Xavier Dagba The Alchemy of Integration

(0:00 - 0:09) Coming up in this episode. We have a work cut out for us as men during these times. I am building a different kind of strength that was emotional strength. (0:10 - 0:19) It is a different kind of warriorship that is needed. Heart warriorship. It is no longer about the warrior who has the heart shut down. (0:19 - 0:39) It is actually becoming the warrior who protects the open heart. I can relate to my own urges and impulses. I can pay attention to all the ways I am often attempting to discharge my pain through sex, through porn, and I am no longer using these pathways as a way to discharge pain. (0:40 - 0:52) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to Here for the Truth. I'm Joel Rafiti. (0:53 - 1:07) Got Yerasimos with me as always. Thank you so much for being here. What makes this community so special is your willingness to engage with depth and nuance, the hunger for substance over soundbites, integration over bypassing. (1:07 - 1:32) And I think that's why Xavier's previous conversation with us resonated so deeply and why we were so excited to bring him back. Today, we're diving into fatherhood as a catalyst for growth, balancing masculine energy with emotional expression, navigating relational conflicts and the art of repair, and what it really means to be a heart-sensitive man, strength that protects with an open heart. This conversation cuts through the noise. (1:33 - 1:48) Xavier brings his heart and wisdom. From standing in the fire of his own contradictions, you'll experience what integration actually looks like in practice, not just in theory, and how to transform shadows into strength. Now, we know you're not here for watered-down wisdom. (1:48 - 2:06) You guys have the capacity for nuance and the ability to hold contradictions, and this conversation definitely honors that capacity. Exploring the messy truth that sovereignty requires both strength and vulnerability. What makes conversations with Xavier, in my opinion, so powerful is his refusal to offer shortcuts or hollow truths. (2:07 - 2:32) He's one of those people who really stand at the rare intersection of spiritual depth and lived experience, where wisdom isn't just talked about, but genuinely embodied, and you're going to definitely feel that from him. Today's dialogue might challenge you, it'll definitely inspire you, and it will remind you of what's possible when we have the courage to integrate rather than avoid. So, get ready for this conversation that definitely does more than inform. (2:32 - 2:52) It absolutely transforms. Here is Xavier Dagbar on Here for the Truth for his second appearance. Xavier Dagbar is a spiritual guide and shadow work practitioner whose profound personal journey from academic economics to spiritual awakenings embodies the transformative power of embracing one's authentic past. (2:53 - 3:23) After leaving his PhD program, walking away from security and expectations, Xavier navigated the challenging terrain of family estrangement, identity crisis, and what he calls shadow careers before surrendering to his true calling. Today, Xavier helps others resolve inner conflicts and emotional obstacles that block their ability to thrive in relationships and in purpose. His approach bridges spiritual wisdom and practical transformation guided by a deep personal relationship with the divine and intuitive knowing. (3:24 - 3:37) Xavier last joined us nearly two years ago for episode 69, which became one of our most well-received episodes ever. I definitely recommend people tune into that for some super powerful transmissions. Now, he returns. (3:37 - 3:54) He has his forthcoming book, Scars of Gold, to be published later this year, which distills his philosophy that our deepest wounds, when properly integrated, become our most beautiful strengths, turning scars into gold through the alchemy of shadow work. It's so good to see you again, man. Welcome back to Heal for the Truth. (3:54 - 4:06) Man, are you talking about me there? I'm like, Jesus Christ, who is this guy talking about? You make me sound... Now I got to live up to expectations. Oh, man. I think you live up to that, man. (4:06 - 4:10) I think you live up to that, man. You inspire a lot of people. I couldn't do it justice if I tried. (4:10 - 4:13) I feel like that still fell short. Yeah. Oh, my. (4:13 - 4:27) Okay. I'll do my best. So, I mean, I guess what's been happening in the past two years, man? I mean, what kind of personal growth have you experienced? It's been a wild trip for us, personally. (4:27 - 4:43) So I'm just wondering how you've been navigating and evolving. I can't believe it's been two years. The last two years, are we talking 2023, 2024? You know, there was just like... First, we had moved to this part of Canada. (4:43 - 5:03) We are now living in Newfoundland. It's a little bit more remote. We moved here in 2021, but I really feel like in 2023, we started growing more roots over here, looking for our own tribe, creating community. (5:03 - 5:14) And also, you know, deep into parenting. We have three kids and the last one was born in 2021. And they were born like one year after the other. (5:14 - 5:38) So it was just like finding myself into parenthood, into fatherhood, and also doing the best I can to remain committed to my work. During all of that time, I had many, even publishing companies reaching out to me wanting to write a book. And I just didn't have the capacity for a long time. (5:39 - 5:59) Between 2021 and I would say 2023, I had many, I think it was total of four companies, four publishing companies reaching out. They're like, there's a book to be written here. And I was like, yeah, bro, I just don't have the energy to finance that so far. (6:00 - 6:44) And in 2023, it was that shift where I was like, okay, my friend, we are stepping out of the... You know, when COVID and all of that happened, there was just this movement of cocooning a little bit, making sure that all my energy goes towards making sure that the family is okay and all of these different things. And 2023, for me at the very least, was a little bit of a shift in terms of, okay, let's start venturing again a little bit. And I'm still in that phase where I am beginning to venture again, to create more freely instead of just coasting. (6:44 - 6:50) There was a little bit of that happening at that time. Cool, man. How many kids do you have? Three. (6:51 - 6:56) Three. Nice. Same. Me too. My last one was born last December. I want to ask you this. (6:57 - 7:26) Thank you so much, bro. Thank you. How does the family feed your personal evolutionary process? Wow. I don't know if I would be even committed to this work without them because when it started, I think when we conceived our first son, it was 2018. It was that phase where I was in transition. I was shutting down the gym and we were just clearing a whole bunch of shit and mess and financial mess. (7:27 - 7:45) And then boom, in April, Rene, which we are actually just getting married this year because we wanted to get married in 2020, but my parents couldn't fly here. So that never happens. And that lasted for several years. (7:45 - 8:03) So it's only now that we're getting married. But in 2018, she tells