Chance Garton This Is Not a Simulation

[Speaker 4] (0:00 - 0:07) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 3] (0:11 - 2:08) Yo, yo, what's up everybody? Welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. I'm Joel Rafiti. I'm Yerasimos. Yerasimos is here. I introduced myself this time, bro. Wow, bro, you are stepping up your game. It's impressive to see the evolution of Yerasimos now speaks for himself in the intro. Shit. So 97, Yerasimos finds his voice. We have the amazing Chance Garden in the house today, returning as a very early guest on our podcast. Some of you may be familiar with him and his work on his own podcast, Innerverse. Today, we are diving into his latest research around New Age Gnosticism and the simulation theory. Is it real? Is it a hoax? What's going on? We're going to chat to Chance and find out where the cookie crumbles in this regard. Many of you may know already how we feel and where we stand, but get ready for this conversation. Before we bring Chance on, very, very, very limited spots are remaining for round four of Rise Above the Herd, which launches November 29. This is an eight-week transformational journey specifically for truth seekers to really develop an authentic sense of selfhood, of self-esteem, so you can have a clear vision, know what you value, and simply move forward on the path of your most authentic self. Ultimately, that's what we're about, and to us, that's what being here for the truth does really mean. So if that's something that interests you, head to riseabovetheherd.co. Thanks for your support. Thanks for listening. Enjoy this episode. All right, everybody, welcome back. This is episode 97 of Here for the Truth podcast, and the incredible Chance Garden, host of the Innerverse podcast returns. He was one of our earliest guests. We had an awesome conversation back then, and I'm looking forward to this one again today. Chance, how you been, bro? [Speaker 1] (2:11 - 3:32) I'm so good, dude. I'm looking forward to this too. Just got off of Music in Sky Festival last month, where I hung out with Yerasimos in real life and met Sophie and all kinds of other wonderful people. And since we last talked, it feels like years, and I don't even think it's been all that long. I mean, I've really been branching into the, rather than just the host guy, more of the researcher, bringing my own perspective, making connections that I'm not seeing made elsewhere. And that's a lot of fun. Since then, I've also been really taken off with the biofield tuning work that I do for clients. And we might have talked about that some last time, but now I've got a huge wealth of experience in waving tuning forks around people's energy field and uncovering their secrets in a helpful way. And so yeah, life is great. I'm full time doing things that I feel called to do that I love to do now. I actually, you know, after we spoke last, I had a session with Joel and that was really helpful. I don't know if you remember that, Joel. I remember it very well, bro. Personal details of that, but there was a moment that was like, all right, this is what it is. What are you going to do? [Speaker 3] (3:33 - 3:43) I remember it vividly, man. It was take the leap, but don't take the leap, but this is what's available to you. And bro, like the evolution that I've witnessed, and especially like now, just having you here in front of me is incredible, man. Seriously. [Speaker 1] (3:44 - 4:10) Yeah. Well, I appreciate the reflection in that session and people out there get a session with Joel. It's really good, hard hitting, helpful, empowering. I remember it very well. That was a key, you know, sometimes you just need sort of that externalization of the truth, you know, within yourself and then you either make the choice or you don't. But I made the choice, jumped off the cliff and the unseen forces have come to my aid and I feel like I'm really flying now. [Speaker 2] (4:10 - 4:43) Yeah. But that's it, man. What you just said right there too, is that we talk about this so much in our group coaching program as well, is that when you decide, when you make a choice towards the life that you want, towards the life that's fully aligned with, you know, who you know yourself to be and what you want to do, those unseen forces support you, you know, whatever you want to, whatever you want to call them. And it's like, that's what a lot of times people like to call luck, you know, and it's like, well, when you're honoring yourself and you make these decisions from a place of deep integrity, like dope shit happens. That's all I can say. [Speaker 4] (4:43 - 4:45) Oh yeah, 100%. [Speaker 2] (4:45 - 4:48) Wait, wait, is it 100% or 99? [Speaker 3] (4:48 - 5:22) How do you guys It's 100% because the underlying fact of nature is that life begets life. Life seeks more life, right? All organisms will grow this way. All organisms evolve this way. Like I've mentioned many times, plants, they seek the sun, they seek more fertile soil. We are no different. So to me, those unseen forces is simply life seeking more life. When we choose to live in authenticity, when we choose to let things unfold organically, those powers are available to us. If we choose to like, you know, stop that flow and go against it and contradict it, and of course, there's going to be issues that arise. [Speaker 1] (5:23 - 5:52) Yeah, dude, I totally agree. 100%. 100%. I like to simplify one of the biggest questions out there that a human being can ask himself, like, what's the meaning of life? And I'm thinking, what if life is the meaning of life? Yes. And then once you have that one answer, you're like, okay, now we can move on. Yeah. 100%, man. Should you save this for episode 100? [Speaker 2] (5:52 - 6:06) I'm just gonna call this episode 100%. I wonder who the first person was that started that, you know, like that just said 100% and then it just kind of started being a thing. Anyways. Well, so we can't be 100% sure about that. [Speaker 1] (6:06 - 9:19) To the topic you guys would like to go over with me, which I love to talk about. So you guys are here for the truth. And one thing I've noticed in the truth podcasting sphere is that, and I think the breadcrumbs have been laid out like this on purpose and in some way, but maybe it has just a reflection of man's innate desire to create a narrative where he's a victim and unable to take responsibility for his place. It seems like for a lot of conspiracy researchers though, they've taken the bait, they followed the breadcrumbs and come to a conclusion that the ultimate hidden conspiracy is that the world itself is pure illusion, a prison for the soul. The body is your jail. Everything material is dirty and gross. And that the ultimate truth is that you're supposed to escape from reality and that God is the devil and all this shit. And you know, what it comes down to, to sum it up is lazy research where these ideas are based off of texts and scriptures that someone else is interpreting for you. And then that gets passed around like a game of telephone and nobody even goes into the source material themselves. And then if they do, they don't understand the underlying symbolism or the etymology of the language involved. And once you get certain keys to unlock what the symbolism is about, and the language is the key, it really helps to understand that there's actually a universal language that everybody speaks and that our dialects have just sort of changed in different regions. But the way that there's like primal sounds, right? There's a blueprint to our energy fields and biofield anatomy that is consistent for all people. There are seven colors that make up every possible painting. You know, there's platonic solids. There's only certain shapes that are in that category. The same can be said about language, that there's really one language. There's one story. The Sky Clock, the Zodiac is a really good example of all of those stories collected in one place. We've sort of put them up in the sky. So, you know, you guys can hit me with any questions or where we want to start with this, or I can kind of take it away into some opening ideas. But this is what I feel is probably one of my bigger life missions that I'll be talking about for a long time is refuting the simulation theory, Demiurge, evil God, reality is a prison type of idea. Because I think it's perennial, as Tesserion says, it comes back, it comes up again and again in different forms. Simulation theory is the pure materialist version of this philosophy. And it needs to constantly be refuted, nipped in the bud, people shown a different option because the way that it is presented in a lot of conspiracy culture is like, this is the biggest secret, you found it. Congratulations. [Speaker 2] (9:20 - 9:28) Can you kind of just give a brief foundation around like, even when you talk about simulation theory, like, what is meant by that? [Speaker 3] (9:28 - 9:44) Yeah, and also just to bring everyone on the same page, like the overarching umbrella is, I guess, Gnosticism as well, right, which kind of keeps reinterpreting itself. So also, you can like it from a foundational perspective, define what that is, I guess, as well. [Speaker 1] (9:45 - 13:59) Absolutely. Yeah. So the modern version of this is simulation theory, which you have your transhumanists and computer programmers and basically like physicists. I put that in their quotes, physicists, whose entire, their entire perspective on so-called physics for them is like simulations run in high-powered computers, modeling mathematical equations that they have inserted because the current prevailing paradigm says that these mathematical equations are like physical laws of the universe. And they run these equations and the big simulation and they look at big cosmic movements and dark matter and gravity and all kinds of stuff that is absolutely theory and not fact. And they're coming up with like, wow, the universe seems to follow rules and laws like a computer simulation. So it must be a simulation where you have people that are doing some level of the great work of spiritual alchemy on themselves. They begin on that path, whether on purpose or accidentally, they begin to notice that synchronicities are increasing. They think of something, it happens. They, you know, become conscious of a concept or an idea and they start seeing it expressed in the reality over and over again. And because people are starting for the most part with a backwards paradigm of what consciousness and expression in the reality, how those interplay with each other, they are seeing these increasing synchronicities as like evidence that they're in a dream or that everything's fake or that it's an illusion or that something is manipulating them, something's messing with them. So that first primary thing I think to understand would be that humanity, for the most part, is in this idea of something expresses in the world, in the external world, something happens, and then I become conscious of it. But I think, and this comes from like, this is rhetoric that was explained very well by Neville Goddard, that it's the other way around. We become conscious of a thing and then it expresses in the manifest universe. So getting that in the right order is helpful because it will help. It's like now we can, okay, what am I going to become? I can start to have more of a bit of a control, not control, but like intention over where things are going to go. Like we started out saying, the decision, I think this might have been before the recording, but maybe it wasn't during the recording. I don't know. The decision to do something, it informs like all these things happening that make that decision come true or make that decision possible, right? So getting that in the right order is helpful. But to go back to this idea of Gnosticism, I don't want to trash Gnosticism fully, right? It's more like New Age Gnosticism or it's tough because people are appropriating a word and the ideas about ideas of the ideas of ancient groups of people. It's like I said, it's like a game of telephone. Someone's interpretation of someone's interpretation of some ancient group of people that we can't go and talk to and most people aren't even looking at the original source material. So Gnosticism means, Gnosis means like knowing, basically. It's kind of a similar word to science. So there's nothing wrong with the word, but you know, the scriptures that people are mostly referring to when they decide that the reality in this Gnostic label, that the reality is fake, created by an evil God, is coming from mostly the Nag Hammadi texts, which we can talk about more and break that down as we go. Like, where are those? Where do they come from? I have slides on it. You know, I don't know if you guys are down for screen shares or not, or I can just kind of like go off of my slides a little bit. [Speaker 3] (14:01 - 14:03) I'm down. Yeah, I'm down too. [Speaker 1] (14:04 - 14:12) Okay, cool. So if we're gonna do that, if you guys have some response to the things I just laid out, please hit me with it and then I might pull up some slides. [Speaker 2] (14:13 - 14:28) No, I think what I really like that you're saying is this idea of language being hijacked and that, you know, you can take this word, but what is the etymology of it? Where