Mark Gober Ibogaine: a Brutal and Evolutionary Experience

Mark 00:00:00.320 - 00:00:02.240 Can you guys hear any background noise by any chance? Joel 00:00:02.400 - 00:00:02.800 No. Yerasimos 00:00:03.280 - 00:00:03.680 No. Joel 00:00:04.080 - 00:00:05.520 You're good, Mark. Yerasimos 00:00:05.520 - 00:00:06.400 Over in the house. Joel 00:00:06.720 - 00:00:25.920 Ladies and gentlemen, the return of the man, the myth, the legend, Mark Gober himself. For his fourth appearance on Here for the Truth. He previously joined us on episode 133, 162, and 203. Critically acclaimed author of seven books at this point in time, I believe. How are you, bro? Mark 00:00:27.430 - 00:00:31.190 I'm doing well. Awesome to be with you guys. Thanks for having me back. Yerasimos 00:00:31.510 - 00:00:43.270 This is great to have you back, man. It's so good to see your face. I'm looking forward to catching up, looking forward to having a conversation, looking forward to getting deep, maybe talking a little. We'll see what happens to you. We'll see. Mark 00:00:43.510 - 00:00:43.990 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:00:44.150 - 00:00:45.030 How have you been? Mark 00:00:45.190 - 00:00:45.510 Yeah. Joel 00:00:45.510 - 00:00:46.150 What's happening? Mark 00:00:47.190 - 00:00:48.390 I'm in Austin now. Yerasimos 00:00:48.550 - 00:00:49.110 Okay. Mark 00:00:49.110 - 00:00:58.000 Which is great. There's a lot of good energy here. Just got back from an ibogaine clinic in Mexico. Yerasimos 00:00:58.560 - 00:00:59.040 Whoa. Mark 00:00:59.120 - 00:01:01.320 Two weeks ago, did you. Yerasimos 00:01:01.320 - 00:01:05.360 Did you take ibogaine, a boga or whatever? Like, what is that? Joel 00:01:05.600 - 00:01:06.160 I did. Mark 00:01:06.960 - 00:01:10.160 It is. Some people call it the Mount Everest psychedelics. Joel 00:01:10.880 - 00:01:11.440 Okay. Mark 00:01:11.760 - 00:01:23.460 It comes from an African root, and whereas ayahuasca is known as, like, the crown plant, taking you to the other worlds. Iboga. Ibogaine is the alkaloid, takes you to the root. Joel 00:01:25.700 - 00:01:26.380 Focus through it. Yerasimos 00:01:26.380 - 00:01:26.660 Super. Mark 00:01:26.820 - 00:01:27.780 I mean, intense. Yerasimos 00:01:27.940 - 00:01:48.810 Well, let us know, because I remember when I was, you know, when I did ayahuasca in 2009, I went to Peru, but I was reading up about, you know, plant medicine back then, and I remember coming across iboga or ibo. Ibogaine is up again, like the. The. The chemical in it or something. But then is the boga, the plant. I forget exactly what it was. I remember reading about it, and it was pretty trippy. Mark 00:01:49.050 - 00:02:06.650 Yeah. Boga is an African root, and it has many different alkaloids in it. One of the key alkaloids is known as ibogaine. So there are clinics that extract out just the ibogaine, and it's not the full iboga experience. So there are some differences, but they're both super intense. I've never done iboga. Joel 00:02:07.210 - 00:02:07.690 Okay. Yerasimos 00:02:07.690 - 00:02:08.090 Whoa. Joel 00:02:08.250 - 00:02:12.810 So what. What drew you to go and do this and tell us about your experience? Mark 00:02:13.700 - 00:05:49.750 Yeah, I actually heard about ibogaine for the first time 10 years ago when I was listening to podcasts before my spiritual awakening. This was. If your audience isn't familiar with my story, I was working in Silicon Valley at the time, and prior to that, I was in investment banking in New York. I was Just very. Had a very mainstream life and hit a wall where the ups and downs of the business world, personal life, I wasn't able to withstand them anymore because I felt like I was on a treadmill and I had no meaning or purpose in life. I just thought we lived in a random and meaningless universe and when you die, that's the end. And if you really believe that, it's hard to continue in a challenging lifestyle, which is one that I was pursuing, of constant putting myself, constantly putting myself in difficult situations, especially in the professional world. So I was in this very low spot in 2016 and I just turned 30. And for those who know astrology, that's known as the Saturn return era, which I didn't know about at the time, where things can really get shaken up. But a buddy of mine, in early 2016, I believe it was, sent me a Tim Ferriss podcast. And it was Mark Andreessen, who's a famous venture capitalist at the time. Podcasts were newer and I was like, this is so cool. You can just on your phone listen to these smart people talk. So I listened to more of Tim Ferriss's shows and he was talking about psychedelics. And I was not ready to do anything. Nothing pharmaceutical, nothing psychedelic. But I was fascinated that people could take these substances and have major shifts in their psychology. And I remember hearing an episode where Tim Ferriss had a few people on, and one of them, his name is Martin Polanco, talking about ibogaine and how it was helping vets with ptsd, incredible results. So I was super intrigued. And there was a part of me that said I should do this, but I was nowhere near ready for it. And then fast forward, later that year, I learned about the science of spirituality, the science of consciousness, the idea that the afterlife is not just a fantasy, that there's actually science to suggest that that's real and there's a spiritual dimension to our existence, that's not just a secondary thing. It's actually really fundamental and foundational to life. So that was my big aha, pivotal moment in 2016. And it led me on this path to eventually leave my firm after making it to partner. And now there are seven books examining the nature of reality to varying degrees. And I'd always been thinking about the psychedelic topic just personally and. And it came up in my research a lot because there were similarities where, let's say someone had a near death experience and they would come back saying I entered a different dimension of consciousness where I experienced directly that the divine is real, that love is embedded within reality itself. We are spiritual beings. There's an afterlife and all that. And people who came back from psychedelic accounts wouldn't describe identical things. There are differences between psychedelics and near death experiences, but some similar facets of reality they were coming back with. So this has been on my radar for a while as a researcher. And I began. Came on my radar multiple times since that first initiation 10 years ago where I learned about it. A friend of mine went to this clinic, the one I went to, it's called beyond spelled B E O N D in Cancun, and just said she had never seen transformation like that anywhere else. And then it came on my radar a few other times last year. We're in 2026 now, so this is in 2025 and heard such great reports. And I was like, I'm here for the truth. Yerasimos 00:05:52.470 - 00:05:53.270 I'm here for the experience. Mark 00:05:53.670 - 00:06:01.430 I'm here. Well, we'll get into this because I think ibogaine's here for the truth. I didn't realize it, but yeah, I, I thought this is. Yerasimos 00:06:01.430 - 00:06:04.430 When were you in Cancun? Joel was just there. When were you in Cancun? Mark 00:06:04.430 - 00:06:06.070 I was just there. I left two weeks ago. Yerasimos 00:06:06.310 - 00:06:07.150 Oh, gotcha. Okay. Joel 00:06:07.150 - 00:06:08.750 I was there last week. Okay. Mark 00:06:08.750 - 00:06:10.870 But when you go to this clinic, you don't leave the compound. Yerasimos 00:06:11.110 - 00:06:11.670 Yeah. Joel 00:06:12.390 - 00:06:12.710 And. Mark 00:06:12.710 - 00:07:08.500 And many of the people there are opiate addicts, alcoholics, P. Ptsd, like a lot of serious stuff. It feels very much like a rehab facility, but they, it's. It's a healing center in every way. So that's where I was. And yeah, it just felt like the right time and it felt like there were just things in my development that I wanted to overcome. And I've been trying so many things over the last 10 years and I hadn't tried that. And it, the fact that it kept coming into my sphere and there was an opening there because it's a pretty small clinic, I decided to go for it. And just before we get into this, because I've talked about psychedelics over the years, I'm very cautious on it still. Yeah, I think it depends on the person, the substance, the environment, the intent, if all those things are in place. This is incredible medicine and can really teach you and, and help evolve your consciousness, but if not used properly, it can be dangerous as well. So I want to give that. Joel 00:07:08.500 - 00:07:10.220 Yes, no, I think. Yerasimos 00:07:10.220 - 00:08:04.480 Yeah, we've had, we've had. Yeah, thank you for that. And we've, we've had multiple conversations on this podcast about this. I have. You Know, I have my opinions that I have on, on psychedelics and plant medicine, and I tend to agree. I think they can have benefit. I think a lot of people just kind of like, jump on the bandwagon as, like, this is the panacea to all my, my problems. And I'm a shaman now because I took ayahuasca once. And, you know, I think depending on the set, the setting where you're at, from a psychological standpoint, from a nervous system standpoint, you know, this is something that can have a benefit. And it has, it has had benefits because it's like I've had, I've experienced the benefit even as someone who speaks, you know, like, not like, total, like, support of psychedelics. You know, I've, I've had good, good experiences, you know, many years ago. And so, you know, it depends on the person and what they, you know, what they go through. So looking forward to hearing your experience on it. Joel 00:08:04.480 - 00:08:33.410 And just, just for the context of the audience. I've never had a deep psychedelic experience. I've done psilocybin recreationally a couple times. I attended a parody ceremony once a couple years ago, but nothing happened. So just so everyone is aware of that. On that front, before we go into your experience, are you willing to share, like, the, I guess, the blockage or the thing that you were struggling to overcome? Are you willing to go into that a little bit in vague terms? Mark 00:08:33.730 - 00:10:00.480 Yeah, directionally, it's. I want to get to the highest level of evolution that I can. And there are various feelings of anxiety or just general blockage where I feel like I'm not living my fullest self. Maybe this is a way to answer your question, Joel. Beyond center in Cancun, they do a great job of this, of you set an intention with the medicine before you go into the ceremony. Because I, I, I really, I realize this now. This is a very sacred thing, if it's done properly. And it's a divine intelligence that is blowing me away, what it was able to do. But the four intentions I set, I said, show me how to serve God. And when I say God, I mean whatever it is that's the benevolent source of all reality and whatever you take that to be. And the word God typically represents that. So show me how to serve God, show me how to love myself, show me how to receive and give love, and show me how to be fully authentic. And then I said, show me any blocks getting in the way of any of those. And to me, that felt like the biggest bang for my buck in terms of any issue that was coming up in life, it would relate to one of those things. And all four of them are interrelated. Show me how to serve God. Show me how to love myself. Show me how to receive and give love. Show me how to be fully authentic. And so that that's the answer, Joel, is that there are elements in all those areas where I felt like I can be better. Joel 00:10:00.640 - 00:10:05.890 Yeah, understood, bro. Thank you. So how'd you go? Yerasimos 00:10:06.530 - 00:10:25.090 Yeah, let us know. Well, and also, like, I mean, after while you go into this, like thinking about how you felt before and then how you felt after. And it's been what, like two weeks now. And so how like the reintegration phase into reality and is have things settled, do you notice, like a visceral, like, wow, I feel different. Mark 00:10:26.290 - 00:11:44.670 I think we should set some context here because the variety of experiences is vast and whatever I speak about is unique to me. The counselors there were very clear on this is like every person's on their own journey. And just because I had a certain experience doesn't mean another person does. I know someone who went to the same center and had zero experience at all. That happens to a small percentage of people. It doesn't mean the medicine isn't doing something. It just means that was the interaction with the physiology. There are other people. I had a brutal experience, which we'll talk about. Very evolutionary, but brutal. There were other people there who on the surface you would have thought they had a really tough life and their experiences were mild and super pleasant. So I think that's important to set the context here. And also I'm just a few weeks out and this is going to be a multi month, perhaps a lifetime worth of integration because of the amount that came out. So I want to give the caveat that what I'm saying today is based on my view, a few weeks out and it could change. So I'm going to try to keep things as general as possible. And I'm saying this stuff really not to advocate for psychedelics as much as whatever learnings came out of this that could be helpful to your audience. That's the way I'm going to talk about it. And also to the extent that there are other people involved in the journey, whether it's like people in my life, family, I don't feel it's right to bring up specifics about them. But if it, if it relates to me, I'm more comfortable with that. Joel 00:11:44.670 - 00:11:45.150 Thanks. Yerasimos 00:11:45.150 - 00:11:45.550 Great. Joel 00:11:45.870 - 00:11:48.990 And is this the seeds of the end of upside down psychedelics? Mark 00:11:50.270 - 00:11:51.710 I'm not working on a buck, guys. Yerasimos 00:11:53.630 - 00:12:22.450 Every time. It's so funny, dude. Every time you bring up like a subject, like even just before you were like, yeah, I was listening to this podcast and then I was in my Saturn return. Immediately I go like an end to upside down astrology. Like, I just feel like I like add the word to an end upside down every time you talk. Because it's like, it just feels that way, dude. You just like, a subject takes you and you're just like, I'm writing a book about it, which is amazing. Like, you're. One of your gifts in the world is what you've given the last several years. So, yeah, anyway, it did you. Joel 00:12:24.280 - 00:12:33.280 By the way, we had no idea that Mark had this experience before having this podcast. We're learning this for the first time with you guys as well. So all that being said, bro, tell us more. Mark 00:12:33.280 - 00:12:47.880 Yeah, and normally I, I think an older version of me wouldn't have wanted to talk about this, but I think it's part of entering a state of authenticity and service. And if I see there's real value in things that I can express, that is something I want to do. Yerasimos 00:12:48.040 - 00:12:49.960 You're here for the truth, bro. You're here for the truth. Mark 00:12:50.310 - 00:12:53.430 Here for the truth. And I'm on here for the truth. This is a very specific audience too. Yerasimos 00:12:53.750 - 00:12:54.550 Yeah, yeah. Mark 00:12:55.430 - 00:15:09.950 But my experience with psychedelics prior to this was fairly limited. I mean, I had had some more recent experiences with psilocybin more than anything else, and a little in a therapeutic setting with MDMA ketamine. To me, ibogaine is a different level. Like, it's mega growth, mega Here for the truth. At this point, I'm almost like an ibogaine absolutist maximalist that if someone wants to experience personal growth and you have the financial means to do it and you have the time to dedicate and to carve out of your life. And also if you don't have any health issues, that could be a danger, which is something you have to look out for, then this is the ultimate medicine. The way it works at beyond the center I went to is there's a flood dose, which is the maximum safe amount they can give you. And then depending on what you're dealing with, there are supplemental doses. So they're not. It's not the full flood amount. And I had one supplemental dose. So I had two doses in a 10 day period. And the first dose itself wasn't even until day five. And they do a great job at the center of doing coaching, massages acupuncture, getting your mindset in the right place. What all the people there said, the people who are the guests, is that once you commit to this medicine, it starts working with you. I felt that too. Once you make the commitment, things start to shift in ways that are unique to you. So it's almost. Almost like the journey starts when you commit, and then it. I don't even know when it ends. Once you've communed with this intelligence, I think it's probably always there as a teacher in some way. But those journeys are very impactful because a lot can happen. And the way I would describe it, for me, again, it's different for every person. My experience was not like anyone else's that I experienced there, although every single person that went through this protocol was way more peaceful and way happier on the other side. Like, pretty mind blowing to watch the transformations of people that were really struggling. And it was the same thing of, like, this peace and calm afterwards. Granted, it was within the period that they were there. And there's integration, which I want to talk about afterwards. Joel 