Michael Tsarion Unslaved

[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 0:07) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 3] (0:11 - 0:44) All right, everybody, welcome to episode 78 of Here for the Truth podcast. With us here today, we have Michael Tasarian. Now, none of what you see or hear would be possible without his life and work. Yerasimos and I first connected through his podcast, Unslaved, hosted with David Whitehead. He's, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many others, one of the most prominent thinkers and researchers alive today. And when we say we stand on the shoulders of giants, Michael's certainly the key person that we're referring to. And it's simply such a pleasure to have you here today, Michael. Thanks for being here. [Speaker 1] (0:45 - 0:48) Thanks, guys. It's great to see you. And again, thanks for the invitation. [Speaker 2] (0:50 - 1:05) Yeah, man, definitely. Thank you so much. And I echo what Joel said. You know, you've had a major influence on my life. And I don't think I've been taking the path in the last, you know, few years without the work that you've done and the knowledge that you've shared. So, man, just so much love and so much respect. So thank you. [Speaker 1] (1:06 - 1:07) Thank you. Thank you. [Speaker 2] (1:07 - 1:26) I want us to start off, you know, just get a little bit into your hero's journey and your major rites of passage. You know, you've been on this researching, independent researching journey for 30, 40 years, maybe longer. And so I'd love to just hear a little bit about that. The main things that kind of inspired you to to, you know, take the road less traveled. [Speaker 1] (1:28 - 4:56) That's a really endless subject, actually, because I'm still on it. You know what I mean? We're all on it together. It's really hard to pinpoint one particular thing, but of course, being exposed to the New Age movement and similar paths. Some of these were in the East as well. Back in the 70s and then through the 80s, I think might have had a big effect because it just told me what wasn't. Right. I know being really committed. I mean, I wasn't just an outsider. You know, you get into it like we all do. We think this is it. And then you slowly, I don't know, have this meter for bullshit. So and charlatanism. And my grandfather was a very, very prominent teacher in L.A. back in the 70s and 80s and being exposed to him. But by about 81, 82, and then meeting him and being part of his movement in L.A. very, very quickly, I found out he's a fucking charlatan, you know, and I think that had. It wasn't a downer, it was just like a recognition. And then that started to happen with a lot of people, you know, other than he all his movement, the extended New Age peoples, I never met one. I mean, Paul Solomon, you know, is the person I have respect for. He is a big, major figure in the New Age movement. He's but the only one that is worthy of respect. Everybody else failed the test, so to speak, you know, at least it wasn't for me. Right. So when you know what you don't want and when you see through the lie, it's really, really, really important. It's really good. It's helpful because then when you come upon the. Something that's more wholesome, and I luckily did. Other studies that have been doing in the late 70s through the 80s, you know, those are things that were just like hobbies, almost Irish mythology. Etymology was a big one, symbolism and subliminal. So, you know, you guys know that I'm big time into, you know, manipulative. The manipulation of symbolism, that was a personal hobby. Couldn't find anybody else interested in it. But but as the other things washed away and I don't want to deal with that anymore, you know, it's sort of honed. And then these other things sort of came a little bit more embossed. And then when I got I've been three times to America and on the third trip in 90, 80, late 89, I came across the work. It was this desert storm. And so I came across the work of several people who had been critiquing America's role on sort of a geopolitical level, basically the conspiracy material. People like Reverend Jack Moore, Ralph Epperson, Norm Davis. And others, mostly Christian guys, but I love that what they were doing. And then that moved on to people like G. Edward Griffin. And a whole host of other people, Ralph Epperson, Stan Monteith. And I'm just devouring this stuff. So that's pretty much the probably the most the most accurate statement of how I got started, because knowing absolutely nothing, but having this kind of mind that didn't trust what the media said, you know, so there are other threads, but that one, that one really is good to go. And it's just been then, you know, downhill from there on, right, you know, but you just, this thing takes you. I believe you may, there's been no will involved. This has just been hit by an avalanche and, you know, downhill into all of this from there on, you know, what the hell. [Speaker 2] (4:57 - 4:59) Michael, how many books have you read in your life? [Speaker 1] (5:01 - 9:23) Well, I'm always reading because right now I'm reading about 25 books. I mean, you just can't get through shit. Everything you think you're getting through it, right, then there's a whole heap of more. And a lot of it is contemporary, you know, to keep up to date. And then a lot I dig into the past to have, these are like two Masonic pillars in my life, you know, what the great masters of the past have said, but there's some really good writings out there. You know, I like Douglas Murray. I like Charles Murray. I like Ann Coulter, you know what I mean? Dinesh D'Souza, you know, I'm keeping up to speed with everything that's out there. You know, just loads, because I've got projects as well that I need to research, and I like my research to be cutting edge, dip into the histories of the past, some fine stuff. But there's also fine stuff being written now on the Second World War, on globalism, on Russia, on America. I'm a very, very curious person. So if you're very curious, you'll want to read. And then another thing is, you know, that when you read, and especially if you read sort of highbrow people, they make citations themselves, they've read studies that you may never come across. So, and you can use that, you know, you can say, Oh, my God, I never, Jesus, there's a study here about suicide, or about child abuse, or, you know, female psychology, whatever it may be, you know, and they might cite. And remember, this doesn't mean that they all have my insight. But I might say, Oh, how could you, how could you miss that? That's, that's a really incredible study. And then you can cite those or footnote those in your own work, if you want to keep it sharp, and non repetitive, and up to date, also up to speed with what's happening right now. So yeah, a lot of books, I've always been a reader. And it to me is a very valuable, valuable process, because there's really some really great thought I'm reading, reading on Abraham Lincoln, see that I've all through my career, I've had issues and problems with certain people that have been unresolved. And in my life right now, I can say that a very great deal 90% of all the x factors and questions I've had on my life have been answered by these Ralph Ellis's, you know, wherever I went in the deep search to get answers to these questions that I had, it's mostly been done, but it's never wholly done. There's always new questions, but I want to write that, you know, the story of Teddy Roosevelt, or the study of Abraham Lincoln, you know, that question about his, or Albert Pike, or, you know, somebody else. And so there's always something to go back to, to question, Napoleon, you know, and so on. There's always look at Churchill, you know, so there's always going to be unfilled, you know, until you've until in. So the other thing I was going to say about reading is that in life, you can make this you have one short life to live and a lot of things to know. Well, you can you can fix that by when you have when you have an interest. Your job is really to find the greatest minds who've already spoken on it. And it might now that seems like an overwhelming job, but it's actually not because I said the best minds. Well, surely, surely, those are only a few. I mean, everybody listening to me now knows. Oh, that's not hundreds. I said the best minds. Well, you're down to two people. You're down to four people. So find them. If it was psychology, philosophy, whatever, right, whatever you're into, there's only going to be a handful of the people who had the deepest grasp on the truth. And even they didn't have it in total, but at least find those people. And once you've done that, your job is actually easier. So when somebody sees the overwhelmingness of all the study of reading books and they get all intimidated. Yeah, but it's actually easier than you think because there's only a handful of people which in a couple of months you could download and get the whole story about it. You know what I mean? If you knew like Judaism. Yeah. Well, this guy called John Leger, whoever heard of him? Yeah. Well, he'll nail it for you. And Tony Bushby, you know, I can name them. That's why I've specialized in that. I can give you four names on any subject you can tell me. And that's it. You'll have. The postgraduate understanding enough to floor people who even come from the academia. So it's not just reading, it's reading the finest minds who spoke about that subject and knowing having the discernment to not read the rest of the trash and all the lies and all the bunk that's coming out of academia for the most part. [Speaker 2] (9:24 - 9:43) Yeah, man. I mean, I love that you said that it's just a never ending journey. And even for me, for someone who got into the truth, this truth movement through the health field, first and foremost, I mean, just being exposed to thinkers like Dr. Homer, you know, within the last 15, the last the last year and a half, I'm like, what? Are you kidding me? I didn't know this is a thing. [Speaker 1] (9:46 - 10:51) It's look at what's out there. That is a field in which again, it applies what I said, find the hummers, find the Gerson's find the rush, right? Yeah. Find the Grotex. It's not endless. People think or they make themselves believe it. Oh, I can't learn all of that. Yeah. Yes, you can. But it's basic curiosity. You know, you have to follow up your curiosity and always have these questions. So that's what animates any search that I was on. Remember, for me, all of this was hobby. It's a big, big difference to go out, you know, and start doing it. That was never a plan that all happened accidentally. You know, all of these subjects were personal hobbies. And I would have been doing exactly what I'm doing today, getting crates of books delivered to my door, you know, and everybody knew me as the horror of the of the village, stay away from him, you know, and I've been just doing it in my how the hell this happened, or to have websites or any any more public notoriety is just inexplicable to me. I have no idea what happened. And it didn't happen by any will on my part whatsoever. [Speaker 3] (10:53 - 10:58) That's incredible. Was there a moment where you were like, I'm going to make a vocation out of this? [Speaker 1] (10:59 - 12:46) No, no, no, it was all various incidents. And they're also unbelievable that I'm still trying to work it out. So trying to communicate it. It sounds so comedic, so idiotic. So, huh, you know, when I started the tarot, the divination, you know, that led to the mystery school, none of that was planned either. Because the last thing on my mind, in fact, it's the opposite of what you said, I had a deep antipathy to ever doing astrology readings or readings of any kind, even though I was good at the subject, I didn't want clients. I didn't want them in my house. I didn't want to have the time to dedicate didn't want to do classes, you have to be stark raving mad that never even crossed my mind until I was pushed into it, you know, at about, I think it was early 98. I did my first reading for a client. And oh, not just the stress of it, and all of that, but the actual not wanting to even do it. You know, it was all external things that happened that forced me and out of necessity. And Jesus, you know, if anybody asked me to do something different, you know, I would have drive a forklift truck, you know, I would have rather done it in the Bay Area than ever moved in. So it sounds strange, but it's true. No, there was never in fact, almost there's been, if anything, there's been a fight every single second of the day of how to overcome the desire to not want to do it. So yeah, it's been a struggle all the way through because my tendency is to not bother, you know, not do it, do other things, write music, whatever it may be, and study these things as a hobby, but somehow something else demands, you know, something other than that, and I just follow it dutifully, blindly. [Speaker 2] (12:50 - 13:22) I think it's just amazing. I mean, it's amazing hearing you say that, like every second of every day I have to fight the opposite. And yet you've written several books, you have like 15 websites, I'm just throwing that number out there, I don't know the exact number, you've written so many articles, you've created so much, so many presentations, hours long presentation, I mean, even the Age of Manipulation video that you created a long time ago based on a workshop you did is like 11 hours long, and you know, the Female Illuminati series, everything, and then to go date moment by moment, be like, oh, I don't want to do this, but then you still do it, it's just... [Speaker 1] (13:22 - 15:05) Yeah, don't ask me, and I've done it on shitty equipment and shitty environments, no help. You'd wonder why are you doing it then? So there's no answer to that. But that one, Age of Manipulation, the longer ones are done because when I started doing it, I found out that it's impossible to get the real things I want to talk about now that I have committed to it on short podcasts, especially over dial-up, you know, because I was working at this even before, you know, just about as Google videos came along, and people were uploading, I didn't personally upload, but other people uploaded them, and then later, you know, you get to do it yourself when the YouTube thing came along, but I realized that as you're about to express the thing that really matters, some guy's cutting you off or, you know, whatever, or not asking the right questions, or not even really into your work and any of that, so I went, oh my god, so the reason why these ones that came later are longer, more precise, is because I was aching for that, aching for, and just taking the risk that you could do, I was the first one to do anything more than three hours, let alone six, first one, go and check that, and I did it because these things, like in Origins and Oracles, or Age of Manipulation, which were one of my personal favorites, you do need that length to get the message across, there is absolutely no, it'll do damage, it will not do justice to the subject matter if you just chop it up and chop it up and chop it up, then to counterpoint that, we would do something that was a little bit more succinct, like, say, Architects of Control, right, but in general, in general, you know, that one was you're trying to cram everything into two hours, right, but normally I said, no, I'm the first one to make the decision, and I know a lot of people have emulated that, which is, no, no, no, do justice to the subject, take the fucking time, if it takes 10 hours, it takes 10 hours, and if people don't like it, that's their fucking loss. [Speaker 2] (15:06 - 15:23) Yeah, I think that's the thing, is like, even in today's times, like, people see something 10 hours, they're like, oh my god, I just want, like, a two-minute soundbite fucking video to tell me what the hell is happening, I don't have the bandwidth or the attention span to sit down for 10 hours, or even just even three hours over three days to watch something and digest something. [Speaker 1] (15:24 - 19:40) Yeah, that one was done over three months at a venue, and the venue was ready to, you know, report to the police, let me see, like I said, I don't want to get into it, but there's almost everything I've ever done, I've either been ripped off or it's been a struggle, and that one was done in a difficult situation at a theater in Gothenburg, you know, and it was a grueling three months, from March, April, and May, little sections of it were done, and then finally put together as one, so I actually really like the presentation personally, so