Bernhard Guenther & Laura Matsue Evolutionary Relationships

[Speaker 4] (0:00 - 0:15) You are now listening to the Here For The Truth Podcast, hosted by Joel Raffitti and Yerasimos. What's up, everybody? Welcome to episode 94 of Here For The Truth. [Speaker 3] (0:15 - 1:46) Today we have two previous guests joining us together, Bernard Gunther and Laura Matsu. These are two incredible individuals, but also a husband and wife. And today we're going to talk about evolutionary relationships and how we can use relationships as a vehicle to actually grow in consciousness and become more aware and more awake, should we so choose. Right before we bring Bernard and Laura on, just wanted to remind our listeners that we have now opened the doors to round four of Rise Above The Herd. So if you're interested in getting deep, in doing the work, in understanding yourself on a deeper level, in building true, authentic self-esteem, and learning how to create real value and putting it out in the world, because as you know, we cannot depend on these systems around us anymore. So it's up to you as an individual to take the necessary steps to build your life according to your own values. As we know, obviously the majority of you listening probably don't share values with mainstream society and the systems at this point in time. All their episodes can be found at hereforthetruth.com. Please rate, review, subscribe wherever you're listening. And this was a really incredible, raw, real conversation. And we hope you enjoy it. Take care. All right, everybody, welcome to episode 94 of Here For The Truth podcast. We have our good friends and husband and wife duo, Laura Matsu and Bernard Gunther in the house today. Both previous guests of our platform. Laura had slightly more plays than Bernard, but that's all right. [Speaker 1] (1:46 - 1:47) Oh, really? [Speaker 2] (1:50 - 1:51) I see. [Speaker 1] (1:53 - 1:58) I think I talked about astrology on that one. The astrology podcasts always go well, actually. [Speaker 3] (1:59 - 2:03) Well, we don't know because YouTube removed us, but that's all right. Oh, yeah. [Speaker 1] (2:03 - 2:05) Oh, my God. Yeah, that's crazy. [Speaker 3] (2:05 - 2:33) It's all good. We keep moving forward. Yeah. So like, since obviously 2020, the way individuals have navigated relationships have been a huge catalyst for their growth on their truth seeking journey, on the journey of authenticity, or it's kind of been something that's subdued people as a result as well. So I really want to discuss what evolutionary relationships are from the bottom up. What does that mean to you? And we'll go from there. Whoever wants to go first. [Speaker 2] (2:34 - 2:34) All right. [Speaker 1] (2:35 - 2:35) You go first. [Speaker 2] (2:35 - 4:47) I go first. Okay. Well, evolutionary relationships, the way we see it, or like what I understand it, is using relationships as a vehicle for evolution, you know, for evolution, soul evolution, for self work, to do more inner work, they're growth oriented, really understanding that both individuals, right, have their separate growth trajectory, so to speak, but it's happening within a unit of relationship. And we can use stuff that comes up in relationship, which most people call, you know, label as conflict arguments or triggers, whatever, you know, as a deeper insight into ourselves, if we apply, for example, basic shadow work triggers, childhood wounding, or any form of trauma work, just the basic psychological or somatic work, we can use it as a vehicle to become more aware of our stuff, so to speak, integrate more and help each other. I think that's a key point of evolutionary astrology relationships as well, that both parties can help each other to become aware, so to speak, and use almost like as a catalyst for your own self work, because I can speak for myself, you know, when I was single for a long time into Pagan Canyon, living in the woods by myself for like, almost 15 years, literally. And then out of these 15 years, I was single for seven or eight years. And I was deeply immersed in the work I'm doing now studying doing self work going really deep, you know, but I also hit the wall because I was realized there's only so much quote unquote self work we can do by yourself, right. So naturally, next step was kind of like, you know, engaging more in what we call conscious relationship and conscious relationship kind of relates to evolutionary relationships. And there's almost like a paradox because no relationship is truly conscious. Right? For me, a conscious relationship is that we make the unconscious conscious right to really be more aware of what's happening. And again, use that as a vehicle for growth, and use each other as mirrors, you know, not that the relationship is all about work and processing all the time. But you can, you know, also help each other kind of self realize or self actualize, you know, as there's this great quote, I like from I forgot his name, but the author of The Little Prince and that true love is not looking into each other's eyes, but gazing into the same direction. [Speaker 1] (4:48 - 6:27) Yeah, basically, we've seen that relationships can go in two ways, like sleep or wakefulness. So you can use relationships to kind of, kind of prop up your insecurities, make you feel better about yourself, you know, just puts you to sleep or comfort you. And that's fine, you know, occasionally, or you can use relationships to wake you up. And that is not for everyone, I think it takes a certain type of person and you really actually have to be committed to that path yourself to want someone to help you with it. Because it's not easy, like, him and I call each other out all the time. And we have to like, learn how to deliver it in a very compassionate way, because it's not easy to have someone see so clearly what's going on with you pointed out in service of helping you become a better person. So that's what we're kind of seeing. And we're seeing a lot of people basically want deeper relationships, but they have no idea how to get there. Like, they're so like, it's ridiculous, some of the stuff that we see in our, in our programs, and like, you know, they're really good people, and really, you know, heart centered, lovely people, but their relationships are total mess and disaster. And so we see that there's a lot of work that needs to be done, even beyond the regular psychological work, which is, I think, is the foundation, but really, like, you know, getting clear on rather than using relationships to just kind of, like, keep you secure, or, you know, to have like an identity in the world is like, what are your relationships really about? And if you're on the path of awakening, the quickest way is to actually surround yourself with people on the same path who can actually point out things that you can't see yourself. [Speaker 3] (6:28 - 7:04) Yeah, what, what do you think is the biggest challenge for people, obviously, individuals that maybe haven't done certain levels of deep inner work, or haven't done the work to, let's say, have a more regulated nervous system that then they get into these relationships, and there is chaos. So like, what do you recommend that they do? Because, you know, for myself and my wife, I think, like you both said, you know, we call out each other, we call each other out, but we've done a certain amount of work where we have the capacity to hold space for for what they're saying and to listen, and then to look in the mirror and to take responsibility. Yeah, you know, I think that's such a big thing, instead of just playing the blame game left and right. [Speaker 1] (7:04 - 7:53) Totally. And it really, you know, I think you need to do a certain amount of self work before you even get into a relationship, because the nature of the partner you choose is really key, actually. And so if you get into a relationship with someone who isn't interested in accelerated growth, or even interested in changing whatsoever, you know, you're going to be their worst nightmare if you're a growth orientated person. So the first step would be look at the nature of the partners you choose, and see if that's a continuation of like unhealthy childhood patterns. And there's definitely work to be done. And I don't think people need to be fully healed before they enter in a relationship. I think most stuff actually just comes up in relationship, and you don't know, but you want to understand the nature of your own values and the people you're choosing to be with, because that's the first critical step where people probably get derailed. [Speaker 2] (7:53 - 9:13) Actually, there are massive a book that really, I really recommend that helped me a lot in my process, dealing with, you know, healing from relationships and understanding my own patterns. It's called how to be an adult in relationships by David Rico. And he beautifully combines shadow work with some Buddhism, spiritual work with the hero's journey, kind of like tying that into the relationship aspect. And he mentioned, like, you know, in order to be in a growth oriented or conscious relationship, you must have done already 50% on self work on yourself, like Laura said, and I'm thinking to myself 50%. How do you gauge that? Right. But basically, what he meant is just an arbitrary number, symbolic number, but he means that you have done enough self work or understand enough of basic psychological concepts that you are self aware enough to know when you get triggered, right, then not, you know, become and don't project on the other person or the fall in the blame game. So you have a certain awareness doesn't mean that you're fully healed. But you know how to apply it. Now, with your question, if you know, relationship and stuff comes up and know, both parties don't know how to handle it. I mean, that's tricky, because most relationship, the vast majority of relationships, they break up because they don't know, don't know how to don't understand relationship psychology, don't understand themselves, they mistake the romantic phase for love. And that's why they look for the next partner next over and over again divorces and all of that. [Speaker 1] (9:14 - 9:14) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (9:14 - 9:32) But you know, if both people are, you know, not, I think, ideally, then both people would engage in the self or go learn about it, which is easier said than done, because usually now experiences working with people in couples, it's mostly one person more, quote, unquote, wakes up wants to do the work and the other person is kind of lagging behind. [Speaker 1] (9:32 - 9:53) So yeah, but then also people can use that as a that's a very common projection people have is like, they'll, they'll read like a self help book. And then they'll be like, you need to do this instead of me. And then they immediately project on their partner, when it's actually more interesting to see how when you apply this work, and you truly change how that can also change your relationship as well. [Speaker 3] (9:53 - 10:18) Yeah, I love that that in terms of like, sometimes you don't need the other person to change if you just do what you have to do and focus on your work. Yeah, the dynamic shifts. I've seen it. I've seen it in myself. I've seen it in the relationships that I witnessed around me that like this idea of wanting to control the other person, let me change you, let me change you. It's like, well, if you just change yourself, who knows how that's going to shift the harmonics between you and your partner. [Speaker 2] (10:18 - 10:27) Totally. Exactly. And that's what we had to watch out to because we're both very knowledgeable. And I've been there, man. [Speaker 3] (10:27 - 10:44) I totally get it. It's like if anyone who's done like even parts work, you know, it's like you start doing all these these studies, and then you get you gain this part. It's like the psychological knower, one that knows has the answers, it's going to point out everything. And it's like, that's not a place, a place to come from. [Speaker 2] (10:45 - 11:31) Yeah, but it's a key point, especially like Joe mentioned the past two years, because a lot of people will see that wanted to be more around like minded people, right, especially if this what's happening in the to be on the same page regarding the medical treatment and all the other craziness that's happening in the world. But, you know, people can use this also as a bypass and avoidance, because it's not just about being like minded people, this intellectual understanding, you know what I mean? Too many people I fell into this trap many years ago, myself, they want to almost be with a copy of themselves. Like you need to believe exactly the same things as I do. And then it's the only way it