Kelly Brogan, MD Ending the War of the Sexes

[Speaker 3] (0:00 - 0:07) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth Podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 2] (0:10 - 2:01) What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Here for the Truth Podcast. I'm Joel Rafiti. I've got my co-host Yerasimos with me, as always. Today, Kelly Brogan has returned. We last saw her way back on episode 87. Today, we're talking about what she's been diving into lately, particularly gender, polarity, healing the relationships between men and women, and how we can better relate in general within those dynamics, within our relationships, and within all areas of our lives. Right before Kelly comes on, wherever you're listening to this, whether it's Spotify or Apple or anywhere else, hit the follow button. Stay up to date with our episodes that come out. Or if you're on our website, you can subscribe and join our mailing list and stay up to date there as well. Also, if you know someone who might be impacted and affected by our podcast and receive a lot of value out of it, please share it with them, too. We love being introduced to new people and having the opportunity to really affect and impact someone else's worldview and introduce them to new and life-changing information. We appreciate you all. We appreciate you listening. The journey does continue. Here is Kelly Brogan. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Here for The Truth podcast. Today, we have the return of Kelly Brogan, who first joined us way back on Episode 87, a name that probably needs not much of an introduction. But just in case, she's a holistic psychiatrist, a New York Times bestselling author, and reclamation queen. She specializes in a root cause resolution approach, psychiatric syndromes, and symptoms. She's on a mission to hold the vision for your embodied reclamation and whole life empowerment with guidance, resources, and community so that you can shed your struggle and finally choose yourself to experience the specific pleasure of who you are. Kelly, welcome back to Here for The Truth. [Speaker 1] (2:02 - 2:08) I love those words in your mouth with your accent. It's so great. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. [Speaker 2] (2:09 - 2:15) Oh, it's awesome to have you here. I want to dive straight in. What does being human really mean to you? [Speaker 1] (2:17 - 10:13) Hmm. So, I was a big Waldorf fan, you know, Waldorf school system, and have two daughters. And at the time, when I was with my former partner, he has two daughters, and we were really sort of in the zone of what Waldorf offers. And so, I did a lot of reading of Steiner, Rudolf Steiner, and explored a lot of what he had to say, you know, not only about agriculture, medicine, and anthroposophy, but also education. And I learned about this idea of the middle way, right, which can be, has a lot of shadow to it. It's almost sometimes like in a spiritual bypass and opt out, right? Like, oh, the middle way, integrative medicine, like, you know, a little fish oil with your chemotherapy kind of a thing. And I've really been somebody who's very interested in polarities, right? Like, pick a lane, right? So, I'm either like prescribing to pregnant women or, you know, I'm specialized in getting everybody off their meds kind of a thing. So, this idea that Steiner talks about, which is a movement beyond duality, right? So, I have a point here, so just hear me for a minute, which is, you know, these two forces that he describes as Luciferic and Eremonic. And maybe you know about this. I didn't until I started to like explore his work back in the day before Waldorf became totally recuperated and began shilling for the current agenda. At the time, I really got a lot out of this. So, in a very simplistic way, we can describe what he talks about as Luciferic energies, as being transcendent energies, right? Like, moving into the light, right? So, but in your daily experience through meditation, through ecstatic practices, and this is so much of what the new age is built on, is how do you get out of this meat suit and find God, right? So, you know, you can do that in so many ways, whether it's through, you know, plant medicine ceremonies or breath work or different kinds of fasting. You can sort of shed the struggle and burden of the material world and you can merge into the oneness here and now, right? Then there's the Eremonic energies, which are the polarity, right? Which is really sort of like the selfish gene Darwinism, atheism, materialism. It's a lot of what allopathic medicine is based and founded on, which is like, there's nothing to see beyond what you can quantify and measure. And so much of our dominant consciousness now exists in these two polarities. So, we have strong spiritual movement, you know, towards finding God in the light. And then we have strong materialistic, you know, dominant reality that says, you know, the way I was trained as a psychiatrist, right? That the soul doesn't even really matter or exist. It's not a relevant entity. And if we just sit in the tension of those two, we miss what I think is the point of incarnating, right? The point of the experience and why if you believe that we chose to come down here, why it is that we might have chosen to enter what could even objectively be described as a realm of suffering, right? You look around and there's animals eating each other and death and violence and just so much toil, right? So much of an inherent challenge to finding what we know is our birthright, which is experience of our own vitality and experience of joy, experiences of ecstasy. And so, he talked about Christ consciousness, right? So, this middle path that is the proper complementarity of the two, which is finding God through your body. And that to me is the delight, that we came here to experience, right? We cannot experience that in the oneness, that he says, or they say, study his work, that the light is just as blinding as the darkness when it's too bright. So, how is it that we came here to know desire? Of course, we can only know desire through what it is that we don't want, right? That's how most of us orient towards what it is that we do want because we have an experience that feels bad and it feels bad for a reason, right? Suffering is not just a punishment from on high, it's a guidance system. And when we are in these bodies, we can feel the paradox of being separate yet connected through love and the imperative of experiencing both freedom and love, right? Like both autonomy and union. And playing in this paradox is an enlivening experience. And an enlivening experience is really the unlocking, right? Of energy flow through your vessel. I mean, that's like literally what's going on and it feels good. And that then becomes really sort of the navigational system for what it is that we do while we're here, right? And of course, there's the challenge of working with our consciousness and working with our thought forms and working with our awareness and the polarity that's built in to us when it comes to awareness and energy flow or consciousness and love light as David Data would say. And so, I think that is what being human is all about, is like how do you navigate that middle path? How do you understand that that's perhaps what we incarnated for and how do you begin to relate to challenges and adversity through a lens that suggests that's exactly what needs to happen in order for you to reclaim the elements that you came here to experience. It's not a mistake, it's not a problem, it's actually the deal, right? And coming into these bodies, obviously what most of us are calling embodiment, is complicated by a lot of our programs and a lot of our beliefs about what I refer to as our erotic energy, our animating life force energy, whether you want to call it Shakti or Chi or whatever it is that works for you to refer to it as. And working with that process of unlocking that can be a very ascetic path. You can do a lot of Kundalini yoga or you can have tantric sex. There's just so many options. And what I've really been exploring on my own in these past couple of years is how do I really play in the creative space of my own femininity to see how I can quiet my mind through those practices, dance or singing or simple exercises. I'm a big fan of Betty Martin and she teaches exercises like waking up the hands, how you can start to really become aware of sensations that are available just in the here and now and turn your skin on so that you can begin to relate to yourself in a sacred manner, I guess. [Speaker 2] (10:15 - 10:59) Beautifully said. And I couldn't agree more. I think what's so deeply conditioned is this idea that we need to escape, whether it's escaping from our bodies or escaping from this planet or this idea that we live in some kind of fallen or lower realm, or even just the notion that there's a more profound and better afterlife. But then what does that mean for this experience? Unconsciously, we immediately bring it down a notch in terms of this experience. We think there's something better later. So can you go into a little bit of some of the specifics about how you started to bring more vitality to your personal experience on a biological level, maybe some specifics about some of the burdens and the programs that you were dealing with yourself and what that journey looked like for you? [Speaker 1] (11:00 - 12:01) Yeah. So I have come to look at this trajectory, which as it turns out, felt very special in my own life. And then I would see pretty much the same architecture, like journey architecture in my patients for 10 years and then in my program participants. And I would just keep seeing kind of the same elements. And what I have observed, again, I like things simple. I like little bulleted lists. I like to organize things into categories. And I am a psychiatrist by training, which means I'm pretty good at pattern recognition because that's all that psychiatry is, is human behavioral pattern recognition. So I have observed that for many of us, if you even want to say Jungian, individuation journey, it consists of like two dominant phases. The first is what I call the big fuck no. