Stefanos Sifandos Facing the Wounds That Shape Our Relationships

Speaker A 00:00:02.800 - 00:00:34.920 Stefanos is a trained educator and relationship expert with a background in behavioral science. He is passionate about leading people closer to their highest potential and to each other. Stefanos philosophy merges the best of eastern and western methodologies to promote spiritual balance and empower people in life and love. From trauma release, to navigating the at times murky waters of modern masculinity, to helping women understand the men in their lives, he helps people escape negative patterns and cultivate a positive sense of self. Stes, thank you for being here for the truth, man. Speaker B 00:00:35.640 - 00:00:36.760 I appreciate it. Speaker A 00:00:37.320 - 00:00:53.660 One way we always like to kind of kick off these conversations, especially with first time guests, is we'd like to dig a little bit deeper into your personal hero's journey. What are some of the major rites of passage in your own life and some of those key catalyzing moments that you feel kind of catapulted, you know, this path for yourself? Speaker B 00:00:55.980 - 00:06:02.930 Yeah, I'm not sure how many constructive, healthy rites of passages I. Rites of passage I experienced in my life that were very deliberate and that were very much passed down either from my father, you know, from boyhood to manhood, or from a healthy group of adult men when I was a child moving into adulthood. But there were definitely times that were more tethered to pain and shame and violence and you know, the sense and the actual experience of oppression and so forth that, you know, forced me to grow up and forced me to mature. Unfortunately though, and so many people experience this, I'm not alone in this at all. When we're forced to mature in those ways, if we do grow and if we do continue living, which of course I have and I did often for a very long time, we'll be very unhealthy relationally in the world. Like how we see ourselves, like our low self worth is. Our self worth is low. My self worth was low. And as a result of that, we often compensate for that. So I compensated for that false bravado, behaving in ways that were more egoic, more entitled, more power over from a relational perspective, as opposed to like really being in conversation and connection with people. I felt very alone and therefore felt very scared and therefore, you know, would push intimacy away, but at the same time craved it. And so I was very disoriented and disorganized in my own, you know, attachment and my own relational principles of being in the world, because that's sort of what I experienced growing up. And so those were my rites of passage. Right, there's still rites of passage. They're just not healthy, they're not constructive. And until we undo that or until we revisit that and take ourselves through rites of passage, right? Either ourselves, which is not advised, but allow others to hold us in, that be witnessed, in other words, in our shame, in our guilt, in our anger, in our. All the stuff that we've been running from, which I spent many years running from, decades really, we won't grow out of the pain that we've connected to becoming an adult, right? Like boyhood to manhood. And so we constantly cycle that pain because it feels safer, because it has us yearning for power and control. And my expression of that was, again, some of the things that I've mentioned, but being aggressive, being reactive, not trusting people, pushing intimacy away, sometimes being manipulative, you know, lurking and hiding in the shadows, seeking excessive pleasure, adrenaline, you know, pleasure in the form of food, sex, novelty, variety, either with women or in just life experiences. So lots of adventure and travel and adrenaline dumping, right? And my dopamine pathways were fried because I just needed more and more and more of that. So more pain, more pleasure, right? And so I say all that to really share that. Unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever perspective you want to take, I never really had, like. Like so many cultures across so many millennia where it was possible. Valued rites of passage for men and valued turning points for boys becoming men. I never experienced the deliberate sit down from my father or because he was too busy surviving, right? Not only from his own trauma, but just in the life that he was living, that we were living as a family unit and never had that guidance from adult men in really healthy, sustainable ways. And so that's. That's a sort of insight into my own personal story, which I think just Again, the past 25 years doing this work in the personal transformation space and working with men, very few men experience that. Very few men experience transition from boyhood to manhood in healthy, safe ways. And by the way, you know, when I say one more thing to this, you can have intense passages, rites of passage, that can be really confronting and really scary and even dangerous. And in fact, that's part of the recipe for that. But when it's. When you're left to your own device as a boy, we tend to seek approval and prove. We come from proving energy. So we do things in really extreme, unconscious ways, like steal cars, get into fights, fall into alcoholism or drug abuse, as opposed to our father taking us out. I'll give you an example, right? Taking us out into the forest and saying, I'll see you across that ridge in Three days. Right. As an example. And of course there's preparation for that. I'm being rudimentary in my expression of it, but I think you're getting what I'm saying. So. So we, we lack that as. As boys, in my perspective, in modern day. In our modern day world. And we're missing that. That deep cultural connection that. That boys and men really require in transitioning from boys. Boys to men. Speaker C 00:06:03.570 - 00:06:44.210 Yeah. What was it in you during these experiences? Like, I feel like many of us that go through something like this where we don't have, let's say, the right mentors or teachers. Um, you know, let's say we're overindulging in pleasure, like you said in women. Like, when was like the moment, the aha moment for you? Like, I can't keep going down this path. This isn't leading me to what I ultimately want. Like, what do I need to do in order to change? So I can either, like, reach out for help or find a mentor. Like, what was the, you know, some people will say the dark night for you that prompted you to, you know, take the next step in your evolution, at least at that time. Speaker B 00:06:45.330 - 00:09:20.560 Yeah, a number of different turning points, but the, the catalyst that really turned me around. I was in my very early 30s. And the short story is that I. I got caught cheating in that relationship that I was with. With my partner at the time. And it really just turned me around. Having that mirror reflect that level of honesty was. Was really big for me because I'd been hiding so much, so much of my life and been living in two different, very. Two very different worlds, living in the shadows and then, you know, claiming to live in the light as well. And, you know, rush of memories and trauma came back to me and it was just a turning point where I just made a decision. I said, I have to change. Like, I can't keep living this life irrespective of whether I stay with this woman or I don't. And we didn't stay together, of course we tried probably like about seven or eight months. I really tried sincerely. You know, we saw therapists and coaches, especially myself. Like, I really went deep. It just didn't, you know, for all very, very sound reasons, that didn't work. And that was more than fine and great. Very painful at the time, of course, but that was a big catalyst. And unfortunately it had to come with a very rude awakening for me and, you know, unfortunately for her as well. And I'm very, you know, still very sad about that in terms of, you Know my actions, my behaviors, my unconscious ways of being in the world that were out of integrity, got really out of integrity because I was so bonded and addicted to my own trauma and avoiding my own trauma and being in patterns of power and control. But that, that, that moment really changed the trajectory of my life and I made very clear decisions on that day and the days that followed. I will never go back to being that way again. And I haven't. And, but it's been years and years of really deep exploration. Continued exploration, man. Like, it's not just exploration, but really being with the discomfort of relating unconsciously. You know, like when I'm relating unconsciously to my partner now, my wife or my child and really checking myself, or if I'm showing up in my friendships in immature ways, or I'm living or coming or expressing from patterns of trauma or dysregulation or reactivity and really just choosing to be with those and take responsibility and ownership of, you know, my compulsions, my addictions to my own patterns or to my own protection and to my own sense of needing control and fears and all of that and continuing to come back and put a mirror up and say, yep, that's, that's me. I'm doing that thing. Speaker C 00:09:22.080 - 00:09:25.280 Yeah, speaking, speaking my language for sure, man. Thank you for sharing all that. Speaker B 00:09:26.720 - 00:09:26.920 Yeah. Speaker A 00:09:26.920 - 00:09:37.200 What was, I guess the point where I was like, maybe I do want to kind of delve into this personal transformational space. Like, where was it? Where it's like, oh, maybe, you know, coaching is the calling here. Speaker B 00:09:38.640 - 00:11:36.330 This is, this is the double life I was telling you about. I've been doing this since I was 18. I've been in coaching since I was 18. I, I got what, I mean, my, my university degree, my tertiary qualifications came a little later because I went to university a little later and did it more part time slash full time, but just, you know, really took my time with it. But I, I'd studied other courses, other certificates, you know, hypnosis, nlp, the stack of, you know, somatics, trauma, a stack of other qualifications prior to that. But I'd been in this space since then because I really wanted that. Because every coach, therapist, teacher, healer or whatever will go into this space in the modern world because, you know, to help others that's sincere and genuine, I don't take that away. And to help themselves. And that's what I was doing. And most of us will, will think this. We have this unconscious belief and agreement with ourselves that if we help others, we'll help ourselves. And the Big part of me doing that and going into that such a young age was that. But, you