it's okay, you know, but yeah, I just, I said, right, I'm not going to cram this information into three hours, there's no way, so, you know, it has a beginning, middle, and end, like a lot of the work that I do, and I just, I prefer that to this day, and had I been able to start from the beginning with that mode, I would have started from the beginning, but like you say, the sound bites and people's attention span demanded doing years, and years, and years of just podcasts, and often with people who are really not liking you, and not liking your information, but they, you know, whatever, they need a guest, or whatever, they've heard about you, or whatever, but at least it wasn't the right format to do, you know, these larger things, so that's all deliberate, that was all deliberate, because there is so much to this, to this information, I mean, that's a whole, that's a whole conversation, but I'm glad that, I'm glad it had a beginning, middle, and end, because don't you see, then, when you're finished with that, you can move on, then, to the other thing, if you do it complete, ha, there's a great moment of freedom at the end, because you go, great, that's done, I don't have to say much more about it, now I can go and tackle, right, you know, the Irish origins, or, you know, female psychology, or whatever it is, I'm free now, I've put it behind me, it's on the shelf, it's there for posterity, and you can completely clean the slate, and now I say, right, new canvas, new painting, wow, you know, and new colors, and new brush, and new light, to really tackle something brand, brand new, it's the only way that keeps you going, if you had to do the same thing, you know, there's people in this movement, who 30 years later, they're saying the same thing, I don't want to name any names, but it's completely stuck record, I'd say the vast majority, well, I've never been like that, I didn't even want to do the same conference twice, I didn't want to do the same talk twice, and the people at the conferences were expecting me to get up on stage year after year, and do the same thing, whether it was Atlantis, or what it was, I had to twist their arm to say, can we, can I please do something different next year, oh, no, don't think we can do that, no, you know, but luckily, one man did allow me, and it took him nearly six to nine months to decide, I finally get this phone call in Seattle, here, and saying, oh, yeah, remember, you said you wanted to do something, you know, on that, was it subversive symbolism? Yeah, yeah, because, okay, the trouble was, it was like, in 10, you know, the conference was coming up in less than a month, and I'm like, got nothing prepared. So I had to just stay up day and night, right, to get this, because this is a great opportunity, this is about one thing, but they called me so late, that the presentation, I think, you know, suffered from, it wasn't as good as it could have been, because I'm just chucking things in and clipping things out. And in those days, PowerPoint, you know, there wasn't enough images online. So it was a lot of photoshop, photocopying, and, you know, magazines, and looking into my collection, and having to go to storage, which wasn't in the same city, and dig out shit, you know, so and they're giving you a record, and then, then you're just down there, and you're wheeled up on stage, go. Yeah, I made it through. But again, this is, you know, this is a common story, where you're never given enough time to prepare the longer, the longer ones that have a deeper meaning, and there's always something left out, which is really sad, you know, and you have to pick it up later on, do something later on. So the whole concept of enslaved, everything I've done recently, has been again, to not have that happen. But try and get it in there as comprehensively as possible. So you can make the last statement, the last word, you know, and then and then leave it for a good period of time, while you delve into something unique. And equally brilliant. This is a strategy, it's all done strategically and by necessity. It's like a war, you know, it's like a sort of a war. The way I look at it is very, very battle strategy like, actually. [Speaker 3] (19:42 - 20:15) Yeah, it's, it's definitely liberating to finish something in its, in its entirety, and then be able to move on and leave, leave, leave it behind, not have it infiltrate your future thinking, research, etc. I completely agree. We mentioned earlier about finding like the four or five best minds on a subject, so to speak. But for someone new to this, how does someone develop that discernment to be drawn to the best of the best and not find themselves waylaid by all the rubbish that's out there on various subjects? Like what's the discernment, so to speak? [Speaker 1] (20:16 - 26:36) It's this is where it becomes your own intuition. This is where I'm a personalist. And I'm always trying to talk about the true state of individualism. And it's, you know, you guys know this anyway. And that's that's one of the features that not a lot of people are going to do it. The simple answer is it that's where the sheep are separated from the goats. Obviously, you can train yourself, you can just look up on Encyclopedia, who's the expert, who are the philosophers, you know, and then check them out. You can do that by trial and error. But there's also some little meter of intuition. Intuition is a very interesting thing in general. A lot of people mistake what it is. They think it's a mystical quality. It's not. When Jung divided the psyche into four, and intuition is one of those parts. If you read his analysis of intuition, he says they're all in, they're all up in Wall Street. You know, it's a nice way to throw a bucket of water on people who think, oh, I'm into I'm intuitive type. And then they equate intuition with some, whoo, you know, really, like, like, it's a special trait of a sage. No, Jung clearly says the most intuitive people in our society are over there on Wall Street. They're brokers and people like that. Right. Therefore, what he's really trying to say is intuition is something of a very workaday, very valuable thing. If we say emotion, if we say intellect, and we say sensation, we have a clear understanding what that means. But intuition gets a little foggy, but it shouldn't be. Intuition is the means by which that which you see in the world leads you to intuit there's something behind it. But everybody does that. Science does that. Right. We are given, see, in order to prove another world or another to prove an underlying reality that may be behind the world, emotion isn't going to do that. Intellect plays a role, but doesn't necessarily have that as its top mandate. And certainly sensation is the furthest away. Sensation just accepts what's here in front of us. But intuition says, if I see this phenomena, and I take it in a certain way, I maybe want to know where it came from or what's really behind it from the scene. That's why it's not mystical. Or it's mystical with all caps. Intuition is not jumping over this world to find the reality. It's looking at this world. It's looking at what everybody sees and saying, there's something wrong here, like psychology itself, types. You keep meeting these people, but your intuition says, I keep seeing similar traits in certain people. And then you get into typology. I think they're all of the same type. They look different, and that's intuition. Looking at millions of people, meeting lots of people, and then getting the theory, say, of typology, that there's something about orientations and things like that, that will be an act of intuition. Now, the person who's developed their intuition will, to answer your question, have that ability, or those who are just born with a naturally strong intuition. I remember back in the 80s, maybe, let's just say 83, 84, is when I first saw the movie Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. And she actually scripted it and was part of the making of it, and was right there on the sets. And the last speech in the film was, at that time, the longest speech ever recorded in film history. And it wasn't changed. She wouldn't allow one word to be changed of this final speech. So I wrote it down, kept it as a piece of paper, and we used to walk around with this as a teenager, right? And read it and read it. Okay, then when I got to the States, after that 89 period, went to a bookstore, and to answer your question, it was filing through different books, and I saw this Ayn Rand book, I think it was, you know, Who Needs Philosophy? Or one of the others. Now, what told me to buy it? Actually, nothing except intuition. I'd heard the name, and somebody else had mentioned that she was also a novelist. But when I saw the thickness of Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead, I just went, no way, right? I don't like fiction too much anyway, except, you know, certain exceptions. But there's no way I was going to read a fictional story that thick. It's too much waste of my time, I thought. But when I saw her philosophy books that, you know, could be read in much shorter time, those appealed to me. But when I was opening them, something had to, you know, reading a few pieces, you know, this is in Palo Alto, right? So you're reading a few paragraphs, you know, okay, and then I go, Oh, I have to have this. This is great, you know, or maybe you go and you come back and buy it or something, then you buy more, you know? Yeah, I would look back and say, it's something's resonating with you inside. But this is where intuition then, you know, comes to play. Sorry for the long winded explanation there. But intuition fascinates me. And I think the answer is intuition. Another one, of course, more simple than that is that somebody else tells you, you know, like I do on email every day, when people go, Marco, I'm into psychology, what should I start with, you know? Or I'm into symbolism, where should I start? So if somebody, you know, who knows what they know can help you, that's obviously a more generic way. But at the end of the day, you know, at the end of the day, it's going to come down to the personal journey. That's why at Siddhartha Road, you started asking me about hero's journey. Well, this is key to this. Maybe you go to get, maybe you go to find things. And maybe like an archaeologist, you dig up stuff, and you find out things that nobody knows, and nobody would ever tell you. It's a private journey. It's a, you know, go down to the library, go down to the bookstore, browse. When I used to go to bookstores back in the 80s, early 80s, this is in Santa Clara, I would just go down there and just walk around. And if, you know, spine of a book or the name of the book caught my eye, I'd read it. And this could be a memoir, this could be a history book, this could be some other sort of, you know, sociology, or just some lore fiction, you know, like that, I just, I just browsed. And then when I got work in bookstores in the 80s, sorry, in the late in the 90s, in the Bay Area, I did exactly the same thing. Stuff was coming on the bestseller tables, I got to know what a biography is. You know, I looked around the Roman Empire, oh, Napoleon, oh, you know, Camille Paglia, whatever, you know, I just completely dived in there. And my intuition, and she's one of the great names as well, by the way. So intuition just guided me. And then intuition guides you to go, you pick up something, and it looks good, and everybody's buying it. And you go, no, not for me. Trust that. Trust that. [Speaker 3] (26:38 - 27:07) Yeah, I like that you brought up Ayn Rand for sure. Because I mean, Ayn Rand's obviously a huge proponent of reason and rationality. But I mean, in her own writings, she's obviously a critic of what we're referring to as intuition, so to speak. And I guess mysticism. Did you find any challenge when reading Rand in blending divination and intuition and that sort of things with the strong sense of reason and rationality that she brings to the table? [Speaker 1] (27:07 - 27:08) Definitely. [Speaker 3] (27:08 - 27:08) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (27:09 - 32:21) And we've done some podcasts diving into these contradictions. Her hatred of Immanuel Kant stood out. Her disinterest in psychology, even though her chief prodigy is a psychologist, Nathaniel Brandon, is odd. But these are just her peccadilloes. My answer to it was just blow her a kiss and say, you're welcome in anyway, love. You don't need to take your shoes off over here. We'll accept all your blemishes because of what you've given. Because what you have given me is so immense, so immense, that if you eat with a knife and fork in the wrong way, I think we can forgive you there. If you put 16 sugars in your coffee, we'll handle all these peccadilloes. Yeah. But at the same time, I do a deep dive. See, I'm one of these people who in my life absolutely insist on these contradictions because they're really variations. And I want you to know both sides as part of the whole, you know, as part of my life and as part of the message. Why didn't she like psychology? What she got against Immanuel Kant? What has she got, you know, against the collective, say, or this other one where your mysticism, as she calls it, is out to lunch? Well, I found out why. But she's a very unusual person, by the way. She's a lot of light and shade. So even though she didn't like religion and didn't like mysticism, the reasons for it are very sound, actually, because she has in her mind the bugbear of collectivism. And so the mysticism she's talking about would be that which you find in East, not what you find in religion, you know, and not what you find in the New Age movement. But I think on a personal level, if you talk to her, she'd have a lot of time for psychology and she'd have a lot of time for deep, you know, you know, as I would call it, mystical naturalism, something rooted in reason, something that like intuition, as I've just described it, she would go for, because I said, it's hard and practical. It's an absolutely natural thing that when you see a butterfly's wings, to wonder, you know, about how that came about. Is nature a painter now all of a sudden? You see, so in the journey towards truth, you intuit. So all, so let's just take it in a broad brush. Everything about speculation, including the discovery of the quantum universe or Walter Russell's discoveries, or, you know, Bruce Lipton's discoveries about the photon, all of that comes from intuition, because it starts with what you ordinarily see, what everybody else sees. But it's like one of those blue lights that sort of, you know, like a luminol. The intuition is looking at everything as well and going, I wonder where that came from. I wonder if there's something behind that. I wonder what it does. As I said, emotion is not going to, mostly we'd say intellect does that, but there's a little bit of a mistake there. Intellect is useful once you've entered into the journey of picking up a thing. What is that? Right. Well, how does that work? Curiosity, it's actually really wonder. Go back to Plato, you know, the origins of philosophy are in astonishment and wonder. But all that is, is saying, what is that? And you go over to it, seawater. Why is it, why does it get salt in it? Water I know is good to the taste. Why does this one that I'd really love to swim in and drink, but it's all salty. That's horrible. Why? How did it get there? All the questions we have to ask, you know, is a bird cold blooded or warm blooded? No. And all the rest of it is the, is born out of curiosity and intuition is working there. Then once you've opened that door, intellect comes in as the razor sharp goggles, you know, and scalpel by which we then go into the thing to facilitate our natural knowledge. Why is every snowflake different? But why, why would it be different? Well, you know, on all these questions that we have. So it's intuition first, which is what it means. Intuiting that something, uh, you know, is that the foundation of what I see and I want to know about it. And intellect is the means to know about it. So if you presented that as a nine round type, they go perfectly. Okay. We just don't want you losing yourself in that so that you can get away from reason. And she's perfectly right. Why would you want anything that takes you away? Right. But she wasn't inspiration. She was an artist and she, she wrote the romantic manifesto, which is a book everybody should read to show you the journey of an artist, how the world is taken in and then regurgitated back onto a canvas, into a piece of music or into, you know, anything calligraphy or writing. There's