our personality and beliefs. And it kind of, you know, goes back and forth. So to speak, I can see this within myself, but the work is to make the personality a more and more conscious vessel for self, for the divine to come through for other, you know, that's the path, so to speak. And I think in some distant future or like on the path of soul embodiments of illusion, we will eventually be able to fully transcend the ego, right? When the full, the soul, the self takes charge, but in a grounded manner, but it needs to happen naturally, right? And even like, by the way, Sri Aurobindo, you guys know, I'm big into integral yoga, Sri Aurobindo's work. He even also said in himself, you cannot engage in the greater work of integral yoga or realize Baham, the true self, before you have actually, as he calls, established yourself in the ignorance and separated yourself from the group and established an ego, right? Because we need the ego. Like a lot of people don't even have a true ego personality. They are just in a soup of group identity, right? Like when we see whatever the group may be, left, right, truth movement, whatever, as long as your identity revolves around others, you're not an individualized self. So before engaging in the greater work of spiritual work, you need to separate yourself from the group, create a separate identity. This is who I am, my own thoughts, right? Which still may be conditioned or whatever, but you're at least not identified with the group anymore. You need to become more individuated, become a true individual without being identified with anything, any group. And then from that point, then you can also engage more in the greater work and really go from there. But as I said, there's a famous quote by, what's his name, Carl Jung. He said, the first half of your life is about creating, establishing an ego personality, a separate self. The second half in life is about getting rid of it again, right? So that's a paradox there as well. Now a short break from the episode. Hope you're enjoying this episode, guys. Just a quick shout out that you can watch these episodes at our website at hereforthetruth.com. That is the only place where the full episodes are available to watch, not just listen to. And on our website, if you press coaching and offers, that's a way for you to get connected to everything that we're offering at the moment, including our membership community, including joining the course waitlist for Rise Above the Herd. I'm doing one-on-one tarot readings at the moment. Yerasmus is doing human design readings. So if you're down to connect on a deeper way and to evolve and learn, et cetera, whatever it might be, you can head to hereforthetruth.com and click the coaching and offers tab to see what resonates. [Speaker 2] (50:35 - 51:11) Back to the episode. I want to ask you this question because I'm in alignment with what you're saying. What does it look like when the big S, you're living more from the big S, what does that look like in the day to day? Oh, I have to go to the store and pick up some milk. I'm engaging in a debate. Is it just the ability to hold space to stand in between the tension of opposites and understand the bigger picture as opposed to just getting stuck in one side? Because the parts are going to be there. I'm just trying to figure out what it is. [Speaker 1] (51:11 - 54:46) Yeah. If I can chime in briefly with my interpretation, I think the purpose of the quote-unquote great work and like Bernard has been saying is that more of the light from your essence gets to shine through the ego personality or the ego mask. And I think this has a lot to do with becoming more heart-centered as well. So when it comes to your question of what happens in your daily life, I think it's like in your interactions, how you connect with others, with nature, with self, more of that true self-essence is presence and is able to shine through the quote-unquote mask in terms of how we engage and interact with others in the world at large. Yeah, exactly. So to take your example of what going to the store in self, I'm just floating around. In self, I don't need any milk anymore. I'm fully a breatharian. For me, it's hard to put into words, number one, because it's not an intellectual thing. It's not even emotions. There's a sense of really groundedness and connectiveness of being in the present moment, right? There's no thoughts intruding and you're just doing what you need to do. And it's about being in this world, but not of this world. Whatever happens in the outside world is not disturbing your inner peace. That's the key characteristic for me, right? I'm not distracted by any thoughts or problems I have currently, whatever I have to do or anything from the past intruding me. Whatever chaos is happening in the world is not affecting my inner peace. That's for me the definition of really living from self, coming from self. You have these even in IFS, these eight different Cs like curiosity, confidence, courage, calm, and all of that, these aspects of self, right? And it doesn't mean that you're checked out. It doesn't mean that I'm just gone. A lot of people mistake disassociation or disembodiment for being in self. No, you're disassociated. You're still really tuned in, in everything and everyone. You can sense other people. You can see what's going on, right? You can allow yourself to feel feelings, for example, without getting identified with them. That's a key point. It's not about not feeling anything. And that's easier said than done, because the true work, as you may know, is you allow yourself to feel the feelings without identifying with them. For example, anger may come up, sadness, but it's kind of like, oh, there's anger. It's flowing through you. It's not getting stuck in the body armor or tightened up, right? You're letting yourself to have the experience without getting attached to it or identify with it. Non-attachment is a big thing as well, right? So it comes and goes, right? I can see myself sometimes getting attached, getting to worry, oh my God, this and that, right? I know then I'm not in self right away in the self-awareness and then I get too blended. So I need to do some practices to reconnect, so to speak, but you're not checked out, right? You're still doing what you need to do. Absolutely. But like Joel said, I think it would then, it also comes up more in a state of being heart-centered, right? This groundedness and this true, authentic compassion and not judgment and all of that. And it's easier in real life than in online, I have to say. Of course. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (54:46 - 55:24) Yeah. Well, I liked what you said there too, because I feel like sometimes it can get confused with like, oh, I'm not going to have an appropriate reaction to the situation that's at hand. Let's say I'm going to the store to get milk, like my example before, and then all of a sudden I walk by and there's a car accident in front of me. There's an appropriate reaction to that, but is it going to take you over? Is it going to ruin your next seven days? Are you going to be thinking about it? What's the state of your nervous system? It's more like, okay, I had this experience, I'm aware that I had it, things are happening within me, and then I could go on with my day and handle what needs to be handled as opposed to just being completely overwhelmed and taken over. [Speaker 1] (55:24 - 55:48) Yeah. But you made a good point. People misunderstand, they think almost you always constantly can't know. Having a healthy nervous system means you go in and out of sympathetic, parasympathetic nervous system, like in the way as it should be. You're not stuck in one either. Some people are completely stuck in fight and flight, always in anxiety, but some people are stuck in the parasympathetic, completely flat, right? Freeze, exactly. [Speaker 2] (55:49 - 56:01) Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing, it's like, this is my wife's area of expertise. And it's like, it's not about being in one versus the other, it's having the capacity because they all can serve you in different situations. [Speaker 1] (56:01 - 56:27) I see my dog is the best teacher. They're amazingly tuned in, right? Sometimes somebody, the doorbells, whatever, the mailman comes, he gets like a hardcore fight, protect, who is this guy? And then the guy leaves and literally 30 seconds later, he's just laying and relaxing and just kind of like cuddling and completely relaxed, right? Completely letting go. [Speaker 2] (56:28 - 56:39) Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. Dogs are great teachers. Our dog, a piece of paper falls off the counter and she freaks out a little bit, might be a little too dysregulated, but generally speaking, she's okay. [Speaker 1] (56:39 - 56:41) But she doesn't get stuck there either, right? [Speaker 2] (56:41 - 56:43) Yeah, no, no, she doesn't. Exactly. [Speaker 1] (56:44 - 59:50) Yeah. And I think that's the common delusion, is that people think spiritual attainment is that the negation of reality, when I completely reject that notion. I think it's actually, the reality principle is very much so integrated on the journey. And I like what you mentioned before, Bernard, in terms of, you said Gurdjieff mentioned that a level of individuation and individualism has to be attained before one can really engage and step into the next levels. And to me, this is where Ayn Rand played a huge part in my journey, in terms of learning to be an individual, just recognizing the crowd, noticing collectivism and being able to really separate from that in a decent way. And to me, she's the queen of reason and rationality. And then this ties in when I think of David Hawkins map of consciousness, you have a reason, I think at 450 or something, just before you get into what's above that, whether it's love, joy, peace, enlightenment, et cetera. So this ties in with everything we're speaking of as well. You really need to immerse yourself in objective reality, build reason, build rationality, develop physical and material safety to a certain degree, become an individual in the world. And then I think the next steps of evolving one's consciousness and bringing in and connecting to the divine becomes more possible. Yeah, absolutely. But at each stage, people can easily get stuck, right? It's easy to get stuck, and then people get identified with Ayn Rand and like, this is the way it is. Objectivism, capitalism, yeah, exactly. Because then it has reason, rationality, it has all its limitations. As the God, reason becomes the God in that world. Exactly, right? And then you have the hardcore, getting completely stuck in the mind, right? And all that. But I agree with you. I mean, that's why I'm very attracted to Sri Aurobindo's work and his Integral Yoga, very different. He was a big critic of all the old ways, right? He said, this is not about escaping the world. It's not about escaping Maya. This is not about transcend going into La La Land, so to speak, right? This is about the reversal needs to happen. We need to not go into trying to ascend, trying to go away, trying to have an eruption, all of that. No, we need to bring down the divine down here. We need to spiritualize everything, right? We need to bring the embodiment of the divine into reality, into everyday life. That's why his famous saying is, all life is yoga, right? And that's why I like Gurdjieff's work too about his forfeit teachings is do this work in everyday life, not in some remote island or monastery. It's easier to do this work. I mean, you guys now go on a retreat somewhere like in the tropics and like, oh, yo, I'm certain it's amazing. And then you come back to the city. I mean, that's a test, right? And now you have to hold yourself in difficult situations. And actually, Gurdjieff said, the more difficult the situation, the better for the work, because then you really are being put to the test. [Speaker 2] (59:51 - 59:52) And that doesn't mean... [Speaker 1] (59:52 - 1:11:18) Go home for Thanksgiving or Christmas and see. Like raise toddlers and you'll know what the work is. Exactly. Exactly. You get triggered, you know, like you have to like, exactly, you know, and these are, but if you see it from that light, then that will help. That's why I see like with life, because I would be rejecting going back to where we talked about the victim blame trap and truth is, and I don't want to deal with this and that and fuck that. And, you know, but then everyday life things I was not comfortable with, I had to take responsibility for even, let's say, taxes. I'm not going to pay taxes, right? Taxation is theft, all of that, right? But I'm in no position to do all the work and energy to go undercover or like, you know, not trying to do this and that and then avoid. I know some people who do this, it takes a lot of energy time. I would not be able to do the work. Now there's