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on this cast. [Speaker 3] (12:02 - 12:06) You can say whatever you want on this podcast. I'm from Jersey. I say the fuck word often. [Speaker 1] (12:07 - 13:06) That's right. Me too, man. Oh my gosh. Yes. That's actually, you know, sort of to your point, desecrating my like massive trucker mouth, it has only happened in the past year. I mean, if you look at my public appearances, you look at my podcasting, you look at my guests, you know, speaking, I never, never one time ever said like hell or damn or not even like the like cute ones, nothing. So that's actually been a part of my process is to just be, this is, this is for better or worse. So this is me and all my friends know that, but then I would like put on this avatar, you know, this kind of white coat avatar and, you know, she would never show up in the tank top she danced in earlier, you know, she would make sure to speak in a certain very rigid regulated way. And the investment of my life force into this identity became a prison. And so anyway, that's an aside, but so. [Speaker 3] (13:06 - 13:30) But I want to get back to what you were saying, but also like this is even, and we've touched upon it before, but like even parts work, you know, even this idea that like you're, you're operating from a certain way and yet there's a rigidity that happens. And I think for the physical body, as you open up the physical body that impacts how things operate from like a more psyche standpoint where you have access to parts of you anyways, 100%. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (13:30 - 34:08) And so, so what I've noticed is like, you know, there is this in psychology, it's called a rupture of empathy. It's like the moment of cognitive dissonance that defines your trajectory. And I call it the big fuck no. And what I think of that being is the masculine initiation opportunity. Right. So let me give you an example in my experience. So for me, you know, I was trained and brainwashed and, you know, card carrying member of the cult of scientism. And I'm all about allopathic medicine, specialized in prescribing to pregnant and breastfeeding women. That's how important I think it is. And then I get my first diagnosis. So now it's like, not just a theoretical model. Now I'm going to be the one who's got to be walking to CVS every month, you know, to get a prescription. And that was my rupture of empathy, because I was able to look at what the allopathic system could offer me. And I didn't feel like that was going to work for me. And I didn't feel like anybody gave a shit really, including, you know, the doctor who diagnosed it, who's a lovely woman, you know, on a routine physical, you know, this autoimmune condition that I was diagnosed with in 2010. And I felt really on my own, right? Like on my own with no help available that would get me to where I wanted to go at the time, which was back to normal, right? So we have this regressive impulse, which is like, this sucks, you know, nobody's here to help me. I just want my life to go back to normal. And there is sometimes a sense of, wait a minute, like, I thought you were here for me kind of energy. If you look at how we all developed in our, you know, psychoemotional processes, that is a very adolescent moment. It's like, you know what, fuck you, you know, mom and dad, okay, like, I'm going to do this by myself. And that energy grows your spine. That energy leads you to self-driven, independent, initiatory conditions where you can learn what you're capable of. Now, in a healthy, you know, upbringing, your dad is the one who's like, you got this, let's go. You know, your dad in that moment is the one who offers, you know, what's called eustress, like EU stress. It's a beneficial, healthy kind of stress that pushes you out of your former identity, right? Your dad is the one who brings you into the woods and says you're going to survive here for three days, you know, best of luck, right? He holds the vision of what's possible for you so you don't shrink down into your Peter Pan, you know, life living, you know, in boyhood or girlhood for the rest of time. And this is what I think I did for my patients in private practice. I held the father archetype. Also, that was easy for me because I have a very developed masculine and, you know, largely through, you know, my defensive structure, but regardless, probably also through, you know, past lives and whatever else. And when someone holds that benevolent expectation for you, ideally it's a mentor or an elder, you know, could be a healer or could be a friend, could be an uncle. And it'd be great if it was your pops, you know? But when they hold that energy for you, then you can begin to learn that you can handle shit that you never thought you could. And at its most extreme, you visit with death and you learn that you can live without fear of it any longer because the feeling of I'm about to die, I want to die, I should die is a signature for one's initiation to themselves, right? So that no phase is when you go off into the wilderness, right? When you say, which I did, fuck you to the system, I'm going to heal myself. And I found the way to do that, right? Which involved the reclamation of choice and personal responsibility. So I said, I have choices here. I don't have to take Synthroid for the rest of my life. I'm going to figure out something that's going to work for me. I'm going to take responsibility for my health, which was totally novel to me, right? Because I'd only ever been entrained around who's going to fix this for me, right? Projecting that mommy and daddy onto the system. But I knew that the system couldn't do that. Now, most of my patients had a rupture of empathy with the system. They were good patients taking their meds, end up in their mid thirties or forties on five meds when they started out with a breakup in high school. And they were prescribed Zoloft. And the meds are quote unquote, not working anymore. They're having side effects and nobody's got any answers for them. That's how they found themselves on my wait list, right? That's how they found themselves having conversations with me about, okay, I'm at the end of the rope of what allopathy has to offer. Where's the escape hatch, right? I'm ready to go on this journey. And so growing that, what I call the masculine container requires that you begin to activate your gifts and talents around commitment, follow-through, integrity of word, organization and competence, right? You begin to learn how to respect yourself. Like you actually give a shit about yourself. You learn how to self-validate and source that from within. And through that process, we grow a sense of safety in our systems, right? So I have an online program called Vital Mind Reset. That's the protocol I use to heal myself and in my patient practice. That's what this does, right? Like the program, which of course I only realized years later is this initiation of the masculine. It's a very go big or go home, like no bullshit, 44 days. And it's all about lifestyle choices, right? So when you decide I have the willpower, you activate that hara, right? And you say, I have what it takes to do this for myself and I care enough and the stakes are high enough. And you follow through on that. You send a signal of safety to your system that is the maturation of your inner masculine, not to completion, but it's the beginning of that stage. Now, what can happen if you rest for too long in that space, right? Of like strong commitments, rigid boundaries, right? This is like the moment and it's all holofractal, right? This is the same trajectory in our relationships, right? So let's say you realize you're in like a dysfunctional relationship. You wake up to that awareness and you're like, whoa, you know, I'm out. I'm going to block this guy, you know, never going to interact with him again. There is a stage where those kinds of boundaries for most of us are actually essential. But if