Sophie Fletcher, PhD Functional Freeze & the Hidden Cost of Keeping It Together

[Speaker 3] Sophie Fletcher, PhD, returns to Hear for the Truth. She's a somatic nervous system practitioner. She first joined us on episode three. Was it three? No, five. Of Hear for the Truth. Three was Jaguar. Three was Jaguar. Five, Hear for the Truth. She joined us on episode 200, episode 140. Her approach is grounded in a simple belief that you already have what you need, your system just might need support in accessing it. And she teaches from the ground up, meeting you wherever you are, without assuming you should already know the language or the framework. She is a co-facilitator inside Rise Above the Herd and Wrath Academy. And she is unfortunately married to this guy right here. My co-host, Yerasimus. Oh, hello, Yerasimus. [Speaker 2] What's up? What's going on? That was good. That was good. You beat me to it. I was going to make a joke, but you won. Nice. [Speaker 3] Oh, man. What a ride, guys. [Speaker 1] I'm here for the jokes, guys. I'm just here for the jokes. [Speaker 3] What a ride from humble beachside Sydney, driving in my car, listening to an episode of Unslaved and hearing one angelic voice in my ear. Of Sophie's. And one demonic, slightly over-the-top voice being Yerasimus. And thinking, these guys are pretty interesting. And I had nerves in reaching out to Sophie. So I deferred to Yerasimus. I was like, let me just message Yerasimus first and see what comes of it. And maybe I'll get to connect with Sophie later down the line. And yeah, so Yerasimus took the bait, obviously. And here we are. [Speaker 1] I've actually always wondered that. Why did you reach out to Yerasimus instead? Or even like the two of us? [Speaker 2] Because he's married. He's not gonna reach out to a girl. [Speaker 1] But the two of us. [Speaker 2] Listen, he reached out to me for a reason, okay? [Speaker 1] It was the wise choice. I was never gonna have... [Speaker 2] Yeah, Sophie probably would have like not have responded or forgot the message or like seen it in the requests folder and ignored it for three years, you know? So no worries. It's right. While you were talking, I just want you to know I had to take some fierce compassion, Lotus Way, Flower Essence, just to have compassion for you, Joel, okay? [Speaker 3] Makes sense. Makes sense. I need all the compassion I can get right now, for sure. Nah, but for real, love you guys. Appreciate you both. What a ride. Here we are, episode 297. [Speaker 1] Dude, what you guys have been doing is so incredible. [Speaker 3] Almost five years. [Speaker 1] It is really, really, really incredible. I really love it. [Speaker 3] Yeah, five years in. Fresh off connecting in person at Confluence a few weeks ago. Now, always good to drop in. Sophie, I absolutely loved your presentation from what I got to see with it as I was back and forth with kids. But like one thing that really landed for me was this idea of, I think you called it like truth-seeker freeze, in a sense, where it was like, oh no, the sky. Oh no, the news. Oh no, the fluoride. Oh no, the government. And like, what is that doing on like a micro level when we allow these oh no moments to kind of compound within our system? I kind of want to start there, if that's cool with you. [Speaker 1] Yeah, I mean, that's diving into the concept of functional freeze, right? So this happens when we're in like an inescapable attack. What happens is, for anyone who hasn't listened to the other episodes, I guess, really, really quickly, polyvagal theory, there's three main sort of... I don't know why I'm blinking on this. [Speaker 3] You're nervous. You're nervous. You're in front of a graffiti, like it makes sense. [Speaker 1] Three main states within your nervous system, right? So there's the ventral vagal, that social engagement, that's connected, that's feeling safe, that's feeling good. Then if there's a threat detected, your next form of response is going to be dropping into the sympathetic. Sympathetic is activation. It's energy into the body. It's fight, flight. It's what do I need to do to protect myself from what's happening right now? If that isn't available, if the threat is overwhelming, if the tiger has already gotten you, anything like that, your system is going to drop into its deepest form of self-preservation and protection, and that's going to be the dorsal vagal. So dorsal vagal is completely shut down, collapsed, dissociated. It's I'm getting ready to die, basically. And so your body is doing everything it can to make this as painless as possible. So it's flooding you with different hormones, but it's really limp inside, right? So you've already sort of decided, oh, this is the end, and so I'm not going to feel what's happening. So that's called high tone dorsal. That's our deepest state of this, of survival. But in between these three main states, you have blended states, because this isn't like, oh, I jump into this state, and then I jump into that state, and I'm 100% in any of these states. There's times when you're sort of like floating in between, or there's 75% sympathetic and 25% dorsal, things like that, where you're kind of moving in between things. And so these are called, the real in-betweens are called blended states, and they're a spectrum, right? So we're moving through the spectrum of all these different states. And regulation, just to reiterate, because I always really like to go back to this, regulation is being able to move through all of these states as seamlessly as possible in the appropriate times of these needing to be responses, and then being able to come back into more of that ventral vagal social connection when there isn't a threat. So regulation, or a lot of people refer to dysregulation as, oh, I'm upset. No, that's not dysregulation. There may be parts of it in terms of maybe you're having a larger reaction than is appropriate to the situation. However, people use that as just like, I'm not calm, cool, and collected. That's incorrect. [Speaker 3] And then the misnomer becomes that calm, cool, and collected means regulated as well. [Speaker 1] Exactly. Calm, cool, and collected is regulated. It's where we're always supposed to be 100% of the time. No, not at all. It's inappropriate. If there's a physical attack happening for you to be calm, cool, and collected, that's actually a form of dysregulation. You need to be responding. You need to be moving into that sympathetic or into that high tone dorsal, whatever's happening. And so it's more about the appropriateness, the appropriate response to the stimulus that is happening. And so if we come back to this, what you were talking about, freeze is this blended state between sympathetic and dorsal, high tone dorsal. So both of these things are on. It's the brake pedal of that dorsal with the gas pedal of the sympathetic. So think of it, the appropriate response is like the opossum playing dead or the deer in headlights. It freezes because it doesn't know what to do yet. It doesn't know, am I already caught or do I need to fight back? Or in the possum playing dead, it's like it knows that it's the majority of its predators don't want to eat something that's already dead, right? They know they sort of have evolved to know this already. And so if they play dead, that's actually protection for them. However, we as humans, I think the biggest sort of issue the biggest thing that people are dealing with is this new sort of thing called functional freeze. So functional freeze is where you're pretty much numb, dissociated, not connected to what's happening, but you're still functional, right? So you can still show up to what you need to do. You're still going to your job. You're still, you know, hanging with friends. You're still doing these things in a quote-unquote functional way, but there's a disconnection from the inside. There's a numbness inside. Maybe when you're alone, this is like extreme like procrastination or like inability to do things that like wired and tired that knowing your to-do list and just not doing it. That's what happens when we're in sort of like this chronic freeze state from these quote-unquote inescapable attacks. So if we bring it back to more of like, you know, extreme health consciousness or you could say like, you know, more of the conspiracy theories or just these things where it's like, if you become more and more and more aware of things outside of your control, right? Like the chemtrails or as you said, the fluoride in the water or glyphosate or, oh my God, I can't eat this and I can't eat that and I can't breathe air because that's now poisoned and I can't look at the sun because that's bad. Like all of these things, that compounds as threats in your system. And so all of a sudden your system is going to be too overwhelmed. It's not going to know what to do. I can't fight. I mean, I can like, you know, rally or oppose or, you know, try to get into the government or whatever. But if you're not doing those things, it's like now you're just, you just feel threatened all the time. You feel like you're under attack all the time and there isn't this threat to be fighting, this threat to be fighting. There's no tiger to actually be like physically grappling with or trying to get away from. And so you end up in this, what's known as functional freeze where you're just under attack constantly and your system's not designed for that. [Speaker 3] Yeah. So like, even like beyond the quote unquote truth seeker paradigm, what are some of the other factors that might lead through functional freeze? Because this seems like a pretty pervasive state amongst society today. Like could even like the quiet giving up of in this dead end relationship and I feel like I can't do anything about it. I'm in this job that doesn't inspire me and I feel like I can't do anything about it. Like can these be quiet attacks on the self as well? [Speaker 1] Like I would say if you had stayed, right, in the job that you didn't really want to be doing and you hadn't reached out to Yerasimos, right? And you were now five extra years into that, you would be in pretty deep functional freeze. [Speaker 3] Well, I would say I was in functional freeze at the time in some ways, you know. Even recalling my inner dialogue in some of those moments before, you know, moving to a more authentic path. It was like you're just going to put up with a life that doesn't feel fully aligned and there was an acceptance that came along with that. [Speaker 1] Yeah, so it's that. It's this resignation of there's nothing I can do, right? If you're in an inescapable attack, the thoughts are there's nothing I can do. I'm just, this is it, right? So if you're driving to your work or you're sitting at your cubicle or you're, you know, doing whatever, you're in your relationship and you're just like, this is just my lot in life. Like this is just what I have to do. That's functional freeze because you're having to numb out to not feel the misery of knowing that you're not really living your life, right? There are people I would say who work jobs and do their nine to five or aren't in the most passionate, loving, conscious relationship or whatever and they're just doing life. They may not be in functional freeze if they don't think that that should be different, right? But we get into this modern mindset of like, oh, but it's not my soul's purpose. And it's true, but it's like, how dedicated are you to that, to really making that happen? Or are you just thinking about it and like lamenting about it? So it's kind of also based on how you're oriented to your life. I don't think that the generations before us were necessarily like, oh, my soul's purpose and calling and meaning and this is what I have to do. So I'm just like stuck in this other thing. I think for a lot of people, it was just this is what you do. This is life and that's fine. That's great because it's also remember, it's like my generation and you're, well, Joel, you're so much younger, but it's like that generation of like no internet to internet, right? Like not connected to the entirety of the world and everything that's happening