00:15:11.630 - 00:15:14.350 How long was the whole period at the sensor? What was the length? Mark 00:15:14.430 - 00:15:35.350 For me, it was 10 days. There's some people that do 14 days, depending on what you're dealing with. With people who have chemical addiction, because of the way ibogaine works on the receptors, apparently you might need more time there and more time also to deal with the withdrawal. It's a bit more complex. I don't have chemical dependency. So, yeah, 10 days there and two days with the medicine. Yerasimos 00:15:35.750 - 00:15:43.350 Yeah. When I first came across it, reading about it, it was a lot of people that were dealing with chemical dependency that they found that it helped them with that. So. Joel 00:15:44.150 - 00:15:47.030 So you. You were there for 10 days before you took the medicine? Mark 00:15:47.270 - 00:15:50.710 I was there for 10 days total. My first medicine dose was day five. Joel 00:15:50.710 - 00:15:51.110 Okay. Mark 00:15:51.110 - 00:15:52.790 And then there was one more three days after. Joel 00:15:52.790 - 00:15:53.350 Okay. Mark 00:15:55.350 - 00:18:47.220 Yeah. So the flood dose, I mean, what. So what's interesting about ibogaine is that there is real health risk, which is that if you have heart issues, it can be fatal, potentially. So when you get to the center, they do an EKG on your heart, and when you're in the medicine, you have an IV hooked up. They're monitoring your heart, There's a blood pressure monitor. So it does feel a bit like a medical setting. And there are nurses there watching you the whole time and doctors coming in to check the stuff. But by the time you're getting the medicine, you've been evaluated pretty closely. But still, I mean, I'M sitting there in Mexico doing ibogaine and I'm like, am I really doing this? Am I really here for the truth? And I, I pushed through. But of course those thoughts go through my mind. And I heard this from a lot of other people too. This is a really serious thing. And for me, when the medicine kicked in within 30 minutes, I was like, no, I don't, I want to leave, I don't want to do this. Yeah, very unpleasant feelings come up. And that had not come up in my other limited experiences where it was much more just awesome. Took me to places that felt highly spiritual. But I think the purpose of these medicines is not just to reside in the spiritual realm. I think we always have one foot there, but it's to, to show us the way so that we can embody it. And that's how I. That's how I really interpreted this experience where it was showing me stuff. And the way I would summarize it before getting into any specifics is that somehow this substance was able to know me better than I know me and pull up memories in almost a life review format. And parts of my life that I had forgotten about. No major traumas in my life that were just emerged for some people that happens, but just kind of filling in parts of my life that are really important to understand myself. Especially if you think about parts work and ifs internal family systems to understand the origin of these parts that are protective but are not really relevant anymore because I've grown outgrown them. All that stuff was surfaced. So it's almost like a Polaroid picture where there were certain parts that were blurry that had been filled in with the pixels because of this medicine. And it felt like a divine intelligence and it felt also like a teacher. So when I work with all kinds of healers and therapists over the last 10 years, I've tried basically everything. And you could sit across from a person who can reflect things back to you, but it's very different in when you have something that's inside your psyche, pulling it up and not letting you leave the topics that are most uncomfortable, it's like, no, no, no, we're staying on this and making you feel it. So that was the experience for me when I ingested it. Of course, the way it works there is you express your intentions into it, which I think helps. But I also gave a clear intention beyond that, which is don't hold back. I want to get as much out of this as possible. So whatever needs to happen, I'm. I'm. Here for it real quickly. Yerasimos 00:18:47.220 - 00:19:33.810 I want to jump in there, man, because I think it's important. I love that you brought up ifs and parts work. Obviously, you know, I'm into parts work. We talk about parts work on this, on this podcast. And I feel very fortunate that I had training in parts work. It wasn't ifs for, you know, some years before I did my. I went down to Peru and did six ayahuasca ceremonies in nine days. You know, because understanding a certain level of yourself and the architecture of the psyche, I think allows you. When you go on these experiences and these things come up and bubble up, you can kind of like understand. Even though it can be extremely painful and scary, you can kind of like understand where things are coming from by having like this general framework that was. That's my opinion of it. I'm not sure what if you feel similarly or not. Mark 00:19:35.170 - 00:19:46.870 I had heard about it and had sort of worked with it loosely, but now I just get it on a different level because I experience the parts directly and see how they have influenced my behavior and how they can be recontextualized. Joel 00:19:46.870 - 00:19:48.950 Hey, Brian, do you ingest it? Mark 00:19:50.390 - 00:19:51.310 Pill format. Joel 00:19:51.310 - 00:19:51.910 Okay. Mark 00:19:53.270 - 00:20:00.470 You swallow pills and the way that works with the blood dose is, I believe it's based on your body weight. They give you the maximum safe amount. Yerasimos 00:20:01.670 - 00:20:02.950 How long has it been around? Mark 00:20:06.800 - 00:20:07.840 I'm not sure how many years. Yerasimos 00:20:08.160 - 00:20:08.720 Okay. Mark 00:20:09.040 - 00:23:24.380 Exactly. But it is. From everything I've come across, it is like the best. There's another place called Ambio in Tijuana, which I've also heard good things about, but I can only say positive things about beyond the entire staff there, from the coaches, the massage therapists, the backup chefs, the nursing staff, I mean, they're devoted to healing. For me, it was a model of how you do healing and happens to be centered around a medicine. But it's really a healing center. It's remarkable. Very cool. So, yeah, in the flood dose, I. I knew pretty quickly it was going to be uncomfortable. I was ready to get out. There's a phenomenon that kicks in with high dose ibogaine. It's called ataxia, where you basically can't move very well. So if you have to get up to go to the bathroom, especially since you're hooked up to an iv, it can be complicated and you have someone to like walk you. But I was actually kind of restless the whole time. Sometimes people, they're sitting there and they just like all of a sudden it's nine hours later and they, they feel great. I was restless Kept taking off my blindfold mask and the headphones on. And I was just feeling all this uncomfortable stuff. And one of the first things I was shown was basically self loathing, how hard I was on myself for so many years because I had a standard of perfection that I wouldn't let go of. And anytime that I came, I fell short of that. I wouldn't let go of the shortcoming. So there was this accumulation of stuff that I hadn't let go of. And I kind of knew that. But it made me really confronted from a different perspective. And it took me to a place that I would just. I don't know what to call it other than a divine lens. Wherever I was, it felt very clear that it's eternal and it's the source of all reality. And I felt like I was a part of that. And it was the most familiar place I've ever been to. Very obviously true. I had experienced that in one other journey for a shorter amount of time with Ibogaine. He kept me there for hours. So, I mean, I've written about this stuff more as a researcher, but to have a direct experience of something so obvious and familiar is powerful. But it was from that lens that I was basically shown elements of my life where it was pulling up memories and it showed me self love. I actually didn't know what self love was until I had this experience. Now I look at self love as viewing your physical character. Mark your osmos, Joel. Viewing that from the divine eyes. So you're looking at yourself almost through the eyes of a third party. And that third party is highly compassionate. So you look at it was showing me movies of myself. Look how awesome that guy is over there. Oh, look over there. He's struggling. Let's have compassion for what he's dealing with. I didn't understand that before. And in the integration, I mean it's. It's way easier when you're in that divine place or wherever I was to have the self love and the integration is to try to remember that and practice it. But it's way harder when you come back into your body and the old operating system is still there, even though there's a fresher operating system in tandem. And that's part of how you integrate. But I was shown that very clearly and that was super powerful. So I think this term self love, we hear it all the time in personal development. I think it's a misnomer. It's really not descriptive in my. In my view. And I'll just pause there. Yerasimos 00:23:26.700 - 00:23:28.940 I'm Just enjoying hearing about your experience, man. Mark 00:23:29.420 - 00:23:31.020 Yeah, you keep going. Yerasimos 00:23:31.420 - 00:23:36.420 Yeah, I just want, I kind of want you to keep going. I don't really have any, any questions to follow up with right now. Mark 00:23:36.420 - 00:23:37.740 Yeah, and I'm just trying to answer. Yerasimos 00:23:37.740 - 00:23:49.380 I have one. I have one. What's the setting like? Like what, are you in a room? Is there like a, like a couch? Like are you, are you in the jungle? What's up? How does it look like at Beyond? Mark 00:23:49.380 - 00:24:07.530 For the flood dose, they have a room where there are maximum of three people there at once and there are dividers. So you're in your own little setting. But it feels hospital esque in terms of all the equipment that's on you. But also it feels pretty psychedelic because the lights they have in the room and lights on the ceiling. So there were other people there in. Yerasimos 00:24:07.530 - 00:24:09.330 The room with me for both doses. Mark 00:24:10.530 - 00:24:31.210 For the flood dose, it's just three people in that room. The supplemental doses, it's much more casual. You're just seated in a comfortable chair for two hours. In a different room, it's. You don't have the same kind of ataxia. After about two hours you can get up and I don't remember how many seats there are. Depending on the cycles of who's getting what doses. Maybe five people could be getting supplemental doses at once. Yerasimos 00:24:31.210 - 00:24:40.670 Are there, are there like plants? Oh, well, you're wearing a blindfold, right? So I was wondering if. Is there plants and trees? Does it make it look like nice and welcoming but if you're like blindfolded then it doesn't really matter? Mark 00:24:40.750 - 00:24:43.390 Yeah, I don't remember all the details. There was a walk through before. Joel 00:24:43.950 - 00:24:44.510 Okay. Mark 00:24:44.830 - 00:24:45.230 But. Joel 00:24:47.070 - 00:24:49.990 Interior landscape, what was, what was. Yerasimos 00:24:49.990 - 00:24:57.870 The, what was the, was it wood flooring and what was the tile from Italy? I'm really curious about the architecture of the room. Were there beams in the ceiling? Mark 00:24:58.830 - 00:25:10.080 They had lights on the ceiling that looked psychedelic, that were very intentional and at the center you can tell they put a lot of intent into that room. But it's also a medical setting, some medical clinic and serious. They want to make sure everyone's healthy. Yerasimos 00:25:10.800 - 00:25:17.120 Were people wearing white coats or were they, were they like. No, we, we don't want to come across as like the priests of the white coat class. Mark 00:25:17.760 - 00:25:19.680 I don't remember exactly what they were wearing. Yerasimos 00:25:19.680 - 00:25:20.120 Okay, continue. Mark 00:25:20.120 - 00:25:41.550 I was a little distracted. And also the senses are get a little distorted and intensified with ibogaine. So you hear things that are actually far away, but it feels like it's right next to you. So it'd Be very distracting. Someone on the other side of the journey room might whisper something. And I take my mask off. Like, are they talking? Is this the nurse talking to me? And they're really far away, and apparently it's a common thing. Joel 00:25:41.710 - 00:25:42.150 Wow. Yerasimos 00:25:42.150 - 00:25:43.870 So your senses are heightened. Mark 00:25:44.190 - 00:25:45.630 Senses are heightened for sure. Joel 00:25:45.790 - 00:25:46.270 Yeah. Mark 00:25:46.510 - 00:25:57.310 And again, my own experience, it was highly somatic. And that's how these medicines have been for me. They've always been like somatic releases and anything. Anything. Joel 00:25:57.950 - 00:26:04.110 Sorry. Go ahead, Joel, Anything more you want to say on self love as a misnomer? You want to expand on that at all before we keep going? Mark 00:26:06.830 - 00:26:19.990 I don't think I have any more to say, but what I said, I mean, that's something I'm going to be meditating on for the rest of my life. And I'm sure your audience can too, because how we view ourselves is really fundamental to life. I mean, you're awesome. Joel 00:26:19.990 - 00:26:20.270 Most. Mark 00:26:20.350 - 00:26:22.430 Nathaniel Brandon. Honoring the self. Yerasimos 00:26:22.590 - 00:26:23.230 Oh, yeah. Mark 00:26:23.230 - 00:26:34.190 Let me read you the first line of the book, which resonates even more now. Of all the judgments that we pass in life, none is as important as the one we pass on ourselves. Judgment touches the very center of our existence. Joel 00:26:34.700 - 00:26:36.860 Bam. Yeah. Yerasimos 00:26:37.740 - 00:26:39.260 Nathaniel's great, bro. Joel 00:26:39.340 - 00:27:01.450 I mean, this is it. This is all it is. Self concept is destiny. I'm pretty sure it's written on the front cover of that book, Summer, as well. Like how you feel about you, how you perceive yourself. That's what reality creation is. Ultimately, everything happening externally to you is an objectification of the inner mechanism. That is the relationship I have with this deeper sense of self. Mark 00:27:03.120 - 00:27:05.760 And how do you define you and the layers of you? Joel 00:27:06.080 - 00:27:10.840 It's a paradigm. Yeah, it's deep. Mark 00:27:10.840 - 00:27:33.610 It's deep. I mean, I think there's. There's the. The you that's the physical entity, but then there's the you that's the consciousness that's even beyond that. And in this physical reality, it seems as though we have amnesia, that there are blockages to the fullest expressions of ourselves. And the human task seems to be to embody that to our greatest stability. Joel 00:27:33.850 - 00:27:51.250 Yeah. And it's in the. The amnesia or the limitations, they're all purposeful as well. They're not like these. These. It's not like a prison, you know, it's like. It's a. We purposefully entered into an experience to have this condensed version of whatever it is for a reason, you know? Mark 00:27:51.250 - 00:27:55.220 Right, right. I see that now, experientially. Joel 00:27:55.380 - 00:27:55.940 Yeah. Mark 00:27:56.100 - 00:28:19.140 That these altered states, the medicines, are our avenues. They're not the only ones, I think they're. They can be extremely helpful in certain circumstances to help you see the broader reality so that you can integrate it. But there is a reason that we are blocked while we're in the body. And these are like, little hints that we're given. Little helpers, teachers. But the real task is the stuff that we're doing in the body. And that's what you guys are doing such a great job of focusing on. Joel 00:28:20.530 - 00:28:23.250 Thank you. Okay, what happens next? Mark 00:28:23.250 - 00:28:43.010 Some more? Yeah. See what comes next. Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how much to censor here, just to not talk about other people's stuff, because that was big. I mean, I did have some, like, an instance of an empathic event of someone else who experienced major life trauma and becoming that person and feeling all the sadness and sorrow. Joel 00:28:43.170 - 00:28:44.050 Someone close to you. Mark 00:28:44.610 - 00:30:29.570 Yeah, Yeah. I feel uncomfortable talking about, but my flood dose was filled with sorrow. I was bawling for most of it. That's not something I typically do. And it was. It was beyond grief. And so I. Part of it was grieving my old self. And what was really interesting is that a lot of what was coming up was everything prior to my spiritual awakening, which was about 10 years ago. So it was like there was. I. I feel like I've made a lot of progress in the last 10 years, and it was kind of showing me that. But there was unprocessed stuff from those years that it was helping me deal with, and a lot of just early years and understanding family dynamics. And the best way I'll put this to summarize the overall sense. Ibogaine takes you to the root. It's known as the root plan of Earth. And it took me to the root. And for me, it feels like it is intergenerational annihilation, terror in the Jewish lineage. And I had done family constellation work before. I'm familiar with that sort of thing. But I was feeling that on a level where, oh, this is not mine, and it's serious stuff. And if you have people who for generations and generations have had an internal sense of terror that they're going to be wiped out, that will feed into everything. Yeah, Everything in life becomes about life and death, and it affects the nervous system. So I. What I was shown is that I. For whatever reason, I guess part of what I'm here to do is actually to. To heal some of that within myself, even though it's not mine and even though it's not something I would identify with. I mean, like, I have a Jewish heritage. But as you guys know, I'm not like a religious Jewish person. I don't know how reality works, but somehow that is energetically passed down. Yerasimos 00:30:29.570 - 00:30:30.010 I don't. Mark 00:30:30.010 - 00:31:02.510 There's a field of epigenetics and I know that people in our community question the paradigm of genetics whether that's the actual mechanism of heredity. We know things are passed down, we don't know how. My sense is that there's something spiritual, energetic, that is in all of our lineages. And I'm experiencing one lineage. But what I think I experienced relates to all lineages where there's been a history of trauma. And I'm way more attuned to that of understanding that people are living out things that are not theirs. That's, that's what we're seeing in our society. So healing the intergenerational, ancestral, familial stuff is really critical. Yerasimos 00:31:02.910 - 00:32:35.860 Well, I mean, listen, because it's interesting. Like there has, there have been studies, but there have been personal experiences of people who like, you know, the, the psychological state, the psycho emotional state of the mother while a baby's in utero impacts the baby, you know, so we're like, we're just taking it, we're taking it back even more like that this impact is happening. Oh no, let's go down two generations, let's go three generations, let's go four generations. So there's something that is impacting it, you know. And I'll never forget when I was back when I was going to the Institute of Integrative Nutrition, back when they had in person classes, this is almost 20 years ago, we were having a conversation about this subject and one of the girls, a woman, got up to say, like, you know, my whole life I felt like I didn't belong. Like I had this like, self, like I shouldn't be here. Dealt with suicidal tendencies, this, that and the other. And then I had a conversation with my aunt one day and she told me and her mother had passed, but she told me that her sister like the, the ancestor, so her mom wanted to abort her while she was, while she was pregnant, while she was in utero. And so like, on some level, I don't know what the mechanism is, it impacts the child who goes through this life being like, I don't belong, I'm worthless, I'm useless, I should just end my life, I'd be better off. And it's like, well, how are you? How does that impact the child? Like, what is going on? And then you go back two, three, four, Five, six generations. It's really fascinating to consider whether or not we know what the mechanism. Mechanism is or not. Mark 00:32:37.460 - 00:33:26.230 I think acknowledging that's critical and I was even getting hints of that because of the, the somatic experiences I had, especially when the ataxia wore off, because you can't really move very well. But a lot of physical movements in my body, like jaw releases and strange movements or even movements with my, let's say shoulders, which may, may be suggestive of early life or who knows, even womb stuff that's mine or I don't know what. But very strange movements that my body, I guess, needed to release. And the medicine is just remarkable and that it's able to help you do that. And so that, yeah, that was the first, that was the major theme of the first flood dose. Really painful. A lot of insights. I feel like I released a lot of stuff and then the day after it, some people call it gray day because you just feel really off or grace day. I actually felt better during that off day. Joel 00:33:27.270 - 00:33:33.590 And so were you experiencing discomfort during the entire flood dose journey? Mark 00:33:34.470 - 00:33:38.390 Yes. The whole thing was unpleasant. Joel 00:33:39.110 - 00:33:50.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like it. Did you like eventually find a way to like settle into that, like bear it or was it just like always, like this angst of. Mark 00:33:51.080 - 00:34:03.000 Yeah, it was, it was an angst. It was letting out. It was forcing me to stay with things that were so uncomfortable that I probably have just tried not to stay with despite other modalities that I've tried and I wanted to leave. Yerasimos 00:34:03.560 - 00:34:04.000 But was. Joel 00:34:04.000 - 00:34:10.360 Was there a part of you that was like this, this is good for me. Stay with the mark, stay with it. This is what you came for. Like, was that. Was that part there? Mark 00:34:10.680 - 00:34:14.230 Yeah, there was a part of me that. The competitive tennis player part came out. Yerasimos 00:34:14.230 - 00:34:14.510 Yeah. Mark 00:34:14.510 - 00:34:25.310 And I had this analogy in my head. I was like, this is if you're in a five set tennis match in a Grand Slam, you're deep in the fourth set in a tie break and you're just grinding. That's what this is. Joel 00:34:25.390 - 00:34:25.870 Yeah. Mark 00:34:25.870 - 00:34:52.900 And I don't know if I'm ever going to do this again, but I'm here for the truth and I want to get better. And you know, it's amazing. At beyond. I asked for some of the coaches to come in. So I had coaches coming with me in this hospital setting who were walking me through what was going on and, and they were able to reassure me of like, this is amazing. Like mark this. Let's thank Ibogaine for what it's releasing in you and to have that recontextualization. It was very helpful. Joel 00:34:52.980 - 00:34:54.420 Amazing. That's cool. Yerasimos 00:34:55.220 - 00:34:56.580 Yeah, man. Yeah. Mark 00:34:56.580 - 00:36:18.990 And it manifest, some people say, like iboga, which is the root plant, where ibogaine is one of the key alkaloids, is it grandfather, spirit? Whereas some people say ibogaine is like just your higher self communing with yourself. I did feel like I was communing with myself because there was some intelligence, some higher version of me that knew all these parts and seemingly random things that it was able to pull up to wink at me about how well it knew me. I did get a sense that there was an energy that is a teacher there, too, that it was the ibogaine, or whatever the root is, was actually there as a teacher. And it's a teacher that deeply cares about us, that it loves us, but it expresses love through the truth, even if the truth is painful. And that was one of the key lessons. And I resonate with that strongly because it kind of hit me, what am I doing when I write books that I know people are going to dislike me for? I'm trying to get to truths that have really affected me. And it's my way of expressing love in an indirect way or maybe a direct way of this helped me a lot. I want to help other people. I'm going to express some really uncomfortable things. And that's what the medicine was reflecting back. So I was like, okay, I'm here for this, and I'm. I'm going to go through it as painful as it is. And I think that's an important distinction. We toss around this term love a lot. And there might be a false association between love and happiness exclusively. That's. Joel 00:36:18.990 - 00:36:24.470 Love is truth. Love is truth whether it's painful or not, whether it's feels good or not. Yerasimos 00:36:25.670 - 00:36:31.190 I just keep thinking about you as the Novak Djokovic of the Ibo Gang Clinic, bro. Just like the goat, bro. The goat. Mark 00:36:32.690 - 00:36:35.890 I wish I were Novak in that way. He's a baller. Yerasimos 00:36:35.970 - 00:36:36.410 Yeah. Mark 00:36:36.410 - 00:37:37.320 But, yeah, it was. It was a battle for sure. And the way I look at ibogaine now, I've never experienced reverence for something before. I have reverence for this, meaning respect on the deepest level. It is a divine intelligence. It is clearly, to me, an emissary of the divine. I don't know, an expression of God, if you want to call it that, because of what it showed me, it could do. Part of my integration for the rest of my life is not going to be the personal work, but it's going to be how could ingesting a plant substance do that? What it did with me. So reverence to me is distinguished from worship. And it was another thing as I was like, communing with the spirit. Worship is. There's an external idol versus reverence as something I respect. And it's teaching me something that I can embody as a sovereign being myself. And as one of the staff members at the clinic said to me is, it's not about just taking the medicine over and over again. It's you become the medicine, you learn the truth that it taught you, and then you embody it yourself. Yerasimos 00:37:39.640 - 00:38:02.220 I think that's where the benefit lies with medicines like this, when you get addicted to the experience and have to keep going back to it over and over and over again, I think that's highlighting something deeper underneath. As opposed to, I had this experience now, how can I embody the message? How can I live it? And how do I not need to rely on this thing outside of me that I'm putting inside my system? Mark 00:38:03.500 - 00:38:25.340 Yeah, it's something that I'm. I'm thinking about myself because there's this part of me that just loves these states of consciousness. I feel way more comfortable in the spiritual dimension than I do in the physical. But I got a clear hit from it. That's like, no, we're. I'm showing you what to do and embody in your life, but it's not about coming back for the medicine over and over again. Like, you got what you needed, and I'm taking that seriously. We'll see where life goes. Yerasimos 00:38:25.340 - 00:38:25.580 But. Mark 00:38:25.730 - 00:38:30.690 But I think I. I was shown enough that I was given direction of how I can work on myself for those intentions. Yerasimos 00:38:31.010 - 00:41:35.060 Yeah, that's how I felt with my ayahuasca experiences. You know, when I went down to Peru in 2000, beginning in 2009, I think it was, you know, like, I had the experiences, and then for years afterwards, especially as. As ayahuasca got more popular, people were like, well, are you going to do it again? Do it again? And I just was like, I got a few hits that were extremely powerful. And one of them was like, similar to, like, my third ceremony. I just got taken over, whatever that was. And it was like, this was not good. Like, I went to the deepest, darkest places. Parts within me, like, feeling of complete uselessness, fear. Just like, just these areas that as someone who was all happy and positive and all the time at that time in my life, to a certain degree, I think it brought me to this place, it grounded me to this place. Like, like to experience that level. And for me, I had just enough, enough of that little crack that Joel said was like, this is good for you. And just focus on the next breath so you don't run out of here saying, I'm out of here. It was like, just breathe, okay, I'm alive. Just breathe. I'm alive. I'm. Just breathe until whatever that five hour period. And then like the shaman lights the candle in the middle, and then there were two other people there at the time. I hear them talking, but like, I was just like, what the. I mean, when I got up and sitting there, like I was just over and over, just repeating probably for 45 minutes, what the. You know, like, like what the was this experience that I just had where I experienced parts of me that were hidden, that were very difficult to connect to, to access, but also just kind of a slap in the face of like, this is a part of reality. This, you're here, you're in this body. It isn't all just roses and butterflies, you know, and can you hold it? And the, the thought that kept coming to me too, during that was, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. You know? And I was like, I'm staying in the kitchen, you know, like, I'm gonna go through this experience and see what it has for me on the other side. But the funniest part, I want to just add this, the funniest part of that was I was. We did these ceremonies in this jungle palapa. And I happened when I went to the center, I chose a treehouse to, to stay in like 10, like 7, 8 minute walk out of the jungle. So when it's time to end, one of the guys that worked on the, worked at the center was walking me back. And meanwhile, these guys that are working the center, these locals, these natives, you know, he has like a rifle on his back. So I'm, I'm walking, he's walking me back the whole time. Meanwhile, I'm like, like taking a break to like vomit in the bushes or something in the jungle. And the whole time something comes over me that I'm like, this dude's taking me into the jungle to execute me. Like, so for five minutes, that felt like an hour, I'm following this guy. I can't see his face. I'm behind him, like, stumbling through the little jungle path, and I'm like, this is it. I'm gonna be executed. And then he turns around, get to the treehouse, he turns around and smiles and says, buenos Noches. And then I'm like, okay, I'm safe. Anyways, just sharing that story because it's just interesting. Like it is, it is interesting. Joel 00:41:35.060 - 00:41:58.320 It's like one thing that came to me is like especially in the context of parts while going in working with medicine like this, like how safe you feel in the environment matters a lot. Right. And like I'd much rather the context of the medical, medical center that Mark find himself in as opposed to I'm in the jungle of Peru and I've got less control, there's less, there's more unknown factors, etc. Yerasimos 00:41:58.320 - 00:42:00.040 Yeah, no, yeah, totally, totally. Mark 00:42:00.040 - 00:42:08.750 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's huge. The feeling of safety is essential and, and like I said before, if this is done improperly, it could go wrong. Very wrong. Yerasimos 00:42:10.190 - 00:42:10.670 Yeah. Joel 00:42:13.630 - 00:42:14.350 What else? Mark 00:42:15.470 - 00:43:11.330 There was a part of me going into this and even now the self critical part that's like, why do you need a medicine, Mark? Why do you need an external substance? And then the rational part kicks in which is that we are not perfect and we can seek out help wherever we can get it. And that's actually a state of truth and humility to say there were things that I was not overcoming after trying a lot and I wanted to try something new in a very conscious and careful way and it rewarded me for that. And I actually felt a very strong connection with the medicine when I went into it because I had done a lot of work leading up to this. Arguably it was a 10 year process before I was even ready to do this. If I had done this 10 years ago, pre spiritual awakening, this could have been incredibly disruptive. And it is a little disruptive because you have to rethink your whole life in some ways. But because I've been on this path for a while, I feel like I can deal with it a bit better. Yerasimos 00:43:12.290 - 00:43:41.970 Yeah, well you have more context like you know yourself on a deeper level as opposed to like you know, investment banker Mark. Like oh, I'm going to an clinic right now. I don't know what it is, but I'm going to go on this experience like it's different, you know, like you. Yeah, I feel like you almost want to have some sort of like deeper sense of understanding and self knowledge. Like without that it can be, it could probably blow up your system and then when you try to reintegrate back in the world, it might have, it might do more harm than good. Joel 00:43:42.050 - 00:43:52.810 I mean, let me ask you this question, okay. Like is the plans, the medicine or does the plants open up pathways within to show you that you are the medicine. Mark 00:43:54.160 - 00:44:53.390 Yeah, I think it's some combination, but it is very much an internal journey where it's like it's showing you the real you. And however it does that is so remarkable to me. But it's an internal process. And if we want to get really metaphysical, to me, there's only the ultimate, highest self. There's just a unitary field of consciousness. So it is ultimately you on some level, but it feels like a helper that's unlocking those areas of within you that could be difficult to do otherwise. And to my earlier point, this state of almost reciprocity, acknowledging the work that I had done, that I put things on a platter and then it was able to connect dots and weave in things that I didn't have access to. And it basically said, because you did this work, we're going to show this to you. There are other people at the center who had very positive experiences in terms of the end result, but they got no insights. And I don't know why that is, but I felt this very strong sense that if you take this seriously and express reverence for it and are really working on yourself, then you're going to get something out of it that's commensurate with your effort. Joel 00:44:53.870 - 00:45:08.510 Yeah. And I mean, I think the levels of self reflectiveness of each individuals vary as well, you know, in terms of what insights you're going to grab. Like, if you're consciously like, and naturally like introspective in that manner, you're going to grab stuff. I think. Mark 00:45:09.950 - 00:45:26.440 I think so. And what people at the clinic say is repeatedly is that the medicine gives you not what you want, but what you need. And to your point, Joel, maybe it's yourself, yourself giving you what it knows it needs