know, I wasn't really addressing it directly, so I couldn't really, you know, quote unquote, save myself or help myself until I addressed it directly. So I'd been doing this for a long time. I'd got into. I was very clear that's just what I wanted to do in the world. I've shared this story before, but when I was very young, you know, watching. I was watching National Geographic, and there was a. There's a segment or something on the United nations, and I thought, wow, like, I could be, you know, secretary. I didn't use these words, but I could lead the United Nations. You know, I could. I could help all these kids and save all these kids and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, now I've come to realize the. I guess the geopolitical function of the United nations isn't what I thought it was. I'll leave it at that. And definitely not. Yeah. And I just witnessed so much suffering in children, like, from across the world, poverty and famine. And I thought, well, I don't want that for anyone. And I. What I was really saying was I don't want to keep growing up in the violent household that I'm growing up in. So how can I help others to feel like I'm helping myself? Speaker A 00:11:36.730 - 00:11:37.130 Yeah. Speaker B 00:11:37.130 - 00:11:37.530 Yeah. Speaker C 00:11:37.930 - 00:11:51.380 Do you think a lot of people that are in, like, the helping professions, like, you know, they just. They overcompensate by the. The good that they're doing for others and aren't really focusing on what really they need to do for themselves? Speaker B 00:11:51.540 - 00:12:17.240 Yes. Nothing more to say to it. Yes. 100. Yeah. And people don't like to admit that because. Because, you know, we're. We or they are doing great and good in the world, and that's. That. That's not being taken away. None of that's being taken away. It's not being tainted, per se. It's just that there are. There are other motives there, and there are other realities and layers of realities that are also simultaneously expl. Occurring. I. E. Not really looking at your. Because you're too busy looking at someone else's. Speaker A 00:12:19.640 - 00:12:20.120 Yeah. Speaker B 00:12:20.840 - 00:12:30.760 And there's no judgment on that, by the way. I mean, I was doing that for years, and even now, sometimes I still do that. Like, I need people in my life say, hey, like, you're doing the thing that you say you don't want to do. Stop doing it. Yeah. Speaker C 00:12:30.760 - 00:13:05.030 I mean, it's. It's. You're just being Matter of fact, like it's a thing. This is what goes on in the world. And it's again, it's like we have many different aspects of self and so those patterns, those elements are going to come forth and those behaviors are going to present themselves. Do we have the capacity to like, notice what the underlying motivation is between of an act or behavior that we're doing? And that's why again, it is good, like you said, to have like men in your life or other people in your life that are going to call you out in your shit and be honest with yourself. I think there's a lot of sugar coating and people pleasing in the world today that we're not getting to the root of what we need to do in order to step up as man, as human beings. Speaker A 00:13:07.120 - 00:13:35.540 Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I want to kind of explore that like what is the real roots of what we need to do? Because you know, what does it really take to transform these ingrained relational patterns? It seems as though today everyone's promising to rewire quick reset, whatever it might be. But like, in my experience, none of this stuff happens overnight. None of this stuff even happens over a two, three year process. Like this is a life's work, you know, of observing oneself and checking reality for feedback. Speaker B 00:13:36.740 - 00:15:00.200 Brother. I'm not sure what you want me to say to that because you just summed it up really well. I mean, I mean, seriously, I mean, I guess I could expand on it, but it's, it's not an overnight process. Resetting and rewiring is a constant and consistent practice because of the world that we just live in. Right. I mean, even if you lived in the world 40,000 years ago, assuming we have an idea of what actually was occurring then. Yeah, you maybe you were living in a, in a fairly dangerous or precarious environment that required reset and regulation on a regular basis in the ways that we knew how back then. Right. Like it's a constant. We are a constant work in progress. And it doesn't mean that we're broken. It means that we're evolving and growing on a constant basis. Therefore we need constant attention. And it is, it is. You're right. I don't think it's a two or three year process. I think there are just levels and foundations that get laid within our own consciousness that help us expand until we get to the next thing that we need to address or that we need to look at. And I don't see that as a bad thing. And I sometimes see us needing space from quote, unquote Doing the work and just integrating that work. And that can look like so many different things. It may look like not, you know, taking six months off, you know, really deep, deep neurological, somatic work and just being, you know, going to the ocean more, going for long walks more. Just changing your routines in terms of how you care for yourself. Speaker A 00:15:00.440 - 00:15:00.920 Yeah. Speaker B 00:15:01.160 - 00:15:16.520 But it is, it's decades. It's. I don't think, you know, like I saw, I saw an interview yesterday. Yesterday, the day before, with a. It was one of those street interviews with an 88 year old man. And one of the things that he shared was like, I really, I really regret. And he looked, he looked great. Speaker A 00:15:16.520 - 00:15:18.120 I mean, look, Robin. You watch this? Speaker B 00:15:18.120 - 00:15:18.520 Yeah. Speaker C 00:15:18.520 - 00:15:19.640 Robin is that one. Speaker B 00:15:20.010 - 00:15:20.410 Which one? Speaker C 00:15:20.650 - 00:15:21.770 Robin? Was it. Speaker B 00:15:21.770 - 00:15:22.970 Was it Robin? Yeah. Speaker C 00:15:24.410 - 00:15:24.730 Yeah. Speaker B 00:15:24.730 - 00:16:20.870 It's awesome. What are the chances? So he was just sitting on the chair and Robin was talking about, you know, how. How he wished he had taken a chance on that woman. Right. Like in terms of marrying her and being ready and being more direct and decisive. And at 88, you can call it a regret. Maybe not, but it's a thought around. Irrespective of what it is, it's something that sits with him still today. Maybe it was. I don't, I don't know what the time, what maybe was 40 years ago, 20 years ago, 50 years ago, maybe it was 60 years ago, but it sits with him today. Well, he has an opportunity to equilibrate that or just be with that in a different way, or just explore that, you know, like, the work doesn't need to stop. That's part of I'm. Here's what I'll say to Joel, to what you just said. For me, the prime directive of being human is to grow. Yeah. So whatever associations you make with growth, that's what I would say to that. Speaker A 00:16:21.030 - 00:16:28.110 Yeah. The work isn't a problem. Having more to do isn't a problem. Having more ways to expand, evolve and level up is not an issue. Yeah. Speaker B 00:16:28.110 - 00:16:51.330 No, no. And if you need a break, take a break, but don't use it as a. Don't use it as a. Because the ego's sneaky. Don't use it as an excuse not to do your work, but genuinely take a break. You need a break, take a break. Don't go, you know, swimming in the pool of Ayahuasca every second day like that ain't. That ain't gonna help you. Maybe it will for a period of time, because that's what you need. But perpetually, no. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker C 00:16:51.330 - 00:18:06.700 Things definitely Ebb and flow. And as you grow and as you evolve, like, you're gonna be faced with new circumstances in life. And so, like, for myself and maybe for you, you know, we have certain patternings. And then we realize, okay, I want to be in a healthy partnership. Like, what do I need to do? Like, now I'm in a partnership. Like, what do I need to grow in order to be in that partnership? And then, you know what? I' scared of getting married. What does that mean? I still have these patterns that are there that are pulling on me, but, like, I also want deep, connected partnership. And so what do. How do I. How does that shift? And then I get married. And then, like, you're in marriage that you've never been in before. You've never been married. And so now you're faced with something. And for you and for Joel, you guys are parents. Like, until you experience parenthood, you're. You haven't had the experience. So then you do experience, and then life brings you other things to. That are going to cause you to face stuff. So. And then on and on, it continues. Like, I've never experienced death, but there's going to be. Or being near death, but there will be a time where I'm going to be close to death, and nothing really would have prepared me until being close to death. And how do I relate to that? You know what I mean? So I feel like life always has these opportunities. They're presenting you new, new, you know, a new potential for growth that you wouldn't have had if you didn't have that circumstance in front of you. Speaker A 00:18:06.700 - 00:18:16.300 I mean, you're speaking to the idea of, like, reality as a teacher. It's not like we really need to go around looking for freaking work to do, you know, like, just look at your life ultimately. Speaker B 00:18:16.620 - 00:18:45.670 Yeah. Just sit in observation of your life. I mean, and it's okay if you're unsatisfied or unhappy or even just a neutral, energetically towards the thing that you want to change in your life. Like, that exploration becomes, oh, let me learn more about me in this way, in this expression. Let me learn more about what's required of me to attain this idea or embody, embrace this idea that I have about what life could look like or feel like. Speaker A 00:18:46.230 - 00:18:46.630 Yeah. Speaker B 00:18:46.630 - 00:18:47.109 Yeah. Speaker C 00:18:47.510 - 00:19:19.570 How was it for you, you know, sharing what you shared about, you know, let's say, like, going for pleasure and wanting the adrenaline and then realizing, hey, you know, I didn't want to behave a certain way in partnership? Like, did you have any challenges? Like, you have Your. Your current partner that I believe you've been with for a while. Like, were there any challenges, like, leading up to that? Oh, am I going to be able to be faithful? Or am I. Am I going to be able to, you know, be the man that I want to be? And, like, how