does it come from? And how there can be interpretations of interpretations of interpretations. So, you know, it's a good thing to kind of talk about. [Speaker 1] (14:30 - 15:07) Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. So it's a misunderstanding of the doctrines that the ancients had and held of this universal religion that expressed itself in different parts of the world. And what I'm currently most interested in finding out where one of the highest levels of interest for me is like, what is the source? Who were the people that were taking this from one place of the world to another, the holy sailors, you might call them. So some books before we get started that I'll refer to, or I'm inspired by recently. First of all, you guys should have this dude on Dylan Seccosio. [Speaker 2] (15:07 - 15:10) Oh, you've been on Unslaved with him a couple of times, right? [Speaker 1] (15:10 - 24:24) Yeah. Yeah. Take a friend to work day. Yeah. So Dylan's writing this series of books called Spirit World, where the first one's really deep on astrotheology. The second one is really deep on the legal system and sorcery of the legal system, which Joel knows about. He's got some good experience with that. Book three is kind of an alchemical text that reveals a lot of deeper esoteric doctrines like of Pythagoreans and the Tektractys. And anyway, all of it is exploring language. The fourth book is what I'm holding up right here, A God's Acre for Winds of the Soul, the audio books of the Spirit World series. And for people just listening, world is spelled W-H-I-R-L-E-D. So I produced and narrated the third book in this series, and I'm almost done with the fourth one that I'm holding up right here. These are really great books because some of the other material that I might reference, Dylan has gone and come through old, old stuff. What I like about his work is that he doesn't reference anything older than or newer than 1850. He goes back to the OGs, people who had access to stuff that isn't really in circulation now. And the thing is that nowadays, like I mentioned with the truth community and Gnosticism and simulation theory and all these ideas, we live in a world where all the information about mythology is coming to us through search engines, not through libraries and old books or the ancient philosophers for the most part. And you go to search a certain term, a certain name of a mythological character, and the first 10 results on the page are going to be like video games and TV shows that use that name for one of their characters. So our interpretation and understanding of Zeus and Hercules are literally the Disney version. Okay, so that is a problem if you're trying to get to the root of what this symbolism was originally for and what it originally referred to. Not to mention the fact that planets are currently named after names that originally meant different things. And the ancients had other names for the luminaries that we call planets, like Saturn is an old name for the sun. And it's demonstrable that the ancients thought this, but in modern day, because people are not aware of the older source material, when they run across things like that, you get ideas like the Velikovskian Saturn was literally the sun and in an older age, and that the planet that is Saturn was closer to the realm and that it was the sun and then some crazy stuff happened and changed the world. And anyway, all that is like, misinterpreting astrotheological doctrines of the ancient world, in my opinion. And I think it's demonstrable. So Spirit World is a good book series, because Dylan takes, he's done the legwork of going to some of the older source material. He's quoting that so you know where to go look if you want to read it yourself. The early 1800s version of that type of work would be Anacalypsis by Godfrey Higgins. So this is volume one of the book is huge. And there's more than that. He spent decades, just all day, every day, deep diving into the all the writings of the ancient world that he could get his hands on. They even led him into the Vatican archive at one point. You know, because back then it wasn't as big of a threat to the powers that were for a guy like this to go and do his research because books like this were a big book like this was expensive. The commoners wouldn't have access to it. It wouldn't make it onto an internet. There was no such thing. So Higgins is a great source material for the etymology and the understanding the universality of the system and what the system really was. And so those are some great sources. And I recommend if people are interested in this, this stuff to go to the old material like Higgins, Godfrey Higgins, and not base your opinion on what symbolism means on modern people's interpretation. Now that being said, symbols are multivalent, multidimensional, that something can mean more than one thing. And that's where some confusion comes in as well, because you have like Mercury referring to an alchemical philosophy, and then you have Mercury referring to the luminary called Mercury in the sky. And then you have the Mercury that was actually the sun in an earlier age, the Mercury who was a version of the solar, the solar Messiah, like a Jesus or, you know, that type of a guy. And that's demonstrable too, through kind of just very basic knowledge about the mythology from the ancients perspective. So the key thing though, overall, is very well summed up in this quote that I'm going to read from Anacalypsis. So this is Godfrey Higgins putting it, just really laying it down. And I'll elaborate on this. He says, of the sayings of the wise men, there was not one probably more wise than that of the celebrated know thyself. And probably there was not one to which so little regard has been paid. It is to the want of attention to this principle that I attribute most of the absurdities with which the wise and learned, perhaps in all ages, may be reproached. Man has forgotten or been ignorant that his faculties are limited. He has failed to mark the line of demarcation beyond which his knowledge could not extend. Instead of applying his mind to objects cognizable by his senses, he has attempted subjects above the reach of the human mind and has lost and bewildered himself in the mazes of metaphysics. That's crucial right there. Yeah. He has not known or has not attended to what has been so clearly proved by Locke that no idea can be received except through the medium of the senses. He has endeavored to form ideas without attending to this principle. And as might well be expected, he has run into the greatest absurdities, the necessary consequences of such imprudence. So that says a lot right there. And to kind of translate, we have the perfect example in modern times with scientism, how people will take authority as truth and, you know, trust us, we can see the invisible world that you're not aware of. And we have the tools to sense it. And I'm not saying that there we can't, that humanity can't expand that line of demarcation to where our knowledge can extend to. We do. We push that boundary and tools are good for that. But the as Tessarion likes to say, the the white coat brings you into the world and the black robe takes you out of the world. The medical system and the priesthood are two wings of the same cult, whether or not their foot soldiers are aware of that. And they're not for the most part. The average run of the mill priest or rabbi doesn't know any more where what they're doing is coming from than the average doctor at a hospital. So the key here is, as Reich talks about in his book, Ether, God and Devil, that the human mind or the brain really, when in an imbalanced state, the masculine aspect, the left brain can overrun us into mechanistic thinking where we're trying to find every particle and every little piece and categorize it all. And reality isn't quite like that. And then the right brain imbalance takes us into the mysticism that is beyond the capacity of actually being provably true in the consensus reality. So for me, I'm skeptical of material that comes from sources that are channeled, not saying that there can't be good things from it, but to be aware of, are we talking about something that we can all observe in nature, or are we talking about something that was received by just one individual? And if a system is received by just one individual and they develop it and it's useful and it proves out in nature, that's one thing. And that's great. Use that. But to take it as like and run with it as a religious dogma is just as absurd as the cult of Branch Covidians and wearing a mask to protect you from the invisible boogeyman. [Speaker 2] (24:26 - 24:40) Human design was a channeled, I guess you can say channeled material, you know, which again, I kind of align with you in that regards of like, I'm a little bit more suspect, but then something maybe could stand the test of time, a person can apply it into their life and find that it has value. But I totally feel what you're saying. [Speaker 3] (24:40 - 25:10) Yeah. But I think like there's differences in like sparks of inspiration, which one can receive, you know, even from the Walter Russell perspective. And also when like, oh yeah, there's this one being that I'm constantly, you know, reinterpreting and moving through my mouthpiece as well, you know? So yeah, I tend to agree that I'm highly skeptical of channeled material. But in the human design instance, I guess, you know, that's something one can experiment with. And if it becomes true for that individual, then, you know, that's that develops one's reason around it. [Speaker 1] (25:10 - 25:33) Right. And it's not sold as like a religious dogma. Yes. Either. It's like this is a system for you to know yourself through. And if it's helpful and it works, then that's great. But, you know, when we're talking about like, I spoke to God and he told me that, you know, you can't do this and you can do that and all that, you know, you get it. [Speaker 4] (25:33 - 25:33) You get it. [Speaker 1] (25:34 - 26:37) So the other aspect of this that's really helpful to understand is Baudrillard's concept of hyperreality, where he says the media represents a world that is more real than the reality we can experience, and how people begin to engage with the fantasy without understanding what it really is. So what he means by this, when you hear about Baudrillard's simulacra and simulation, what I think he means by this, how people lose the ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy is that when you have taken on the lens of a particular worldview, and this comes through media, like people getting the worldview of, you know, cooties when that was all going down. Whenever you take on the lens of a particular worldview, and then you go out into nature... Quit ban from YouTube, bro, you can say COVID. Oh, yeah, I still like to say cooties because it's so stupid. It's more fun to call it what it fucking is. Yeah, great. You know, so, you know, I still will say cooties and I'll call the vaccine the cowpoke because vaca is Latin for cow and you get it. [Speaker 2] (26:37 - 26:42) Well, that's good. Now that you've laid the foundation, anyone listening from now on knows. So perfect. [Speaker 1] (26:43 - 28:27) So whenever you have a worldview that's over some kind of fantasy worldview overlaying your perception, and then you go out into nature, and nature doesn't align with this fantasy perspective that you now believe in, then it makes the natural world, the real world seem unreal. Okay, so this is what's gone on for a long time with humanity, whether through the media that we currently have. Medea, by the way, is a mythological character. And she was a witch who cast illusions and caused the solar hero Jason to kill his own children in a Herculean type way, or she sacrificed her own children, either way. Media is not nice. It's not a good word. It's definitely encoding something. So basically, we have this happening with the simulation theory idea with the new age Gnosticism idea that because their worldview is this fantasy, mysticism fantasy, or mechanism fantasy, depending on which side of the imbalance they're on, and for a lot of people, it's actually some of both, then when they, if they ever even encounter the natural world, if they ever leave the house, something about it feels not right. Something about it feels fake to them in some way, and they avoid contact with it at all costs, actually. And so that's where a large degree of humanity is at. And that's why it's so easy to get people to, for people to choose to believe in a fallen world, a prison body, and an evil demurred creator. [Speaker 3] (28:27 - 29:07) Yeah. And you know what like really piques my interest is what's taking place within the psyche of the individual that wants to seek fantasy as opposed to reality, right? Like why have they come into such a dissonant relationship with themselves and nature where they seek reality through fantasy? Because you know, obviously for them, even the origin of the universe story, big bang, right? Nature is random. Nature's unpredictable. Nature's unknown. This is conditioned and festering in the base of one's psyche. So from the beginning, there are odds with themselves. There are odds with nature. There's, you know, so it's like, it's