a saying, feed the crocodiles a little bit to keep them calm, right? From a esoteric perspective. So that's what I'm doing, being legit. So I don't get unnecessary attention towards me, but it's a challenge. I don't want to deal with it. So I had to make a spiritual practice out of this, right? Deal with it. Now I need to take responsibility. I need to get informed, get an accountant and all of this and just do it, right? The best with anything else, I think I don't want to do, right? Approach it more of a curious mind even and kind of more curiosity and almost like a playfulness. And so work becomes play. But again, it comes down to really engaging in life fully. That's a key point. I think the main core foundation is to accept life as it is, right? To really wanting to be here because you see so many trauma responses. You know, I've seen this in the fringe movement, I'm dealing with this a lot. Reincarnation is a trap. Don't go to the tunnel of light, right? Everything is a trap. We want to get out of here, this and that. This is a trauma response, right? Or I don't want to come back here in my next reincarnation. I used to say that. Why? Going back because of trauma. That trauma doesn't have a big just not being able to fit in. It's a part process of the awakening, but it can also be a trauma response in the sense of having been put down by your parents, by your peers, what not, like being shamed, all of that can result in that. But it's about engaging in life fully, accepting to be here, right? It reminds me of Eckhart Tolle. Now I'm quoting Eckhart Tolle. People have issues with him, of course, but he had said some good things too. He said some good things. Whatever the situation is, either fully accept it as it is, or you get out of it. But not accepting it and staying in something is just madness. It's insanity, right? And a lot of things that are wrong in the world. So we do our best to be the change, to change things. But we need to first see things as they are, as Krishnamurti said, not live according to an ideal. That's a trap. That's another thing. What I see happening, people get stuck in ideals, the ideal of communism, neo-Marxism, the ideal of conservative traditional life and how a traditional family should look like and all of that, right? These ideals that don't fit reality. Anarcho-capitalism. Exactly. That's too, right? I'm just a proponent of capitalism, but obviously it's not ideal either because people are not perfect. That's literally what it comes down to, right? But it's really important to see things as they are and fully engaging in life, right? Because I can see in my life certain avoidance, right? We have unavoidant patterns, the attachment patterns, you know, attachment, anxious attachments, avoidant attachment. You see this playing out all across life, not only intimate relationship and business relationship, personal relationship, everyday relationship, right? So you need to be aware of that as well. But the foundational aspect is really to wanting to be here right now, because as I sense and I feel I have experienced through my own inner experience, my true self wants to be here. Absolutely, right? My ego self, my conditioned self might get whined at, you know, complain, get annoyed, all of this, right? But I feel from a higher perspective, the true self absolutely wants to be here and learn the lessons we're here to learn. That's my life philosophy in a nutshell. Yeah, I love it, man. And it resonates deeply. And, you know, it just connects with this principle that like, you know, God is in everything. Like the divine can be found in everywhere. Like even in the most mundane interactions, like in doing one's taxes, you can find and connect God and divide in the same way that you can in the Himalayas, right? Yeah, exactly. And then on that note, thanks for noticing that. And then also not people divide, this is matrix, this is not matrix. You know, I have a matrix job. This is not matrix. These people are matrix. This is not extremely black and white, but you're right, the divine is in all. You know, evil as an absolute does not exist, which the ego mind doesn't, you know, because everybody wants to get rid of evil externally on the other side, which is madness. But that reminds me of something many years ago, I was still living in LA and I had my teacher and I was, that was 15 or 15 years ago and was wanted to buy a car, but it's like, I don't want to deal with car salesmen, they're sneaky, it's matrix stuff, you know, and I was talking to him like, you know, why don't you just let go of this belief, she said, and really trust and put your intention out there and trust that spirit, you know, can work through anyone, right? And help you in any person, no matter where they are, because it's all part of the divine. And I did this mindset and found this most amazing regular car salesman who was just like fairly grounded and got me, didn't screw me over, got me a super deal. And like, anything else in life, I found an amazing accountant now with my taxes, who may not be aware really of what I'm talking about and all the craziness, right? But very grounded, knows exactly what he's doing, right? I want to honor people in their craft, right? In everyday life. And trusting that the divine supports you in this way, which is big. I think that's another thing. I think a lot of people in the Truth Movement can easily fall into the trap of paranoia, not trusting anything in anyone anymore, right? And that's the other thing. We need to question, obviously, but we need to watch out not come from, again, a trauma response where we feel unconsciously we don't trust ourselves, hence we cannot trust life. And the more we then really kind of open ourselves up and with the work, with the prayers, with the intention, we can see that the divine is helping us in many other ways and through the most unexpected channels, so to speak, right? I'm sure like Joel, on your journey, right? All the from Australia to Mexico, there were unexpected, beautiful synchronicities of people helping along, right? And all of that. As you've been guided and all of that. Yeah, man, 100%. Everything can be utilized as medicine. And I think to me, when it comes to the foundation of what it means to be spiritually aware, it's just the recognition that nothing is devoid of meaning. Nothing is random. Everything holds a gift for me on some level, if only I would view it correctly or as William Blake said, if the perception, the lens of perception would be cleansed, so to speak. And to me, this is the real dichotomy is those that believe that the world is against me, everything's random, everything's chaotic, it's an unsafe place. And those that walk this path and recognize that regardless of what circumstances happen or what I find myself doing, in the quote unquote, 3D reality, it's like, God is there, meaning is there, it's rich with something to be a catalyst for spiritual growth within me. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then also, I mean, recognizing then it's the whole, the foundation of the matrix, so to speak, one, the foundational frequency is fear, right? That we know, right? Installed fear. The more you're in fear, the more disconnected from self. But also is, we have been tricked to always look for guidance outside of ourselves. Yeah. Like daddy government, mommy government, go this, you know, even spiritually, you know, I used to be addicted to psychics, tell me what to do. Right? You can even abuse human design, astrology, always, oh my God, what an, you know, and like, get up on an emotional wave. And it becomes a mindfuck at some point too, right? But it's really like, you know, also understanding that everybody's on a unique journey. You know, I know when I used to be very insecure from a brownie, I used to compare myself a lot to others and lose myself within that, right? Human design, I don't have a G center, right? So it's kind of like, where's my inner guidance, so to speak, right? So, but really addressing that everybody, that's what I realized more and more, like even here where I live and, you know, and I got some work done on my house and all of that and the contract and like, and really appreciating people for what they do, who they are and their unique gifts and path, right? That really opens the flow already and brings a certain connection. That's a fear of unity and how I'm already not only protected, but also guided and supported by the divine, right? Or whatever you may want to call it, right? You know, whenever there's something else that's happening and the uniqueness of each individual, we all have our individual paths, you know, and even wherever we are in location, we are in three different locations or whatever works for us, you know, personally, or even astro cartography or whatever, you know, what one place may work for one may not work for another, right? And wherever you are, there's where you need to be maybe based on even higher board laws you're not aware of, karmic influences, soul lessons, who knows, right? I also feel we didn't come here for vacation, so to speak, many of us, especially the work we engaged, right? Yes, we want to like, obviously take care of ourselves, live in a safe place, you know, for us and our family and all of that. But it's not about checking out of reality, right? It's about engaging in life and doing the work we're here to do. And, you know, and I think the uniqueness of it all, and that's the danger of collectivism, you know, Marxism, like they're trying to, they mistake uniformity for unity, right? Yep. That's, that's a key difference. Like there's a oneness in the world, right? Everything is interrelated. We all expressions of, in our unique way of the divine, but we also unique and different in the oneness, right? And the issue of collectivism, they're trying to make everyone the same, same beliefs, same ideas and all of that. And that's, that's, that's the battle, right? [Speaker 2] (1:11:20 - 1:11:22) The equality of outcome. [Speaker 1] (1:11:22 - 1:15:32) Yeah. Yeah, exactly. When it comes to like, the true self, do you think that like the information that we can receive from whether it's human design or astrology or whatnot, do you think these are qualities of the true self or is the qualities of the ego and how we interact? Yeah, that's a good point. I can maybe speak from human design. It's an interesting modality. It gives you more strategy. I think how to engage in life, right? From astrology perspective, it's interesting. I feel like there are so many different systems and also the level of being of a person giving you a reading, you know, can be based on, on what a true self soul potential or more the ego personality, you know, like conventional, I'm not a professional astrologer, but as you guys know, Laura knows, right? My wife, but from what I understand, like you can easily, you can read the personality in the astrology chart, very, the outer personality, very basic on the 12 house system, the 12 areas, right? And most people are concerned with that, right? Most people go reading then when I'm going to meet my lover, but what about my relationship? What about work and money and all of that? That's the outer personality, right? More or less. And it's fine and good. It's part of it. But, you know, especially that's why like evolutionary astrology of Jeffrey Wolf Green and established that that looks more into soul qualities, your soul trajectory, working with the nodes, the outer planets, right? The deeper inner parts of yourself, you know, the, the other, um, the planets more, you know, the sun, moon, mercury, that's more the closer they're more visible. They're more conscious. They describe more the personality, the conscious personality. But when you go deeper into Pluto, Uranus, Neptune, or the nodes, not only the nodes of the moon, but the nodes of any other planet, you go into deeper archetypal processes, your soul evolution from the south node to the north node. So that's very unique as well. But what I really like about, um, evolutionary astrology, the chart, you cannot tell by the chart, he even said himself, and that's very profound. You cannot tell by the chart itself, uh, what level of being the person is on, because it depends on the level of being how the chart expresses itself, right? Um, you can take any chart, you know, um, for example, uh, there's one astrologer, he was analyzing the chart of Sri Aurobindo, right? If you would not know Sri Aurobindo at all, this chart could have played out in many multiple different ways. It doesn't show this, oh, this is an enlightened master, you know, it can play it in many different ways. Same like a chart, you know, that is played out by somebody who turns out to be a psychopath, right? It's also played on very different ways. It's just these archetypal patterns like an imprint when you're born, that can play out itself in different