did. How did you work through that? And then what. What you. What have you found on the other side of making that commitment? Because obviously I have my own personal experiences, and I'm curious to hear yours. Speaker B 00:19:20.290 - 00:23:04.680 Yeah, leading up wasn't a challenge just based on my life experience up to that point and the. The very specific inner work or exploration that I did around that and the space that I had to do that, you know, and we've been together a little over seven years, and every. Every relationship goes through different stages of relating, right? So we've had challenges and we've had ease and grace, and we've had, you know, and having a child as well for us is, you know, we had children, I guess, technically speaking, later on in life, you know, in our 40s. And that comes with its own set of challenges. So again, not about bad or good, just challenges. Right. And so that strains the relationship and how you relate. And then often we can go back to. And I have go back to old reactive patterns, and there's another opportunity to be in a different relationship with those patterns that are coming up. Whether it's my reactivity or abrasiveness or even, you know, dissonance or disconnection or stonewalling or just shutting down in the ways that I shut down because, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed or life's feeling too much. And, you know, how do we. How do we. The question that we come back to is, like, how do we remain in deep relational contact with each other while we're under pressure, you know, and. And with ourselves. And sometimes it's not easy to do. But can we communicate that in kind, compassionate ways? Sometimes we don't always get that right. And so, yeah, there's definitely been challenges. And then, you know, again, man, like to speak transparently, like when I. When I go through challenges, if they're. They're lengthened. And then in relation to my partner, you know, we have this. We have. All of us have this. Like, I'll start thinking, oh, maybe the grass is greener. Maybe we shouldn't be together. You know, I've had. We've had moments in our relationship where, you know, we've both thought that in different ways. And probably I'd say me more than my Partner. But. And. But I know that's a reactive pattern. I know that's a survival strategy. I genuinely don't want that. And I know I don't want that. Like, I'm clear. I don't want that. But I'm trying to find reprieve. And all I'm doing is that little boy that couldn't find reprieve. When mom and dad were fighting or when I was getting physically, you know, belted, I just wanted reprieve. And I'd find any way to get reprieve, get me out of here. Disassociation, physically leaving. And so it's the same thing that's happening. So it's just an opportunity for me to work with that part of me that's really scared. So let me be more vulnerable and open and transparent with myself and be really real with myself. So. So, you know, it's. You've got to. Having a North Star is really important. And being truthful and honest with yourself and. And noticing the vitality and the energy of where truth resides within self is really important. And coming back to truth, Coming back to my truth is important. Coming back to how I express my truth is important. And that's all we can do, man, is just, you know, being the. In the most amount of integrity, we can with ourselves, be communicative, know who we are and what we want. And if we have confusion around that. Stop, pause, re. Evaluate, share what's necessary to share, hold on to. Not in a performative way or. Or malicious way, but hold on to what you need to be with before you give it to the world. You know, I don't go tell my partner everything I'm feeling and think it's not for her to know. And it's sometimes not for anyone to know. So what I'm saying about radical honesty and transparency, I'm talking about, you know, discerning what's relative and relevant for that. That relationship and the vehicle that is that relationship and that person honoring them. But there are some aspects of self that you want to keep to yourself, and that's okay. Yeah. Speaker C 00:23:04.920 - 00:23:17.400 What do you think's the biggest problem in, like, modern relationships? Male, female dynamics. You know, it feels like we're like, at a really interesting place right now. And there's so many different opinions on how men should be and how women should be and. Yeah, just curious. Your take? Speaker B 00:23:17.640 - 00:25:42.200 Yeah, I think people need to make up their own minds and hearts about how they want to be in the world, you know, and it's good to obviously take in it's healthy to take in information and, but, but, but sit with it, be with it, pause, you know, just if, if someone is telling you something or society seems to be, you know, you know, in a mass generalization way, telling you something about your own sexuality or, you know, your own preferences, you know, intimate romantic partner based preferences or how you should behave. Like, take it on, but pause, reflect. Like, do you really want to take that on permanently? Like, is that something that you want to do? Is that how you want to be in the world? Does that sit right with you? If not, why like people? So one of the, to answer your question is like confusion is one of the biggest problems people face. Confusion about themselves. I don't, we don't know ourselves, right? And therefore we're relying on other people to do the thinking for us. And it's largely because we're so disconnected from our own parent and our own familial unit and lineage, and we're so, you know, traumatized by our own upbringing that we've outsourced our thinking and we've outsourced our authority, essentially. So we're waiting for society, government, someone else that we place on a pedestal to tell us what's good for us, right? So that confusion in relationship, it lends itself to us being inauthentic and wearing masks. So confusion not being in our truth, not really knowing who we are and what we actually want and just doing what we think other people want us to do, like, oh, mom and dad want me to do this or my culture will want me to do this, or this is what my friends say I should do. And then we just go do it. But that's not really what we want, you know, and so they're, they're big pain points around masculinity, around femininity, around just relating. And then people just aren't doing their own inner work, man. They're not, they're not self reflective and they're not able and, or willing to change, or at least it's a story they tell themselves. And then what, what bolts onto that is compulsion and addictions that are distractions and numbing and running from the stuff that we've been avoiding since probably childhood. So all those things combined, you've got adolescent children and little children in adult bodies relating to each other intimately that look like adults, but then are really confused because they're not. Because they're regressed when they're communicating with each other, because they're still living from hurt places. Speaker C 00:25:44.120 - 00:25:44.760 Well said. Speaker A 00:25:44.840 - 00:26:14.740 Yeah, very well, very well. Said, yeah, I mean, I think like another, another aspect to that playing out is like, you know, when people are so disconnected from who they really are at their core, from the truth within themselves, and they kind of become a chameleon to any guru, any teacher, any idea, any podcast, whatever it might be, is like, oh, this is the missing thing. Then they completely transform and try to like act in relationships in these completely inorganic, inauthentic ways because they've, they've heard something which they think is the missing piece. You know, when it's always deeper than that. Speaker B 00:26:15.620 - 00:26:50.330 Well, this is, I mean, look at our society, right? Like, you know, the YouTube algorithm for YouTube shorts is ideally, you know, under 15 seconds. It's, you know, it's, we, we just want bite sized pieces of information and we make that mean that it's really valuable, meaningful and dense and of substance. But sometimes it is, but often it's not because it's, it's piecemeal together. And this is the society we live in. We live in a fragmented society, but the fragmentation in society is really just a reflection of the fragmentation that lives within us. Speaker A 00:26:52.650 - 00:27:21.370 Yeah, obviously. It seems, I guess on the same topic, it seems today as though, you know, there's a big performative outpush of like polarity teachings in relationships. Like all over social media, everyone seems to be a polarity coach, whatever it might be. What is the healthy balance, in your opinion, with polarity teachings in relationships? Because it seems as though there's extreme variations of what this is supposed to look like within relationship. Speaker B 00:27:22.650 - 00:31:02.130 Yeah, polarity teaching can bring out deeper awareness around some of the old neurological, psychological, relational hurts that we hold within us. And then I think something that, again, to honor and answer your question in a more direct way, I think what's so much of polarity teaching is missing is probably two key things. One, and not, not all polarity teaching, of course, but, but so much of what's out there in terms of what's saturated, so to speak, it's, it's missing the, the, the truth of if you, if you're living from compensation and you're living from survival patterns and, and survival based personality patterns and ego and protective mechanisms, then you can stack all the polarity you want. On top of that, you, you just say that old adage of you can put a lipstick on a pig, but the pig's still a pig, right? And so you can do all the polarity you want, but unless you sort of heal those deeper wounds, it becomes really, really challenging. Then the other point to, to, for Polarity to really flourish, right? But then the, the other side to those, what I said at the beginning, which was polarity can access those deeper ways. But you need a skillful teacher or group or ethos, like the energy of the group to, to direct that and blend that together. Right? But the other point is that we're running away from what we don't want to see a lot. We all do it, man. I still do it. I'm sure you guys do it in your own ways. Like we all do it. And until we really face the parts of ourselves that we've been running from in truth, but in non judgmental truth, you can't, you can't face it with massive judgment. You've got to face it with non judgment and compassion and get to a place of consciousness where it's not a problem for you, where you can sit there and smile with