actually playing on one's own self-loathing as well, I think. [Speaker 1] (29:09 - 30:33) Yeah. I mean, if you, if you see the world as fake, then there there's like inherent self-loathing in that. There has to be, because you are the world. We are living nature. So, and when you really get down to what the new age Gnostic is seeking, it is straight derived from the old, old Buddhism and a lot of versions of Hinduism where the doctrine is that if you have any, if you have, if there's anything to perceive or a perceiver at all, like if you have any sense of I am left, even a shred of selfhood or ego, then you are still in the illusion. This is the doctrine that is taught by the Eastern cults. And so this is like the ultimate attempt to return to the womb and basically oblivion really. And that's why it leads so, so quickly and so easily to like a metaverse idea, because that's an attempt to return to a womb state. But the irony is that no matter how self-destructive one is, no matter how much one seeks oblivion and non-existence, the only thing that exists is existence. So no matter what you do, where you go or how much damage you do to your own psyche, you are still going to be there. [Speaker 3] (30:33 - 30:57) You're always left with yourself. And who is left with yourself? Who tried to make this very loud and clear? Who said A is A? Who said reality is a fact? Who said existence is existence, right? Ayn Rand, man, she's been the antidote to a lot of this for a long time. This is the most pro-life philosophy. And all she tried to do was tell people, guys, hey, look at reality, deal with reality, let that be your guide. [Speaker 1] (30:58 - 31:00) And she was hated, right? [Speaker 3] (31:00 - 31:00) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (31:01 - 31:09) Yeah. I haven't dove much into her work, but I have heard Michael talk about her. Yeah, that all sounds good to me. [Speaker 2] (31:10 - 31:29) I think you would totally be into, you know, what she has to say. And like Joel said, I think a lot of the antidote for a lot that has been taught, you know, the last several decades, you know, is in her philosophy. I'm not going to say like she is the one and has all the answers, but let's just say she was a smart cookie. [Speaker 3] (31:29 - 31:48) Yeah. Ultimately what it is, it's nature worship. It's man worship, right? And many people are triggered by that statement. But why wouldn't you worship man? Why wouldn't you worship human potential? Because ultimately that is just recognizing the vast immensity of nature and the gift that it is, right? [Speaker 1] (31:49 - 41:53) Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be worship, you know, that word is charged. Yeah. It can just be like recognition of the potential is in of itself powerful. Everything in terms of healing in energy work that I do with people is strictly about like, can we recognize where the blockage is? And that allows things to sort themselves out. It's really about hiding things from ourselves that causes the most problem. And so one of the things though, like reflective of that is how we can't even see the stars in most of our urban centers anymore. And if we understood this concept of constellation writing that the ancients did, where they would put mythological characters into constellations or men, there's this is where it gets really fascinating and deep for me. Like there's a word the Sumerians and Acadians used for this idea of constellation writing called Lumashi. So this is a word referring to the astro logos or scripture in the stars and the practice of the ancient priest astronomers, because one priest meant astronomer and astronomer meant priests in ancient world there, it was the same thing. So they would derive the history of the world in terms of what they taught from the interplay, the puns, homonyms, synonyms, double entendre, all that type of stuff between the names of the constellations and the names of the stars and what the constellations represented in their proximity with each other, and multiple languages that they had familiarity with. So the ancient astronomer priests would know, say, for example, Hebrew, Latin and Greek, you know, and probably other languages too. So this interplay of hidden words and hidden meanings from reading between the lines was actually considered to be the secrets of the gods. And that only the initiated, the Illuminati, which is not even an evil word in of itself. It was a rank in the mystery schools of the pre-Christian Christian Church. The only the ones who were initiated to the meaning of the symbolism would be able to comprehend the secrets. And so because the ancients, this is my personal opinion, this is what I think has happened over a long period of time, that something would occur that was monumentally important, historically speaking, say a new king would rise or an empire would rise and take over a region, a neighboring region, they would conquer the astronomers or the priests of that region. One of the first things they would do is take over the priests. And like even the name Homer, right, where we get the Iliad and all these epic poems, Homer means hostage. Wow. So we have these hostage priests that are then instructed to like, all right, put the history of my kingdom up there in the stars or something along those lines, or put me, the king, up there in the constellation, put my name on it. I'm important. I'm a chosen one. And so because this would be a practice that occurred repeatedly, and they knew that this had been happening for a long time, my opinion is that they would see the history of the world in the constellations and decide that, well, if it's up there, it must have got up there for a because it really happened, even if it's so far back that we have no actual records of it. This is the record. The constellation writing is the history. So over time, obviously, that's not actually a good system for keeping real literal history. It starts to get like more and more confused, muddled and complexified over time. So like a good example of this would be, we have all the flood myths of various cultures. You have the Epic of Gilgamesh, where they reference Utnapishtim, who was a flood hero who survived on a big boat that he built. And you have Noah, of course, Noah's Ark is the most famous one. You go back even further into the Sumerian, the oldest Sumerian lore, you have the myth of, I think it's one of the very oldest cuneiform tablets that there is, the Atrakasis. And it just takes a little bit of hidden wordplay to realize that this idea of Atrakasis or Atrahasis, depending on who you ask and how they interpret it, that this guy who was the Noah character, through which all humanity was bottlenecked after the world was ended in a flood, supposedly, and then brought back, that he's like Adam now. And he's the only guy left, everything came from him. So the source of humanity starts with this guy, Atrakasis. Well, kasis is practically the same word as chaos, which is the Greek word that we have as chaos. So the origin of the world is chaos. And that's a fairly well known mythology from the poetry of Ovid and Metamorphosis, which is exactly what I'm describing. It's an epic of the history of the world from the creation up to his time. And the beginning of it starts with the idea of chaos. So I don't know what you guys might want to ask from here, but I've got plenty of more ammunition. I guess I should actually, before I kick it over to you, describe where this is showing up in the stars. So the more likely scenario is that there's not a world flood, even though almost everybody believes in that. But if we just base it off of our senses, it's probable that that is not what happened. So you have in the Zodiac, the winter half of the Zodiac, starting at a certain point, all bunch of the constellations are water related constellations. So these are the waters of the Zodiac. And there's a standing right before the waters of the Zodiac. There's the legendary hero figure of the Zodiac, which we call Orion. He's standing right there. He's actually about to walk on water as the constellations right at his feet represent rivers. And there's the Argo Navis constellation. The Argo Navis is a big boat in the sky. Argo, ark, basically the same word. And with the story of the flood, there's the part where Noah sends the birds out to see if the waters have receded enough. He sends three different kinds of birds out. There's a raven and the last one is a dove, I think. And the dove doesn't come back. And the boat lands on a mountain at the end. Well, all this stuff is up there in the sky. What we call the constellation Gemini was also portrayed as two mountains, twin mountains. And that's like right across from the sky clock from the boat. Inside of the boat constellation, there is a star that is named after a dove. I'm doing all this by memory, but if you really get into the nitty gritty and come through the details of it and spend the time doing the work, the amount of evidence is just of what I'm describing is endless. And you could just spend hours and hours and hours going over the minutia of the details. There's a crow or a raven constellation right by the ark. Basically, all of the characters, components, settings, animals involved, everything about the miracle story and all the miracle stories that I've ever looked into are right there in the sky clock. Altogether in a tableau. So when we call this Lumashi constellation writing, we're talking about the tableau in the sky where at a certain time of year, you look up and you see only see a portion of the night of the sky at once. You don't see the whole every star in the creation all at the same time. At a certain time of year, you only see this part of it. If you get a planisphere like this right here, you can kind of simulate that. And as you turn it, you see what part of the sky is available at any one time. And so I highly recommend people interested get in this type of thing, get a planisphere and just start playing with that and see the mythology literally transpiring before your eyes as you rotate it like the story going on. So you have all the components of the flood hero myth right there in the sky clock. And to every single miracle story that is like a supernatural mystical beyond the ability of what we've ever witnessed with our own eyes to ever happen type of story. Well, there it is. So the ancients, I think we're calling this ancient history because of the fact that in their time, stuff was getting added up there as it happened. Potentially, you know, a ruler or king would have himself put up there. So they, I think, would assume that whatever they did see up there must have been put up there by somebody whenever it happened and then carried on forward. It's like the they say that there's an oral tradition and things weren't written down. That's not exactly true. It was up there. That was their that was their book. [Speaker 3] (41:55 - 42:22) Wow. Thanks, man, for sharing all that. So I guess my question is, so how do people, I guess, begin to discover true history? Because what we're saying here is that, you know, people are building belief systems based upon mythology that's been distorted. So how does one begin to find the root and find the truth? [Speaker 1] (42:23 - 49:17) Yeah, that's what my friend Dylan is really working on with his newer books. He just published one that I've only read the first chapter so far, but it's great. It's called the Holy Sailors. And so I won't say that he's like an authority or the expert. I don't believe in such ideas. But he has his particular strategy for figuring things out. And what is or isn't noble is to just like base the assumptions we make on real world physical artifacts that are still around, like inscriptions on walls and and old architecture and specifically to the remnants of the language in the language that connect things can't really be obscured or denied. So that's another part of it. So I would say, overall, we have to maybe come to terms and accept that history, as it's been presented to us as an idea, as a study, it just isn't real. They're kind of like get back into a present moment awareness of the past is a story. And the future is a potential. And all that there is, is actually right now. And I think part of the reason why we've been culturally over so long, made to believe in history and ancient history and the way it's presented is largely because of systems of rulership that needed to have some sort of authority derived from some kind of lineage and historicity that, you know, at the end of the day, if we want to abrogate these middleman systems that are vampirically between us and every type of version of source that they call resources on the realm, then it starts with abrogating the authority that they derive from faked history. So, you know, like, we can we can look at writings from like Herodotus and say that that's valid history, or we can study astrotheology and realize that he's telling Herodotus is telling the same story of the solar hero, and the mythology that becomes a character like Jesus over and over again. And it's like, at a certain point, we maybe just have to let that go and realize that we're not going to know things that are beyond the scope of our knowing. And