Justin Bua Hip Hop, Michelangelo & the Uglification of Culture

Joel 00:00:03.680 - 00:00:44.320 Justin Bua, award winning artist, author, speaker and entrepreneur. Groundbreaking in his field. Bua is internationally known for his best selling collection of fine art posters. The DJ being one of the most popular prints of all time. Starting in the world of commercial art, he designed and illustrated myriads of projects from skateboards and CD covers to advertising campaigns. It developed the look and feel of the opening sequence of MTV's lyrics lounge show. EA Sports video games, NBA Streets and NFL Streets and the World of Slum Villages award winning music video tainted Bua. Welcome to Here for the truth, man. Justin 00:00:44.960 - 00:00:46.880 Thank you guys. Pleasure to be here. Joel 00:00:47.120 - 00:01:16.010 Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to have you, man. This definitely sits at a cross section of a lot of my key interests. I'm a hip hop artist myself. Basketball is second love of my life. Grew up playing NBA street. So really looking forward to getting into this one, man. First and foremost, bro, we want to like just really double click into your personal hero's journey. What was life like growing up? How did you find yourself kind of leading down this path and becoming the man and the artist that you are today? Any of the major rites of passage, we'd love to hear those things like that. Justin 00:01:16.730 - 00:01:18.330 Let's start out with NBA Street. Joel 00:01:18.330 - 00:01:18.890 Let's go. Justin 00:01:19.760 - 00:01:31.600 That you. You loved NBA Street. NBA street was interesting because as successful, it was a very early job and became a massive, ubiquitous EA Sports franchise. Joel 00:01:31.760 - 00:01:32.320 Yep. Justin 00:01:32.720 - 00:01:56.330 And essentially I created the entire look and feel, all the characters and. And they kept building on that game and really that experience was a, was a key experience because I got paid like 10 grand for what became, if you add up all the franchises, a billion dollar franchise. Joel 00:01:56.330 - 00:01:56.810 Wow. Justin 00:01:57.690 - 00:02:14.570 So another learning lesson in, in my long learning lessons on the business side of her, my. Of my artistic journey. So that people are always like, oh my God, you created NBA Street. You must be, you must be rolling. And it's incredible. Joel 00:02:14.570 - 00:02:32.630 And I'm like no, because I didn't make the. But like after seeing your art and then when I read NBA street just then in the bio, I was like of course. Like it's the exact same style. Like I remember playing like Dr. J Bonafide Volume 2. Like it's the exact same. And just it all clicked in that moment as I was reading your biography just then. Justin 00:02:32.630 - 00:02:34.470 Well, but Dr. J was stretch. Joel 00:02:34.790 - 00:02:36.310 Stretch, sorry. That's right. Justin 00:02:37.190 - 00:03:02.750 So I painted him like Dr. J, you know, like I used all these archetypes that lived in my imagination, but that was. Became stretch. And I have all those original paintings by the way here to this day. Which is why but, you know, and then they felt bad. EA Sports felt kind of guilty. And so when they gave me NBA street, they, they treated me a lot better. It was a lot. A different game. Joel 00:03:03.390 - 00:03:13.910 Awesome, man. So, like, what was the kind of like, cultural melting pot that kind of led you towards art and street art and hip hop art in. In the first place? Justin 00:03:14.870 - 00:04:59.730 Well, my grandfather was a letter. He did Felix the Cat, Prince Valiant. He did a lot of the old school lettering. And he was incredible. Like, when I say incredible, like, his hand styles were amazing. And growing up with a single mom, I didn't have a father, so she raised me in New York City and she was a working mom. So I was a latchkey kid. I was always on the streets. I was hanging out, writing graffiti, break dancing. I was a professional break dancer for quite some time. Dance with Dynamic breakers junior Rock Steady Crew. It was right by Rocksteady Park. So I grew up next to like, you know, Ken Swift and Legs and Does. Those were all my, my neighbors in the New York City hip hop world. So I was in the middle of this incredible melting pot of the culture. But it wasn't a culture, it wasn't hip hop yet. It was just an energy and a vibe, a rumbling of the, of the concrete of the streets. And so that I was just. It was, it was a right time, right place. And because my grandfather was such a good letterer and he was so into art, like. And my mom too. My mom was a painter. She wasn't really that good, but she was a painter. And I had so much exposure internally from a, you know, they were collect, they. We had Prince of Bruegel and Katie Kollwitz and Van Gogh and Rembrandt on the walls. And then out in the streets, I would see guys like, you know, Futura, who was working at McDonald's. Futura 2000. I don't know if you guys know him, but you know, classic graffiti writer. Joel 00:05:00.000 - 00:05:00.400 Yep. Justin 00:05:00.400 - 00:05:37.000 John D. Zephyr Hayes scene. They were all guys in my neighborhood and so they were writing graffiti. So I had a, A combination of this incredible street art or graffiti art and academic paintings. Plus I had the Metropolitan Museum where we used to go play tag, you know, so, like, I was. I had so many museums with the Met and the moma and the Frick, the Guggenheim, you know, we had, we had it all. Wow. So it was just. And, and it was. And it was the beginning of hip hop. Joel 00:05:37.320 - 00:05:37.720 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:05:37.720 - 00:05:57.340 It's so unique being someone who grows up in the city, man, like in Manhattan, versus, like, I come from the suburbs, you know, Like, I just feel like, like all the New York City cats that I've come across in my life, man, they're just. I don't know how to say it without being cliche, like, just interesting dudes, man. Like, it's just a different world. Like, what, what, what was it like being a latchkey kid? Justin 00:05:58.700 - 00:08:30.690 I was, I grew up in a. You know, we're lower middle class, so I was, you know, it's. It's unfortunate if you look at it from an outsider's perspective that, oh, this kid's by himself all the time, right? Like that. I had no brothers, I had no sisters. And my mom's working like, you know, seven in the morning till eight at night every day. So I'm just running on the streets. You know, I'm hanging out at the Douglas projects, I'm hanging out at the Dyckman Projects. I'm hanging out, you know, at the Monument. I don't know if, you know, the Monument in New York or Rocksteady park, right down the, you know, West 4th street with the ballers. You know, it's just I have all of these key places that I'm running with, and I'm running with a bunch of street kids, you know, and a lot, most of them were from the project, some of them were not. And so it was just. And we had these SROs. SROs are single room occupancies. So there were, you know, SROs were meant for basically low income housing. But what happened is in the 80s, Ronald Reagan shut down Willow Creek and Creedmoor, which were mental institutions. And they cut the funding and they bust those people to our neighborhood. And I think this is a key element that is not spoken about enough in the culture of hip hop and why it efflores to what it did. But those crazy people came to the neighborhood and they, they went into these SROs, these single room occupancies. So it was like one bathroom on the floor. So my bedroom faced the hallway of. Because as we were, we're up on five and the fifth floor. And my bedroom faced the inside of the hallway of the SROs. So, you know, as a five year old, six year old kid, I was watching people do smack and you know, people kill each other and have fights. And then on the street it was kind of like that too. Because the SROs, which were supposed to be for families, became these breeding grounds for like prostitution. There was a lot of pimps, a lot of hustlers, a lot of junkies, a Lot of criminals and, you know, people then mixed in with, like, normal people who were just low income, who had kids. Yeah. So we had two SROs on my block and 200 in my neighborhood. So that was like, I think that energy, the chaos, the craziness was part of the. Just how we had to navigate and survive the streets. So then we found hip hop. Joel 00:08:31.190 - 00:08:47.590 Yeah. Yeah. Like, can you talk more about your perspective on. On the origins and the birth of hip hop, like, as you see it, like, was it in response to something? Like, what were, like, the key elements that allowed this thing to become such a big part of the culture that it is today, from your perspective? Justin 00:08:48.470 - 00:10:46.420 Well, you know, we. Back in the days when we were just trying to have fun. And so if you. You have to kind of. In order to really understand the hip. The culture in the 80s, you have to understand the culture in the 70s. So in the 70s, you had a lot of gangs. You had, like, you know, the black spades, you had Latin kings, You had all of these different gangs. And so a lot of that generation was in jail. They were dead. They were tired. And the younger brothers, the cousins, the nephews, the sons, I think the daughters, they. They became. They. They just got over it. It was exhausting. And so when. When there was that energy, the spark of, you know, when Cool Herc on Cedric Avenue was. Was playing block parties, that. That energy spread and the positivity spread. And so people weren't into the violence anymore. And so I think that it. If it wasn't for all of those gangs, I think we wouldn't have had the landscape to be able to be creative and have fun. And instead of fight, you know, break dance, and instead, you know, mark territories in ways that were, you know, aggressive, you. They did it artistically, and I think it came out of a lot of violence, and we. It became peaceful. So it was in response. And so once. And also, like, to be honest, like, the. The jams, the block parties, the two 10 turntables and a microphone were a place to meet girls. You know, girls get in free, guys had to pay, you know, so of course everybody's going to the jam because they want to meet the girls. And if you're going to go to the jam, you want to be able to emcee, you want to be able to dance. Right? Like, so it was just. You want to be able to show off. Yerasimos 00:10:46.500 - 00:10:49.140 Yeah, the peacock head. Exactly. Joel 00:10:49.220 - 00:10:54.020 So, like, being able to. To spit was almost like a peacock, like Sean's tail feathers. Justin 00:10:55.060 - 00:12:13.010 And also, like the people today don't understand that much like Hollywood, you know, you go back to the, to the, to the Mickey Rooneys of the world. Like the, the people today in Hollywood, for the most part, they're just like, they're acting, right? And then you have the people singing, then you have the people writing, right? But now back then it was like you had people that did everything. I mean, you know, Fred Astaire was not just dancing, he was, he was singing, he was acting. He was. And I think that that's what we had. Like you were B boying, you were emceeing, you were DJing and you writing graffiti. Like, there's no guys that I knew back in the days that were B boys or poppers that weren't able to write graffiti then. Nobody or, or beatbox or. You know what I mean? So it was a renaissance thing, because during the Renaissance, they taught everything under one umbrella. It was light logic, which was drawing, painting and, you know, architecture and sculpture. They were multifaceted. It wasn't just one thing because they're all interconnected. I think that was what was so special about hip hop is that we were interconnected. We understood that it was all, all connected by one giant, you know, bubble of love in, in a deeper way. Joel 00:12:13.330 - 00:12:17.010 Wow, I love that, man. How would, how would you define hip hop? I'm curious. Justin 00:12:18.850 - 00:13:43.700 Hip hop is. Well, this is how I would define it. And I don't think it's become this unfortunately, but I would define it as Hip hop is the, is the kind of quintessential experiential, the creative experience of love and God. Right. Like so, like it almost feels. Because this is what's crazy. Hip hop was started by children. There was no, there was no adults, nobody. The greatest, most powerful trillion dollar industry right now was started by a bunch of kids. So where did that come from? That kind of had to be. I always feel like it was just given to the children to find love through God, which is through the music and the dance and the, and the art. That's how I feel like it. It. That's the real tenants of hip hop is really just about love and positivity. And also, you know, you're here for the truth. The truth is that real hip hop is about going against all the. And keeping it authentic. And so, you know, it was ironic during, you know, the pandemic, how many people in hip hop were really fighting for, you know, the, the pharmaceutical companies, right? And all of. Right, they were like supporting trillion dollar conglomerates that they should have been questioning. Yerasimos 00:13:44.020 - 00:14:21.190 Yeah, yeah, I want to. I want to. I want to get into that in more detail for sure, because as someone who lived in New York City, is a certain climate there regarding these things, but sociopolitically, but like, growing up the way you grew up, you know, your mom working all the time, being in that environment, like, who. Like, was it just like, who were the, like, elders that you were learning from? Like, mentorship figures or, like, you know, like, did you get into? And then you're like, man, I gotta, you know, get healthy. I gotta take care of myself. Like, what was that like? Because I know people who grew up, environments like that. Maybe they were dope fiends for five years or 10 years. Like. Like, what was it for you? Justin 00:14:22.790 - 00:16:05.490 I had a lot of mentors because I think that psychologically I was looking for a father. And ironically, I found him a lot on tv. He was a. He was a big soap star on a. On a. He was like. There was four channels. It was like, cbs, NBC, abc and pbs, and he was on cbs. He was the male love interest, a guy named Bill Prentice. And he. He was on a soap called Love of Life, which was huge at the time, is in the 70s. So I watched him on TV, but I never saw him, so it was really, really, really weird. So he definitely wasn't a role model. But I had. My role models were like, they were. They were bad guys, you know, Like, I had a guy named Boogie George, and Boogie George was my best friend, and he was this Puerto Rican dude who lived up the block, and he was a thief and he was a con artist, wound up going to jail for a long time. But I was rolling with guys like that and, you know, shaky and these guys who were, you know, they were kind of criminal, criminally minded people. So I don't think that those people that I ran the streets with were good influences, but they taught me how to survive. They were surviving, and I think that's what I extracted from them. And then my grandfather was a very good role model for me because he was very hardworking and he came from the old school, you know, he. He was just a different kind of guy. You know, back in the days when people were feral and undomesticated. That's kind of how he was. And, you know, I had long. You know, at one point my hair got long. He's like, you got to cut your hair. Yerasimos 00:16:05.490 - 00:16:05.970 You know what I mean? Justin 00:16:05.970 - 00:16:51.410 It was just so old school. He hated the Beatles because he was like, oh, they started all this drug stuff. So he was he was straight, but there was something about his discipline that I. That became part of my, my DNA. His intense discipline of work. He always had work. He never stopped working until he was in his 90s. And. And I think that he was a really big role model over here. And then the, you know, the, the kids from the street were role models over here. And they weren't. Like I said, they weren't necessarily good people, but. But they were. They were survivalists and they, they taught me a lot about how to navigate the streets. Joel 00:16:51.570 - 00:17:02.850 Yeah. So, like, what was your come up in art like? Like, when. When did you start being, like, recognized for, you know, your, Your impact on the culture and the pieces that you were kind of putting together? Justin 00:17:04.910 - 00:17:51.030 I started. I got a deal with the distributor in New York company and they love my work and started doing prints of it. This is back when posters were huge. And so I started doing a lot of jazz imagery because he saw some of my jazz stuff and he was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna put this out there. And it started. I didn't know how ubiquitous it was getting because there was no real. There was no Internet. We're talking about 1993, you know, when things were just. It was probably dial up back then. And so as my. As the Internet grew and I got online, I started seeing, you know, people sending me fan mail. Joel 00:17:51.430 - 00:17:51.910 Wow. Justin 00:17:51.990 - 00:18:29.690 I work, like, they would figure out how to get in touch with me. Like, and that was the beginning when I knew that my work was getting out there because I was doing record covers. You know, I did The Quad City DJs and a bunch of commercial work, a lot of editorial stuff from magazines, covers of magazines, interior editorial spreads. But I started realizing when people were writing me that my work was reaching people because I had no idea. And he was a con artist. So I didn't. I didn't know I was selling millions of prints. I thought I was selling thousands of prints because he was trying to take all my money. Joel 00:18:29.930 - 00:18:30.410 Yeah. Justin 00:18:30.650 - 00:18:52.870 That was the first time I was like, wait a minute, how come? Oh, no. As you're just getting, you know, just people getting in touch, but, you know, it's a numbers game. So the more you had. The more people started writing me, the more I was like, wait a minute, is my work selling a lot and that, you know. Yeah. I didn't realize how much until way later in my career the, you know, they were selling. Joel 00:18:53.430 - 00:19:07.589 Yeah. And so, like, like, was there a point in time where, like, you really became, like, known for this specific type of like, kind of hip hop art and this unique style of yours that is really, like, I mean, has been coming through. Justin 00:19:08.630 - 00:20:40.600 Well, it wasn't until 2001 that I did the DJ that I started even doing hip hop art because he didn't want me to do hip hop art. And I wanted. I was trying to always get my own unique perspective of what I wanted to do in terms of the subject matter. But he was like, no one's going to buy that. It's not going to sell. And so I said, just give me an opportunity. And he said, okay, if you do one more print of A Piano man and it's a hit, then I'll do something you want to do. So he did, and I did the DJ and I painted the dj and it took me a long time, and then he rolled it out and nobody wanted it. And I was like, oh, man, he was right. Like, I. I don't. He was right. Like, nobody wants hip hop. And then a company in Canada called Imaginus, which is a college campus poster distributor, started selling it everywhere. And it was like 100,000, 10,000. And pretty soon everybody in the States followed suit and they just wanted to do whatever Canada did, and they started distributing it like crazy. And so that was the first piece that really went like super duper gangbusters. And it was the first hip hop painting ever to be released like that on a mass scale. And so that became so ubiquitous, I would put it up there with maybe with some of the, you know, like, in terms of sales, like Starry Night and American Gothic by Grant Wood and Dali's Persistence of Memory, you know, that's how ubiquitous that image came became. But of course, he was telling me that they didn't. They weren't selling that much. Yerasimos 00:20:41.320 - 00:20:51.800 Hey, was that, Was that the first time you're saying the story before, like, where you started getting the inklings of, like, how the, the businesses and people are trying to take advantage of young artists, up and coming artists. Justin 00:20:53.160 - 00:21:19.250 Yeah, I think that that's the first time it really clicked, is when I started realizing that things aren't matching up, you know, and you hear the stories like Billy Joel does Piano man. He gets $7,000 of royalties from, like, one of the biggest songs ever. Musicians are getting, like, robbed all the time. But I never even. It never even connected to me because I was just stoked to, to be working. Yerasimos 00:21:19.730 - 00:21:20.210 Yeah. Justin 00:21:20.290 - 00:22:20.330 To making any money, like, for me. And as I got older and I was, well, wait a minute, what's really going on here? Because if you think