can be in relationship. Yes, there need to be certain alignment and values of worldview and all of that. But more importantly, it's really the growth oriented aspect of the inner work rather than this kind of intellectual alignment of belief system. [Speaker 3] (11:32 - 12:09) Yeah, I also think people they think that like their relationships are supposed to be like totally peaceful and calm. And they're not supposed to get into any arguments where it's like, I think how you like how you engage in conflict, and then when you step away, and you're reflecting on your role in that, and then you can come back and communicate in a certain way. And both parties take responsibility for the role in it. That's where the bond deepens and grows, like, because spiritual bypass can find itself in a relationship, especially if you're, if you're a spiritual person, and you're like, well, no, everything has to be great and love and light. And we can't argue. And if we're arguing, that means our relationship is doomed, which I think is further from the truth. [Speaker 1] (12:10 - 13:03) Yeah, that's the romantic projections, I just want to maintain this like idealist image of love. I think that's also, you know, certain people, I've noticed from doing astrology charts, like, you know, if someone already has like a lot of Pluto contacts or squares in their charts, they tend to like growth, well, they tend to be on the path of growth, whether they realize it or not. And then some people do like things easier. So you also have to look at the nature of the person like, you know, like, we're very Plutonian, we're very compatible with each other, you know, but it does get intense sometimes. But if when I was in relationships with people who weren't interested in growth, and probably stayed the same way that they were since high school, basically, it didn't work out because our growth rates were really different as well. So you want to like consider that when you're in a relationship is like, you may like growth to the like, you know, 10th 10th level, but this other person may like to more slow, steady change or may not even want to change at all. [Speaker 2] (13:03 - 13:16) Yeah, I mean, conflict is, I mean, there's two types of relationships. Some like, based on this, this model, we started what's her name again, Alan Bader, relationship therapist. [Speaker 1] (13:16 - 13:18) Are you talking about that? Yeah, okay. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (13:19 - 13:19) You want to share? [Speaker 1] (13:19 - 14:58) Yeah, I can share about that. I can I can explain a bit better. So there's basically in developmental couples psychology, you know, after the romantic phase ends is this really important phase called differentiation. And there's two types of couples, and couple styles in that differentiation stage, you know, this is where you come apart again from that romantic phase, and you start to usually fight and have conflict, etc. One of them is a hostile, angry couple. So these people get in very big fights. And that's not to be a judgment, like we actually get in like pretty explosive fights when we go at it. But then there's a conflict avoiding couple who never want to talk about anything, and just push things under the rug. So both of them need to learn conflict management strategies and differentiation, differentiation, meaning like learning how to listen to what your partner share a different perspective than you or even feedback about you that you don't like, without kind of taking it personally and getting too enmeshed with their kind of experience, like just allowing them to be their own person and speak, you know, a different point of view, or even point out things that they don't like about you, or maybe characteristic show characteristic tricks that you don't really like in them. And so that's a really important phase so that you guys can also maintain your individuality. And then there's a coming together again after that. But most couples break up because of failed differentiation. And like, you know, the con the hostile couple who like battle it out, they maintain the passion, but they're kind of also trying to keep each other the same and their fights, you know, whereas the conflict avoidant one, they tend to just push things under the rug. And they're kind of like, I don't know if you ever guys ever know couples where it's like, they're kind of like ships passing the night and their roommates at that point, and they don't have an emotional bond. That's that more avoidant couple. [Speaker 2] (14:59 - 15:49) So yeah, ironically, actually, you know, you can be in a relationship. So it's quality of a quantity, people can be in relation for 2030 years, but be conflict avoidance. So there's a lot of things unsaid, they don't do anything, they're just, you know, I'm in the void, because there's also codependency, just happen as well, because they're just kind of like not actually talking to each other anymore. And actually, according to Alan Beiter, that relationship therapist, so what we started, she said that more hostile, angry couples, they actually more care more about the relation and really want to work things out rather than conflict avoidant. And so it's commerce, you know, but it ties into what you said, there's a stigma around like, when you know, Hollywood, romanticism, programming, or spiritual stuff about the twin flame nonsense, and all of that, that you're always in harmony, and everything is blissful, and you have always the greatest sex and love, and everything goes just up into the sunset, you know? [Speaker 3] (15:49 - 16:01) Yeah. Can you actually talk a little bit about the twin flame thing, if you want, just because people bring that up. I mean, I just see it constantly for the last, I don't know, 10 years on Facebook or social media, just over and over and over again. [Speaker 1] (16:01 - 16:11) And I'm just like, okay, yeah, it's just like new age romantic projections, basically, like, yeah, it's basically that there's, there's truth to the concept to it. Yeah, there's truth to it. [Speaker 2] (16:11 - 16:49) Yes, I can share a little bit from there's a tag tradition, like as a tag Christianity, which is something I've dove deep and not to mistaken with the dogmatic Christian religion, right? There's the, I'm sure you guys know, the inner circle as a tag teachings. And there's a work I studied by Boris Mraviev, the Gnosis trilogy, G-N-O-S-I-S. And he talks about the polar couple, the fifth way, right? Of doing as a tag work together with a man and woman that are polar, and they have a certain polarity, not to mistaken with the polarity teachings out there, which is a whole other can of worms. [Speaker 3] (16:49 - 16:50) We'll get to that. We'll get to that. [Speaker 2] (16:54 - 17:43) So meaning they are suited for each other. But the key aspect of them, of that kind of quote, unquote, twin flame union is that they're both partners have done enough as a tag work that they're connected to essence and can recognize the other. Sri Aurobindo talks in the same concept about the spiritual union, the psychic union, but there's certain prerequisites. And number one prerequisite that both men and women have to be evolved to a certain level of being to be able to connect to essence and recognize the other person on that level. And you cannot actually truly have that union unless you are already developed to a certain level. And this new edge distortion, I mean, I looked at the different signs of the twin flame union. And like it reads to me, like if you understand basic psychology or trauma bond, trauma bond, like classic avoided attachment, what was it? Chaser? [Speaker 1] (17:43 - 17:44) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (17:44 - 17:45) Hunter or something like that. [Speaker 1] (17:45 - 17:47) Yeah. They have all these. Yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (17:47 - 18:20) You know, and then it ties also another work of my colleague and friend, Eve Lorgan, the love by the dark side of Cupid, which is really like more cold interferences in relationships and the counterfeit twin flames. So this is a whole other issue within that as well. But yeah, I think the twin flame stuff is just a lot of traumatized people, like using that as a special bypass. They get themselves into, you know, situations that, that are extremely, extremely, you know, but they're lying to themselves in the sense of what the relationship is really all about and trying to make it into something which it is not. [Speaker 1] (18:20 - 19:11) And I have, but I have to say, you know, the fact that it's so compelling to a lot of people in the spiritual community shows that like, it's of mythological importance right now. Like people want that kind of relationship that's more spiritually orientated. I think it's just, whoever designed the checklist for what a twin flame is. It's just, you can see that they don't understand basic relationship psychology. Actually they're like, if they run away, if they're married to someone else, when you meet them, that's a good sign. And it's like, oh my God, like these are all red flags. And so I think that people are drawn to this because they want deeper, like soul based relationships, basically based on true self to true self, not the persona, which is, which is most matrix relationships are just like, you have the right persona for me. I have the right persona. We make each other look good, but on an essence level, they may be even repelled by each other. [Speaker 2] (19:11 - 19:36) Yeah, you're right. I think that's what we see. There's definitely almost the collective need for deeper relationships and everything because something is happening. We cannot deny it in the positive sense. I see a quote unquote awakening, right? That's why guys, you do your work, we do our work. There's something that's happening, right? The friction is increasing. So relationship naturally to change. So people are looking for something more deeper, more profound, but then they can easily latch on these concepts. [Speaker 3] (19:37 - 19:41) So let's correct it. What are some of the green flags for like a positive relationship? [Speaker 1] (19:44 - 19:49) Well, first you got to know yourself, know your values, you know, like what's really important to you. [Speaker 2] (19:49 - 20:43) I think like speaking for myself, like a member, you know, the worst time, the most difficult relationships, which really, really bad relationships in the sense of really like, disillusionment, difficult breakups, when I became very desperate. Yeah, yeah, looking for a partner, I gotta need a partner, you know what I mean, with all the projections. And before going to green flag, the red flag was actually is the is almost a romantic, like the projection, the butterflies in the tummy, like, Oh, my God, you think about this person all the time. When Laura and I met, it was more like a sober recognition, you know, not not in a sense, yeah, that was kind of emotions involved. And obviously, like traction, but was not as overwhelming, like, Oh, my God, you know, she's the one and all of that. There was a deeper knowing there was more like, I don't know, there was a came from a deeper knowing place rather than just an emotional infatuation, if that makes sense. [Speaker 1] (20:44 - 21:19) Yeah. I think you're also describing secure attachment, because I think that like, you know, securely attached people who are really are looking for a long term relationship, enter into relationships a bit differently, whereas with your insecurely attacks, you just fall head over heels for this person, ignore the red flags, you know, so you really want to look at the nature of how you attach to people and what you're looking for, you know, and also the desperation to the desperation is usually a sign that there's a part of you who desperately needs love and doesn't think it's worthy of love. And so that's why you're desperately trying to make this person quote unquote, love you or give you attention. [Speaker 2] (21:19 - 22:19) Yeah, I'm running in my case, the moment I stopped looking for relationships, then, you know, and I kind of like I'm focused more on becoming all of them myself. But then, as I mentioned before, then I noticed like, okay, you know, there's only so much stuff, I feel kind of the need coming to be in a relationship, you know, but it came off from a more healthy place rather than desperation place, meaning I was not attached to it. I wasn't even like, quote unquote, looking or you know, like the not even engaging the will felt more than putting your intention out. And even Gurdjieff said, or basically, or was it Carl Jung, I mean, you know, with the shadow projection, as you guys probably know, there's positive