that ancient history is one of those things. But if we can demonstrate that people have kept certain traditions, rituals, ceremonies, and artifacts within their language that that point to a similar route, like the fact that there are that when the conquistadors came to Mexico, they found that the peoples that were living there had base were basically speaking Hebrew. That was their like, they didn't have a written language, but they were that their language was basically no different than Hebrew. That tells you something that maybe there was a world or world spanning seafaring civilization that was going all around the world. And that Hebrew itself is fascinating in the sense that it the original 16 letters of that alphabet are the same as the original 16 letters of the Celtic alphabet. And not like in a not in a written sense, they had a different they had different writing and glyphs, but phonetically like the order of the mouth sounds that we call letters. And the fact that there are 16 is also mirrored in the original 16 letters of the Greek alphabet supposedly brought to Greece by Cadmus. So like that question is a tough one. Maybe later down the research line, I'll have a different answer. But mostly, I'm just like, I think we might have to let go of the idea of truly knowing, because things that are coming to us in the form of writing and texts, most of that is funneled through some kind of monastery at some point in history and been books were gathered and burned and then rewritten by the prevailing power. And even like, you know, looking at the some of the more ancient cultures of the world like India, they have they have scriptures and texts going back theoretically thousands and thousands of years, but in their climate, they were rewriting their scrolls and scriptures every 10 years because the climate there caused the material that it was kept on to degrade. So to just sort of trust and believe that these record keepers weren't inserting things that fit their own agenda and the regime that they were assisting, as they rewrote the histories every 10 years, for hundreds of hundreds of years, it's not likely that we've got the truth about history. And, you know, when you think about it on just a philosophical level, I think that it's okay to accept that we can't know things that are certain distance away in the time stream. No, just maybe we should just accept that and let that go a little bit. Because it's, it's not helping us to fight over, you know, who's the special boy and whose culture is the right one. And I know one thing I get a lot of pushback with when I'm talking about syncretism and demonstrating how like, Odin is Buddha is Jesus is Mercury. And it's all the same mythos kind of repeated in different parts of the world is that like, you know, heathens or Christians or whatever label they give themselves are like, well, aren't you kind of diminishing the my culture, like to say that my culture is all came from the same place as their culture, like, but we're special, we're different. And yes, I'm not trying to be like communist and make everything one world system on y'all. But like, it's true that you'll have regional differences. It's true that your mythologies will have morals and things about them that apply to a certain group of people in a certain place. And that's all good. And what's important is to just show that like, in terms of a religious system, in terms of a system of spirituality, the benefit and the use of it is in how it can help us understand the truth of nature and what nature does. And that's actually a singular truth. You know, there is actually just one nature, there's one alchemical process, there's, you know, one way that babies are made. You know what I mean? Like that's, there is some universality to religion when you get down to what's actually knowable in the realm and how religion can help us hold on to and retain that type of wisdom. [Speaker 2] (49:18 - 49:43) Yeah, I think it's interesting too, because a lot of people, you know, when you ask them what God is, they'll just say nature, you know, nature is the closest thing in that regards for them. So I'm curious your thoughts on that. Even that term God, you know, we've asked different guests on this show, what do they think about that term? And what does it mean to them? So I'm curious your thoughts. [Speaker 1] (49:44 - 50:12) Sure. Yeah. I mean, to me, it seems evident that, you know, maybe this is going beyond the capacity of our senses, but it seems evident that this is a created realm. Now, like how that creation comes about and manifests, that's a really interesting question to speculate on. But I see the realm as mental. I see reality as mental, like that hermetic axiom of mentalism. [Speaker 2] (50:13 - 50:15) Like all is mind? [Speaker 1] (50:15 - 51:02) All is mind. Yeah. So to me, I think that the physical reality is manifest out of this divine imagination, this field of potentiation or the pleroma that is, for whatever reason, ordering itself into the experience that we all share currently. But yeah, like God is nature. That's not a bad way to consider God. That's a, you know, that's a big question that people maybe have to answer for themselves. But the idea of a creation, that it's a creation seems evident because that's how everything that we ever see that wasn't here and now is here, ever got there. Somebody created it, right? [Speaker 3] (51:04 - 51:28) Yeah. I mean, I guess the question is, like, is it created or is it just creation? Is it just the isness? Has it always just been, you know, which is, again, a hard thing to, I guess, kind of decipher and discernment. But yeah, for me, I kind of see it as just like a perpetual ongoing creation and isness. Like, I don't know. That's my perspective. [Speaker 1] (51:28 - 51:30) Yeah. Like beyond the idea of beginnings and endings. [Speaker 3] (51:31 - 51:31) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (51:31 - 53:17) Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think that that was more of the ancient doctrine as well. When you look at Genesis 1.1, for example, we have the KJV version, most, or maybe not most, but a lot of people could quote that, right? In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. But the actual Hebrew, if you look at the actual Hebrew words for that verse and translate it in a more honest way, instead of in the beginning, the Hebrew is Bar Rashit, which means by wisdom or born of wisdom. So in the beginning is actually by wisdom. And then the next word is Elohim, which they, like most people currently know as the word Elohim, but it's actually Elohim. So Bar Rashit Elohim, by wisdom, the gods created the world from matter previously existing. That's what the actual honest translation of Genesis 1.1 would be, from matter previously existing. So I think that the eternality of matter is a more sound doctrine, because whenever we look at the evidence of our senses, we can see that nothing has ever actually created out ex nihilo, right? And when things are destroyed, they actually just change form or regenerate in some way. So everything that is, is. The isness is. I think that that's a more sound doctrine. I think that whole in the beginning idea actually is causes like kind of a schisming problematic cut in the timeline of someone's own sense of eternality. [Speaker 2] (53:18 - 53:43) Yeah, I like what you said before, too, because I wanted to ask you, like, what are your thoughts on with this whole idea of interpretations of interpretations, ideas about ideas, like how does that play out in the Bible? So I like how you started or you at least spoke about that. I'm so curious, you know, there's different translations and even people who talk about the Lord's Prayer, like there's different translations on that and what that means and how it has such different relevance to the person. [Speaker 1] (53:44 - 54:27) Yeah, and when you look at the book of Genesis, it looks more like it's multiple traditions cobbled together into one book. I mean, Genesis chapter one is a creation story, and then chapter two is a creation story. The first creation story is that God creates Adam and Eve together. And then the second creation story is God creating Eve out of Adam's rib, right? And then some like to go back to the Nag Hammadi, Nag Hammadi scriptures are what a lot of the modern New Age Gnosticism is based off of. And it's problematic because it came out of like, I can't remember the exact year, I might have it. [Speaker 2] (54:27 - 54:28) You're saying when it was discovered? [Speaker 1] (54:29 - 54:34) When it was supposedly discovered, right? When it was put out into the public. [Speaker 2] (54:34 - 54:36) In the 40s? I don't know. [Speaker 1] (54:36 - 58:43) It was in the 40s. I won't say the exact year. It was like the same year the CIA was created. So interesting. A lot going on then. But what's fascinating is like the most popular translation of this text was prepared by UNESCO, which is the United Nations. Wow. Yeah, that seems problematic to me. Anyway, Nag Hammadi. So in 1945. We can look at that word Nag Hammadi and just break down some things out of the language as a demonstration for what like having some of the keys of language can help you do to decipher things. So Nagas in Hindu is serpents and Nachash in Hebrew is serpents. So right there, you can see a link between the old Vedic and the Sanskrit or Sanskrit as the Indians call it. We're given Sanskrit as the word, but they say Sanskrit because it's the writing of the sun, Sanskrit. So Nagas and Nachash, basically the same word, you know, it's no different. So Nag, serpents or watchers, and then Hammadi. So Hamm or Ham, but Ham is the word for black or darkness. So that's the same root as where we get Kemet, alchemy. Ethiopia is a word that is from the Greek Etheops, which means of a burnt complexion or blackened. So, you know, that's also interesting because we have a country called Ethiopia now that's in Africa. But when you go back in time, you find that there's like multiple Ethiopias and they're just talking about a place where dark skinned people live. And India is Ethiopia in, I think, provably so. If you, you know, if people had followed the same research trail I have, they would probably think that. So Nag, Ham, which is black or darkness, and then Mad. Mad is the same root as Madre, mother, or Dame, Dame, you know, that's mother. But also notice how Adam has Dam in it, right? You put Adam backwards, it's Mada. And Adam, there's all kinds of interesting links between Adam and the solar hero, especially in the form of Saturn or Kronos, who had names like Adamu, Adamus, Adonis, even the Hebrews called their, call God Adonai. They're referring to Adam, the idea of Adam, the Adam Kadmon. This is the creator, Demiurge character. And we should talk about the Trinity in a little bit, because this is one of the main doctrines that's the universal thing. So anyway, you have in Adam, you have the D and the K are letters that can interchange between languages a lot. And this is part of the trick is like knowing what letters interchange between languages will help you figure out words that are actually kind of referring to the same thing. Like one that a lot of people would be familiar with is L to R switch between languages happens all the time. W switches with M in Hebrew, when you go from Sanskrit to Latin. There's a lot of things like that, that if you get some familiarity with can help you kind of play around with the letters. And then the fact that different, I mean, we see this in modern times all the time, that people speaking the same language will put a different emphasis or even a whole different sound on certain vowels. Like, you know, I once, it really struck me when I heard a New Zealander one time say Omega, and they said, Omega. And I was like, Oh, okay. So we have the same exact spelling and completely different vowels in terms of the sound. So vowels can kind of just be interchanged willy nilly when you get down to it. [Speaker 2] (58:44 - 58:50) That's how I feel in my conversations with Joel on a regular basis. You know, we're speaking English, but we both just sound differently. I don't know what it is. [Speaker 1] (58:51 - 59:53) So like to go back to Nag Hammadi to just like what that word breaks, what that phrase breaks down to then would be the, the serpent, the black serpent mothers, basically, or makers, because if D and K interchange as they can, then Mahdi is not a lot is really no different than make, you know, M-A-D-I, M-A-K-E, we have a very similar word. So we're talking about makers. And why would the mother being the maker that gets us into the Trinity idea, but one of the key crucial things in the Eastern doctrines that became the Occidental Western doctrines is the idea of wisdom, being the origin of everything wisdom. So that's, that's evident, actually, in Genesis one, one in the Hebrew, because it says, which means by wisdom, not in the beginning. And we're probably all pretty familiar if we have any knowledge of mythology of goddesses of wisdom in the ancient world. It's kind of a thing, right? [Speaker 2] (59:54 - 59:57) My wife is named after the Greek word Sophia. [Speaker 1] (59:58 - 1:00:14) Exactly. That's actually the slide that I'm looking at right now. Sophia