it and laugh with it and not, not be so hard on yourself. The thing that you've been avoiding, for example, I might say to you, man, I love, I love being a victim. True. I'm giving you a real, real example. I love playing the victim. And I can tell you where that's come from. I can tell you how I developed that as a kid and so forth. But I am addicted to being a victim because it gets me what I want and it puts me in greater levels of control. And so when, when I'm in my unhealthy constitution, I will play the victim. And there are so many things that input into that. Like in order for me to really be the victim, I've got to allow myself or have a story that I can't be patient or I can't be calm and like actually sense it in conflict. I have to be aggressive and go to 0 to 100 really quickly because that, that then act because I do damage in the relationship and then, you know, relational emotional damage in the relationship and then I get to play the victim as a result of that. I can twist it and be manipulative and all these parts of me play out like I'm giving you a real life example of, you know, just some of my patterns when I'm in my unhealthy self. And this is like, we don't want to face this stuff, but we've got to in order to stop walking around so fragmented. Otherwise we're just giving the world the convenient parts of ourselves. It's like when we meet someone for the first time, like we put our best foot forward. Well, that's why so many relationships not only because of the, you know, the honeymoon period and the limerence phase and the physiological effects of those sort of waning, but also because. Oh, hold on. That's not who you were when we first met. Well, no, because I wasn't. I was hiding myself because I've been hiding from myself, from myself for so many years. I'm going to hide myself from you, too. Yeah. Speaker C 00:31:02.130 - 00:32:51.250 It's like this expectation of perfection that happens in relationships sometimes. Like expecting the person not to be a full human being with history, with trauma, with patterns that maybe they. They've worked through, but can peek through depending on the scenario. And it's like, again, it's like putting the focus back on their inner work and loving and accepting the different parts of yourself more and more and being willing and be willing to be seen in that. In partnership to a certain degree, you know. And I'm curious your thoughts in like, male, female relating, like, how much does a man share with the woman? Like, you know, I get this. Maybe this relates a little bit to the polarity. Like, does a man need to have, like, men in their life or other people that they go to for certain things? And. But obviously their. Their female partner wants to sense some vulnerability and intimacy and connection. Like, you know, and each partnership has to figure out what that balance is. I don't think there's like a hard and fast rule, but I'd love for you to talk about that in terms of like, you know, like, when. When does it. When does a man over share when a woman feels like, oh, I got to take care of this little boy, or I have to, you know, you know, mother this person and. And not feel safe. Like, there's. I feel like I've noticed in my life, you know, in the past, because I was raised by a Greek mom. I was a little bit of like a mama's boy. And so early on in my relationships, it was a lot of that, like, take care of me. You know, take care of me, like, over share. And I was like, well, that isn't ideal. That's not who I want to be. And so I've noticed I need more discernment, you know, as I've matured and progressed through relationship, like, you know, how do I stand solid? And yet at the same time, my wife, you know, especially the two of us, were in the world of personal development, personal growth. And so we communicate, we. And we connect in a certain way. And so I'll share certain things, but there's some stuff where I might not bring to her you know, it's, it's not for her. I might be like, joel, man, can we talk, bro? Like, I got some things I need to share with you. You know what I mean? Speaker B 00:32:52.050 - 00:35:50.330 Yeah, I mean, I think you've also answered the question how I would approach it as well. And when we're stuck in that immature boyhood energy and the archetype of neediness and insecurity and we don't know who we are, we will overshare. We'll call it vulnerability, but really it's vomiting. Now when we're, when we're stuck in low self worth and low self esteem and we want others to save us, then we'll overshare. And we won't share from a stable place, we won't share from a place of genuine vulnerability and authenticity. We'll share to be saved. Or we'll share because we want to be seen a particular way, like seen as the victim. So people can feel sorry for us, or we don't want to actually address the consistent things that are occurring in our lives because of our own hand and our own thoughts and our own actions. And we'll just have people focus on the vulnerability. And so I think, you know, when we get stuck in those cycles, we're not really being true to our vulnerability. We're not being true to the courageous act of sharing. I mean, I like to, I like to use this principle like if you're in, in a challenging situation. I'm talking about, I'm not talking about like a physically dangerous situation. I'm talking about internally, right? Allow yourself to be your first port of call. Check in with yourself. Go for a walk, Sit and sit in stillness and silence, journal. Just be with that thing. Be with the feeling of it. Really feel it. Let it, let it permeate your field, right? Like hold it. And you're only able to do that when you trust yourself, know yourself, carry enough worthiness of self, believe in who you are, believe in your own capacity and capabilities. If that, if you continue to get stuck after a period of time, discern what that period of time looks like. Go to, go to your brotherhood or go to your partner. Maybe, maybe it is your partner, but go to your brotherhood. Go to the men in your life that can reflect back to you what's going on. Work it out, tease it out, be with it. You have to fix it. Just be with it, continue to be with it. And then maybe you bring that to your partner if you feel that she needs to know that. And this isn't about being Stoic, or she needs to feel you, maybe, and you need her. Your request is that she's witnessing you. And that can bring you bond more bonded and closer together. But if it comes from a place of desperation or like you said, you know, I'm just. I just need mothering because that's the wound that you have. All you're doing is perpetuating her wound of being a caretaker. And now you're not in polarity and you're not in relationship now. Now you're in mother son dynamics. And no one wants to their mother, and a mother doesn't want to her son unless there's a pathology there. So you're then relating from a pathological. An emotionally pathological place. Speaker C 00:35:51.800 - 00:35:52.120 Yeah. Speaker A 00:35:53.800 - 00:36:13.000 Can we kind of extrapolate that a little bit? Because I feel like we kind of talk about the quote unquote, mother wound a lot, but I feel like many people don't actually know what that is or where that's kind of born or what, you know, is the root of that. So would you be cool to like, kind of briefly share what the mother wound is in your eyes? Speaker B 00:36:13.480 - 00:37:14.360 Yeah. So the mother would, like. The father wound is a formal diagnosis in psychology. It's more of a representation of, you know, a set of behaviors that play out in. In adult intimate partnerships that can be linked to unhealthy ways of relating as a child to your mother and or father. Right. And so the mother wound comes in many different forms, but part of it is being an overbearing mother or an overwhelming mother, or an overshadowing mother, being a narcissistic mother, you know, demanding perfection from her children, being uncaring and unnurturing, being smothering. So there's different extremes of the mother wound, so to speak. Like, so if we're talking about, generally speaking, and in boys and, you know, you're asking me, you could probably relate to this, just, you know, the. The sort of. The ethnic or the Greek mother, Italian mother can be over, coddling over, overbearing, overprotective. Speaker A 00:37:15.770 - 00:37:16.730 And a Lebanese mother, too. Speaker B 00:37:16.730 - 00:43:14.930 Lebanese, yeah, same. Same. Right. There's not gonna be much difference. Slight cultural nuances, but very, very much the same. But you're also going to have the emotional enmeshment. So enmeshment, parentification, entanglement, emotional incest. These are terms for this where the mother, again, the father does. The father can do this as well, like a parent. But we're just talking mother boy for a minute, mother son for a second, The. The mother. So just to be Clear. This is not exclusive to the mother son dynamic. This is parent child dynamic is projecting unconsciously all of her unmet emotional needs onto her son, right? Oh, you're my little boy. Maybe they're sleeping together until he's like 15 or 12 or whatever. Maybe she's inappropriately touching him. Not sexually inappropriately, just inappropriate for his age group as he's developing and boy becoming a man, she stops him or holds him back, like by being overprotective. Don't do this, don't do that. You stay with me, I need you. Or your father's an asshole, you know, whatever it is, right? Like all of those things and more that stunts his, his growth. Like maybe the boy or the teenager, 17 or 18, brings, brings a girlfriend home and she doesn't approve and he's seeking her approval because he needs her approval. So he's torn between the girlfriend and. And the mother. And this carries on until he's falling 40s. And maybe he lives with his mum or he prioritizes his mum over his partner or his family. And these are examples, right? And so the mother hasn't wanted to let go. You know, if you guys haven't read I and John, read I and John. It's a great book on, on that particular rite of passage. Couple of. There's a few different threads that are pulled there, but one of them are that that boy becoming a man and untethering from the mother and, you know, being released by the mother. You see this in so many different cultures throughout history. You know, at certain times, the boy stops spending time with his mother for a good period of time until he becomes more of a man. You know, this term teenager is a very new term in modern history. Boys, men, that's it. There wasn't teenagers. You're a boy, you become a man at some point, somewhere between, depending on the culture, depending