versus what you think you want. Joel 00:45:28.680 - 00:45:29.240 What's. Yerasimos 00:45:29.880 - 00:45:50.050 You touched on it a little bit in the beginning, but, like, what's the difference at a place that's like a medical setting like this versus like, like, yo, I just took a trip to Africa and met up with some tribesmen there and I, you know, chewed on the or however they prepare it, you know, there, like, did they talk about, like, what experience like that would be versus something that's much more measured or, you know, clinical. Joel 00:45:50.290 - 00:45:52.050 The, the down lots are a bit different. Mark 00:45:53.410 - 00:46:53.250 Yeah, I don't know. I haven't done it, so I really can't speak to that. But I think there's. There's something about being in a safe setting where, you know, people have gone through this and they've gone through it. Safely and they're medically screening everyone and they're willing to turn people away if they don't like what they see. Medically that helps a lot. You could go in the wilderness or with whatever shaman is administering the iboga and go through that. Apparently it's an even more multi day journey. But going back to my journey, it was, I think it was like nine hours in the room and I was just so restless. I wanted to get out of there and move around because my body just like wanted to get the energy out. And then I didn't sleep for like over 24 hours. Some people, they fall asleep and they sleep for a lot. I was hyperactive and the night before the flood dose, it's almost like the journey started because I was having the same kind of restlessness where I basically pulled an all nighter going into the Ivy gang and then I was hyperactive on it and then I couldn't sleep. And then basically for multiple days I wasn't sleeping until I got home. And then there was the, the supplemental dose, which we can talk about, but I'll pause there. Joel 00:46:54.610 - 00:47:03.650 Yeah. Is there any like, like fasting process before this or like, like anything that you're not supposed to consume, like coffee or anything of that sort? Mark 00:47:04.850 - 00:47:19.850 Yes. And I don't remember all the restrictions exactly, but you, there are certain substances you can take that could affect the heart. And the heart is the biggest issue with ibogaine. It slows down the heart rate and you can feel it. And that was actually anxiety provoking because you feel your heart like kind of pounding. Joel 00:47:20.010 - 00:47:20.410 Yeah. Mark 00:47:20.410 - 00:47:48.400 I'm thinking, am I going to be okay? Are the doctors going to come in and say you've got some big heart issue and we've got to stop. So that was a little bit scary. But so anything, any the foods that they recommend or not are, are based on health concerns. And there was no food consumption the day of, I think no fluids except water the morning of. And you've got an IV the whole time. The way it worked with me and the way I've. It's worked with other substances is that I have no appetite at all and I like have so much energy. Joel 00:47:48.800 - 00:47:58.480 Uhhuh. All right, so flood dose. Very brutal. Lots of sorrow. Understanding self love in a newer context. Mark 00:47:59.440 - 00:48:31.970 Understanding myself in a newer context, Filling in the gaps of who is this character? Mark, One of the first insights that came in, actually we're all, we're all characters here, meaning that our, our true identity is this higher spiritual self, but we're embodying These very specific characters, which, again, these are things I've written about. But to experience it and, like, feel into that, that was another just helpful insight that I can anchor into. Yeah. A lot of sorrow was released, a lot of understanding of Lineage stuff on a new level, and an understanding for me that this is part of my journey, actually. Joel 00:48:32.290 - 00:48:32.850 Yeah. Mark 00:48:33.090 - 00:48:34.530 That I'm. Joel 00:48:34.530 - 00:48:34.970 I, I. Mark 00:48:34.970 - 00:48:36.450 This is something I need to heal. Joel 00:48:37.710 - 00:48:41.790 Yeah. Okay. What follows? Mark 00:48:42.190 - 00:52:44.080 Yeah. So supplemental dose, smaller amount. You're still in a somewhat medical setting, and it's just like, it's a. You're not laying down as. As you are for the flood dose. So, like, you're sitting up in this very comfortable chair, but there's still an iv and they're monitoring your heart, but you're seated for about two hours, and then you can move around after that. There was no sadness in this one. But again, the uncomfortable feelings emerged very quickly. And the feelings I would describe are combination of terror and with the terror I'm realizing now is shame. They. They go together and beyond anger. I would call it a seething fury. So the experience was, again, highly somatic. I was pacing around their back lawn doing all kinds of heavy breathing, like, from the gut. What hap. What's happened for me in my medicine journeys is that my. They're known as kriyas in the Hindu tradition, where you will. The body will do things that it doesn't consciously know how to do. So there are hand movements called mudras, where you hold your fingers in different positions, and I will, like, spontaneously do that and then move in a choreographed manner with my hands as if I knew how to do that. My body will spontaneously do that. So I was. Because it's a lower dose, there's. You don't have the same ataxia. So I was able to move around with all these feelings, and I wasn't quite as out of it as I was for the flood dose. And I was able to move around and feel through these emotions. And at the center, they have coaches, and they saw that I was going through a tough one, so they were cycling in and helping me breathe through it. And they're like, this is amazing. You're releasing all this stuff. I didn't have visuals in the same way that I did with the flood dose visuals, meaning I'm sitting there with a blindfold on, and I was actually seeing, I think, entities, almost like I was on a highway, and they just kept coming in. And I was like, I don't want any of you, because if I made eye contact with them, they would look back at me and I was like, I don't trust any of this. I don't want you. I want to focus on myself. And sometimes there would be these almost cartoons of things in my life that were so specific to parts of my life, almost like it was winking at me that it knew. And the cartoon about me would come in which was kind of wild, but none of that stuff with a supplemental dose. It was just these emotions that were so uncomfortable, so uncomfortable. And I do think at the root it's ancestral, but it was relating to things in my life. So as it pertains to the, let's call it the seething fury, there's a big part of me that ha. That does not like injustice. And that's why I write the books and talk about stuff. And in my professional career I worked with intellectual property. I worked with sometimes large companies, but often small companies who invented stuff that changed the world. And I saw big companies steal from them and I saw the court system not uphold their patents and the media crush these people. And injustice to myself where I wasn't standing up for myself because the self love wasn't there, where I would say yes to things because I didn't know how to even tap into my own desires. And when you accumulate that over a lifetime of not standing up for yourself and seeing injustice in the world and all the stuff you guys cover on your podcast where it's frustrating that had to get processed and it was super uncomfortable and it culminated in other somatic things like, like hand movements that are almost like punching or claws or growling, roaring jaw movements, heavy breathing. It's just like it had to come out. And that was coming out for a while, but it was co occurring with this existential terror. I mean, annihilation is worse than death. Annihilation is wiped. You're wiped out. So there's a, the, the. It's beyond fear, it's terror. And then any shortcomings in life that, that relate in some way to that terror, which ends up being everything. That's where shame can come in of why I'm falling short here. And if I'm falling short, then I'm contributing to the annihilation. So that's a big one. Dude, I. Yerasimos 00:52:45.850 - 00:52:49.250 I'm so happy for you. You know what I mean? Like, I'm really happy for you that. Mark 00:52:49.250 - 00:52:50.010 You had this experience. Yerasimos 00:52:50.250 - 00:53:25.880 You know, especially someone like myself who comes from a somatic background and you know, hearing you talk about the things and the growling and the gestures and like, you know, like Anger, healthy aggression is, like, required for, like, a healthy life, you know, and for, like, a grounded center and being. And, like, in order to be able to express that not just, like, intellectually, but, like, through the body, is extremely important, you know? So, like, I'm just. Yeah, I'm enjoying hearing your experience, even though it was extremely uncomfortable. But also I'm also like, yeah, good. You know, like, yeah, it's the medicine I need, you know? Mark 00:53:26.840 - 00:54:58.650 Yeah. And it also relates to masculinity, something you guys have covered on the show, like, masculine, feminine balance. What's that? What are the parts that need to be expressed within ourselves? Leanne Lepento is doing a great job of this, of, like, kind of countering the polarity movement of talking about that. We need to integrate both within ourselves, even as a male, to understand both parts, but then also to understand the parts of the masculine that have righteous anger and that has to be processed. Like the warrior type energy, which for me came out in tennis and maybe when I'm writing books, there are aspects of it, but that those parts needed to come out more. And that's what the medicine, or myself, as you might say, Joel, it was. It was somehow helping to release that and to be able to, like, breathe through it with the coaches and sit there and ground. I was literally on the grass, like, pounding the ground and all kinds of crazy stuff and just hyperactive. Like, I didn't want any food, no sleep, and it was just like. The other thing that happens with ibogaine, at least for some people, is that your mind is. Is comp. It's like defragging your brain. So you're getting all these insights and trying to process them in real time, and they're incomplete. So it's like insights are just popping in. And because it was a lower dose, it was almost hard. It was harder the supplemental dose, because the insights were in and I was more with it that I could try to process them as they were happening and then feel all the emotions associated with them and then try to process these younger parts that are feeling the terror and the shame and understanding why I am the person I am today and all the surrounding elements. And it was just a ton to process. Yerasimos 00:55:00.810 - 00:55:02.690 Yeah, heavy, man. Mark 00:55:02.690 - 00:55:04.570 Heavy fame. Joel 00:55:04.570 - 00:55:16.740 Shame is such a. You know, it's such a deep, complex, man. Because it's not like guilt, but, like, you made a mistake. It's like, no, you are a mistake. You know, it cuts right to the sense of self. Mark 00:55:18.900 - 00:55:20.260 Fundamentally deficient. Joel 00:55:20.580 - 00:55:21.020 Yes. Mark 00:55:21.020 - 00:55:42.270 That's what shame gets to. Fundamental deficiency is the Opposite of self love. So sitting there in these emotions with also the understanding of self love that I directly encountered and that paradox of, okay, these emotions are coming up, they're super unpleasant. They're contradicting the element of self love. Can I still love myself while feeling all this? Joel 00:55:42.910 - 00:56:07.980 Yeah, and often with shame. It's like a fear of being seen for how I really am. Your fear of being. Being exposed in this sense, you know, and also that's a core. For example, one of the core, you know, elements of, of here for the truth is like, when we're authentic and we move through that and we're able to speak into that and be. And be open about it, like, there's great healing that occurs in that, you. Mark 00:56:07.980 - 00:56:14.660 Know, One of my core intentions, medicine. Show me how to be fully authentic and show me any blocks in the way. Joel 00:56:14.740 - 00:56:15.220 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:56:17.860 - 00:56:18.900 How do you feel now? Mark 00:56:20.340 - 00:57:32.930 It's up and down. I mean, somatically, I can breathe down through my central channel all the way to the base. I didn't know that existed before this. So there's a background release that occurred that's super powerful, but it's coming back into the world and triggers that have been there for 40 years for me, plus who knows how the ancestral stuff fits into that. They come back up. So it's a real, like, nervous system practice of titrating that out and being comfortable with saying, no, I'm actually safe. Yeah, that whatever feelings of unsafety that I don't even know the origin necessarily is to say that I am safe. And that's the practice to, to get to the place that I was shown with the medicine. It basically showed me this is where you can get to. When I'm sitting in that divine realm looking at myself and it's so easy to love myself and to feel totally safe to. To now work up to that while in a body. And it's tough. And I've heard this from people. Integration's not easy, but overall, I mean, incredible. Like I said at the beginning, if you really care about personal development, I. I don't know of a better tool that can point you in the, in the direction of truth. And as we said, the truth is sometimes painful. And working through that is love. Joel 00:57:37.010 - 00:58:39.050 Yeah, it's so interesting. It's so interesting how like, we compartmentalize self development. Like all of life is self development. Right? Like, it's not something that you do. Like, it's something that you're literally like here for. Like, if you think about, like the macro purpose of existence, it's to develop self is to learn, is to grow, is to expand, it's to evolve. And it's like I think the most potent relationship that one can have is, is reality as teacher. Like in every single moment of every single second you are learning, you are given feedback, you were given a mirror. And like you are, you are this vessel of self development. It's not something you can stop doing, it's not something you can shoot, you can even really choose, even when you feel like you're going backwards. Like that's ultimately a slingshot that's going to teach you a harder lesson somewhere along the road. Mark 00:58:42.170 - 00:58:59.210 And that's why for me, ibogaine is so powerful, because it's taking you to that self development journey. It's not taking you, at least in my case and I've heard from many other people, you're not just being blasted into other realms, it's taking you into you and your own personal development. And I want to say a few other things before I forget because you asked about self love Joel earlier. Joel 00:58:59.370 - 00:58:59.850 Yeah. Mark 00:59:01.940 - 01:01:06.630 Self betrayal is kind of the counter to self love and self betrayal is a very common trait in the world. I, I saw it in myself a lot of where I learned that love comes from being validated by other people and doing what they want, which is then can result in betraying what you actually want and not even knowing what you want because you think your worth is dependent on other people's validation. And that manifested in so many areas of my life, even in my career, working in investment banking and strategy consulting and helping companies with mergers and acquisitions and all that stuff. Your worth is dependent on their opinion of you. So I kept finding these areas where I was reinforcing a lack of self love. And that was part of the grieving process too, of I need to say no to things. And it was something I was working on before the journey too. But it was so clear to me and I'm feeling a post journey of things have come up where I might have said yes in the past and it's a clear no. I'm just like no, no. And I don't even feel bad about it anymore. I see it with eating where I might have wanted to. Let's. I probably had a mild food addiction of I would eat foods that were self soothing and now it's like I don't even want that. Like that's, that's totally unloving to put that in my body. That's betraying myself. So there is a reprogramming that this does. And Neurologically, I don't know exactly how it works. There's a guy at Stanford, Norm Williams, who was studying this before he passed away last year. But apparently ibogaine works on all or nearly all of the receptors in the brain, whereas other medicines work on selective parts of the brain. So there is this full reboot that occurs even on a level that's beyond your consciousness. So I'm feeling that in certain behaviors where the self love kicks in of like, no, no, no, I need to protect this guy. And that was also in the flood dose of looking at Mark through the movie lens from the divine eye. We have to protect him. So I have to be here to protect myself, protect this character that has gone through all these things in life. And that's the self love is to be there as the protector, bro. Joel 01:01:06.630 - 01:01:17.510 With all these themes of self betrayal, self love, self acceptance, you didn't have to go to Cancun and have this brutal experience, man. You could have just sat on your computer, signed up for Rise above the Herd, been in the cozy conditions of your home. Mark 