means wisdom, but what else does Sophia have encoded in it? Well, remember Nag Hammadi, Nag, Nagash, serpent. Well, Ophis is the word for serpent in Greek. [Speaker 2] (1:00:16 - 1:00:18) Sophia is serpent. [Speaker 1] (1:00:18 - 1:01:14) Yeah. And serpents are be as wise as serpents, as Jesus says in the Bible, right? So Soph, the Greek word Soph, which is Sigma Omicron Phi Soph, that means wisdom. And then, yeah, the IA of Sophia is the suffix referring to both, both the state of something, or it also can refer to a place like a country or also diseases get the suffix in the Greek and flowers, which is interesting because the, uh, the Gnostic mythos of the Nag Hammadi library, if you go to the creation story, the creation stories you can find there, uh, Sophia is the maker goddess that makes the world actually. And, or they call her, uh, Pistes Sophia. And that Pistes is like, believe flowers have a pistol, you know? [Speaker 4] (1:01:15 - 1:01:15) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:01:15 - 1:01:36) So there's like a flowering idea to that as well. And, uh, don't we see in the Eastern traditions, the deities emerging out of Lotus flowers all the time, right? Yeah. Okay. So Lotus, what, uh, what happens when you switch the L to the R with Lotus, you get Rotas. [Speaker 2] (1:01:37 - 1:01:37) Rotas. [Speaker 1] (1:01:38 - 1:01:56) What is on the high priestesses? Uh, what does the Tarot have? Rotas is a big deal with Tarot. Yeah. Yeah. So there's, it all connects when you just have these little bitty little keys to language and can kind of internalize them and look at things with new eyes. [Speaker 2] (1:01:56 - 1:02:09) But, um, real, real quick, I just wanted to say that the reason I said that when you said like the word belief in Greek and modern Greek is Piste. So I don't know if that at all relates to anything. [Speaker 1] (1:02:10 - 1:02:16) No, totally. Yeah. That's, uh, I haven't really thought about that, but it's where you get the word, like the word epistemology. [Speaker 2] (1:02:16 - 1:02:17) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:02:18 - 1:02:18) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:02:18 - 1:02:22) Is this where you've unlocked your asthma? I don't know how brilliant your mind is. [Speaker 2] (1:02:22 - 1:02:28) The Greeks, you know, the Greek word Piste means belief. [Speaker 1] (1:02:29 - 1:02:50) I, you know what? I fucking love Greek as a language. Uh, in my research journey, I taught myself the Greek alphabet so that I could read words in Greek and, man, it's a cool alphabet. You know, it's way more fun to learn than like the Hebrew letters, which look really retarded and don't make any sense. [Speaker 3] (1:02:50 - 1:02:55) Hey Chance, you might be accused of anti-Semitism here in a second, bro. Relax. Oh no. [Speaker 1] (1:02:55 - 1:02:57) Don't let the tiny hats come after me. [Speaker 3] (1:02:58 - 1:03:00) That's it, dude. You're getting thrown into the same category. [Speaker 1] (1:03:01 - 1:03:22) I'm reporting you, bro. Oh yeah. I think it's a, well, it just isn't, it isn't a viable language that anybody would ever actually like use for life. It's, I think more of, I think it's more of like a priest, priestly language for ciphering and encoding things is fine. It is what it is, but like Greek is cooler. That's what I think. [Speaker 2] (1:03:22 - 1:03:30) Well, you're listening. You're welcome. You're welcome back on the show. Anytime again, after that statement, just letting you know, I play favorites. [Speaker 1] (1:03:32 - 1:05:45) Well, so like to go back to talk more about the Gnostic ideology of the new age Gnostics, they have this idea of the Demiurge, right? So the Demiurge, I also call them Rex Mundi. Um, and then they, people claim that Jehovah is the Demiurge, the Old Testament. Yep. Bibles God is actually the Demiurge. He's the evil God, you know, and all this, all this is so mind blowing to me. And I, I love how, uh, Michael to bring up to Sarion again in one of his premium presentations. Uh, I had the great pleasure last year of helping him produce some of his premium presentations and doing the, uh, the videos and the editing for that. And so it was great because I wanted to watch them anyway, as a learning experience. And he did a couple on Gnosticism, kind of the origins of the system and refuting some things about the modern beliefs that come with that label. And one of the most obvious things ever is like, so you have this idea of the, uh, the eternal, true, real father, God, what have you. And then that it had emanations and that from these emanations, one of them is wisdom, who is Sophia or Pistes Sophia, which means, yeah, it means faith. As you said, Pistes does. And then she decided that she was going to give birth without a father and try to create without the help of the Supreme God. This is in the ideology that is currently spread around and that this was an abortion and that that being Yaldabaoth, uh, or the Demiurge or Rex Mundi is the one who created the world that we inhabit and that he was like somehow, uh, evil and bad because she created him without the, without the big daddy. And where does this come from again? Like this idea? So, well, where this idea comes from goes further back, but the modern interpretations of this is from the Nag Hammadi or on the origin of the world is like probably the main text that people are citing. [Speaker 4] (1:05:45 - 1:05:46) Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. [Speaker 1] (1:05:46 - 1:10:30) This is all real and true and evidence when that shit could have even been put out as like a red herring and fake or, or, you know, we didn't go translate it ourselves either from the Coptic, but anyway, and we'll get to what I think is the misinterpretation about all this that causes the belief that the, uh, the creator God is the bad guy. I'll get to that, but to just like get into the word Demiurge is from the Greek Demiurgos, which means a craftsman and, uh, like a hired worker or craftsman. And then Rex Mundi, Rex is King Mundi is translated as world. But, uh, I think, and I agree with Higgins on this, that Mundi is a corruption of Amanda and Amanda means the same thing as Gnosis. And so you have like one of the original sex of, uh, so-called Gnostics for the Mandeans. Right. And anyway, um, and Jehovah, Jehovah is a transliteration of the Hebrew Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh. And we can, and I'll, I'll get to more about that, but anyway, um, Manda is Aramaic meaning Gnosis is not a knowledge. M-D-M-N-D-O, which is like Mim, Nun, Dalet, uh, Aleph and Chaldean, which is sharing alphabet with the Hebrew. That means science. So Manda, Gnosis, science, interesting how the cult of scientism is the cult of Gnosticism. It's the same cult. Crazy, right? Yeah. So, um, the other interesting thing too, I can back to that R to L interchange Rex, which is King translates or can swap to become Lex, which is word Logos, Rex Mundi Lex Manda, King of the world or the word of wisdom or the Logos of, of, of knowing. Interesting. Uh, so other versions of the God or savior, the chief deity, the pat or the potter, the pattern like Zeus, Deus, uh, we're called Redemptor Mundi. So Rex Mundi, Redemptor Mundi. There's all these ideas. Um, yeah. So where do I want to go from here? There's like, so this Demiurge character is replete throughout different versions of mythology and history. Again, it's, it's a public servant is the original meaning of the Greek word. But in the Eastern philosophies, it's considered to be an Aeon employed in the creation of the world. And I hope that I remember to get back to this word Aeon because it's super important, but some versions of this in different verse in different mythologies would be Vulcan. There's a blacksmith, uh, Jesus, who's a carpenter, a tie of the Egyptians. There's a potter, Lou of the Irish who's skilled in many arts and thought who brought about writing to the Egyptians. These are, um, thoughts, man, that's definitely Buddha. Thoughts, tats, teos, who doesn't got so many names that if I spent the, uh, 10 minutes reading all the names of Buddha in the history of the world, you'd be like, Oh shit, everything's Buddhism. And it, and it is, I think that's the oldest version of this that you can get down to. So, um, the Aeons are also called the Archons in this philosophy. Archon is a Greek word referring to a Prince, a ruler. In ancient Greece, there were chief magistrates and interesting that the word magistrate is defined in the older dictionaries. I like to get at Webster's 1828 dictionary, really good way to get to what actually meant before modern confusions, but the Archons, um, who are magistrates, magistrate meant God with a lowercase G. So it also means judge. So like, you know, in the legal sorcery of it all, the, uh, the magistrate who is the judge, who is the Prince or the ruler, you used to pray to the God who instead of plea to the judge, but it's the same thing. Whenever you make a plea to the judge, you're praying to the God, a little case G. The Greeks had nine Archons, nine chief magistrates. Sounds a lot like our nine judge Supreme court, right? [Speaker 3] (1:10:30 - 1:10:38) Oh yeah. So I'm just curious, is the word woman in that dictionary that you're referencing on the Webster's 1828? [Speaker 1] (1:10:38 - 1:10:42) Yeah. That's a great question. Can I just look up real quick? [Speaker 2] (1:10:42 - 1:10:57) But he's also, I think curious, you know, unless it says like an adult female, the female of the human race grown to adult years. [Speaker 1] (1:10:57 - 1:11:09) Well, I just laughed because the other day I actually looked up matriarchy in that dictionary and doesn't exist. There is no word for matriarchy in 1828. [Speaker 2] (1:11:10 - 1:11:19) Interesting. I just like, look, I just looked up to like have a copy of the Webster's 1828 dictionary on hand. That's like a hard copy, right? [Speaker 1] (1:11:19 - 1:11:25) Yeah. That would probably be expensive, but the, uh, there's just $30, $39. Really? [Speaker 2] (1:11:26 - 1:11:26) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:11:26 - 1:11:27) I'm asking for that for Christmas, man. [Speaker 2] (1:11:27 - 1:11:28) On Amazon. [Speaker 1] (1:11:28 - 1:11:31) I would love a physical copy. All right. [Speaker 3] (1:11:31 - 1:11:58) So I'm curious. I'm curious because we've spoken a lot about what I guess Gnosticism is, how it presents itself, simulation theories, et cetera. But how does an individual in today's day who goes down these rabbit holes and adopts this philosophy, right? What effects would it have on them in terms of their actions, in terms of their output, in terms of their relationship with themselves, with their bodies and with life? Why is this so sinister? [Speaker 1] (1:12:00 - 1:12:50) That's a really good question. Basically though, the simplest answer is that if you believe that the world is a false prison punishment, loose farm, that's a word they use for it. They say that, you know, we're all just here to be loosed by higher beings. Then you've given yourself the ultimate victim posture. Yeah. I mean, that's the problem. And as soon as you take on that, that position, you're not much more willing to play victim to all kinds of things. And also, I think that if your belief is that you need to escape the world, and so like, how do you do that? Go into a cave and do aesthetic practices until... It actually becomes selfish in an unhelpful way, in my opinion. [Speaker 2] (1:12:50 - 1:13:16) Yeah. Real quickly, real quickly, because on that subject, I'm curious because a lot of people yearn to escape from this world, whether it's aesthetic practices, going in a cave and meditating or taking a certain substance. And I'm curious how that plays into that as well, you know, since we've seen this growth of the trend of people thinking plant medicine is the panacea for all their life's issues. And I'm curious your thoughts on that. [Speaker 1] (1:13:18 - 1:15:03) Yeah, that's complicated, you know, because I have had a relationship with plant medicines that really helped me in the way I used, the intention I used it for. But to, you know, maybe get to the more ancient usage of these plant medicines, I think that in the initiation ceremonies, you would actually use the plant medicines to give the initiate the impression that supernatural stuff was actually happening. You know, it makes the mind very pliable and impressionable. And I think that that is probably why it's being pharmaceuticalized, because it maybe is a logical next step to more programmable humans, possibly. But it's a tough question, because it's a tool. And I don't think any tool is inherently good or bad. It's not the ultimate panacea, but in the right context and usage can be a liberating experience. You know, like that's my relationship with like psilocybin was one of really helpful medicine for integrating some shadow and experiencing the energies that I had been closed off to being able to perceive. But then that wasn't the end of the road. It was like opening some windows in my consciousness so that I could tell that there was like an energetic field that I was a part of that was beyond what I was currently able to sense. And then doing the work with like qigong was the main thing to get more sensitive