on the time and the era. This is a little extreme, but it is what it is. Between 9 and 15, 9 and 16, somewhere there you become boy. You go boy to man. That's it. But that doesn't happen if the mother doesn't release her grip because, you know, the mother plays such an important role in that child's life. You know, they're still technically tethered in terms of their nervous systems are still very much connected up to the age of seven. You know, that mother gave birth to that child. The child was living in the womb for so long, you know, so I don't blame a mother for. Especially a single mother that has to play Multiple roles, because the father's not in the child's life, because maybe he's dead or he's just left or they're divorced or he works a lot or whatever, right? There's so many different circumstances. So that mother wound is very much not spoken much about with boys and men and how it contributes to male fragility and a sense of feeling emasculated and not being connected to the core of their own masculinity, not knowing how to be with women and having issues with jealousy and intimacy and relational contact. A lot of it can be brought back to not blaming the mother, Let me be very clear, can be brought back to that mother son dynamic in the early years as well. And then, you know, whatever afflictions and personal traumas and unconscious shit she brings as a parent, I mean, I bring it. Joel, you said you're a parent, you're going to bring it. It's natural, right? Like, couple that on top of that specificity of the mother wound and we're in some pretty deep waters as a man, like, it becomes tough. Like, we start to look for escape routes because intimacy is dangerous, man. Like, I was smothered by my mother. I don't want to experience that again. Because what we're doing is we're unconsciously as men, projecting our mother onto every woman. And like I said, men don't want to fuck their mom. So what are they doing? They're pushing that woman away and she's like, hey, hold on, I just want to get close now. She's got her own stuff. It's a perfect storm, Trauma, trains coming together. But he's still in that pattern because he hasn't worked that out yet. He hasn't untethered from his mother and he hasn't done that inner work himself. And this isn't about blaming Mum, it's not about shouting at her, sort of about telling her she's wrong and she should have done better. It's got very. I mean, that could be part of your process in being witnessed with other men, whatever trauma release exercises or emotional practices you're going through, but it's not directed at your mum. And so men have to move beyond that. Like, it's your responsibility as a man if you're holding a mother wound, if any of that relates to you, right? You know, your mum telling you what to do, how to do it, up until, you know, go to this college, go to this school, do this, don't play with that boy, play this sport, you know, oh, Mama loves you. So much. How can you hurt your mother like that? You know, like if any of this shit's related to classic. Oh, you know, oh, everything I've done for you. Yeah, everything I've done for you, I've sacrificed for you. I make you here, let me make you all this food. Like, you know, if all that manipulation is there and you are untethered from that, that's your responsibility to get untethered from that. Not your mother's, not anyone else's, not your partners. But that's the thing. Like men will look to their. This is the double edged sword. Like you're looking to mum to save you. Because you've pedestalized mum. You've made her as you've pedestalized your father, you've made her God. We deify our parents and at the same time you wanted to get away from you because it's sickening and repulsing. It repulses you. It's icky. But at the same time you deify her. So you're torn and you don't know what to do with it and you project that onto your partner. So she's super confused too. So we have to be responsible for moving that stuff through our bodies. Yeah. Speaker C 00:43:14.930 - 00:43:45.060 It is so interesting to notice, you know, I've noticed it with clients and you know, relatives or just people in my life, how much they hold on to the victim mindset around their parents. Like if my mom raised me a different way, if my dad did this, then my life would be different. And it's like, well, this already happened, you know, Like, I get it, it might be part of the process to sit with it and come to an acceptance. But at what point point do you stop blaming mom and dad for like the life that you have? Like, they're happy. Speaker B 00:43:45.060 - 00:43:56.820 It's convenient. Yeah, yeah, it's convenient, man. It's convenient for people to keep blaming others because then it takes them away from needing to do the work. Yeah. Speaker C 00:43:57.460 - 00:44:20.810 Who have been some of your mentors, like and like, as you were on your journey, like the, the schools of thought, the philosophies, like the things that you've been drawn to that supported you in working through your stuff to be, you know, the man that you are today. I'm sure there's a lot of self education and self reflection part of it. But like what have been some of those, like those books or those workshops or those teachers that really, you know, impacted you? Speaker B 00:44:22.170 - 00:45:38.240 Oh man, I'm looking, I'm actually looking at some of my books here now. I like to Go to this what. What I would see origins and source of. Of wisdom. And so for me, you know, the early Christian wisdom traditions, the Maharabhata, you know, ancient Indian Vedanta is very prominent in my life. Just looking at some of these authors here. What's his name? Sam Keane. Sam Keane is a great author on masculinity. Warren Ferrell, Warren Farrell. I think it's Warren Ferrell. Yeah, he's good. Harville Hendrix, I mentioned him before. The Gottman Institute, I'm talking about. I mean, there's obviously been many mentors and teachers and. And energy healers and. And shamans, for lack of a better medicine people, for lack of a better or a better term that, you know, individuals that have shaped my life in very profound ways. But I'm talking about, you know, teachers, you know, books that I've read. I mean, so. So many, man, I have to get a bit closer. My eyes are. Speaker C 00:45:38.240 - 00:45:50.840 No, no worries, man. I hear you. I mean, I'm. Again, when you're in this world for two, you know, two, Two plus decades, you know, there. There are different books, there's different things that come across. I was just curious if there's something like right off the top of your head, if there's a future mentor. Speaker B 00:45:52.920 - 00:45:53.000 You. Speaker C 00:45:53.000 - 00:45:54.920 Know, looking good with those glasses, man. Speaker B 00:45:55.240 - 00:46:31.260 Thanks, man. You know, Gaffney gets a bad rap in certain. Certain ways, and I. And I can understand. Put that aside. Like, some of his teachings are really, really beautiful. And I don't necessarily approve of, you know, many of the things that I've heard. You know, Donovan is his name. Jack Donovan, again, a great author on masculinity. Really wise fellow. This is. Well, this is. I mean, I don't know how many people know about this, but Alice A. Bailey has written. Speaker A 00:46:31.500 - 00:46:32.060 Yep. Speaker B 00:46:32.380 - 00:46:33.900 You familiar with. Yeah, many. Speaker A 00:46:34.379 - 00:46:35.500 The Gifted child, right? Speaker B 00:46:38.540 - 00:47:21.510 No, I don't think it's a gifted child. There's a series that I have that is. And I haven't gone through it all, but it's phenomenal. But, yeah, man, there's been. There's been so many. So many different authors, you know, along the way that have definitely, you know, John Bradshaw as well, you know, definitely deeper in a child work there. But yeah, I spent a lot of time reading older ancient esoteric wisdom, you know, from different. From different cultures. Yeah, cool, man. Speaker C 00:47:21.510 - 00:47:21.870 Thank you. Speaker B 00:47:21.870 - 00:47:23.470 I get a lot from that, personally. Speaker C 00:47:23.630 - 00:47:25.470 Alice Bailey was like theosophy, right? Speaker B 00:47:25.870 - 00:47:26.310 Yes. Speaker A 00:47:26.310 - 00:47:27.150 Oh, that's right. Speaker C 00:47:27.470 - 00:47:27.950 Yeah. Speaker B 00:47:32.190 - 00:47:32.550 Where. Speaker A 00:47:32.550 - 00:47:41.830 Where do you stand? I guess it seems to me. Is that like the primary book that's impacted men kind of on this path. Is kind of David Data's ideas the way of the superior man. Speaker B 00:47:41.830 - 00:47:58.410 ET yeah, I've forgotten about David. I mean, I'm just. Sorry. Book as you mentioned. Just saw a book right there. Yes. David date is great. I mean he's definitely been influential to me for sure. Yeah. Speaker A 00:47:59.770 - 00:48:02.210 Stefanos go well. Speaker C 00:48:02.210 - 00:48:02.690 I was gonna say. Speaker B 00:48:02.690 - 00:48:02.970 I agree. Speaker C 00:48:03.210 - 00:48:20.530 I read the, I've read the way the Superior man at like near the end of every single one of my like prior relationships. It was like, okay, I feel like I need to revisit it and see how I can like adjust over the last, you know, however many years. I don't know when it came out, like 20, 30 years ago, but yeah. Speaker B 00:48:20.530 - 00:48:23.290 Yeah, some time ago. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker A 00:48:23.290 - 00:48:42.470 Well, I mean, it can't be understated how much man needs to be connected to purpose for everything else in his life to flourish and feel more fulfilled in my, in my personal experience, like when I've just been floating in the wind, not being self directed, not having a mission beyond my family, you know, then it doesn't, I don't know, get up to mischief. Yeah, exactly. Speaker B 00:48:42.470 - 00:48:42.830 Yeah. Speaker A 00:48:43.310 - 00:48:48.430 Get up to mischief. And sometimes I'm pouring too much into them because I don't know what else I should be doing, you know? Speaker B 00:48:48.430 - 00:49:34.370 Yeah, yeah, you're like, you like a canister with a stack of holes just punctured in you, just leaking, you know, and, and this is, you know, Jack Donovan speaks a lot to that. You guys should spend some time reading some of Jack if you haven't some, some of Jack Donovan's book. Even, even Rollo Tomasi's the Rational Male. Interesting books. Again, don't agree with everything that he, that he shares in there, but really, really interesting stuff. And then you know, of course, just where you got me ticking now, you know, what's his name? Oh man. Somatic experiencing. Peter Levine Porges. You know, like the, the trauma informed work, the, the deeper work around nervous system and how that impacts relationships. It's, that's really important work as well. It's definitely shaped. Speaker C 00:49:35.160 - 00:50:40.680 I personally think it's foundational and it's something that in a lot of personal development spheres, like it's not as included and I think it's growing, you know, and at the same time somatics become a buzzword and everyone for sure mother is a somatic practitioner. But yeah, my wife and I went through the three year training with somatic experiencing. And yeah, I definitely enjoyed that as a baseline because it's like if you can't understand your physiology if you can't relate to yourself in an intimate way, in a nuanced way to understand what the hell is even happening inside of you. You know, as you're living life, as you're in relationship, like, it's, it's primary in a lot of ways. And so I'm, I actually, as much as I can, like, talk a little about the fact that everyone's a trauma informed these days. At the same time, I'm happy that it's becoming more of, more in the conversation. And we're not, we're not just like talking heads and that we understand we have a body and that, you know, there's wisdom in there that supports us as we, you know, move through life. So, yeah, yeah, it's. Speaker A 00:50:40.680 - 00:51:32.660 So it seems generally that women seem to be first drawn to deeper work within relationships. And it seems to be like a tricky kind of road when the woman feels that the man isn't doing the work, he's not reading anything, he's not informing himself. Then all of a sudden she starts projecting onto him that she's enlightened or she's evolved and he's not. I found that never to be really helpful in any relational scenario. So can you speak into that? And also like, where do you feel like is. This is going to be a generalization, but some of the key areas where women are preventing men from being who they actually want them to be or expect them to be or to be more connected, to be more emotionally available, to be more whatever it might be. Where do women in their eagerness hold back men from growth? Speaker B 00:51:34.900 - 00:55:12.140 Oh, it's an interesting question, the way you frame that. So firstly, I don't think it's helpful for anyone to force anyone to grow. I don't. There are some circumstances where that definitely is works, but in a relate like, you know, like hell week for the Navy Seals, right, You're forcing and pushing growth. And in certain circumstances that works. It's a very masculine paradigm and very masculine way to be. Whereas in relationship, if we're talking about polarity, there's, there's, there's a dance of masculine feminine. So forcing growth, even in a relational sense, even if you're trying to force a man to grow, can usually, usually will have an adverse effect because it's, it's too connected to relational wounding and a way of being in the world that didn't sit very well as a kid in our nervous systems and in our psychology. And so it can just trigger us and activate us and we end up spending too much time dealing with the forcefulness and the trigger as opposed to potentially actually changing. So, you know, I often will advise or invite women to invite their man into growth. You know, be aspirational, be the muse, be inspirational, be vulnerable, be real, be the invitation. And then if that man isn't coming to the party that you value deeply, then it's a just, it's a different conversation. If you've been doing that consistently and you're really in that and you can earnestly say, yeah, I've been really that, that, that invitation and he's not and it's really important to you, then it's just another conversation where I think anyone quote unquote stops anyone from growing. Well, firstly, let me just caveat and say the only, the reality is that we only stop ourselves from growing. We don't have the tools, the capacity, the desire to see beyond the victimization that we're projecting onto other people, meaning that we're conveniently blaming other people for the shit that's going wrong in our lives. So I want to really, really say that and, and so from that perspective, no one's stopping anyone from growing. But if you were to put something to it and some form and structure around that, it would be, well, you're not doing your own inner work. And so you, that's your contribution to the relationship. The, the third entity that is alive, not progressing because you're not doing your own inner work. You can't be responsible for the other person. They have to be responsible for themselves. That doesn't mean. I just want to say one thing to. That doesn't mean that we're not relational. I don't buy into this, the extreme expression of the self love movement where you can't, you don't love yourself. You know, no one's going to love you or you could, you only have to, you can only do well this truly, you can only do what you can do. But you just take care of your side of the street and they'll take care of yes and the yes and to that relationship is nuanced. There's a lot of grain relationship. Yes and yes do that. And there's also this third entity that is the relationship that you're both a part of. It's like owning an llc, like you own a company, there's two people in the company. Well, both people have to do their part, but you also got to see how to both. When both people come together, how does that change the expression of what that company represents? In the world. How does your relationship change? How does it, David Data's work speaks to. This is like the third stage of relationship is how does your relationship impact those around you, in the world around you? And the relationship is a product of not only you two as individuals, but how you interact with each other. If you're unwilling and unable and not doing your inner work, then you're probably contributing poorly to the other person, to yourself and to that relationship, and therefore everyone around you. Speaker A 00:55:15.180 - 00:55:20.460 Beautifully said, man. Do you think unconditional love is a reality? Speaker B 00:55:22.940 - 00:55:23.980 In what context? Speaker A 00:55:25.500 - 00:55:30.220 The context of these. Primary love. Real? Yeah. In primary. Yeah. Speaker B 00:55:30.300 - 00:55:32.300 Like, like in romantic partnerships. Speaker C 00:55:32.300 - 00:55:34.660 Yeah. Romantic partnership. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker B 00:55:34.660 - 00:55:38.850 You're fool if you think it's real. No offense if you guys think it's real. Speaker C 00:55:38.850 - 00:55:57.770 No, no, I don't. I, I agree the same thing. I, I, for me, I think the closest that comes is like the child, you know, like with like the love of a child. But like in partnership, like it's very conditional because if you're a piece of and you're not honoring yourself and honoring a relationship like what I'm. Just because I unconditionally love you, I'm gonna accept abuse. Speaker B 00:55:58.090 - 00:58:41.320 Yeah. But let's unpack that. Right. So I purposely, purposely said no. And I, and I believe that. And I purposely said, you know, anyone that believes that's a fool because I just want to create a little edge around it. Right. It's one of those yes. Ands again, I don't, you know, at certain, at certain levels you see boundaries and acceptance, they're not completely separate, but they can be two different conversations when it comes to unconditional love. Like, I believe unconditional love is possible. I believe very few people on this planet that are even alive have experienced it. Let alone. Sorry, yeah. Let alone people that throughout history I'm of the belief that unconditional love exists within the constitution of that being, of that consciousness expressing the world when they're enlightened. And so now we've got to go to what is defining enlightenment mean? Right. So I would define enlightenment as, and I take this word very seriously, is there is a transcendence beyond the sort of cause and effect that comes from this material world. And there is a, a deeper self realization and self actualization of the reality of oneness. And this is Advaita Vedanta. Right. This is non, dual reality. Like, but it's the complete embrace of that, if you like, from that place unconditional love can exist. Doesn't mean that you, you don't you just let people harm you or hurt you. And just because you say no to someone harming you, it doesn't mean you don't have unconditional love. But when we're triggered, when we're, when we become aggressive, defensive, protective in any ways, we're not operating from unconditional love. And again, like, this is a human thing. This is the thing that we need to embrace. And this is, I believe that if we ever have any hope of actually experiencing unconditional love, we have to embrace the fact that we are unconditional. That's the paradox. Like that we just, we're human and we're not. We're going to get triggered. We're going to get upset, we're going to get angry. We're going to be in duality of elation and deflation, you know, of, of contraction and expansion. And until you sort of separate from that and you. And you know, like, in extreme cases, you start to sort of maybe separate from what we know as the laws of physics. I don't know if unconditional love is accessible to us as humans in this, in this expression, in this form. Does that make sense? Speaker C 00:58:42.200 - 00:58:57.890 Yeah, I think I hear what you're saying. I guess it's just hard for me that if we still are able to be in conditional love, but then, you know, say no to someone, like, based on their behavior. Like, I guess, I guess love can still be there at the base. I'm just trying to. Speaker B 00:58:57.890 - 00:59:43.950 Yeah, yeah, so. So let's just say you're in relationship with someone, right? And they are wanting to stab you in the chest, right, with a knife. And for whatever reason, not because of deep attachment, but just because you don't want them to stab you in the chest, right? Because you'd like to keep living because you have other things that you are purposeful in doing in the world and you have other relationships you want to maintain. You stop them from doing that and then, you know, compassionately restrain them. Does that mean that you don't have capacity for it? Are you saying that for you to have unconditional love, you've got to just let people do whatever the they want to you? Speaker C 00:59:44.510 - 01:00:04.350 Well, no, I, I don't think so. I just. Sometimes I feel like that's the, the notion that people take from it. It's like, oh, yes, like you can. I unconditionally love you based on the condition. Like, no matter how you treat me, I still love you. You know what I mean? That's why, that's