ways based on what level of being incarnated into the, into this body or the soul already, right? So, um, so it's not black and white. So these, these cold readings, I think astrology, human design, all systems, they are not perfect in themselves. Like any system, it's just can give you a partial view that can be very helpful to give you a more objective view for self-understanding, self-acceptance, even understanding others. That can be dangerous to see everything through the one system, right? And then you become dogmatic about that, but ultimately they are very powerful if you use these insights within a work with the psycho-spiritual work, right? Um, and then live out your design, so to speak, right? As, as it said, but in the sense, live out your purpose, which also can change at any time, right? It's also tricky. Like, you know, I had one psychotherapist, uh, follow on, on, on Twitter. I said something good. Like he said, the worst thing you can tell somebody is just be yourself. Wow. Especially for somebody who has not engaged in a work because then most people, 99.9% would think, I'm just being myself is one wounded part that takes over. Right. Or, uh, uh, all kinds of neuroses. I'm just being myself. Right. So, but what is what self are you acting out? That's the question. [Speaker 2] (1:15:32 - 1:15:47) Yeah. My teachers, uh, in voice dialogue used to say that, like, if you were to say be yourself, what does that mean? We're so much more complex than just, okay, well, okay. Who am I now? This moment, like based on my trauma, you're asking me to be myself now. [Speaker 1] (1:15:47 - 1:16:03) I haven't, like you said, I haven't engaged in any inner work and traumatized. It's even from a HD perspective. If someone has, you know, confused the not self with, with, with the self themes and the be yourself and then just acting from not self, like confusing that for self. [Speaker 2] (1:16:04 - 1:16:27) That's the one thing I really like about human design too, is when you get into the open centers and you realize how conditioning distorts your thinking and your behavior is that you can take a look at that and you can reflect, you know, use it as information to reflect on, oh, wow, I do behave this way. I do think this way. Maybe this isn't supporting me living. Um, I guess the most uniquely as, you know, whatever that person I was born to be or evolve into. [Speaker 1] (1:16:27 - 1:18:02) Yeah, exactly. I remember when I got into human design, you know, as you guys have got, you know, some readings, I was studying it myself. It helped me definitely, uh, a lot. It helped me a lot, especially like the open center. I have an open G center, right? So I would say there's a, like always, you know, taking on other people's personalities or, or, or getting influenced by that and not finding my own on center, so to speak, literally. Right. So that helped, that understanding has helped me on my path as well. And then many other centers I'm very fixed, right? I have all the Ajna, the head and everything is fixed. So I'm definitely, you know, I'm on a, you know, uh, and then with being a manifesting generator, it's, you know, this can be forceful in that sense. Um, this has helped me as well. And then for example, with Laura, she has more open centers, right? And, and her approach and all of that. So it definitely, all of that. And then any other system as well, be it astrology gives you a better understanding of self, right? Of yourself. That's, that's the way I see these tools for self-knowledge, right? They are not ending themselves, but they help, um, the process for sure. I want to, I want to ask you this question per human design. I know that you and I share the same profile, you know, with the six two and I know with the six line, um, there's obviously three distinct phases, which are outlined for the journey of the six. Yeah. I believe you're in the third phase now. Is that some, is that role model phase, something that has been visible and noticeable for you playing out as you came into that? Yeah. Yes. Yes. So the first, um, 30 years or 28 years until first time on return, right? [Speaker 2] (1:18:02 - 1:18:05) That's the, they say roughly 30 years. [Speaker 1] (1:18:05 - 1:20:10) Yeah, definitely. My, also my first 30 were extremely chaotic for sure. And then for 30 to 50, they say is on the tin roof. You know, ironically, when I was in my thirties, early thirties, everything I did in my first year of my thirties completely disintegrated. You know, I came, I thought I was going to be a rock musician and I'll do that in my twenties that came crashing down. All of a sudden it became a body of worker. I move, I was living in Hollywood, you know, and, and, you know, with five musicians and then in Venice and we've had my own band and just touring and the clubs and all of that. All of a sudden within three, four years, I moved to Topanga Canyon into a cabinet by myself. Couldn't be more classical going on the roof. Right. So that's what happened. I had no idea of, of human design back then. And then all of a sudden everything shifted. I started body work at my own practice. I lost all my friends disconnected, but felt very aloof to everything. I couldn't connect literally. Right. And got into the work I'm doing now, started questioning all of that. And, um, you know, it's a hermit, the hermit face, right? Yeah. That's what six to teach a hermit teacher, a role model, hermit role model. Right. And then within that, the role model appeared, came out as well. Like I started, you know, people came to me asking for advice. I started my own coaching business. All of that just happened. It happened to me. I was not really planning on it. I just went along with it. Right. And, um, and interestingly, um, yeah. Uh, my Kion return, that's been still going on. It's a long return, but that's coming off the roof. And now my life has completely changed. I came off the roof, um, around the time, you know, when around the pandemic started, that's also when I married my wife, Laura, and we moved here to Sedona. Right. And have, it's a whole different life right now. And I can see it also how I relate to the outside world. It's different, right? It's, it's a different, complete different phase than the second phase. So I, I, that helped me a lot as well, understanding the profile six to right. And Laura, she's a five one. [Speaker 2] (1:20:10 - 1:20:12) And I can definitely see that I am as well. [Speaker 1] (1:20:12 - 1:27:32) I can see that in her as well. Exactly. The heretic, uh, what's it? Investigator. Investigator. Yes. Yeah. Thanks, man. Thanks for sharing that. Um, this is probably a big question and we didn't have long left, but I'm going to ask it anyway. There's a lot of obviously distortion around like manifestation and reality creation and things of that nature from your perspective, like what is true reality creation? Um, first of all, and always people say you create your own reality. Again, what you do you think is creating reality? What I, when I say I create reality, right? What, what, what is in charge? I think the illusion is that the ego personally may be in charge, right? So I'm always asking that we are infused by all kinds of unconscious drives, ideas, and actions that are not conscious. Right. And also we don't live in a bubble and like the life solipsism, right? Everything is interrelated. Uh, but there's truth to it, right? There's truth to an immediate reality that some, I quote unquote created. Um, I mean, it's definitely a big topic because I had to figure out from what angle to get it on, because it's definitely not as oversimplified as a new age trying to tell us, right. Of just, I, you know, I'm going to just visualize certain things and which can help too. I, I have worked with visualizations and all of these kinds of things just to kind of get an idea, but things quote unquote materialized, but not as rigidly as ever visualized. There's always divine will and higher will, right. And in accordance with that, and I think that's more alignment, I think true reality creation is based on the divine law as within, so without, that's a key point. So instead of just trying to visualize using your mind and thoughts and that's fine and good, that's more symptom management. Let's clear up the inner life, right? Come more and connect where you truly are your true self that connects you more with the higher, with divine will, which is what you really want to begin with. And then you have more access to creative power and hence more, uh, power to create reality or whatever you want to establish. Right. Um, I think there's definitely, you know, it ties also into the so-called law of attraction and that has been kind of abused as well, right? So to speak, but there's truth in that as well. We can have a lot of unconscious self-sabotage mechanisms because of unconscious beliefs and all of that, or again, trauma, shadow aspects and all that. But I think we are more powerful than we are. And I think what, from a matrix perspective, they, the bad guys are trying to create their reality through us, right? They hijack our impulse. That's Paul Levy talks about. There's a big deal with Vertigo that creates a counter, uh, fate, uh, uh, creation of ourselves and hijacks our creativity for its purpose. So we need to regain that. How do we regain it through our inner work? And I think Tom Montag, you guys had him on, right? Um, he said it really well. I agree with him. Like he even said, you know, once you really engage in their work and come in contact with who you're truly on and deep alignment, there's no need to engage in any manifestation techniques, uh, visually, all of that. And I've experienced it myself then, because then you're already in an alignment and create accordingly of what you truly want and according to divine will. And you have, um, actually more free will in that sense. You don't need to force your will onto the world. I mean, the, the issue with manifestation rituals, you can get yourself some trap of agreements, all kinds of stuff, you know, that's Tyson to black magic, a lot of new age people engage in black magic without knowing that with this, these reality creation techniques and all of that, not to get people into fear, paranoia, you can still use visualization like, Hey, it's an, it's important to have goals, aims, and all of that. Um, but I think the more you're coming from this place where you're attuned to your true self. And that's what I know when I have like, even I have all goals and aims and desires, absolutely. But the more I also have a non-attachment to them, the more likely it will also happen. It's, it's almost a contradiction. The more I have, I'm, I'm attached to them and have certain expectations, almost pushing it away. I don't know if that makes sense, but it does make sense. And that actually ties into one of like the more new age concepts, which is like, if you're in a place of wanting, it's not actually there. Like if there's the strong attachment and strong desire, like it's less likely to be created because it's not, you know, they would say it's like, it's, I, I am as opposed to I want. Exactly. So that's true. Again, even with the new age, as you can see, you have to have a nuance. You don't want to throw out the baby, the bathwater, right? There's truth in a lot of creation. That's true in the, how you create your own reality in the new age, they have kind of like oversimplified and all of that. And there's some distortions, but there's some truth in all of that. Right. But we do create reality, right. But it's more, the more we come to the inner work again, that's like the foundation, the more we can do in that and really know ourselves, what part is an action, right. Then we have more control over what we want to create for ourselves and for the world. That's really what it comes down to. Yeah. And I love what you said in terms of, you know, like what Tom Montauk mentioned in terms of, you know, just connecting with one's true self, because on some level, like when we try to bend reality to our will and really be determined about what we actually want, like we're assuming that we know what's better for us than like God or the divine might want for us. And like, what can be created or quote unquote, manifested in one's life can be so much greater than what you can even possibly visualize or imagine for oneself when you just do the inner work, walk the authentic path, connect to oneself. And I think about this in my own life, like there was a point in my life where, you know, I was like very down in the dumps, you know, pretty much succumbed to like a reality that didn't feel aligned or authentic by many means. But in that frame of mind, I could never have visualized what I have now and what I'm experiencing now and where I sit now, what I'm experiencing now is far greater than what I could possibly imagine for myself. Yeah. God knows you better