about 16 million prints. That was 25 years ago. It sold three. It made, you know, if you average around $20 a print, we're talking about $320 million, you know, and I got less than a million dollars of that. So you start doing the math, going, something's wrong. And then when you. You look at his books, you know, they're. You know, they're all written in pencil. So something didn't feel right. But he believed in me, and nobody really believed in me on that level. So there's the other side of that, the dichotomy of the fact that here's a guy who financially is scandalous, but the other side of him is, like, he believed in my work and he's getting out into the world. So he was the reason that I was successful. Joel 00:22:20.970 - 00:22:43.250 Yep. Interesting, man. Hey, I'm curious, like, you hear a lot of stories about, you know, when hip hop started shifting towards, like, gangster rap and the influence of gangster rap and potential, like, CIA involvement when it came to some of that stuff. What are your thoughts on, like, when it. When the gangster rap influence really started becoming heavy in hip hop culture? Justin 00:22:44.210 - 00:24:20.870 I was in. I was. I went to Art center in Pasadena, and it was an incredible school. And I was friends with an incredible artist named Reuben Hickman. And he came from the punk rock world. So, you know, I came from hip hop, he came from punk rock, from Northern California. He was doing posters at the River Theater for Primus and Red Hot Chili Peppers and Suicidal Tendencies. And he pulled me into those jobs, and through meeting him, believe it or not, it's a weird thing, I started getting into gangster rap. I started getting into NWA because that was very accepted amongst all of the, you know, underground artists in those days. Like, they would listen to Suicidal Tendencies and Red Hot Chili Peppers, but they also loved, you know, Easy E and Ice Cube, right? So. And I was like, no, I don't. That music's garbage. It's all about East Coast Big Daddy Kane, Rakim and Eric B. You that know, this is all nonsense. But then as I got into. I was like, oh, my God, this is incredible. So for me, you know, I don't. I don't go down the CIA there, you know, whatever. What I mean, I just feel like you get into really dissecting NWA and that. That shit is just so raw and real and whatever. Some of the. In my opinion, some of the greatest songs of all time. And once again, you know, you've seen the movie, you read the book, you know, the stories you get into Jerry Heller and that whole. No, it's all money. You know, it's all. Is. Of course, there's the other side of it. Joel 00:24:20.870 - 00:24:25.150 Of course, wherever there's energy, there's going to be corruption at some point in time. Yeah. Justin 00:24:25.870 - 00:24:56.590 And exploitation, you know, and so. But what you got from NWA is some of the most banging music of all time and some of the craziest rap artists ever. And. And Dr. Dre. You know, those beats were just, like, phenomenal. Just. It just was another level. Like, we on the east coast, we had, you know, Marley Marle and producers, like. Like that. We had a different kind of level, but. But then Dre came along and kind of just changed the game. Joel 00:24:58.110 - 00:25:14.760 Yeah, no, thanks. Ben. I'm curious. Do you have, like, a personal, like, ethos or philosophy when it comes to art? Like, I want to tap more into your unique perspective of, like, what art is on a philosophical level. Justin 00:25:17.480 - 00:27:13.010 Well, you know, I think that art is. Is one of the most. And specifically drawing, it's one of the most spiritual journeys that one can take. You know, I would. I would equate it to breath work or whatever. I. It's. It's. It's. It's deep, it's powerful. Real drawing, real painting. The. It's a channel from the divine. Right. Like, it's a channel from Jehovah to be able to express not just you, but something deeper. And unfortunately, you know, most contemporary art today is economics and not. Not art. You know, it's. It's different. It's commodity. There's been a commodification of the art world, and that's just the truth of it. And it's also like, you think about Michelangelo. I mean, he. He was. He was the hand of God. Right? And that's why he was kind of enslaved to Pope Julius ii, because he had to do whatever he told him to do, and the Medici family, too. And as much as he didn't want to do a lot of it, he did it because they knew that he was kind of anointed. And that was just direct channel from God. You know, he's only doing all these incredible biblical things and just. And all. And many artists, Rembrandt, Titian, Raphael, they're just, like, channeling. It's like you're channeling, you know, like, on the deepest level, you're really channeling. Yerasimos 00:27:15.080 - 00:27:15.360 Yeah. Justin 00:27:15.360 - 00:27:19.080 God, that's what I. That's what I think the deepest level is of. Yerasimos 00:27:19.080 - 00:28:03.380 That is that scene in one of my favorite movies of all time, Goodwill Hunting, when Robin Williams is sitting with Matt Damon, he's there by the river, and they're having that talk, and he's like, yeah, you maybe read all the books on art, but you can't tell me what it's like to be in the Sistine Chapel and look up, you know, because of that movie. I went to go see it. And just the type of art when you. When you see that type of art from the past. And I'm curious, your views, like, you know, the level of artistry for something like that, and then your views on someone like a Jackson Pollock or people that came after, like. Like. Or Rothko, like, where the art just went in a completely different direction, you know? And so I'm curious your thoughts on all that. Justin 00:28:05.060 - 00:30:14.170 Well, you know, there were. It's funny to even say Michelangelo and Pollock or Rothko in the same. Something. Because. But it's. But it's funny, right? Like, how could you. Okay, let's think about what Michelangelo would think of them. Like, he wouldn't even, you know, I mean, he would be probably sick. He would feel like. Wait, he would feel sick at the amount of money that they were making, maybe. And they would. He would feel. He definitely would think it was not art. I mean, he wouldn't even understand what it was. Now, I know a lot of people who say they've stood in front of a Rothko and they've weeped, they've cried. But I think that's, in my opinion, their own personal projection of what they think, because Michelangelo was superhuman, and he was always searching. He was always trying to get better. He's 81. He said, I'm just beginning to learn how to draw. That's a crazy thing from him, from. To say Michelangelo was the greatest sculptor that's ever lived in the history of the world. No one's ever been greater ever. It's never happened. And think about when he was working hundreds of years ago. Nobody has ever been better. Nobody. It's impossible. He was an incredible draftsman, One of the top 10 of all times. And he was a good painter. Wasn't the greatest. Drew. Drew and painted volumetric. But. But he was very, very good. But to be like, think about that and think about those stats in basketball. That's like Michael Jordan. Like, you. You are. He is the best sculptor that's ever lived. He's top, you know, 10 draftsmen that's ever live. Top 10 compositionalists that ever live, and top, you know, 100 painters in terms of, you know, painting that's ever lived and architecture and poetry and all the other things, you compare that to Rothko, who looks like, it looks like vomit, you know, cleaned up orange juice that you spilled on a canvas. It's, it's crazy. It's just, it's insane. Like, people are so, so this is, this. Joel 00:30:14.170 - 00:30:38.240 I, I, I, I agree with you. And it seems to me there is something objective about standards in art, yet we keep hearing that art is subjective in some capacity. Yet is it really when you, when you weigh up the, the, the, the effort, the timescale, the thought process, the mastery that goes into making two objectively different pieces of art? Yerasimos 00:30:39.760 - 00:30:40.080 Yeah. Justin 00:30:40.080 - 00:34:25.180 I think that you have an institution that's built around propping up art in the contemporary market. For example, whether it's, you know, Jeff Koons or Rauschenberg or de Kooning. And, you know, I, I like a lot of contemporary art. I like Wayne Thiebaud. I, I like de Kooning. I like Dieben Korn. I like a lot of artists that are contemporary. But there's artists that are contemporary that, in my opinion, it's a joke. It's, like, hilarious. But I think that there's such an institution built around it. And the biggest problem is that because that exists and because teachers who learned from them in the 60s, our teaching in the academic sphere, it's really destroyed the spirituality of what drawing is meant to be. Like great drawing is a spiritual practice, and Michelangelo was in a state of flow in the spiritual practice all the time. You have to draw to some level to, to depart. It's great to depart from them. I mean, Picasso was a prodigy. He, he departed, went on to, you know, be a Cubist. And, you know, he did his red period, his blue period, did collage. I mean, he departed, but he came from a place of true understanding, the rigor of academia. Right. And you don't have to be Michelangelo. You can, you, Van Gogh was an amazing artist. And Van Gogh wasn't a great draftsman. He just wasn't. He was, he was getting better and better, but he was so emotional. We can all feel that we can all collectively say, oh, my God, that's so great. Right. A lot of artists are like that, but there's other artists who I feel are just institutionally accepted. But you remember that is, does it have to do. And I keep this as an open question with the fact that there is a group of people who are very interested in keeping their work at a high price point. Right. Because people are vested in it. So it's like a stock. So we have to collectively make sure. That things are getting out there into the world. Now Pollock, you got into the CIA question before, was part of a movement, was one of the artists, whether he knew it or not, was by proxy, who knows where they were getting abstract contemporary art out there into the world because there was an interest for people, for government agencies, for the rest of the world to think that we were free thinkers as opposed to the rigid construction of Russian artists. We put a lot of money into shows and propaganda, getting our work out there to the world, the Jackson