on the natural and to be able to do that without any kind of help and increase my level of consciousness or sensitivity to energy from there. Yeah, so complicated question. [Speaker 2] (1:15:04 - 1:16:26) Yeah, no, no. Yeah, it is for sure, man. And I appreciate your answer. And I think there's definitely positive experiences that can occur from experience with these substances. I brought it up only because I shared something earlier on Instagram. A previous guest of ours who I consider an expert on the nervous system had interviewed someone who had said literally the ayahuasca wrecked his nervous system. And there were tons and tons of comments that were commenting on that page that were in concurrence. You know, obviously, there's some people that said they had good experiences, but there were a lot also that were saying like it rocked them. And I think in this world where something gets super, super trendy, and every other person has their own personal shaman. I mean, I live in Los Angeles. So there's tons of those quote unquote, spiritual types or new age types, which if you want to chat, talk about in a bit, you know, it's just something that's overused. And you have practitioners who, you know, go spend a few days in the in the Amazon or something, and then they come back and they just identify as being personal shamans and don't have the understanding of human biology, or even some more esoteric elements of this work. And, you know, people go into it super trusting, and you know, it may not always be the best experience. So, you know, I'm always suspect when people are just like promoting something is the greatest thing. And, you know, you have to look at both sides to it. [Speaker 1] (1:16:26 - 1:16:48) So I appreciated your answer on if it's on the Joe Rogan experience, be skeptical. Yeah, I heard it. I heard from his tattoo artist came out and revealed that Joe had never even done DMT that he's promoting stuff to, you know, young people that he's himself doesn't do or never actually did and lies about it. [Speaker 3] (1:16:48 - 1:16:52) Yeah. Which I don't know how to hold documentary on DMT. You reckon he's never even done it? That's crazy. [Speaker 1] (1:16:52 - 1:16:56) According to his tattoo artist. He's never It's interesting. [Speaker 2] (1:16:56 - 1:18:14) Like even like I could speak for myself personally, you know, like in 2009, I spent I spent 10 days living in a tree house in the jungle. And I had gone on a trip around the world backpacking. And I ended up at this, this, this healing center, this shamanic healing center, and I experienced six ceremonies or nine days. And there were some profound experiences. But you know, for me personally, and again, when you think about healing, when you think about becoming more whole, it's a very individual experience. And the thing that had the biggest impact on me and getting more connected to myself and being rooted and grounded was number one, getting completely sober, not because I had an issue, because I made the choice to really want to engage in reality. And the somatic and the deep bodywork that I did, you know, you talk about Qi Gong, there's other things as well. And that for me was like the biggest game changer. Now, maybe for other people, you know, going into a cave or going into a setting with psilocybin or really beneficial. But I just think it's really important that, you know, both sides are honored, you know, that people need to understand these are powerful, powerful substances, and they need to have some reverence and respect and not just go in blindly and know themselves. Self-knowledge comes into play here. It's like, well, do you know yourself? You know, what's the state of your nervous system? You know, these things can have an impact that people need to become aware of. Anyways, those are my final thoughts on that. [Speaker 1] (1:18:14 - 1:20:38) It's good to say. I want to point out what you made me realize in this conversation about, you know, is the world of, I'm coming at it from like the absolutely not is the world of energy harvesting, prison, loose factory. But I'm saying that the world isn't inherently that. It's not designed for that. That's not what it is on the highest, like the highest truth of the world. But in the world, there are energy harvesting, loosing operations, bad, you know, witchcrafty shaman, like false shamans that will actually set up energetic cords and tethers to people that they that came to them in a vulnerable state and like actually harvest energy and do weird shit. I've seen some shit when I was on psychedelics in, you know, in places. So I know that there's maybe something to that. But now in this realm of energy and the sort of beyond the physical, we're now talking about subjective experiences that while there may be validity and use to them as subjective experiences, we cannot bring that into the conversation as this is what it is. You know, we can't, we got to be aware of like what we can and can't make a claim about for the consensus reality of all people. We have subjective experiences and then we have like the actual consensus reality where knowledge can come to us through our senses in a shared way that we can all verify. And then we may push the boundaries of that as we go forward as humanity moves forward. And that's fine. But like, I'm definitely all about cutting, cutting it off where we, where we need to in terms of what we're making a claim about. So yeah, there is energy harvesting, there is negative forces at work. There are archons, but like my claim is that the archons are human. Now, like maybe there are, maybe spiritual forces are a play that are more, what you would call demonic or negative acting through those humans. But now we're in a realm where I can't make a claim that I have proof or evidence for. Now we're in the speculative realm and that's fine if someone has that belief or worldview. But I just want to help people with the belief that the highest truth is that everything is demonic and evil and false. I don't think that's the highest truth. [Speaker 3] (1:20:39 - 1:21:22) Got it. I agree. I agree. And just back on the plant medicine topic quickly, like intention matters, right? Anything can be abused. But what's the intentionality versus if it's being used habitually? Because obviously, you know, I've had incredible experiences. I've never anything hardcore. I've smoked some weed in my day and I have a pretty good relationship with it. That's something that I don't abuse. It's something when my body kind of knows, I'm ready for, I'll get some insight with. And that is what it is. So I think there is definitely benefits to this. But again, what's the intention? And that's with all things, anything that you do, that's what matters, right? What's your relationship with it? [Speaker 1] (1:21:23 - 1:21:35) Yeah. I mean, personally, I've done DMT. I've talked to the giant holographic head in the sky. I've had those experiences. There's something definitely to it. [Speaker 3] (1:21:35 - 1:21:42) Yeah. I had a question before you were asked the most hijack this whole conversation. [Speaker 1] (1:21:42 - 1:24:55) Well, let me take us, if you get it, just interrupt me. But I want to take us back to this idea of the archons, because this is an important aspect of the whole belief of New Age Gnosticism is that the archons are these seven, like demonic, uh, minor gods that are under the Demiurge is the main God. And so they'll, you know, people will correlate that to like the, uh, the traditional seven planets are, are these archons and that your seven chakras are actually like, uh, locks put onto your energetics to harvest your energy and keep you trapped here. And so you got to unlock your chakras and the chakras are the archons and all this stuff is like really commonplace in the conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy. So let's just break down the word archon. Archie or arche in Greek means the beginning origin or head. And then our, and that's where you get the word archon for ruler or magistrate. So at he, at he, and also remember that word that we used before, uh, the Argo Navis, we were talking about Noah's Ark. So there's that. The, uh, the Ark is a boat in, in the mystery traditions that signifies the Yoni. In fact, the, uh, the mystery of the Lingam and Yoni, the pole and the hole, the sec, this is what the ancient mysteries were always centering around because it's the, the generative principle is the, the mysterious, uh, life force energy that creates and perpetuates life. Right. So, um, the, uh, Septuagint and, uh, Philo, the Greek philosopher and many others have actually used the word Arche, which is, uh, alpha, rho, he, eight, uh, eta, right. That's Arche. It means wisdom to the Septuagint and to Philo. Septuagint is the, the ancient Hebrew philosopher group. And that's the side side tangent. But now we're talking about with this word Archon, we're referring to wisdom again. So that is interesting. And, uh, because we have this, everything's coming from who, uh, Sophia, which means wisdom. And you have a palace, Athena, which palace means wisdom. By the way, uh, you have, um, let's see, there's like a bunch of names of the, uh, the goddesses of wisdom. So I'm just going to hold that thought and go into the, uh, the Archons from the, from the origin of the world text from the Nag Hammadi. So they named them seven appeared in chaos, androgynous, they have their masculine names and their feminine names. Uh, the feminine name is Pronoia, which means forethought and Sam Bathas, which is week as in the week. So there you seven Archon, seven days of the week. Hmm. And Sam, Sam means is a, as a name for the sun, Sam and Shem. That's where you get Samson in the old Testament. [Speaker 2] (1:24:56 - 1:24:59) So where Samson, is that where Samson comes from the company? [Speaker 1] (1:24:59 - 1:26:06) Yeah. And I'll just probably do it. A lot of these companies are like totally solar, um, cold derived for sure. So just like to name a couple of them as they're given in this text without reading all this is like, you have, uh, Sabaoth, which you have, uh, Adonai, Adonaios, Adonaios. So Adonai, um, there's your Adam character. You have Elios. Well, that's Helios without the H in front of it. Sun. Yeah. You have Oreos, Ore is also a name for the sun. Oreo cookies. Oreos. You have Astafeos, uh, Asta, Aster talking about stars here. And then, uh, that's actually the masculine name for Sophia is Astafeos according to this. Um, so none of this, I'm not making any claims about this being like true or accurate doctrine. This is just the, this is the text that people's new age Gnosticism is derived from that they themselves never read, you know? [Speaker 2] (1:26:06 - 1:27:03) So, um, I think what you like, even just this conversation, cause you know, I think we're getting heavy into some research stuff and etymology and language and symbolism and in a different way than we have maybe on, on, on other shows. And it just is such proof when people, we live in a modern world now where people listen, like they get a headline and they're just out there spouting off the headline as the truth because it showed up on their Instagram feed or their Facebook feed. And it's like, look at this level of research, you know, to really get to the bottom of things to explore. And it's like, you know, it's a process, man. Like you can't just sit here and be like, oh yeah, whatever. I just have my job nine to five. And then I go home and I watched the news for six, for an hour, 30 minutes and be like, everybody, this is what's going on in the world. And this is what history is all about. It's just ridiculous to me. So I just appreciate this level of, this level of research that. [Speaker 3] (1:27:03 - 1:27:11) Yeah. But I mean, to bring a full circle against me, that's a symptom of Gnosticism. The refusal to go deep, right? The thing is everything's hopeless. [Speaker 1] (1:27:11 - 1:27:13) I already know. I'm Gnostic. I already know. [Speaker 3] (1:27:14 - 1:27:33) Exactly. Exactly. Trust the science. Yeah. And plus just looking for someone else that knows, looking for some other source that has the information, someone else that I can just fully put all my trust in to believe that they have all the answers. They have all the truth. And as long as I'm following them on Instagram, then I'm going to be okay. Cause I know the truth as well. Like it's ridiculous. [Speaker 1] (1:27:35 - 1:28:39) Yeah, man. And honestly, like, I appreciate the compliment on the depth of research. It's not special though. Like I'm not a special boy. I went and read some of the source material, you know, like I went and read the, on the origin of the world from the Nag Hammadi text and, and had some keys to decipher it from previous research into language and etymology. But like, you know, I started the journey in terms of where I'm at and what I'm the way, the perspective that I'm looking at things in like 2020. So it's not like it's some huge life a struggle to, to actually get these keys. Like, that's why I really like the spirit world books that I brought up. Why I always promote Dylan's work because he he has done this work for a lot longer and he refines it down into the keys that are the quickest things to internalize. So that when you look at