all over. As I've said before, it's like our systems were just not designed for that. We were designed for our tribe and like, am I safe or not? Now, I do think that we're very neuroplastic. We can develop, we can change, we can adapt to what's happening. And I think that's happening. And at the same time, these are like pretty drastically massive shifts. And how are we orienting to it? Like, are we just like, oh, I like my little space in the world and I'm doing what I need to do? Or is it like, oh, my gosh, and then there's this and then there's that and this is happening over there. And these people are hungry and these people are getting bombed and these people are blah, blah, blah. And what do I do? What do I need to do about all of this? So it's kind of like this odd kind of dance that's happening that I think that like our world, our perspective, our opportunities, our decisions have exponentially grown. And so I think it might be like previous generations didn't have that. They didn't have all of the options that were available. And so they didn't know those were options. And so you're not going to be crying about them. You're not going to be really upset about them. You're not going to be yearning for more when your world is this big. But now our world is this big. And so all of a sudden, there's all these options. There's all these opportunities. And so there's more of this questioning around like, what should I be doing? What could I be doing? What do I need to be doing versus just this is what it is? Does that make sense? [Speaker 2] Yeah, it does make sense. It's making me think of, and I don't know if this is the right phrase, but like paralysis by analysis, you know, like obviously like paralysis is a form of freeze. And so I was talking about this at dinner last night with my friend Bill, just like the idea we have so many choices now. And they've done studies. I remember reading some literature on this that like, or maybe I watched a video online where someone was handed a, like a dish with like two pieces of dessert. And I was like, OK, that one. And then they were like handed a dish with like 12 desserts. And they were like, I don't know what to do. And am I going to even take one of them? And it's just like this frozen state of I can't decide, you know, and I even think about, you know, years ago going to Greece, you know, I mean, maybe even now to some degree, but it's changed obviously with like globalization. But like a couple of decades ago, you go into a supermarket, there's like one or two toothpastes and like one or two deodorants. And now there's like thousands and thousands of products. You know, it's like this is very new from how we evolved as human beings. [Speaker 1] Well, and couple that with like, we now live in a more and more sort of like disconnection to nature. A lot of people I'll say in like more of the Western world of like a lot of our ancestors or whatever, we're still connected in with the world using their bodies in more variety ways, just more active in their lifestyles probably too versus now where it's like so much of our schooling, our education, our upbringing is like you're just inside, you're doing these things, you're told as I've said before, and other things like you're told when you can go to the bathroom, you're told when you're supposed to eat, you're told when you're supposed to go to bed, you're told like you're regimented in all these things that are training you out of listening to your own biology. And so that's already a form of this like don't listen to yourself, numb out from your own feelings and experiences. Like if you're hungry at like 2pm, it's like oh well you're in between lunch and dinner so you don't get to eat because you're in English class or whatever. And it's like those compound over and over and over and over again to numb out, don't feel this, don't feel this, don't feel this, don't be connected to the circadian rhythm, don't be connected to the seasons changing, don't like your lifestyle doesn't change through these things anymore so drastically as it used to. And so again this is just like a disconnection from your own feeling, from being in your own body, from experiencing these sensations or being with them. And then you compound that again with like screens and medications and all these things that again are putting caffeine, right? It's like again and again. [Speaker 3] Not everyone, Joel. Oh, sorry. Sorry for the absolutism. [Speaker 1] But it's all these layers, right? There's layer upon layer upon layer of like don't feel your own body, don't actually be here experiencing this and your system is getting that signal over and over again and then there's something that's overwhelming or there's something that's painful, there's something that's uncomfortable, your body's already primed to go like nope, we don't feel those things. [Speaker 3] Could even like this line of thoughts perceived in a certain way be like something that adds to the functional freeze? Like oh no, the modern world. So many choices, so many things. This is the era that I live in. There's nothing I can do about it. Can even that line of thought perceived in a certain way? [Speaker 1] That's an inescapable attack. I'm just in this world now. I'm just stuck here with all these choices, I guess. [Speaker 2] Yeah, but that's even just like the overload of information and it's like what part of you takes the information if you want to even bring in like the architecture of the psyche? Like, I mean, we talk about this even in the GNM world. Someone learns GNM and it's like, oh, I can't do this. I can't say this. I can't go there. And it's like that's not the purpose of learning this. But again, what aspect of you takes in the knowledge and what do you do with it? [Speaker 3] Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of where I want to go. You know, like what does it mean to, I guess, have a healthy nervous system in the modern world? [Speaker 1] Sure, Joel. How is that? [Speaker 3] Well, I mean, firstly, it's obviously an individual process. Like we all live unique lives. We don't all have the same opportunities available to us. Some of us live in high-rise buildings. Some of us live close to the land. Some of us are in transitional jobs. Some of us are entrepreneurs, you know. But it's like, how do you relate to yourself on a day-to-day basis based on obligations, the things that need to get done and being able to factor in nervous system care and self-awareness along the way? Like obviously bringing it back to the source of truth is that it's an individual process first and foremost, right? [Speaker 1] Yeah. And I would say a big piece of that. And here's where it's like the sort of like heart of it is like it's being attuned to and embodied within yourself. [Speaker 3] Yeah. [Speaker 1] And that happens moment by moment by moment by moment by moment. And the more you do that, the more comfortable. Because I also feel like a big piece of this is like we are much more adverse to discomfort. Like now, right? It's like other people have talked about this, but it's like you live in a, you know, we have a thermostat and we can like, oh, I'm a little cold. I'm going to make it warmer. I'm a little warm. I'm going to make it colder. Like all these little things where it's like, we just don't really want to be with discomfort. And so growing our capacity to be with discomfort is also part of gaining more of this ability to feel for yourself what's happening. So that when something does happen or when you're reading about, you know, these big, terrible, awful things or whatever is happening, it's like your system can feel that and then come back to itself. [Speaker 2] Yeah. Wasn't to say just like having greater somatic self-awareness, but like this is where education comes into it as well. Like we're not taught this. We're not taught this in school. We don't, we're not, we don't know about our physiology, like the states that you're talking about or even just the other things of how our biology functions. So it's like on some baseline. And again, maybe not for everyone, but on some baseline, just even knowing. So then you can go, okay, this is what's happening right now within me. Like having that awareness and being able to kind of like put your finger on what's going on and then accepting where you're at, you know, the practice of self-acceptance. And then, okay, what do I need to do from here? Maybe just accepting, like, this is where I'm at right now. I'm freaking starting a business. Like I have to work freaking, you know, 15 hours a day in front of a screen. Like, like, that's okay. Like, I'm aware that I'm a little jacked up. I've had four cups of coffee. Like, it's not going to be like this forever. Like, even that I think is some level of self-awareness to be like, it's fine. Sure, I can maybe do some things to kind of drop in. Maybe I need to go to the bathroom and sit there and just breathe for a little bit or just be with what I'm feeling. But like, you have to also accept that, like, there's no perfection when it comes to this, that you're a human being and you're moving through stuff. You just want to keep moving more towards greater self-awareness and self-understanding and doing the best you can, considering what's happening in your life. [Speaker 3] Yeah, like your life is a living process that isn't always going to be perfect, right? But again, this is interesting to me what you're raising because so much of what you raised has to do again with this inner dialogue and the states and the quality and the relationship with the inner voice, you know? So yes, we're talking about physiology here, but it seems to me that psychology still plays a decent role in how we relate to our physiology, obviously. [Speaker 2] There's not even really a separation. It's just, we talk about it in order to just delineate, but it's a holistic process. [Speaker 3] So, I mean, can someone be in a continuous state of dysregulation and have a healthy inner dialogue or vice versa? Can you be in a constant state of self-criticism and being in a state and having constant regulation? I don't actually think so. I think they go hand in hand. [Speaker 2] I don't think so. Because yeah, Sylvia, you share your thoughts and then I'll share mine. [Speaker 1] Yeah, no, I don't think so. It's all connected, as you were just saying. So there's something going on there. [Speaker 2] But even these concepts that I know, Joel, we've talked about before, like self-esteem and nervous system capacity or nervous system regulation, they're very related. Because within both of them, even just the definitions that we know about them, it's like responding appropriately to life situations. So if you're constantly in self-criticism and living in shame, are you really responding appropriately to life? To be 24-7 having a huge inner critic? Probably not. And if you think there's a threat everywhere, you're probably not responding appropriately based on to the degree that we can understand objective reality. That's probably not appropriate. Most people are not realistically under threat 24-7. Realistically. Now, obviously what's happened to them, what they're feeling, what they've been through, traumas that live within them, sure. [Speaker 3] You know what I mean? Well, even from the framework of the body being the unconscious and the body and the unconscious being the ground or the source from which that voice ultimately emanates, right? And not vice versa. [Speaker 1] Well, because the data or the research out the current research, and also just as a caveat on this, all of this is so new still. The arena of traumatology is like an infancy. So there's a lot being discovered. And on top of that, and I know you guys talked about this with Irene Lyon, it's become this buzzword and cool thing to be involved in this trauma somatics world. And so there's a lot of bad stuff out there. I'm just going to say it bluntly. So the research that we have right now is that 80% of information is afferent, meaning coming from the body into the brain. Only 20% is from the brain into the body, afferent. So