than you knew. No, you know, right. And then, you know, I remember like in my band days, in my twenties, I did all I got in the nineties and Anthony Robbins and Awakening Giant Within and three month goal, six month goal visualizations. I got into Abram Hicks and, you know, and all of that. I totally bought into that. I bought into the secret. I watched the DVD 10 times back in the, like we came out, like, you know, just did all the visualization with my band around. None of that manifested, right. I had some success, but then it was all ripped away from me because God, like when I went on the roof, God, no, you got to do this. Boom. Right. You cannot go against the divine will either. And by the way, that reminds me, that's why I appreciate human design, especially as a generator, right? Because as a generator, it is not about don't push your will, like respond, respond to life more. And it doesn't mean just sitting back and in on the couch, but that's like, if you really follow your strategy, your strategy, that's your alignment of divine will. [Speaker 2] (1:27:32 - 1:28:21) Yeah. That's what I wanted to bring up too. I'm happy that you mentioned human design because even before I knew human design, I realized that I was honoring my strategy and authority without even knowing what it was to some degree. And I think it's the rigidity of the manifestation practices that keeps people from, you know, I guess going along with God's degree. You know, it's just so rigid. You know, I'm going to, my band's going to be successful. I'm going to make a million dollars versus like, like you're, you're going along, like you're doing what's necessary. You're doing the work. You're, you're building more psychic hygiene. You know, you're working on your health. You're trusting that inner intuition or whatever that thing is, you know, human design would say you're trusting your authority. And it's just like one thing leads you to the next thing leads you to the next thing. And all of a sudden you have this life and you're like, wow, that felt like magic. [Speaker 1] (1:28:22 - 1:28:22) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:28:22 - 1:28:30) I mean, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean it wasn't hard and you didn't have to go through multiple dark nights of the soul and, and, and, and feel struggle and pain. [Speaker 1] (1:28:31 - 1:28:59) But there's like, there's like a, it's very, it's like an orchestra. There's something so beautiful to it when you can reflect on. Yeah. Didn't he, Ra, what's his name? Ra-oo-Ra? Yeah, Ra-oo-Ra. Didn't he also say, he also said, remember that your mind is the enemy, right? The mind just complicates things. Well, again, because from, from the not self standpoint is that like, you can't just say trust your mind because the mind gets distorted through the open centers. And so a person really needs to be mindful. [Speaker 2] (1:28:59 - 1:29:10) Like, what am I thinking? Why am I behaving this way? Like I mentioned earlier, because you're, you're, you're almost being taken over from the, by the not self, which is why the decision-making process from human design is much more somatic. [Speaker 1] (1:29:10 - 1:29:15) It's much more intuitive. It's much more connected to what's happening on a deeper level. [Speaker 2] (1:29:15 - 1:29:29) Now, of course, you know, the mind's important. We have to be able to think, teach, learn, you know, compare, contrast, but there's just another mechanism in place that I think guides us, uh, in a more, um, aligned manner. That's all, that's what I've found in my life. [Speaker 1] (1:29:29 - 1:30:07) Yeah, just exactly. We need to use the mind, obviously, but don't, don't make it your master. You know, it's not the best place to make quote unquote decisions from. You can weigh pros and cons, but ultimately, you know, what I was reminded of when you truly engaged in the work, and I can relate to that. Even when I got late on the human design or whatnot, I've similar to you. Oh, I actually have been following my authority and, uh, and, and strategy already. I just need to trust it more. Right. And the more you do the inner work, don't, you will naturally do that without even knowing the systems as well. Right. I think the dangers now, then you can make the systems into mindfuck and then like, you know, overanalyze analysis, paralysis, and all of that. Right. [Speaker 2] (1:30:08 - 1:30:43) Yeah, I agree. There has to be like a natural flow that's happening within you. When you feel confident and grounded in who you are as an individual and all the complexity, you know, that you're not living moment to moment. So self-conscious. Oh, I did this. I should have did this because this is my sign or this is my human design. Like that you're not, you're not living in accordance to like, or in connection to the, the divine, you know, when, when there's so much self-consciousness, there's so much self-centers, there's so much, um, you know, confusion that's happening as opposed to like, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm living my life. Okay. I'll deal with that. [Speaker 1] (1:30:44 - 1:31:27) Yeah. But it just reminds me, you hit another important point. I mean, you could go on and on, but, um, easy this work, you know, when you do an inner work or getting into all these systems, human design, astrology, uh, when spiritual or psychological inner work becomes very narcissistic, right. It's all about me, my wounds, this and that. And then you actually lose, you forget like the, uh, the whole meaning of purpose of it all, you know? And I think that's kind of, a lot of people can get entrapped, uh, when, uh, um, you know, even with manifestation and all of that finding good, but when that's when the ego can also easily overtake it all. Right. And it becomes a narcissistic practice when it's all about you. [Speaker 2] (1:31:28 - 1:31:47) Yeah. And this is the duality piece that's important in so many areas that we're talking about. Like, even just like this, so serious, personal growth is so serious. That's like, where's the play, you know, where's the play, where's the lightness, where's the like laughing at yourself too. Like with some of the things that have happened in your life, there has to be that dance. [Speaker 1] (1:31:48 - 1:34:36) Yeah. And that's true. I mean, like, you know, I'm, I'm a pretty private person. So as Laura, you know, people can conceive our work as pretty serious out there, but we have