me, hey, we're expecting. And there was just like this click going on that was like, hey, I am not going to be the example of a dad who is not going to be devoted to his path and his mission because I've seen that. (8:03 - 8:20) I've seen my dad sacrifice the things that he genuinely deeply wanted to do for family. And I am grateful because I understand that that's how he felt like he could take care of his family. But I saw a man who wanted to be a musician, an athlete and all these different things. (8:20 - 8:33) He just like dropped it all to be there for his family. And I've also seen that I've seen that wound of sacrifice. And I was just like, yeah, the man was sad. (8:33 - 8:53) It was, I saw that sadness in his eyes, even when we would take some of his tracks and sing to his music, we could tell that he always, it's still going to be a big regret in his life. I was just like, no, that's not going to be me. So as imperfectly as possible, I'm going to give a chance to this path that I want to pursue. (8:54 - 9:21) So it started there, starting to feed this kind of fire. And it just took on from there. But now it's like, what does it look like for me to be the most integrated husband, father that I can? Because through the journey of parenting, if I mean, you have kids, you know that sometimes your kids can trigger your own shit left, right and center. (9:22 - 9:42) So sometimes it comes up and you're like, okay, good. How can I practice being loving in this moment? And that loving doesn't mean disowning my masculine nature, disowning as well. Doing what is, you know, there's a difference between being a pleaser parent and being a loving parent. (9:43 - 10:16) And that difference that I think every single person gets to find what it means for them. But my devotion right now is continuously going back to, what does it look like for me to be an integrated lover to Renee? What does it look like to be an integrated dad to my children? And what does it look like as I'm devoted to all of that to keep showing up in my work and to also keep challenging myself in my work so that they don't see me also settling in any way, shape or form. So these are my current challenges there. (10:16 - 10:32) Yeah, man. Xavier, I want to ask you, because I think very often, you know, when we go down this path of personal transformation and growth, sometimes we can adopt this like, oh, I've done the work, you know, I've done work and I know things. Again, kids come along and I'm not a parent yet. (10:32 - 10:49) And so what were the more specific things where you're like, oh shit, like I thought I had this figured out, but this kid is kind of highlighting something in me, like potentially like impatience or whatever the thing that comes up. So I'm just curious if you want to get a little more personal around that. Yeah. (10:49 - 11:04) I mean, part of me, I was expecting to be challenged. Like I just knew it was coming with the territory. So, and that's also, you know, Renee was after me for a few years to be like, hey, I'm ready to have kids. (11:05 - 11:09) What do you say? And blah, blah. I'm just like, get out of here. You're not ready to have kids. (11:09 - 11:18) You know, we got some work to do because when these kids come, they're like a wrecking ball. They are teachers on their own. So I was expecting to be challenged. (11:19 - 11:40) And, you know, I've been challenged sometimes more than what I expected, which is, hey, you know what? That repressed sadness that you had, there is more way that came from. When I would see my son being in distress and all of that, and I'm just like, okay, damn it. Okay, I guess I'm going to have to sit with some of that too. (11:41 - 12:06) And also the triggers that would come around, you know, some things that were so important in my family growing up, like respectful elders and things like that, that are not necessarily a big part of the culture here. And that I had to be like, hey, you know what? This is meaningful to me. Even with Renee and the way we are parenting. (12:07 - 12:25) And I'm like, we're going to have to find intersections in the ways we are parenting because she's, you know, born and raised in Canada. I was born and raised in Cameroon from a very much like African mentality where there are some values. There are, you know, there are some quote unquote rules. (12:25 - 12:37) There is like some specific relationship to elders that need to be, you know, honored type thing. And also- You had the FIFO rule, fuck around and find out. Absolutely. (12:37 - 12:46) You know, I received my fair share of beatings when I was a kid. I hear you, man. Me too, man, me too. (12:46 - 12:50) I had a Greek dad, you know, a little bit more. Yeah. I understand. (12:50 - 13:12) Yeah, like I can't count the amount of slap that I got. And, you know, as a kid, you also get better at like blocking the slaps, you know, you kind of sense that when the next one is coming and you just go like that. Anyways, so it was really working with how much conditioning you swallow without even being aware of that. (13:12 - 13:30) And I've had to see the authoritarian inside of me, the disciplinarian inside of me and all the different aspects of me. I was just like, holy shit, this tiny three-year-old is triggering the shit out of me right now. And it's pointing at an aspect of me that I get to learn to love. (13:30 - 13:40) So all of that, of course, it keeps happening. And my practice is just, okay, let me learn how to bring my awareness to this. And let me learn how to love this. (13:41 - 14:21) And now let me ask myself, how can I actually educate, you know, the kid here right now, instead of just being triggered or angry or reactionary? How can I educate in that moment? How can I become a leader in that moment? The theme of leadership has been very present for me lately. How can I lead? How can I teach here? Instead of just being triggered, reactive, offended and kind of show up from that place, I wanna lead these kids. And I also, in the whole conversation, wanna build the capacity to tune into their own inner knowingness, which they are just kids now. (14:21 - 14:30) So it's already there, but I still wanna nurture that, you know? Yeah. Oh, for sure, man. So, so deeply resonant, for sure. (14:30 - 14:59) And like one of my kids in particular, I just have this deeper sense that she's exactly like I was, even though I don't, you know, vividly remember it. I just get the feeling like pushes the line every single time, you know, pushes the status quo. She recognizes what triggers us and then intention like prods and pokes and just wants to see what are the confines? What are my confines here? Where's the limit of my kind of edge, you know? So it's very, very interesting to observe and observing their own visceral reactions within myself. (14:59 - 15:14) Like, what's that rooted in? Like, why is that bringing up something so freaking strong in me is a very, very interesting process for sure, for sure. Yeah. Also, oh, are you gonna say something, Xavier? No, no, you go ahead. (15:14 - 15:35) Well, I was just curious because you talked about, you know, you come from a land of like, and I think many of us do, like respect for elders and be a little bit more civilized