it's like there's so much information coming from the body up here to be analyzed and not nearly as much coming down. And so that's another thing is like, we're in such like a mental forward, I don't know, way of being. And so we're losing this connection, because I'm saying that all of this other information. [Speaker 3] Yeah, but like you're saying, with the understanding that the mental is informed by the physical, it doesn't make sense to kind of just like, oh, I'm mental, so to speak, none of this is disconnected. None of these things are really compartmentalized in any real sense. And even like I think about like intuition, like how can you really have a decent grasp on your personal intuition if you're disconnected from your body? Like if you're in a state of functional freeze and this is your general baseline, are you listening to your intuition, right? And it's a chicken and egg situation because the voice of the intuition is gonna become more potent and stronger if you move into a regulated state by honoring it. [Speaker 1] Yeah, well, and I talk about this all the time, right? So even in my teachings, it's like, this is a relationship that we're developing more strongly because so much is probably being part of your life of like, don't listen to this or override whatever's happening. And so the more that we can build that relationship, the more in tune we are to it, the more even apt that we'll hear what's happening or feel what's happening. And so that even is that coming out of this functional freeze, like thawing the freeze in certain ways is like just tapping in over and over and over again, even if it's for a second at a time, because it's building that relational dynamic, right? Like if you're in a new relationship with someone and you're like, okay, I'm gonna send you flowers and wine and dine you one day a month, that relationship isn't really gonna go anywhere. It's gonna be like, okay, there's one day. [Speaker 3] There might be a lot to some people. There might be a lot to some people, I mean. [Speaker 2] That's beyond people's capacity, a lot of people's capacity, okay? Are you calling me out right now, Sophie? [Speaker 1] But I mean, it's different than like, oh, I'm gonna text every day or call every day or we're gonna have like a check-in every day, right? It's gonna be a different flavor of relationship. [Speaker 3] Yeah. [Speaker 1] There's gonna be more relating within it. The more you check in with yourself, the more you drop in, the more you feel into your own physiology, the more it's going to be interested in building that relationship, right? You're building this sort of like trust with yourself over time. And so that has a much bigger bang than say, you know, like a process of like, oh, I'm gonna feel into myself for an hour straight once a month. Your system's gonna be like, all right, what about the other 29 days of the month or whatever when I'm also have shit going on wanna get your attention. So it's really still coming back to this like growing capacity to be with what is. And that's pleasure too, right? So many of us have this radar, right? Our neural section, which is always sort of scanning for this safety, not safety. And it's like, it's this radar that's sort of oriented to, am I safe? Am I not safe? And it's probably going off a lot. If you're like, you know, if you're on this awakening journey or awareness journey or whatever it is, it's sort of like, oh, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this. And we need these times to also feel into what's right or what's good or what's possible or the gratitude, the beauty of where we are, what's happening in life. And I think there's also this thing and we get way too sort of like narrow focused and on the negative, on what's wrong, because we're trying to fix it. We're trying to have control over everything versus like, yeah, okay. Whatever's happening, whatever's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah, that's happening. And at the same time, like, oh, look at this flower that just bloomed or the sunlight coming in the window and it's hitting this pillow that I really like and those colors are delightful. Or, oh, this drink tastes really good, right? All these little things that we can drop into of these positive things, even as you guys joking in that relationship, like doing the flowers for the wining and dining for one day straight. Yeah, that's probably way too much for somebody's capacity if they've been starved for the rest of the month or for a month straight. And then all of a sudden that comes in and it's like, I don't even know how to be with that. I can't take it in. Now it's a threat. What do I do? [Speaker 2] Yeah, would you say, yeah, would you say like, and I don't want to be absolute here, but like generally speaking, people that tend to lean towards the black pill, I know we're talking about this, but I want to use that term, that they're probably more dysregulated than those that aren't, that don't just focus on those things. Now that doesn't mean that these people can't, you know, enjoy a flower occasionally. It's like a continuum or like a pie chart, like, okay, 70%, these parts of me. I mean, again, it's like, you can't separate. It's like there's parts and then there's nervous system states from these parts as well. And so like these parts are kind of like driving the car 70, 80% of the time. But yeah, there are those moments where I can be in ventral vagal and connect with a child and a baby or like the flowers or the outside world. You know, so it's really just a matter of like being that the conductor and understanding your inner life and making sure that you're just not, you know, primarily in this state where you think you're under threat all the time because you're exposing yourself to all these reels. And then you're sending them to your friends and like, you understand this is happening. Oh shit, they're doing this. This is what's going to happen in two months. And it's like, that's what you're flooding your consciousness with as opposed to, you know, what would happen if you were 5% less of that or 5% more of something else? [Speaker 1] Yeah. Well, and there's also this piece of this. So like my talk, right? It was, I said it wrong, right? On the stage the first time, but from freeze to freedom and going into that healthy aggression, right? Because a lot of this, that functional freeze stuck feeling is like, there's nothing I can do. And all this sympathetic energy is churning under there, right? That's that gas pedal, but the brake pedal is on of like, uh-uh, no, no, no, no, no. And so if you're just sitting there on your phone, like sending these reels or researching whatever's happening or your computer or whatever, and you're not doing anything, if you're not moving the energy through your system, that's when you get into like that deep, deep, deep suppression and repression. And as I said, what's going to happen is either, then you're going to be in like really chronic depression, really just like down and out, or you're going to be that like hothead that's like flying off the handle at every moment at inappropriate times, right? Because all this energy is there and it hasn't moved. And so then it's like, someone looks at you wrong or a tiny little thing happens and it's like everything has to come out. And so that's where it's like these disconnections from what's actually going on. So if you get really upset about something, right? That you've read on the news or something that's happening or just in your everyday life, and you can actually move that energy through your system in a healthy and safe and connected way, that's going to be huge in terms of not having those other things happen of this like extreme repression and explosion and hotheadedness. It's like, if you can be with what's happening and like, oh my God, yeah, I'm really, really angry about that thing. I'm going to feel into like what the natural impulses are that are coming up within my system. I'm going to go squeeze this towel, wring out this thing. I'm going to growl. I'm going to bite. I'm going to claw. I'm going to like do these things in a safe arena, right? Like I would never advocate for somebody going up and like growling in somebody's face that just- I'm going to claw you next time. [Speaker 2] I'm going to just claw you. I'm going to grow out my fingernails and just claw you next time. [Speaker 1] What I say is like, when we call it healthy aggression, right? It's healthy and safe aggression where it's like, where can you do these in safe and healthy ways where you're still moving this energy through your system so that you're not just suppressing it. You're not just sitting there and like turning it over and over and over again. And, oh no, and this is happening and that's happening. What am I going to do about that? And not actually being in any movement or action. [Speaker 2] I mean, obviously we have so many experiences of that personally. And I know I tend to lean towards a little bit more sympathetic, would you say? And so, yeah, I mean, these tools that I've learned and that you've reminded me of have been extremely helpful because like hotheads are literally people who they don't have the awareness when all this stuff is happening. And then they just like explode, you know? It's like repression, repression, repression and then explosion. And so it's almost like letting out of air out of a balloon a little bit in these little moments where it's like, all right, you say something that pisses me off. Obviously it's not appropriate for me to just punch you in the face, even though there might be a part of me that's like, fuck you. And it might not even be appropriate for me to disrespect you and say those things. And yet I'm having this experience for whatever reason, we could talk about, well, my mom said this at one time when I was a kid and I have this pattern. Regardless, who cares about the story? It's the awareness of the sensation and the reality of what's happening. So, you know, I definitely have leaned on the exercise of just like squeezing my forearms and just like letting out like a subtle little growl or something. And then like going from a 10 to a six and then tuning into what's happening in my body and then doing it again. And then I'm like, all right, cool. And then I can continue on and then have a healthy relationship because I've worked through it on my own, you know? Or let's say my mother, I'm at the dinner table, you know, and then my mom says something that annoys me because she's my 82-year-old Greek mom. And so she's going to say things that annoys me sometimes. But like, or let's say I'm stressed out. I've been working all day and I'm extra, like I'm extra, you know? [Speaker 3] Like, and like- You're extra every day, bro. [Speaker 2] Yeah. And so I'm like a little like sensitive and more like can get triggered more easily. Like, again, I don't want to just go off, you know? The reality is sometimes I'm going to, you know, it's not about perfection, but the more that you can do this, like I feel better. And then you build that muscle, you build that capacity. And then it's just, sometimes it starts just happening. I don't know, automatically in ways. [Speaker 3] I think about like that classic Ram Dass quote, you know, if you think you're enlightened, spend the week with your family, but really you think you're regulated, spend the week with your family. Should be the right. [Speaker 2] Yeah, it's true. Yeah, go home for Thanksgiving or whatever, you know, it's like- [Speaker 3] Even just think about like all the like political discussions and differences that might happen at a table or at a gathering or even like going to a gathering and thinking, oh, I hope that this conversation doesn't come up or this conversation doesn't come up because one can't trust myself to actually, you know, be with that conversation in a healthy way without it leading to something. [Speaker 2] Be with that or even having discernment or feeling something and then going, well, now it's not the right time to even communicate this, you know? It's just like this automatic