any of the mythology or any of the scriptures for yourself, now you have, now you can see the pattern because it's all about the patterns. And once you see the patterns, then things reveal themselves to you. [Speaker 2] (1:28:39 - 1:29:18) Yeah. I think that's also why we're obviously all three of us have been influenced and have great respect for Michael Desarian. You know, you're looking at decades of research and doing a lot of the books and reading obscure books that he probably, you know, found who knows where and did a lot of work. And, you know, you get to, you get to read some of this stuff or study some of his or listen to a podcast and go, Oh wow. Okay. I can, I can really get an understanding from someone who has done deeper, deeper work because, you know, do I want to do that level of depth of work in that specific area? Maybe that's not for me. You know, there's other things that, that I put more of my focus on, but again, this is why it's amazing to have some scholars that, you know, go deep, deep, deep into these areas. [Speaker 3] (1:29:18 - 1:29:30) Yeah. And the truth is, chance you say it's not special, but compared to the standard that we're up against, it is special, man. Like that's, that's, that's just the reality. Most people are getting bite-sized everything, you know? [Speaker 2] (1:29:31 - 1:29:34) So they don't give, most people do not give a shit about the etymology. [Speaker 1] (1:29:34 - 1:29:37) Like three hour podcasts that I do a lot. [Speaker 2] (1:29:37 - 1:30:24) Yeah. And the most people don't care about the etymology of a word, you know, like they don't. And I'm sitting here saying I'm fascinated by this, but I haven't done in this area, like what you're talking about, this subject is not like my wheelhouse and yet I'm fascinated by it. So respect, man. And that's why we also wanted to have you on because we wanted to expose our audience to this. I mean, we talk about narcissism and we talk about like new age world and how these are ideologies that people need to be really mindful of because are they guiding you towards living, living in truth and grounded and being the best you can be? Or are they things to, you know, to be concerned about? And so to, to get to this understanding and to look into some of the language and the symbolism is really cool. [Speaker 1] (1:30:25 - 1:30:53) Yeah. And actually the ancient doctrines themselves aren't even the problem. It is the modern interpretation headline soundbite version that people are taking and running with. And I think it's promoted on purpose because it's helpful for, you know, it's very helpful for the master-slave dynamic for the masters. If the slaves believe that they're slaved out to an evil God, then of course they're going to accept the slavery from the human archons, right? [Speaker 3] (1:30:53 - 1:31:43) Of course. The philosophy you put in is what you're going to get out. And if your philosophy is that everything is fucked, everything is evil, everything is distorted, everything's hopeless, everything's helpless, then of course you're going to remain in mediocrity for your entire life. That's what you're inputting, right? So unless you can really come to grips with what I'm consuming, you know, obviously not just from a physical perspective, from all information, and get to the real truth and find truth that actually lifts you up, makes you feel reverent about who you actually are, about the fact that you exist as a human being within this, you know, incredibly mysterious and amazing cosmos, then, you know, well, what kind of life are you setting yourself up for? And to me, you're right, it's the perfect philosophy to create a slave race. [Speaker 2] (1:31:43 - 1:31:52) Yeah. And imagine really, like, your foundational belief is, my body's a prison, you know, that it is something that I need to transcend. [Speaker 1] (1:31:52 - 1:31:54) Are you going to take care of that body? [Speaker 2] (1:31:54 - 1:33:32) Well, you know, yeah. Are you going to? And like, you know, I've met people who are hyper, hyper, like, spiritual, and I put that in quotes, and like, many of them, like, they don't look very healthy, you know? And so it's just, again, this idea of, and Joel, Joel, I know you, you've talked about this, but like, ascension versus the opposite, like, I feel like evolving is more of a grounding of coming back home into the body, not leaving it. And these, this is what some of these ideologies support. And, you know, being someone who's a bodyworker, being someone who is in the somatic world, and I mentioned earlier, like, doing this kind of work, really coming back home into myself, into my body, understanding the subtleties of sensation, how that connects to my emotional life, my behavior, that shit was game-changing, man. It's like, that's like Jedi training, you know? I really believe that. Instead of, like, not even knowing your body, not even understanding your biology, this is why I'm such an advocate of German New Medicine, is like, to really understand nature, the truth of your biology, really, you know, on why these adaptations happen, and what happens to body healing, is so, so important. It's so empowering, and it really brings you to a place of self-responsibility like no other. Instead of being at the mercy of the scientists, I put that in quote, you know, in scientism, and these doctors that have been indoctrinated in ways that don't support health at the highest levels. The highest wisdom is the body. [Speaker 1] (1:33:32 - 1:36:52) Yeah. The body is, as an image of the cosmos, as a fractal of the whole, it actually contains the entirety of all information of the whole. So, the only thing keeping us from these deep levels of intuitive knowing, of actual gnosis, that's what actual gnosis is, when you, it just wells up within you, and you know it, is that we do, our humans are lacking the language to communicate with their body. So, I'll give a little example. So, I do biofield tuning. I have this biofield anatomy, which is a map of the energy field of the body, and where different types of energies, when they're stuck, what kind of emotional situations can arise from it. And this is a language that lets me communicate with my body, and communicate with other people's bodies in a very amazingly deep way, with intuition can come through that is just mind-blowing, to the point where I can wave tuning forks around in my living room, and somebody in Australia who's on a Zoom call with me, I can tell them, you've had painful issues with your ankles your whole life, haven't you? And they'll say, I've broke my left ankle three times, and my right ankle two times in my life, and they never told me that up front. Or like my mom, my mom yesterday, she was complaining a bit, and expressing a lot of frustration over my great uncle, her uncle, who is like way senile, I think he's sweet, and he's funny, but he's like frustratingly out of his mind, you know, and she's the one main person who helps him. She's expressing this story about him doing some crazy stuff, and she's like very energetically frustrated, I can feel it. And I'm like, how's your lower back? And she's like, it's killing me today. I'm like, yeah, the energy of frustration is like, I can feel the energy of frustration, and I know where it lives in your biofield, and I know how it correlates to your body, and I could just pick up that it's hurting your back. Or another, you know, another person who's versed in a different language of the body can just look at how your posture is being held, and you know, the balance of how far forward your head is on your spine, and like different things like that, and they can tell you things about yourself, or someone can read the irises of your eyeballs and tell you how your organs are functioning. There's a bazillion different languages that we can learn to access the knowing and wisdom contained within the body that is the fractal microcosm of the all. And so it's like really crucial to learn at least one of these languages, because it can totally transform your life. When I get hurt, or I get an illness now, I can point to the external situation or the difficulty I'm having with another person or whatever, and go, oh, I am hurt because I'm not fully dealing with this situation. And when I can, when I make that connection, it actually allows me to more deeply feel, express and thus release the emotion. You know, I might be kind of pissed off, but when I realized that, oh, it's actually causing me to get hurt, I might actually even feel the sadness come out. I even get a little choked up, might actually have the real emotional release that was necessary the whole time. And being able to connect the dots of the external world situation to the energetics in the body is what unlocks that for me. Otherwise, I might have just gone on and left the tension in there and not dealt with it for another 10 years. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:36:53 - 1:38:08) But you know what the thing is, man, do you think someone who's lived 30 years of hedonism, casted all these shadows for themselves, do you think they're going to be interested in getting to know the body and looking at the body and really understanding themselves on a deep level? Or is the little shiny light that says, nah, man, everything's fucked. You can escape. He's the key. Don't worry about it. It's not your fault. Don't go into the light. The light is a trap. How attractive would that seem to the individual who's developed so much shame from a life of inauthenticity that something can say, drop it all. Forget the past. Forget the future. Forget everything. Drop the ego. Drop the ego. It's like, okay, perfect. Now I'm just going to morph into... Shave my head, wear the yellow robe, and just morph from the corporate type to the monk, whatever it might be. We see it so often. So it takes work to actually get to the point of reverence for self, of reverence for the body. Because at the end of the day, you have to face the lies within yourself. You have to face the illusion within yourself. But if you have a doctrine that says, nah, everything's an illusion, there's no point discovering it. Then of course, that's why people take this on. That's why they wear the cloak. [Speaker 1] (1:38:09 - 1:47:04) Yeah, buddy. And it's also about the choice. Somebody that had 30 years of hedonism, and then today they decide, I'm going to actually step into the light here, the progress and the rapidity of transformation that they can make. I think there's even a quickening to that as more of us across a fractal are doing this work ourselves. Someone else can step into the neurological pathways that we've been mining and digging out in the collective consciousness and catch up to where we're at a lot faster than us who were digging the tunnel up to that point. I know it's kind of like the hundred monkey effect. I remember seeing girls hula at festivals 10 years ago, and they were pretty good at it. And then years later, a girl would pick up a hula hoop for the first time within a month. She'd be as good as the best who'd been doing it for years. There's something about that. So in a way, us doing the work, especially those of us who've embodied our wholeness and have done so much to continue the purification process for our body, at a point, once you've really integrated your own personal stuff and you're using what you've got, you're actually doing work on the fractal. That's why the healing process never ends. Even once you find wholeness, you can keep purifying, keep balancing. And it's universal at a certain point. It's pretty amazing. Yeah. About another thing I want to throw out there that just popped in my head that's kind of fascinating is the New Age Gnosticism doctrine. Part of it that gets spread around is how after you die, the white light, go into the tunnel of light and you see dead grandma or Jesus or Buddha. And those are actually aliens who are impersonating grandma to get you to go into the and the light is actually a trap to force you. They made me reincarnate. They made me live again. They made me have a life. How dare they? And now my soul has been recycled back into the loose prison is what they believe. So they're literally like part of the dogma is like, and it's one of those unprovable things, of course. So they get a pass on it is like, oh yeah, the fact that there's white light when people have near death experiences in a tunnel, it's proof of what everything we're saying and that it's all a trap and a trick. And so don't go into the light, avoid the light, hide from the light. Yeah. Well, what else, where else can you hide from the light in the womb? It's like a super hyper feminized in a negative sense, imbalanced feminization overall, like a lot of these guys that are preaching this stuff, if they would maybe just go to the gym, get to the point where they're actually attractive to females, they might have a completely different perspective about the world they're in, you know, it's body, it's body hating. So anyway, like this, not going into the light is fascinating because in the biofield, there's the, the root chakra energy off to the left side, like around the left hip and past it, it carries the signature when they're stuck energy there of both, both laziness or indolence, and