projection, right, the golden shadow, we overlay onto somebody, it's like, Oh, put them on a pedestal, that's kind of the romantic phase. And the more you have this kind of romantic phase, the more projections are involved, right? So the harder will be the fall. So the more you've worked on yourself integrated your shadow, actually, the less intense will be the romantic phase. That's almost counter intuitive. Hollywood, right? [Speaker 1] (22:20 - 22:48) Projections will be more, they'll be there for sure. You don't want to say they're not gonna be there whatsoever. But there'll be less intense, you won't just think, oh, like, basically, when people fall in love, they substitute the person that they're falling in love with for their relationship to the divine, basically. So if you feel connected to something higher or deeper purpose in your life, you're not gonna make one person like this kind of whole, like, you know, holier than thou relationship, which is what a lot of people do in the beginning phases. [Speaker 3] (22:49 - 23:54) Yeah, yeah, I totally hear you. When I first moved to LA, 2013, I was a big change moving from New York City to Los Angeles. And I went through like, like a dark night of the soul. And I got into two short term relationships that like, I probably wouldn't have gotten into prior. But being in California, what am I doing with my life? Am I going to continue on this acting path? Am I going to continue on the personal development path? I didn't know. And I just got attached and desperate and wanting connection. And these were relations that just weren't ideal for me. And at the same time, they were what I needed for my growth, because they woke something up within me and to have an ending of a relationship in a certain way that had never happened before. It was definitely a deep teaching for me and kind of like, crumbled me in some way, but I think prepared me for when my when I met my wife, like, we met in like, somatic bodywork training, you know, we were just friends for like, six months. First, we like enjoy, we enjoyed each other. We were like, Oh, wow, someone I could talk about psychology with and all these interesting things. It didn't have that same like, that like hunger and that hook that some of these other types of relationship have. And I just felt like, yeah, just it was a relationship that started in a completely new way. [Speaker 1] (23:54 - 24:35) And here we are eight years later and doing our thing, you know, yeah, there's also this psychological concept called repetition, compulsion, where you feel like a compulsion to repeat the early childhood relationships and attempt to heal it. So when we feel this intense, like falling in love, and we don't even consider this, what is this? What kind of life is this person like, who is this person, you know, in front of me, it's a high probability that we're repeating something in the past and attempt for our psyche to resolve it not realizing that, like, I mean, you kind of learn the lesson from that experience. But we've seen people get caught in that repetition, compulsion for like decades, literally, and not realize that they're stuck in this negative cycle. That's just showing them that something needs to be looked at within themselves. [Speaker 2] (24:35 - 24:54) Yeah, but you made some two very important points. Number one, that any relationship we ever had, was the perfect relationship we needed. And we could only have at that moment, right? Too many people go back regret or blame their partner, blame game and all the time. But if you understand that you only attract that which you need to learn from and work your level of being. [Speaker 3] (24:54 - 24:54) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (24:55 - 24:56) So the deep lessons within that. [Speaker 3] (24:56 - 25:42) Yeah. And that that relationship I had, like, it was the first time I was broken up with, you know, usually I had, I had, yeah, I had the control. And I was like, ah, you know, and yet, like, even in those moments of like, just the deep pain and just laying in my bed or in the bathtub, whatever, like I had enough of consciousness where it was like, you're awesome. This is the medicine you need. You know, and in that moment of my life, like, I was just allowing it to be there. Like I had been off all substances. I wasn't partying. I wasn't trying to go like, fuck the pain away. You know, I was like, listen, let's just let's just embrace this. Let's take this all in. And it was painful. But I think it was it was necessary for me. I don't think I would be the man I am to my husband today if I didn't have that experience. [Speaker 1] (25:43 - 25:43) I'm sorry. [Speaker 3] (25:44 - 26:23) Sorry. Did I say husband? Did I say I wouldn't be the man I am to my husband? Yeah, I think I think I'm, uh, I think I'm, uh, yeah. Don't add us like that. Everyone, episode 93, Joel Urasova, let's go back to the content. But yeah, I don't think I'd be the man to my wife that that I think, you know, she deserved and even for myself. So anyways, I think that's gonna be a real bro. That's gonna be a real that'll be. I'll counterbalance this argument. I guess my wife and I connected from a definitely insecure place after listening to all this. I told my wife I loved her within the first 45 minutes of us meeting. [Speaker 1] (26:23 - 26:24) Oh, my God. [Speaker 3] (26:24 - 26:43) We pretty much lived together ever since. But in hindsight, I definitely see the places we're coming from. It's been an extreme amount of work to get to where we are now. But even from that starting point, for anyone listening, um, if there is a deeper essence of shared values, if you are on the same path, this can still be corrected. [Speaker 1] (26:43 - 26:51) Yes, yes. At any point in time, you can correct it, actually, even decades into the wrong path. [Speaker 2] (26:51 - 27:16) And also, but I mean, we also, you know, Laura obviously works in astrology, composite charts, each relationship is so unique. You know, so it's important that while there are archetypal rules that relationship psychology, each relationship is different. So we cannot never compare. And what you should I'm sure Yeah, you got with your wife early on, maybe in your life, you both were very young, but I'm sure you guys had your own rite of passages and within that, and it could have gone any other way, right? [Speaker 1] (27:17 - 27:26) Did one of you have secure attachment, though, like one of you kind of like have that kind of like a positive family figure role model that had a connection to you? [Speaker 3] (27:27 - 27:28) I think so. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (27:28 - 27:30) Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. [Speaker 3] (27:30 - 29:00) That helps to You both might appreciate this because you know, human design. And my wife and I were both emotionally defined in human design. And I shared this story before. And like within a month, within the first year of us dating, she tried to break up with me three times because I kept my value system at that point was kind of like, I don't know if I need to get married. Like, I'm cool. Let's just do our thing. We're fine. And her value was like, I want to experience marriage. I want to be with someone who wants to get married. Yeah, one time we came back I think it was like some might have been even like a relationship conference or some seminar. And we're sitting on the couch. And she's just like, I'm ending this relationship, you know, and she was really emotional. You know, and I kind of was there. I was emotional with her. But I, I kind of dozed off during the argument because it was really late, you know, and then I think I woke up and I was really late, tired. But I remember saying to her, I was like, I was like, I don't want to make this decision when you're at the height of an emotional wave, you know? And so she went to sleep. She woke up the next morning. She's like, Oh, thank God we didn't break up. And so this is where like having tools like astrology or some of these other systems that can highlight, you know, how you are as an individual can, can, can help the relationship. Because I think a lot of people, they're just like, they're just, they're floating around. They don't, they don't have like, they're not grounded in who they are. And also, you know, by knowing your astrology, by knowing your human design, or whatever the case may be, I think it can like help ground you a little bit and understand yourself in a deeper level. That's why we have conflict sometimes. [Speaker 1] (29:00 - 29:50) Yeah, we have a lot of intense like aspects in our chart as well. So we had to kind of use it as a guide to kind of understand how to resolve some things for sure. Yeah, I think I mean, understanding your natal chart or whatever, whatever system you use, you know, but the natal chart in tropical astrology and synastry and composite are really important to understand. And the composite is really like the fate of the relationship in many ways. Well, not to say that it's predetermined, but it'll show you kind of the archetypal energies you guys are working through. You know, so we have like a lot of fourth house stuff in our in our composite. And that's like, you know, early childhood stuff. So we've had to really heal a lot of that stuff, you know, it comes out even without us, even without us knowing that it comes up, it just gives you a good framework that you know, kind of, you know, what you're working with and where you need to and how you need to work with it. [Speaker 2] (29:50 - 29:53) Yeah, helps you, like you said, become more objective. You know, you use it as a lens. [Speaker 1] (29:53 - 29:55) Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Speaker 2] (29:57 - 29:59) So what is love? [Speaker 3] (30:00 - 30:03) Oh, damn, I made a document. [Speaker 1] (30:04 - 31:06) Well, for starters, I think that what we understand is love is not actual true love. It's very different. Like from David Hawkins perspective, he says that love is like at 540, I think on the map of consciousness. And he says that 80% of people are below 200. And courage is the first step above the 200. So I think that, you know, the true state of love is something that is without condition. And so it's not just love for your partner, although that may kind of be a little spark of it, but you actually are in a state of love towards all of life. And so most people I've only glimpsed, like I've only been in that state, maybe like twice in my life, you know, after like a lot of meditation and even being in India and being highly charged places. But I think we can reach for it, you know, but I think that what a lot of people think is love is just emotional attachment, basically, unfortunately. [Speaker 2] (31:07 - 31:59) Yeah, actually, I was laughing because I made this documentary 10 years ago, 2011, 12 years ago, something like that love reality in a time of transition, you know, about the new age, and that opens up actually with the Beatles song, What is love? You know, love is only need and then putting the question What is love? You know what I mean? Because it's been we always talk about it. And I always go back to Krishnamurti, my favorite spiritual anarchist. He always defines by the negative, okay, before we can understand what is love, what is love not, right? So is, you know, what does it mean to love your country to love food, like these abstract concepts or belief systems? Right? Is that love is love, jealousy is love, control, all these kind of things. So in my understanding, experience, love is a state of being or related to your level of being meaning how you're much in touch with your own essence or your true self, right? [Speaker 1] (31:59 - 32:13) It's unification, it's a type of unification, but it would be unconditional, meaning like, when you're in that state, you feel like that towards the guy working at 711, your dog, nature, a garbage can, like that's, that would be a true state of love. [Speaker 2] (32:14 - 32:22) What's the film with Steve Carell? Love lamp? Love? When he goes around? I don't know. I don't know. [Speaker 3] (32:23 - 32:24) I didn't see that one. [Speaker 2] (32:25 - 32:27) Oh, no, no, with the news anchor. What's his name? [Speaker 3] (32:27 - 32:29) Oh, oh, Anchorman? [Speaker 2] (32:30 - 32:41) Yeah. And there was Steve Carell in it. And he just like, you know, that that nerd and he just love lamp, love teapot. Yes. Just kind of like, sorry. [Speaker 3] (32:42 - 32:52) No worries. No worries. No, I loved all that. And also like, you know, I come from obviously a Greek background. And, you know, the Greeks, ancient Greeks, they're known as having six words for love. [Speaker 1] (32:52 - 32:52) Yes. [Speaker 3] (32:52 - 33:14) You