01:01:17.890 - 01:01:20.250 I knew you'd love this, you know, but it's interesting. Yerasimos 01:01:20.250 - 01:01:46.850 Like, but I, I get what I mean. Obviously I agree with Joel in one second, and we're obviously joking, but like, the, the subjects that you're talking about, like, it is the ethos of being here for the truth. It is the ethos of rise above the herd. You know, like, how do we move from this place of self betrayal and all the different ways we've betrayed ourselves because of all the different programming from, from family, from culture, from society, from things that have been passed down through our lineage that we don't even understand where it comes from. Joel 01:01:47.220 - 01:01:47.460 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:01:47.460 - 01:02:39.670 To this more grounded place of being the author of your life and having authority over your life and making decisions truly for yourself. And part of that is like really understanding and knowing yourself. I just had conversation with a friend of mine who was an md, a doctor. And like, I. We were just chatting and I was kind of blown away when she was just like, yeah, we were in conversation about some other stuff. She's like, yeah, I pretty much just realized everything that I learned in medical school was wrong. And like, to hear someone say that, you know, that had gone through the process and to. And to be like, yeah, like, I feel like I was just trying to satisfy my parents, I was just trying to satisfy my family and like, you know, put on the white coat and, and, and it's like, now I'm much clearer on who I am and, and what I Want and what I value and I don't, I no longer want to betray myself. Joel 01:02:39.910 - 01:03:20.860 Yeah, you're. You're both touching on something incredibly important. Because self betrayal happens so unconsciously, especially when we don't know ourselves and when we don't even know what we authentically want in life, then we're constantly betraying ourselves to these deeper values because we don't even know what they are. Every time that we just accept and go along with conditioned values and conditioned desires, that is self betrayal. And so most people's lives really is just the emanation of, of self betrayal. You know, it's like I'm. I'm lost, so someone else just fucking drag me along and tell me what to do. You, you have my energy. You take my energy, you utilize it, you harvest it. Because I don't know where it is and, or what to do with it. Yerasimos 01:03:22.300 - 01:03:44.150 And the wild thing is, it's like you can achieve such levels of quote, unquote success in our, like, the way the world is, like, designed through self betrayal. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like, it's, it's wild. It's like, oh, if I betray myself, I could have millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars and be respected by millions and millions and millions and millions of people. Joel 01:03:44.230 - 01:03:47.110 But is. Isn't that the primordial deal with the devil? Mark 01:03:50.230 - 01:03:51.670 I would say it looks like success. Yerasimos 01:03:52.310 - 01:04:18.710 That's why I said quotes. That's why, that's why I said, like, the quotes, like what it looks like. And, but, but what's happening within, you know, if you can no longer shut down that voice, if it's coming up, I mean, people try drugs, alcohol, every distraction known to humanity to freaking not listen to the voice of conscious, that voice of that deeper thing within. That's like, you are betraying yourself. Stop it. Mark 01:04:19.750 - 01:04:45.040 But it's actually adaptive if you think about it. Because if you've learned to survive based on getting validation from other people, I agree to continue doing it, but you have to break the cycle. And I was aware a lot, a lot of the stuff and had been working on it, but there were certain things I just could not seem to access until the medicine unlocked it. And now it helps me go even further on this path of not betraying myself. Because I can see it from a different lens, dude. Yerasimos 01:04:45.040 - 01:05:43.510 When I. My third ceremony, no, my second ceremony, I was talking about before, like, I took. This was a year off. I took the backpack around the world. And I'm like, it, I'm gonna do whatever I Want I'm gonna travel around the world. Oh, yeah. I have old Greek parents, whatever. They're. They're in J Jersey, doing their thing, you know, like, it's my life. I'm gonna do what I want. Also realizing I am a son and I have people who care about me. But, like, at that point, I wasn't thinking that I was, like, mid, late 20s. But my second ceremony brought me to this place where I don't know what happened. I can't explain it, but I was in the state where it felt like two gold cords just shot across the universe. I was in Peru and landed in the little TV room in Wayne, New Jersey that my parents sit and watch TV at and just tapped into their consciousness. And then I became them and felt what it was like to have love for a child. And I started weeping for, like 20 minutes, you know, so it's like. Joel 01:05:43.510 - 01:05:44.950 Like feeling their worry for you. Yerasimos 01:05:44.950 - 01:07:09.460 Just feeling their worry. Where's my son? Like, they're little old Greek people. And I'm like, I'm going to Peru. I'm going to Colombia. I'm going all over here. They have no context for that. They have no understanding. And then, like, that shifted my relationship. That shifted my view. Like, sure, I'm going to keep doing what I want to do in my life, but, like, there are people out there that I need to take into account. I have parents who, like, have done so much for me. And so just to acknowledge that, like, that was life changing for me. That. And then the experience I shared earlier, you know, almost in a sense, that suffering is temporary. Like, that's another lesson I got from that. Like, it's not permanent. If I can hold it, I can move through it. So, yes, it's. It's. It's like, yeah, it's pretty incredible, the experiences that you can have. And it's like, if you can, wherever you can take the lesson, wherever you can get the lesson, take it, own it, and integrate it. Whether it's plant medicine, whether it's an online course, whether it's, you know, being on top of a mountaintop and meditating, which I like to talk about sometimes, because people think, like, that is what spirituality is, you know, like, take it. And so it's. It's only, you know, only, you know what the experience is. You went and had this experience. You're now out of that experience. How are you relating to yourself? How are you relating to others? How are you relating to what this whole thing is, this mystery. You know, I could sit here and say, well, psychedelics are unhealthy and bad and you shouldn't do these things. It's like. But you had an experience. Joel 01:07:09.860 - 01:07:10.260 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:07:10.260 - 01:07:12.740 And so, you know, what, what are you gaining from it? Joel 01:07:13.230 - 01:07:39.880 Yeah. And like, intuitively, we're always being led through the lessons that we need. And so, Mark, for you, you could say that it took you 10 years for your intuition to be like, okay, now we're, now we're gonna, now we're going here. And like, in that sense, you know when I said that you are the medicine, like your intuition is the medicine, it's guiding you towards the necessary experiences for the next stage of, of your personal evolution. Mark 01:07:40.520 - 01:08:03.480 Yeah. And you're awesome as to your point about meditation. I went hardcore into meditation in 2020 when I left my firm. I was meditating. I did two silent retreats, one with Adyashanti, another with his wife Mukti, within a three week period, early 2020. And then the world shut down. So I had a lot of free time. I just left my firm. I was meditating on average around five hours a day. Joel 01:08:03.720 - 01:08:04.200 Wow. Mark 01:08:04.570 - 01:08:27.450 Like in two hour segments or one hour segments. I did 10 days in a row of 10 hours, like mega meditation. And what I learned and gained from one flood dose far exceeded what I got from that. But I might have needed that year of meditation to get myself to the place where I actually felt comfortable in the psychedelic realm, where I could handle myself. Yerasimos 01:08:27.930 - 01:09:30.180 Yeah, it's interesting you say that because it's like, it's hard to know, like, because your life is all these different decisions and choices that you've made. It's like, well, what, what was the thing that had the impact? This is the culmination. You took a substance and you had this experience. But so much came before that. Because I've had conversations with people where often I say, you know, like, listen, you know, ayahuasca had those two powerful experiences. But for me, like, becoming fully like 100 sober and doing deep somatic work, body work and all that had the greatest impact on my, like, evolution and my state of consciousness, which I agree to some degree. But then again, it's like all the stuff that came before, you know, the psycho spiritual stuff, understanding, you know, psychology parts work, you know, doing ayahuasca, traveling, reading, self reflecting, you know, like, that all led to a moment. And like Paul saying, you're following that inner compass, that hopefully you're following it correctly and you're making decisions that are aligned with something deeper within this intu intuition that guides you to appealing the next like layer of the onion of your life. Joel 01:09:30.740 - 01:10:37.760 Yeah. And like to speak for like my current lived personal experience. Like, I love these conversations. I love hearing your experience, love hearing your asthma's experience. Yet like in my current state, I have, there's no call, there's no desire to go and sit with any of these medicines. Yet in the background of my psyche, I know that down the road, at some point in time, I am going to have a potent experience at a necessary time. Yet at this current stage in my life, it's like raising my family is my medicine, Building the business is my medicine. And navigating living life abroad, learning more about myself, discovering my personal power in a sober embodied states, you know, is this medicine that I'm. That I'm harnessing. And I think this is the importance of like discernments and of self knowledge as well. Because sometimes having a journey like this at the wrong time, when it can be self portrayal as well. Right. Saying yes, just because someone else has a peak experience, even though you might not be ready for a peak experience, is that necessarily right for you? Yerasimos 01:10:38.080 - 01:11:07.120 Yeah, it's what the cool kids are doing these days. And oh, I'm going to do it because I want to be in the crowd that does it. And then I want to tell everyone that I did it and be like, oh, look, I did this thing, which I think happened a lot in the ayahuasca kind of world. And you know, especially in the last several years or 10 years, it became popular and like, well, I'm gonna do the thing that's popular. Even though have you really delved into it and thought about it and tuned in, like, this is. This is something that I truly, deeply want to do, or am I just doing it because, hey, it. My friends are doing it. Joel 01:11:08.080 - 01:11:08.400 Yeah. Mark 01:11:08.400 - 01:11:09.520 The intent is critical. Joel 01:11:09.680 - 01:11:10.160 Yes. Mark 01:11:10.160 - 01:11:19.560 Because without the proper intent, this stuff could be very dangerous and damaging and hurt someone on the journey. Doing it just because it's a fad is not the right way. I mean, I keep coming back to that word reverence. Joel 01:11:19.880 - 01:11:20.360 Yeah. Mark 01:11:20.440 - 01:11:28.600 You are interacting with something very serious. Loving, but serious. You don't just say, oh, everyone's doing it. I'm gonna go, dude. Yerasimos 01:11:29.080 - 01:11:49.180 Like, it's serious. When I think about ayahuasca, that was serious experience. And then you hear like all the, you know, the charlatans down in the jungle, like kind of, you know, messing with tourists that are just trying to do it. Oh, you could you do it? Okay, cool. Like, I have no idea who you are, but I heard it's a thing that I should do and I'm just gonna do it. Like that's. Yeah, not the way to go about it in my opinion. Mark 01:11:49.420 - 01:12:23.690 And for me, my life, overall life intention, my second book and into Upside Down Living. I, I start the book asking the reader the question, what is the overall intention of your life? And I seek to answer that question for myself in the book as of 2020, when I wrote it, through scientific, philosophical, spiritual exploration. But I think about that very often. What's the overall intention of my life? And it's very similar to what it was then, is that I think we are spiritual beings having human experience and we're here to evolve ourselves and fulfill whatever we're here to do authentically to the best of our ability, basically. And that often relates to love, if not always. We could tie everything back to love in some way. Joel 01:12:24.090 - 01:12:24.610 Yeah. Mark 01:12:24.610 - 01:12:49.540 So if that's really the intent of my life, that's why I left my job. Because it, what I was doing was taking me away from what I felt my intent was. And it, what, it's what led me to this journey of I want to, I want to up level and overcome things. And I think this is a way I could do it. So if anyone listening to this is considering any practice, medicine, somatic work, ifs to get really clear on your overall intention of your life and how your practices fit into that. Joel 01:12:50.900 - 01:12:52.260 Yeah, yeah. Yerasimos 01:12:52.340 - 01:13:06.230 Love is the answer. Love is the answer. And it is in a lot of ways. I agree, I agree. But you have to do this other. You have to know yourself on these deeper, deeper layers and can't just jump straight to like the love and the light. Joel 01:13:06.230 - 01:15:00.930 Well, I mean like we're saying throughout this conversation, if we're saying love and truth is synonymous, I think it's. Truth is the answer is like the easier term to digest because like that is going to lead you to places where when you hear the word love, it might not consciously guide you there, but when you hear the word truth, and at least for me in my personal journey, like how this started for me was literally me taking Michael Tercerian's words, zero tolerance for the lie, and applying that like radically to my internal states, that's going to guide you to fucking difficult conversations, difficult confrontations, difficult, difficult gazes in the mirror. Right. But that's what is going to lead you also to this experience of love. Because truth puts you in a state of equilibrium, a state of non contradictory being within oneself. I'm no longer at war with myself. I have integrity, I'm integral, I am whole. You know, and only from there it's like, oh wow, now I can experience real self love, a real reverence for self, because I'm not lying to myself. I'm not betraying myself in these unconscious ways. I respect the man in the mirror. I respect the man waking up each morning and doing what he sets out to do. And this is why so many of these new age manifestation reality creation techniques fail and fall short for so many people. Because is because they have to get to that state of integrity first. They have to have self esteem first. For this idea that self concept is destiny or you know, Neville Goddard living in the end, imagination, whatever it might be, you have to be in a state of self esteem and, and integrity first and foremost. And then that shit can work, in my opinion. But if you're bypassing the shadow, if you're bypassing the integration of truth, then it's just a circle jerk. Mark 01:15:04.850 - 01:15:30.860 Totally agree. I often reference Ken Wilber's work. He talks about lines of development, meaning that you can be highly developed in one way but not in others. And in the spiritual world, we often people talk, hear people talk about how they have this major awakening and that's just one line of development. They experience the divine. But Wilbur talks about waking up, cleaning up, growing up and showing up. And that's what you're referencing, Joel, As I said, we have a great reel. Yerasimos 01:15:30.860 - 01:15:53.720 We have a great reel on that from an earlier podcast. But it's true. I mean like with you, with you. But it's great and it really hits, hits the nail kind of on the head. Like there are different levels to this. Like, I'm not discounting someone who like, you know, goes into the jungle or goes on the top of the mountain and feels this connection to oneness. But that ain't all it right. I want to go back chasing that experience. Mark 01:15:55.160 - 01:17:10.020 I want to go back to love. Because you reminded me of a few things in my flood dose when I first entered, when the medicine kicked in, it told me, your life has been focused on accomplishments and not love. And then it pulled up my intentions, which I'll repeat again because I'm going to be thinking about this all the time. Myself. Show me how to serve God. Show me how to love myself. Show me how to receive and give love. Show me how to be fully authentic. It pulled them up and it said, okay, we're going to go through them. And it took me through my life and at one point when lots of emotion was present, it was very clear the answer to all intentions. There was love. But to your point, Joel, it's nuanced. What does that mean? Show me how to serve