and things of that nature. And like, how do you find that balance? Because, you know, we've had this conversation before on this show, especially when we talk about different forms of schooling or even parenting. And it's like, you want your kid to be free and open. (15:35 - 16:10) And yet, how do you also find that balance of like, I don't want them to be 100% feral and have some understanding of the world and the culture and have respect and to look people in the eye and things like that. Like, is that something that you, like, how do you integrate where you don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but you take the gold from how you were raised, as opposed to just completely going to the direct opposite? Oh, yeah, definitely. I'm not one to kind of like just pendulum swing, you know, and Renee knows that because we often have reactive parenting to the parenting that we've received. (16:11 - 16:15) Many people are stuck in there. Oh, my parents were hard. I'm gonna be gentle. (16:15 - 17:03) And so many people that are going in the direction of gentle parenting are sometimes kind of like reactionary to the more strict parenting that they received, even though there might be some values in the parenting that they received that were also kind of like needed and important. So the difficult thing to do is for people to just ask themselves, what was the value that my parents attempted to transmit to me, but maybe they did a poor job of it, or maybe the rebel inside of me just tried to push against. What was in there? What was the value? And it will require that you clean your own shit with your own parents, with your own family of origin. (17:03 - 17:49) It will require that you look at some of your own pain in there for you to be like, when my father was this challenging and strict at times or disciplinarian, what is in there that he was attempting to transmit to me as a value? What was the value in there? And of course, I'm not talking about, there are the extremes of that. I'm not talking about receiving abuse and stuff like that. But one thing that I've seen is, first, in all kids, to do the very best we can to be clear on what precisely is not okay with their specific behavior. (17:50 - 18:20) Without doing too much of, I dislike therapizing young kids. Because self-consciousness at a very young age can make them anxious. It can make them extremely anxious because they are constantly kind of like, what am I doing wrong? I also don't want that to be a part of the blueprint. (18:21 - 18:39) So what I've seen is natural consequences go a really long way, especially when it comes with young kids. Like a natural consequence to maybe them being a little too rough. And I'm like, yeah, you know what? We're going to have to stop it. (18:40 - 18:45) If this happens again, we're going to have to stop the game. Or something like that. Natural consequences. (18:46 - 18:59) I mean, I don't necessarily have the problem with the roughness because with me, they can push a little bit the boundaries of their roughness. It's like, I welcome rough play. You know, as long as no one gets hurt, I welcome it. (18:59 - 19:11) I've seen that natural consequences with my children, for example, which is also what life in general is going to give them. You go out there, you don't treat somebody right. There's going to be a natural consequence. (19:12 - 19:29) You go out there, you're showing up in a way that causes harm to somebody. There's going to be a natural consequence. So, and when necessary, we make a point to sometimes explain a little bit, you know, why that is happening. (19:29 - 19:47) But I've seen that kids are not stupid. And sometimes kids are just young enough and they lack impulse control. But at a certain age, when they start building their kind of like prefrontal cortex and they have a little bit more control of their impulses, they are very smart usually. (19:48 - 20:01) And I think the kids nowadays, they are just craving real authentic leadership. They don't want to be pleased. And I think many millennial generations are going to have a different problem growing up. (20:02 - 20:27) Many millennials right now, the problem that they have with the boomers or the Gen Xers is usually that you guys were a little bit too, you repressed us too much. Like we weren't able to express things and all of that. I think that's the problem that some current generations have with like the boomers and the ones above. (20:27 - 20:47) But I really feel like the younger generations with the millennials, they're going to have a different problem, which is you over-parented us. You didn't, you made it way too safe or you didn't want to. I think some people might have. (20:48 - 21:05) Yeah, almost like you tried to be too much of my friend rather than my parents. Yes, I needed leadership and you wanted to please me. You know, I really feel like for parents right now, it's really navigating, finding their own way of like, I'm here to lead you. (21:05 - 21:22) I am here to parent and I am not here to please you, which might be hard to hear for some parents. But I really feel like trying to become a pleaser parent is usually a trauma response. And it's some of the, I don't know. (21:22 - 21:46) I'm not sure if it's the most appropriate way of parenting at this time. Yeah, it's like, I think even we talked about in our last conversation is like the ability to stand between opposites and to understand there's a time and a place to be a certain way. And so almost like that middle way, that middle path and how do you choose? You know, there might be a time to be a little bit more gentle and then there's a time where it's like a stronger boundary needs to be set. (21:46 - 21:54) But again, I think it's up to the parent and the individual to be able to hold that within themselves and model that for their children. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. (21:54 - 22:02) Now, a short break from the episode. Truth arrives with thorns and occasionally a good laugh. Let's face it. (22:03 - 22:14) This current world is obsessed with comfortable numbness. So finding people who are both aware and fun to be around kind of feels like stumbling upon buried treasure. That's exactly why we created Friends of the Truth. (22:14 - 22:27) This is a rare space where deep conversations and belly laughs do coexist. Where topics like Germany medicine, meets meme exchanges. Where astrology readings turn to oh shit, that's why I do that moments. (22:27 - 22:52) For $17 monthly, you get access to our vault of over 100 exclusive videos that won't just expand your mind but actually change how you move through life. Plus a Telegram community where you can post your 3am revelations and someone will actually get it. Five live calls every month, real questions, real answers, no spiritual bypassing, no toxic positivity, just authentic humans figuring it out together. (22:53 - 23:07) Because truth doesn't have to be serious to be profound. You can visit hereforthetruth.com forward slash F O T T. Find your people and maybe have a damn good time doing it too. Back to the episode. (23:08 - 23:24) Can you speak into the importance of like a man knowing his mission and being on purpose in terms of, you