you don't mature those boundaries, if you don't get to a place where you don't need the rule book anymore, but instead you know how to feel in your system, is this a yes or a no for me? What if it was a yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then on a Tuesday, it's a no. Am I cool with that? Or do I need to derive my sense of identity from consistency? Again, there's a time and a place for that. I think it's at the beginning of the journey, right? When I look at people who are trying all the health modalities, all the spiritual things, but they don't know basic, you know, self-care and how to like go big or go home with that, right? Show themselves that they have that level of will. It's like such a harder path, right? Because your spine is not in place for this like open heart, right? To radiate to the world. So you set that container and then there's a time to begin to focus on like maturing it so that you can run energies through your system that become actually the sort of navigational system, right? So I'm going to feel in my body whether something is right for me or not. I'm not going to defer to the sort of preexisting framework. And that actually is something that I've only experienced in the past couple of years. So I was always super rigid, not always. I was for the past decade, very rigid about food, right? Like travel all over the world and I would like never eat, you know, not organic corn, like soy or whatever. And I would never eat gluten or dairy. I mean, for almost 15 years, that's been the case for me. And I kind of like found a way to like not be uptight and annoying about it. And I just kept those really hard, hard, hard, hard lines. I've kept very hard lines about pharmaceuticals, about my belief system, about health, about what I think marriage is about. And I think, you know, so many different topics. It's like Kelly doesn't do that, right? Kelly doesn't do that. And this is where Kelly's mastery lies. And as our journeys would have it, there are, when you're in that rejection energy, you attract opportunities to interact with that which you reject, right? And there's a time and a moment and an opportunity that's personal to each of us where you have the conditions set to resolve that rejection energy. And I call it the erotic caress of the enemy, because especially in the activism world, I mean, this was like the first place for me to begin to mature this. When you are so obsessed as I was for 10 years with what the enemy is doing wrong and your role in saving others from what that enemy could do to harm them, you live your whole life obsessed with that which you reject. It's a very erotic dynamic, right? Whether it's a system, an industry, an individual, right? I mean, this is how the political dichotomy is set up. You become totally enraptured with what you think needs to be eliminated or changed in order for you to feel okay in the world. It is not sovereign. It is not adult, right? When we get to the point as a no, you know, where we can non-referentially, non-oppositionally decide what we want in this life, right? What is it that all the health freedom activists actually want? Most of them could never even describe what is the world they want to live in, right? And maybe there's a little lip service to intentional communities and growing our own food and kids dancing around a fire, whatever. But the truth is most of us don't have the capacity to hold pleasure in our bodies. We don't have the capacity to even enjoy what it is that we want when we get it. We become habituated and this is where Carolyn Elliott, actually her name is Carolyn Lovewell now, her work on Existential Kink for me was a total game changer. You know, she talks about our patterns of struggle and how they're actually erotic for us. It actually feels arousing in our bodies to re-enter, you know, financial scarcity patterns, to be in abusive romantic relationships, to revisit with that same old tired story of, you know, nobody's here for me, no fair, this sucks. That it's not just what I used to think, which is like, oh, it meets our needs, right? Because I would see these women who were patients, chronic patients, and I would see that it was sometimes difficult for them to move into the space of emancipation from the medical system. Like once they were at their final appointments with me, there was like sometimes almost a regression into like health dramas and how it is that we love the devil we know, right? And she really brings it to another level by saying like, this is actually how we access our eros, it's how we access our vital force because we don't know how to do it electively, consciously, intentionally. And so, you know, at that moment of opportunity, there is the second part of the journey, which is the yes. It's finding your yes, learning how to relate to desire from an intentional place, growing your capacity to feel pleasurable sensations, and unlocking creativity through your process, through your body. This can only happen when your masculine is mature enough to be able to attune to you, right? So if I have a rigid masculine that is gatekeeping my process, that rigid masculine might make decisions based on like old definitions of safety, right? Kelly, don't use the curse word. Kelly, stay in your lane. That's important. Don't do that, right? So this is almost like, you know, the abusive dude, right? The sort of like, sort of the kind of guy who's like, you know, the adolescent guy energy, who's like, you know, all show and really just there with his like, you know, with his muscles and his performative masculine energy. How do we mature that into an attuned masculine energy within? And obviously I'm speaking as a woman. However, you tell me how applicable this is to men, because I think the journey is similar, you know, in ways for both of us to make contact with the inner animus and anima. But anyway, how do we get to a place where that inner masculine is so interested in our impulses that he prioritizes, honors, and creates the conditions for those impulses, whether it's that I have to pee, okay, I'm hungry or thirsty, or whether it's that I just got this really wild and kind of audacious idea about what I, you know, what video I should make in post, or what kind of book I want to write, or like where I want to take my kids on vacation, right? Wherever these little impulses begin to spark, that inner masculine is attuned, interested, and begins to decision make with informed and wise action. That's a flexible system, right? That's a system that knows how to move vital force with sophistication. And I think that, you know, moving through these initiatory stages, first initiating the masculine, then initiating the feminine, is how we come to this place of wholeness that was the whole journey we came here to experience. And the initiation of the feminine for me has involved shame alchemy. It's involved moving into the space that I thought would destroy me from a place of authentic personal expression, right? So getting to this place where something is just moving through me, right? Like I just like found myself at a pole dance class, right? Like what's even happening here, but I want to be here. And I'm so lit up by this. And these women are so inspiring to me. There's something here. And then, look, I can do this thing. And, you know, I can create a little video where I put it, you know, I edit it and I put it to music and I practice choreography and I put the outfit on and it feels so exciting. Like my inner girl is just like, finally, I thought you'd never come for me, you know? And I share it and it's just like a tsunami of hate, okay? And there's like a little sort of like naive part of me that was like, oh, okay. I knew this was a little out of character, but I didn't know I'd be put up on the stake, you know? And what do I do with that? Okay. And that's what I help women with and I help myself with is how do you turn towards the shame of rejection, the shame of oops, I showed too much of myself, the shame of I'm not a perfect woman, I'm not womaning right, but this is sort of what I want to be doing. And through that shame portal, meet the dimension of yourself that you would otherwise spend the rest of your fucking life projecting onto other women who are in judgment of you. In that sister-woundology of separation from a community culture and an energy field of women who can offer you otherwise belonging and you can offer that to them, right? I like to say that as women, we hold out a hand in the dark. We know how to walk in the dark as women, but without those hands to touch and to reach for that are reaching back, the journey is not what it was meant to be. And so that's really so much of my passion is really seeing these moments where we small ourselves as women into these very hollow diminished versions of our lives that end up feeling like we're living behind a glass wall, that we're in this prison of our own making. And the initiation through the intensity of shame is something that really you're not capable of until your system is healed and integrated enough, until