behavior that's happening. You're with a group of people. Like, how do you react? How do you respond? When do you engage? When do you disengage? Like all this stuff is highlighting back to this idea of like what is the state of your nervous system? [Speaker 1] Yeah, well, and like this discernment, right? Around like, okay, I'm feeling this activation within my system. I kind of really want to like destroy something or I'm having this like anger come up. Can I just go to the bathroom? Like, I know I can't do it in, you know, this dinner setting or whatever that we're in, but it's like, can I remove myself enough to go to the bathroom? Maybe flush the toilet and growl at the same time. Can I like push against the, you know, the stall wall or whatever? Like you can do these things, as I'm saying, in these safe and healthy ways where you're still moving the energy through your system. Because if you keep doing that over and over again and like, oh, well, it's just not the appropriate, you know, arena for me to like do what I really want to do. Well, you're going to need to do it at some point. [Speaker 3] Yeah. And I think, let me ask you a question. Does this shift from individual to individual? Now, for example, like let's talk about levels of consciousness, for example, right? Like can someone potentially have more tolerance where like they don't need to actively move it through their system as often as someone else might need to in a real visceral way where it's just like, okay, like, yeah, that's not, it's not impacting me, you know, that's, you know, and like, if you know what I'm getting at. [Speaker 1] Yes. And that's, I would say capacity. [Speaker 3] Yeah. Not bypassing in the sense of I'm spiritually above this, I'm ascended, whatever it might be. Yeah. [Speaker 1] Right. I mean, yeah. If you're spiritually bypassing or if you're, you know, doing that, then it's going to have to come out in some way at some point. And that's going to be like the big explosions on like a random thing. But if you're really just sort of like there, I would say that's where it's like, that's where the capacity work comes into play of like, you've grown your capacity to be with discomfort or be with pleasure or be with like whatever is happening. You have a wider, what's known as window of tolerance where you can still be with yourself, still feel what's happening and it's fine. Like it's still within your window of being able to be connected to yourself and function rather than when your capacity, for anyone who's listening, I'm moving my hands, but it's like, if your capacity is really, really little, anything outside of that is going to be overwhelming to your system, right? But when you widen that capacity, when my hands get farther apart, when your window of tolerance is larger, you can be with more stuff and it doesn't affect you in big ways, right? And so it's kind of like, oh, like, yeah, okay. My mom said that, or this happened or whatever is going on. And it's just kind of like, okay, that happens. And it's not a stimulus because it doesn't register as a threat. What's outside of your window of tolerance, what's outside of your capacity is registered as a threat. [Speaker 3] Yeah. And it's like, you go. I was going to say just to the analogy, like to me, this is what it means like to cultivate the force, you know, like to be Jedi-like, like ultimately like building this capacity where it's like these things, these triggers, these little things, it's like, oh, okay. [Speaker 2] And everything we're talking about, I think supports building that. Like, I don't think you should, like for the next 30 years be like, I have a tan towel with me all the time and I'm always using it. Like 20 years in and it's, this is my best friend. I have a name for it. No, but like you're learning like, oh, wow, I can actually have awareness in the moment of what's happening and I can do something, you know, like for instance, I've shared this story. I used to have crazy road rage, you know, crazy, not to the degree that I go and pull out a gun and shoot someone, but just like that, like the triggering of safety or whatever the case may be or injustice or someone looking at me like I was at fault when they were the one that did it. And it's like, I literally wanted to kill these people. [Speaker 3] Yeah. [Speaker 2] Now, you know, you do some years of work and work on your body or nervous system or whatever. Like now, like something intense could happen on the road and like, I might have a moment like, and then I'm like, I'm good. I'm safe. I'm alive. Like, I'm fine. I'm going to keep going on my way. [Speaker 1] Yeah. I think I brought this up before, but there's this study that they did of, I can't remember the title of the study. So I hate when I just say like, oh, there's a study. [Speaker 3] Oh my God, she's making up. She's making up statistics and false studies again. You read it somewhere. [Speaker 1] In the years of my studying, I read this thing. It's a legit study. But anyway, there was a study where they took like monks who had been, you know, meditating, master meditators for decades. And their assumption was like, oh, they're just going to be like this calm, cool, collected, steady line the whole time of this experiment. And then they took like everyday lay people and they hooked them up to, you know, electrodes and monitoring their systems and all of that. And then they had them in a room individually, one at a time. And they would slam a door. And so again, their assumption was that monks would have like no reaction at all. But what actually showed was that the monks actually had huge response within their system. But then immediately when they were able to orient to what had happened, once they were immediately like, oh, I'm safe, their system like pretty quickly came back to like this calm, cool, collected state. So it's not, again, this staying calm, cool and collected. They responded to, there's a loud, all of a sudden, bang, that's a threat, right? They're going to have a big reaction. But then they come back as soon as they're like, oh, I'm not under threat. I'm actually fine. Whereas the normal sort of lay people, they would have like a less response, actually, like a smaller spike within their system of activation. But then they would stay there. Even once they oriented to and recognized that they were safe, because that's, again, this like their system has this underlying, if you want to call it dysregulation, adaptation within their system where they don't come back to that normal sort of state because their system is like stuck. And so that's the issue when you get like stuck in these things. And it's just because the system has adapted to threat, right? So it's just sort of stuck there now. And so that's where it's like, okay, can you move that through? What do you need to do? Was there activity? And you need to go shake for a little bit, or you need to like, really like look at the door and feel it and like know that it's closed and safe, right? So that's where it's like, maybe you do need to do that for a little while. Maybe it's months, maybe it's years, maybe it's whatever, where you're like continually signaling to your system like, oh, how do I show you that you're safe? How do I show myself that I'm safe? How do I move the sympathetic charge through my system in a more active way? Because it's there and I need to continually let myself move it through as well as show myself that it's safe for me to be there and then come back, right? So it's kind of this like, it's not about the response. They had an appropriate response, but it's like, how do you stay there if you're not actually in this attack anymore or under threat? And so that's where that inescapable attack comes in because your system is constantly signaling threat, threat, threat, threat, threat and that's then I'm going to numb out so that I don't continually feel that, but the system is still doing that and that's functional phrase. [Speaker 2] Yeah. Well, even thinking about it in social media, like all these arguments that are happening online with strangers, you know, like someone says something that like, I don't know, it goes against what you believe. And like the people like just spend hours arguing with one another. Like to me, like that can't be like appropriate behavior, appropriate responses, you know, especially when you start like going off on people, you know, in my opinion, like because I'm thinking about to where I was, you know, feeling this need to like, like you are, you are challenging the core of who I am, this need to go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then now it's like I can read something and still have an experience, but then, you know, realize like, OK, like I'm going to go about my day. Like this doesn't matter. I don't know. That's just my, that's my thought. [Speaker 3] Your response used to get really triggered in Reddit forums that advocated that pineapple on pizza was no good. [Speaker 2] In rabbit forums? [Speaker 3] Reddit forums. It's been hours just arguing about pineapple on pizza, but, you know, he's got into a healthy state now. [Speaker 2] Yeah, now I just take off the pineapple and I'm good, you know? [Speaker 1] So like, so for an example, right? So we've already said like, you know, Asimov tends more towards the sympathetic, right? That's even, you know, I'd say sort of like culturally and stuff, right? Greeks are a little bit more passionate. They're a little bit more intense. And that's acceptable within that culture. For me, like I have, I tend towards that high tone dorsal, that more shut down. I come from a British lineage where it's like, keep calm and carry on. Like that's like the headline of Functional Freeze, I feel like. Like that should be its lingo. It's like, right? That was like started in World War I or II too, where it's like bombs are going off. And the phrase is like, keep calm and carry it on. Like that's the mindset of my lineage coming through. On top of like my own responses from my upbringing or whatever was just shut down, like just numb out, just don't feel right. So for me, it's the opposite. I'm trying to like, for Yerasov must be more sympathetic. It's like, OK, how can I move this energy through when it's there in a healthy and safe way? For me, it's like, how do I even feel a little bit of that sympathetic charge and establish safety in that it's OK for me to feel that or express that at all, right? Like me, when, you know, a couple or 15 years ago, a couple of decades ago, any conflict, I was a puddle. Like I literally just couldn't handle it. So I was either completely numbed out, didn't, just gone, just dissociated. I don't remember anything that happened or crying immediately because I just couldn't feel the like, the rev up within my own system. I had no fight or flight. It had been kind of like suppressed so much. And a lot of that is from my like spiritual upbringing, right? It's that spiritual bypass, like everything's fine. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. It's like, it's not freaking fine inside. But it's like this. So then for me, it's like I had to start learning that it's OK to express fight or flight. It's OK to use my voice. It's OK, right? It's not OK for me to punch someone, but it's OK for me to feel this. And then how do I express that in a healthy and safe way, right? I remember, you know, that's when I was like one of our first like fights. It's like you were so excited because at some point you were talking over me and I like yelled like, I'm still fucking talking or something. I don't remember the exact words, but like you got so excited because you know that that's like such an edge for me. [Speaker 3] I've heard this story a lot and I want to get into the details of this story for real, actually. You heard this and like what? [Speaker 2] You were like. This is what happened, OK? We were in bed. We were in Santa Monica. We were having an argument and then you said something to me and I was like, fuck you or something. I forget what I said. And then you went, no, fuck you. You know, she had never done that. Normally she kind of like comes by and I literally went like this. Like I literally raised my hands up. Yeah, shaking them like excited that she did it, you know, because again, like in that moment, of course, like the patterns was like, you know, you're you're pulling away. You're shutting down like I'm I'm I'm. You know, expressing I'm I'm I'm OK with conflict, you know, where she wasn't. And so like the process of her being able to start, being able to set a boundary to communicate things like in partnership, like, you know, I I mean, I wasn't I was literally was like almost immediate that I just kind of like was like taking it back and like like had a smile on my face. And then literally went straight to like, fuck, yeah, because it's like on some level, on some level, like meet me, like meet me like like it's. It's like the polarization that happens in like dynamics, you know, one person holds one part, other person polarizes to the other and vice versa. And so that was kind of our dynamic. Gotcha. But you share your your any thoughts you have on that? [Speaker 1] Yeah. And there's this like, right. So for me, learning that safety, that's been huge in our relationship because he's so comfortable with it. And so it's created a safe place for me to express more or to feel that more without negative repercussions, right? Like him getting excited about that shows my system like, oh, it's OK for me to do that. But it's also just me being with myself of like, oh, I'm like maybe not in the moment, but later like growling or doing what I need to do. And that shows my system like, oh, it's OK. I can survive this. I'm not going to die from feeling this energy move through my system and expressing it. [Speaker 2] Yeah, because like like the way I am and I don't know if it's a little bit more secure attachment, whatever lingo you want to use, like I'm cool with like getting fired up, having an argument, dealing with it. And then it's like I'm pretty cool afterwards. I mean, I have my moments where I might loop about certain things, but I'm like, all right, cool. We had our thing. Let's go. Whereas Sophie was a little different. Also, I'm single definition and humanized. She's she's split definition. So it might take her a little longer to process things, even though we're both emotional authorities. And so I don't know. I think that that was something that was really cool to witness over time. Like I enjoyed I enjoyed the meeting of the energy whenever we would have conflict. And like we're fortunate. We don't really have conflict very often. But those moments where it's like, you know, I could be a little dick sometimes, you know, and say certain things and be like condescending and dismissive. And and, you know, and then her kind of like standing up for herself in those moments. Like that's growth, especially in like a primary partnership, you know, or things are really deep. So, yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, and there's and there's times where, like I said earlier, I'm there are times where like a part of me wants to take over. That's not as conscious. And I'm like, no, I'm not like I feel it, but I'm not going to say these words that this part of me wants to say. I need to be mature. I need to have discernment. I need to go step away and handle handle things on my own and do what I have to do. [Speaker 1] Well, I was just going to say, because there's also that's where the appropriate response comes. [Speaker 3] Well, this is what I want to get to, because we keep hearing this phrase appropriate response. OK, and like, where do we look to for the baseline of an appropriate response to measure against? Like you mentioned nature before squirrels, deers, et cetera. But it's like we're not necessarily animals and squirrels and deers. We have sure there might be some physiological responses that are shared, et cetera. But like when someone listening is hearing the appropriate response, who is the avatar of the appropriate response that we should be measuring ourselves again? [Speaker 2] I mean, it's it's it's it's hard to say exactly, but I would say the appropriate response, depending if you had 100 people watching, like to choke someone out, shoot someone, punch them in the face, more often than not, probably isn't the appropriate response. Now, if your life is threatened and you're being challenged, then that's different. But like if you're just like if someone's disagreeing with you, you know, like it's probably not appropriate to do any one of those things, you know, and but and like some people, if they're being disagreed with, they might engage. [Speaker 3] Some people might shut down, withdraw, walk away, find a new friendship circle like how does individuality at the same time like fit? Like we were talking about appropriate response as though it's this with this done thing that we should all be striving for. But I'm like, it's a process. Also, what is the more appropriate response dependent on the individual? [Speaker 1] You know, it's also what is going to keep you safe in that moment. [Speaker 3] So does appropriateness vary depending on the person? [Speaker 1] Yeah, yeah. But then it's more subjective in terms of like what is like, like why you have these levels of response, right? Within the system, like sympathetic, freeze, dorsal shutdown is because it varies depending on the degree of threat. That is detected, right? So for, I think you're fine with me sharing this, but like when you were attacked in New York, it would have been in a, he was, you know, I was assaulted, robbed and getting mugged in a stairwell by three people in Harlem, New York, like in 2000. Right, and from behind. So he fell forward into the stairs and these three guys are behind him doing what they're doing. It would be an inappropriate response for him to try to get up and punch everybody and fight his way out based on like, I'm one person, I don't have, you know, extensive martial arts training. I, you know, like his system is assessing this in the moment of like, what is my best response to this experience to survive? Right, so he probably, you know, this must correct me, but like probably went into some form of freeze. And like dissociation of like, I'm just getting through this. Right now, if Yerasimo had, you know, 20 years of martial arts experience under his belt, or he knew certain techniques or new things like that would be a different, he might have a different response available. Right, where he's like, oh, I can actually take three guys who have attacked me from behind. [Speaker 2] Yeah, like if I was Jason Bourne, if I was Jason Bourne, it'd be different. You know, I'm working towards that. It might take some time, but like also in a stairwell, in a stairwell where I could have been thrown over a stairwell and I could have ended up dead if I all of a sudden was like, you know what? I'm going to fight these dudes. You know? [Speaker 1] That's what I mean. So that's the appropriate response. Like his system did the appropriate response, right, because he survived what was happening. It because his, he assessed it in the actual moment of like what, what is available to me right now. Now, when we talk about trauma, right, it's that there's other impulses that might have also been there that were 100% also there. Like there was part of him that also wanted to get up and fight these guys, but it was overridden by you can't do that. You will not survive. Like that is not the response to do to survive this situation. So then part of trauma work or somatic work moving through those things is to sort of play out those other impulses within the system. So they're not, when we say like stuck, right, when trauma stuck in the body, it's these impulses. It's the survival stress. It's these things that didn't get to play out and move through the system. So when we say appropriate response, the appropriate response may be like non-action and it may be fighting. So like an inappropriate response, I know I've used this in previous podcasts, but like if you're in a park and a tiger shows up, an inappropriate response is to go like, I'm just going to be here and connect with the tiger. [Speaker 2] I'm going to go pet it. [Speaker 1] No. [Speaker 2] Unless you're a tiger whisperer. [Speaker 3] Right. [Speaker 1] OK, so this is again coming into like you're assessing really quickly, right? Those videos that I'm sure people have seen, I've seen where it's like, you know, somebody raised a lion from a cub and then doesn't see them for many, many years and then sees them again and the lion like, you know, tackles them. But in like a love, like I'm, oh my God, you're my dad, you know, moment. It's like that's an appropriate response for that guy to just stand there. It's an appropriate response because he knows this lion knows him and is going to have this like loving response to him versus me, who's never interacted with a tiger before. It would be weird if I was like, this tiger is just going to come up and hug me. Yeah, I'm going to be fine or I'm going to go up and try to hug this tiger. Like, no, that's an inappropriate response if I don't have this kind of history stuff, right? So the appropriate response is your system assessing what is the best and safest way for me to survive and move through this experience. So it's also like, you know, if a fly is in the room with me and it lands on my arm and I freak out, right, that's an inappropriate response. This fly is not a threat to me. It's just like, oh, please move on. You're just going to do a little movement or flick to be like, OK, fly, continue on. Versus if a fly lands on you and you're like, oh my God, I'm going to die. Everything's wrong. [Speaker 2] Yeah. The challenge is that a lot of people think that the responses are appropriate. And so it's like, you know, how do you judge it? I like watching these, you know, different Instagram pages. You know, Maj Touré will sometimes comment on videos or these other people that are into training situational awareness and like you see instances of road rage or like someone like is mouthing off. They have no idea who the person they're mouthing off to. They're continuing to escalate the situation. And then they get shot and killed. And like for me, I'm like, well, if you end up dead, it's probably not an appropriate response, in my opinion. [Speaker 1] Well, and it's also right because it's like if I'm saying I'm sort of asserting that a lot of people in society are more in this functional freeze state. Right. And so they're more in this state of either they're going to shut down really strongly when activation happens or they're going to become a hothead. And that's an inappropriate response. They're like having huge, massive responses to things. So it's also assessing that like the people around you might be in one of these other states too. So again, assessing like what is my best response here? Right. And so even in these, like when I'm really upset, I think it's appropriate. I think it's correct. I think that like my, if I'm going to lash out or, you know, get really upset when you get asthma, I think it's appropriate. But if I take a moment, I've been, now I've been overtaken by that. And so that capacity or regulation or self-awareness is enough for me to go like, all right, I'm aware that I think that I am in, you know, the right here, that I am appropriately responding. But I'm also sort of self-aware enough to go like, I am emotionally defined in human design. I'm really stressed. There's also happening. Maybe I don't react right now to him, right? Maybe this is when I remove myself and I go do what I need to do, growl, kick, scream, do whatever it is before I come back. Like maybe I need to go move this energy through my system. [Speaker 3] And then you're asking like, is there a tiger in the house? Which one is wool scratching and growling happening? [Speaker 2] It's much more subtle, much more subtle. [Speaker 1] That self-awareness, the appropriate response in that moment is not to blow up my marriage. It's to take care of myself. And do what I need to do that doesn't involve the other