a circular intake and outtake, right? The world is very much involved in that, but so was mine. And so she would be very into passion and she would be very into inspiration and into things that are not quantifiable. So again, it's like a slight in shade. She, uh, she appears more dogmatic than she actually is, uh, you know, on things. And actually to tell you the truth, she actually said some things which I consider highly mystical. So, you know, I, I give her a lot of elbow room that it would not give others. [Speaker 3] (32:22 - 33:03) Yeah. I like, um, because, I mean, I think from Nathaniel Brennan's perspective, his idea of reason is all the data that we receive from, from, from ourselves and from the world, including intuition, so to speak. So he almost includes intuition and, and, and reason from what I've understood personally. But I mean, I can just speak for myself. Like, I think I started at the truth warrior podcast. David mentioned unslaved. I came, listened to unslaved sage and psychopath and your, your podcast on narcissism just blew me away. Then that led me to somatic intelligence. And I see your asthma as my message, your asthma. And now we're here. And it's almost like intuition is the guiding force of all that as well. [Speaker 1] (33:04 - 33:07) So, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so misunderstood. [Speaker 3] (33:08 - 33:08) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (33:08 - 38:32) We've got to look at it like a spade, a wrench. It's not this mystical thing. It's a very, very practical thing. And it happens all day long. You know, um, if you didn't want to make your fishing nets better, if you didn't know how to weave your clothes for the winter, better, right? Uh, all of this is facilitated by intellect, but you've actually started one step too late. Intellect is the work a day tool, but there's a tool before that, that even, even, uh, you notice it, you attract your attention to it. Your attention is drawn to it. That's not intellect. That's intuition. And, and then of course, you know, it's bigger than that because these guys on wall street that young says have it well, then, you know, it's speculation. It's the ability to have pattern recognition to the law of tendency, which is if something that goes along like this all the time through decades, through history, that's a law of tendency. Same as isn't a person's biological life. Right. So I can now predict what they're going to do down the road. Not with a hundred percent certainty because there is no such thing, but the law of tendency. And so intuition is very much there. And then it works well with intellect that can check and balance it for you, you know? And so, yeah, it's just another one of these extraordinary misinterpreted words, as is truth. You know, one of the most misused words ever. Uh, so yeah, you, you know, it's like you guys say, you're here for the truth. And they can also be said, I'm here with the truth. Now, if I say to you, well, I I'm here with the truth. Isn't there something a meter in us that goes bullshit, right? Doubt that guy. So I can say here for the truth and it's perfectly acceptable as it should be. If I say I'm here with the truth, there's a certain repulsion, right? In our mind. Bullshit. Good. So, but then again, let's look at it from another point of view. What happens if a man is exceptionally wise and actually does have the truth? He's in the same boat. He can't come to the world and say, I'm here with the truth. So look at that paradox. It's a hypothetical, but nevertheless, it allows us to investigate the fact that there's something very peculiar about the truth because the moment somebody says they have it, I don't necessarily believe it. Well, wait a minute. That's kind of almost paradoxical. The man that comes to me and he says, he's Jesus and he's got the truth or Muhammad or whatever. I go, have you? Fuck it hell. I'm following you. Now we do know that people do do that. So there's already a very strange paradox. What is it in us that doubts the man who says he's got the truth? So much so that only a nincompoop would ever come out and say that. I find that absolutely amazing that that would be the case. But back to your point about reason. It's the, when Rand uses it, it has a specific meaning, talking about the actual faculty of reason, but you're quite right. It is also used by them as a catch all for all the different traits of us as the apex person in the food chain. We are the miracle. And so the traits that we have can be all summarized under reason, including emotion. It's just, we're the rational animal. Well, it depends where you're going to look for them. Right. But generally speaking, we love to call ourselves the rational animal. So that's what she meant. She didn't just mean reason like some, you know, left brain nut ball. Yeah. She was including the body and she was including faculties of art making, but she had dissected it. You see. So reason is a highly refined tool. And when you're reading her, she just focuses on reason, not necessarily the antecedent States before it, you know, a little bit on the romantic manifesto, you get that because she goes into conceptuality and perception, which is tremendously valuable as well. So there is good stuff there below, but generally speaking, you have to turn to others, maybe like a Hagel or a Schelling, you know, to talk about the antecedent stages that must have been there for a reason to be the shining capstone on the top of this pyramid. That's mostly shrouded in darkness. And it's not even really that much of interest today, even in philosophy, those antecedent stages. But again, that's a fascinating question, you know, about that, but what, what came before reason and how did reason even emerge at the top? And then what is its bad side and its good side? I'm sure Ayn Rand would have accepted that reason has some negative sides and that would be when it's blunt. That's when it's in a society that hasn't taught children to be rational. So they're not see reason for her is the means by which we're in connection with reality or nature. We're learning all the time. Yeah. But a blunted reason that hasn't been honed by parents and honed by society sees the same world, but in this blunt or foggy way. And then she's going to say, that's not rational. The rational person is not only grateful and respectful to be a thinking being, but is also always articulated to what nature is doing, what reality is doing, which only a very small part of that you can see in the urban environment anyway. So this then opens up a lot of different, uh, studies, you know, about, uh, reason and, and, and how, how, how nature instructed us to be rational. It's not just a man going, I'm going to be rational today. I woke up today. Where's my tank top and where's my weights? No nature schools you. And the wise man responds to that schooling. He gets up and he goes, wow, you're my instructor. I'll make you my instructor for the rest of my life. So it's a, it's a very, very reciprocal thing, actually the reason. [Speaker 2] (38:33 - 38:56) So would you say like on the topic of intuition that it, it, it sprouts from like the, the ground of curiosity. So you must have curiosity first and foremost to, to, to really connect to your intuition in a certain way. So for those individuals where the curiosity is going to be beaten out, beaten out of them, um, by parents or whatever, that their connection to intuition may be a little off. [Speaker 1] (38:56 - 47:16) Oh, it's dead. And most people, yeah. This is one of the great dangers and see the dangers that we have today can not be seen just as we analyze phenomenologically modern times. They have an etiology, a long history, all the traits, emotion, intellect, sensation, even, and intuition are all, uh, grow through. They've all come to be as realities or psychic types through the great process of history. You know, we needed it in the past. Um, we needed, uh, you know, emotion got us something, sensation got us something, intuition got us something, and then it evolves phylogenetically over the years. So we have it as a sort of an accretion of the very movement of history. So when people come along and cut it off for any reason, we're doing great damage to our psyches because the psyche is built out of the historical movement. And that's why I have history myself as such an important, you know, I even call it the euphemism for truth. Uh, my contribution to what is truth is history. History and truth are synonymous because every capacity you have to gain truth in the now had to be an accretion of a process. Uh, you know, Jung's archetypes, each archetype is not a mystical phenomenon. It's say, say, say, say the anima, which is woman. It's all human beings experience of woman, both good and bad done through the millennia. That's all the archetype of the anima is. There's no mystical aspect to it, except for the fact that in our history, some men have had a mystical experience with women. Yeah. So that's included, but it's not a mystical thing. It's a very physical and real thing born out of experience in the hardest sense. But if you unpack it, then you get all this other stuff you do get because you get, you know, the sublime. We look at in order to understand any archetype, think what that archetype relates to today and think about your relationship with it. So the animus is father. Well, you've got fathers today. So everything that you experienced with your father today is part of the archetype. That means I hate some of them and I love the others. Uh, I feel, uh, you know, uh, protected by one and not protected by another. Right. All of the things you could say today about those stereotypes is just more magnified, more, uh, what's called, um, reified in the archetype. So that means that some psychologists who speak to mystically of any kind of archetype, and there's plenty of these people who do, they're actually really, really, they're not really explaining it correctly. Right. There's a, the only reason there's a mystical aspect to the archetypes, uh, what Jung called numinous is the term he got from, uh, Rudolf Otto, the Christian thinker. Numinous meaning full of light is because it's so old. Ideas have come together like a constellation. It's like same in the constellation of the stars, right? If, if bright stars all get together, then it's like blinding. So the little bits of thought and the little bits of experience down through the millennia constantly, that's what our archetype is. It's individual ideas like a hybrid creature, but you can't see that they've all come together. And then they give off this incredible energy. That's where libido, that's where your physical energy comes from, right? Being the animus is the, it's literally vital energy. So it's a combination. It's a gestalt of all of this power put together. And the archetype then has this extraordinary power so that you know, it, you know, that's why when, when the archetypes approach you in your life, when you, if you're lucky to have that happen, well, that's a question, but when they enter into consciousness, you know it because they're coming in like with a, like a battery. They're coming in like a numinous angelic being, or even a demonic being can also happen. But when they enter in your life will change. That's why they call them numinous experiences or numinous dreams. And they're different than the other dreams I had. I tell you, this one was really powerful. Yeah, of course it's powerful because something is entering into consciousness through the veil, and it carries so much charge with it that your conscious mind just reels, you know, when the archetypes express themselves. But if you back engineer that, how did they become so powerful as these eidetic, you know, images in your mind, so to speak, is because they're accrued through the millennia, through the ages. Every single experience concretized in what we call the psyche is, and they concretize because they're like experiences, right? Archetypes come together from ideas and experiences that are similar to one another, and form literally Pygmalion-like out of the, you know, here's the anima, there she stands, there's the animus. But that comes from every human being's experience of man and woman. Intuition, back to your point, is that all through the centuries, we've had moments where intuition worked for us when we needed it. You know, seeing around that corner, is there a dangerous animal? Can I trust that person? So intuition is one of these developments over time that became so important, it's one of the four types. Each of the four types couldn't be what they are without, so if you honed in on them, if you really went with a microscope, you'd find they're like millions and millions, it's like a fractal of everybody's experience. Everybody's experience is in your head, and intuition is one of those accretions, and you either use it or you don't, or you throw it out, and if you throw it out, watch what happens. Of course, you couldn't throw it out. In Jung's system, you'd go mad, because now there's an imbalance. Instead of four which balance each other, one is gone, and the rest are, you know, terribly, you know, tweaked, like a ship that's keeling over. Well, actually, most people that you see right now, that's exactly what's happened, because intellect has taken hold. For centuries now, intellect has taken hold, and people's minds are off kilter. We have institutions that only want you if you're jumping through the hoops and have a high intellect and IQ. Our society is actually making it so that children who grow up will be compensated for their intellects, and emotion plays no role, intuition plays no role, and even sensation. What will happen is they'll play a role, but it's a role subservient to the intellect. Intellect is dominant, and the others are, you know, either supportive, and one will always be regressed, or what they call non-dominant, and that's where Jungian psychology comes in, because in the four, sorry to elaborate on this, but out of the four, one is aligned with the unconscious, because you can't have a dominant type, like intellect, without one being thrown to keep the balance deeper into the unconscious, and so in Jungian psychology, this one is called the repressed factor, or the deeply unconscious factor, is the one that they work on to move in so that there's a perfect cross. You'll keep seeing his mandalas and his emphasis on the quaternity. Well, that's what he means, and when in therapy, they're trying to work on the one that, you know, is repressed, and you don't even know it's repressed, and you don't want it normally to come into consciousness, because it threatens the status quo, or you think that it does. So in Jungian psychology, this fourth and hidden archetype, or not an archetype, but a type is the one that they'll seek for. So when you talk to them about your dreams, and your likes, and dislikes, and behavior, the Jungian will go, ah, so the intuition is the repressed one there. We have to work on that, and that's meant to be then, you know, bringing you to wholeness. But Jung based his system on ancient alchemy, because he didn't invent the quaternity. He studied this, and saw that this fourfold, even in the Christian myth, the fourfold is very, very important. The Native American Indians had it, the Tibetans had it, all the great systems had it. So he just factored it in, that the psyche is fourfold, and because of society, and because of other, you know, pathologies, one will be repressed. Now, why I'm wasting time on this is because look at our society today. This also has a social bearing, because we are, the Western world has lost its thread. It has, as you say, it's been, you know, not integrating intuition and emotion, and so the intellect is way, way, way too dominant, and that'll be, you know, bang, you'll hear this big bang one day, and it'll all be over, you know, unless we do the homework. [Speaker 2] (47:20 - 47:39) Why do you think some people are more connected to their intuition? Like, do you think there's a divination, like there's like an old soul, like what are your, why do you think a certain person, or someone who's like 15, or 20, or 25, just feels like they're more intuitive, and their life takes a certain direction, and for someone else, it doesn't. Like, what factors do you think play into it? [Speaker 1] (47:40 - 50:43) Yeah, this is interesting, because I grew up a very intuitive person, and a bunch of lunatics who had no such, didn't even know what it was all about. So, and it's not just being one of the types, it's how you're not overly one of the types. You don't