you've sent that signal of safety so that you can hold the energy of shame. It's the most expensive, intense currency of sensation that I think exists. It's the death impulse, right? It's that strong that most of the time we'd rather die than experience it. And if you even just like invoke it in your system just for like a microsecond, it feels like this curl, this involution, like this sense of like, no, I don't exist. I don't want to exist. And it's so powerful and you can get good at holding it. You can get good at feeling it. And it can just pass through you in like seconds because you know what's on the other side is the delight. It's almost like this Kali-esque like cackle of like, yeah, I got this, you know? And I know how to alchemize this shit and I'm going to do it forever because that's what I came here for, right? I'm going to pick all these little pieces of myself that are trapped behind that shame wall and they're going to spin gold out of that shit, you know? So it becomes a play. And that initiated feminine is, it just confers with that strong, fine, masculine, this delight, you know? This delight around the human experience that is not conditional and it is not contingent upon shit going your way at all because you know that that's where your power lies is that bring it, bring it, you know? And I'll turn it into play. I'll turn it into creativity. I'll turn it into an experience of turn on for other women or other people. And I can't wait to see, you know, God's got in store for me today, kind of a thing. [Speaker 3] (34:09 - 37:31) I love it. There's so much to talk about there. I love how you articulate words. I love how you communicate. I mean, so deep, so much respect. You know, you bring up wholeness and, you know, we mentioned it earlier, you know, a lot of spiritual community, they think enlightenment is a certain thing. And I had a, you know, I had a teacher. I think I brought him up before. He taught me a lot about parts work. And he was asked about enlightenment. And he thought enlightenment was to be the ability to navigate opposites within yourself. And, you know, it landed for me deeply because, you know, wholeness is where it's at. That's where the juice lies, you know, to be able to accept these parts of you and to go out and experiment like life is an experiment. You're not going to experience the shame unless you put yourself out there and try things that you've never done before. So you have to have the experiment, the experience, you get feedback from your environment, and then you go, oh, that's interesting. You know, I think back to, you know, however many years ago, when I sent my first post on Facebook, like talking about vaccines, and it was like, whoa, all these people coming at me. And then like, I had this feeling inside like, oh, did I do something wrong? Am I wrong? Like, what's up? And then over time, you build that capacity and you build that capacity and you build that inner strength. And it is that dance between those opposites that I think an individual needs to be able to navigate. And this is where I think the somatic work, obviously, you know, a body worker and nervous system is the foundation of a lot of my work. So how do you build that capacity within your nervous system to experience this pleasure, to experience the shame, to be able to hold it without having to turn to the things that we turn to, to self-soothe so we don't experience the things that we're actually experiencing? And I think that's a huge piece of the puzzle and the different ways you can go about doing it, whether it's through dance, whether it's through, you know, body work, whatever you can do to tap into the wisdom and the depth of this life force and to be able to hold it is imperative in my opinion. And I think that's why it's really nice to see that more people are talking about this stuff or even using the word soma or somatic or body energy, you know, because it used to be, no, no, no, we don't, we don't talk about that. We just operate from a cerebral, a mental place. And that's how I was in my initial part of my journey. But once I brought the body into it and was, you know, laying on the floor, weeping and heaving for 20 minutes, because I just received a certain type of a body work session, I'm like, holy fuck. Like, what is, what is happening right now? And it creates this more holistic picture and understanding of yourself. And, you know, I don't know. I love the dance of life. I don't know what tomorrow holds. I don't know where I'm going to be in 10 years. You know, you know, there's scary elements. There's also exciting elements. And I'm, I'm all, I mean, I'm here for it. You know, I'm here for the truth. I'm not just here for like, okay, well, what's going on in other parts of the world? And what's happening here? Like, fuck, there's a universe within us. And how many people have the desire and the willingness and the psycho-emotional strength to dive to the depths and to hold space for that and to really be okay? I mean, it's hard and so rewarding. Now a short break from the episode. [Speaker 2] (37:32 - 38:59) Friends of the Truth is our membership community. Come and join an amazing community of truth seekers. People have been impacted by this podcast. They've decided to come connect, meet awesome like-minded individuals, people who graduated from our main program, Rise Above the Herd. We're doing six calls a month, nervous system shoot-ups, community calls, guest expert calls from previous guests of this podcast, live teachings with guests, all Rath graduates and members. Just a really, really awesome space to come connect, get real, get vulnerable, hang out, and just be surrounded by people who are going to empower you and inspire you to live your most authentic life. So if that sounds good to you, friendsofthetruth.co is the place to learn more about it and give it a try there. Back to the episode. Also, just to like treat absolutely every single thing in your life as your medicine. You know, there's nothing to miss out on in that. There's no scarcity in that. There's no lack in that when you recognize that literally everything that's happening to me is really on some level happening for me, if only I can attune to alchemize it. And I love what you said before about, you know, enlightenment, because even from like a physics standpoint, I believe this is correct, but like when a particle and an antiparticle collide, that gives birth to light, literally. So the tension of opposites literally is enlightenment, even from a physical standpoint as well on that level. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (39:00 - 44:41) Totally. And I was just going to add too, you know, you were talking about that moment of initiation, right, in the activism realm where you no longer can source validation through merger, right, where you recognize like, oh, that oneness, you know, the womb that I was in where I was conforming and I was complying and I was obedient. And that's where I got this sense of I'm a good boy and I'm okay and I'm doing the right thing. You know, we have our moments where that's not reflected and we care and it matters and it hurts and it's scary because that rejection, obviously, you know, as human mammals, right, like that rejection is hardwired into us as being existential, right? When you're rejected, you know, as a neonate, as an infant, that's death. And so this is not a matter of just social acceptance, like it's some higher, you know, realm of fulfillment. Like this is equated to our existential security. And so, you know, how do you source validation from within so that you can experience the oneness again through complementarity, through that yin-yang, right? You're not just going to be swimming in the white as a white dot. No, you're recognizing that it is the swirl. It's not only, you know, the black and white swirling together, but they each got a dot in there, right? And they're organized. The energies are organized. And that's where the power lies, right? It's not a gray, brown, you know, blob. It's organized into polarities. And that's where I've become so interested in really getting clear on what our lanes are that we're occupying. And not because you got to be black and white in your thinking and rigid about shit, but because you want to be intentional with the energy that you're inhabiting, right? And so, you know, one of the teachers who's really influenced me when it comes to this for women is Kazia Urbaniak. She is a world-famous dominatrix and Taoist nun. And she wrote a book called Unbound and teaches women how to get their energies organized around dominant or submissive dynamics and how to learn how to ask for what we want and to stop residing in what she calls the smoosh, right? The smoosh is like when I'm a know-it-all, kind of like in my bitch, but then I'm also sort of like backing off a bit because I don't want you to think I'm a bitch. So I'm also kind of like softening a little bit. And I'm in this sort of like, it'd be really great if you could like pick up the kids for once, okay? You know, kind of is like, I'm