know, we say love, and it's like, Oh, my God, well, how do we define it? And in the Greeks, you know, they had Eros, which was like sexual passion, they had philia, which was deep friendship, and ludus, which was playful love. Agape was that love for everyone. Pragma was like a long standing love. So those people that are in like a long term relationship, and there's just this deep knowing of each other. [Speaker 2] (33:15 - 33:34) Yeah, for self love, you know, example, I understand when there's a tag traditions is also that love is actually love is equals not love is knowledge, right? Love is gnosis. So it's not necessarily a feeling. I think that's mostly mistaken as a feeling. But it's something the ultimate love we're yearning for even unconsciously the state of being right? [Speaker 1] (33:34 - 33:44) Yeah, that's based on truth, you know, in the sense of like, I know, honestly, it's very rare, actually, it's very rare to find people in that true, like state of love consciousness. [Speaker 3] (33:45 - 34:10) Yeah, yeah. Because when I look around, and if I'm being honest with myself, a lot of it's conditional. Yeah, I feel like a lot of love is conditional. Like the minute your partner or someone in your family or your friend does something that you don't like, it's almost like, there's this pulling away, you know, there isn't this acceptance, there isn't this knowing and deep connection. So it's interesting to observe in myself and even in others, you know, because like you said, it's rare, it's extremely rare. [Speaker 1] (34:10 - 34:48) Yeah, yeah. And it's very hard to maintain this kind of frequency in a world that's at this level of consciousness, too. We don't keep that in mind, especially being in the US right now, you know, because but it can't but it but David Hawkins did say like one person above 500 can affect like hundreds of 1000s of people, you know. So, you know, our true power is in raising our consciousness at least so that we can start kind of climbing the ladder and get to, you know, even just courage, even if people could get to a state of courage in their everyday life and kind of live from that state, they're already operating the level of consciousness above a lot of people. [Speaker 2] (34:49 - 35:06) So and then it's been also abusive, we go back to the new age, you know, love and light, you know what I mean? Everything is love. All this is love, this spiritual bypassing, you know, and then mistaking love for just like always being nice and gentle and harmony, you know, but love is forceful. Sometimes sometimes it's it can call you out, you know, that's love, right? [Speaker 3] (35:07 - 35:16) Yeah, setting a strong boundary, you know, setting a strong boundary, like there can be love behind that as well, you know, so yeah, or maybe maybe love is truth. [Speaker 2] (35:17 - 36:22) Yes, I would you know, truth like you guys with capital T, you know. So that's the ultimate what is truth. That's that's a whole other topic. You know, I think again, I think in this, we all everything truth, love all these concepts, these big words we use nowadays, I think we're constantly working towards that, you know what I mean? Like simply like, for me, the enlightened state awakened state is a more objective state of being to see the universe and see itself to see with the eyes of the divine, which none of us are there yet. But we're working to that, right now, even with seeking truth, we have maybe a little truth about what's happening in the world. But that's the in the end, so subjective truths, in light of the bigger picture of, you know, we never never understand even the role of evil, something maybe bad needs to happen before something good can happen. But we see it through our little lens. And like, Oh, this is horrible. And all these kind of things, we don't see the bigger picture. But the more we evolve, the more objective we become. And I think true love, you know, from with the big T truth perspective is this more objective view to see things as they are, without judgment, which it's easier said than done, because we right away we judge and we project always, right? [Speaker 3] (36:23 - 36:29) If it's okay, I want to ask you, like, what, um, what practices do you two use to kind of keep you on on the evolutionary path together? [Speaker 2] (36:29 - 36:31) You know, you mean relationship wise? [Speaker 3] (36:31 - 36:37) Yeah, relationship wise, like when things do come up, you know, like, how do you navigate them? [Speaker 1] (36:39 - 36:54) Um, well, we have lots of conflict management strategies, because we're very Plutonian. And we can really, he has like some strong Mars placements. I have a strong Mars in the seventh house. So when we battle it out, we really go at it. [Speaker 2] (36:54 - 36:56) First rule, it gets heated, timeout. [Speaker 1] (36:56 - 37:17) Yeah, that's the main thing. The first rule is that if we're in fight or flight or freeze, we take a break. And I know it sounds crazy, but we have to take as many breaks as are necessary, because you can't actually have a reasonable conversation when you're in fight or flight or freeze. It's just not possible. Like, even your prefrontal cortex just goes right offline. And you're not even thinking anymore. [Speaker 2] (37:17 - 37:21) On a basic psychological level, I have more anxious attachment, you have more avoidant attachment. [Speaker 1] (37:22 - 37:23) I think I'm a bit all over the place. [Speaker 2] (37:25 - 37:26) But that's number one rule. [Speaker 1] (37:27 - 38:27) And then we have ways of like, we have this kind of listener communicator exercise that we do. And we also do in our coaching. So basically, you know, one person shares from an eye place how they're feeling, they pick one issue to talk about. And then the other person basically needs to be an active listener, not defend, not cross complain, not blame, not get triggered. Like, I mean, you got to manage your anxiety in these exercises. It sounds easy, but it's really hard, especially when your partner is sharing something that they're upset with you about. So it's about kind of role playing a little bit and having kind of structures so that when you have sticky conversations, we're like, okay, we're going to do our listener communicator exercise with each other, you know, so that we can we have we have basically tools to work things out, basically. And we also have agreements, you know, in conflict, you know, that we aren't allowed to, you know, like, like, what are our conflict rules? Sometimes they go out their window, to be honest. [Speaker 2] (38:29 - 38:31) Like attacking personally. [Speaker 1] (38:32 - 39:09) Yeah. Blame, shame if the other person's caught in that, you know, the other person needs to check them on that. And really sharing. I know it sounds really simple. But sharing from an eye place is really important, because rather than, you know, externalizing, be like, you know, I'm this way, because you're this way, you're really owning your own internal experience. And that's easier said than done, you know, like, none of us learned this growing up, I grew up in a very chaotic household, his parents were more conflict avoided, I think, you know, so you have to learn tools to manage your differences and also manage your anxiety in the face of your partner telling you something that you don't want to hear. That's a big thing. [Speaker 2] (39:10 - 39:25) You know, I think the challenge for us is something in our particular setup that we also we work together. Yeah, that is a business together and our personal life. So that's been actually the biggest struggle over the past two years. Yeah, that's why we like we just came back, we need to like consciously make room for the relationship. [Speaker 1] (39:25 - 40:06) Okay, let's leave the business besides, you know, and boundaries around a big lesson, you know, not letting like work stuff interfere into like all aspects of our life, which is really hard. I'm sure you guys know, as an entrepreneur, you know, because you kind of got to be on the ball. But yeah, it's a particular situation. We also have rituals to like even just this week, we decided like every morning, we're just going to touch base and have coffee with each other and share with each other. You know, these little moments of like, just kind of touching base, I think are really helpful, as well, because we kind of spend our days doing different things. And it's like good to kind of, you know, constantly like water the plant of your relationship without being enmeshed in it at the same time. [Speaker 3] (40:07 - 40:09) You guys should throw kids into the mix. [Speaker 1] (40:10 - 40:14) Yeah. We're thinking about it. [Speaker 3] (40:14 - 40:15) That'll evolve your relationship. [Speaker 1] (40:18 - 40:23) Not that I know, but we have a very needy dog, which is good practice. [Speaker 3] (40:25 - 40:44) Same here. Yeah. Everything that you mentioned is so freaking hard. Like none of this work is easy by any means. It's taken me so long, even just to get to the point where like, I don't take things personally to the degree that I did. But also like, I want to talk about how can people use their relationship as a mirror to their childhood wounds? [Speaker 1] (40:45 - 41:23) Oh, God, like, it all comes up the way that you feel about yourself, the way that you relate to others, the way that you are able to emotionally connect to others. A lot of this is really templated very young, you know, into your brain, and you have to kind of be willing to reinvent yourself in relationship, especially if you didn't have the greatest childhood. So, you know, but it's very clear, you know, because humans are made to attach to people and have healthy relationships. So we almost by basically by design. So when we're not doing that, something happened usually. And if we don't feel safe enough to open up to people, usually something happened. [Speaker 2] (41:23 - 41:40) So for example, as an example, as you mentioned before, evolutionary astrology have a lot of aspects in the fourth house, the home. Yes. So being aware of psychology, you know, a conflict sometimes come up, I can only see myself sometimes or, you know, when I'm conscious enough to regress back to that inner child. [Speaker 1] (41:40 - 41:41) Yes. [Speaker 2] (41:41 - 41:45) Right. That didn't get what it needed from his mom back then. And then to get it from her. [Speaker 1] (41:46 - 42:35) And then vice versa. We're constantly projecting our parental images out onto the world. That's another thing. So like my relationship to my father can show up in my projections towards him, his relationship to his mother shows up in projections towards me. So you really have to have the level of self observation to realize that what you experience in your own psyche is not actually what's happening out there in the world, which is a very advanced technique, you know, because you have to be self aware to observe your own thoughts, and then create some distance between what you're having going on in your own psyche and what sack who your partner actually is. And it's very hard sometimes. So I think, you know, learning how to work with your triggers and projections is so essential. And it's easier said than done at the same time. You know, we still, I think we kind of see each other a lot more clearly now, what do you say from the beginning? [Speaker 2] (42:35 - 43:40) Yes, absolutely. I mean, also, in the beginning, we had to also had our own romantic projections, you know, had to fall away. Yes, right. And then stuff emerged. I mean, based on the David Rico's work that I just mentioned before, from how to be in a relationship, he said, the true marriage from an archetypal sense starts after the romantic phase is over. Yeah, right. And so that's when the true person emerges, and you have to deal with the shadow. And, you know, we definitely feel like, you know, we have also we feel like our work has really taken off, you know, what we also present to the world ever since we were together. Very complimentary in that sense, right? There's a deeper purpose going on. But at the same time, there are a lot of lessons to be learned within the relationship, right? So we also want to keep it real. It's like, it's not like we could market ourselves as twin flame experts, right? Like, can I play that game? But we know, but that's not who we are either. You know what I mean? We want to keep it real. And then our relationship, you know, has has its challenges, but we use it all as a material to become a conscious and aware and grow. That's really what it comes down to. [Speaker 3] (43:41 - 44:02) Yeah, I think it's so powerful to witness. And I think moving forward to seeing two people, you know, together, co facilitating and being real, you