God. Love is the answer. Well, what does that mean? It, it, it also means through the truth and being truthful with yourself and expressing the truth. So I think that word even it's something I'm going to be integrating for a long time. What does it actually mean to be love loving? And what is giving, receiving and embodying love mean? I felt some very extreme sensations of love that were brought back to me from my young years and overwhelming. So that's. There's a felt sensation that's part of it, but truth is part of it too. So it's, it's a, a complex term that I don't fully understand yet. Joel 01:17:10.410 - 01:18:00.530 Yeah, well, I mean it's the classic people pleaser dilemma in a sense. The people pleaser who refuses to leave a dysfunctional relationship because they feel like the other person is going to crumble without them. And they call that love. They call that sacrifice. I'm just staying in it because I care about this other person so much. When in reality the path of truth leaving the relationship would lead to far less suffering and actual real learning, real integration for both parties, you know. And so this is, this is that relationship between love and truth. Like often what we think is love by self sacrifice and committing to something and saying yes to something because we fear of, we fear the devastation that will be caused without us or we think that we're self righteous, we're just staying committed to a thing which isn't helping anybody very often is the opposite of love and leads to the opposite result. Mark 01:18:03.900 - 01:18:09.100 It feels like short term harmony and that's love, but it leads to long term pain. Joel 01:18:09.260 - 01:18:11.900 Yes. Yes, man. Yerasimos 01:18:12.540 - 01:18:14.220 Sometimes you got to pull off the band aid. Mark 01:18:15.660 - 01:19:01.130 Yeah. Another overarching theme that I'm integrating is just being in that altered state that felt so familiar and was clearly spiritual and real is it helps with surrender and trust in life. And I feel myself just letting go of more. Whereas I've wanted to hold on tightly and this is something I've been practicing for a long time and have written about. But being there and being kept there for hours and hours is helping me let go. It's helping me also appreciate the preciousness of the time here. I felt that on a deep level. I could have said that before, but I felt it. This is very precious. So is the divine realm, but that's eternal. This is temporary. And that that brings a new just way of going about every second of life. Yerasimos 01:19:01.290 - 01:19:01.690 Yeah. Joel 01:19:01.690 - 01:19:32.950 Is it is it possible that like in this divine realm, there are spirits, like maybe us at one point, who were just itching at the bit to get into earth, to get into this experience, to get into this game, to have this, to go through this journey, to learn more, you know, is it possible that like, this is the place that we all really want to be and we all really want to experience, yet we forget the finite night, the finite of that, with the preciousness of that, the sacredness of that potential? Mark 01:19:33.510 - 01:19:50.000 You know, certainly heard that many people have reported that, that there's a waiting line of, of souls that want to come and incarnate. And that's more believable to me now having experienced this. But I didn't see that directly, conceptually that would make sense. Joel 01:19:52.320 - 01:20:49.040 You know, man, so much of it just has to do with our aversion to self responsibility. Because this idea of like heaven or the afterlife or the divine realm, for most people, when they hear it, it feels like the freedom from responsibility. They're no longer having to deal with the challenges of life, the burden of life, no longer having to deal with the challenge of building self esteem, of becoming a self, of learning, of growing, of evolving. That's fucking hell, bro. That place is hell, right? That's the socialist, communist, new age, utopic hell. Like for me, divinity is constantly becoming more, being able to call on more of self, be more of self, shoulder more responsibility, support more people through supporting self, you know, yet we want to get rid of that, we want to run away from that. And then we call that divinity. Mark 01:20:51.440 - 01:21:19.000 Appreciating that duality is real. There is some level of reality in which it is non dual and all one. But within some spiritual teachings, I think that gets overstated and misinterpreted and it leads people into a communistic perspective. Well, we're all one, so everything should be equal. And it's. It misses the reality that yes, I'm me and you guys are you and we're all separate while we're also interconnected. That paradox gets lost and it's actually really dangerous. Yerasimos 01:21:19.320 - 01:21:24.599 I agree. I mean, we've had multiple conversations about this, but I definitely agree with that. Joel 01:21:25.560 - 01:21:52.370 Yeah, and it's like what, what you're speaking into. I feel like when you mentioned, you know, like letting go and surrender, it's like self responsibility and surrender can coexist. In the sense that I am responsible for my life. I'm responsible for my orientation, for my direction, for the achievement of my values, to be action oriented, to be purposeful and at the same time, I can know that God's got me. Mark 01:21:53.490 - 01:21:53.890 Yeah. Joel 01:21:53.890 - 01:22:05.870 And at the same time, I can know by leaning deeper into that self responsibility, so does the love, reverence and respect that God has for me. And I'm. I'm able to receive more of that by offering more of that to myself. Mark 01:22:07.390 - 01:23:06.830 Surrender doesn't mean non action. It means letting go of the attachment to an outcome. So then we act with the best of our ability based on our integrity, and then the way it works out, who knows? I think about this as it relates to tennis a lot. What my coach used to say in college was, you play the percentages. So let's say I was going to serve in volley because I knew this guy had a pretty weak backhand. And I was going to. On a key point, I was going to serve in volley to this guy's backhand. And I knew there was risk because I was going to leave some of the court open. But 90% of the time that was going to work really well. But sometimes that 10% would hit and I'd lose a crucial point. But I was playing, I was playing in integrity and I had to surrender the outcome. And it's much easier to tolerate outcomes when you don't have an attachment to the outcome. And also when you think at a metaphysical level, how do we even know what the best outcome is supposed to be? Maybe I'm supposed to lose that tennis match as much as I want to win it, because it's going to teach me a lesson that's going to lead me to better things in the future. Joel 01:23:07.470 - 01:23:21.550 But your outcome is a lot more likely through knowledge, understanding and preparation. Right. Like you have a desired outcome, you have an intended outcome. It may fail 10% of the time in your tennis example, yet you're aiming for something. Mark 01:23:23.070 - 01:23:28.270 Right. There's a clear intent, and that's important too, is knowing what you're going for. Joel 01:23:28.830 - 01:23:32.350 Yes. Otherwise, how do we know where we are? Yerasimos 01:23:35.470 - 01:23:40.750 I feel that when I play table tennis, you know, if I serve to a person's backhand, I use a certain type of spin. Mark 01:23:42.030 - 01:23:43.310 You got a nasty spin. Man. Yerasimos 01:23:45.630 - 01:24:02.770 Oh, man. Oh. This was a very. This is a fun conversation that I didn't expect at all. In my mind, I was like, oh, we're gonna have a little bro chat. We're gonna talk about all these different things happening in the world, you know, because you' obviously into a lot of different subjects and we're going to get into a lot of different directions. And like, I just love, I love. Mark 01:24:02.770 - 01:24:33.720 That maybe we can touch on. On that conceptually, because I think about it a lot as people are up in arms constantly in states of enragement over the latest news. How do we balance this internal work, which I think is fundamental, with also knowing that these things are happening and there's some balance that's needed is to, like, understand what's happening for our own personal safety, but not to get lost in it and not to let our emotions get played out. I mean, to me, when I watch what's happening on social media, it's just people's traumas getting activated and playing out against each other. Yerasimos 01:24:34.120 - 01:25:18.820 That's it, man. That's what I notice all the time. And it's like, you always have to get to that place, though. You know, it's like you have to go through your journey, your experiences. I think back to when I used to get into arguments online years ago in certain ways, and it's like, I'm at a place now, and I had this conversation with dawn and her podcast that came out yesterday, Don Lester, and. And it's just like, I don't want to completely stick my head in the sand 100%. I like to have some knowledge and awareness of things that are happening and, like, open my heart a little bit to things that are going on and be. I have some concern and, like, there's so much out of my control, and what is in my control is everything we're talking about here. Our personal experience, like, understanding ourselves on a deeper level, is getting clear on who we are and what we want to do and give and. Mark 01:25:19.140 - 01:25:19.340 And. Yerasimos 01:25:19.340 - 01:25:31.700 And be in the world, you know, and how we want to build community with kindred spirits. Like, I just. I mean, I'm at a place now where, like, so yesterday, Sophie and I, we spent. We had our anniversary, our seventh anniversary. So we just. Mark 01:25:32.580 - 01:25:33.140 Thank you. Yerasimos 01:25:33.140 - 01:26:27.980 We decided to do no Tech Day on our anniversary, which, when we first moved here, we. We did like two or three days of it for an anniversary. We didn't go anywhere. We just were here. And, like, it was so amazing, you know, it was so amazing to have a completely zero tech Day and to be connected and to drop in on a whole new level and not be distracted about with all the different things that are going on in the world. And I don't know, I just. I find myself wanting to spend more time in my garden and, like, building what I'm building with Joel and, like, not having to know everything about every new thing that's going on that we're being blasted with on tv, on Our social media feeds. Like, I just, I want to feel joyful and loving and, and fulfilled and, and not being this like, I'm right, you're wrong, you're evil. I'm good. Dance. Joel 01:26:28.620 - 01:26:29.780 You eat babies. I don't. Yerasimos 01:26:29.780 - 01:26:31.020 Trust me anymore. What? Joel 01:26:31.180 - 01:26:32.700 You eat babies? I don't. Yerasimos 01:26:33.500 - 01:26:42.820 Yeah, things like that, you know. Like, what's the new thing? The Epstein files. Like a part of me, not to sound like full of myself, but like, okay, great, tell me something I didn't know for like for the last 15 years. Joel 01:26:42.820 - 01:27:49.090 You know. You know how like when we first started this journey of consciousness and like we would all kind of like make fun of our parents just always like being plugged into the mainstream news like CNN or Fox News or whatever it is. It's like that's what it feels like now with like the social media algorithms and like with Epstein, it's like we're just constantly scrolling this. Like we are the ones that are plugged in. Like again, you know, there's gonna be another generation looking back like laughing at us. Look at them just fucking still talking about the Epstein files. You know, it's like. And we know, we know that what you feed your subconscious mind impacts the kind of reality that you experience. Yet all this social, the social media algorithmic stuff, it's all, it's conscious capture. It's like literally capturing what you're feeding your mind and just feeding it regard, like regurgitated stuff that is never going to lead you ultimately anywhere, you know. And so like I really need to advocate for people to take control of what they're consuming on that level. Like it's so important. It's cannot, cannot be overstated. Mark 01:27:50.530 - 01:28:34.280 Yeah, it's a, it's the new pandemic. Just walk around an airport. I mean, everyone is glued to their device. It's unbelievable how quickly this happened. And I give the Beyond Ibogaine Clinic a lot of credit for this. The way they encourage you to stay off your device and for about a three day period around the flood dose, they take all of your electronics and I got to experience your osmos what you described. Just getting to be with myself, no distractions. And how toxic it is, the dopamine hit that we get from the devices and then we stay away from what we're actually feeling internally. So then we become less somatically in tune. This is going to become an increasingly big issue and I don't really know what the solution is because we do need our devices to some degree to communicate and we have to be in Touch. But yeah, you can't be tied to it. Joel 01:28:34.280 - 01:28:48.080 The solution is within the experience, like it always is. Like people have to go so deep into it, become so distracted, so discombobulated, so disoriented until the pendulum swings and it's like, oh, where are we? And then we start moving the other way again, you know. Mark 01:28:48.320 - 01:28:50.560 Yeah, but it's hard. It's addictive. Yerasimos 01:28:50.640 - 01:29:28.920 Well, but listen, we all listen. Many of us have our businesses online, you know, we're running multiple groups on telegram or whatever. It's like it's. We make that choice, you know, to do that and can we not be a slave to it and can we have some consciousness around it? You know, even if it's just like taking it. You talked about intention, taking an intentional day. For this day I will be off all technology. What is that going to do if you have kids? What is that going to do if you're in partnership, like where you have to be with them and present with them. I mean, you know, like yesterday was in a beautiful freaking day on my anniversary with my wife. Not on devices. Joel 01:29:29.240 - 01:29:29.640 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:29:29.640 - 01:29:40.760 Outside of at the end of the night, we have a ritual of watching our 38 minute wedding video every anniversary. That's what we do. But it was just, it just felt. I don't know. Joel 01:29:40.840 - 01:30:20.980 But I mean also part of self awareness is being able to take conscious stock of how you feel after taking certain activity or having a certain experience on a device. For example, I rarely feel good after the doom scrolling X. Rarely. Okay. I usually feel pretty good after going for a walk and listening to, you know, an audiobook on Spotify and using my device in that kind of way, you know. So how does an app or how does a certain activity on a device make you feel? If I'm inside Friends of the Truth, engaging with loving, intentional, caring people, engaging in conscious dialogue, I feel pretty good after that kind of usage. So like what's the level of usage that makes you feel a certain way? Yerasimos 01:30:22.900 - 01:30:41.540 Yeah, and it's also, it's so interesting to see people's reality states based on how much they're plugged into like the ongoings of what's happening in the world and the news cycle. Like, like I get it for some people, like certain things affect them more directly. Like if you're living in a state or, or in a city or in a neighborhood where there's some crazy happening. Joel 01:30:41.540 - 01:30:42.020 Cool. Yerasimos 01:30:42.020 - 01:32:08.890 But there's a lot of people where it's like they're, they're just like us. They just like they live. Let's say a middle, upper middle, whatever class life. They're doing their job but because they're so plugged in into like the socio politics and what's happening, it's like they're miserable, they're scared, they're, they're like the world is ending. Meanwhile I'm just like, this is like one of the best periods of my life. Like I feel so blessed, so many amazing things are happening. So many cool people in my life. What we're building, what we're building obviously with here for the truth, what Sophie and I are building in our communities, in our home and our land. Like I feel so blessed, I feel so optimistic. Doesn't mean I'm not like okay, there's some shit happening but like I feel like life is this beautiful gift and it's been work to get to this place. There's been lots of decisions that had to be made. A lot of the decisions that go against the status quo of how other people expected me to live my life. And so it's like I don't want to consume the doom scrolling all the time. I just don't. Yeah, but I used to love it. I used to love it and I love telling people about it and posting it on my stories. Like did you know about this? Did you know about that? Like I just don't, I don't feel the need to defend myself on things surrounding allopathic medicine, the scientific establishment. Me personally, I can only speak for myself. I just don't care about that. Joel 01:32:09.130 - 01:32:17.500 I mean we, we get the chance to do it in long form format with like real conscious dialogues. We can, we can't hear like we get our fix, you know here. Yerasimos 01:32:18.380 - 01:32:29.980 Yeah, that's the thing. Like oh, you care about what I think. Here you go. There's a podcast called Here for the truth. We've had 282 