want to be overly intuitive, because then you maybe are a bit too vague. You don't want to be too emotional, because then you're like some smother mother type of person who's gushing on. You don't want to be over intellectual, because that tends to, you know, go wrong as well. And you don't want to be over sensational, because they're fucking horrible people, right. But if you're balanced in any of these ways, you're very balanced, you're a good human being, you got it. But why somebody would be more over intuitive is probably either their good parenting has not forced them to see, you know, the intuition needs a lot of time. It needs to be restful. And it needs a lot of time. It's the one that requires a lot of time to, you know, speak to. So if you have a parenting that is rushing you off your feet, or they're very high maintenance, it doesn't mean that you can't be intuitive, you still could develop a very strong intuition, by the way. But generally speaking, that's going to be the one that suffers the most. You know, other than that, I don't know, it's hard to say, there is this, because we have another faculty in our minds, which is called the ego ideal. And the ego ideal is what identifies with heroes. So I think it's connected, my guess would be it's connected to this. And that is that when we look up, because what all children do, whether they're helped by their parents or not, and actually, even if the parents turn out to be real flunkies, right, you're still going to like your Bruce Lee's and your Zorro's and your Robin Hood's, you know what I mean? Your Sherlock Holmes's, you'll still identify with the heroic, you know, these Marvel comics, you know, a lot of this stuff is, people upstairs know about this, and have made hay out of it. And it's right, it's right to have heroic figures. So then I think that because you are maybe identifying with somebody like that, that has their own intuition, or go by intuition, this would be very much the case with a kind of a Sherlock Holmes-y type character, who are always using their intuition. I think that might help. So who you're identifying with, well, who you're identifying with is absolutely crucial, all caps to your personality development. So I would include this there. Because that's not a small thing, that is who you are. Your identifications, whether they're good or bad, is the total, total formation of your own character. And that's why it's so essential to have heroic, you know, characters to look up to with flaws. But at least, you know, they come out, that's why. The heroic character has more vices than everybody else. But he's conquered them, right? He works through them, you know, and he suffers accordingly. All of these things are very important for children to grow up with. This pathetic, sanitized world in which, you know, the children are just totally shielded from reality, and from dirtiness and death. That's wrong. [Speaker 3] (50:45 - 51:08) Yeah. One of my favorite quotes of all time, by yourself, no human being who's in their sensor can be hypnotized. That's what needs to be remembered. No human being who's in the sensor, who's being guided, who's close to their intuition, who is a sharp critical apparatus, who's got a sharp sense of judgment, can ever be manipulated. And that's just something that's stuck with me ever since I've read it. So absolutely potent. [Speaker 1] (51:09 - 51:23) It's true, too, because they've actually found out technically, psychologists have, that you can't hypnotize introverts. The extrovert goes down in a second. Well, what do you make of that then? Right? Shit. [Speaker 3] (51:25 - 51:42) Yeah. I know you go next. You go. So early on, obviously, you've mentioned your grandfather was a figure in the New Age movement, and you were brought up around it, so to speak. But in terms of intuition, what were the early hits that you got where you were like, something's deeply wrong here, something's flawed here in terms of that? [Speaker 1] (51:43 - 52:11) Oh, I had to use it every day. And almost every second of every day. I wouldn't, I couldn't have survived life without intuition. So, but that's a rare and exceptional state of being that is abnormal. It's abnormal, you know, so don't quote me on any of that. I have to just talk in general of its positives, you know, but oh, my personal case, it was a survival mechanism, a coping mechanism. [Speaker 2] (52:13 - 52:42) So many, I feel like these days, more and more people and I live in the hotbed of it in Los Angeles, of like, pseudo spirituality, the New Age movement, like, can you talk a little I know you've written, you've written articles about it. I know you've, you have multiple podcasts on it. But can you talk about the issues that you have with the New Age community and the challenges around it for a person who wants to individuate a person who wants to truly experience something more real? [Speaker 1] (52:43 - 59:04) Yeah, see, it contains things that are real. It's part of its temptation, like all things that are purely evil, they have to window dress with things that are actually quite profound. So and they're very good at doing that. They're very good at scavenging from the rands or whoever, scavenging from the what I refer to as the Western mystical tradition, there's a lot of scavenging goes on. And then they, you know, the window dress it. So I became very aware of this. See, my some, some of my family members are from the Krishnamurti tradition. And not that they ever honored one word that the man ever said, but I did. I read his books thoroughly, actually read them through my life, reading them assiduously when I couldn't understand one word. See, in almost every book of meaning that I've ever read. I didn't, for the most part of my reading it, it was just words on a page. And it's only through this capacity of intense persistence that I ever fucking panned for golden for Oh, very slow, very, very slow learner. But all of these people that surrounded me, you could just basically see that it was window dressing. But it might have been hard in the beginning, because again, you know, you're young, I'm talking about when I was like, you know, about 1314 15, when I met my grandfather, and was part of his ashram down there, not far from wheelchair Boulevard, right. And it was a jam packed. So although I like some of this, I like the like, the communal aspects was one thing I like, every Monday, he'd do a lecture in this beautiful Adobe building, right? The house that they had there, and loads of people from LA would come of all different descriptions, you know, police people, you know, they have a gun in their, you know, purses and things like that. I thought that brilliant, you know, and you're a young lad in America, you know, you smell these orange groves, and all these hippies and bikers and straight up and downers and characters, one lady was an FBI officer, you know, who knew all about the mafia. She worked in, you know, in the casinos of Vegas, fuck sake, there was so much to be fascinated with, with these individual people. Some had been high class secretaries in New York, you know, so I want to I was surrounded by colorful people, some of them very colorful. And this social aspect attracted me enormously. But that's different than having a vow. That's, that is, that's a value. And then but then respect is different, you know, and so, and also the intellectual downloads. My grandfather was in his own way a very brilliant man when it came to being this raconteur. And so was Paul Solomon. But see, I like Paul Solomon, not because of what he was teaching. I liked him. You're talking about intuition, right? I like the man I would hang I would love to have hang out with him. If he had been a street cleaner. In fact, he said he weren't, you know, he had once worked in porno shops and stuff like that. I fucking love that, right? So it's like, here's a real ordinary guy. And then after he gave these extremely spiritual lectures or a thing, he goes, Okay, let's go. We've rented the restaurant. And in fact, at 11 o'clock at night, you know, he'd have everybody just pour into, you know, a restaurant in town at along after the closed, and he'd rented it and we could all just have a fantastic feast. That's the kind of guy I like. He's grounded in the earth, as well as, you know, the esoteric, so to speak. So I liked him as a person. I like Sir George Trevelyan, another great sage as a person, despite what they were teaching. And so there was this little fissure that I didn't just worship you because you know, you wore a shawl, an Indian shawl, and you know, you waxed lyrical, and all of that. Being from Ireland, maybe is that aspect that I like that groundedness. And he was just a warmer character, my grandfather, fucking evil, a total fucking charlatan, a cold blooded bastard. And then, then it moved from there. And as I said, you try to salvage what's good from it, and there is certain amount, but I don't know what it was, all I can say is that everybody else I met, and this are 1000s of people, I find them all to be completely false. And this is in California. That's just completely subjective. So when I look back, I can't see anyone that I considered a true person. And some of these people were known, you know, known to us for a long, long period of time, over many decades, in some cases, and never once did I ever feel that they were good people. And so even though their bookshelves are loaded with all the latest fucking, you know, Dwayne Dwyer, and Eckhart Tolle, and whatever the fucking else it was, I myself, totally personally didn't go for it. So I start reading Lao Tzu, I start reading more of Krishnamurti, I would read, you know, various other books that they had on display there, you know, and I found that to be much more true. And all the guru worship, and what have you, I found to be fake. And of course, later on, I was able to prove it because remember, there's a lot of quasi Gnosticism, if not wholesale Gnosticism in these movements of the new age, there's a great denial of the body, you know, the somatic thing you were mentioning earlier, apart from a bit of lip service, it's very aesthetic. All of these people sat in meditation. In fact, my grandfather had a meditation room, and people could just walk in there, you know, his group could just come over for a few hours and sit there in solitude and stuff like that. Not a bad thing, all together. But the premise is this Eastern asceticism, in which you're sort of removing yourself from the world, your goal is outside the planet, outside the cosmos, outside this reality. And somehow, just purely intuitively, although I studied it immensely, and was part of certain paths, it never sat right with me. And then I proved it because I read, you know, as you say, the great masters, I went and read the refuters of this. And that fucking knocked my head back into sanity went, Oh, my God, oh, my God. It's like, you know, it's like, fucking Lord Theoden, waking up from all the worm tongue, right? That's like one of those moments, and then you're crystal fucking clear. And that's a very, very powerful thing. And the New Age movement, yeah, for the most part, I won against it. Or at least if you tread into it, you have to be very, very careful. [Speaker 3] (59:07 - 1:00:02) Yeah, I absolutely agree. I can again, I can only speak for myself. Initially, I've considered my first like kind of major shift in consciousness, whatever you want to call it occurred around 2015. Then I read Eckhart Tolle initially in Power of Now and stuff like that. And I was just totally blissed out. And I just, I was able to let everything go, drop the past, drop the future, just enjoyed everything, every momentary experience. And this worked for me for a long time, I found so much joy in just like emptying the dishwasher or taking the garbage out and things of that nature. But I mean, ultimately, I cast a shadow as long as you can possibly imagine in that process. I found it deeply affected my ability to reason as well. Because how can you drop the past and drop the future and still consider yourself a rational being when you're not using that material to think and to digress and to discern and to navigate your life? It's so, from my personal experience, it's 100% a very slippery road. [Speaker 1] (1:00:04 - 1:00:31) Yeah. And this, you see, don't forget that it is actually important to do that. Yeah. As well. How can I know falsity unless I know truth? And how can I know truth unless there's the counterpoint of falsity? So when you go through these rites of passage in your life, from what you're describing, it can actually be one of the most productive times. Because finding the truth is finding first what you don't want. [Speaker 2] (1:00:32 - 1:00:32) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:00:32 - 1:00:53) It's deconstructive, as you know, it's all about removing the illusion. So when you see yourself back then doing that, like I see myself back there in the middle of that nonsense, right? And all the fakes. It is one of the most valuable things to steer you right. It's a coordinate. At the very least, it's a coordinate that will hold you true to the rest of your life. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:00:54 - 1:01:05) Yeah. It's very orienting. It helps you to orient and ground now because you have that GPS, so to speak, of where's the out of bounds, you know what I mean? [Speaker 1] (1:01:05 - 1:01:14) Yeah. The falsity is the most extraordinary thing. You know, William Blake, the English poet said, the fool who persists in his folly becomes wise. [Speaker 2] (1:01:15 - 1:01:15) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:01:16 - 1:02:26) Very, very, very, very interesting. And given that the whole process of looking for the truth is a process, and it's deconstructive, then it makes perfect sense. But not everybody knows that. So they're liable to beat themselves up for that period that you're and I want to, you know, we are brought up to be body hating. And so whole cultures have turned against that. That's what the almost positive part of the 60s was about being sensational. You know, was it Philip Larkin wrote a great poem about the difference between the new kids in the 60s who could have sex anywhere and, you know, it became permissible and his generation, which, you know, you couldn't even kiss a girl. Everything was so rigid and no touching, no physical touching without a chaperone and all of this. So we've gone through certain periods where, you know, then it's expected in the Hegelian way that the opposite will manifest from the what was before the status quo before the 1940s and 50s and whatever, with this completely repressive attitude and almost distaste for sex and the body and nature and enjoyment. And in an individual life, like you just described, can be the same thing as well. I guarantee you probably came up. Did you come up with fairly repressive parents or? [Speaker 3] (1:02:27 - 1:02:32) Yeah, well, I was I was raised as Jehovah's Witness. Oh, for fuck's sake, don't go away. [Speaker 1] (1:02:33 - 1:02:47) Yeah, there you go. There you go, then. Right. So that was a phase in your life that was actually incredibly instructive, I would say to you. And did you know wrong, ultimately? You know, so it's again, there's things can be seen from various perspectives, actually. [Speaker 3] (1:02:48 - 1:02:58) Yeah, I find you bounce between the opposites. Then the gap becomes refined as you as you continue down the process. It's it's extraordinary to actually contemplate in that way, for sure. [Speaker 2] (1:02:59 - 1:04:46) Yeah, when I even when I first got into like health health studies, like I remember I was like the health police. I was like, you can't eat. What are you doing? Why are you having the Red Bull? Why are you doing this? Like you're going to this is good. But then I feel like I came back to a much more grounded, centered place. But I had to go through that process, you know, swings. Yeah, like you go from one to the other. And then it's like, all right, you kind of can stand in between the tension of opposites and have a little bit more balanced understanding, you know, and and that was kind of my my foundational really work was was was psychological psychospiritual work of understanding the compensatory nature of the psyche and how if you over identify with one way of being on the other side, that's hiding in the shadows is another equal and opposite part of you. And so how can you honor and embrace that part of a part of you and integrate that you don't need to become it, but just know that it's there. And that's the has supported me throughout