Pollock type of art into the world to show that we were free thinking and we didn't have that rigidity and those constraints of, like the Russian artist did. So I think that. I think that's. That's an important thing and that's been documented historically. That's not B.S. I mean, there's a lot of. There's a lot of breadcrumbs you can follow for that. And a lot of people have talked about it. So we had an interest in. In pushing that abstract art into the world. Yerasimos 00:34:26.220 - 00:34:46.570 Yeah. Hey, Justin, overall, when you look at, generally speaking, the art of today versus, you know, generations past, do you. Would you agree with the statement that art ultimately is like a reflection of the spiritual state of man, that we are more spiritually bankrupt in a lot of ways culturally, today? And so that's reflecting in the art. Justin 00:34:48.650 - 00:37:03.870 I think so. I think there's just. It's changed so dramatically even in the last couple of years, where art has to become performative to some extent. Right. Because people are always creating art for Instagram, creating art for TikTok. Right. It's as opposed to just creating art to create art. We don't. Now that's. There's a pragmatism there where people can't create art just to create art because they can't survive. And art is a luxury item. It's not. We're not in the business of food and water. We're in the business of selling ideas on a canvas and more and more illustrative jobs, the editorial world, the advertising world, are replaced by computers, AI, Photoshop, procreate. There's less opportunities for artists. So I think you have to. Before we say that concretely, we have to really understand that, like, we are. We're trapped. We're trapped. We're trapped by figuring out, like, how to walk the tightrope between making great art and not having to make great art for performance. Then Michelangelo would also say he was trapped because he would. He. He felt like he was a slave to the Medici Family and to. To the Pope. So was it. It's a different kind of trap. But there's a tremendous amount of great artists out there today. I know because I. I know some of them. And it's very difficult for artists, like musicians, like any artists, to. To make it. But great art is the greatest form of spiritual practice for sure. I mean, it's. When you see great art, like when you see a Rembrandt painting or a Caravaggio or, you know, just a beautiful mural by Diego Rivera or whatever, I mean, it's. It's like you. It's like you're. You're feeling God. The presence of God. Yerasimos 00:37:04.350 - 00:38:02.490 Yeah. I remember after I graduated college, I did what some people do. I took my savings and I backpacked around Europe. And I wouldn't consider myself an artist in a sense, like, but I appreciated art and I. I made it a. A focus of mine to just go around to all the top museums. And I did this trip solo. And, like, what you're saying is so true. Like, I would just sit at these. These museums and just sit in front of these paintings for, like, I'd pick a painting and something, sit there for like an hour, and I'd be moved to real tears, you know, like, it felt like I was in the presence of something I couldn't even put a. I couldn't even. I couldn't even put words to, you know, And I. And I. I just. And a lot of the stuff I see today, like, it's just. I feel like it just, like, dead inside. Like it's the complete opposite, you know,. Justin 00:38:02.490 - 00:38:27.740 Because you feel like I could do that. I could just throw people paint against the wall. I could just do a little stain. And you know, the historians, and I have my friend Lizzie Dassen, she's a PhD professor. One of the smartest people I've ever met in my life. One of the most articulate people I've ever met in my own life. And she loves Pollock and she loves Rothko. And I try to hear her because she's in many ways smarter than me. Certainly more articulate than me. And I just go, like. Joel 00:38:27.740 - 00:38:28.100 I just. Justin 00:38:28.100 - 00:38:29.540 No matter what you say, it's. Joel 00:38:29.540 - 00:38:29.780 It's. Justin 00:38:29.780 - 00:38:29.940 Just. Joel 00:38:29.940 - 00:38:30.180 It's. Justin 00:38:30.180 - 00:38:59.700 All this is just fake. It's a con. Like, you're. You're smarter than me, but you've been conned because I. Because I grew up with Boogie George. And I know the hustle. I know the three card money. I know how it is to pickpocket. I know the game. And you're a way more articulate professor of art history than I am. But you've been conned and you don't know it. And that's just how I feel. Yeah. Joel 00:38:59.700 - 00:39:03.500 Have you, have you ever read the Romantic Manifesto by Ayn Rand? Justin 00:39:04.060 - 00:39:04.460 No. Joel 00:39:04.780 - 00:39:49.760 It's her specific commentary on art specifically. And for her, art is directly correlated to one's sense of life. So your specific perceptions on life, existence, humanity, your metaphysical value judgment's going to be reflected in the arts. So, like, when you see beautiful, emotive, like, arts, it's like that is like a reflection of that artist, like in the world and in, in, in a being. And when you see like some of the abstract, nonsensical, non rational stuff that we see today, again, it's a reflection of distortions that are happening within that person's like, value, judgment and sense of life and perspective on reality as well. Justin 00:39:51.690 - 00:41:38.280 You know, my wife and I went to, on to what you were saying before we went to a. I forgot the church. It was, it was like down from Notre Dame and it had, it was like a. And I never even been there before. It was a smaller church, but it had the art, just a little art that had in there, you know, compared to. Because we went to the Musee d' Orsay and it was amazing and incredible, but you're going there to see art. But this was just a church and everything in there was insane. Everything in there was good. Everybody was good. Everybody. There was not one mural that wasn't good. There was degrees, there was a Delacroix in there, which was insane. I was like, wait, that's a Delacroix in this, this smaller church. It's just crazy. Eugene Delacroix, who did Liberty Leading the People, one of the greatest artists ever. But, like, nothing wasn't great. The architecture was great, the stained glass was great. It was all excellent. It was extremely well thought out, well planned, really smart, highly intellectual, deep, profound in every way. The layout, composition of the rafters, just everything was brilliant. And so that dumbing down that we're living in now is reflected in the art, is reflected in the architecture. It's reflected in the palette. And the palettes aren't colorful. They're. And you know, there's a. There's a deeper reason for that. And I feel like there's a deeper reason for why we've been programmed to think that Pollock is a genius. And these, you know, these suburban condominiums are great. Joel 00:41:38.600 - 00:41:40.920 Yeah. There's a general uglification. Justin 00:41:43.560 - 00:41:43.920 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:41:43.920 - 00:42:49.010 Well, it's interesting too, because it's impacting even people in the, let's say the so called, like truth seeking, community as well. Because we look at things from the past and we go, man couldn't have created that, you know, but then you take a hundred, let's say 80% of Michelangelo's, maybe not Michelangelo's, but there's a notch or two below Michelangelo's. The, all the different artisans, the metal workers, the woodworkers that have committed their entire life to these crafts and then they don't have all the options and the distractions. And like you said, a lot of them are like slaves. They're like, this is what you do. This is what you're going to do for 15 hours a day for however long and build these amazing cathedrals and the architecture. But in today's world we go, no, that couldn't have happened because we couldn't do that. You know, it must have been aliens or you know, an old civilization that is underneath mud. Now. I'm not saying I, I know what happened for sure, but I think this idea has infested people's minds that man could not create these things. Or at least a group of, of of people cannot create these things. Justin 00:42:49.810 - 00:43:17.900 Well, we, we do things faster, we do things cheaper. A lot of it is economics. It's just like a lot cheaper to get drywall than it is to, you know, like, even my foundation we poured here at my studio. Like it was really expensive. Like everything is so expensive now. And it's easy to do things cheaply and everything is kind of done cheaply, from the architecture to the designs to the artwork. Yerasimos 00:43:18.780 - 00:43:28.750 Well, it seems like an easy answer to go like, what's an economic thing as opposed to. Let me just create this entire story about how man could not have created this a few hundred years ago. Joel 00:43:28.750 - 00:43:32.030 Like, it's the right answer, man. We've all of it. Yeah. Justin 00:43:32.030 - 00:45:14.440 You know, I just did a painting called Skywalker's that was a painting of the Empire, the iron Building, the iron workers building the Empire State Building. And they're looking out on, you know, the, the Chrysler Building that's been built. And so like this, it's, it's a bunch of these paintings I'm doing and doing a series capsule of Skywalkers of all the men who built New York City, the skyline. It was an incredible time. Bizarrely, no one's ever done a series on that. And I had the opportunity to do it because my, my client is a mohawk and people don't know this. It wasn't just The Irish and Italians and the Eastern Europeans and the Scandinavians. But it was also the Mohawks that built New York City. They were incredible skywalkers. No safety nets, no harnesses, nothing. And they did it in quintets. So not only is the material better that they were using, but there is a dance and a rhythm to the sequencing of it. You have the. The heater who has the oven of coals, and they're heating up the rivets, and then they throw it literally sometimes, you know, 50ft and they're 80ft up. They throw these giant rivets burning hot, to the catcher, and then, you know, the catcher throws it to the. To the bucker up who holds it for the guy who has the pneumatic hammer. So these four people are working in concert, right? Like, even. My point being that even the humans that are on site are artistic. Yerasimos 00:45:15.800 - 00:45:16.040 There. Justin 00:45:16.760 - 00:46:13.580 There's a dance