know, even the imprints on the children, etc. And on the relationship. If a man doesn't know his purpose and isn't on mission. (23:25 - 23:49) Yeah. You know, I think that in the times that we are navigating, it is going to become increasingly important. I think the templates of manhood and masculinity that we've been given are not necessarily keeping up with the times that we are navigating at the moment. (23:49 - 24:20) Like for sure there is. It is necessary to be in touch with your masculine energy, even your masculine power and all of that. And with that said, I really feel like we are evolving into this place where as a man providing and protecting is, I know this may sound difficult for many men listening to this, providing and protecting is no longer enough. (24:21 - 24:30) The baseline. The baseline is no longer enough. And I know, I am very intimate with the burden of men. (24:30 - 24:45) I know what it feels like as a man to be like, I am not enough already. It's like life in general is asking of me, or even women at times are asking way too much right now. Many men are experiencing that. (24:45 - 24:59) The world around us is just way too demanding at the moment. So I just want to acknowledge that for a hot second. I know there are some unique frictions that men get to deal with. (25:00 - 25:10) But I really feel like a man in line with his heart is what the world at large craves. A man in touch with his heart. And that's how I perceive being on purpose. (25:11 - 25:32) It's not necessarily going out there and like, I don't know, starting a coaching business or becoming an influencer on the internet or whatever else. But it's just a place where a man can genuinely express this energy within men that we have. It's like we need a mountain to climb. (25:33 - 25:48) But the mountain is no longer to go out there and to conquer another country. Or it's no longer to go out there and fight a battle on the battlefield. I think the old archetypes of the warrior are dying. (25:49 - 26:10) And there are unfortunately some, and I would say some dark forces out there trying to keep these old archetypes alive, you know, trying to send people to die on battlefields and stuff like that. I think we are, we're going to outgrow it. And we are in that friction where sometimes it might still be needed for a little while. (26:10 - 26:51) But now there is another kind of warriorship, a warrior of consciousness where instead of shutting down your heart, you fight to keep it open regardless of what life is bringing at you. A man that is not in tune with that energy is a depressed man, is a man that will flirt with suicidal ideation at some point because life feels empty. And I've seen many men great at providing, great at, you know, being there for their, you know, providing the basics, home security and whatever. (26:51 - 27:17) And at some point taking their lives because there is something missing, either there is pain they are running from or there is purpose that they don't know how to express. So I think more than ever before, it is going to be so important for men to become integrated and to be open-hearted and to allow themselves to operate from that place, to create from that place. Yeah, yeah. (27:17 - 27:35) It's like early, early on in my relationship, like I used to, I feel that, like I used to think that providing and protecting was enough and it meant that I couldn't receive any shit. There's nothing that you could say to me because I did my job and because I met what needed to be met on that front. It's definitely been a growth process. (27:35 - 27:48) You know, again, the realization and the energy of the last, you know, I would say, five to seven years has been, yeah, that's just the baseline now. We need connection. We need integration more than ever. (27:48 - 28:59) And you've kind of done it on a basic level, but I'm wondering if you can like paint a broader picture of what a heart-led man looks like or a man that is connected to his heart. How does that look like in reality? Yeah, I will expand on the provision because, you know, maybe instead of just like confining provision, we can extend into what does that actually look like? Because I think more than just providing at the treaty level, which is, you know, shelter and protection and stuff like that. I really feel like there is emotional provision that is kind of required in the sense of, can I actually make room in this space for everything to be expressed in pure honesty? Let's say if I have a partner, if I have a wife, a girlfriend, can I also be the space where these people feel more and more safe to express more of their fullness? Because that emotional safety, I don't think men realize enough how much they have the power to create that. (29:00 - 29:08) That's how they feel the most protected, I feel like, or the most safe is when they have that, when they have that emotional provision. That's what I've found. Yeah, absolutely. (29:09 - 29:22) And I don't think men have realized enough how I see that within myself. I can come out of a call, you know, or I work from home. My office is in, you know, the lower level of our house. (29:22 - 29:35) Usually the kids are playing out there and I can come out of a call that was intense, you know, with clients and like holding space for things or like facilitating some work. And sometimes it shifts a little bit your energy. You have to readjust. (29:36 - 30:14) And I can notice sometimes I will come up, if I am all jolly and everything, it's like the kids are, like I will lighten the mood, you know, it's like ground and lighten, and lighten the mood. And if I come up and being a little heavy, especially my daughter, she'll look at me, she'll be like, Daddy, why you have the eyebrows on? Because when I'm too serious or when something got unsettling or whatever, I have a hard time hiding how I'm feeling. So they will see that all over my face. (30:15 - 30:29) Same thing with Renee. She's going to sense when something is not all right. And, you know, she may not necessarily need for me to tell her the fullness of what is going on and the intricacies of what is going on. (30:29 - 31:10) But sometimes what she needs to hear is that I am aware that something is disrupting my energy and that I have it down, that I'm working on it, or that I know, you know, it's like she understands that maybe she doesn't get to be the person that will necessarily hear or help me move through everything that I have to carry. But my way of providing safety is sometimes just saying, yeah, there was just like something upsetting or challenging or whatever that just happened with work. And I'm working on this. (31:11 - 31:26) So I got it down or whatever, or I'm going to meet this mentor that I'm working with. And, you know, it's like, there's no problem. She just needs to know that you have awareness around it and that it's not just something that is like, it's going to end up projecting onto the family when you walk out of your office. (31:27 - 31:48) Absolutely. And that's a key, important part. And also she also needs to know if there is something that I want to express to her and that she needs to be aware of, that I'm going to express it, you know, and that she's not going to be