like a little in my dominant, but then a little bit also asking, you know, and it's like a smooshy mess. And, you know, a man's system, because she teaches a lot of like man-woman relating, is wired to be attuned to a woman's energy, right? So when I speak to a man and he's like triggered and confused or like dismissive or whatever, it's possible that my energy was not properly organized to induce in him dominant energy or to induce in him submissive energy, right? That I have this capacity to organize myself to get the energetic result that I'm seeking. And this is a lot of the unlearning that I think women have on deck for them. Another speaker and writer I really like is Laura Doyle. She wrote a book called Surrendered Wife and Empowered Wife. And she basically teaches women how to be good wives. What? Right? Like, what is that? That sounds like the most anti-feminist thing a woman could possibly do. And what is this, like 1950 or something, right? However, if you get married, if you choose a man, odds are you want certain things from that arrangement as a woman, right? And perhaps what it is that you want is to be with a man that you respect, who is a protector, maybe a provider, who's activated in his dominant energy. Probably you shouldn't have engaged the contract if that's not actually what you want, or you should be super clear on what else it is that you want. But egalitarian dynamics between men and women, the result of so many decades of hard-won feminist entitlement, sounds great on paper, but the lived experience of it is highly problematic. And, you know, David Data would describe it as depolarized, right? There's a spark missing. The magnets are not attracting. And there's an experience that we are having of being like roommate siblings with somebody who we know innately has the capacity to enliven our life experience and maybe even, you know, bring us to God, right? So this technology, I describe it as like a free energy technology that exists between a man and a woman in sacred union is not available to you, you know, if you are in your messy energetic space of micromanaging, controlling, diminishing, disrespecting your man, and then being disgruntled and bitter that you don't have the experience, you know, that you want of this individual, right? [Speaker 2] (44:41 - 44:47) How do you think most women would respond if their good wife and son sent them to their wife? [Speaker 1] (44:48 - 51:34) Right? Well, the funny thing about how she teaches it is that it was actually shocking and I'm an outcomes girl, right? So I've published case series, case reports, randomized placebo controlled trial. Like I like to see the proof. Okay. And, you know, who knows, maybe that's my scientism training. I don't know what it is, but so I looked at this woman's outcomes and that's what made me a believer. Cause if it was just a theory, I would have been like, okay, that's interesting. And you're in different demographic, you know, she's like a Midwestern Christian woman. And, you know, I don't know how much this would apply to like my, you know, my any girlfriend's lives or whatever. And the proof is in the pudding, right? So I saw her outcomes. And what's interesting about her approach is that the men do nothing. They don't go to coaching. They don't read anything. They don't get any help. They don't go to ayahuasca ceremonies. They don't do a damn thing. Okay. They keep being their asshole selves until the day that somehow they become the man that these women, you know, that that woman married. What changed? What changed is her. She did the work and the work was not some deep spiritual trauma informed inventory of like what her inner child has to say. No, it's behavioral. And it's a commitment to taking these steps to actually resolve the blocks to intimacy. Right? So like, for example, what a woman might commit to doing who is into this kind of work is no longer advising her man on how he should live his life. And this is a tough one because I think I am like so many women who actually feel quite validated, right? So our inner masculine is validated. When men come and ask me for my opinion on what they should do in their lives or what they should do about a certain situation, it's almost irresistible not to give your opinion as a woman, let alone a wife, right? And what she recommends is that if your man is entrained in his like mommy son stuff, which most men are, most men were raised by controlling shadow mommies, energetically castrated, and then they find themselves in relationships, really unsure how to navigate, like grab their own balls and live their life because they don't want to be punished by the woman who is always judging and scrutinizing. Okay? So what you do as a woman in this situation with your man who's never heard of this work, who's never read the book, okay, is you say whatever you think. Honey, do you think I should paint the garage on Wednesday or should I paint it on Friday? What do you think I should say to like mark my coworker, right? You know, when should we go to Turks and Caicos with the kids? You don't give your opinion, even though women in our defensive structures are so good at this, right? We have become so competent, so capable that in some cases, because of the PSYOP that's been run on men, we can, and us, but at this stage, that's where I'm focused, we can run circles of competence around any man in the room. We know how to get shit done. We know how to think clearly. We know how to solve problems and we're really good at it. Okay? And you're just going to lay that on the altar of your sacred union and you are going to relinquish all of those skills, right? All of those gifts, and you're not going to engage them. So when he asks you to solve a problem, you're just going to say whatever you think. That's a great question. You're not going to take the bait and you're going to reflect to him that he has got what it takes. He can solve this. That's all you're there for, right? So that's just an example of the unlearning that's required. And when a woman makes that decision, apparently that's all it takes. I have introduced this work to several married women in my life, and I now have in-person testimonials, right? In my life, watching, getting messages from my girlfriends being like, Kelly, this has changed the game in one week, right? These kinds of principles. So that feels empowering to me, right? That feels like, oh, as women, we have a lot of control over what's going on, a lot. In fact, we can change a whole relationship without couple therapy, right? That's extraordinary. That's a huge relief. And so, yeah, I've become really passionate about what is possible when, as women, we get into our lanes and we embrace. I have another teacher, Omar Pani, who teaches. We embrace the fact that we actually want to submit to a dominant, capable, trustworthy, safe man. That's actually what we want, right? We don't want to be buddy-buddy partners. We don't want equality. We don't want the things. And I'm speaking in relationship, although it's blurry, right? It's blurry when it comes to our careers and our work-life balance, which is a hilarious concept. It's blurry when it comes to parenting, right? How is it that we can come into comportment in relationship, but also in dynamics, right? So now I look through the world and I'm always assessing, am I in my dom right now or am I in my sub? What is the orientation? How am I going to ask for what I want? What is the orientation that serves my desires and needs best? I have an awareness of how I speak, right? If I'm speaking from an instructive place of knowing exactly what needs to happen and executing that command, or am I speaking from an invitational place where I give the person standing in front of me a really important role in the fulfillment of a little dream I have, right? A little desire that's like waking up inside of me. And this to me has changed my life. It's changed my life and it's resolved layers of victimhood that were still lurking even after I reclaimed my health and I began to see my role as an activist in perpetuating the same consciousness that I was purporting to want to resolve. This is like taking it home for me. It's understanding how you're responsible, how you have choices in your communications about what it is that you want. [Speaker 3] (51:37 - 51:41) Like what... Joel, I saw you about to say something. [Speaker 2] (51:41 - 51:51) Oh, I was just going to pose the question like, do you think it's like a blanket reality that all women in a relationship want the same thing? [Speaker 1] (51:54 - 1:00:02) No, I have no idea. I can only speak from my own experience and to learn from these preexisting testimonials and from people who are in this business, right? So, I am, I think, a master curator. And one thing I'm really good at is synthesizing mass quantities of information into very digestible nuggets, right? Like, I am a huge bibliophile. I read tons and tons of books. I consume programs and teachings and courses, and I manifest contact with teachers. And I have found several important leaders saying