and a rhythm and a poetry to the way that they are building these buildings. And there's a reason why the New York skyline, the Flatiron Building, Rockefeller Plaza, World Trade Center, Empire State Building, Chrysler Building, are the greatest. Were these great monuments, right? Kind of like the Renaissance and then it stops, like, and then we don't. We don't have that kind of those buildings anymore for people who, who were the iron workers become. One person becomes the iron worker, right. Like, so they get phased out. So a lot of the. Even the techniques, and eventually, right, it'll just be robots building it. I mean, we're using. They're using cranes and pneumatic hammers and whatever, but eventually it will just be robots. There won't be a lot of humans involved. Joel 00:46:14.300 - 00:46:14.860 Yeah. Justin 00:46:15.660 - 00:46:49.260 Yep. Sad. Sad to say. And there's something about the humanity of these structures. When I was researching all the New York stuff, I was realizing that, like, wow, it was really. It feels. This is really kind of similar to the Renaissance. There was such artistry in these designs and, and so much thought and care and time and energy and manpower and grit. Like, it's just a different kind of world. And now it's just not like that. Joel 00:46:49.420 - 00:47:38.730 Yeah, now you're speaking some, some hard truths, man. I, I really think it all boils down to the economic thing and, like, the distortion and the dilution of. Of the money supply. And when you get fiat money, ultimately you're going to get fiat art, right? Because over time, when you dilute the money supply and you distort what value actually is, then everything else becomes distorted as well. And what we think is a dollar was no longer a dollar we think it was. A Rembrandt is no longer a Rembrandt. You know what. Whatever it might be, because you're literally siphoning human life force. At the core of money is human energy exchange. And when you fuck with the money, you're fucking with how much human energy is actually going into something, what that's actually worth. And with all the uglification that we see today, all the cheap bullshit that we see today, I really think is, you know, that's what sits at the core. Justin 00:47:40.810 - 00:47:43.130 Yeah, yeah. Joel 00:47:43.690 - 00:47:56.970 And you know, the thing that you said is like, yeah, I think we're going to see a very robotic future when it comes to these buildings and stuff like that. But I'm curious, like, does that make the human input more valuable for those that choose to, you know, go that route? Justin 00:47:58.900 - 00:47:59.620 I hope so. Joel 00:47:59.700 - 00:48:00.180 Yeah. Justin 00:48:00.580 - 00:48:04.340 You know, like, the way things are going, I. I don't know. Joel 00:48:05.060 - 00:48:05.580 I really. Justin 00:48:05.580 - 00:49:27.740 No, I don't. I don't know if it's going to become. If this is a scalable, you know, neural network or. To me, AI gets. There's so many amazing, incredible things about it. But there's another part that just. It feels like it gets stuck and it loops and there's a problem with how it thinks. And weirdly enough, it thinks. Like when I see all these animations, you know, because I come from doing a lot of animations as well. Like the animation. When people are putting together these incredible AI animations, they don't realize that it's not just these people's ideas when they prompt them, because the AI goes off and kind of oftentimes does what it wants to do. You have to beat it into doing what you want it to do. And even when you do that, it doesn't do it. So my friends that are the highest level in that industry, they can't control the behavior. And so ultimately, when you see these people, like, oh, look at this whole total AI movie that was, you know, done the way, say I animated movie that was done by these artists. It's like, no, it's. It wasn't. It did its own thing and they figured it out in post. It won't do exactly what you needed to do. Yeah, sense. Joel 00:49:27.740 - 00:49:29.260 Yeah, it makes sense. Makes sense. Justin 00:49:29.420 - 00:49:47.230 How do you see the future doing what it wants you to. It's doing what it wants to do and then you're figuring out in the end how to edit it. And a lot of those ideas weren't necessarily the artist ideas. It was the, you know, anthropics ideas or Whoever, Whoever, you know, hits field or whatever. I don't know. Joel 00:49:47.230 - 00:50:11.190 Yep. Like, it seems there's, there's obviously, you know, no avoiding AI becoming ubiquitous in these fields. So, like, how do you see the future of authenticity at the Croc, at the cross section of art and AI and like, the artists that might choose to involve AI in some capacity because they find it unavoidable or whatever? Like, does that, what does that look like? Does it exist to you? Justin 00:50:12.530 - 00:51:16.140 I don't know. I don't have the answer. I'm. I think, I think it's going to have to be integrated on some level because every single person's integrating it, every single company's integrating it. Ironically, I was sitting next to a. I flew back from Toronto yesterday and I sat next to somebody from Meta and she was saying that she. That Zuckerberg has all the greatest tools, and even with all the greatest tools, there's a. It. It hallucinates. She calls it hallucinating. It hallucinates a lot and it comes up with its own BS and it's wrong a lot. Even. So she. I'm like, are you using, like, Astro and Chachi bt? We're like. She's like, no, it's like an. It's. It's its own system that has the best and the latest, and, you know, the latest software. She's like, even with all of that, there's a lot of problems. So you, you have to think of everything. And I would say this for Photoshop and, you know, it's. It's a tool. Joel 00:51:16.460 - 00:51:16.900 Yep. Justin 00:51:16.900 - 00:51:37.420 If you use it as a tool and the, the artist is, is the. The king. And if you allow it to be more than a tool, then what, what are you doing? You're just allowing it to. You're working for it. It's not working for you. Joel 00:51:39.740 - 00:51:40.700 Yeah, yeah. Justin 00:51:40.940 - 00:51:42.700 The world is changing dramatically. Yerasimos 00:51:45.260 - 00:52:03.170 How do you stay grounded? Like, obviously you do your art, but like being in an ever evolving technological world and devices and phones and computers and this and that. Like, like, what's your personal practice? To stay connected to these deeper parts of yourself and not get lost in all the tech. Justin 00:52:05.250 - 00:52:34.000 My wife, my. My wife, you know, like, I'm doing this incredible painting and I think it's amazing. And she comes in and she's like, are you going to fix the arm? And I'm like, what? She's like, are you done? I mean, like, I'm. What are you talking about? It's. I'm. I'm done with it. No, you can't do that. That's not like so. And then of course I'll go, is there anything you love about it? Yerasimos 00:52:34.000 - 00:52:34.680 You know what I mean? Justin 00:52:34.680 - 00:52:49.720 Yeah, I do. But she gets right to the core of the. She's kind of a authenticity meter. A me. She has a. And by the way, she's from Melbourne. Joel 00:52:50.370 - 00:52:52.130 Oh, wow. Amazing. Justin 00:52:52.130 - 00:55:35.380 LA Melbourne. So she has a very great ability in her own way to ground me from the right. Because she's not into the. In any way shape and form. Right. Let's just, just keep it real. And she keeps it real from many perspectives. So I think that helps ground me. I think my kids help ground me. I have three kids, two younger kids. And that helps. I think that. And I would put it in that order like my wife, my kids. And then maybe you know, something like weed. Because weed is a weed. The spirit of weed for me. And I've been smoking weed since I was I think 10. Don't advocate it kids. But you know, I'm from. I'm from New York and we've been smoking weed a long time, man. And I. Something about the spirit of the weed that kind of looks you in the face sometimes. It goes, what the are you doing, man? Like, are you really gonna eat that right now? Like there's, you know, are you. Do you really think that that's okay, you know, or how come you never move your body? You're just sitting at the easel for eight hours that you're gonna break you weak, you know, like it's just feel like something about the spirit of weed too grounds me, but it's tricky. That's a balanced one, right? Because you for me, I'm not a. I'm not a stoner. That doesn't work. I always work. I don't gotta watch a movie, man. Just like, you know, that's not me. I can't do that. I'm a. I'm a very hard working crazy person. So my wife is. I put my wife as number one in terms of checking me. She really checks the. From day one of our relationship and you know, in that order. My wife, my kids. And then. And then we. And then having good, you know, quality foods. We have our own water, our own well goes through a. It's just all of the, you know, we try to only eat it Farmers markets. We don't barely shop at supermarkets anymore. It's just. That helps and just you know, just avoiding where. And this is not maybe grounding, but this is just kind of grounding in terms of like just never being around any chemicals. At all. Yerasimos 00:55:35.380 - 00:55:35.700 Ever. Justin 00:55:36.500 - 00:55:57.060 You know, like not around people who are using Tide. And I just got back on a plane and like, I could smell my clothes are full of forever chemicals. It's just. I can't do it, man. Yeah, they smell like Tide. They have cologne on makeup. I'm like, you can't. Like, don't even come in the house, man. Don't even get in my house. Like, get out of my house. Yerasimos 00:55:57.700 - 00:56:11.040 It is wild, the sensitivity that builds up. Like when you are living this like very natural life. Like I always say, like occasionally if happen to be in a mall for some reason, I just walk by Sephora. Dude, a bomb has gone off. Justin 00:56:11.440 - 00:56:14.600 It's poison, you know, it's wild. It's. It's. Yerasimos 00:56:14.600 - 00:56:14.880 It. Justin 00:56:14.880 - 00:56:41.720 You're around poison so much and sometimes people, even in the natural health world, these be smelling like. I don't know what they're like, yeah, I. I only use eco. You know, all. Dude, it's still Unilever. It's still the same people that make Tide. Then you're using your little spread of cologne then and what. But this. You want to do that to yourself. That's cool. But don't. Don't hug me. Stay over there. I mean, I'm. Joel 