a lot of fun. Like my Laura, she's the funniest person ever. I mean, her memes and jokes anyway, but in everyday life of our dog, right. I mean, we're cracking ourselves up all the time. It's, I absolutely agree with you. You gotta, you know, as I like to say, besides, you know, cutting the weeds in the garden, you know, dealing with the wounded inner child, you also need to smell the flowers, which is getting into the joy of the inner child. So we need that. Sure. For sure. We've drifted a little bit, but I just want to touch on something, because you hinted at a very important fallacy about this new age manifestation thing, which is in most cases, it's motivated from a place of scarcity and lack initially, right? Whereas I think reality, real manifestation or reality creation or abundance, whatever, is going to come when you recognize the inner riches that are already present. And you come from a place of abundance and bounteousness within initially, not the, not the lack and I need, I want, et cetera. And what is that place? This abundance consciousness is in, when you're grounded in your true self. Yeah. That's the quote unquote secret of reality creation, because once you're that, then you feel abundant to all that is because a lot of, um, so-called rich people have a lot of stuff. They actually don't live in abundance consciousness. They can also come from scarcity consciousness and they are terrified and they need to hold on and grasp need more and more need to show it off because they get their sense of value through that stuff. Right. But it's based on scarcity consciousness, abundance consciousness, you're really grounded and you're already fulfilled as it is, but then it opens up the flow as well of money and whatever you want. I can experience it in my own life. Right. And then on that note, people don't ask where do your desires come from to begin with, because they can be compensations, trauma responses as well. Right. Uh, and, and, and all of that. So we need to also question that first of all, like people never ask that, you know, when, uh, when they do their manifestation techniques, where do your desires come from? Why do you want what you want? Right. To begin with. And, um, and that's still like, I can see it in myself, like whenever, like I want certain things, I really like certain things. I want to manifest them, but also I don't want to get too attached to them. Is it like, is, you know, um, in the sense of just basing my whole value on them. Right. Uh, but I agree with you, ultimately you want to come be in a true state of like, I am already fulfilled and have it all as it is in the present moment. And that needs to be integrated in your whole being and not just a thought. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like an end at the mirror. Like I have everything I want, you know, all these affirmations that work on some level, but it's just superficial level. Right. [Speaker 2] (1:34:36 - 1:34:46) And even, even the painful stuff, like, can you take ownership of it? Like, these are mine. These are my issues. This is my pain. Not like, Oh, I don't want to experience this. Why am I experiencing this right now? This is, this is not good. [Speaker 1] (1:34:46 - 1:36:09) But like, even within, within that, within the acceptance of reality, there's abundance consciousness. The resistance of the pain creates more pain. The resistance of a situation makes it even worse. Right. That's why I'm example. I mean, it's, it's many other, but the same sound with the taxes. I hate it. I resist that anxiety around it all the time. Now I accept it. I'm like, okay, it's all good. You know, and it goes much easier, much smoother. And, and, and, and it opens the flow. It opens the flow. You know, exactly. So that, that's the key point. And, um, because we need to, especially nowadays, I see this, I mean, this is so rampant, also the truth and movement, right? Like, uh, I'm sure you guys experienced that as well. Uh, the whole scarcity consciousness or attacking people for charging and all of that, and everything should be free and all of that. And, um, and it's something I had to work through within myself for many years, right. And really finding the balance, but ultimately, you know, coming to a place where you already grounded in this abundance consciousness. Right. That's the key point. Yeah. But not, obviously we could keep going for a long time, man. Um, but thank you so much for being here. Just appreciate who you are and the way you show up and the wisdom and the unique way which you disseminate a man. It's I'm grateful for it personally. Excellent. Thank you guys so much. I'm great to see you guys, you know? Yeah, man. [Speaker 2] (1:36:09 - 1:36:15) I've loved your work over the years. I love your writing. You know, you've, you've so much to offer and such that I appreciate you appreciate Laura. [Speaker 1] (1:36:16 - 1:37:42) Yeah. And on that note, man, please let our audience know how they can best, I guess, get in contact with you, your work, what you guys have going on and anything you'd like to share. Yeah. Uh, basically again, my website contains all veil of reality.com, right? All my writings, videos on there, our podcast. We have also Lauren and I have a podcast, the Cosmic Medics podcast. You can find on my website also Spotify and all that. Um, we keep doing our program. We have ongoing about it, sort of awakening 40 week coaching program. We have a couple of times a year. Um, and, uh, we have many other people can check that out at the time of transition.com. And then I keep making new courses and little masterclasses here and there. Who knows, right? Like what life brings as I was, I'm saying, I'm just going along. Um, because it's, it's beautiful. I mean, you guys can see it in yourself as well. You know, I'm sure four or five years ago when somebody told you you're doing what you're doing, you probably would not like, what? Yeah. Who knows in the positive sense. And then also like, who knows? We are like, it's what's made. Like it's, things are heating up. I'm curious with the whole election thing. I'm like, whatever's happening in the world. Again, I'm a more healthy detachment. Right. And whether it's all about riding the wave, right. That's what it comes down to. Yep. And, um, having fun while doing it. Awesome, man. We'll put those links in the show notes for anyone that wants to connect and thanks for listening. Everyone. Awesome. Thanks so much guys.