my journey. And it's also helped me, I guess you could say intuitively, like really get a sense of when people were like spiritually bypassing, you know, like, it's a huge term where it's just like, people are just like horrible things are happening. And it's like, well, you know, this is meant to be and this is it's all part of my journey. Meanwhile, like it's okay to go through the second emotions of having a horrific experience, you know what I mean? So I just feel like there's this, this thing with with individuals where they don't want to, I've heard you speak about it, I don't know where you got it from. But this idea of legitimate suffering, what people don't, they won't experience these, these natural emotions around events that happen in their life, because what they're not, that'll that'll show to others that they're not super evolved or super enlightened, because they're, they're, they're sad, or they're anxious, or they're, or they're upset with something. And I find that a lot when I meet some people, and this is like, everything has to be positive, all the time, everything's positive. It's ridiculous. [Speaker 1] (1:04:47 - 1:07:41) Yeah, you nailed it. Yeah, I forgot to mention that, that these sun worshippers, children of the sun, you know, they're, this is what I discovered, that that's what they're doing. They're actually not working spiritually at all, the New Agers and other people like that. In fact, I'd say this have even most religious types, they have created a pseudo self or a pseudo path and a pseudo world in order to prevent them actually dealing with the real facts. And this is multiple, this also includes the body armory, the emotional plague, the metrophobia, in the case of women, it may mean also that they are wanting to live in that one season world, as you say, and, you know, but but but then to self deceive that they're doing something valid, they just sign on for one of these archaic paths like Buddhism or whatever, right? They're signing on for this great window dressing, but it's based on self delusion. Now, who then somebody would say, well, who the hell are you to come in and tell me that that person isn't legitimate? So it's all subjective. I stood back and watch these people. And I'm telling you that I found them to be cruel, false and hypocritical. So I can't convince you of that. But I was convinced and I proved it to myself. You know, and and therefore, then I acted upon that. But it's not that I didn't know great people too. But every time I met a great person, and I had these people, I had them as mentors, mentioned two names, and there's been others. These people were like fucking Dorito eaters. And love to head down to Chuck E. Cheese's, you know, they were the most normal, normal, they had no errors. And they were the most spiritual people I've ever fucking met. I mean, one guy had a garden in his car. Like mud. And he was the fucking wisest man I've ever met. So I met the motherfucker. Oh, I seen the Cadillacs. I seen Yeah, yeah. You don't know many ashrams I was involved in. All right. And the little guy with a garden in his car. This old junker. You don't even think about it. Don't even think about the light and that man's being. Yeah, right. And he own nothing. He lived in a fucking hut in the woods. That's what I'm talking about. And I met them in Ireland. I met them on buses. Not in California, mate. Not in the fucking New Age movement. No, nada. So yeah, it is a mystery how one would work that out. Why don't you rest? And you risk being ostracized when you do so. It's quite a thing as well. It's not just a passive thing. You will be ostracized, you will be condemned. If you if you if you point it out, or you, you know, you don't quite fit in and all that. [Speaker 3] (1:07:42 - 1:07:51) Why do you think so many westerners are magnetized to this movement? And so, oh, simplified Eastern mysticism as well. [Speaker 1] (1:07:52 - 1:09:42) Well, I crept in through the Gnostic cult. It's all intentional to undermine the West. It's part of a very old strategy. And you can study the individual characters like Nicholas Rorish, or, you know, Vivekananda. That's quite interesting, too. But yeah, as you say, it was it was a plan from day one. And it's it's a plan to undermine the West. And I talk about this cult in two premiums I've done on Gnosticism. Very, very, very great study, long, long, long study, not only into the principles of Gnosticism, but then how it mobilized itself and disguised itself. Nazis, for instance, are Gnostics. Buddhists, you know, Hindus, you know, there's a lot that goes into this, and many of the cults. So to find a non Gnostic religion, there are such ones and they're hard to find. The rest is a sweeping movement. And then why it appealed to the Western mind is because they were never introduced equally so to the Western mystical tradition, which is a very deep and rich tradition. And they were never exposed to it. Consciously or unconsciously, teachers in the West, teachers, right? They never taught us it. They never exposed us to it. And therefore it just has been junked. And then in that abscess, once that abscess is there, it needs to be filled. And that's when these super wealthy Gnostics, the Gnostic cult took full advantage of that and started, you know, working behind people like Alice Bailey and a bunch of other kooky people, you know, to bring in the spiritualist movement in England and it just goes on and on. You know, it's a huge subject, but the long and short of it is we've been colonized. And our fault is because we never really understood the preciousness of the Western magical tradition or Western mystical tradition. [Speaker 2] (1:09:43 - 1:10:03) What would be, just even taking that topic based on what you said earlier, like four or five of the greatest minds to speak on that subject? Are there people that you would recommend for any of our listeners that maybe have, you know, been hypnotized by the New Age movement and are working themselves out of it and want to dial in and tap into the Western mystical tradition? [Speaker 1] (1:10:04 - 1:13:23) Well, that's hard because the ones I would recommend are so highbrow that that's not a good place to start. But you can start with people like Colin Wilson, the writer. He wrote a book called Beyond the Outsider, and then another one called The Outsider. I would start there. Mikiel Nehme, he wrote the book, The Book of Mirdad. I would refer people to that. I would refer people to Khalil Gibran. Oh my God, C.S. Lewis, a Christian thinker. Oh, you know, there are, Ayn Rand, popularist, of course, I have to always mention that. Ayn Rand would be beautiful for people to just clear the cobwebs away. You know, but I have a very large recommendation list in which you wouldn't first think that, well, what the fuck I want to read that guy for? You know, but it's quite a journey. You see, it's not just, you know, and again, if you're coming from the mystical naturalistic point of view, then you definitely want to read, you know, your Wordsworth, your Emerson's, your Henry David Thoreau, your Walt Whitman, and that kind of poetry. Yeah, there's a lot of recommendations to dive deeply into people's work, but those are the ones off the top of my head. Now, the other ones are more deeply philosophical, just put you off unless you have, you know, a lot of experience getting into those people, you know, like William Blake and Jacob Bohm and all of that, but, you know, Meister Eckhart, Hegel, Schelling, you know, yeah, there's a whole bevy of those people, but I tend to want to break their work down, you know, that's why the Unslaved was really start, and I've got more work to do on that. There's some really good series coming up, by the way, but yeah, that's a little technical and difficult, especially because, remember, I just said it's been hinterlanded and misinterpreted like you can't even believe. So, you know, when people come to it, they might be reading some oik or some plonker, some flunky who wrote the book on it. Do you know how much lies have been told about Hegel alone? Almost everything you know is wrong. What was that, you know, book by, yeah, what was his name, you know, yeah, everything you know is wrong. Yeah, well, this is what happens there, you know. So, whether it's Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, whoever, these people, you know, a lot of junk has been written, but, you know, that's what my podcasts are for. We've done beautiful stuff on Kierkegaard and, oh, all sorts of really good stuff there, you know, and we just did another one on non-dualism just this week. We did, you know, called Mystical Naturalism and the Case Against Non-Dualism, part two of a thing on non-dualism, because that's another pestilence that's being created by, that was funded and created by the Gnostic movement. See, our world, that's what, that would be my biggest, you know, no-no for the New Age movement. You asked about that. It's Gnosticism, and it's quasi-Gnosticism, and it's funded by Gnostics, and they flooded America with these spiritual guru types. They're not spiritual, right? They're just auto-hypnotized freaks, but we all fell for it because we didn't have, we're not nurtured by our own Western magical tradition, mystical tradition. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't study all of those things. I did myself, so I'm not saying, you know, put a cross on the front door and keep that away. It is a study. You must know your opposition. You must know the enemy. You must know what they're doing. What are the techniques of auto-hypnotism, the techniques of, you know, supernaturalism, for God's sake, and then, you know, you move from that point on. [Speaker 3] (1:13:23 - 1:13:40) Yeah. For those that are listening that probably haven't been introduced to Gnosticism or the Gnostic cult in the way that you're mentioning, I know it might be difficult to simplify, but how could you explain that as the underpinning of the New Age movement? [Speaker 1] (1:13:42 - 1:19:28) Well, there's two premiums on the whole thing, going right the way through it, so that people can identify the theology of it, the ideology of it. See, it has certain secret ingredients, right? If you're doing a blind test, somebody puts a blindfold on and gives you a piece of cake, and you go, what is that flavor? You go, hmm, I think that's, hmm, is that cinnamon? No, it's my favorite, or cherry. So, they've secreted homeopathically within the New Age movement certain flavors that are very appealing to us and for the right reason. These are the top intellects. You wouldn't believe what's behind this fucking shit. To me, it's the most evil shit, but they know the ingredients. They know your psyche better than you know it yourself, and so they've put lots of nice little flavors in there, you know, which burst onto the tongue. For a newbie, you know, I went down to the Gnostic centers in the Bay Area. You know, this is fucking awesome. Oh, this is good. White robes, you know, ethereal women, chalices, goddess theories, and fucking, you're there, man, that's it. You're coming to the back streets of fucking Belfast, hook, fish, done. It's window dressing. You have to be so, what's the fucking word? You have to be so skeptical and, you know, horrible. You've got to be the horror on the block. Remember, in human design, didn't you mention one type that, like, pushes everybody away and is automatically hated? That's me. Whatever fucking type it is, that's it. And you have to be that, right? But then you taste these little, you taste these things and it goes, hmm, yeah, but wait a minute, wait a minute. And then you basically, what I did was take it apart. You just take it apart and find out where all these threads lead. And so they lead to a group that has taken elements of different religion, religious ideas, that never would have been exposed or anything, but they put it together in the most extraordinary cocktail. And it's spiked. It's just one of these cocktails where you go, is this banana? Is that coconut? Oh yeah, I fucking love that. Right? And down it goes. So it's a pina colada from hell. You know, it's like, it's just unbelievable what they've done. And it's got cherries on it, right? So this thing is like the most gorgeous sundae that anyone, any insane person could produce. You know what I mean? It's just unbelievable. And there's a big fucking satanic grin behind it. But they're also in Christianity. What we're talking about is also in aspects of Judaism, you know, and the whole story of it is actually incredible when we get into it. And I'm doing programs on it. But the New Age movement and its champions have used this woo-woo, have used a lot of, and they've used some very positive things as well, to overwrite psychology, to overwrite the Western magical tradition. And it is a study of how they've done it. And a lot of good people get caught up in it. Must tell you that, you know, I didn't meet too many good people in it, but they're obviously, outside my experience, obviously, obviously it's seductive. And that has to do with the bankruptcy of our, of our Western tradition, but wasn't bankrupt originally. But when was the last time you ever talked to anybody about the Bach saga? Or Odinism, or Orsatru, or German Romanticism, or German Idealism, or, you know, the earlier German mystics, or the English equivalent. See, what we call logical positivism under Bertrand Russell, what we call, well, pragmatism in America is a bit of an odd one. It's got some very, very positive aspects. But more of this deconstructionism, and other materialist, atheistic beliefs that came into American science and psychology, you know, that swept that all aside. It literally boulderized it and bulldozed it. And pluralism, and multiculturalism, and feminism, we get that in place of what was. So when you, when you erect something, anything, right, think of making a house of cards, or a sandcastle on the beach. If I build an edifice, I can say to the world, this here is to replace what's lost. And everybody goes, to replace what we lost. Brilliant. But the, the cynic, as I said, he turns around, but now that it's there, the other thing could never be. It's in the place of the thing. We'll go, oh, shut up you. Didn't he say it was just a wonderful, you know, replacement for the thing that we've lost and don't remember? I go, yeah, but now that it's there, the other thing couldn't come back if it did. It's in the fucking place of the, of the, we don't care about that. So that, that, that's what's happened. The things that are now installed, all the things I just mentioned, are in the way of the original. It can't get in. Yeah. It's like, you know, imagine there's been stories of, you know, a famous band and one of the two, the lead singer couldn't get into the venue because he couldn't, he didn't have a ticket. I'm in the band. Oh sure, mate. Away you go. That's the real thing. Can't get in the fucking venue anymore. So my work, you know, tragic as it is, is to try and, because I love it. It's like I said, these were hobbies that then became something else, right? Don't ask me how. But then to me, I want to dig back. My way of eating away at that falsity of kicking it over is to just gruel it out and try to bring back the tenants, the basic ones, by the way, all of this tradition, be they in the mystery school, be they in the podcasts or writings, as you said, you know, things like that. [Speaker 2] (1:19:29 - 1:20:03) Yeah. I think that's why I'm such a fan of your work and Unslaved and I literally like scream it from the rooftops from anyone that I come across is your ability to synthesize a lot of material and some of this maybe highbrow stuff that most people aren't going to read that you've read and able to kind of just get the nuggets from and then connect it to someone else from a different time period and this person and deliver it in a way that it's accessible. You know, it's very accessible. I wouldn't say I like I watch an episode. I'm like, I can't understand 90% of the things that are coming out of Michael's mouth. You know what I mean? So like, it's still amazing. [Speaker 1] (1:20:04 - 1:21:00) Yeah, that's the skill of it or the effort. To do that, you know, to stop the obfuscation and the obscurity, because I am a big personal believer that anything that is esoteric can be explained in simple language. That's why I refer people to Khalil Gibran or Mikheil Naimi, you know, people like I just recommended CS Lewis, you know, the screw tape letters, you know, there's a whole bunch of people and I really have learned to do that in my life to clear up the mess of it and not too many