00:56:41.800 - 00:56:42.360 You could. Justin 00:56:42.520 - 00:57:21.050 The off gassing is crazy too. These are designed synthetically. These chemicals to be forever chemicals to be on you forever. Forever into your. Into your clothes, right into your blood, right into people. It's all over, man. And you can't. I'm on the. Every time I fly, they have those aerosolized Glade things that are going just weird. Like, what. What kind of synthetic nonsense is this? Or you go to a. Like my assistant was telling me. I just went to a doctor's office and they've got glades everywhere. In the doctor's office? Like how backwards. But it's everywhere. Yerasimos 00:57:21.050 - 00:57:21.770 It's wild. Justin 00:57:22.090 - 00:57:30.890 Wow. Dish soap. Like, I just. We don't do any of that. It's all baking soda, lemon vinegar, Borax. That's it. Don't. Nothing else. So don't come in my house. Yerasimos 00:57:31.450 - 00:57:31.930 Yeah. Justin 00:57:32.090 - 00:57:35.090 If you stink, that's a great. Yerasimos 00:57:35.090 - 00:57:38.730 That's a great motto. You can make T shirts out of that, man. Don't come in my house if you stink. Justin 00:57:38.890 - 00:57:40.010 And take your shoes off. Yerasimos 00:57:40.090 - 00:57:40.570 Cool. Justin 00:57:40.890 - 00:57:54.710 Don't drag. Don't walk in the homeless that you just. You were at in Austin hanging out. You just think you could walk on the night. You're out of your mind. Hey, man, I'm. I'm militant in that way. Like, I. I Got into a point in my life where I just can't do it. Yerasimos 00:57:54.790 - 00:57:56.030 Yeah, man, you got to do your thing. Justin 00:57:56.030 - 00:57:57.150 I get it. Yeah. Yerasimos 00:57:57.150 - 00:58:01.750 I got a question. I brought it up earlier. Were you in New York during the COVID insanity? Justin 00:58:01.990 - 00:58:03.070 No, absolutely not. Yerasimos 00:58:03.070 - 00:58:05.990 Oh, you had left. Okay, gotcha. Justin 00:58:05.990 - 00:58:09.350 I had, I was in LA during the. That. Yerasimos 00:58:09.990 - 00:58:14.710 Okay, when did you leave? When you were like, la, I'm out, I'm going to Texas. Justin 00:58:16.060 - 00:58:24.540 Yeah, I mean, I left when, you know, everybody was yelling at me not to put my mat. That I had to put my mask on and I was in the park. Yerasimos 00:58:25.020 - 00:58:29.660 Yeah, that's why we moved to Topanga, dude. People yelling at me, yelling at me all day. Justin 00:58:30.220 - 00:59:04.400 I would like go to Air one and slip and slide, you know, through the whole aisles. But hey, you. And then they start chasing me and I do the shopping. Then they'd be like, you got to get out of here. You got to wear my, like one of those. And they're like, wait, wait, what are you talking about? And they're like, I would do the confused and then I would hand the bag to my wife. And then they didn't fuck with my wife because my wife's like, I'm pregnant. And then they got all confused, like, wait, what? She's like, don't talk to me, I'm pregnant. And they'd be like, no, but you. Okay, he's got to go. You know what I mean? Joel 00:59:04.720 - 00:59:05.200 Yeah. Justin 00:59:05.600 - 00:59:18.900 They didn't know how to deal with it. So I would, I would do the dip and dive and then give it to her. Then she would finish the shopping and then. And then they would, they wouldn't with her because she was just pregnant. Well, she wasn't. Yerasimos 00:59:18.900 - 00:59:19.980 I know, I know, but I'm just. Justin 00:59:19.980 - 00:59:57.060 She was just telling him, like, yeah, like, once again, they don't know how to deal with it. Like, so I, Yeah, it was, it was so much fear based stuff happening that it was unfortunate. You know, when you have kids, young kids, and they were. You were hearing parents saying, don't play with those kids. They're not wearing a mask. You'd be like, oh God, this is like. You guys. It was, you know, it was a. It was a fear virus. It was a mind virus. And it was really sad to see that a lot of people were so upset and so scared. Yerasimos 00:59:58.100 - 01:00:29.780 Yeah, seemed like the, the art community, you know, was co opted in a lot of ways by art. I mean, like, even just like people that identified more as like a certain political party on the left, it just, they just got in line you know, I think about a lot of old actor friends and in New York, you know, it was just getting, getting sucked into the ideology of, of being being seen as a good person. That just like you said, man, Watiko, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's the mind virus that kind of takes over. Justin 01:00:29.780 - 01:01:08.920 And well, it was also like the hip hop world. You had a lot of people in hip hop who were like campaigning for trillion dollar companies. And you were like, but you're supposed to be against the grain. We're supposed to be fight the power. We're supposed to be like, let's not believe the, like, let's, you know, we're, we're critically minded. We want to be critical thinkers. So I think that was very upsetting to see how many people weren't necessarily thinking critically. They were thinking fear based. Joel 01:01:09.560 - 01:01:25.240 Yeah. What is, what is like true rebellion to you, you know, when it comes to arts? Because even this word, even this, this core vibe of rebellion has become distorted into all these other things. Justin 01:01:27.550 - 01:03:35.500 You know, I, I think rebellion is doing what you want to do against everybody telling you you can't do it. But there's different dimensions of that, right? Like, so I felt pretty rebellious when I was painting hip hop imagery back in, you know, 2001, when I painted the DJ, because everybody who was at, in, in that world was like, you can't do that. That's impossible. Don't do that. That's dumb. In fact, you, it's, you know, like negative and so many different dimensions of it. But now it's so normal. It's like, oh yeah, you should do that. That's great. Like, so what was once rebellious is now commonplace. And that would be the same thing. If you look historically for impressionism. When the impressionists first had their first show, Monet, Degas, Manet, Pissaro, Lautrec, people freaked out. They were like running in the streets. There was fights, it was chaos, it was wild. Now it's just bathroom art hanging at museum and galleries all over the world. Very normal. Same with, same with, you know, I mean, some of the, some of the artists during the Renaissance, just the Raphaelites, I mean, this was stuff that was so wild to people, right? The naked body and all of that, it was just, it was just different. So not just because you're doing modern art, you're not rebelling. Like, that's Dolph, that's all garbage nonsense. Like the, the stuff that we're seeing a lot now is just, it's just, how do you get more esoteric and crazy. There's a lot of, you know, naked people wrapping themselves in bubble wrap. And, I mean, I've seen it all. Like, we've seen all the. You know, all my videos that I put up. You know, like, the woman hitting the butter with her microphone or whatever it is. It's just. Yerasimos 01:03:35.580 - 01:03:39.750 Yeah, but wasn't the banana paint taped on the wall? Was this viral? Joel 01:03:40.630 - 01:03:41.030 It's. Justin 01:03:41.030 - 01:04:39.680 I mean, there's all. It's all just crazy silliness. So, yeah, you know, Banksy. I think Banksy had a good run at. I think. I think that was a good moment when he went to the. The Tate and he hung his art on the wall. And then people started looking at his art because that was a good rebellious moment. Because people were like, oh, that's art. Because it's contextually in the museum. Right. So therefore it's art. So everything we realized from that was contextual. And then there's a lot of funny videos of, like, people leaving their socks. And I've done this myself. Like, and then everyone's looking at it like, oh, my God, that's so cool. What a cool installation. So people start to project, oh, this is about relaxing, taking. You know, this is dog in the middle of a hallway. They. It's just all. It's not rebelliousness. Joel 01:04:39.760 - 01:04:40.640 Yeah, that's right. Justin 01:04:41.120 - 01:04:45.640 There's no. I don't know what rebelliousness is. I could say graffiti. Joel 01:04:45.640 - 01:05:15.930 Groundbreaking. It's like what I'm gathering is, like, something that breaks ground, that isn't accepted in the beginning, but then over time shifts the culture. And in some ways, like, I think of, like, an artist like Kanye, like, when he dropped, like, 808 and heartbreak or Jesus, and everyone's like, you can. You're a hip hop artist. You can't be singing. You can't be making this style music. And then all of a sudden, the entire culture shifts in his directions. Like, at the time, it was like, what the fuck is this? Then over time, it becomes, oh, my God, we're all. We all want to do this. Yeah. Justin 01:05:15.930 - 01:06:07.340 And I think Kanye is a great example because he's so ahead of his time. You know, like, whatever you think of, Kanye's nuts, crazy, you know, racist, anti semitic. He's. He's so ahead of his time artistically. The way he dresses, the way he produces, the way he. The way he has shows. I mean, he's. He's such a visionary. And I would say the same with, you know, Pharrell. And I would say the same with you know, the way Timberland produces and. But now it's all, oh, yeah, cool. Like a lot of people do it because they all learn from them. Yeah, you know, I, I did hip hop art. People weren't doing any hip hop art. Yeah, but that's a 250 million dollar industry that I opened up, that industry. So it's wild, man. But yeah, you're right. Joel 01:06:07.420 - 01:06:33.540 I think another way I'd put it is like the willingness to follow your authentic interests despite what the culture at the time might say, you know, so like, if, even if, like you're, you're a successful artist, like, instead of just making the same record, which you know is going to get numbers again and do the money, whatever it might be, if that isn't your genuine interest and you want to shift directions, even though it might not be economically beneficial at the moment, like that's, that's an act of rebellion. Justin 01:06:35.060 - 01:07:53.530 Absolutely. And you got to keep it real. You got it. Like, if, if it's authentic in every way. Yeah, that's an act. That is an act of rebellion. I mean, I, it's hard to think about being rebellious in this time like that. Unless, you know, you're, I mean, break dancing was. It feels like the name, the, the word is reserved for kids, you know, because kids