person. [Speaker 2] It's not super black and white. Obviously, it's a process. It's understanding. A lot of the times you find out after the fact, when you reflect and you sit with something, you're like, okay, that's probably not the proper response. [Speaker 3] That's what I mean. It feels like anyone can justify an appropriate response at any given time. But I feel like individual discernment after the fact, you're going to have the knowledge of, maybe I didn't respond the best way. [Speaker 2] Exactly. And that's up to the individual and their level of self-awareness and self-responsibility and self-knowledge and going. And there's gradations. We say fight or flight, but it isn't like anyone who fights, everyone's doing this. Anyone who flights, everyone's doing that. There's levels to it. Even just the ability to step in and set a boundary is kind of like a form of fight. But you don't have to shoot the person, punch the person, or say the most horrific things to the person. But you're not fleeing. You know what I mean? So it's like, where is that? How do you relate to these different states and then these different parts of you that are obviously within these states? And then how do you communicate? And how do you say the things that you say in ways that later on, you're like, you know what? I fucking, I kind of handled that well. Or you know what? That's what I did. It wasn't ideal, but that's what I did. And you accept that. And then you just move on and you learn from it. It's not about, let me beat myself up. Let me shame myself because I didn't respond a certain way. It's all fucking data. It's just data for any individual that's wanting to continue to evolve, continue to grow, continue to move through the world with more consciousness to go, okay, that situation probably could have been handled differently. But I understand why I'm, these are the things that happened to me in my past. These are my patterns, whatever the case may be, you know? But it's up to the individual. [Speaker 1] And that's where it's like repair, self-growth, self-awareness. Because again, you could use that to get stuck in freeze again, right? Of like, oh my God, I'm a terrible person. I did this wrong. I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have done that. Oh my God, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now I'm like down a rabbit hole versus like, hey babe, I'm really sorry I said that. That was, I shouldn't have said that or I shouldn't have reacted in that way. Here's things that I could do next time that could maybe have a different outcome. Here's like what I'm reflecting on when that came from, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. [Speaker 3] This is coming to me now, but it's almost like the appropriate response is what gets me on the other side of the situation with either an enhanced level of self-respect or my self-respect intact. [Speaker 2] I mean, I think there's some truth to that. I'd have to like think of all the situations. Self-esteem. [Speaker 3] Well, you could say self-esteem for sure. But I mean, I think self-respect is pretty easier for most people to grasp as self-esteem is like, can be broadly defined and is, you know, there's multiple pillars that, but ultimately what I'm saying is what gets me on the other side with me feeling as though I can bounce back, I'm steady, I'm stable. I like the way I handled things and that allows me to move on quicker than if I'm beating myself up over reacting in a way that I, in retrospect, know wasn't correct or could have been handled more consciously. [Speaker 2] Yeah, I'm open to that. We have to keep continuing having the conversation because there's so many different situations. [Speaker 3] Send it to Peter Levine, send it to Irene Lyon, credit me, put it in all the books, all right? [Speaker 2] Yeah, because there's so many different situations we'd have to think about, you know? [Speaker 3] Yeah, I get you. I want to kind of shift the conversation a little bit towards maybe like family situations and family circumstances. I read this quote the other day by Brad Stolberg and he said, so many influencers, optimizers and wellness gurus don't have partners, kids or really any obligations outside of themselves. They sell optimization, purity and perfectionism but anyone who is actually in the arena knows true greatness is a distinctly human and therefore messy endeavor. Yes, strive to be healthy, focused and goal-oriented but also realize that sometimes the key to adult life is that you've just got to order a pizza and move on. And this kind of got me thinking, like even like for example yesterday, like we had a dinner plan, we're going to make chicken burgers, it was all prepped, everything was planned. Then the capacity just wasn't there for Alyssa, where I was and I was like, let's just order something, park it and shift it to tomorrow, you know? And even how this conversation started around truth seekers and health optimists and the perfectionism and needing to always eat the right things and do the right things but like with the self-awareness that I don't necessarily have the capacity all the time to do these things perfectly, like are we able to do the sometimes the messier thing or the less healthy thing to kind of get us through? If the kids had a wild day, there's a lot of hyped up energy, active energy in the house, like everyone, you know, it's like how do we adjust on a day-to-day basis to like keep our systems, I guess, as online as possible? [Speaker 1] Well, and I think that's where it's like the capacity, the self-awareness and the flexibility within yourself, right? Like if you're in functional freeze or if you're in a chronically frozen state, it's like there's very little flexibility within the system to be able to like do anything else because it's already on edge, it's already so kind of scared, it's already kind of numbed out. And so that flexibility comes in with more regulation of like, and that like you were aware of that, right? You could feel like the capacity is not here, we kind of can't really do that right now, it's too much happening. So we're going to shift, we're going to do something else like- Yeah, and being okay with it. [Speaker 3] Because you know what I've found as well is that my house seems to have like a collective nervous system pulse or a collective nervous system states, where I know if one person has to, yeah, if one person has to commit to something which isn't ideal right now, it's going to overload the entire system of the house, right? So being able to make decisions based on the awareness of how the day has evolved and how it's gone, like there's a collective nervous system pulse within the house and the family. [Speaker 2] But within that is just having awareness and like being not just self-absorbed and self-obsessed and understanding that like, I'm a father, I'm a husband, I have a house. There are things at play here, you're not just living on an island by yourself. You have to have even the capacity to even be aware of that, which a lot of people aren't. [Speaker 1] But that's the, even when you brought up that Ram Dass quote, I'd say that's the thing. It's like, sure, any of us could be calm, cool and collected all the time or like meditating in a cave for years with somebody just like bringing us food and water or whatever. But it's like, no, we're in the arena, we're in life. We're having to interact with other people. We're having a deal with life happening, right? Like one of the things I usually say to people is like, people are going to people, life is going to life. Like why we want to do this kind of work, why you want to grow your capacity at all or be with yourself more or feel more or whatever is so that you can experience more of this. You can be more flexible with it. You can have experiences and continue on with life and you can try different things and you can, and it doesn't like destroy you. [Speaker 2] And yes, and like, think about this, like you can be in a friend group or you can go visit family. Like I'm a pretty opinionated person. I have really strong convictions, but like if I'm going somewhere for a certain period of time, like I'm aware of the environment I'm going in. Like I don't need to be triggered all the time. I don't need to beat people over the head with knowledge and share my views. Or if I'm out and people are saying things like I choose my battles. Like even having the capacity to choose your battles reflects in my opinion, a healthy nervous system. Because if you understand other people, if you understand the dynamic you're going into and you're like, yeah, me saying this isn't like, what's the point just for me to hear my own voice, just for me to like let people know that I know something or like, hey, like I want to go have a nice dinner with people I see a couple of times a year and enjoy the dinner and like, keep it at that. Like, and like, that's how I operate. I'm not the same person 24 seven in every environment that I'm in because I have a radar. I'm tuning in to different people, different environments, different personalities and going, well, what's the outcome that I want? You know, what do I want from this? [Speaker 3] Again, like you just, it's an entire ecosystem. It's all collected, connected. We're getting into a lot of this stuff in Rise Above the Herd between nervous system and parts work. But like even the relationship between nervous system and one's capacity to be aware of parts and what parts are coming in and when they need to come in. [Speaker 2] Of course, because it's all, it's related. [Speaker 3] It's intertwined. [Speaker 2] Yeah, it is intertwined. Like, cause we're trying to think like, oh, the mind is a separate thing and there are these little parts and people in there but then there's not a body. Like it's all related, you know? And like, also it's like, I think what you were bringing up earlier in terms of like, what's appropriate. It's like, how do you feel after it? Like if all of a sudden you and Alyssa were like beating yourselves up. Oh my God, we just had pizza. We had the chicken burgers and like the chicken burgers are healthier. And it was like this thing, like what the hell? Just have the pizza. Tomorrow's a new day and let's go. Let's just continue living, you know? But a lot of people, it's like they respond in a certain way. And then based on that response, there's just like constant like self-beration. Is that a word? Or self-berating? Like, and is that healthy? [Speaker 3] You know, is that? There's almost like a mirror between this idea of like being in like a ventral vagal and being to be easily fluid between the different nervous system states and being able to be easily fluid between different appropriate parts at different points in time. Like there's like a copy paste effect between parts and nervous system states in some sense. [Speaker 2] Because it's not separate. We're just talking about the nervous system. But obviously if you're dysregulated or like not dysregulated, obviously if you're in a fight state or you're in a freeze state or you're in a flight state, there are certain parts that are present in those states. Like if I go into a fight mode, like the killer part of me might take over. This part of me that's like, I'm just, everything's closed out. I'm going to end this person's life before they end my life, you know? And that part of me has a certain kind of baseline state. And like, we talk about these labels, but it might look and feel different for every person based on the country they were born in, the time period they were born in, the culture they were born in. So like my quote unquote that I label like the killer part of me is probably going to be different than Sophie's killer to some degree, potentially, you know? If she even has a connection to it or whatever, or maybe even like a trauma response around it. Like anyways, I think you get what I'm trying to say. Do you understand what I'm saying, Sophie? [Speaker 1] I do. I want to bring back though, when you said like, I'm a different person depending on like the arena or like who you're around and