know, it's not all just like, everything's perfect. We're so enlightened, we're so involved, you know, and it's just like, even having this real conversation, like, that's it. That's the work right here. I mean, talk about the great work. Yeah, this is a great work relationship. [Speaker 1] (44:03 - 44:07) It's not fun, actually. People say shadow work is fun. They actually don't understand. [Speaker 3] (44:09 - 44:44) I mean, to get triggered, okay, and to be in to be in it within a relationship, and then to hold space for it, and then to step away and to reflect and to really like, you know, you have that part of you that just wants to point the finger and be like, you, you, you. And then it's like, then the other part of it's like, Okay, well, what, what did you do wrong? Like, what is what's your role in this? You know, it takes a lot of work to be honest with yourself, you know, and then to, let's say you did do something disrespectful, and then to go back to your partner, when you both have come out of that place where you've been triggered, and to sit and to be like, Hey, listen, you know, I'm really sorry, I hurt your feelings. You know, that's kind of fucked up. [Speaker 1] (44:45 - 46:05) You got to do those repairs as much as possible. And you have to do over things a lot. Because our, you know, I know if I'm speaking for myself, I know that my default ways of relating were like from my parents who used to argue all the time. So I've literally had to like, relearn a whole new way of relating, which is goes actually against some of my default patterns, you know, to criticize and to like, just, you know, blame. So, you know, you really are overriding very well trodden neural pathways, and you're creating new ones, which is not easy, actually, it doesn't come natural at first. But then once you realize that, you know, it does feel better in your connection to have those moments where you kind of, hey, can I say that over in a is a really big piece of it, it can just change everything, you know, and, and also, you know, this kind of relating extends to the whole world, it just it starts in your little relationship. But then it creates a different way of relating to the rest of the world as well, that's more conscious as well. And I think that's why I kind of, you know, using your relationship for evolution is really important. Because, I mean, if you see what's going on in the world, like we have these kind of two divisions in society, and they're not talking to each other, and they're just projecting on each other, you know, people don't know how to actually relate to each other anymore. And that's starting in their home and starting in their family. [Speaker 2] (46:06 - 46:45) I think that's a key point that understanding that all this is relationship beyond intimate love relationships, you relate how you relate to anyone and everyone, right? Yeah. Nowadays, it's with this internet and everything. It's just brilliant. If you want to dive deeper into shadow work and really apply it, it's very humbling, because then I realized, fuck, I'm projecting all the time on this person who I have no idea who this person is. But he triggered me anywhere on Facebook. Fuck that guy. Look at myself, you have the awareness because my mind cannot destroy and feeds of that like that finds more reasons and rationalization why you don't like this person. Like instead of like, hold on, why is this really getting to me so much? Was it what is it within me? [Speaker 3] (46:46 - 46:46) Right? [Speaker 2] (46:46 - 47:26) And that's that's the difficult battle more within myself, what I noticed now, even my own process that the hardest battle is really not out there. You know, it's within myself, be it within relationship or in the world in general, you know, because once you realize how most of your actions are very mechanical, and that there's no consciousness around it, or thoughts very mechanical, like loops, and also being humble, you know, a lot of the things we teach, you know, I understand intellectually, be it spiritually, psychologically, finding great, but there are moments where all of this goes out of the window. And, you know, and it's almost like hypocritical, but in, you know, in the moment, I don't remember, she doesn't remember, and then we're gonna fuck we have to apply what we teach as well. [Speaker 1] (47:26 - 47:35) Which is a sign that actually the prefrontal cortex and you're in fight or flight or freeze, because your logical rational brain needs to be online to even use any of this stuff. [Speaker 3] (47:37 - 48:36) Yeah, it's pretty amazing when you sit there and you say, Oh, I've done this work. I read all the books, I've done this, and then and then a relationship comes into your life or a relationship ends. And you're like, Oh, fuck, you know, because it really is my I mean, yeah, I've had a lot of growth and learning when I've been on my on my own traveling, backpacking, whatever. But the real the real shit, I feel like has happened for me, that's kind of like, supercharged, my growth has been in partnership, you know, I can't run away, especially if I don't want to, if I want to stay in it, and I value the partnership, I have to be real with myself. And another thing I want to bring up, I'm curious, your thoughts on this is that when you do come back together, after, let's say, an argument or conflict, and let's say one person does say, listen, I want to take responsibility, I'm sorry. But to just be able to say, I'm sorry, as opposed to, I'm sorry. And then let me explain all the things you did wrong as well. You know, like, like, that's, that's a little bit of my pattern where I'm like, Listen, I'm sorry. But if you didn't do this, if you didn't do that, then I wouldn't be here. You know, yeah, I don't know. I'm curious your thoughts on that, like that. [Speaker 1] (48:36 - 49:20) I do that, actually. I'm like, I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings. Because you did something wrong. Yeah, I think it's just like, for me, you know, this is actually where the psychological and the spiritual really weave together. Because as I've kind of developed my own spiritual practice, my voice of conscience gets very loud. And I feel guilty in a healthy guilty way when I do something wrong. So I have to own that, you know, the guilt is a function of conscience and being like, Okay, I got to do this over, you know. So I mean, just it can be simple, you don't need to add an explanation and be like, Hey, I didn't like how that conversation went. Can we do can we do it over and be like, Hey, I'm sorry for snapping on you right away. Can we talk, you know, it just it can be something really simple. [Speaker 2] (49:21 - 49:25) Yeah, humility is key without not mistaking humility for self diminishment. Right? [Speaker 1] (49:25 - 49:26) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (49:27 - 49:47) And also, I was gonna say in light of owning things that yeah, you want to just own them without kind of retaliating right without attacking the other person and just be honest, which is easier said than done. I think it's just a matter of like, like Laura said, there's it's very important to understand nowadays that there's a healthy aspect to feeling shame and guilt. [Speaker 1] (49:47 - 49:48) Yes. [Speaker 2] (49:48 - 50:14) Right. And we are thrown out of the window. It's it's a function of conscience. Yeah, that we can over like a lot of people, many of us deal with toxic shame, or we beat ourselves beat ourselves up even more, right. And that's based on childhood. But you know, if you really mistreat your partner or somebody else, there should be the voice coming Hold on, that was that was wrong. Okay, you know, yeah. And that's what we need to listen to is it's the voice of conscience. [Speaker 1] (50:14 - 50:14) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (50:15 - 50:30) Yeah, like that voice in me just goes, Yo, that was fucked up, bro. And then I just got to allow myself to feel the feelings of that. Because this is where again, you can distract yourself that little, that little whisper of guilt, shame comes in, and you're you're off to the self soothing mechanism, you're off to the distraction. [Speaker 2] (50:31 - 50:49) Exactly. Exactly. It comes up for more. And it's important, but many we also know there's not many people are in touch with that. No, well, it's much more tempting to blame and like go off and then even maybe publicly on like, blaming, you know, your ex and all of this. And because it creates almost a dopamine hit, right? [Speaker 3] (50:49 - 50:51) Yeah, it feels good to be self righteous. [Speaker 2] (50:51 - 50:52) Yeah, I'm right. [Speaker 3] (50:52 - 50:53) You're wrong. [Speaker 1] (50:53 - 52:01) The self righteousness, you know, john Bradshaw wrote this amazing book called healing the shame that binds you. And he says that self righteousness is actually one of the faces of shame. So you know, you see that everywhere in the world, the shame projections like shaming people over the past couple years for not doing certain things subscribing to certain ideologies. This is a sign that this person actually has a shame based identity, which means that at their core, they think that something is fundamentally wrong with them. So they've developed this righteous self righteous persona that gets to tell other people, you know, the best way to be, but it's all coming from shame. So in order to actually feel healthy, guilt and shame, you have to have to deal with that toxic shame and whatever shit is around that basically, because you can't access it in a healthy way. If you hold that toxic shame, because what will happen is if anyone points out something you did wrong or not so great. If you have a shame based identity, you'll go into this like spiral like downward spiral of like, Oh my god, like I'm the worst in the world. And then, you know, try and cover it up with addictions or projections or whatever, you know, we did a whole podcast about that. And we yeah, yeah, yeah. [Speaker 3] (52:01 - 52:01) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (52:02 - 52:17) Karen is actually a big lesson in our relationship even too, is that we had to look at the ways that we had shame based identities. So when it came up in conflict, we were kind of like blaming each other out of self righteousness without realizing that like no, we have something both going on. [Speaker 2] (52:17 - 52:22) I also tended to like in my relationship patterns, my core dependency and like actually beating myself up. [Speaker 1] (52:22 - 52:23) Yes. [Speaker 2] (52:23 - 52:30) Like judging myself make it even worse than it is taking on too much. Right. So that came also from childhood. [Speaker 3] (52:30 - 52:34) Yeah, you mean like overbearing responsibility to like a degree. [Speaker 2] (52:35 - 52:35) Exactly. [Speaker 3] (52:35 - 52:43) Realistic. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, life's easy when you're perfect and you do nothing wrong, right? [Speaker 2] (52:44 - 52:45) I agree. [Speaker 3] (52:45 - 52:52) Not everyone can be like Bernard and I. 262 profiles, right? That's right. [Speaker 1] (52:53 - 52:54) You guys both 262s? [Speaker 2] (52:54 - 52:57) I'm a 6-2 manifesting generator. [Speaker 3] (52:57 - 52:57) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (52:57 - 53:00) Laura's a 5-1 manifesting generator. [Speaker 3] (53:00 - 53:01) Nice. I'm a 5-1 generator. [Speaker 1] (53:03 - 53:06) We got the same human design combo on our podcast. [Speaker 3] (53:06 - 53:11) Yeah, different, different. We're both straight generators. You guys are both MGs. [Speaker 2] (53:13 - 53:17) Emotionally defined. Laura is not, the sacral is not defined. [Speaker 1] (53:17 - 53:21) Yeah, I don't know what that means. I don't have enough space in my brain for astrology. [Speaker 3] (53:22 - 53:44) No worries. That's cool. It's 262s and 251s. Nice. Awesome. So we're kind of touched on this, but just I guess to make it clearer, when two people come together from a place of not having done the self work, what causes them to be attracted to each other? I guess we extrapolate what a trauma bond is on a deeper level. [Speaker 1] (53:45 - 54:17) I mean, it's usually a lot of conditioning from childhood, like, you know, not only how their parents' relationship were, but the opposite sex parent, what they were projected on, you know, so some people are projected from their parents, you need to get married, you need to have kids, you need to do this and this and this, you know, so we have a lot of like deconditioning that needs to happen before we can even enter into an evolutionary relationship. Because even, even some people we talk to actually in our programs, like they may want relationships that have been subscribed to them by society and their family and peers and culture. [Speaker 2] (54:18 - 54:50) So I think a lot of I mean, they're different levels, relationships, sometimes also just what calls an esoteric Christianity, the general law, meaning the just, you know, the process of nature, just biological attraction, and just nature has an influence over the attraction, for the sake of procreation, and all of that, you know, yeah. And then just based on personality, you know, I think, but a lot on that level, I think a lot of in my I'm not taking myself out of the equation, a lot of the attraction happens or why we're attracted to people also people attract us is completely unconscious. [Speaker 1] (54:51 - 54:51) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (54:51 - 55:14) The reason why we think we're attracted to the person or she or he is attracted to us has nothing to do what we think it's consciously about. I learned that the hard way quite a few times. So, you know, until it reveals itself, and we're actually unconscious child wounding trauma, or, you know, seeks that relationship, almost to recreate that, what we experienced in childhood, that's kind of basically a trauma point, right? unconsciously. [Speaker 1] (55:15 - 55:32) Well, if you had trauma, if you had, yeah, I could just also depending the type of trauma. And if you didn't have trauma, it would just be a recreation of like, what you know, relationships to be via your parents, you know, so if you want to stay on that track, then you can just follow the same patterns that they did as well. I see that a lot too. [Speaker 3] (55:32 - 55:59) Yeah. I was gonna say, I see also to like, you know, the whole that whole saying opposites attract, is that I feel like people unconsciously get drawn to one another, because the other person's holding an aspect of themselves that they either haven't developed, or they've repressed. So it's almost like this person's coming to you as a sign to reintegrate this lost aspect of yourself, you know, and in the beginning, you know, that feels all warm and fuzzy, because it's all happening unconsciously. [Speaker 2] (55:59 - 56:29) And then after the romantic period that you called about those, these little differences are the things that cause so much friction and challenge that end up leading to a lot of early good, Jeff, good, Jeff, for example, said people can be a perfect match based on the persona personality, but a complete incompatible in terms of essence. Right. And then another note, for example, you can have the most amazing sexual connection and like attraction on that level, but not be a match on the on essence level for for deeper relationship at all. [Speaker 1] (56:29 - 57:19) It's just biologically driven, you know, for example, and then, you know, I don't know if you guys get into like, Carl Jung's anima animus piece, because this is what comes up in opposite sex relationships. So like, to the degree that our anima animus is unconscious will project those qualities onto the opposite sex. So, you know, you see this kind of just like, so basically, my own animus, which is basically my own connection to spirit. If I have that unconscious, I will project all those qualities onto him and his own anima, which is his own connection to soul, to the extent that he's unconscious to that connection, he'll project it onto the woman in his life or people who represent that to him. So, you know, it's very, it's like, I mean, the relationship that we talk about in evolutionary relationships really has to begin in words, it can't be an externally seeking thing. [Speaker 2] (57:19 - 57:23) Basically anima animus integration is the alchemical measure of the inner male and female. [Speaker 1] (57:23 - 57:23) Yes. [Speaker 2] (57:24 - 57:26) Not gender related, just the qualities. [Speaker 1] (57:26 - 57:30) Exactly, exactly. It's like the divine, it's a divine union within essentially. [Speaker 3] (57:31 - 58:01) Yeah. Okay, so this kind of bridge to obviously out there in the world of social media at the moment, it seems like every single person wants to be a relationship coach, you know, we've got these polarity teachings on steroids, so to speak, you know, what are some of, I guess, the misconceptions or the flaws around what a lot of people might be consuming by following all these accounts that, you know, all of a sudden are teaching about relationships and what it means to be a man, what it means to be a goddess, etc. [Speaker 1] (58:01 - 58:18) Yeah, I mean, like people would be better off just like learning about secure attachments than getting into these kind of like theories that kind of these sub communities make up, you know, because it is really just sub communities making up theories and then kind of running with it. And what do you what would you say about that, honey? [Speaker 2] (58:19 - 58:53) Well, I think it's a good observation. So I think it's really fun was also what's all this polarity stuff, these these new relationship teaching coming up, you know, yeah, and I look into it. And for me, this is it's that, you know, I can see some essence, I'm not, I'm never the type of person to throw the baby the bathwater. Right. But the way I see it is almost a mechanical reaction to the woke left of just trying to destroy the traditional family and the masculinization of women and feminization of men. So now it gets the other extreme, we need to be a dominant man to lead the woman, [Speaker 1] (58:53 - 58:55) traditional Christian kind of like, [Speaker 2] (58:56 - 59:12) but what I see when I just observed, just on a basic observation level, I see a lot of very wounded men and women drawn to these teachings could more benefit from just some basic psychological, you know, childhood work, shadow work, projection, anima animus projection, that's really what [Speaker 1] (59:12 - 59:20) that's pretty advanced. I think the the the anima animus piece is like the missing link in the polarity. [Speaker 2] (59:21 - 1:00:14) I think that's what they do. They want this hyper feminized about this hyper feminized woman is hyper masculinized man, which is not really it's almost regressing back. Right. And I think that's what we see with this whole left versus right issue as well. I remember, by the way, and that's I watched Michael Tessera and you guys head on, right? And I think you asked him the question or like something about what he sees more the rise of a more far right naturally happening. And I think that's that's a danger in that, yeah, that we get caught up in this in this, this duality there. And, and Mr. Bowden, I see this even with relationships that it should be more traditional going back to the good old days where the, you know, the man was in charge and all of that. But what is missing is this alchemical marriage of the inner male and female for both to the day both become whole and not hyper masculinized man or hyper feminized women. I think that's, that's kind of like the blind spot there. [Speaker 1] (1:00:15 - 1:01:03) Yeah, yeah, I think that like, also, people are kind of sick of the left. And they're kind of like going to the other side of the pendulum. And I go, we got to go back to traditional Christian values. And it's like, kind of like role playing what my grandparents used to do, basically. And the fact is, is we've actually I'm not saying like, you know, we're more conservative and traditional and some of our values, you know, but that we we've evolved actually past that. And we can't deny that. And I think people are wanting to regress to like the old days of this romanticism, you know, like, I've lived on a farm, I've grown my own food, my grandmother was a very traditional woman, you know, but humans have evolved past that as well. So we kind of have to, you know, include that. And rather than being like, oh, we just need to do this and this and this and go back to this traditional life, and everything's going to be okay. I think that has some value in it for sure. But I think that times have changed now too. [Speaker 2] (1:01:03 - 1:01:18) I think that the whole polarity move is mostly also based on like, just behavioral changes, just yeah, should act in a certain way or role playing. Yeah, it's like personal development, yes, personality development, which never works out great in the long run. [Speaker 1] (1:01:18 - 1:01:18) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:01:18 - 1:01:27) And I was feeling like a spin off the maybe you guys are aware of this, this, the pickup artist move. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's almost like a spin off of that. [Speaker 1] (1:01:28 - 1:01:29) It's a seduction kind of thing as well. [Speaker 2] (1:01:30 - 1:02:05) You know, and then the man, you know, like almost women are desperate looking now for a provider, because that's the role of the man, you know, that can be very easily abused. And then how can be women more seductive to more submissive? I mean, we had one, you know, we have, I've known people that have kind of engaged in this, some of the polarity teachings and part of them. And it's done, it related resulted in even more abuse with this whole submissive dominance play, all of that, which, you know, some people are not, how can I say can take it way too literal? [Speaker 1] (1:02:05 - 1:02:29) Yeah, yeah. And it's weird, because like, you know, it's not a secret how much your early childhood templates, the way you relate to yourself and the way you relate to others, and then people don't want to look there, they want to like go into like, oh, polarity, that sounds interesting. They get very, almost fascinated with a novelty of like, whatever is a trend of the day, rather than actually just like doing just the basic ground, it's not even basic, but like just doing groundwork, you know? [Speaker 3] (1:02:30 - 1:02:42) Yeah, I think people, they just really want to grasp onto a very black and white view of reality. So it's like, if one thing's wrong, then the other thing must be right. You know, if New Age is wrong, then Christianity must be the answer. [Speaker 2] (1:02:42 - 1:02:43) That's another one, yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:02:44 - 1:03:09) And without willing to really observe and understand what's going on. But like, again, I mean, to me, this is what like human design helps like, my wife's a manifesto, she's never going to surrender. You know, that's just the reality. Yeah, for sure. So do you think there's any truth to the polarity teachings? Like, obviously, do women naturally want more safety and security? Do men naturally want to be more respectful? [Speaker 1] (1:03:10 - 1:04:17) Yeah, that's why it's so seductive, because it is based on this truth, you know, like even with Bernhard, like the other day, I was like, can you just go in the restaurant before me, I just feel more safe when you do that, like little things like this, you know, like it makes a difference. Because, you know, women by nature, I think we're more open and flowing. And they need that kind of container of the masculine, you know, like, even before we met, like, I kind of had my sessions and whatever, but I didn't even structure my purpose until he came and provided the container, vice versa, like my creative energy also kind of helps him with his work. So you know, like the masculine and feminine need each other. And I think that, you know, especially with the whole, like genderlessness is kind of going on. And like, there's all sorts of gender stuff happening right now. And I think that the polarity stuff is kind of an answer to like, what is true in nature, it's like part of us returning to maybe some sort of natural order, instead of this weird, distorted version of it. I think that that's what it's trying to aim towards, you know, it's like, it's almost like it's a necessary pendulum swing, but it's not quite the way the difference is between men and women. [Speaker 2] (1:04:17 - 1:04:31) That's really what it comes down to. But yeah, I think the polarity is taking too far. We have seen even one popular polarity coach saying, you know what I mean? If you if you as a man think you have an inner feminine, you're feminized and and and just, you know, living your life. [Speaker 3] (1:04:31 - 1:05:10) I think also to like, these polarity teachings are also playing up on the on the fear porn to have like the world's gonna end the world's gonna collapse. So it's like you need to find your the man who knows how to hunt and kill people and do all the things not to say that those skills aren't. Yeah, not to say that those skills aren't great to have, you know, I mean, I, with everything going on, I'm realizing, okay, where can I gain some new skills and learn, but it just feels like that's what I'm seeing