digressions and to make it also very interesting for people, I think is very, very vital, you know, but yeah, the situation in the world today, I don't believe in a great awakening, you know, like a lot of people do. I believe in it that people have been shaken up, but that's a world away from being wakened up. That still has to come. Yeah, people are, you know, attendance records and churches right now is at the door, you know, so it's back into the rut. It's replacing one dogma with another. [Speaker 2] (1:21:01 - 1:21:13) Yeah, I find that too, especially in like the truth movement, there are a lot of people who have left the womb of the New Age world and have just jumped into the womb of the Christian world, the Jesus world. [Speaker 1] (1:21:14 - 1:22:03) Yeah, I'm seeing that and those things are a study, you know, like I study Christianity all the time, you know, things like that. I've got websites on it, but again, you're quite right. What's the point of getting disenchanted with your post-modernism or you see the flaws in a particular thing like critical theory and then just regressing and there's even people in this movement are advocating it right now as we speak. There's people who should know better. They themselves have capitulated to that. And again, that's a symptom of thinking, well, there's nowhere else to go. Well, there is, it's called the Western mystical tradition. So, you know, this is a real problem because, you know, the vast majority of people in this movement are not in the least bit interested in authentic psychology, except for a lip service, and they certainly couldn't care less about the Western mystical tradition. They don't even know what that is. [Speaker 3] (1:22:04 - 1:22:15) Yeah. Do you think like on a political level, like extreme right wing of fundamentalism could be waiting in the wings, so to speak, considering everything that we're experiencing? Yes, definitely. [Speaker 1] (1:22:16 - 1:27:49) It has been waiting in the wings a long time. And I go back and forth because I'm quite a conservative person. So part of me goes, fuck and can't wait. Great. You know, get it back. I don't mean Christianity. I just mean traditional values and all of that. The other liberal part of me goes, you know, another way. But what you're addressing is a worry. Yeah. If this thing came back because a leader jumped up who started to, again, awaken that atavistic, this is the danger. They use a psychology of their own to awaken the radical right. That's not a good thing. Now, we don't really even have a right wing in this country, in America. So that has to be factored in as well. That has been excised long, long ago in a very deft and clever way. So there isn't really a right wing. But you're quite right. The fundamentalistic airheads are just waiting their chance for the deep foot. See, these sides need each other so badly. They couldn't exist without each other. So the other side sits there. They're very wealthy. They're billionaires. And they sit there waiting their descendants of the old Pilgrim Fathers and the Puritans. This is one of the foulest institutions. And I shake that might come to pass. But just in general, speaking speculatively, look at all the rivalries that are awakening in the world, no matter what it is, left, right, Christian, non-Christian, Muslim, whatever, Jew, whatever. See, the thing to grasp about of all of this is each enemy says, brother, stay near me. Brother, enemy, I need you more than anything else. Because psychologically, when there's insecurity in a person or a nation or a thing, that means my identity is weak. What better strengthens your sense of identity, your weak fucking impotent sense of identity, than an enemy at the gates? Take the Jews. Here's a group of people who are under captivity. Well, you know, a small sea. Some of them were just guests. But yeah, they had the Assyrians, for instance, Babylonians, Egyptians, the Persians all come in and basically house arrest them all. What does that do? People say, the Jews, they have this big identity. They work together. They're so close. They're inbred. You know, they only think of themselves. Yeah, they never studied their history. They are that way because they were under threat from external enemies at the gates. So take that metaphor and apply it now to the left and the right or anyone else. The weaker your sense of identity is, the more you need the enemy. Well, then the next question is, so we'll never be free of an enemy, Michael. Right, because the enemy is necessary for your sense of identity. So people want truth and enlightenment? Fucking smoke that in your pipe. You tell me when it'll end. Shelley said, great poet, when all men are wise and good, government of itself will decay. And the question then is, how do you make man wise and good? Because that's the missing part. If he's right, and I believe he was, then how do you get wise and how do you get good? Question mark. Right. Without psychology, first of all, that's what my platform is always about. Well, without psychology, that's null and void. That's just a nice poetic statement. And then, you know, from there, one goes to investigate what on earth he meant. Government of itself will decay when all men are wise and good. He's told you, he's given you your mandate. And yet, well, who cares? We want the conflict. I need my enemy close to me. Because why? Because your fucking self, your identity is so weak. So when you talk about the right wing, left wing, you know, look, I'm quite right wing, but I'm also a person who understands that any of these groups on a more of a national scale, if you keep needing an enemy to be what you are, I don't want to join you. I don't want to be part of you. I don't want to be left or right if I know that the reason why you're in constant conflict and that's each other's throats is over something so tawdry and empty. There's an old Star Trek, I don't know if you've seen it from the original series, where it's about two guys from a planet that turn up and they're in constant conflict. And the Star Trek Enterprise has to handle these two lunatics. It beams them both on board. And it turns out at the end of the show that the reason why their cultures, the planets have been totally destroyed, their planet has been totally destroyed, and all their race wiped out except these two guys who've been hunting each other through the galaxy for a millennia. And it turns out that the only reason they've been doing this is that they have this, their facial features is black on one side, white on the other. They're this strange race that is completely black, pitch black on the one side of the face and white on the other. And it turns out at the end, Gene Roddenberry, the reason they're fighting is because he's black on this side and the other guy's black on that side. And white, they're mirror opposites. And that's enough for them to have destroyed a civilization of millions of people. Because you're white on one side and I'm white on the other side. That is what I'm talking about. When your sense of identity on a psychological level is so weak that you can't live without an enemy. The Jews own their identity as a people to the constant conflict, whether it's Egyptians or whoever. And that is the same with everybody else. Everybody else. So smoke that in your pipe. Find out then what is real individualism, where I don't need any other to know what I believe and what I stand for. We're not there yet. We're in kindergarten. You know, at that level of development. [Speaker 2] (1:27:53 - 1:27:54) No masters above, no slaves below. [Speaker 1] (1:27:56 - 1:29:08) Well, let's try it. Because in the sadomasochistic world we find ourselves, we want the masters, which is the enemy, and we don't mind even being sadomasochistically the slave. See, that's why psychology is needed. You can't free a group who doesn't want to be freed. Right? The whole of the Stalinist era was voted in. Vast majority of people supported communism. And even after the Soviet Union fell, people in the majority still didn't like the new Russian experiment. Stalin wins the best man of the year award to today in Russia. China is clearly draconian and communist today. They've never even looked like they're going to become a liberal democracy. People love tyranny. But the man whose identity is either gaseous or jelly-like likes it even more. And we've got it in the West. So words like freedom, words like truth, they've always been just merely talismanic. They're the most abused terms, and they really don't mean anything. Man does not want truth. And the wisest men of all know that. The first step on the rung of the ladder of wisdom is to know that. The vast majority are not going to go through any great awakening, and they are not interested in truth. [Speaker 2] (1:29:13 - 1:29:14) I think we need to change the name of our podcast. [Speaker 1] (1:29:17 - 1:36:47) For our exceptions. Yeah, I'll just play it. And you're having a great many of them on. Not all, but all of our podcasts have disinformationalists and plonkers. But we also, you see, it's all about your intention. And you guys know, as I do, that it is the search for the untrue that really opens the gate. That's the master key. Once I have discovered what is impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. Or it is only by the painstaking discovery of what is untrue that the truth stands forth. And it's painstaking. And that's why most people, one of the reasons they don't want to do it. It is painstaking. It requires your reason. Well, the TV and the media have dulled that to the point of obscenity. You probably don't care about it. You know, the schooling and education that you experienced was so dreadful that you don't want anything to do with it anymore. And kicking back and watching, you know, TV or whatever, you know, is preferred. And hey, hey, the ultimate truth is freedom. So you must step back and allow people to be unfree. I mean, to be free enough to abuse freedom. See, here's another one of the things we're talking about, one of the great paradoxes. If freedom is the ground of all, and their freedom is also... See, it is by way of freedom that all evil comes into the world. Remember we talked about evil needing... sorry, the opposites needing each other? Every act of evil celebrates good. Every act of evil celebrates the sovereignty of good, because the real good is the freedom by which I can flaunt all moral rules. We've got a moral universe. People say there's a God. Only a good God could make you free enough to flaunt all his rules, to speak in Christian language. Now, follow this. Some people have made this a proof of God in the philosophical sense. If only a good God, only a spirit that is goodly in its core could ever bestow us the foundational freedom to do evil, to flaunt truth, to murder mankind, right, to do anything that is immoral, you're free to do it. So freedom then is what we need to build our altars to. But it's a very strange phenomenon we don't understand very correctly. So that means that every evil that is done actually points to the greatest good that there is, which is freedom. And just because freedom is constantly misused by other people doesn't change this essential philosophical fact. But where are the altars to freedom? You see, so the good and the evil are... when these non-dualists and these other people say, you know, there's no such phenomena. You want to bet? As long as you're free, there will always be good and evil. But ultimately, it's a positive story because it means then that only a goodly God, right, so to speak, would ever, ever, ever rule the cosmos to give people the freedom to flaunt every one of the edicts of that force. People really need to contemplate that. And then every time they see evil in the world, to understand it aright. There's something very extraordinary about goodness and truth, and we haven't studied it. These are tenets of the Western magical tradition, mystical tradition, that have not been assured. If every child was brought up to understand this point that Immanuel Kant and Schelling, you know, and others worked on, if every child was instructed upon this, what do you think would be their view of reality and the cosmos? You can take all that biblical shit and throw it away. There's only one Christian edict that you need, and that's this. And you'd have it. It would transform a person. It would transform their view of their own actions morally and the actions of the world. They'd have a new and true perspective of why chaos and evil is taking place in the world. It is an affirmation of freedom, which itself is an affirmation of a good God. And even if you don't believe in a supernatural God, then make freedom your God. You're already good to go. Come on, society, let's try that one for size. What, you still want Boris Johnson? And you want Obama? And you want Putin? Is that where you're at? You want this Xi Ping over in fucking China? That's what you want? You want a fucking inline? And then you want, that doesn't look like freedom to me, mate. Maybe you don't want it. Why? Because there's something in it that is so deep. It's an affirmation of something so immense that you can't handle it. It's too big for you to insert into your fucking bird box mind. But as I say, the real reason is, because I think people would take to this, this is my conclusion, but they don't take to it because it simply hasn't been articulated by our educators. Yeah. What is God to you? Well, that's immense. And I would say, you know, I don't, I'm not a religious person, so I don't believe in a God in any sense of in the religious terminology. But at the same time, I'm a mystical naturalist. So for me, nature is the go-to to answer that question. I'm also a personalist, but we won't get into that today. The mystical naturalist is saying that they see, according to principles of existential psychology, umwelt, the German word for nature, is the mirror of the soul, the mirror of your true core being that gets covered up in all this stuff. Society, mitwelt, is the mirror of the ego. So the person who spends too much time in the urban environment, and I'm saying it's nothing wrong with being social and being part of a society, but if it's exclusive and you don't factor in the umwelt, then the being that you are is entirely ego-based. And selfhood need not apply. So when you spend more time in nature, and the whole question of how you do so, I don't mean bungee jumping and surfing and all that nonsense, not in a recreational sense, but in a truly deep spiritual vocational sense. That's why Krishnamurti is so valuable. This is Jiddu Krishnamurti, J Krishnamurti, to distinguish him from others. And your Henry David Thoreau's and your Walt Whitman's, the people I mentioned, Emerson, that's why they're so valuable, because they're turning to nature. And in that, there is then a mirroring of the true self. So to me, you know, it's a kind of a quasi pantheism, so to speak, although again, outside its religious meaning, because as you know, pantheism is about God created everything and then plunged into the world, and is here, it's called immanentism, right? That's where I differ. There's no supernatural God in my life, right? It's almost like saying, how did we explain it last time? The creation is not actually a creation. It wasn't created. It is creative. Is that clear? It's like the universe itself, the creation is creative in and of itself. [Speaker 3] (1:36:48 - 1:36:48) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:36:49 - 1:40:14) Any supernatural explanation of how it got created is what I call mysteria, absolutely ridiculous falsity. And even pantheism, that's why I'm not quite a pantheist, because that still says an external God in a supernatural place came in and created the world. God is in our world, all right, but we created it as an explanation, not a very good one, I'm afraid. And so the universe is itself self-sustaining and negentropic, and there's no beginning and no end, right? So this goes out, Big Bang Theory, any of that theory, Big Bang is okay, but it's not the beginning. It is another emanation or phenomena of something that has no beginning. In other words, it's more like a change that happened in the cosmic order, but it is by no means, and it's completely wrong, to associate it with the beginning. And this has already been critiqued by some of the scientists of the highest emanations, Hanne Alvén from Sweden, Walter Russell, the plasma cosmology. That's already been cancelled. But again, it's the myth that everybody wants to believe, right? Because in that insecurity, on the metaphysical level, we not only