there while I feel some anger and resentment towards her. (31:48 - 32:13) Or, yeah, I think that's important for men to be in this space where they are like, we are more and more able to provide that kind of emotional safety. Yeah, you know, you make a good distinction there because I think sometimes when someone here is heart centered, they may think like overly emotional and having to share everything with their partner. But it's like, but it's not that. (32:13 - 32:23) It's understanding that you have this container and you're, I guess, I wouldn't say setting a boundary, but you're just communicating like, hey, I got this. There's some things I'm going with. I'm going through. (32:23 - 32:27) And, you know, there's nothing really to worry about, as opposed to like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Nothing's wrong with me. (32:27 - 32:40) Sometimes I've found that oversharing actually reduces safety because there's things that she doesn't need to hear and doesn't need to carry and doesn't need to have in the back of her mind. And I only have girls in my house. I've got three daughters. (32:40 - 32:50) So, you know, that's been reinforced through that as well. Yeah, absolutely. I've seen some instances because I can be crudely transparent at times. (32:51 - 33:11) I get it. And sometimes, you know, she's given me the feedback of like, damn it, you, it's like, I'll tell, if I tell it like it is, I usually tell it like it is. And we've had moments where she literally said, sometimes I wish you would just not say it. (33:11 - 33:36) Or sometimes, you know, I wish you would just like, um, I mean, she sometimes said, sometimes I wish you would just lie to me about the specific thing. Like, well, you wanted to know, now you know. But what you're getting at is really the, I think some people don't necessarily realize how sensitive men are. (33:38 - 34:00) And I'm weighing my words as I'm saying that. All men I've met, even the most alpha ever that I've met, have a degree of like, there's a unique way we read reality that is different. But that is also in its own way, very much attuned. (34:00 - 34:18) It's like we look for coherence and congruence in the way we analyze reality. And everything that is like out of coherence or out of congruence, and that is like kind of weird energy. Like we have a capacity to kind of see that in a different way than women would see it. (34:18 - 34:48) But we kind of have a capacity to kind of like to read some broad patterns and to be able to know how to operate within that reality. So I've sometimes seen things that I would tell Rene, just like, well, I think this thing is going on within herself or within me, or even when I observe some dynamics that she might have with a friend. I'm just like, have you noticed how your voice just changed there? Like when you are with this person, your voice has a different pitch. (34:48 - 34:55) The pitch is completely different. And she was like, I've never heard of that. I'm like, well, pay attention. (34:56 - 35:20) And but yeah, I just think offering that emotional safety, also practicing expression has been a traditionally hard thing for men to just practice how to express what is going on for us. And it doesn't need to be the same. That expression doesn't need to mirror the same way women would express themselves. (35:21 - 35:29) But to a certain degree, to be able to offer emotional reassurance is a big deal. It's really a big deal. Yeah, for sure. (35:30 - 35:44) I want to provide a specific example that I've observed in my personal experience. Like, for example, if I'm feeling financial insecurity, that's not a place for my wife. I don't want to engage in that because I've seen the way that affects my household. (35:45 - 36:08) If I try to pass that energy on, and I've found, I know it's going to be OK through holding it, through figuring it out, through holding the line when I'm with my family, if I'm experiencing some of that kind of turbulence has proven to be beneficial. I just want to set a clear example in my personal experience that that's one thing that I feel like doesn't serve the family to be transferred to the women. Yeah, absolutely. (36:08 - 36:25) And, you know, the same way the way we are a family set up is we are, you know, I am the one, I hold the financial responsibility for our family. We are homeschooling. So Rene is in charge of most of the homeschooling. (36:25 - 36:46) So, and I've seen definitely that when it comes to holding the line at that level, it is a responsibility that I'm carrying. And sometimes I'll just do, I'll just name that, you know what I'm going through? I'm going through maybe a launch. I'm going through a phase where I'm going to a lot more of my focus is going to be needed here. (36:46 - 37:02) And I just need you to know so that you don't assume that there's something else wrong or there's something not all right or whatever. And usually that's enough to just get her to relax and to be like, OK, let me just take a breath here. Yeah, for sure. (37:02 - 37:26) Now, let me ask you this, Xavier. I mean, this is for us all to kind of discuss like repression ultimately probably is the enemy. And so like for some of the stuff that maybe we wouldn't share in detail with our partners, our wives, our girlfriends, like having other men that you respect in your life to go to and talk with, is this something that you would recommend? Oh, I would say it's a cornerstone. (37:26 - 37:54) And the thing is for men, there is one thing that we have to learn to undo is for the longest time, men have internalized that their sensitivity is not safe with other men, especially the, you know, the shadowy versions of masculinity, where it's just like pure kind of like competition type thing. And I'm not saying that there is no such thing as healthy competition, because that's also how men evolve. We kind of like push each other. (37:55 - 38:09) We kind of like, you know, we're going to call a bullshit like very much straightforward. But instead of like calling a bullshit in a bullying way, which is as, you know, growing up, that's what we kind of did. There was just a lot of bullying. (38:09 - 38:29) I experienced a lot of bullying, you know, from other from other boys growing up. So it's like everything within me that was a little bit more sensitive, a little bit more emotional. Like all the feminine, most of the feminine traits within men did not necessarily feel safe in circles of men. (38:30 - 38:43) So meaning the emotional issues that you're dealing with. The hardship you're dealing with. Most men didn't necessarily feel like, oh, I can actually bring that in other circles of men. (38:43 - 39:10) And that is changing. But really having spaces where you where you can bring the tender parts within you and not necessarily in a victimized way, but just to there is something sacred about brotherhood when it's really there. Like when you have brothers that will really see you and who will not just see you, but reflect your strength, because men do not necessarily want to be validated and coddled and all of that. (39:10 - 39:23) But they want their strength to be reflected to them. And I think that's a big, important part of the masculine psyche. So I