the feeling I get Sometimes when people say that, no, that's. Speaker B 01:00:04.350 - 01:00:24.949 Just, yeah, that, that's just. I don't think that's unconditional love. I think that's self abuse and I think that's, that's low self worth. And in fact, I would say that's very far from unconditional love because you don't have unconditional love for yourself and you don't have any self respect, that you just allow people to abuse you because you don't want to hurt people or because it's under a facade. I think it's a very complex topic. Speaker A 01:00:24.949 - 01:00:25.630 Yeah, it is. Speaker B 01:00:25.630 - 01:00:31.750 Very complex topic. I don't think there's any wrong or right. We're having conversations about it. I don't know if we're getting it. Speaker A 01:00:31.750 - 01:01:04.720 But one of my favorite, one of my favorite definitions of love is from the psychologist M. Scott Peck. And he says love is to be interested in the spiritual growth of another person. And I think you can still be interested in the spiritual growth of another person even when they're acting in ways that might be harmful or hurtful or projecting onto you. Like, you know, like. Yeah, I don't think this is right. I don't accept this for myself. But I don't want you to, you know, spiritually regress. I want you to use this as fuel for you to grow, no matter whether our lives remain connected or not. Speaker C 01:01:05.280 - 01:01:15.320 Totally. But I'm wondering, is that his definition of love or unconditional love or unconditional love? And you know, obviously the Greeks have multiple words for love, so that's a whole another conversation too. Speaker B 01:01:15.320 - 01:03:16.530 But yeah, yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I. The unconditional love conversation, I think is our attempt to strive for perfection as a humanity and to be God. Yeah. And I don't necessarily think that's a good or a bad thing, but I think the majority of the come from really matters. So it's, it's, to me, it's less about action and more about what's underneath the action that defines the principle of love or unconditional love or conditional love in these examples. And when we get to, when we get to real honest clarity around that, then maybe we have a chance at unconditional love. You know, And I think in moments of, I think in moments of, of again, like such a paradox, man, life is full of paradoxes. In moments of intensity, maybe even fear. Or you know, you mentioned near a near death experience, right? In the, in the moment of a near death experience. Maybe unconditional love consumes you. Like it fills You. And what does that mean? It maybe means that things that used to bother you don't. There's a love for all. You know. I would like to think that there's been a couple of times in my life where I've had moments of really touching unconditional love. Some of them have been through very deep, profound medicine journeys. Some, you know, one of them was through a near death experience. But I can't. At this stage of my consciousness, I. At least the story I'm telling myself is. I don't, I can't hold that energetic of unified oneness. I think that's sort of unconditional love. Like you realize that there is no separation. That's probably how I would define unconditional love. Like it's, it's a deep connection. Like you become God because you realize that's what you are. Like that's what you and God are the same. There's no difference. There's no separation. And yeah, I would say that's how I would define unconditional love. I don't, I don't know how many people walk around like that. 24, 7. Speaker C 01:03:17.050 - 01:03:48.090 Yeah, I think that's it because I feel like we can get glimpses of it, you know, through certain experiences. And even for myself when I feel so deeply connected to my vulnerability or maybe I hear this epic song or this movie that it's like it opens up my heart in this way where it's not like a sadness, it's just this deep openness where I just feel so much love and compassion for, for myself and everyone else within that and want the best for everyone else. But not in this self sacrificial way, but just in this pure way of. Speaker B 01:03:48.530 - 01:03:48.770 Of. Speaker C 01:03:49.410 - 01:04:11.010 Yeah. But again, it's, it's fleeting. It's not. I'm not walking around and I don't think, I don't think we're meant to walk around all day like that because we have to be in the world and you know, walk down dark streets at night. It might not be ideal to, to be in that state. I don't know. Again, that could just be a story I'm telling myself too. But there's definitely glimpses of, of something grander and, or more all encompassing that I think we can experience. Speaker A 01:04:12.690 - 01:04:56.660 Yeah. Do you think that we have kind of lost the sanctity of commitment and devotion a little bit. And do you think that again, generally speaking, maybe we are less resilient in terms of persevering within relationship? Because you know, I found like my relationship has Strengthened so much, you know, as a result of the darkest depths that we were really called to persevere in connection with each other and what's been born coming out the other side of that on multiple occasions. But like, it's always like that tightrope that you're walking at certain times when you're being challenged and being called to evolve into something greater as a partnership. Speaker B 01:04:57.620 - 01:05:02.020 Yeah. To answer your two questions. Yes and yes. Yeah. Speaker A 01:05:02.260 - 01:05:20.770 Yeah. What is, what is devotion like to you? What does it mean? You know, like this word devotion. I feel like we don't, I don't think we hold it with the reverence that we need to when it comes to commitments we've made in marriage, in relationship. So if you could explore what being devoted is, you know, from your perspective. Speaker B 01:05:20.930 - 01:06:04.240 Yeah, okay, maybe I'll, I'll explore it apathetically first. In other words, what it's not and then, you know, go into what it possibly is as well. I think we live in a very fast paced world connected to what we spoke to earlier about, you know, needing bite sized chunks of information. We live in a hyper connected world as well with the Internet, with social media that, you know, dating apps that give us a false sense and perception of what's available to us in terms of sex and, or intimacy, connection, romance. We just blended everything. It's just all blended and we're just confused. And so, you know, that grass is greener mentality really reigns supreme for so many. Speaker A 01:06:04.400 - 01:06:04.880 Yeah. Speaker B 01:06:04.880 - 01:09:04.409 And so there's less capacity for devotion. There's less capacity for commitment. You know, I think devotion really is a number of things. Like I would define love in a number of ways. I would define devotion as a, as a deep, deep commitment to oneself. One self expression, one's truth, ultimately truth. Like really getting to the core of truth. Being devoted to seek to understand the other person. Like seeking to understand the other person and prioritizing. That is a form of devotion. Right. Honoring commitments. And if you're not going to honor the commitment that you've made, placing more weight and value on the word and the deed and how they match. Right. Like we've lost that because again, not only do we live in a hyper connected world that gives us so much illusion. Right. We also live in a very busy world that puts a lot of pressure on us. Again, I'm not blaming society or the collective or the macro. It's more just, it's, it's pulling our attention. We also live in a very, very. What's the word? Razzle dazzle. Society I go to, like, everything's Vegas. Everything's just bright, shiny lights pulling our attention. There's no space for devotion. You know, I always, always have the. The image of the samurai or old Japanese culture from hundreds of years or a couple of thousand years ago where everything was very deliberate. And that's part of devotion, being deliberate and intentional, really feeling and thinking through the whole constitution of self before taking an action that's meaningful, Right? Like, moving slow. Like we have just moved away from that man so much. So there's no space for devotion. There's no space for us to honor the things that we desire and then the things that we say and then see them through. And if we don't see them through, how do we then face that? Usually we run away from it because we're so. We're in so much shame. Devotion for me is devoid of shame, but so much shame lives in us that there's no space again, for devotion. Shame contracts us. It creates more fear. It makes us hide. Devotion is open. You can. You can be private in your devotion per se, but you're connected to it. You can't be connected to your own devotion, your own. Your own commitments. And I don't necessarily use the terms interchangeably. I think there's similarities there. But devotion is deeper than just a commitment. It's a full immersion of self into the thing that you value most. There's so much shame that lives in so many of us, if not each and every one of us, that it pulls us away from our ability to devote to life, to the essence of life, to the value that is life. Like, what a gift life is. Like, how many people pause multiple times a day or once a month and just say, what a gift this breath is, this verifiable truth of breath. I'd say fuck all is the answer. Speaker C 01:09:05.369 - 01:09:07.219 Yeah, man, I love that you said that. Because it's. Speaker B 01:09:07.290 - 01:09:07.490 It's. Speaker C 01:09:07.490 - 01:09:52.839 It's something that I do my best to. To recognize. And even with the people that I. That I work with is like that simple recognition, you know? Like, everything that it took for us to be here, you know, so many things had to take place with all our ancestors for us to be here, to be given this gift of life, to take that first breath, to have blood coursing through our body and. And to be filled with life force. Like, that's like a miracle. And like, how often are we, you know, I guess honoring that and embodying it, it's not just a cerebral thing, but embodying it and, like being Excited that you are in a body, you know, and I get it. There's stuff that has impacted people's ability to do that. Speaker B 01:09:53.079 - 01:09:53.479 Yeah. Speaker C 01:09:53.479 - 01:11:08.820 But just at the baseline state, like I'm just so. I feel so blessed to be given this gift of life. And I think that's what drives me to want to become the best version of myself ultimately so I can be devoted to the people I care about the most and you know, starting with myself and then my wife