stuff. Because yes and no, in terms of like, you're still you. So when we're talking about this, like I think there's like a through thread of like self. And then it's just like, how am I choosing to interact like sort of like that, like dial up, dial down certain aspects. But it's like, you're not different. You're not responding differently in terms of like your essence and who you are. Whereas I do think that there are people who are more like, I'm just going to be like a different person completely, right? [Speaker 2] Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think it's a little semantics, but I definitely get what you're saying. You brought more specificity to it, which I agree with. [Speaker 3] Thank you for correcting him, Sophie. I was about to try to myself. You know, I think about, you know, even like, this just came to me. I might've heard this before, but like Winnie the Pooh characters, you know, are a good example. Like Eeyore is like constantly kind of depressed, you know, in a kind of free state. Like Tigger is like constantly like in sympathetic, activated, you know, and like, but they're stuck there and they're differentiated. But it's like, we can be the whole collection. [Speaker 2] Just look at the movie Inside Out, you know? [Speaker 1] I was going to say, I mean, Winnie the Pooh is like the original Inside Out, I feel like, where it's just like those characters are. And we, I mean, this is a common thing that's used. Although Joel, you know, I love that you just had this inspiration drop into you. But it is like, it's like I used to say, like I was Eeyore, like that was my life was Eeyore. But I wanted to be Piglet. Like I looked up to Piglet kind of thing. But yeah, that's a thing that's like used of like, which Winnie the Pooh character do you identify with to know like maybe which state you are, like the most comfortable in, right? [Speaker 3] Yeah, but this goes beyond Winnie the Pooh. You wanted to be Piglet. Isn't Piglet like in constant anxiety and afraid of everything? [Speaker 1] Yeah, but for somebody who's Eeyore, Piglet is kind of like the opposite. [Speaker 2] He's a bit more social. [Speaker 1] Yeah. [Speaker 2] Yeah, but this is beyond Winnie the Pooh. [Speaker 1] Also he was like really cute and little and like just kind of fun. And like Tigger was like too much for me. Tigger was like, whoa, you are just like extra, extra. [Speaker 3] Yeah, I've just looked it up now. There's a whole nervous system. [Speaker 1] You know, I like married Tigger basically. And it's great because it's like we need that medicine. Like Erasmus has been the best sort of like healer helper for me, which I think is like where we want relationship. Where it's like you own disowned parts of each other and you can learn how to like move with it or how to be a little bit more like that or take that like, as Erasmus says, like homeopathic dose of certain things or like being around it. And like, that's how we, you know. [Speaker 3] Yeah, I kind of want to close this thread now I've just found this 100 Acre Wood nervous system map. And so Winnie the Pooh, apparently just right, state, safe and social. Maybe. He's a little bit anxious. He's a little bit anxious. I think like constantly like, you know, what's going on a little bit nosy. It's been decades since I've watched that. [Speaker 1] I was going to say, I was like speed a minute. I don't have kids still. [Speaker 3] Tigger, sympathetic hyperarousal. Piglet, sympathetic hypoarousal. So there's a difference between hyperarousal and hyperarousal, which you got into in the other thing. Anxiety, fear. Eeyore, parasympathetic hypoarousal. Freeze, shut down. Rabbit, sympathetic fights. All about order. Kanga, hypervigilance, protection. Owl, intellectualization, disconnection. And then Christopher Robin, the conscious observer, representing the soul, self, the higher mind, trying to connect and integrate all these different states and parts. [Speaker 1] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, what I was saying- We weren't getting nervous system work as kids, guys. [Speaker 2] Yeah, but the thing, but yes. And the thing is, it's like we're talking about this, you know, children's book, but like put on any movie. [Speaker 3] Yeah. [Speaker 2] Put on any TV show. Like different characters are showcasing different states, different parts. I mean, my one acting teacher, when we were doing voice dialogue work and parts work and acting class, like we would analyze, in this class, we analyzed Angels in America, which was a play by Tony Kushner that turned into an HBO miniseries that was pretty epic. And so he would ask people in the class, what character are you most aligned with? You know, what character do you judge the most? And like, just that alone is highlighting, like, you know, where you feel comfortable. Like my one good friend, who was like a little bit more like fucking hard and like, you know, like connected more deeply to like anger. He was like, oh, I love Al Pacino's character more, you know? And whereas like at that time in my, you know, 20 plus years ago, where I was a little bit more people-pleasurist, I was like, oh, no, I didn't like him. He's so mean. He's such a dickhead. You know? And so it'd be interesting to even watch it now and see who I relate to more and where my judgments are and where, you know, and so it's like, everything can be potential data, you know, and how often do I say, you can learn about the parts that you repress and disown by the people you judge, the qualities of the people that you judge, or the qualities of the people you put on a pedestal and you over admire. These are all, these are highlighting aspects of yourself that could be repressed or undeveloped in you. [Speaker 1] Even your daydreams. Talking about the unconscious, right? For Jung, I always really like to bring this in because a lot of people associate the shadow or the unconscious with just the negative parts, like just the bad things that you don't want to admit you want or think about or have these aspects of yourself, but it's also your highest potential. It's also these like positive aspects that are scary to be part of, right? And so there's like any of these things that you sort of disown or are worried about happening or being known within yourself. That's all part of that unconscious, that shadow that's going to be projected out, going to be seen other places and bring up more of this judgment. [Speaker 3] Yeah. Is there a single movie character you would say you resonate with most as like closest to your asthma psychotype? I can't think of it. [Speaker 2] There's nothing that's coming. I would probably ask other people, like, hey, what things have you seen where you go, oh my God, it reminds me of your asthma. Yeah, Dexter, for sure. But anyway, that's for another conversation. No, but obviously I have enough self-awareness to go like, okay, I'm witty and spontaneous and fun and whatever. And so like characters that are a little like cheeky and also have a heart and you can go like, okay, that character is more like your baseline state of like the primary parts of you, your essence that comes forth. You know what I mean? [Speaker 1] And it could be interesting to like, even as you were just saying with that, what you did in acting class of like when you're watching something, when you're watching a movie or a show or whatever, like who do I identify with more and who am I judging more? And what is it about them? Just as like a self-reflective. [Speaker 2] Well, I agree with you 100%. I think people should be watching movies. Sure, you can watch things just to watch it. You wanna check out, you don't have to make everything like this, like deep analysis. Yet, we talk about this often that a lot of people are watching these big epic movies with heroic characters and they're just getting that fix. Like they're feeling it, this emotion, but they're not applying these lessons to their life. They're not going out and living heroically. They just got the fix. And so again, like if you're engaging with literature and you're engaging with like cinema and television, like how can you be more intentional with it? With everything that you said, everything I just said, be curious about why am I disgusted by this character? Why do I love this character? Why am I in love with this character? Why am I fantasizing about this character? Like that's gold for you. And I'm actually super grateful that parts work is becoming more and more popular. Yes, IFS has kind of become more popular. It's more like institutional. It's become more clinical. Like Richard Schwartz did a great job with that, you know? And then the system that I was trained in was started a little earlier with Drs. Howell and Cedric Stone. But like this was like, we all talk this way. Like people who don't even know psychology, people who don't even know about parts work, they're just hanging out. And they're just like, well, a part of me wants to leave this relationship, but another part of me doesn't want to leave this relationship. A part of me wants to go out tonight. Another part of me doesn't want to go out tonight. Like they're not even aware that they're like actually highlighting, sharing that there are these, this nuance and complexity within the being, within the architecture of one's psyche. And so it's like, how can we sit with that more and learn about that more? Because one, we'll have more compassion. I think the more that you embrace more of who you are, especially the stuff that we don't really want to sit with or pay attention to, we can see that in others and have more compassion because you're like, oh yeah, I know that part of me. I know that part of me. As opposed to we're completely repressed and then we project all this shit on other people and you don't realize that you're holding it. And so like this work really ultimately is building towards more self-understanding, more self-compassion, but also compassion for others. It doesn't mean we accept completely shitty behavior, but we can understand, shit, I can be shitty sometimes. I can have these thoughts. And so I'm really grateful that people are becoming more aware of it. And obviously it's a huge module in Rise Above the Herd. I mean, module four, it's I think our longest module where we get into parts work and the architecture of the psyche. Because again, knowledge is power. Let's just be real. Or we can say applied knowledge is empowerment, whatever phrase you want to use. And so when you have this understanding, I mean, that module in Rise Above the Herd, I feel like has brought so many more aha moments for people than other modules in a certain degree. Because it's like, whoa, that's like this sneak peek into themselves. And that's why I love movies like Inside Out. Because that's why it became so popular. Because people go, aha, yes, yes, I get it. And it's just, I don't know, I'm grateful. And again, like for me, that was my initial foray into personal development work. And it laid the foundation for things to come afterwards. And I'm so, so grateful. You know, so I want to give a shout out to Jason Bennett, one of my earliest mentors, who recently came back into my life because we had a falling out for many years. But he played a huge role in my life. And he introduced me to a lot of things and obviously introduced me to Drs. Hal and Sidra's work. So thank you. [Speaker 1] Well, it was also making me think of, so like James Hillman has this, I don't know the exact quote, but he was talking about how like one of the, he thought that one of the main sort of issues in Western modern society is this idea of like single, like solo self versus this like, if you look at like a lot of mythology and things like that, it's like multiple aspects of self or multiple gods even, more of this like polytheistic understanding or awareness. And so he was saying how like a lot of the issues that he thinks are like the modern detriment is this idea that like, it's only supposed to be this one being and one thing and all is unified versus this like, no, we actually have all these different parts. We also