definitely have a mentor that I've been working with for a while. (39:23 - 39:36) And every single, I meet with him once a month and we've been keeping that for a long time, even when I don't feel like I need to. It's just for me, a rendezvous that I need to make. It's a mirror. (39:36 - 39:44) I need to make sure it's there. So we talk about everything from work to my relationship, to everything. I can just be like, and he's an old man. (39:45 - 40:03) He's 77 right now. And I can just be like, well, this is going on. And he has a way of bringing clarity or just asking questions that will allow me to see myself and to get out of the drama a little bit. (40:03 - 40:21) So it has been pivotal for me. I couldn't agree more. It's so important as a man, especially in the dynamics that we've spoken about with refraining some capacity to be able to have that outlet and have that cornerstone, as you called it, of a safe brother. (40:22 - 40:52) And in many ways, Erasmus has been, well, I wouldn't say the first emotionally safe friend, but the largest capacity of emotional safety. And that's transformed my life, my relationship, everything, just in being able to have that conversation and go to someone who you can actually properly fucking trust, right? And there's never a doubt, never a question, never in anything. It's like you have your own sacred space with your bro. (40:53 - 41:02) And that's monumental in a personal journey, I think. Yeah, I was going to highlight that too. I mean, we're blessed in that sense that we get to work together. (41:02 - 41:14) And so we have those moments to drop in. But just as a general thing, like I think about in my life, we have all these mental looping thoughts and we're white knuckling it. I feel like men white knuckle their shit. (41:14 - 41:20) And they get to this point where certain parts kind of take over. And it's like, I got to blow up my relationship. I got to blow up my life. (41:20 - 41:31) I got to change everything. And then a simple, like for me, let me make it personal. If I was having issues with my wife or grappling with old patterns, and then I get on the phone with a friend of mine and I just voice them. (41:31 - 41:41) And then I get off the phone call and I'm like, oh, that just went down about 50%. All that mental noise, like all I needed to do was to speak it out loud. And I feel so much better. (41:41 - 41:49) And I care about myself more. I feel more connected to my wife all because I had somewhere to go to be real. Yeah, absolutely. (41:50 - 42:06) Yeah, and sometimes as you do that, even as you're naming that, you witness yourself in your delivery. I've had countless moments where I was getting frustrated in my relationship and airing it out with my mentor. And I just bring it up. (42:07 - 42:25) And as I'm speaking, I witnessed myself being protective of her. And just like, oh, I witnessed myself balancing myself to a certain degree. And sometimes he would call me out and being like, well, I don't feel like you're giving me the intensity of how angry you were at the beginning. (42:25 - 42:32) So give it all out. You know, she's not here in this moment. Allow it to be voice. (42:32 - 42:58) I'm not going to let you kind of like turn her into some form of like demon or whatever. But there is definitely some anger within you sometimes that needs to be met or some hurt that needs to be met. And through that, through that, there's just more capacity to just make peace with yourself and to make more peace, more room for love and to sometimes also be easier to love. (42:58 - 43:32) Because I think as men, we might not necessarily know to invite love and sometimes even how to receive that. Yeah. In that process of, I guess, airing it out regarding your relationship with a mentor, like, is there ever like a part that comes in as like, oh, am I betraying my wife in this moment? Well, when the container is properly created and when the person that you are speaking to knows, this is my perception of what is going on. (43:32 - 43:48) I think we need places. And this is also, OK, there are many things that want to come all at once right now. Men have this protective energy where you can be angry at somebody you love and still want to protect her, which is normal. (43:48 - 44:30) You're angry at your wife and you still want to protect her and you don't want to paint her in a negative way and you don't want to say things that may cause her to be perceived as maybe, you know, in a bad way by somebody else. But when you're working with someone who is skillful at what they do and who understands, OK, I'm only receiving Xavier's perspective in this specific situation and it is not fully informing me on the character of Renee. Therefore, I'm just going to take what he's sharing with me and I am going to help him see himself or I'm going to help him kind of reconcile with what needs to be reconciled here. (44:30 - 44:49) I think it's meaningful and necessary. And at the same time, I wouldn't have the same conversation with just somebody else that will just kind of like fuel the flame of separation and divide. I wouldn't have the same conversation with somebody that I feel like is a little less heart-centered. (44:50 - 45:13) And I think sometimes for many relationships, some of the most hurtful things that you can do if you really care about a relationship, it is to open up fully about the inner dynamics of the relationship to somebody who is not operating from a heart-centered place. Yeah, you have to have discernment. Like you have to know who you can open up to. (45:13 - 45:32) And also like a person that doesn't maybe understand the complexity of the human psyche. And like, again, like the duality in many ways that exists within, like you said, I could be so fucking annoyed with my partner and yet at the same time, I want to protect her or it's just an aspect of me that might need to be voiced. Because again, so often we just, no, no, that's bad. (45:32 - 45:41) That's mean. I shouldn't say those things. I shouldn't think those things as opposed to you have a, you know, a bro or a mentor or someone that you can share this stuff to. (45:41 - 45:46) It's not the whole picture. It's just a little slice of it. And again, I just think, I think that's important. (45:46 - 45:57) Again, it's like someone's listening to, they understand that. They go, okay, obviously all of Xavier doesn't think these things about his wife or his children or his business partner or whatever. You know what I mean? Absolutely. (45:58 - 46:31) And also somebody that is able to hold a space to know, hey, in this moment, this dude might actually be projecting. And a person that is willing to be more curious and instead of just like dismissing something as also potential projection and gauge it and being like, okay, what really happened that caused me to perceive the situation this way is? You know, I think finding places like that is really meaningful for men, especially. Yeah, for sure. (46:31 - 46:50) Because like, what's the alternative? What are you going to start? Like maybe like jerking off a little bit more, have a few more drinks, going to go turn to the weed, going to be more absorbed in your phone and that's going to be felt throughout your