the same damn thing, right? Which is that, you know, when we seek romantic union, and obviously I speak as a heterosexual woman knowing from my own experience what it's like to be in relationship to men. However, you know, folks like David Dada who teach about polarity dynamics, this is true for any enlivened dynamic, right? In a same-sex relationship, the same polarity equation is available, right? And that's why I found this is applicable to how I speak to my gardener. It's applicable to how I speak to my father and my brother and my uncle, right? Developing awareness around my desire, which is usually in the submissive realm. It's usually that I want to feel safe, supported, secure, right? That I want help with the manifestation of my fantasies and desires and ideas and impulses. That is a submissive dynamic, right? Relative to the dominant energy that is going to execute, act, strategize, plan, and make it happen, right? But as women, we think we want to sit in the car, in the passenger seat with our man, right? In the submissive seat. And we want to actually just tell him to make that left turn instead of the right. We want to just, you're going a little too fast, right? Big trigger. I mean, it's actually the greatest diagnostic. As a woman in a car with a man, doesn't have to be with your man, right? Because this comes out in an Uber, okay? So if you're a woman in an Uber and your driver is a man, does it arise in you to tell him how to do his job, right? To tell him how to drive. He's navigating, you're paying him to do that. Or you've chosen this man to do that. Literally and figuratively navigate for you. And you're better at it, then why don't you drive your own damn car, right? If you're better at it, then why are you in relationship? Why are you hiring the Uber? Get a rental, right? Kind of a thing. So resolving the ways that we are now interfering with the fulfillment of our desire. And again, I don't know what women want. However, what I do know is that this is a common yearning, okay? I spoke at Weston Price last year to a huge audience. It was like 2,000 people in the room, okay? And somebody asked me about the gender psyop and the whole, what's the deal? The whole pronoun thing. And when I answered the question, I was speaking to how powerful it would be to dismantle the man-woman dyad. How powerful it would be, how actually game-changing it would be for us to forget that it matters whether or not you are in a woman's biology or a man's biology, because those are the two magnets, right, that create the field. And how insidious this agenda is, especially applied to the early burgeoning senses that we have within our bodies as we grow as children, that we are actually in two different gendered bodies, okay? So I'm speaking to that, and I said that my sense is that most women want to be well-handled by a powerful man. And like, you know, this is Weston Price, okay? I'm not like at some sort of like BDSM convention, okay? And literally, this like moan waved across the room. It was undeniable. Everybody felt it. It was like every woman in the room exhaled an existential sigh of relief to have that spoken, that every woman on some level... And again, this is not about lesbianism or heterosexuality, because as women, we live in the world with men, period. That's a fucking fact, okay? And whether you are having sex with men or not, you're still living in the world with them. And I would argue that you're terrified of them. Because as, you know, a big mouth bitch from New Jersey, that is actually what I discovered was that the root of my activism was that I was terrified of the bad daddy, terrified of men in general. And that my compensatory, you know, sort of posture was, you know what? I'm going to destroy you. I'm going to fucking destroy that system. And if I can't, I'm going to shame you, okay? Because that's our power as women, is that we can shame you. And it's worse than death from what I hear, right? For a man to be shamed by a woman and disrespected on the level of reputation, okay? So if I acknowledge as a woman that I am biologically wired to power in the presence of a man, whether I admit that to myself or not, you know, that he could put his hands around my neck and odds are I'm out, okay? If I acknowledge that, then the antidote is that I am protected and served, right? AKA well handled by a trustworthy, strong, competent, dominant man. And I think that if we were to have this in society where the permission field for men was granted again, you know, and this is what, again, one of my teachers Omrapani offers, is that permission field to men to claim their dominance. If that is restored and men are back at the helm where they belong, protecting and serving the women and children of the population, there ain't no agenda that's gonna get, you know, through this sacred geometry of human society, right? And that's why it's been essential to emasculate and confuse men. It's been an essential part of what's gone down, even in the past couple of years, to really run this PSYOP where women are convinced that what we want are men cowering and apologizing to us and men are confused as hell about whether to be feeling their feelings, you know, or getting on a bended knee. It's so like, how is it that we restore this? I don't know. I can only speak as a woman to women who are interested in new ways of getting what we want that involve a surprising twist, right? The first step of which is to acknowledge what it is that we want. And that was more readily available, right, in that conference room than I anticipated because it was like a collective acknowledgement, a collective experience of like, wow, finally somebody's said it, you know? [Speaker 3] (1:00:02 - 1:00:26) Yeah. Yeah. I think also real quickly is that it doesn't mean that the woman has to be in this state all the time, you know, 24-7. It's just in a certain interpersonal dynamic that allows you to get your needs met in a better way. So I think that sometimes people want to, they hear something and they go, oh my God, you're telling me to be this 24-7? And I don't think that's what you're saying. Am I correct? [Speaker 1] (1:00:27 - 1:04:33) Well, I'm not telling anyone anything because nobody likes to be told, you know, how to do shit. I just find this delightful, you know, and anybody who's listening who does, there are resources and like a pretty simple path to experimenting with this. And I would say, okay, so there's some people who talk about this literally just in the bedroom. That's a lot of what BDSM is about and it can be, I mean, I wrote a whole ebook about how, you know, that may be the practice that is here to resolve our deep traumas, right? And you can do that with a partner and it's not what, you know, the DSM-5 might have you think that like kink is some sort of paraphilia. Okay. But this is a technology for the integration of trauma that is actually deeply fulfilling and pleasurable. Okay. It could just live there, right? It could just live in your romantic relationship. But what I'm offering is the possibility that as a woman, this is relevant to every interaction that you have with men. It's relevant right now as I speak to both of you. Okay. Which requires that, you know, if you're a woman and you're interacting with a man, okay, it requires that binary life. And this is what I bring to every interaction that I have with every man all day, every day. Okay. Is an awareness that I have an opportunity and again, my teacher Omrapani calls it to make every man bigger. I have an opportunity to show appreciation, to show respect authentically, not like blowing smoke up someone's ass, right? But I have an opportunity, you know, if somebody helps, if a man helps me lift something, you know, in the airplane or whatever, that I can, you know, look at him and deeply communicate my appreciation for that, right? Or that I can take an opportunity to show somebody respect that I might have otherwise been too self-absorbed to extend. And so it's relevant as a woman navigating the world that also houses men in it and to bring a commitment to like no longer speak ill of men. This is a commiseration connection that has been, you know, pretty prominent for a long time for women. Like we get together and we should talk men, that's what we do. Whether it's like, you know, that shitty ex or like, you know, can you believe this dick or that douchebag or whatever, and or we just say things that are so commonplace now, like, oh, there's no good men out there. Oh God, men suck, you know? And this kind of misandriny, is that how you say it? Yeah, I think so. Anyway, however you pronounce the opposite of misogyny, it's so covert. It's like, you know, misogyny can land you canceled at best and in jail at worst. But like, you know, man-hating is something that's fetishized for women and it's how we find safety together. But we can find safety in a lot of other ways as women, you know, we can cook and dance and laugh and sing and play and celebrate. And we don't have to go into the victim consciousness realm to source our safety anymore. Plus