in the in the in the in the that's a really good point. [Speaker 1] (1:05:10 - 1:05:43) Because even Jeffrey Wolf Green, when he talks about relationship psychology, he talks about tourists in the second house being kind of like the basics. So that's about survival. So you know, my grandparents probably got together for survival because my grandmother, you know, probably couldn't even own a house back then. So there's this part of the reptilian brain that can get into survival mode and make, you know, a lot of bad relationship choices. And it is kind of crazy. You know, we've got inflation, you know, it's like impossible to buy a house these days, you know, so that never underestimate the part of that brain and like just what it will do in order to feel safe and secure. [Speaker 2] (1:05:44 - 1:06:23) Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the we are in the dark ages that we have to all watch out in our own ways. You know, not a relationship, but how the we can easily fall into the fear point, the fear frequency, and then the reptilian man gets engaged and they need to hustle and like, only me, me, me, fuck everybody else, you know what I mean? And then we lose our integrity, we lose, we lose our like, north node, so to speak, right, or like our guidance, our connection. And with relationships, I mean, that's, you know, unfortunately, that's, you know, they also the whole polarity thing, they're also taking advantage of what we talked about, that people are looking more for deeper relationship in the sense people are desperate, actually. [Speaker 1] (1:06:24 - 1:06:54) Because it has been like, I mean, you guys are in relationships, but I know, from doing sessions with people that the people who had the hardest time over the past couple years were single people who had to go through this all alone, you know, and nevermind, even people who were in relationship who your partner was on the same page with them, which is a whole other story. But you know, when times get tough, like, you know, we are in a psychological war still. And so being alone in a war is not usually a good strategy. So this is happening, you know, I think, for good reasons for some people as well. [Speaker 2] (1:06:54 - 1:07:12) Yeah, it's really strange. We were talking the other day, because we definitely don't align with the left vogue, we're more conservative, but also these labels, but I see like what's happening. This is weird manners, fear, Bitcoin, maximalist, Christian, dogmatic, right wingers, I don't know what, you know what I mean, like, I'm not down with that. [Speaker 3] (1:07:13 - 1:07:29) Yeah, but this is this is the flip, you know, this is the flip that we're seeing where it's like, okay, well, we don't like the left this this left side, but then let's completely flip to the opposite. But it's just part of the evolutionary process. And this is where discernment comes in, because you know, people are being influenced. Yeah, you can go. [Speaker 1] (1:07:29 - 1:07:42) Sorry. And Carl Jung actually said that the polarization was necessary for the third thing to emerge. So we have a third thing that's going to emerge out of this, we just have to stay with the friction without identifying with either basically. [Speaker 3] (1:07:42 - 1:08:12) Yeah. But I mean, I feel in my own, my own life, even when the past like when I got really into health and nutrition, you know, in my early to mid 20s, like I was like a food Nazi, I was like the health Nazi, like I literally was just like, pointing everything out. And then it's like, then you come to this kind of healthy place, where it's just you just feel more balanced around it, so I feel like that's what's ultimately going to happen on a greater scale. Joel, you were saying something. I was just gonna say like, will that third thing come? Or have we just been flipping back and forth? If we look throughout history? [Speaker 1] (1:08:12 - 1:08:13) It could take a while. [Speaker 2] (1:08:14 - 1:08:28) That's a good question. I was questioning myself, has it always been going like this, you know, like the principles of the like polarities are constant. I think something is accelerating. So both extremes become more visible and more extreme in that sense. [Speaker 1] (1:08:28 - 1:08:28) Yes. [Speaker 2] (1:08:28 - 1:10:22) Right. Yeah, I mean, like, as you guys maybe know, I'm deep into I've gotten deeper, definitely into Sri Aurobindo's work, integral yoga, this is my practice. And I'm really going deeper in this inner work and really aligned with this vision that we are transitional being we haven't completed evolution. Right? Yeah. And I've got my good friend Neelish Marik is my Indian friend, who's also deep in Sri Aurobindo's work on our podcast recently, we talked about this, you know, what's happening on the left, even with this whole gender dysmorphia and transgenderism. It's almost an external distorted manifestation of what of a process that needs to happen within which is the alchemical marriage, male and female within ourselves. Yeah, because ultimately, we are actually destined, you know, to become the gnostic being like Sri Aurobindo's vision, so to speak, hundreds and thousands of years in the quote, unquote, future of the many lifetimes where we have really transcended death, right? We don't need to, you know, don't need to eat, don't need to consume anything really have crossed the barrier out of the animal body, so to speak, and become a spiritual gnostic being, no need to reincarnate. And where there is no gender anymore, actually, but in a more spiritual sense, truly transformed the whole, the whole body is like wearing a dress and painting your nails and getting surgeries. And I think that's kind of like that, you know, from what I understand, because of my own process, I don't see things that black and white anymore, right? Because if you're really honest, in the deep, as you see, there's certain truth, even on the left, but it's twisted, right? And that's how the quote, unquote, devil works. It takes takes a bit of truth and kind of perverts it or distorts it or exaggerates it, you know. So there's, you know, so I think it's kind of like aligning itself, but there are many, many distortions right now. And, you know, I think the third is emerging, I think it's going to take some time, you know, and we have we have a long way to go. [Speaker 1] (1:10:22 - 1:11:04) I don't know if it will happen to like, I like if you look at kind of the cosmic cycles, and we're going to enter 20 years of Pluto and Aquarius 20 years of Pluto and Pisces, Pluto and Pisces will mark the end of a cycle. And like, I think we need to get out of this weird materialistic mindset that you can just like, you know, basically just get surgery and make yourself to be a woman. That's a materialistic mindset, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't acknowledge the existence of the immaterial. So I think that that's the age we have to move out of. And I don't know if that's going to happen, because we live in a very materialistic age, like trust the science, trust the experts, like all of that is like, kind of the mantra of the times. So, you know, we'll see. [Speaker 3] (1:11:05 - 1:11:07) Curious times ahead for sure. [Speaker 1] (1:11:08 - 1:11:10) I won't be alive by then. Or maybe I will actually. [Speaker 2] (1:11:10 - 1:11:11) You'll come back probably. [Speaker 1] (1:11:12 - 1:11:15) Yeah, I'm not incarnating after this. These are crazy times. [Speaker 2] (1:11:15 - 1:11:40) I mean, for me, for me, personally, speaking on another note, I mean, I've been it's like truth seeking for over 20 years since the 90s. And like, writing and pointing things out and all of this. And now there seems a new wave of truth seekers, which is awesome. But I'm also done over with that the truth community to you know, there's always externalization and pointing out and you realize, we talked the other way to even with people, some there are some very unstable individuals in the truth movement as well. [Speaker 1] (1:11:40 - 1:11:41) Yes, right. [Speaker 2] (1:11:41 - 1:11:47) You know, and there's a lot of nonsense in the conspiracy world out there as well, which people just go run with. [Speaker 1] (1:11:47 - 1:12:30) Well, I think, you know, like I posted a video today about like Dane Rudgar's concept of the seed person, you know, the seed person is basically they hold the seed of the next era that we're about to see born. And, you know, I think we do need, you know, people like you guys, you know, who are self actualized human beings who have a vision have purpose, who are actually out there doing something, creating something, you know, like, we have so many people who just want to just complain about what's going on and just kind of consume. It's like, no, we need people who can actually have the strength to take action and to build an alternative, you know, so if you don't like the school system, build your own homeschool school system or like, you know, we really need people who are also good workers to kind of actualize the vision for the future that they have as well. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:12:30 - 1:13:16) Yeah, I think anyone that's been on this truth seeking journey for a while, I feel like it's coming to this point, maybe not everyone, where it's just like, okay, great, we know how the systems are, but what are you doing about it? How are you shifting your life? How are you shifting yourself? What are you creating? What are you producing? You know, what are you standing for? And you brought up a great point, like, even, you know, I talked to people in California, and it's like, you know, well, create your own homeschool pods, you know, do you have the necessary inner strength and self esteem to just kind of, it might be more inconvenient, but what are you going to do about it, you can sit here and complain all the time, or do something. And, you know, that's definitely something Joel and I are about in terms of the work we're doing is that caters to true seekers to be like, hey, now what, you know, how are you going to step outside the matrix a little bit and create the life that you want to create based on your value system? [Speaker 1] (1:13:17 - 1:14:14) Exactly, exactly. Jordan Peterson has his talk where he's like, I forget what he said in the beginning. But basically, if you notice a problem in the world, like that's kind of your cross to bear to bear, you know, so each of us has our thing. We're like, I wish it wasn't like that. I wish it was like that, you know, that's your problem. Actually, you have to do something about that. That's your responsibility. And I think, you know, with with us, actually, what we found is like, you know, I've been to therapists for forever. I've been through all sorts of spiritual programs as well. And I don't see people weaving the two together enough. So I'm like, okay, well, that's my problem. I'm going to do something about I'm going to create something to solve that problem. And I think we really are going to need people who you know, Saturn is about to enter into Pisces, you know, we have this really long Saturn Pisces, I think it's like three years or something. You know, we need to kind of constructively make our dreams become a reality or else we're going to get very disillusioned with where society is going. Because it doesn't it doesn't look good. [Speaker 2] (1:14:16 - 1:14:20) Saturn Pisces might increase the whole dogmatic Christian thing, by the way, which is going to be a pain in the butt. [Speaker 1] (1:14:20 - 1:15:04) Yeah. And just basically, you know, on a practical level, wherever it's going to be transiting is like your karma yoga, you need to work in that area of your life, you need to put in like the kind of Capricorn industrious discipline, and do work in that area of your life. But I think we're going to have a lot of like disillusionment. And you know, we're going to see the rise of authoritarian, authoritarian religions, dogmatic religions, again, because people tend to kind of revert back to that as a trauma response. The good thing, though, is I think that a lot of this kind of new age stuff will get kind of destroyed under the lens of Saturn, you know, Saturn will take away anything that's not a value as well. So yeah, we're in for quite a ride. [Speaker 3] (1:15:05 - 1:15:13) I mean, we're definitely seeing that. But I'm noticing way more people on Instagram and my Facebook threads that are just doing the complete flip from the new age to like Jesus. [Speaker 1] (1:15:14 - 1:15:14) I know. [Speaker 3] (1:15:15 - 1:15:30) A lot more than I thought. So the fact that you say this whole Saturn Pisces thing, I'm like, wow, I'm really curious to see how that's gonna play out. Yeah. And for some of these