have nothing to lose. And so it's you. It's risky for adults to be rebellious. It was risky to do things that are not status quo. Right. It was risky to be. You were rebellious when you weren't wearing a mask in la. And how does that sound now? Are you rebellious wearing a mask in la? Nobody. Course not. You're just walking down the street. But I, that, that's the kind of rebellion that is interesting for me is, is thinking critically, thinking outside the box, which to me is not rebellious. Right. It's smart, it's authentic. It's pragmatic too. Joel 01:07:53.770 - 01:07:54.330 Yeah. Justin 01:07:54.810 - 01:08:06.360 Like, am I rebellious because I'm not using Tide? Like, no, I'm, I'm pretty smart. Okay. But people look at you like, oh my God, that's crazy. Yerasimos 01:08:06.360 - 01:08:09.560 You're, you're, you're making your own laundry detergent. Justin 01:08:09.800 - 01:08:39.100 Yeah, like, that's wild to people. Like, that's just wild. Like, you don't do that. Yo, Boo, you're crazy. And you're so. No, I'm just, you know, so I think it, it's relative to the context, but I look at like, you know, I mean, I don't know if it's rebellious, but like some of the Parkour dudes or the Base jumper. Is that rebellious or is that just. I mean, I don't know. Is that just crazy? Joel 01:08:40.540 - 01:08:41.260 Check us. Yerasimos 01:08:42.140 - 01:08:44.300 Yeah, some of that shit's crazy to me. Justin 01:08:44.460 - 01:09:09.230 You know me. It is. And. But the b boying now that's happening with these kids, they're just. It's not rebellious, but it, it's just, it's so good. It's such a high level. Things have changed so much. Yeah, but I think, I think that like Mark Andre LeClaire was rebellious in his own way. The. The free solo climber. Yerasimos 01:09:09.230 - 01:09:09.430 And. Justin 01:09:09.430 - 01:09:13.830 Oh, yeah, some of those people, they're. They're kind of in their own way. Joel 01:09:13.990 - 01:09:32.600 I don't know when you, when you can like just. There's no doubt that someone is just completely enamored by a spirit or a calling. They're possessed by it. Where it's like, I just, I just have to follow through with this. I don't know why, but I have to follow through with this. And that's just oozing through every aspect of the act. Justin 01:09:33.160 - 01:09:38.200 Yes. And I think that's. Is that rebellious or is that just. Joel 01:09:38.280 - 01:09:47.250 Yeah, I mean, that's right. I think, I think what we're finding here is this connection between real rebellion and authenticity. Like they can't really be separated. Justin 01:09:47.570 - 01:10:43.060 And I like what you mean. I like what, how you say that. Because it feels like no matter what, no matter how many people say no, you're just following your true authentic self. As long as you're not delusional. You know, like Ray Gun, Roy Gun's a good example of that. Like, no matter what. Ray Gun, the breakdown, your country. You brought her, the Australian break dancer. She was, she was following what she thought because of her. Her and her delusional partner. She fell. She was avant garde. She was breaking the mold. But. And she was following. Everything about her was rebellious and authentic. But the reality is she was horrible because she was delusional. She was, she was almost psychotically delusional. And that, that kind of following, the spirit of that was. Is. Joel 01:10:43.060 - 01:10:51.980 Yeah, but that was her being enabled by the sociopolitical culture in Australia as well. Like, no one along the way until the Olympics was like, what the fuck are you doing? Justin 01:10:52.220 - 01:10:59.910 Yeah, serious. Why were there no Australians going, what are you doing? This is insane. Joel 01:11:00.230 - 01:11:01.830 You're not. Yeah. Justin 01:11:01.830 - 01:11:03.430 You got to stop it immediately. Yerasimos 01:11:03.670 - 01:11:04.070 Yeah. Justin 01:11:04.070 - 01:11:07.510 What? Like, I. I don't get that. Because in New York. Yerasimos 01:11:07.990 - 01:11:08.710 Oh, yeah. Justin 01:11:08.870 - 01:11:12.470 Been. She would have been like, it would have never happened. Yerasimos 01:11:14.070 - 01:11:16.070 She would have been shamed hard day one. Joel 01:11:16.070 - 01:11:16.430 Yeah. Justin 01:11:16.430 - 01:11:34.830 No, that you, like, you're you're garbage. You're trash. Get out of here. Trash. But some. No one, you know, here for the truth. No one told her no, stop. Didn't mean that she couldn't do it. Yeah, but certainly you are not going to be representing Australia at the olympics. That is 100% for sure. Yerasimos 01:11:34.990 - 01:12:03.530 It's kind of like standing between and holding a healthy level of connection to both rationality and irrationality, you know, like this, this duality where it's just like what we're talking about before is like I'm possessed by this thing, this talent, this thing I need to do that is a little crazy and let me have the ability to have a certain level of self awareness and self assessment where there is some, you know, rationality to it as well, if you know what I mean. Justin 01:12:03.850 - 01:12:16.890 Yeah. Have friends around you. This is why it's good to, you know, have friends around you. Do not be misled by people who are yes men. Yerasimos 01:12:17.200 - 01:12:17.440 Yeah. Justin 01:12:17.440 - 01:13:00.970 You know, people who keep it real. And that's why I go back to like my friend Ruben, one of the greatest painters of all time. He'll tell you, that's not, that's not really at the level. Or my wife who's like, yeah, like I was doing the Mohawk painting and she was like, that, that guy doesn't look like a Mohawk, looks like an Italian guy. And I was like, what are you talking about? You know, and you're. Your own self is fighting because you put in so much work. And she's like, you need to redo that. And you're like, oh my God, what are you talking. That, that's like a day's worth of work or whatever. And so like. But then you realize, oh, she's right. Like, it's so you, you need a community of people who,. Joel 01:13:03.290 - 01:13:07.050 In a small circle, you genuinely. Whose respect you genuinely value. Justin 01:13:07.610 - 01:13:21.930 Yeah. Because there's a lot of, A lot of Hollywood people. I've seen it, been there, done that. A lot of people telling you, oh, that's good. Oh, that's amazing. Oh, you're great. That, that, that's not good. That makes you weak. You know, you need people who are. Joel 01:13:21.930 - 01:13:30.210 Yeah. I'm curious how you navigate this self, this concept with your kids when they bring to you what they're doing. Justin 01:13:30.370 - 01:13:34.770 They, they, they, they bring it, they, they're kids. Joel 01:13:35.570 - 01:13:45.680 What about with what they're creating? How do you hold the line with what they're creating? I don't know how old your kids are, but, you know, every drawing, amazing, honey, is every drawing the best Thing. Justin 01:13:46.160 - 01:14:45.240 No, no, I'm not like one of those. I'm not a sucker, you know, I'm like, I have a 21 year old, an 8 year old and a 3 year old. Yep, almost 8, almost 3. So I have a different. It's a. And I, I don't live with a 21 year old, so they're so young that. Yeah, it's not like, oh my God, everything you do is incredible. But, you know, my 8 year old is a wonderful piano player. She can read music and she's starting to compose her own. Like, I'm hearing her play Beethoven and Chopin and it's crazy, like, to me. So for me, I'm like, damn, that's really, really good. That doesn't mean like, oh, you were off key there. And I'll say you were off key. I think you got to be real. Yeah, but I'm not also like, you know, my wife's good in terms of being on her, but she's not like a tiger mom, where it's like you have to practice eight hours a day. That's it. No, no, no, no excuse. You cannot. You know, like there's, there's that. Yerasimos 01:14:45.640 - 01:14:46.200 Yeah. Justin 01:14:46.760 - 01:15:53.970 Tiger mom. So, you know, but, but, but at the same time, those, those are the people who become great. Oftentimes the people who have been, you know, like whiplash. Oh, no, Michael Jackson's up there. We all know that's a terrible situation. But without his dad, without Joe, is there Michael that he was. We would have no Michael Jackson. We wouldn't. Michael Jackson was a prodigy and he was drilled. It was, it was horrible for this kid to be so drilled like that. But he gave the world the greatest music and the greatest, the greatest everything. He's the greatest performer we've ever had. But if, but if his dad wasn't so evil, would we have that? I mean, it's like this, right? Like, we would. The world wouldn't have experienced Michael Jackson and his true beauty if Joe Jackson wasn't such an evil piece of. Joel 01:15:55.890 - 01:16:00.690 It's interesting. It's interesting. And not many people can hold that, hold those realities. Justin 01:16:01.250 - 01:17:06.430 That's real, bro. Like, and that's true with artists sometimes. That's true with musicians, businessmen, with business people who create. I mean, you got some, some. And, and then sometimes it backfires. Like, you know, like, I've seen it backfire. Like I've grown up with people who are just such incredible musicians and. But they were so drilled that they're like, I'm over it. I'm not doing it anymore. I'm done. You know, you're like, what are you talking about? You're doing constantly. You was doing the Philharmonic when you were like 12. Your prodigy. No, I'm done. You know, so it could go that way and it could go the other way or so I've seen it all. There's no one path. There's multiple paths. But I thought Michael Jackson was a good example, right? Because like, he was definitely like, you would never want any kid to have experienced those atrocities. That's just insane to think about a child who had to do that, who had to go through that. But then the world would never have seen, you know, such, such beauty. Yerasimos 01:17:07.210 - 01:17:26.650 Yeah, we talked about this. I think another episode with this whole idea of just like, oh, everyone needs to heal 100 before they do a thing. And it's like, well, we have these amazing people in the world that created things, that invented things that maybe that came out of the fact that their dad beat them, you know, or they come from a broken home. And so it's like, it's. Joel 01:17:27.210 - 01:17:28.490 They came from like a communist country. Justin 01:17:28.490 - 01:18:31.690 Some of the most up people are some of the most creative people. That's just the truth. Especially with like artists or comics. Like