it's not even the real thing anyway. So these kinds of commitments, they actually are your whole life, right? It's like, this is actually how I'm going to comport myself as a woman to men in the world. And it's a practice, trust me, like I slip in and out of it for sure. However, I don't think it's necessarily something that you can just relegate to like one dynamic or one setting and reap the same rewards, which are, oh, I live in a world of competent men who are worthy of respect and appreciation. That's a safer world for me to live in, period. [Speaker 3] (1:04:34 - 1:04:44) Yeah. I mean, I agree. I mean, being respected and appreciated is like, is like, I don't know, it lifts, fills me with light. It's nourishing. [Speaker 2] (1:04:45 - 1:04:45) It's nourishing. [Speaker 3] (1:04:45 - 1:05:02) It's so nourishing. And when my wife speaks to me in a way like you're describing, I'm like, oh my God, like I'm ready to take on the fucking world. Yep. But when it's like, when I feel disrespected or trying to be controlled, it's like, it's such a, you know. [Speaker 1] (1:05:03 - 1:06:58) Yeah. Then you're in the war of the sexes. And that is, you know, it's arguably the controversy that will be our downfall if we don't find a way to come into complementarity, to come into devotional service and not conditionally, right? Because some of us have been, especially in the new age times we're in, like in this very conditional offering of love and devotion to our partners. And then like the moment there's a scary trigger or the moment there's a conflict or disagreement, you know, we have no idea how to comport ourselves into organized complementarity and relationships end and marriages end. And, you know, as somebody who has the credentials of two divorces on my resume, I have come into deep understanding and appreciation for what the covenant of marriage could be. And I'm not talking legally, hopefully that's obvious, you know, but, you know, in terms of the contract and in terms of what becomes possible when you close all the doors and you commit yourself to the cultivation of that free energy between you, and you understand that anything that is asked of you that is uncomfortable, that is at odds with your expectation is in service of your reconnection to God, right? Like that marriage could be that requires that you choose from a very different place than I think many of us have chosen partners, right? And that you prioritize, right? So like in my next marriage, I will choose a man whom I thoroughly and completely respect. That is literally the only criteria. [Speaker 2] (1:07:00 - 1:07:01) And what if that respect is breached? [Speaker 1] (1:07:04 - 1:09:24) It was there. If it was there, and most women, when you look back at the relationships that didn't work out and you ask yourself deeply, honestly, transparently, did you totally and thoroughly respect that man from the beginning? The answer would be no. Okay. And this is like a highly personal, like almost like ephemeral thing. It's like, it's just a feeling you get in your body of like, yes, I want to submit to you. I will close my eyes and let you walk me through the world, right? If that exists at some point of contact, then it can always be restored and it can always be reclaimed. But if it didn't exist from the inception, probably you were choosing from a trauma space so that you could recapitulate the experience of the fallen father, right? Or the shadow mommy or whatever as a man. And that's, we do that. We do that. It's designed that way, right? Like some of the most erotic connections we have are with people who remind us of the pain and suffering of our initial betrayal, abandonment, and rejection. The initial experiences we had of conditional love, and that's fine. It's fine until you're ready to choose from a different place and you're ready to practice what it is to come into sacred polarity and union. And I don't know that there are many people modeling this yet, I mean, I'm certainly not. I'm teaching from no credentials other than a deep knowing that this is possible. And it is the activism of our time right now. Like this is it, like at least for me and those around me, right? Like that the protests and the Twitter wars and the books even, and the sort of like, don't you see how right we are about how wronged we've been is literally participating in the loose ritual, right? And so how do you surpass that, transcend that, like, again, offer that like Cali cackle to it. It's to really master the realm of marriage and sacred union. [Speaker 2] (1:09:25 - 1:09:51) I mean, I totally hear you and your passion is inspiring in this manner. So I think what you're hinting at is that through adopting these behavioral changes and like these deep childhood wounds, these father wounds, mother wounds, et cetera, like can come up to be healed simply through committing to altering the way we interact with the other side. [Speaker 1] (1:09:53 - 1:13:10) Yes. And I'm sure you both would agree that I think this work becomes available to us so much more readily and easily when you have, you know, a reclamation of your own neuroception, right? When you have a somatic stability within you that allows you to perceive what is going on in front of you with minimal to no projection, okay? And that is not like, that's why I'm as passionate about my program and somatic work and embodiment work that confers that sense of safety because like, how else do you see the person in front of you clearly if you're still projecting the bad daddy or the bad mommy, right? And you're doing that because that's how your system is wired to survive. It's like, you know, the example of like, you know, if I'm in a dimly lit bedroom and I see, you know, a perpetrator, there's all sorts of shit that's gonna get kicked in my system. There's decisions I'm gonna make, there's choices I'm gonna make, there's narration I'm gonna offer the situation like, oh my God, what's happening, you know? But if it's just a pile of laundry and I can see that that's actually what's going on, right? And I'm not clouded by my fearful projections, then I actually can chill out and decide whether I wanna wash the laundry or not, right? So it's like a totally different set of decisions and choices that become available when you can perceive with sober eyes. So I do think that it's nearly impossible, which is why we have so many folks in the new age spiritual communities who take the bait of so many, you know, psy-ops, right? Who are shilling for, you know, the agenda or whatever while they're talking about like spiritual things or whatever, because there is an order of operations like, first you gotta get your system, you know, quiet so that you can actually start to perceive more accurately so that you can choose a partner who's not just a projection screen so that you can really soberly assess compatibility, you know? And one of my girlfriends is dating a new guy, like one of the first things I'll say after I hear story number three or four of like how disappointed they are or frustrated or how they want him to do something differently is like, in your body, do you really feel like this man can give you what you need? If the answer is no, then I unsubscribe from any further complaints or stories about this dude. I literally have done that to several women in my life, like I am opting out, okay? I'm not participating in this field, first of all, because it's too destabilizing for me, doesn't feel good to me to be in that field, but then also because it's just a reminder that we can assess compatibility and then when you're not fighting with who somebody is, who they've shown themselves to be to you, you can honor that person, respect that person, let them be who the hell they are and then say, you know, it's not gonna work for me. And you don't need that person to be bad and wrong, you don't need to re-engage victim consciousness in order to be in your power. [Speaker 2] (1:13:12 - 1:13:58) Yeah, I totally hear you. I know we're time sensitive and we're on the brink of broaching that. I'll go one more question if you don't mind this come up for me. Like in this whole polarity coaching world and particularly through social media, like there's some certain voices that might be proclaiming that, you know, men have no feminine parts and women have no masculine parts and we should just be who we are biologically and there's not no internal alchemy to do there. What do you have to say to that? And also, how does what you're teaching here, I guess, through this podcast, how does that dynamic work within an individual on an animus level? How does dominant submissive work within the woman and within the man and not necessarily purely within the relationship dynamic? [Speaker 1] (1:14:00 - 1:20:22) Yeah, so I've come to really believe that gendered work must be done within its own gender, right? So like that women do this work with women and men do this work with men. I actually am not a big believer that couples do this work best together just from what I've seen and I know there's many wonderful people out there who teach