also want not wanting to be seen wanting to hide from the world. So they can kind of go hand in hand, make someone might not be lazy on purpose, but they're afraid of the light. They're afraid of being seen. They're afraid of seeing themselves. And so it causes this inactivity, this laziness. And I just find that fascinating that in the same way, not wanting to be seen, there's this don't go into the light part of this whole dogma of the person that doesn't want to actually like embody and save, save themselves. But, you know, like we're getting kind of deep into the time here. And I want to, I really want to flesh out this idea of emanations and the Trinity to finally like help us conceive of where this Demiurge concept comes from. So that we can see it the way that I think the ancients meant it rather than as an evil devil. Well, man, we've got about 10 minutes, if you can keep it as succinct as possible. Yeah, I think I can do this. So basically, the the idea of emanations in the Trinity is an ancient ancient ancient oriental doctrine that is replete throughout all the different spiritual systems of the world. And it's basically the three forms of one God, thrice great, Hermes, Trismegistus, all these different versions of it. So the creator, oh, by the way, Hermes, if you switch the R to the L, talking Helios. Anyway, the three forms of one God, the emanations is basically the idea that there's the eternal, self-existing being, beingness itself of nature, and that it emanates three or Trinity, three persons in one. So that's the creator, the destroyer, and the savior. And the sun is a good is an emblem of this as it goes through spring, summer and winter, it follows this Trinity pattern. And in Hinduism, you have Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, by the way, Vishnu, V and F interchange between Latin and Sanskrit. So Vishnu, like your Jesus fish. Or Dagon, Dag, Dag backwards is Gad, in Hebrew goes right to left, or, you know, right to left instead of left to right. So that you can also reverse things and get a lot of information out of that. You have Adam and his emanations, or I'm sorry, three sons, Abel, Cain and Seth. You have Noah, who is chaos, as I mentioned, the origin, the pleroma, and that his three sons are Shem, Ham and Japheth. Jehovah has the father, Holy Ghost, the son, it goes on and on. There's like tons of versions of this, even in the creation story from the Nag Hammadi, Pistes, or Sophia has three emanations her own. Sophia, little Sophia, that's part of why it's so confusing. It's not the same as Pistes, Eve and Zoe. And Pistes even sounds like Pisces, or like a Vesica Pisces, or which is also the same, practically the same word as where we get the, whatchamacallit, the Vishnu, Fishnu, Jesus fish. Well, Pisces, Pisces, right? Right, exactly. And so the Vesica Pisces is an important concept too, because this is, I think, where the idea of the Trinity is kind of originating. So you have the pattern, which is a circle, and that's the father, the pater, and that circle is the all, it encompasses all, and then it mirrors itself and divides, or it doesn't really divide, it multiplies. So you may have two circles, but when the two circles overlap, one moves away to the right, Jesus at the right hand of God, the overlapping creates a third shape. So the monad, whenever it generates the duad, the duad in and of itself creates the triad or Trinity, because the two circles create a third shape, which is basically, there's your idea of the mother, father, and the son or the child, which is the middle shape, the mediator, which is the psychopomp, the one that's in between the worlds, if you will, that's your savior. So what is important to understand in terms of where this idea of the devil and the God being the same being, I think comes into play is that, as I said, when the monad generates the duad, this is all my opinion, by the way, the second being is, if the first being is the creator, the second being is the destroyer, that's the polarity of it. But the destroyer in the ancient versions of the Trinity, this is not my opinion, the destroyer is the regenerator. Because like when the sun destroys all the vegetation in winter, it's necessary so that things can regenerate in the spring. So in the confusion of the ancient doctrines and the idolatry of concepts that were meant to be more philosophical, people have confused this idea of the destroyer and made it its own entity. Interestingly that it came about about the same time that the calendar switched from being a three season calendar to a four. I find that interesting that the Trinity split off the destroyer from the regenerator and it became its own being. [Speaker 3] (1:47:05 - 1:47:12) Well, that even brings to mind for me fungus, right, which is always present in nature at the scene of death and decay, but is also the regenerative force. [Speaker 1] (1:47:13 - 1:51:59) Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I'll try to move this a little quickly, but it's important to understand that the three persons of the Trinity are one person. That's key. So the creator, destroyer, regenerator, preserver, savior. So let's go to the most ancient version of this, the Tetragrammaton, or as Pythagoras called it the Tetractys, Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh in Hebrew, transliterated by most people as J-H-V-H or Y-H-V-H. Yep. Hebrew letters, especially the ones that make vowel sounds, can actually transliterate to different letters, multiple possibilities. So J-H-V-H, Jehovah, Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh could also transliterate to I-E-V-E, Yev, also can transliterate to Yov. So anyway, Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh is Jehovah and Eve. It's the same word. In fact, Bacchus, one of the versions of the creator deity, the mediator, if you will, the son of God, was also worshiped in some areas as a snake called Eve. So I'm going to read you straight out of the Divine Androgyne, by the way, the Hermaphrodite. Okay, so the mediator is male and female because it's between mother and the father. So this is straight from the Nag Hammadi, Origin of the World. Now Eve is the first virgin, the one who without a husband bore her first offspring. It is she who served as her own midwife. For this reason she is said, held to have said, It is I who am the part of my mother, and it is I who am the mother. It is I who am the wife, it is I who am the virgin. It is I who am pregnant, it is also I who am the midwife. It is I who am the one that comforts pains of travail. It is my husband who bore me, and it is I who am his mother. And it is he who is my father and my Lord. And it is he who is my force. What he desires he says with reason. I am in the process of becoming, yet I have born a man as Lord. So why I read this is just to help people understand and portray that this idea of the destroyer that was created by Sophia, who is later in the text actually just Eve. So it's very confusing. You understand that we're talking about three persons of one trinity, and they just have different multiple names. The creator, the demiurge, the craftsman is the mother. Because when the monad splits into the duad, the second circle contains the shape that is the mediator, the vesicopecies, the yoni, the portal. Just like a mother, when she's pregnant, her son is inside of her, a part of her. So the duad is both the mother, Mary, mother of God. They worship Mary as God. Mary is the name of Jesus' mother. Maya is the name of Buddha's mother. Maya is the name of Mercury's mother. Maya is the name of the illusion, according to the Brahmins, that is the physical world. So the last thing that I want to say in closing, because I know we're coming up to the end here, is that it's my personal opinion that the one, the first circle, the pleroma, the monad, is actually the entire night sky or day sky, the whole sky itself. That's the father, the sky father, uranus, anu, which is a word that means year, but in the Sumerian is the name of the all-father. And then the sun is the emblem of the mediator, like the sun is the emblem or symbol or chariot that the mediator, the creator, the demurge, rides in as it travels throughout the whole night sky. And anyway, we'll stop there, but I could go on about this stuff forever. The important thing to understand is just that the idea of the destroyer is, in my opinion, or the devil, is a separation and an idolatry of the idea of the trinity separating the destroyer from the regenerator and not understanding that they're all aspects of being, that nature operates in this cycle that we call the trinity. And then it does it in every, you know, this trinity is part of every structure of life and physicality in the manifest realm. [Speaker 2] (1:52:00 - 1:52:19) Cool, man. Dude, first of all, thank you for sharing all this. One thing I do want to highlight, though, is that I love, you spoke about the trinity, and pretty much every one of our podcasts is a trinity. You know, when you think about Joel, myself, and you right now, and there's this single trinity that goes on. So I like that. Maybe that's why our podcast is popular. [Speaker 1] (1:52:21 - 1:52:25) Three is a magic number. It's the first thing that gives form and stability. [Speaker 3] (1:52:26 - 1:52:37) Yeah, man. The Daodejing, right? From the one comes the two, from the two comes the three, from the three all things are possible, or something like that. I'm sure I mucked that up, but again. [Speaker 1] (1:52:37 - 1:53:19) Oh yeah, well, the Daodejing, what you're quoting is actually verbatim, also a statement attributed to Hermes in one of the texts of Heliopolis in Egypt. I'm the one that becomes two. I'm the two that becomes four. I'm the four that becomes eight. After that, I'm one again. So I think amongst many other things, it's also referring to the analemma of the sun, the figure eight shape that the sun makes in the sky, which I believe is a large degree of why Hermes was called Lord Eight, and all this eight symbolism referring to him. And then we look at the glyph for eight, it's the two circles. It's the monad becoming a duad. [Speaker 2] (1:53:21 - 1:53:40) Yeah, it's so fascinating, man. Really, I love hearing everything you have to say. It's definitely a lot to chew on. And I think for our audience, Chance referred a few books. I definitely want to message you to see if there's any other books that you recommend on these subjects too, that we can maybe put down in the show notes too. [Speaker 1] (1:53:40 - 1:54:14) I'll throw one more out there. This is called The Celestial Code of Scripture by John McHugh. It's the astral cipher underlying the miracle stories of the Bible and Quran. And he's coming at it from the cuneiform, Sumerian and Akkadian side, but going through and using great illustrations as well to show you that like every story from the Bible and from the Quran, every miracle story is actually put up there in the stars and that they came up with the story and called that history from looking at the stars. Incredible. It's tight. [Speaker 2] (1:54:15 - 1:54:22) It's pretty much for all you out there, quit looking down at your phones, start looking up at the sky and gain some wisdom. [Speaker 1] (1:54:23 - 1:54:23) Get a planisphere. [Speaker 3] (1:54:25 - 1:54:31) Chance, brother, what do you have for our audience? How can I find you? What are you offering these days? What's going on? [Speaker 1] (1:54:31 - 1:55:51) Yeah, dude. Interversepodcast.com is where you'll find everything I do. I've got two shows a week, if not more, that I do. And now I'm branching out into doing more original research. So some solo shows are probably going to happen in the future. I just did one a little while ago. I cover the gamut. My favorite stuff is, of course, the symbolism and mythology and the language because it's endlessly fascinating. And you'll never run out of connections to make and it's blow your own mind all the time. Like, I can't believe I didn't ever look at that word that way before. And it's always like right under our nose all the time. In our language. But I also do tuning. I use tuning forks to balance and bring coherence to energy fields for people. Amazing results. And people can find out more about that on my website or just to go to my channel. And one of the newest episodes with Eileen McKusick is a good one where we talk about tuning who I learned it from. And I do Oracle sessions with I Ching and Tarot as well. If that's something people are interested in, they can always just email me chance interverse podcast dot com if they want more information on anything I brought up. And I can send you a link directly to whatever you're curious about or just explore the content on my YouTube page or the podcast player app for whichever one you like and look up Interverse. [Speaker 3] (1:55:52 - 1:56:13) Awesome, man. Chance, thank you so much for your time, for your research, and honestly, just for your passion, man, and for the light that you continue to shine. I love seeing the path that you're on and I'm looking forward to seeing the evolution continue for sure. Guys, if you've listened to this entire podcast and you're still here with us, we think you're very special as well. And we'll see you next time. Take care, everyone.