plenty of my artist friends who have a normal life, you know, and some of the people who have the most normal lives, you know, are some of the most boring too. That doesn't mean that, you know, I, I mean it, it has to do with your soul. And I'm sure that there's been people with really normal, great childhoods who are great artists. I don't know, I don't know who they are personally. My childhood was totally up, but I was able to channel and that. And I think that's why, I think that's the answer is that I had a vehicle to plug my creativity into my trauma into. And that's creativity. That's drawing, that's painting, that's. That's being a creative person. I needed that channel to express myself. Otherwise, you know, I was going to be, you know, not just more up. Joel 01:18:33.130 - 01:18:56.970 Yeah, man. Because it's, it's in the, the art comes in response to like an ailments, you know, and then the depth and digging to a level where person hasn't dug before. It's, it's like a self healing kind of thing which we use expressionally out in the world. So at the same time, I'm sure there are some artists who had great. Justin 01:18:56.970 - 01:19:22.240 Childhoods who I, I heard this from a great writer in Hollywood once and he said, what's the difference between a great writer and a shitty writer? And he says a shitty writer had a great childhood. And the great writers have horrible childhoods. That's what he told me. And I thought that was like, huh, you know, that could be true. Joel 01:19:23.280 - 01:19:23.640 Yeah. Justin 01:19:23.640 - 01:20:19.720 And I'm not. I want to give my kid a great childhood, but I certainly didn't have one. You know, there was a lot of crazy just, just the way it was. And that is probably why most of my characters in my paintings look suspicious and they're looking over their back. You know, they're always kind of like, you know what I mean? There's a, there's a moment of tension in these people's faces, even though they could be lost in the moment of creativity. The B boy, the dj, the emcee, these archetypes that I paint, they're in that moment, but when they're out of that moment, they're looking over their back. There's anxiety in the air. And I think that that's my projection of my life and my childhood. Joel 01:20:19.720 - 01:20:20.280 Yeah. Justin 01:20:20.360 - 01:20:27.480 Growing up in New York City during the time that I did, you know, because it was a different. It was a different kind of world. Joel 01:20:27.960 - 01:21:12.570 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think whatever it is, you have to be willing to go on an individual journey at some point in time to like face that tension and to learn something real and to not have dependency and to be out in the wilderness or in the arena by yourself. Like, that's where ultimately you. The ground is bred for something great to come from, something real to come from, something authentic to come from, you know? So, like, I don't want people who had like great childhoods. I could never be an artist. I could never be. You know, like there's inspiration and inspiration comes from the hero's journey and that hero's journey comes in different, different layers and different contexts throughout one's life. Justin 01:21:14.650 - 01:21:15.370 Yeah, I agree. Yerasimos 01:21:15.610 - 01:21:16.090 Yeah. Justin 01:21:16.490 - 01:22:01.750 I mean, I think you could have a great childhood and be great artists. I'm just saying. I personally don't know. All my friends who are great have some pretty wonky childhoods. But I'm sure there are many children who have great childhoods who become great artists in different ways. And, you know, but I think it's the darkness that if you're able to go down into the darkness of your, your own stuff, then you can get to the lightness. And sometimes that comes in different ways too. Like, you know, fasting. Right. Like I did a six day water fast, which was the most I've ever done, but, like, Jesus, that was something about that. That was a journey that'll bring you. Yerasimos 01:22:01.750 - 01:22:03.390 To some deep places within yourself. Justin 01:22:03.710 - 01:22:19.790 Yeah. And I've never done, like, Ayahuasca Vogue or, you know, DMT or anything, but, you know, I think there's. There's ways to get to places in different ways. Joel 01:22:20.110 - 01:22:34.250 Definitely, man. And also, it's like when the muse comes to visit, who the knows and who the cares why she's visiting or where she came from, it's just the fact that she's there and I'm feeling something and I can't avoid her, you know? Justin 01:22:39.450 - 01:22:41.210 I like that. Yeah. Joel 01:22:42.170 - 01:22:59.110 I'm curious, like, what are some of, like, the other unique ways in which inspiration comes to you? Like, obviously, you're in. You're inspired by the Mohawk story and by what you observed in hip hop culture. Like, what are some of the other ways in which inspiration hits you? And it's like, I just have to do something with this. Justin 01:23:00.310 - 01:23:51.560 You know, I always say what Picasso said, which is, inspiration exists, but it has to find you working. Like, I oftentimes I'm not inspired. I'm just sitting around going, this is. This is such a monumental task ahead of me. And it's metaphorical, right. Because I'm literally staring at a blank canvas and I'm like, I've been doing that. This thing my whole life, but where do I start? You know? Like, here we go again. I just finished this whole journey of this whole painting, and now I got to do this whole thing again and be inspired by it. Yeah. And so I just work it. I work through it. And working through it, oftentimes the pain. That's where I find inspiration is in the pain of not being inspired. Joel 01:23:53.240 - 01:23:53.720 Yeah. Justin 01:23:55.400 - 01:24:14.290 I hate this. I can't do this. I don't want to go through this again. And then I just gotta do it. Right. It's kind of like working out where I don't want to do it, I can't do it. It's just so painful. But then you do it, and eventually, as you do it a lot, then you're in a flow, then you become addicted to it. Joel 01:24:14.450 - 01:24:14.930 Yeah. Justin 01:24:14.930 - 01:24:18.090 You know, you want. Can't wait to get back to it, you know? Yerasimos 01:24:18.090 - 01:24:18.410 Yeah. Justin 01:24:18.410 - 01:24:21.090 So, yeah. Joel 01:24:21.490 - 01:24:36.290 Reminds me of, like, Stephen Pressfield's War of Art, you know, and like, facing resistance. Anytime we go to do something, we're going to face resistance. And even I think Jerry Seinfeld has great commentary. He's like, no one has writer's block. That's not a real thing. You're just lazy. Justin 01:24:36.530 - 01:25:00.510 Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I, I agree with that. I think you're just lazy. I hear that all the time from everybody sends me dms, you know, how do you, how do you stay inspired or. Yeah, what you need to do to find inspiration. And I had a story. I went to school with this girl. Not going to mention her name, Sandra. She. Joel 01:25:02.430 - 01:25:03.230 Those Kage. Justin 01:25:03.560 - 01:26:38.629 But anyway, she. When she graduated and see her for a while and I was like, where were you? She said, I. I went back to, to China to find my roots. And I decided that that's how I had to be as an artist. I had to find my roots. And I said, have you created anything? No, not yet. I realized I had to go to Paris. I said, oh, then what happened in Paris? Well, I went to the Dorsay and to the Louvre and to the Picasso Museum and Monet's house. It just, it was just. But then I realized that wasn't the right journey. So I went over to Holland to see Rembrandt and the Hague Museum in Vermeer. And did that inspire you? No. And then I realized it's all you. You can go off on your own to Europe, in China and every museum in the world and journey wherever the you think you're going to go. But the reality is it's all in here. It's right in here. Like, you could have just sat in your Burbank apartment and figured the out by doing it, because whatever is out there in the world and you could get inspired, by the way. But she, to me, that was a great example of like, she went everywhere and she still wasn't doing it because it wasn't out there. Yep. Right. So like, and she's, she's lucky to be able to do all that. Joel 01:26:39.350 - 01:26:39.990 Yeah, man. Justin 01:26:40.950 - 01:26:41.510 Perfect. Joel 01:26:42.470 - 01:26:57.890 Perfect. Note to end this on. Really appreciate your time, man. Appreciate your realness, who you are, the art that you've put out into the world and how you continue to, to move forward. In closing, man, how would you like to, you know, engage our audience? How can people connect with you, find you, support you? Justin 01:26:58.770 - 01:27:09.650 Just hit me at. On Instagram at Justin Bua Bua. Or on my website. Justin Bu. I'm coming out with my book of Hip Hop. Joel 01:27:09.890 - 01:27:10.610 Oh, Matt. Justin 01:27:10.930 - 01:27:13.250 Next week. Been working on it for 30 years. Yerasimos 01:27:13.410 - 01:27:14.770 Oh, that's great. Justin 01:27:14.930 - 01:27:30.580 389 Pages, 150 paintings, 700 drawings, 100 essays. Justin Bua version. It's called the Book of Hip Hop. Justin Bua version. Wow. It's really, really great. And it's gonna be fun. Joel 01:27:31.140 - 01:27:39.700 Epic, man. Epic. Is there any closing words that are coming to you, like to. To leave any, you know, budding artists that might be listening to this with. Justin 01:27:41.060 - 01:28:10.240 Yeah, don't. You know, I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier, which is just be truthful. Do your. Be authentic and get good at drawing. Don't skip the basics. Get good at drawing so you could articulate yourself more eloquently and then tell your story through that. Right. Like, don't tell someone else's story. Don't follow the trends because you could be the trend that other people follow. Joel 01:28:10.720 - 01:28:11.280 Yeah. Justin 01:28:11.360 - 01:28:15.270 So just. That's keeping it authentic, right? Joel 01:28:16.150 - 01:28:16.630 Yeah. Justin 01:28:16.630 - 01:28:33.110 You're here for the truth. That's the truth. Your truth is your art, your vision. So what's your truth? My truth is from where I'm from, what I experienced, that's what I would tell a young artist. But get good enough to be able to express that. Joel 01:28:33.990 - 01:28:38.950 Beautiful. Thanks so much once again, man. Everyone else, thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. Justin 01:28:39.270 - 01:28:40.310 My God. Peace.