and you know, if we bring a child into the world, a child, etc. So. Yeah. Do you think at all that. And I know religion is like a controversial subject for some people and especially in this country, that as people have moved away from a sort of like religious connection in life, that that has impacted the lack of devotion too. Because at least within religion there's this structure of devotion and that by that kind of dissolving away or people kind of just fumbling around trying to figure out how to live or exist without, let's say this, this, you know, this paradigm that it's impacted people in that sense. And then, and then we become more. What's the word I'm thinking of? We can get sucked into a lot of the societal distractions more because of that. And it's just a thought that came to me now and I was just curious because I'm not saying religion is the answer and we have to become this like highly fundamentalist Christian nation, but still there's something to say about. Speaker B 01:11:10.180 - 01:14:02.230 Something to say about structure, right? Yeah, there's something to say about structure. And I think this is again part of the very distracted world that we live in where there's this illusion of not only. So see, we have a lot of choice, but we have a very narrow bandwidth of executing that choice in our own personal capabilities. Right. And so sometimes we get paralysis by over analysis. There's all these options, all these different religions, all these different practices, there's all these different movements that we can be a part of and we just don't know where to go. And we go a little bit here and a little bit there. And so, you know, depth is lacking in our society, which then, you know, removes devotion. So there's breadth, but there's a lack of depth. And so, you know, what religion offers is structure. What religion offers is most religions at least is often hundreds if not thousands of years of structure and tried and tested methodology of coming together, of having a focus bigger than your own, of developing certain virtues and characteristics within self. Right. That are considered to be healthier for you More mature or better for you, More constructive, productive or good. Right. Such as patience, such as being loving in community, practicing compassion, forgiveness, etc. Like most of these religious, older religions, they all share a very, very similar ethos, Right. They have similar values and principles. I don't know if I think there's been. There was been in Christianity, there was a dip. I think there's. For various reasons, it's coming back in America would say if we're just focusing on this nation, I think it's coming back in a slightly more fundamentalist way. I don't know how healthy that is for our society. I don't think any extremism or fundamentalism is, or dogmatism is necessarily healthy for us as a collective or as individuals. But again, like, I see the appeal of religion, like the structure that it offers, the practices, the guidance, the community, the connection. Fundamental things that we, you know, we want to be seen, we want to be heard, we want to be understood and we get to be understood by a divine being, you know, the Almighty One. Or we get to be, you know, we get to realize that, you know, we belong in nirvana, whatever it is, right? Like that we're there and all we have to do these practices and it offers us something, it offers us safety, but all of it, man is again, us outsourcing our sense of safety and our sense of worth. Right? And if we come from that place, even religion is going to be detrimental to our health. Speaker A 01:14:02.710 - 01:15:03.440 Yeah, yeah. Now, I really like what you said before, man, because first and foremost, if you don't have like a deep reverence for the mystery of existence and of life itself, it's really hard to spread that around anywhere else, you know, or to seek that anywhere else. Like, for me, like, that fills the cup first and then from there I'm able to connect with others and show that devotion and show that gratitude elsewhere. And like, even religion can kind of pull away from that. You know, if people buy into these conditions and ideologies that this is a fallen realm, somehow, you know, we're in an accidental or somehow in accidental existence or the only purpose of life is to get to Nirvana or an afterlife or a heaven like that eats away at the sanctity of, of the mystery and of existence itself. So again, it depends on the person's consciousness and how they're relating to it. But there's no reason each and every person can't have their own personal religion where they're worshiping the sacred. Speaker B 01:15:03.680 - 01:15:04.120 They're. Speaker A 01:15:04.120 - 01:15:12.000 They're devoted to their own personal experience. Of, of whatever God is. And that fills them up from there, you know? Speaker B 01:15:12.080 - 01:15:19.450 Yeah, yeah. Ah. Speaker A 01:15:23.130 - 01:15:24.490 Answer from here. Osmos. Speaker C 01:15:25.050 - 01:15:58.590 Well, I mean this was last question for you. Like if you had, let's say all the men in the world lined up, you know, and through your life experience, through trials and tribulations of things that you learn, like what would be your message to men? And then I'd love to hear what your message to a woman would be. Not that you're this all knowing person that's going to tell people how to live their life, but there are values and principles and general things that I think can be brought forth and I was just curious like through the lens of who you are and what you've experienced, you know, what is your message? Speaker B 01:16:01.390 - 01:18:37.490 I would have so many messages for men specifically. And I think the one that just comes to immediacy is you don't need to overcompensate, you don't need to be bigger or better than you are. You just need to be you. And you don't need to be bigger and better than you are to compensate for not feeling enough or trying to prove something unconsciously to your dad or to the world. And you can still create amazing things. You can still be resilient, you can still be strong, you can still be all the, all the things, the virtues, characteristics, expressions that you value. You can be those things. But not coming from a place of overcompensation because it only comes with tragedy. It's coupled with tragedy, right? It's coupled with a sense of a loss of self. It's coupled with hurting other people. It's coupled with being hyper competitive, being, you know, shutting people out, hurting other people and not, and eventually not caring because you do it enough and enough enough because you keep running from these very sensitive parts of yourself. Like it's okay to be sensitive at times with yourself, with the world, with nature, with the right quote, unquote, right people. It's. And it's also necessary to be fucking strong and resilient and be tough and don't be afraid of your own strength and don't be afraid to do hard things and you know, challenge yourself. But don't let it come consistently from a place of overcompensation, of you're not enough. Do it from a place of curiosity and do it from a place of this is part of what it is to be a man. And again like, more importantly, you know, you discover and you decide what, what it means to be a man. So that's what I would just sort of if I were to package it up is what I would say to men and to women, I would say again, the first thing that comes to me is as difficult as it can be, focus on healing the wound with the masculine. Like healing the. Not. Not to say you don't have a sister wound or you don't have wounds with women because so many women that I work with, with have, have had very difficult experiences with their mothers, you know, and that has shaped their relationship and their ability to trust other women actually. But I would say like really, really come to peace with, with trusting men and trusting the masculine that lives within you and the masculine that's outside of you. It will go such a very long way not only for your own life, but for our humanity. And again, I mean to put any pressure on women, of course, okay, it's. Men have to definitely do their work as well. Some of that is what I just mentioned. But healing that wound with a masculine really matters. Speaker A 01:18:39.890 - 01:18:51.560 Well said, man. Bro, we really appreciate your time so much. What would you like to share with our audience in terms of, you know, being able to connect with you on a deeper level should they feel called to do so? Speaker B 01:18:53.390 - 01:20:16.480 Yeah, you can, you can find me on, on socials at Stefanos Sifandos if you want to work with me in a one on one capacity. I've been working with high performers, high achievers, military personnel, you know, athletes, world champion fighters, etc, CEOs, leaders, people from all walks of life for, you know, over two decades and really helping them, you know, get, get truly happy beyond their stuff, beyond their wealth, beyond, beyond the just, you know, their, their material possession, so to speak and find real deep success within. Coachwithsteph.com is the direct URL for that. I mean you'll find everything there. My book is coming out February 6th with Hay House, two books with them. Yeah, so you can, you can find that at. Oh, let me give you the link very quickly for that. Cool, cool. We'll pop it all in the show notes anyway. Yeah, yeah, the, the, that will, that will be. You have availability for that as well. And then yeah, there's a couple of programs that I have on at the moment. It's one of them is called Decode the Masculine and that's for women. I, I run that with a friend of mine and a dear brother. I've known him for seven years. One of the first men I met here in, in the US Joshua and he's a coach in the space as well. And yeah, I'll give you all, provide you all those links too. Speaker A 01:20:16.560 - 01:20:19.200 Cool, man. What's the focus of the first book coming out? Speaker B 01:20:21.520 - 01:20:50.480 Two focuses. One is providing people with tools and insight into how to really begin to heal themselves in deeper ways and really addressing their traumatic history. That shift shapes their adult life. And once you sort of get to that base level, the. The vehicle that is intimate relationship and what that actually offers you and why that's so important and why that's actually a direct pathway to God. It's the second half of the book. Yeah. Speaker C 01:20:50.480 - 01:20:53.440 That's great, man. Yeah. Looking forward to it coming out for sure. Speaker A 01:20:53.440 - 01:20:58.080 Thank you, dude. Thanks once again, everyone else. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.