need the God, the All Father, but we need the beginning and the end, because what are they? They're structures. It's like a horse race, right? It's like familiar, like hamsters need a clock ticking, you know, if they're alone, you put a ticking clock in there, and it could sleep, it feels that there's another animal there, or it feels that, you know, it's got comfort. So our comfort is the, we can live now. No, take that away, and people go unmoored and uncomfortable. They can't deal with wonder. See, the scientist wants to not only, he studies the neck entropy of the universe, but he wants to find out where it's plugged in. He's studying it to own it. He wants to put a meter in there. Better still, he wants to unplug it. Well, I want to find out where the universe is plugged in. Where's all that energy come from? Yeah, but it's not plugged in, mate. It's self-sustaining. No, no, no, no, no, no. All that energy has to come from somewhere. See, so they're in their mysteria, the religious man is in his mysteria, and given the science, he could find it. You think he's Nazeem Harameen or he's Walter Russell? He wants to unplug the fucking thing. He goes, where does this work? We own it now. Pace it quick. Get Mr. Rockefeller, put a price on it. Well, see, the universe is too big for you bastards. No, no, no, no, no. So the mystic lives in wonder of it, the unknown, the thing that cannot be answered. If there's no beginning and no end, what is your mind going to do with that theory? Well, that's the sheep from the goats. One man gets all disturbed existentially by that and goes, no, no, no, I'm telling you there was a beginning of all of this. And the other guy goes, I can handle the open-endedness and the wonder of that. I come to the universe now in a different way. Some mystic said, or poet, he said, if the stars came out but once a year, the streets would be filled with people looking up in wonder. Not a person would be in their house. Oh, sure, they come out every day. So why worry about it? Why notice it at all? So we have lost this sense of wonder, right? And that there is God to me. Not God as a Jesus or someone Muhammad or any of that crap. Wonder at the mystery is the godly. And very much on the practical level, then, it is the connection that you have with nature is my answer to that in simple. One could elaborate, but that, I think, sums it up. [Speaker 3] (1:40:16 - 1:40:23) Beautifully answered. Thank you. So with that being said, I guess, if you would have a spiritual practice for you, that would be nature, right? [Speaker 1] (1:40:24 - 1:51:56) Oh, let nature be your guide. Like I said, you could elaborate. There's a lot of things one could get into there. But I think, you know, yeah, the Umweld is the great sustainer, you know, and all that man has created on it is mostly just junk. He prefers it. He's got a taste for junk. And the true sages, they never get hurt. I mean, the really, really important stages. And they come from all walks of life. They're left wing, they're right wing, they're Christian, they're non-Christian, they're atheists. See, I listen to everybody. I'm not interested in anything else. These pearls of wisdom, some of the people, two or three of the people I recommended on that list are Christians. Yeah. For fuck's sake, right? I mean, that doesn't matter to me. If I'm reading Dostoevsky, or I'm reading, you know, Gabriel Marcel or Kierkegaard, I'm not fussed that they're Protestant or Catholic. I'm looking, right? I'm immune to that. I'm looking for the truth. And you're quite right. Yeah, nature is the go to, in many senses, you know. But like I said, you know, I will be doing things on pantheism down the line. This is part of the plan. Because there's also a thing called pan-deism. And there's another thing called pan-entheism. Jesus, you know, all subsumed under sort of a mystical naturalism. Everybody's different take on it. So it's quite an elaborate thing, actually, to get into. But for me, absolutely. Nature is a great mystery. See, you pick up a flower or a leaf or a snowflake, like I said, and there's the geometry of the universe in it. There's the Trinity, there's the pentacle, there's a pentagram. And so you can hold that in your hand. You can't hold God in your hand. You can't hold angels and supernatural realms or heavens and hells in your hand. But I can hold the geometry of the universe as presented to me here and now, visible to my senses. I can examine that snowflake and marvel at the geometry in it, right here and now. And I, the holder, am filled with the phi ratio, my geometry of my even form. I could be ugly as sin, but the universe's mark, its signature, is in my proportions. Phi ratio, Fibonacci series, golden section. I'm marveling at outside, I am its embodiment. I am Anthropos. There's only no fucking Jesus, except in some comic book, you know, beginner lady book level, of go, all right, man of God and all that. No, you are the being of God. You are Adam Kadamon. And as Ayn Rand then puts it in the most concrete way, since you are the head of the food chain and the highest thing, because self-conscious beings are the highest of all things, whether they know it or not, do you have the psychopistemology, in other words, big, fancy, ugly word, to say, do you value that you are a thinking, rational being? Anyone in this planet can think. Even people in Belfast can actually think. But who amongst anyone who's a thinker, is there a completely daily valuation, I am a being? That's psychopistemology. Not just that the person thinks, but that you are aware of the, you're grateful for being that being, and you value it, and you keep it precious. That's a totally different being. That's, you know, if there is a Superman in the Nietzschean sense, Ayn Rand found it. It's the person who is thinking and aware of the preciousness of that thinking, and they are then a very different being. They walk in the world in a totally different way. They're not destructive. So this can be taught to children in five minutes. How come it isn't? Can't we forget? Yeah. Classrooms filled with people told to think, told to think, think about it, think about it, until it melts. You're not thinking like, fuck off. And you're certainly, but in all that teaching, in all the collegiates of the world, and this woman who taught this isn't even included in the dictionaries and encyclopedias of philosophy, but fucking Anton Zizek, right, and Jacques Derrida, and Richard fucking asshole Rorty, they're all front page. But Ayn Rand, who taught one of the most valuable lessons in life, how to value your own capacity to think, and to revere it as religious, as holy, that you are holy, like I said, you embody anyway, but you're not conscious of what you embody. Well, you would fucking take your gods and get out of here. I don't want to know about that. If I'm not holy in myself, if my every thought and action is not a holy one, if my journey, you talked about the hero's journey, right, if I'm not able to bring holiness from within and meaning from within, why are you trying to sell me on some fucking, you know, from the outside circus? Why are you trying to get the organ grinder's monkey to fucking sell me some plastic shit? And look at our world. What is it made of our world? So again, I include Ayn Rand as part of the Western mystical tradition. Funny thing to say, because she was bit down on mysticism. Yeah, but hers is the high mysticism that we need to nurture our being, our very souls, because there is a soul. There is the core under all the armoring and the bullshit and the left brain constructions and the fuck knows what else, the emotional plague. Yeah, there is a true light in there. And if it wasn't, you couldn't tell falsity. A lot of what we're talking about here is the difference between truth and falsity. But if I can examine something that's false, doesn't it presume that that's in contrast to the truth? So the enemy has the keys of our salvation. The evil in the world and the deconstruction in the world, all the falsity in the world, I've said it from day one, the falsity in the world is the key to your liberation. You've got to do the apophatic work, which includes mostly a lot of psychology, because it's not just you running around critiquing other things external to you. It's using that corrosive within to melt away the emotional plague and the stuff that holds you from being an organic, biological being, biophilia, not necrophilia. The people you're meeting all over the world, even though they pay lip service to truth, they're necrophilists. And two minutes looking at their existence can tell you that. How they treat their animals, how they treat their children. In one of the podcasts, I don't know if it was, Age of Manipulation, I showed these pictures of the mothers with their children on these fucking leashes and stuff like that. Oh, yeah, that's just fucking fine, that is. And parents more in control. You know, I know you've had guests on talking about the merits of homeschooling. Yeah, okay. But what about the downsides? We've had John Coleman on, a great educator, four podcasts, people should go and listen to those, because he's a homeschooler educator, too. But there are negative aspects to it. And those need to be brought into the argument as well. But, and Soma, the breaking down of the armoring is another very, very key element, you know, and so there's many factors in this. But the sensitization is very key to what I'm into, you know, that if you, even if there was a God in the way that is presented by religion, wouldn't you need to be highly intuitive and sensitive as a person to even listen to it? Or you think those fuckers on stage in the megachurches, you know, the foolery of it all. But the big father figure, by which my weak identity needs as one of the coordinates to stay, you know, I need my, I need my God, I need my enemies. Well, this is what is inherited when you turn to religion. Like I said, the Christians and the Jews, they are what they are because of enemies. But they're manufactured enemies. If I didn't have one, I'd have to invent it. Because my core identity is based in fucking nothing. So when I talk about mystical naturalism, I'm talking about Odinism, mate. I'm talking about, you know, the ancient traditions of the North and the West, where individualism was born. And it's still in a front outside Western lands, even though now it's been blackened and turned to dust here. There's a different spirit. You know, and of course, anybody talks about that they're shadow banned or de-platformed. But everybody else's tradition is put behind glass. It's sacred. And then this overwritten, a very, very deep archive of knowledge, you know, in our world that is really fine. And that's what when I studied the Irish, the pre-Celts. And the Nordic tradition and all of that, there's something really, really profound. And it has nature out of space. And then the weirdest thing of all, which I show in the Trees of Life books that I did, is that every god is a manifestation of a physical element in nature. All the gods, Jupiter, Zeus, every god in the Indian pantheon. In fact, they let three go that you can actually quickly see. One is Ganesha, who's an elephant. Hanuman, which is a monkey. Because these were the species that we used to live with. And we were in participation with them. You want to know where truth is? In the eyes of an elephant. Or a great whale, if you can find one. I think they got one for the kitties in San Francisco. On the mesa at night with a coyote standing on it. And a little small green patch of grass in Sweden with a little hare sitting on it in the morning dew. I'll tell you where you can find truth. In the black satin wings of a crow. It's all around you. It's all around you. But we have edited that. Umweld needs to be resurrected. Umweld needs to be resurrected. When's the last time you went out and thanked the light? Or talked to it? When did you last welcome the day in the morning when you opened your eyes and saw the light? Did you take it into yourself? Did you welcome it as a brother? Hell no. But you want gods? Yeah. What a tragedy. Yeah. Did you kiss it? The air? The wind? The rain? Did you jump for joy? When's the last time that you, you know, looked at a mountain in awe? Or looked at the sky? Like I said, the stars, they came out. But once a year, no house would be, they'd be emptied. Well, everyone in the whole world would come out to look up. What happened to that wonder? What happened to that astonishment? People are paying lip service to it. And look what the horrors that they're committing on earth all around. Well, you know, it's just a background. It's just a natural stuff. It's just decoration. It's just a background for us. And look how we've treated it. So yeah, you know, you can stuff it. You can stuff your fucking gods and religions. That's not where I'm at. [Speaker 2] (1:51:58 - 1:52:30) I'm right there with you, Michael. Yeah. And I'm blown away too that, you know, we moved more to a natural environment a couple years ago. And, you know, your words you just said, like, are even more of a reminder for me because I could get caught up in my day-to-day and my computer and doing what I have to do. And yet, when I walk outside, I'm not in an urban environment. I hear the sounds of nature like I've never heard them before. And yet, there's times where I take it for granted, you know, instead of maybe sitting down on a chair and looking up for 10 minutes, just. [Speaker 1] (1:52:30 - 2:06:57) Oh, yeah. You know, you never should take it for granted. It's all around you and it's speaking to you constantly. Time is speaking to you. You don't even hear it. Another thing we could go into is, you know, what time is and things like that. And we've bolderized that. We've made that technology, you know, it measures only the falsity of our life. It measures our entire inauthenticity. Time is something so much more than that. Time is your best friend, but you must know how to listen to it, to be guided by it, same as we need to be guided by nature. And there's not much nature left. Some people have access, others don't. But, you know, Maestro Eckhart himself, I think it was, or it was Angelus Silesius said, you know, the rose knows nothing of itself. And yet it gives of its own perfume. It's not just beautiful in its physical self. And Conan Doyle reiterated this in one of his books. The rose is not only beautiful to look at, it exudes even a perfume for you. There's nothing but abundance. There's nothing about, there's only yielding. There's only a manifestation of the cosmic order, or, you know, the universal, the moral universe, as I call it. And that's written inside yourself. Now, the signature of the moral universe was this geometry, you know, in your being, in your actual phi ratio, and all of that. That is the signature, so no thickhead walking around could ever doubt that the mark, the signature of the divine is in them, as well as the fire within that we said, which is the ultimate core. Now, you can call that the photonic energy, you can call it the bioenergy, the prana, the chi, you know, whatever term you want to give to it. That is also, you know, the sort of microcosmic example of the macrocosmic order. But finally, that breaks down the real love of nature. And if you use nature as a guide, these divisions will, you know, pass away. Not so that your individual consciousness is erased, which is what happens with the Gnostic path you asked earlier, or anything about Eastern mysticism, in which you have complete annihilation of identity. No, no, no. Your identity is maximized, right? It's not negated like all the other religions. Nature is not going to do that. Nature has already written in you as an identity. It created your identity. Why would it want to erase it? The horror of these paths, these fucking turban heads and all the rest of them. My God, what lies they've been teaching the world. Yeah, because they want you all dead. They want you spiritually dead. It's like a tyrant like Napoleon or fucking Stalin who wants you physically dead, right? Some psychopath. Do you know what we're ruled by on a higher level? Psychopaths who want us spiritually dead, and they've fucking infected this world with all this fucking Gnosticism and shit. They want you to be spiritually dead. It's not good enough just to take your body. They want your soul. And we don't even know where our greatest friend is. We don't even know where the instructor is. So we become part of the crime. We're turning ourselves into orcs. It's insane. But again, you need that simplicity and that sensitivity. See, these are things you need to lead