episodes of it. Like there you go. I, I'd rather post pictures of my cat on social media. Joel 01:32:30.300 - 01:32:56.810 You know what the worst kind of like capture is though that I observe is the influencer who has trained their audience to expect them to give an opinion on every geopolitical cultural event the moment it happens and then all of a sudden the moment anything happens. Let me write 17 opinions or takes on this on this thing. You know, that's like Pavlov's Bell to me. Something happened. Mark 01:32:59.369 - 01:33:14.710 It's something that three of us have had to deal with where an event happens and people want to know what we have to think about it or they ask us. And I've had to really practice only talking about things that I feel comfortable talking about and being very clear on my level of knowledge and ignorance on it. Yerasimos 01:33:14.710 - 01:33:15.070 That's it. Mark 01:33:15.070 - 01:33:16.230 And that's pulled in. Yerasimos 01:33:16.390 - 01:33:33.510 That's it. To be able to say, I don't know. Oh, this is what I believe to this degree right now. I'm a little. I'm not fully, like, educated on the subject. You know, these are my general feelings. But the absolutism, moment to moment, like, I don't know, it's just people get sucked in in a whole different way. Joel 01:33:35.350 - 01:34:02.160 I mean, the world. The world is always going to do what the world does is just like now we have access to a constant theater, to everything that's happening all the time. It's like, we didn't have that level of access before, so it didn't matter as much. But now we can walk into the theater any moment with 10,000 screens and see every form of, like, corruption, devastation, dysfunction that's happening 24, 7. It's like, no. How often do you want to be in that theater? Mark 01:34:03.760 - 01:35:18.900 And it's really accelerated since the Trump era because we see this moral superiority emerge and hatred like I've never seen in my life. And look, I'm. I espouse voluntarism, my book and End Upside Down Liberty. So I think all sides of the political spectrum are problematic. And I'm not saying that any politician is. Is perfect, but what we've seen in the last, what, 10 years or so, the amount of fear and hatred, and it's the way it takes people off their track, it feels very much like a concerted effort in terms of a form of mind control to get people off of their internal journey, to feel the sense of moral obligation and moral justification of hating others. It becomes very distorted because it actually counters the loving sensibility that they claim to endorse. In my book, An End to the Upside Down Reset, I talk about the psychology of this on the left, and of course, there's issues on the right, too, but. But it's. We are so compassionate that we're going to ignore the times that we're not compassionate because it would be too harmful and too hurtful to acknowledge that we're not compassionate. And that loop, I'm just seeing it on repeat, and it's just getting more and more accentuated. These otherwise loving people expressing hatred like I've never seen elsewhere. Yerasimos 01:35:19.620 - 01:36:04.740 Yeah. Do you think there's an issue also with, like. I mean, I tend to align with a lot of voluntary, voluntarious ideas Ideas. Do you think there's an issue though where people like project their ideals and, and like what they think is how things should be onto reality and then reality doesn't mirror it back. So then that means everything is like a psyop, everything's fake and no good is happening and everyone's co opted because it's like, well this is reality. Like geopolitics is doing its own thing in its own way and it's not going to be all Kumbaya, non coercion. Let's not have any military, let's not have any, you know, let's not go into other countries to, to like whatever, you know what I mean? Joel 01:36:04.740 - 01:36:18.940 Like yeah, what he's speaking into is like this expectation that these people have that unless someone comes into office, dismantles every institution immediately and privatizes everything and decentralizes everything, then they're controlled up, you know. Yerasimos 01:36:21.830 - 01:36:24.790 Like, I'm curious your, I'm curious your thoughts. Feels like. Mark 01:36:24.790 - 01:39:21.010 Yeah, yeah. My perspective on voluntarism and if your audience isn't familiar with this concept, it's the idea that the way we do government around the world, there's a political term for this, it's known as statism. It is a political structure. It's. It's a compulsory political monopoly where there is no explicit and mutually agreed upon agreement between service provider, I. E. Person in society, citizen and the government that is ruling them. Whereas in other arrangements, like if you hire a law firm, you are a customer and you hire that law firm and there is often a contract that specifies what the potential termination is, what the cost is, all that's mutually agreed upon and explicitly determined between the parties. We have certain services in society where there's implied consent, there's a social contract where if you live in a certain jurisdiction, this political monopoly can do things that you didn't agree to explicitly. And some in the common law community will say, well you actually did agree to it. But I'm talking about mutually agreed upon stuff. That's, that's our current arrangement in society where there is this entity that can do things that you didn't explicitly agree to. Voluntarism says that all interactions should be explicitly voluntary. And if you contract with a service provider, there should be an agreement between the parties. And the non aggression principle states that no one should initiate aggression against another person or the property they own. And if someone does initiate aggression, then there's a right to self defense. That's the basic principle that would run this theoretical society. So I would say I am a theoretical, philosophical believer in voluntarism. I think that actually aligns with natural law. Everything I've researched in the spiritual realm, that's where we should get to. Clearly we're not there, and I don't know the path to get there. So I think it's important to talk about what this looks like, this other notion that you're discussing, which is important to bring up that if you don't believe every aspect of voluntarism, you must be controlled up. That's its own form of mind control and imposing a belief system on an observation. I often talk about this logical fallacy, affirming the consequent basically, if X, then Y. Y, therefore X. I observed the grass outside is wet, therefore it rained, because rain would explain wet grass. And that's what people will do. Well, we see this pattern of behavior, and if they were controlled off, we would see this pattern of behavior. Therefore they're controlled up. And they leave out every other possibility. Maybe there were sprinklers, maybe there were children running by who poured water on the grass. Maybe the person was just naive and didn't really know what was going on and they ended up supporting a cause that looks like they're controlled up, but they actually innocently did it. So there's. We have to be nuanced in understanding people's motives. When we see things in the public domain, there can be a tendency to attribute malicious intent. And we actually don't know that until we're inside their mind. And it's possible in some cases people are malicious, but in other cases that maybe they're not controlled up, maybe they're just innocently making mistakes. Maybe they're mind controlled. Maybe they're blackmailed, maybe they're bribed, Maybe. Joel 01:39:21.010 - 01:39:23.730 They'Re on a learning journey like all of us. Yerasimos 01:39:25.410 - 01:39:32.370 Yeah, maybe not everything's, like, predetermined by a group of 12 people in a boardroom, you know, which I think some things may be. Joel 01:39:32.370 - 01:39:32.690 But. Yerasimos 01:39:33.330 - 01:39:37.260 Yeah, yeah, like no, no, you go. Joel 01:39:37.500 - 01:39:54.300 Like, what would you guys say, as a general rule of thumb, that you believe that, I guess the psycho spiritual consciousness of the collective, that is humanity, is moving in a positive direction? Broad, broad strokes. Generally speaking. Yerasimos 01:39:56.700 - 01:40:03.330 I don't know. That's a tough question. In some ways, you know, there's a part of me wants to say yes, and a part of me wants to say no. I don't know. Mark 01:40:03.890 - 01:40:04.770 I say yes. Joel 01:40:05.810 - 01:41:24.430 I say yes to. And I think basically another way to say that is that we're building our capacity for truth. You know, to me, that's. That's all evolution is. It's building one's capacity for truth. And so with that being said, like, I don't really care as much how the facades on the wall shift for us to get to the most evolved or a more evolved state, like, obviously there's a process that has to take place in terms of like, what government has to look like over a series of years or decades or centuries, whatever it might be for us. But the thing that I care about is continuous improvement. You know, and for me, even though it can seem very minuscule at times, my personal observation is that broad strokes, we are generally moving in the right direction now. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't always hold people accountable to the higher standards. We absolutely should. But I think also sometimes we can be too quick to criticize every little thing and thus also potentially hindering a natural process of growth and evolution. Mark 01:41:26.350 - 01:41:32.510 Yeah, I think we're seeing it play out in real time with all the turmoil in the world. People working through their stuff. Yerasimos 01:41:32.830 - 01:42:42.120 Yeah, working through their stuff. And also just like the realizations, like, I still think Back to like 10 years ago, like, if I were, if you were told me 10 years ago that like people this many people would be questioning vaccines, that like someone like RFK Jr, whatever you think of him personally and the administration, that someone like him who has been, you know, fighting for, quote, unquote, vaccine safety would like be in a certain position in the government and then the, the food pyramid would change. Like, again, I'm just like, the things that people are talking about on a greater sphere, you know, it wasn't that way 10 years ago. Even, even like with the whole Epstein stuff, like, there are people I'm reading online and even like there are people in my life are getting messages from people that they knew or that they know. They're like, hey, I have to offer you an apology for you talking about some of this pizza gate stuff like 10 years ago, you know, because it's like, again, like, like this stuff more people are becoming aware of. And again, in terms of what exactly is true, how much we can trust. I think for a lot of people, they've real. They're realizing more that there are people in power. Not all, but some people in power that are into some dark. Joel 01:42:43.380 - 01:42:43.660 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:42:43.660 - 01:42:45.780 That like, are highly traumatized. Joel 01:42:46.580 - 01:42:47.140 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:42:47.780 - 01:43:25.100 And. And that like they're taking off the rose colored glasses and. And so for me, I like seeing that. I like seeing the movement towards more people distrusting mainstream media. Twenty years ago, 30 years ago, that wasn't a thing. And seeking out alternatives, getting into podcasts doesn't mean everything you hear on every podcast is going to be the truth or closer to the truth. But the fact that more and more people are challenging the status quo and these conventional institutions, I'm, I'm all for it. Even if it's going to be fucking messy and uncomfortable, like you're going through an ibogaine freaking treatment. Joel 01:43:25.420 - 01:44:22.790 It's a nice microsome of this idea, but you know, it's like there's people that have been like, you know, anti vaccine advocates for a lot longer than I have. I consider myself to be in the movement relatively early compared to the masses that came in 2020. For me, it started 2015. But if, for example, in 2015, when I first started, you know, being interested in this stuff, someone came along and said, I'm going to reduce the vaccine schedule from 72 vaccines to 10 vaccines, the people at that point in time would have been like, what the fuck? This is a cosmic galactic shift that is happening. How could this even be possible to be disseminated to the masses at this level of governance, you know, yet now we experience the reality. That's like the haterade, bro. That comes back. It's like, come on man, virus is real. Like, have some gratitude and reverence for where we've been and where we are now. Yerasimos 01:44:25.350 - 01:44:27.270 Those are our thoughts. What are your thoughts, Mark Gober? Mark 01:44:27.350 - 01:44:47.130 I agree with you guys. And there's beauty in the Biden administration and the Trump administrations because all sides got to have their ibogaine journeys through all the things that they disliked and were forced to confront. And so I think that's evolutionary while uncomfortable and all the geopolitical stuff that goes with it. Yerasimos 01:44:47.690 - 01:46:01.990 Yeah, dude, I agree. And it's like, even when I talk about, in the context of parts work, you know, you can learn so much about yourself by what you highly, highly judge and then what you highly, highly put on the pedestal. You know, those are two entry points. They're really learning about what is disowned within you or what's undeveloped within you. And if you, if you approach it that way, there's so much wisdom that can come from paying attention to your somatic responses to people, to places, to things. And I think like you said, it's all beautiful in that sense. Like it is. If you take it that way. If you go on this journey, if you sit with the discomfort, if you have the capacity to question oneself and not just be in this self righteous state, I'M the good one, y' all are the evil one. Like, people have gone so black and white and so overly polarized and overly simplistic. It is like, it's laughable. It's laughable to just see, like, the NPC behavior of regurgitation slogans and statements and without any sort of, like, letting something land and then to grapple with it on some deeper, psychospiritual philosophical level. And it's just like. Let me just go directly into, like, judgment. Joel 01:46:02.150 - 01:46:05.270 I love, I love how Mark's taking notes like he's in a seminar. Mark 01:46:06.390 - 01:46:08.390 I want to let you guys go, but I have things to say. Joel 01:46:09.269 - 01:47:09.440 Yeah, I love it. One of my favorite. It's such a potent quote just to like, pontificate on Ralph Waldo Emerson. People do not seem to realize that their opinion of their. Of the world is also a confession of their character. And it's like, so if you find yourself in this state where you're just constantly like, it's not good enough. Just constantly, like, fucking judging, throwing shade, your entire identity is absorbed on how. How corrupt like, everything is. Like, take that as an opportunity to self reflect on what is the real state of your internal world and how optimistic you feel about your personal life. Because just maybe the level of optimism and gratitude and reverence and awe that you have or may not have for the external world, maybe it has something to do with what's happening inside you as well. Yerasimos 01:47:12.800 - 01:47:14.400 Okay, go reference those notes, Mark. Mark 01:47:15.040 - 01:47:43.640 I was just re listening to parts of the. David Hawkins's last book. It's called Letting Go, the Pathway of Surrender. And it's usually the first book I recommend to anyone who's doing personal development. And I was on the part of the book where he talks about pride and how dangerous pride is and how it leads to judgment and how pride is actually an irrationality because it presupposes that you really know everything. You know how something is supposed to. Joel 01:47:43.640 - 01:47:44.200 Be in the world. Mark 01:47:44.490 - 01:48:33.220 Maybe someone is supposed to act a certain way for reasons that we can't understand because it's going to lead to growth or something. So judgment. Hawkins talked a lot about the term non judgmentalism to understand that actually it's a form of arrogance to judge. That doesn't mean not to have a sense of morality, but to have a charge associated with the judgment. We can say that this is wrong and have a righteous sense of, like, if we see someone murdering another person to get in the way of that. But to have judgment on any situation at the highest metaphysical level, we can't do that. So there is this balance of having morals, but also knowing at the highest level we can't know the full truth. And that helps us let go of pride, because pride is leading to a lot of these negative emotions that we're seeing all over the place. Joel 01:48:33.380 - 01:49:12.520 Is it pride or is it arrogance? Because to me, pride. That's actually reverence invoking when I hear the word pride. Because isn't pride like this? And than this is his definition the emotional reward for achievement, for having accomplished something, for having set out and then done it. And then you get this internal hit where it's like, oh, wow, that's pretty cool. You know, as opposed to this arrogance of, like, rid. Rigidity and I know everything, and this vanity and this false humility. Mark 01:49:14.680 - 