house as well. You know, like what's the alternative? Yeah, the alternative is you're going to have an avoidance relationship with your own home. Yeah. (46:50 - 47:09) And that's the reason why so many men will often emotionally tap out because they don't want to be fully here. And it's just a life I'm unwilling to live. Like I have, we sometimes had issues that have taken like days, sometimes even weeks to resolve. (47:09 - 47:25) But the commit, and we've had conversations through the night. Sometimes like we start talking at nine and we look at the clock, it's 2 a.m. And then we just like pass out being tired. And then, you know, we find time again to come back to it. (47:25 - 47:38) I think in a relationship that is meaningful enough, the devotion to the connection needs to be paramount. It needs to be paramount. And we've been in a relationship for nearly 11 years now. (47:38 - 47:58) We've changed who we were before the kids and who we are now. It's just like, oh my goodness, completely different people, you know, before and after postpartum, after having three kids, you know. So it's like the devotion to connection needs to be important. (47:58 - 48:05) People get lost in the honeymoon phase. And then we start looking at each other's shadow. And we're like, holy shit. (48:05 - 48:14) No, you're not who I thought you were. But if the love is there, you're like, okay, okay, I see you more clearly. Let me learn how to love more of who you are. (48:15 - 48:30) And let's learn how to do that for each other. But when the commitment to the connection is there, it is something that you can go back to and build from there. Even in our parenting styles, where I'm realizing, okay, those are some of our Western values. (48:30 - 48:53) And those are the values from where I'm coming from. But we need to find a way that we need to create her and mine parenting style, not some broad stroke of what she's read in a book there or the dogma that I'm coming from, from where I'm from. But we need to find what works for us to move forward. (48:53 - 49:04) So there is a lot of fine tuning and co-creating, actual co-creating that is needed. Oh, and it's constant. It's constant. (49:04 - 49:09) It never ends. Yeah, man, I hear you. And I think I'm at nine years. (49:10 - 49:39) And over time, I think what's strengthened is just this realization that there's nothing that I value more than that connection. And that my experience in this world, in this body, in this life is just so much better off with that connection intact and with that connection constantly growing and flourishing as opposed to this connection. And like, so all my effort, all doesn't matter what's happening on the surface, sometimes I'm triggered, sometimes I project. (49:40 - 49:47) At the core of it, like every single cell in my being wants to nurture that, not the other way around. Absolutely. Yeah. (49:48 - 50:04) And that's the real deal. At the end of the day, when you go to bed feeling at odds with not just yourself, but the person that you've decided to be committed to, there's something within you that's unsettled. And my commitment is beyond that connection. (50:04 - 50:28) It's also my commitment is to self liberation, which is I don't want to live a life where I'm operating from repressed anger or from resentment or from like, no, I don't want to live a life where I'm operating from that. And if there is one person in my life, that has the power to get me to default to that way of living, I've given them way too much power over me. Therefore, we are going to work this out. (50:28 - 50:43) You know, we're going to figure out a way to work this out. And working this out doesn't necessarily mean, like I am open to the possibility that we might wake up one day and we say, well, this relationship has expired. Even though at this point, it's not a possibility that I would like. (50:43 - 50:59) I am open to that possibility. So I'm not like fighting tooth and nail and willing to abandon myself to kind of like keep the connection or the bonding alive. But it's like, as long as more of who I am is welcomed here, let's go. (51:00 - 51:09) Yeah. As more of who I am is welcomed here, all right, let's keep building. And this is where repression becomes like an enemy in partnership, because people want to keep the peace all the time. (51:09 - 51:25) They don't want to bring up and have those difficult conversations. But like, again, we have to have those conversations and whatever happens, happens. But then the important part is how do you come back afterwards and repair? So I'd love for you to talk more about this kind of concept of repair and partnership and even repair as a parent. (51:26 - 51:42) Yeah. I mean, repair is, you know, it's the welding together two things that were broken. And it's such an important part of the relational container, because the relational container is meant to expand. (51:42 - 51:57) It is meant by default. If it doesn't expand, it means the people in the relationship are not expressing themselves more. It's like we get into this relationship where initially we kind of tiptoe around each other. (51:57 - 52:22) I show you what you like and you show me what I like. And if we fall in love and then we find a baseline of safety and then you show me more of your shadow, I show me more of my shadow and we see if it still works. And we keep individuating within the container, meaning you become this partner in healing where I can get to express more of my brightness and more of my shadow. (52:22 - 52:39) And equally, you get to express more of your brightness and more of your shadow. If a relational container doesn't expand and by expanding, sometimes it cracks, you know, therefore, people are not really expressing themselves fully. So it's normal that it stretches. (52:40 - 52:55) It is normal that it has stretch marks. And it is also normal to kind of like learn how to heal the stretch marks of a relationship. And that's the place where repair is important. (52:56 - 53:41) And I think the main value that I've learned to, and I keep learning to anchor that within myself, it's like humility, which is a big one because we can become self-righteous when we are hurt. We can become so much self-righteous around conflict because at the core of it, conflict is two self-righteous people going like this, you know, and it's like this happened and I want to be right type thing. So what I've learned and what I keep learning and what I keep embracing is just a practice of humility. (53:42 - 53:55) Deepening my practice of humility. And I'm not the best at it, you know, especially if I am convinced that I am seeing things the right way there. And that's a trait within me. (53:56 - 54:10) I have this devotion to truth. And when I kind of feel like, when I feel like I am seeing things right there, oh my God, it's on, it's on. And I may leave it for a while, you know, I may just leave it for a while. (54:10 - 54:16) And if I feel like just for now, it's not going anywhere, but no, no, no, no, no. We're going to come back to it. We're going to come back to it. (54:16 - 54:52) So I've had to learn how to just soften the edges, even when I am so convinced that I am seeing things the right way, quote unquote, whatever