you to the holy place. And then when you're instructed in that, there's no erasure of your identity, as is promised in Christianity. I'm going to marriage with God. There'll be no more me or any of the other junk. No, the true self is brought forth, the imperial self, which walks. What a violation. Half the religions we believe in are violent. They're telling you about the erasure of the self, like it is in a collective group where yourself is basically erased. Well, all the religions are promising that, but they have to do it. They give you a carrot first, right? Obviously. Nature asks nothing from you of such a thing. It will only embellish your sense of self because it wants the love affair. It wants you to fall in love with it. Well, how the fuck is that going to be an erasure of your identity? So, you know, it's not your enemy, and therefore there can be no conflict. Even in the conflict of nature, what has its conflictual elements, that's to teach you something. That's an incredible story there, you know, which one can't get into. But the proof of what I'm saying, though, is in almost, and I'm not one of these, you know, climate gay types or whatever, you know, we have destroyed nature. There is also an element of truth to that, that there is a great violation of nature. It can be corrected. And ultimately, anything that we do to violate nature is not going to affect nature. That's why I'm not one of these World Economic Forum, you know, people who believe in extinction events and all of that. When I say nature, I'm talking about something so vast that anything we do is so insignificant, you can't even measure it. It's also a part of our egoism to believe that we can really change the planet or the, what do they call it, you know, the temperature and the climate. Yeah, I think I smell a bit of egotism in there, mate. You can kill all of the life, you can kill all the planet. It isn't going anywhere. You are going to implode. Killing that planet is killing ourselves. We'll be the ones gasping. So that's just nonsense. But nevertheless, there is an instinct within us, a deep antipathy to nature, the counterpoint of what I've been talking about, whereby we have destroyed nature. We're destroying it all the time. And then we're putting up ugly buildings that have no features and no aesthetic, you know, qualities and all of the rest of it. So that is just the cities themselves, the concrete, the steel, they can be made differently. Some places have done it. But no, that's all gone. And even quite beautiful cities have been transformed into ugly, ugly places. So that also factors into this, that there's something in us that is so deeply antithetical to nature, the natural order. And I've explored that from my first books about what that is and how it came about. And that ancestral trauma, until we've dealt with that and unplugged it, we're not really going to be able to go back to nature in any kind of healthy way, no matter what. And that's pretty awful, because there is a wound. Nature did, in fact, wound us, or at least that was our perception. And from thousands of years ago, we then sort of hate nature for what we perceived that it did at times of the great cataclysms. So this is a wound. This is an aberration of consciousness that needs to be dealt with. And that's why psychology is also very needed. When I say these things, I mean it. One has to go in there. And of course, you can do it personally, in which you just go back to nature in a different way. You actually do it by going and reintroducing yourself to nature. But we don't do that. We bungee jump. We skydive. We surf. We go to nature, all right, as a recreational theme park. No, that's not quite what I meant. Not that I'm negating those things. That's one mode of going into nature. But it's not the ultimate spiritual way that really matters. It's going to be how you—see, remember, it's not going to nature. It's the way that you go to nature is really better said. It's the way that you do things, not the what that you're doing. So the New Agers and all these religions, you're reading the manual, reading the instructions, and it's the what. Oh, you know, I'm a Christian, ain't I? I'm a fucking Jehovah's Witness, ain't I? No, no. How are you those things? And in terms of what we're talking about, it's not just going to nature. Any idiot can do that. In fact, there's people who live in nature exclusively. It doesn't mean they're one iota better. Look at farmers. Some of the biggest destroyers of nature are the ones who live in it. So don't get me wrong. It's not like, oh, I live in nature. I'm a hermit. How do I know what you're thinking? It's not the going to nature. It's the way in which you move into it and walk into it and the intention that you have to greet it, to have open eyes, to be sensitive to it, and to let it instruct you. So all the clatter, all the noise of our life is to prevent us from doing that, actually. The fact that there's no silence anymore, not even at night, that the lights in the city are continually on, so you can't even see the stars or the horizon or anything. You can't hear the coyote howling. Like I said, the Vedic tradition, all its gods were originally based. So you had Hanuman, and you had Ganesha, and then you even had Shiva. Shiva comes from a god called Pashupati, who is exactly identical to Hearn, the pre-Celtic god of the West. Remember, I was lauding the West? Yeah, those gods got over, and they were natural. The fire god, Agni, the sky god, and on and on it goes. All the gods of the original Indian pantheon are based in fire. In fact, the entire history, all Sanskrit, the whole language is based on birdsong, all the sounds of Sanskrit and Urdu. In Africa, their entire pantheon of gods is based in insects, butterflies, dragonflies. When's the last time you've seen a hare? When's the last time you've seen a hedgehog? Yeah, and those are still there. Shiva was Pashupati, lord of the deer, the stag god, and in India it was anthropomorphized as Shiva, but it's an animal god. The farther you go back in any of these pantheons, you find the animals. The Egyptian gods mostly all have animal heads. Any fucking wild guess why that is? Because in Africa, the insects, especially the baboon, and they would really meticulously listen to the sounds of the baboon, and they found that the calls of the baboon synchronized with the moon cycle. So, it became the moon god. You see how it works? So, all the different gods you could name represent the nature, the natural elements, until the priests got hold of it. Well, fuck on any of that, right? And they had you under their control, and nature is then denigrated by these Gnostic groups. Gnosticism is nothing more than the most ultimate form of the negation of nature, where the world is nothing but a prison of the soul, and even your body is included in that. Some nasty, horrible, smelly thing. Enlightenment is meaning getting away from it as fast as possible. But along comes Gerald Massey, along comes Alvin Boyd-Kuhn, and goes, yeah, that thinking is the Maya. The illusion you're caught in is not the nature of the cage of the soul, it's your attitude toward it, you fucking… And out goes a whole of Eastern mysticism, leaving fucking, what, two guys left in the room? The whole thing has been… Can you throw it out under one genius's thought? You see through the whole thing? Fucking Alexander the Great, sword right through the Gordian nut? I worship those people, yeah. Those are the altars you need to start building, mate. But, you know, otherwise you're going through it, and following a tradition, my peer, where they were Sikhs, or they were Hindus, or they were the Jains, or they were… I'm just following right along with that. And I'll tell you that almost every religion that you could even name goes back to nature of worship, by the way. They call it pagan now, yeah, what the fuck? But when you even look at the meanings of those words, you'll find out something extraordinary, you know, that the word heathen just meant one who wouldn't conform. Did you know that the word idiot goes back to Rome, Latin, which means one who wouldn't conform? That's actually what the word idiot means, is the one who doesn't conform and listen to anybody else. Here he sits. Three of us. Three idiots. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at this, it's just unbelievable. Well, that's conformity, because, again, conformity is the man, the little man, who needs not only the crowd to secure him, but he needs the enemy, and every crowd has its enemy. Look at our streets today. And so the man who steps aside from the crowd, like I recommended, people start with Colin Wilson's wonderful books, The Outsider and Beyond the Outsider. It's a great introductory, easy to read, brilliant writer, brilliant man. You're the outsider at that point. And with that outsidership comes a lot of good, but also then the feeling of being ostracized and cut off. And for a lot of people, you know, especially beta types, they can't handle it. So they have to go back and knock on the door, let me in, I'll conform even more. Sorry for being Captain Kirk and asking God why he needs a spaceship. And so look at our world today. Look at our world today. And if there is, see, don't forget, they've cut us off at the past. They know that you can't live as a complete conformist all your life. So they create pseudo individualism, faux versions of religion and spirituality, the New Age movement. They got you, they know that you couldn't live as a prisoner in chains of iron, so they give you chains of gold. You go, fucking brilliant, love this, this is great. The enslaved, right? Yeah, right. The enslaved and yourself enslaved. So they've got, they know that you can't live just as some urban moron. So they provided a million different paths for you, right? And sure, I'm not saying it's easier than to find the greats. Nobody's saying that. I'm not talking about spinner rack shit. But what I've done instead is commit 30 years of my life to, you know, being a public figure in this minor way, in order to then, you know, be a go-to so that, you know, at least the recommendations I would make, and it was great that you asked, you know, that's my job is just to be a signpost, a lollipop man to say, you know, well, I think I'd try that out. But it doesn't mean that you'll like it. It doesn't mean that you won't throw it down. A vast majority of people I've ever, you know, spoken to in that way, actually have rejected and gone right back to Christianity or to Gnosticism. That's quite painful to see, but it's inevitable. You'd be dumb if you didn't realize that there's going to be, you know, a blowback on some of these things. Because as I said, being an outsider is very, very difficult. It may mean, you know, leaving a lot behind and changing your thinking in ways that cause you a lot of grief. So there's not an easy road by any means. [Speaker 2] (2:06:58 - 2:07:39) Yeah. Well, we can keep talking and talking and talking. And Mike, Michael, I really appreciate you coming on. For anyone that's listening, go to Unslaved. That platform changed my life, had a huge impact on my wife as well. I've told this story before, but we did a road trip, I don't know how many years ago, and it was a 25-hour drive. And all we did was listen to Unslaved episodes for 25 hours on the road trip from Switzerland to Rome. And it had a huge impact on me. So thank you, man. I tell you this all the time. I got love for you, bro. I really do. And I really appreciate you, man. [Speaker 1] (2:07:40 - 2:07:42) You listen to the audio, right? [Speaker 2] (2:07:42 - 2:07:57) Yeah, the MP3 is great. Yeah, we were just listening to them. So go to Unslaved.com, go to MichaelDesarian.com to see everything Michael's done. Anything else you want to share? Joel, you want to say anything? [Speaker 3] (2:07:57 - 2:08:37) I just, there's absolutely no doubt that Unslaved is the cutting edge for any single human being on this path. Anyone truly looking to really develop a sense of authenticity to get to the real bottom of things and to understand the truth and to see the world in new eyes. And to actually come to a place where you can exalt yourself, you can begin to cleanse yourself, develop your own psychic hygiene, and then you can use yourself as the mirror to see the beauty that does exist all around you. I'll just echo everything that the rest of us have said. And I greatly appreciate the fact that you're here, Michael, and we can share this conversation. So thank you. [Speaker 1] (2:08:37 - 2:10:50) Yeah, yeah. Members are making it possible beyond, you know, my expectations, actually. And they're seeking for psychic sovereignty. You're right. Psychic hygiene is the attribute of the outsider. That's why it's difficult. He's got to now work on his psychic sovereignty. He's got to work on his discernment. He's got to do this apophatic learning. And, you know, moving from just good skepticism, it's good to be skeptical, but then to build upon that, because skepticism can be very corrosive. And then you don't, you find out there's nothing built. So, you know, that's a good place to start. But then, you know, the next part is to then find what is your vocation. It's quite easy in life to find people who know what they don't want to do. They get a star for that. But wait a minute, knowing what you don't want to do can be all lifelong. How do you find out what you want to do? How do you find what you're here for, you know, on this planet? And people have a very vague idea of what that is. So they need some direction. This is a flaw I've noticed a lot. But it's our members that, you know, keep this going so that I can get this lifetime of knowledge out. And you guys have been on the show. You know, I recommend people go listen to those, because the last one we did with Erasmus there was on human design. I mean, that's just absolutely fucking mind-boggling. You know, we've done ones with you, Joel, as well. So, you know, you guys are welcome back on the show in the future to dig into more different things. You've had some fine guests yourself on there. Stunning stuff, actually, some of them. So, yeah, it's all good, you know. And you see messages of truth going out, and then you see it being de-platformed, right? Things like that. Isn't that exactly what we're saying? Right? That we're not taught. A lot of what we're dealing with is blocks. I said it in Architects of Control. If man is not flying with the wings that he's already been given toward the truth and the real, there's blocks in the way. And so we must discover what those blocks are. And then discovering them for ourselves, we'll just fucking head up the mountain path, remove that block for the ones coming behind you. Yeah. So, guys, thanks a lot. [Speaker 2] (2:10:51 - 2:11:18) Yeah. And real quick, you mentioned Architects of Control. Anyone listening, watching this, go check out Architects of Control, too. You know, that's something that impacted me early on and something that's coming to me right now. You have a great program on psychic vampirism, which is incredible. And I think necessary to have the psychic hygiene to sniff out some of these characters in your lives. That's a whole other conversation. We'll have to get you on to talk about psychic vampirism. [Speaker 1] (2:11:19 - 2:11:23) Yeah. It's a great subject, actually. Guys, thanks. Thanks so much for today. [Speaker 3] (2:11:24 - 2:11:29) No, absolute pleasure, Michael. Hey, quickly, did you end up finding out your human design type? No, no. [Speaker 1] (2:11:30 - 2:11:38) I haven't gone that far. This is all new to me, the human design thing. So I tend to pursue it, you know. I love all of that stuff. Yeah. And it seemed very valid, you know. [Speaker 3] (2:11:40 - 2:12:32) Yeah. I look forward to exploring it further. It's very, very, very interesting. Guys, thank you so much for listening to this episode. Michael, absolute pleasure. And we'll see you guys next time. Same here, mate. Sometimes in life, things come full circle. And for me, that was 100% one of those moments. What we have, our meeting, this podcast, our group coaching program, none of it would be possible if it wasn't for Unslaved and if it wasn't for the work of the man you just listened to for two hours, Michael Tasarian, who's an absolute legend and a treasure on this planet and in this community. That being said, also, guys, we've just launched round three of Rise Above The Herd. New dates have been announced. So if you are interested and would like to apply, you can now do so at riseabovetheherd.com.au. We thoroughly hope you enjoyed that episode and we'll see you next time.