01:49:39.990 I think it depends on how we define pride and maybe the charge associated with the juice that we get out of an achievement. Where is that coming from? Is it coming from the joy of having served the world, or is it coming from the feeling of superiority of why I need to be better than other people? I mean, which is getting two distinctions between arrogance and pride. I mean, they're related. Joel 01:49:40.310 - 01:50:11.290 I mean, let's take it. Let's take it to your. Your. This ongoing tennis metaphor, right? Like, if you get better at what you're doing, if all of a sudden Your serve is 5km faster, it's more accurate. You start dominating players that used to have it over you and that thing that's happening within you, oh, I'm getting better. My. My hard work is paying off. Like, this feels pretty good. Like, that's a healthy. That's a healthy sense of pride. In my personal opinion. Mark 01:50:13.849 - 01:50:19.130 Is there another word for it? Sense of accomplishment, feeling of self, love. Joel 01:50:19.290 - 01:50:26.820 I like pride, man. You're not taking pride from. From us. Yeah, I think. I think the other word is arrogance. Yerasimos 01:50:27.300 - 01:50:45.940 I mean, it literally says right here, pride, a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with. With whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired. Consciousness of one's own dignity. Those are like, just the first two definitions that showed up when I searched in Google. Mark 01:50:46.020 - 01:51:01.110 I mean, yeah, in the context that Hawkins was using, it was basically a fixation on what he calls a positionality of. Of I know this with certainty and therefore I'm better. Which is more like arrogance. Yerasimos 01:51:01.110 - 01:51:06.190 Yeah, like, because. Because you said. Is there another word. I would say. Is there another word that Hawkins should have used? Joel 01:51:06.190 - 01:51:07.750 Yeah, arrogance. I think it's arrogance. Yerasimos 01:51:07.910 - 01:51:08.470 You know. Joel 01:51:10.390 - 01:51:10.910 Here for the. Yerasimos 01:51:10.910 - 01:51:13.350 Here for the semantics here for the semantics. Joel 01:51:16.790 - 01:51:26.880 Okay. You know, as we get, I guess the tail end of this conversation, I kind of want to tick off some housekeeping for those that are curious, like, what was the cost of this 10 day a burger? Mark 01:51:28.400 - 01:51:35.280 It's very expensive and I, I don't even want to quote it because they might change their prices and someone could hear this in a few years. It's very expensive. Joel 01:51:35.600 - 01:51:36.320 Okay. Yeah. Mark 01:51:36.320 - 01:51:57.580 And if you think it's sooner, if there's, if there's an availability soon, you end up paying more for that. My where I am right now, and I think I said this earlier, if this is not a financial burden to you, if you're here for the truth and you want to develop yourself, and if you have the time and space and if this medicine calls to you, I think beyond is the best thing you could do to jumpstart your evolution. Joel 01:51:58.620 - 01:52:00.860 Cool, bro. And what's your current bitcoin holdings? Yerasimos 01:52:01.500 - 01:52:05.580 I was just going to say hold off. Hold on for dear life or whatever it's called. Joel 01:52:05.580 - 01:52:05.980 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:52:06.700 - 01:52:09.500 Regarding. Like going to look with, with. Mark 01:52:09.580 - 01:52:13.670 With bitcoin, you've got to be able to withstand the ups and downs. It's going to be valid. Yerasimos 01:52:13.990 - 01:52:15.590 Exactly right. Joel 01:52:15.670 - 01:52:20.150 Bitcoin, bro. One. One bitcoin goes one bitcoin, bro. Come on. There are no ups and downs. Yerasimos 01:52:21.030 - 01:52:24.070 Yeah, it's very interesting times, man. Very interesting times. Joel 01:52:25.430 - 01:52:33.670 I'm so just like pleasantly satisfied with this conversation. I feel proud of this conversation that we've had. Yerasimos 01:52:34.150 - 01:52:36.110 I feel proud too that we had this conversation. Mark 01:52:36.110 - 01:52:37.820 You know, I'm here for the pride. Joel 01:52:38.140 - 01:52:43.300 Here for the pride, bro. Anything you want to. I guess in part, in closing, I. Mark 01:52:43.300 - 01:53:04.120 Want to thank you guys for all that you do for our friendship. Love you guys. And thank you for having me on the show. In some ways, I feel almost self conscious that you've had me on four times. I don't really feel like I know that much that I'm really early in the journey and hopefully that's helpful to people. But I have a long way to go and I appreciate that you allow me to share my journey. Yerasimos 01:53:04.510 - 01:54:09.290 Of course, man. We. We all have a long way to go. We're all human. You know what I mean? It's like, we're like we're sharing something in real time. We're sharing our experiences, we're sharing our views. You know, be one thing if we came on every podcast and act and acted arrogantly, you know, and, and like we knew everything, but we don't. And also, we've only had you on Four times. You've written seven books, man. We got to have you on at least three more times just to be equal. But dude, you have so much to offer. You've been through an interesting journey and because you're a human being that has walked the road less traveled, that said no to a life of, let's say, success in quotes, you know, like, if you stayed on that journey, became partner and kept betraying yourself, your life would be different. But you said no. You, you, you took, you had courage to make a different choice, to go against the norm, the status quo, the expectations of parents, families, peer, etc, and like through that process you've done something that probably point000001% of the people on this planet have or could do, which is write like seven books in like a six year period or eight year. Joel 01:54:09.290 - 01:54:12.410 Period, whatever that is, before most of them. Before AI. Yerasimos 01:54:13.370 - 01:55:37.200 Yeah. And so like, you know, you, everyone has their unique gift to give to the world and you're continuing to discover it, just like Joel and I are continuing to discover it. But on that journey you happen, your character just happened to be like, I'm just going to like buckle down for three months and write an entire book on the issues I have with allopathy or cosmology or politics or whatever. And it's pretty incredible. And so we love having conversations with you, man. I look forward to future conversations. I didn't know we were going to get into this. I admire you for the bravery to go on this journey as well, to go, hey, let me have this life experience experience. I don't know what it's going to be like, but I'm going to set very clear, strong intentions on what I want and then let's see what happens. And so I admire you for being a person like that. I admire you for being here for the truth. I admire you for saying it. Like I have a certain idea of who I want to be and how I want to feel in my body. And right now at this current moment, maybe I'm not feeling those things or being those things. So what is there that can support me and help guide me? And so I commend you for living a heroic life in that sense. Even though there may be parts of you that think, Mark, you're not living a heroic life, Mark, you're not doing these things. Like, you know, you have a lot to offer and I just value, and I'm so grateful to call you a friend, a brother. And I just can't wait to continue life having you in my Life. Mark 01:55:39.760 - 01:56:05.080 Likewise, man. Thank you for that. And you reminded me of something that happened during my supplemental dose when I was pacing back and forth at the back lawn at the White House of beyond, behind the pool for hours and hours. And there was this part of me that was in so much discomfort, and I was like, am I really doing this? But then I thought to myself, what is the alternative? There's no alternative. Joel 01:56:05.560 - 01:56:06.000 Yeah. Mark 01:56:06.000 - 01:57:08.060 This is the only path. And I've had to make that decision at different points in my life. I mean, leaving my firm after making partner was really hard because I was on a secure path in my life and I was giving that up, not knowing what was next. I didn't know I was going to be writing more books. The idea for book number two came in when I made the decision I was going to leave my job. Up until then, it was one book. Yeah, but it's. I think I'm saying this because we're all going to go through this. If your audience members haven't been through it already, where it's this, you have to go right or left. And it's a. It's a question of your commitment. And at the point where I am, the way I view reality, there's only one way to go, and it's to keep going down this personal development path. No more self betrayal here for the truth. Coming on with you guys and talking about this stuff publicly, something I never would have done not long ago, probably. And it's like, no, what are my values? I have to align with my values. Otherwise that's not love to not align with my values. This conversation is going to help a lot of people. We all know that. Yerasimos 01:57:08.220 - 01:57:08.700 Yeah. Mark 01:57:08.780 - 01:57:10.300 We have to do this, dude. Yerasimos 01:57:10.300 - 01:57:28.380 I'm blown away by what you shared too, man. I didn't. I didn't think you just fresh out of the experience because I know you like to keep some things close to the vest, and I admire that as well. But like, to share what you share, to be open and vulnerable in the way that you were about this deeply personal experience, again, it's just. It's showing your growth as a human being. Mark 01:57:28.870 - 01:57:38.670 Thank you. And I wish I could have shared more. Like I said, there are reasons that have nothing to do with me that, that would add depth to this, of how intense and serious this is. But I think you got the point, dude. Yerasimos 01:57:38.670 - 01:57:49.750 In a year and two years, you continue your process. Who knows what conversation we'll have in a year and two years? Yeah, you know, about. About our lives and where we're at and what we're learning and how we're growing and how we're shifting and how we're changing. Joel 01:57:50.310 - 01:58:51.200 Yeah, and what you're speaking to about that, that discomfort in that conversation where you're like, there are no alternatives. It's like what you're speaking to is like a key aspect of what's necessary on this. That is the willingness to burn the fucking boats time and time again. That's what being here for the truth requires. It's like there is no other choice. And when I really deeply, on an embodied, intuitive level know that the truth is the highest path, regardless of the rocky road that it might take to traverse, to continue to on that path, there is, there is no choice. Joseph Campbell the cavey fits. And to hold the treasure you seek, you're entering that cave time and time and time and time again. It's self masochistic in a sense, but ultimately it's the only part that in my view leads to real deeper fulfillment. And that deeper fulfillment is just, wow, I like being me here and now. And that's something that no one can pay for and no one can take from you. Mark 01:58:52.160 - 02:00:00.950 But I want to emphasize something here. There's a spiritual underpinning to this discussion and very much so in my life that would not make any of this possible for me. And that was where my journey started in 2016. I started exploring the idea that consciousness does not come from the brain and all that entails, that the human being as a body might be a vessel for something bigger. Without the spiritual underpinning, this sense of direction and need for integrity and necessity of growth wouldn't make sense to me. So I think that's an important contextual backdrop and understanding that there is a higher power, that we are a part of a higher intelligence, and even throwing around the G word, God, which I was really hesitant to use early in my journey, but it's, it just feels more and more right in terms of what it represents. And in the, in the psychedelic space, for me, that word is just like flowing out. Things that I've talked about before are, are a known sense. Things like we are vehicle, we are instruments of the divine. I'm just like, you know, spouting this stuff out as if it's an absolute truth. But when you have that contextual backdrop, of course you're going to be here for the truth. Because at some level, truth is love, is God. I mean, they're all starting to flow with each other is reality. Yerasimos 02:00:01.030 - 02:00:01.550 Yep. Mark 02:00:01.550 - 02:00:49.650 Without that, imagine my formerly atheistic self or agnostic self who cares if I'm here for the truth, I'm going to die anyway. Yeah, sure, I could be happy for a little bit, but doesn't really matter. That sense of bigger significance is important and something I'm still toying with. And I actually want your opinion on this, guys. What's at stake here in the psychedelic state for me, I enter this, I go back into like tennis, investment banker warrior mode, or even book writing mode of, like, there's a lot at stake here. Sure, we need to be joyful and be loving, but part of being loving is this matters. And we live in a world where we need restoration of the truth, and we've gotten away from that. So. But then part of me says, is that just your ego coming in, that it has to be about purpose and everything? Can't we just. Is it all going to be okay? What do you guys think your life. Joel 02:00:49.650 - 02:01:24.550 Is the message, bro, like you said it before, it's like your life is the message. Like, by you focusing on your personal journey and continuing to build your own personal capacity for truth and following the most authentic path possible to you, to me, that has the greatest ripple effect and consequence onto the collective, and it's the most powerful work that you can do. I think the people that are primarily and very often pseudo externally focused, they, they don't get anywhere near the results that the person who just embodies the idea that my life is the message is going to ultimately have. Yerasimos 02:01:25.510 - 02:01:50.590 Yeah, and that's pretty much what I was going to say, you know, like, you're doing it right now. Like you're, you're the living example of, of living with authenticity. And how does that impact your family? How does that impact your community? And then what, what, what's the ripple effect of that? You know, more and more people betraying themselves less and less and less because they're witnessing you do it less and less and less. And I think that's where the magic happens. Mark 02:01:53.470 - 02:01:58.390 Right? And the ultimate purpose of all that we may never fully understand on a cosmic level, we don't, we don't know. Yerasimos 02:01:58.390 - 02:02:11.100 The full well and. Yeah, and I think, like, being, like, surrendering to the mystery is a part of it, you know, like, can, can I surrender to not knowing at all and just, you know, keep, you know, chop wood, carry water? Joel 02:02:11.180 - 02:02:57.140 Yeah, I, I prefer to pull it out of the cosmic level and not think about things at a cosmic level or at a high level. I prefer to think things through on a mythological level and a depth level because that's a little bit Closer to home. What is the unique calling of my soul? What is the unique amalgamation of my skills and interests? Where is my unique intuition guiding me like to me, that's where we need to pay attention to. That's where we need to live. That is the quote unquote cosmic purpose which is now emboldened as a map on your soul, on your heart. And that's what we all here to learn how to read, how to understand and how to offer as as a living example in the world. You know. Mark 02:03:02.590 - 02:03:02.990 Love it. Yerasimos 02:03:03.230 - 02:03:11.550 Mark, how can our audience support you and find you and do you have a website? I mean, obviously everyone listening to this should go support Mark and buy all of his books. Mark 02:03:12.590 - 02:04:03.940 I have a website. It's my name. Markgober.com M A R K G O B E R dot com. There are seven books, they're all on Amazon in hard copy, Kindle and auditable formats published between 2018 and 2024. I narrated all the audibles myself. About half of my readers like to listen and it's my voice if you want that. And I have a podcast series which people are still listening to. It's an eight episode docu series called where is My Mind On Spotify Apple podcasts called, you know, again, where is My Mind? There are a few Where's My Minds on those platforms. So it's Where Is My Mind With Mark Gober and Blue Duck Media. And if you listen to that, I recommend starting with episode one and going to episode eight because it's designed for that, where the episodes build on each other and it's about the nature of consciousness. Is there an afterlife? Are psychic phenomena real? And I interviewed many scientists and experiencers in that realm. Joel 02:04:04.340 - 02:04:07.140 Mark. Mark was doing telepathy tapes before. Telepathy types. Mark 02:04:08.580 - 02:04:15.380 Well, Dr. Diane Powell from the telepathy tapes is on the podcast talking about telepathic autistic savants. Yeah, and it's in my first book too. Joel 02:04:15.700 - 02:04:29.600 Yeah, dude, appreciate you. Love you. Thank you for honoring your unique path and walking that path and sharing it with us, man. That's the most meaningful thing in the world. So thanks for being you and everyone else. Thank you for listening. Mark 02:04:30.160 - 02:04:30.960 Thank you guys.