people, they might come back to a much more like center place after they go through this polarization process. [Speaker 2] (1:15:30 - 1:15:36) We have a good friend who is a young psychologist. What did he say about? [Speaker 1] (1:15:36 - 1:15:59) Yeah, that like, you know, when things get too chaotic, this is basically how the reptilian brain tries to create structure and order like the Bible, like this is what they need that kind of like just structure, you know, it's a way that their psyche finds order, basically. And I'm not saying there's, you know, I'm sure there's very valuable teachings in the Bible, but people latch on to it as a way of like, okay, this is the answer. [Speaker 2] (1:15:59 - 1:16:45) And if I believe in Jesus, I'll be saved, you know, I have a close close friends, and somebody was close, I was converted to become a Christian, you know, like, all of this, and I can clearly see it's a trauma response, right? Based on his upbringing, and all of that. So a lot of these are trauma responses, right, just latching up onto a belief system. So, you know, and again, there's some there's some grain of truth in it, because what's really needed, what's what the collective or the evolution of conscious trying to get us is to bring God back into the picture of the divine, right? That's the initiation, but it's kind of distorted through this dogma and holding on to a belief system and the superiority and then, you know, only Jesus saves and then at the other extreme demonizes everything else, right? [Speaker 3] (1:16:46 - 1:16:47) Everything's satanic. [Speaker 1] (1:16:47 - 1:17:31) But you know what, Dane Rudgar, you know, who's like the grandfather of like, the transpersonal astrology that we practice that a lot of people practice now, he said near the end of an age, so the end of the Pisces age that we're in, the archetypes get exaggerated, which I found to be really fascinating. So the Pisces ultimate archetype is Jesus and Christianity. So you see that being exaggerated. And the other side, you have this like, crazy neurotic health crisis masking up, which is like the dark side of Virgo, you know, so I think it's also a sign of the times that like, we're just going to see like, you know, just all sorts of extremes. That's also going to be a Pluto and Aquarius thing, we're going to see all sorts of extremism pop up, you know, like we thought Pluto and Capricorn was wild, like wait till it goes into Aquarius. [Speaker 3] (1:17:33 - 1:17:34) Exciting times. [Speaker 1] (1:17:35 - 1:17:50) I think Elon Musk will like probably play a part for better or worse as well. This whole transhumanism and like, I mean, it's gonna get crazy. Like in the end of the 20 years, I think we're going to see a lot of inventions that we didn't even think was possible. [Speaker 3] (1:17:51 - 1:17:59) Yeah. Such an interesting character, like so trickster-ish, you know, like, now playing the whole conservative card. So weird to watch. [Speaker 2] (1:18:00 - 1:18:07) Yeah, yeah. You mean Elon Musk? Yeah, yeah. It's very interesting. I kind of wrote in my, I don't trust him. I don't trust him. [Speaker 1] (1:18:08 - 1:18:09) Obviously. [Speaker 2] (1:18:09 - 1:19:16) But I'm also like, you know, I stopped getting away from like, oh, he's the antagonist, the evil, he brings in transhumanism. It's like, you know, people's roles are not that black and white to me anymore. You know, like, I think what's happening, like Laura said, transhumanism and all what's happening in the world, the Great Reset, it's inevitable. I think it's going to happen. They've been working through it not only hundreds, but thousands of years. I mean, if you've even researched Great Reset World Economic Forum, that started already back in the 70s. I mean, they're not stupid people. And you have to give, they've been working through that long range going for a long time. But how it plays out exactly is still up to us. But I think some things are inevitable in the time that they are going to happen. Yeah. And then when we bring our own, that's why it's important, like Laura said, to be the seed people to not only be complained, point out, this is like, look at Klaus Schwab, oh my god, what he's doing. But what can we do, you know what I mean, to align more with truth and truth in that sense is being with the truth of your being with divine will that's kind of like, you know, can help the shift, so to speak. And that's that's why we're here. I think all of us in our own way. And we need to, you know, contribute in our own unique way. That's really what it comes down to. [Speaker 3] (1:19:16 - 1:19:40) Yeah, I agree. I don't think anything can really stop the trajectory of what's taking place. But it doesn't mean that individuals have to take part in it. You know, just like we chose not to get the vaccine, we're gonna choose not to get the microchip, you know, there's gonna be this distorted reality that carries on, obviously, it's going to be a train wreck. And, you know, we'll be we'll be in the position to observe it. But at the same time, it's important that we create our own systems, create our own value, you know, conjunction with what's happening. [Speaker 2] (1:19:41 - 1:19:51) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then there's always the unknown to embrace the mystery to also know that I'm not in control of this fully here. I cannot, you know, it's it's impossible. [Speaker 1] (1:19:52 - 1:20:22) Yeah, we can do our part. But you know, we're part of a collective consciousness to you know, so I think the raising of the collective consciousness is, is a good strategy right now. I mean, I would love to see on a timeline, though, like he not Elon Musk, but Kanye West president, like, I want to I want to see this happen. I mean, he's been the most canceled, like over the past few weeks, or no, Alex Jones, too, would be a great president, maybe Pluto and Aquarius can bring us something like that in the US. [Speaker 3] (1:20:22 - 1:20:34) That's hilarious. Yeah, it's so interesting. Now I'm seeing people, you know, call it like Kanye West and Candace Owens and all these people. It's like controlled opposition. Everybody, everybody's controlled opposition. Yeah, everyone. [Speaker 1] (1:20:34 - 1:20:45) I'm sorry, even to the extent that he's gotten like hardcore canceled, it means that he's rocking a boat. They wouldn't they wouldn't do this to this extent if he wasn't causing a problem. [Speaker 2] (1:20:45 - 1:21:12) I feel I wrote an article about this few months ago, because I see this this thing termed controlled opposition be thrown around like, like, can you need this? Yeah, everybody. We've been called controlled opposition. And I'm controlled opposition too. That's why I'm on your podcast. I've been called controlled opposition. I'm a CIA agent. I'm part of the Illuminati. And all these kind of things. [Speaker 1] (1:21:12 - 1:21:13) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:21:14 - 1:21:24) But yeah, it's just fascinating. Like, this black and without any evidence, first of all, just because of the assumptions, they make up in their head. [Speaker 3] (1:21:26 - 1:21:34) Anyone that has status, anyone that's built themselves up to have some kind of value, there's no way that's possible unless they're in on the game. Exactly, exactly. [Speaker 2] (1:21:34 - 1:21:51) And you know, I can see gatekeepers like Ben Shapiro, I can see him as like, I'm, you know, I'm not a big, you know, even Joe Rogan, but they all play a role. You know, I see, I don't, you know, I'm sure he's also aware, like, more or less of the social game of like, what to talk about what not to talk about on the basic self preservation level. [Speaker 3] (1:21:51 - 1:22:14) Yeah, exactly. Because, yeah, I got 11 million listeners, and I've created a life a lifestyle, some people are just like, Okay, I can, I can push the edge a little bit, but I'm not going to take it to a certain level. The other thing is you have people who want everyone to think exactly like them. So if you have someone who's been like, waking people up to like vaccine safety, but then maybe has a different opinion on something else. It's like these controlled opposition. [Speaker 1] (1:22:15 - 1:22:30) Yeah, that's, that's, it's called splitting. And we see things as like all good or all bad. And people is all good and all bad. And it's actually it again, it's a defense mechanism, you know, to see the nuance is actually a sign that you've done proper shadow work, because you don't split in that way. [Speaker 2] (1:22:30 - 1:22:44) Yeah, even, even I have to be like Alex Jones, I always thought he's content pro and like, you know what I mean, back in the days. But now looking at him, I can see more the role he plays. And actually, thanks to Laura showing me his astrology chart, it makes completely sense the way he acts. [Speaker 1] (1:22:45 - 1:22:48) Jupiter in Aquarius square Mars and Taurus. [Speaker 2] (1:22:48 - 1:22:52) Like, yeah, you know what I mean? [Speaker 1] (1:22:52 - 1:23:02) You know, it's interesting to Kanye also West had a sunken junk Jupiter thing. So you see like their kind of confidence and they just go there. You know, that's that's that kind of like Jupiter expansion. [Speaker 3] (1:23:04 - 1:23:22) Oh, well, this has been a fascinating conversation. Bridged a fair bit from where we started. But I think it was all very, very necessary and worthwhile. Guys, what are you guys up to these days? You know, share with our audience? What's what's going on for you and how they can get in touch and anything you're offering? [Speaker 1] (1:23:23 - 1:23:27) Yeah, so we're gonna do another round of embodied soul awakening. [Speaker 2] (1:23:27 - 1:23:32) It's what the 10th time we've done this program, program, time of transition, but it's all away. [Speaker 1] (1:23:32 - 1:23:43) So it's basically a 14. It's now a 14 week program of holistic self work. We do the psychological, the spiritual, esoteric in a really experiential container, basically. [Speaker 2] (1:23:44 - 1:23:45) Yeah, combining it all. [Speaker 1] (1:23:45 - 1:24:05) Yeah. So you can go to veil of reality.com my website. No, no, no, no, the direct direct direct time of transition, the time of transition.com. And you can find out all the information about it. And it's going to start December 26 till April 3 is going to be and it's limited to 35 people and by application only. [Speaker 2] (1:24:05 - 1:24:13) Yes, that's how we go. So this work again, our work is not for everyone, you know, but we want people who are sincere one. It's a deep dive. [Speaker 1] (1:24:13 - 1:24:17) Yeah, it's a pretty intense, pretty intense on that a lot. [Speaker 2] (1:24:19 - 1:24:41) But that's often then we have our podcast as well as Cosmic Matrix podcast for Yes, we release episodes every two weeks. And then my website, a lot of writings, a lot of videos, veil of reality.com. Yeah, I have a couple of YouTube videos, little talking my own videos a little bit on my YouTube channel is also youtube.com slash time of transition. People can check it out there. [Speaker 3] (1:24:41 - 1:25:03) Yeah, man, I've enjoyed your articles over the years. So anyone listening, check out Bernard's articles. Laura on Twitter, you're awesome. I love your posts as well. And guys, really just thank you so much for coming on and just being real. So I think that's what I mean, I respect about you. I think Joel as well. I just love how real you are. I love how you show up as, as a couple. And it's just grateful, grateful to know you. And so happy we had this conversation. It's definitely a lot of fun. [Speaker 2] (1:25:04 - 1:25:16) Awesome. Thank you so much. And also congratulations to you guys. You guys have been you know, I know how it is to keep out episodes consistently, you know what I mean, special guests. So you guys have have been on the ball. How many episodes you guys have so far? This is 94. [Speaker 1] (1:25:17 - 1:25:18) Oh, wow. [Speaker 2] (1:25:18 - 1:25:22) That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Remember when you guys started out a couple years ago? [Speaker 3] (1:25:23 - 1:25:25) I mean, I started a year and a half ago. [Speaker 2] (1:25:25 - 1:25:29) Yeah, that's awesome. And yeah, we're generators, man. [Speaker 3] (1:25:29 - 1:25:48) We can't stop now. We're just too committed. But yeah, guys, I echo everything you're asking. I said, thank you so much for being, you know, incredible voices of reason throughout this time. And I highly implore everyone, if they feel the call to go check out Bernard and Laura's work. Thank you so much for listening. We truly appreciate it. And we'll see you next time. Take care. [Speaker 2] (1:25:48 - 1:25:49) Thank you. [Speaker 4] (1:25:49 - 1:25:49) Thank you. [Speaker 3] (1:25:50 - 1:25:50) Peace.