and hold space for that. Maybe that's like an advanced practice or something, you know, but there's a lot for us to sort out in the safety of our own gendered folks, okay? You know, like, so there is healing. You know, I have an in-person event coming up in Miami called Audacious Embodiment in November and I am so excited about this event because I know what is possible when women come together. It is literal fucking magic, okay? And having never, you know, been in such a space, I've also heard what's possible, you know, when men come together, right? What can unfold in that space? This is where we begin to orient towards our inner polarity without the confusion of the whole of fractal, like all the other polarities around us, right? First, you know, like you were saying the universe within, right? Like first orient towards yourself and that's where I've come to see these like stages of maturation, you know? My feminine cannot find expression and cannot tap into inspiration unless I've got me. Okay? Unless like I can hold myself, you know, when people judge me or, you know, I can just get that feeling like, oh, did I do it wrong? Right? That's my responsibility to offer myself, you know, what my teacher Omrapani calls containment and others do too. But, you know, how do I offer myself containment? One of the simple ways that I can do that on the daily is to, I call it enter through the upset, to feel upset, okay? It doesn't have to be more complicated than that, okay? To feel a little energy of I don't like this and stop whatever I'm doing and create the conditions of a container for like literally 30 to 90 seconds. And to prioritize that, to honor the sensations as being relevant and important enough to welcome them in, right? That's my masculine creating those conditions and organizing the actions around that. And sometimes he shows up and sometimes he's like, I don't know, you know, smoking a joint in the corner. Like, I don't know. So when he shows up though, I get a triggering email. I feel ashamed or angry or embarrassed. And he says, I got you, baby. I got you, baby. Lean into me. Tell me what you're feeling, what's going on. And then that looks like, okay, setting a timer, stopping what I'm doing, setting a timer for 60 seconds or 90 seconds and allowing the actual sensations to just do their thing. Without a story, this is not shadow work and journaling, okay? It's not inner child dialoguing. This to me is the hardest work. It sounds so simple, but it's actually the hardest. To prioritize it, to create the conditions and execute on it. The attention is the masculine gift, right? So I am offering my attention, my masculine to the sensations, right? Which are my feminine energy, the sensations moving in my body. And they might start like a clench in my chest and then like flutter out and up through my neck. And maybe then it'll evolve into like a knot in my stomach and that will diffuse, right? And it's just, I'm tracking it. I'm just, and this is basic somatic experiencing. I'm just tracking it and being present to it, attending to it. Unless you've initiated your masculine, that shit is very, very hard, okay? And even when you have, it's challenging. And I think that's how you begin to restore the connection between your inner polarities because now your body can understand that your consciousness is a co-present dimension of you, right? Like your body is like, oh, you actually care. You're actually here. Maybe I can actually trust you to meet me where it is that I am. So these little polarity practices that we can do super simply within ourselves are how I think we begin to develop the art of self-relating. And I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that. I mean, there's like all sorts of ways to honor your inner masculine, honor your inner feminine. But I think if you commit to self-containment as a man or a woman, right? Which is I'm responsible for how I feel, I'm responsible for caring how I feel, and I'm responsible for learning how to be with what I feel. And you do that in a greater context of support from your women as a woman or your men as a man. And when we come together in society, it's like the war won't even be relevant anymore, you know? And then whatever retreats we go on or couples work we do will be from an intention to find God through each other. And that's where probably my favorite teacher of all time deep bow is to David Data because I think he's the OG and he's the only one I want to listen to on that subject pretty much. [Speaker 2] (1:20:24 - 1:20:38) Kelly, thank you so much. This has been so empowering. I think it'll be very enlightening for lots of our listeners. I mean, you're an absolute legend in this field. It's an honor to host you every time. And yeah, you're awesome. [Speaker 3] (1:20:39 - 1:20:52) I feel the same, much respect. I'm looking forward to another conversation down the road someday. And can you let everyone know how to find out more about your retreat in November or the event in November and anything else you have going on? [Speaker 1] (1:20:53 - 1:21:15) Yeah, well, first of all, let me say how good it feels to be in the space with both of you, like so receptive and understanding and open to these ideas because there certainly is still a part of me that's like, it's okay. It's okay that I think this is true. And so it just feels good. [Speaker 2] (1:21:15 - 1:21:19) Well, we'll call this episode how to be a good wife and we'll see how people respond to that. [Speaker 1] (1:21:19 - 1:21:22) Let's see what happens. They're like, that bitch does not know. [Speaker 3] (1:21:24 - 1:21:41) No, I totally appreciate it. I mean, David Data, I've read that one book, The Way of the Spirit of Man, like four times. My first time was like 20 years ago, I think. Every time I read it, it was at the end of a relationship. I was like, maybe I need to learn something more. What's going on? But yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:21:41 - 1:22:42) Humbling, humbling. Yes, absolutely. So thank you. And yeah, so most of this kind of talk and exploration that I've been doing these days is actually maybe since I saw you last is on my own podcast that I have now called Reclamation Radio. And really just, yeah, exploring the trajectory from health reclamation to erotic reclamation and really how similar those journeys can be. And then I am hosting my first in-person event because I think we're in a moment and I know you agree that part of our disruption, right, of whatever's up is to get in person together, right? Like actually in real life person. I mean, I just literally, I took a training for S-Factor. It's like a, I don't know how to describe it. I should know better at this point. [Speaker 3] (1:22:42 - 1:22:48) My wife did S-Factor for like multiple years here in LA. Perfect. And then it got closed during all the bullshit. [Speaker 1] (1:22:48 - 1:24:48) Yes. Yes. So perfect. So, it's like a pull and exotic movement-based feminine healing practice. Anyway, I just did a whole teacher training on a computer. I was like, this is just like beyond ironic. This is like an embodiment practice done on a computer. So I was like, okay, Kelly, it's time to organize, to throw a celebration for women and for yourself and to gather together women who are interested in exploring dimensions of the feminine from the dark to the light and to do that primarily through dance and singing and play. But also as somebody who was like very recently super fucking inhibited, I get why that might feel really scary and like, okay, maybe next time, kind of a thing. And so I've invested a lot in making sure that there are women there who teach breaking through the barriers of creativity and access to this energy and really taking the scariness out of it and holding the shame that can come up. I mean, when I started singing, I used to be on a Zoom with a teacher and literally just like hot tears of shame coming down my face. I didn't even know why. And the same for when I started to do exotic dance and stuff like that. So there's just, there is like probably five years of therapy that I can offer in one weekend. I'm flying in 10 different women who are the women who inspired me, who held out that hand in the dark to me. And I'm just lit up about how disruptive it could be to turn women onto themselves in this way and really expand their permission field so that they can be the kind of women they didn't think they were allowed to be. And that kind of homecoming is, it's just, I don't know, it's extraordinary. So yeah, that's Miami in November. What's the weekend? It's called Audacious Embodiment. And yeah, it's on my website and all the places, but it's here in Miami in November 3rd through 5th. [Speaker 2] (1:24:49 - 1:24:57) Amazing. Sounds incredible. All right, Kelly, we won't keep you any longer. Thank you so much. Everyone else, thank you for listening and we'll see you next time. Take care. [Speaker 1] (1:24:57 - 1:24:57) Thank you. Thank you. [Speaker 2] (1:25:03 - 1:25:08) Somebody set the alarms cause they be too busy snoozing. I'm in a DeLorean fast forward.