have all these different opinions and all these different like ways of being or whatever. And it's like the ability to be in that and be okay with it, understanding that, you know, I know in voice dialect, they use like the aware ego process or like that there is like a center thing. But even if you look at like Carl Jung's like idea of the self, right? It's like all these different aspects and stuff and being okay with that, right? Embracing all of it, being that I have this aspect and this aspect and this aspect and this aspect and there's that through part that it's kind of like, I know you guys have had, I can't remember who it was, but like that orchestra thing where it's like all of these, none of them are bad or wrong or they shouldn't be there. [Speaker 2] It's just different ways of expressing and- Yeah, Gurjeev talked a lot about this, you know, where he's like, human beings lack like a unified eye and that there's many parts and like man is plurality, and that there's sub-personalities. So there are great minds and great thinkers in the past that talked about this and everyone just kind of, they're building on everyone, and now it's getting to a point where it's becoming more out there in the mainstream. So that's what I was referring to in the sense like, I'm not the same person from one to the other. It was that, but I get it. Like, it was just like these sub-personalities kind of take over the wheel or like an instrument takes over, and ideally, the conductor needs to be the leader of the orchestra. And it's like, all right. And again, you're not living moment to moment with this level of micromanaging. You do all this work, you build this awareness, you work on your nervous system, and then you just live your life. And hopefully over time, this stuff is happening just naturally and you have capacity and it's happening fluidly, you know? [Speaker 3] Yeah, there's something to be said like overthinking and overanalyzing your growth process, you know? Like it just happens naturally over time as you've, you know, again, what is it, Heraclitus? No man steps in the same river for he is not the same river and no man steps in the same river twice, but it is not the same river and he's not the same man. Like you find yourself crossing over the same circumstances time and time again, yet over time you respond to them differently, you know? And that's how personal growth ultimately happens. [Speaker 2] Yeah, and you have those moments where you might be in a period of a deep self-introspection and analysis and curiosity and like things are new. It's like you're learning how to ride a bike, you know? And then you're not thinking about riding a bike, you just get on it and you ride the bike. And I feel like on some level that's what you want to move towards. When we talk about wholeness and integration, it's like you're reclaiming aspects of yourself. You know, you're developing aspects of yourself that you haven't developed. Now, again, that's going to look different from person to person, okay? Because you have a human design, you have an astrology, you have this unique thing that's you, but it's like it's your version of that that you move forward in the world. And it's just like we need to move towards more, whatever, capacity and fluidity as opposed to the rigidity. But then there might be moments when we are rigid. It's like we talked about this, even with Will Reason and others, there's a paradox. Humans are walking paradoxes. Life is a paradox. And so rigidity is needed sometimes. And then flexibility is needed other times. Yeah, absolutely. [Speaker 1] And the appropriate responses. [Speaker 2] Yeah, and it's like... [Speaker 3] Sorry I was a bit distracted during that period. I was asking Claude what my movie archetype was based on everything he knows about me. [Speaker 1] As well as the result. [Speaker 3] Well, Aragorn in his strider phase and runner up was Morpheus. So I'm okay with that. [Speaker 2] Okay, your Claude has access as well. Ask it mine now too because it has the operating manual. I'm curious. [Speaker 3] What would you say is your SOS? If I'm Morpheus, you must be Neo. [Speaker 2] Maybe, even though you're younger than me. But it could work. I mean, you are. [Speaker 1] I mean, I'm curious actually based on human design, If you had gotten a really shitty character, would you have shared that? [Speaker 2] It's a fucking AI. It's going to be like, Oh my God, Joel, you're incredible. You're the second coming of Christ. [Speaker 3] It's like Aragorn, specifically the strider before the throne. The six-two hermit walking, unrecognized while doing the actual work. Depth without performance. Speaks rarely. And with weight. All right, here we go. Your SOS, bro. Sean McGuire, aka Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting. Wow. The therapist who's done his own dissents and isn't impressed by your defenses. He's not trying to fix you. He's waiting for you to stop performing. He's read everything, but his real authority is that he's been there into his own grief, his own shadow and came back with the kind of presence you can't fake. When he says it's not your fault, it lands because he's not reading from a manual. That's the whole shadow work, voice dialogue, depth psychology lineage in one character. Sit with someone long enough in the right kind of silence and the part of them they've banished will eventually come to the door. That's your SOS, bro. [Speaker 2] That's wild. I'm curious if it looked into my operating manual with human design, but who cares if it did, dude? That movie is, first of all, one of my favorite movies. Plus it's on my niche, you know, the work I did with John DiAppolito. And my favorite scene from that movie is the part where he's analyzing the photo and then he just takes off his glasses and goes up to Matt Damon's character, Will, and just fucking puts his hands to your throat. If you ever disrespect my wife, I will fucking end you. I will end you. And like, it's like the dance between like deep loving kind and like you will not fucking disrespect the people I care about. So that's pretty fucking cool. [Speaker 3] I love that movie. Yeah. It gave you a runner up as Yoda, the cave dweller who doesn't tell you what's in the cave. Just make sure you go in. Same lineage. That's funny. That's so funny. [Speaker 2] I like AI, man. It's really interesting. Let's do Sophie. There's enough information about Sophie in here. There should be enough information. Let's see. [Speaker 1] I was going to say you haven't put all my stuff. [Speaker 2] Oh no, it doesn't. But I'm wondering if it looked at my operating manual. [Speaker 3] It did, it definitely did. [Speaker 2] I don't know if they bring up my human design at all or no. [Speaker 3] Just real time. Just be happy with your results, all right? [Speaker 2] I am happy, but I know I'm happy, but I like the, you know, you and me accuracy. [Speaker 3] Sophie is the Oracle from the Matrix. Not the mystical proper version. The kitchen version. Baking cookies. Slippers on. Telling you to mind the vase before you've even noticed there is a vase. She does her work through the body and the ordinary. Before she gives Neo a single piece of information, she co-regulates him. Settles his nervous system. Lowers the temperature. Makes the room safe. And only then lets the truth land. That's somatic work in one scene. The body has to feel safe before the mind can hear anything. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. [Speaker 2] That is awesome. [Speaker 1] I gotta watch the Matrix again. I don't remember that. [Speaker 2] Well, I mean, she's Oracle. That's what they go to to find out, like, the truth of the matter. She's the one that tells Neo, like, you're not the one, but she's saying that to him because he needs to discover it on his own, you know? Not be told it. He's gotta walk the path. Can't be told the path. He's gotta walk the path. Yeah. [Speaker 1] I agree with that. [Speaker 3] You know? [Speaker 1] I'll take it. I'll take it. [Speaker 3] Sophie, thank you so much once again for joining us on Hear for the Truth. Do you have any closing words you would like to impart with the people who are currently tapped in and listening to this value-driven conversation? [Speaker 1] Gosh, I guess I'll do a shameless plug. Sign up for Rise Above the Herd. [Speaker 3] Rise Above the Herd, co-created by Aragorn, Sean Maguire, and the Oracle. [Speaker 2] It's amazing. [Speaker 1] Oh my god, you need to add that to the website and have, like, our pictures, like, predisposed. [Speaker 2] AI versions. That's hilarious. [Speaker 1] AI said it, therefore it's true. [Speaker 3] Well, what would you like to leave people with from this conversation? Like, we started on, like, the masses are living in functional freeds. We've disseminated a lot of information here. You know, what is a bite-sized, practical, applied piece of knowledge that you think people can go and walk away from this podcast and apply right now? [Speaker 1] I would say sit with this. What state do I tend to go to the most? Which state do I tend to get the most stuck in? What's my experience of what's happening? So that sort of self-reflection, because then that lets you know, kind of like, where's the growth edges? Like, where to start feeling into, where to start going from there. And if you're like, oh, I'm more in that functional frees place where I'm, like, really numbed out, dissociated within myself, but I'm still, like, functional, getting stuff done, doing all the things, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, so moving out of that, moving out of any kind of free state is that finding, like, the one small thing that connects you or feels something or that you can do with little resistance, right? And then really building that up. So even that self-esteem piece of, like, really, like, positively reinforcing yourself. Like, I did the thing. I did that thing. I felt that thing. I sat with that thing. Because that's reinforcing your system. Like, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay. And the more we can do that is what builds our capacity. It builds that safety within ourself that we can do certain things. We can be with certain things. And then that just grows and grows and grows exponentially. But starting with a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny thing. So, like, the phrase I always say is nervous system work is slow is fast. Like, the slower you go, the faster you're gonna get somewhere. So, like, taking these teeny, teeny, tiny little pieces and just really awarding yourself for that. Really, like, embodying that, like, I did the thing over and over and over again and tuning to yourself as much as possible. [Speaker 3] Beautiful. [Speaker 1] Yeah. [Speaker 3] Thank you. And I've noticed you have, like, an incredible new website that looks immaculately designed. Like, I'm just like, this is possibly the best website for any nervous system practitioner I've ever seen in my life. People can head to sophiefletcherphd.com, I think, to look at that and get in contact with you. This is so predictable. [Speaker 1] Created by Joel Ruffini. Cloud can work. Cloud's now gonna, like, put the oracle in there somewhere. [Speaker 3] You're supposed to be smiling five minutes in advance, knowing that was coming. [Speaker 2] I was waiting for it. And also, my keen eye for copy, okay? We still have some work to do, but it's pretty good right now. Yes, yes. [Speaker 1] Thank you. Thank you, thank you. [Speaker 3] Totally. Get in contact with Sophie. She's on Instagram. Send her a message. Hit her up on our website. She does human design readings. You do, obviously, nervous system-based sessions. And now you're working in somatic birth prep work as well. You've got some offers coming soon on that front too. And of course, she's an integral part of everything that we've built at Rise Above the Herd with her five-part nervous system integration series woven in to that transformational process as well. So Sophie, thank you once again. Erasmus, it was okay seeing you, but anyway. See you next time, guys. Much love. Bye-bye.