that right way is. And that has been a very important thing. And it is also, I think, even in the practice of repair, it has been necessary for us to kind of learn how to air things out imperfectly, to make room for each other to air things out imperfectly. (54:52 - 55:04) Because I also have this aspect of me that loves accuracy. It's like, if she's saying something, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're misrepresenting me or you're miscontrolling things there. (55:04 - 55:08) And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not. I'm just like, OK, bro. (55:08 - 55:19) Yeah. And even like beyond the accuracy, like, why are you communicating it a certain way? You know, it's like it needs to be communicated in a way that like makes me feel held a little bit as well. You know, it's like. (55:19 - 55:31) Yeah. You know, it's like making room for my anger in a way that is not going to. And also kind of like noticing the response of the person. (55:31 - 55:37) It's an attunement. Working through conflict is attunement. That is actually what is going on there. (55:37 - 55:48) We went out of tune. And therefore, we have to learn to attune again, meaning you have to see where I am. I also am open to seeing where you are, even though it's hard in that moment. (55:48 - 56:01) It is especially hard. So it stretches your emotional capacity where I am here holding fire. But I also have to make sure that my fire doesn't burn you, you know, doesn't hurt you. (56:01 - 56:14) And it's like really challenging. It's where our emotional capacity stretches. So there are all the self-righteousness is something that I have to keep in check when there is conflict going on. (56:14 - 56:28) And also my own shame in some situations where I realize, oh, I've been unskillful. I screwed up here and this and this and that. And just like swallowing my pride in some situations to be like, I'm sorry. (56:28 - 56:40) And at the beginning of our relationship, this would take me days to just be like, yeah, I fucked up and I'm sorry. Yeah. You're speaking for all of us, man. (56:40 - 56:45) Yeah. I mean, so much of what you said, I resonate so deeply with. It's pretty amazing. (56:46 - 56:52) I've had to like have like mantras in my head that I just repeat, like, shut up, Yerasimo. Shut up, Yerasimo. Shut up, Yerasimo. (56:52 - 57:00) It's like when it's like, I'm just here to hold space for my wife and listen to her, as opposed to like, I have the solution. I have the solution. I can just tell you the solution. (57:00 - 57:13) I'll tell you the solution if you just listen to me. And it's like, no, I just stay quiet. And so it's like, and there's times in my relationship where I've been there and maybe I've done the best I can to like be with her and I'm not speaking. (57:13 - 57:20) But in my head, I'm reminding myself to not like to not speak. It's helping me. And then the next day or that night, oh, you are so amazing. (57:20 - 57:29) Thank you so much for just being with me and holding space. And the whole time I'm having this war between give her the solution, give her the solution. You know, shut up, be quiet. (57:29 - 57:32) Give her the solution. Shut up, be quiet. And it worked. (57:32 - 57:40) Now, of course, it's more fluid and natural now. But in the beginning, it was like I had to train myself because I could be very defensive. I could be very self-righteous. (57:40 - 57:49) And if I feel like I have the truth, it's like, OK, let me make it very simple for you. I will give you the answer that you need to solve your fucking problems. And we can save both of us a lot of time. (57:50 - 58:00) But again, it's not, that's not the way it works. Yeah. And that is, you know, that's such the story of many men. (58:00 - 58:14) And, you know, in this kind of dynamics, there are also moments where she will come and be like, well, I need your perspective around this. Yes. And these moments, I'm like, all right, since you're asking for it, here it is. (58:15 - 58:34) But I've seen that in a big majority of things, just making room for expression and sometimes imperfect expression. And also creating the container for conflict. Many people don't have it created. (58:34 - 58:45) I have big, massive turn offs when it comes to conflict. Calling each other names is just like a big no-no for me. It's like, I don't care. (58:45 - 58:58) I couldn't give a rat's ass. Like how, you know, irritated you are, we are, and I am. How justified you feel, you know? How, yeah. (58:58 - 59:08) It's like, no, if we are going to do this with the intention to repair, we need to leave the names out. There has to be a baseline of respect. There has to be respect. (59:09 - 59:19) And sometimes there isn't. And then that's a whole other thing you have to navigate and repair and work on. But I just feel like that can disrupt the attunement and the connection when they start throwing names out, like name calling. (59:20 - 59:26) Oh, yeah. So that's a big foundation for me. Just like that, we get to agree on that. (59:27 - 1:00:04) And that's something that we've created. And the other thing is, sometimes with the permission of the other person, just room for conscious rent can also help to just like, even if it's... Because sometimes for men, we have this desire to go ahead and to have things be completely... We need to go linearize them in our mind and get to the bottom of it before we are able to express it. But sometimes, you know, it can take you a little bit of time to just like work your inner world, you know, figure out your internal world. (1:00:05 - 1:00:28) And in the meantime, the other person is sensing, well, there is some agitation or tension and whatever. I've seen that in some relationships, it's sometimes necessary to kind of give something, even if it's just minimal, to be like, I am aware that there is a charge here that I get to look into. I'm not ready yet to fully communicate it to you. (1:00:29 - 1:00:39) It hasn't fully landed on me yet. I'm not able to fully make sense of it yet. Or sometimes what is needed is just to express it imperfectly. (1:00:39 - 1:00:58) It's like, I am under the impression that and then naming it. Every time this and such and such happens, I am under the impression that this and this is going on. And I feel as a response to this, anger, hurt, sadness, whatever it is. (1:00:58 - 1:01:26) And sometimes it is enough to kind of air things out and even to give yourself permission to come back into your body a little bit and not addressing the whole thing from a more mental perspective. It's like every time such and such happens, I am under the impression that this is going on, or I am under the impression that this, or I feel this and it has been very frustrated. And I might need to sit down with it a little bit more to really engage into constructive conversation. (1:01:27 - 1:01:39) But this is going on. I think as men, we get to learn how to be more skillful at navigating our inner landscape. Yeah. (1:01:40 - 1:01:52) Having the space to express things. And I can only say, I think, I mean, it helps for me, but especially for my wife. When we first dated, she had learned something from a teacher. (1:01:52 - 1:02:03) I think her name was Alison Armstrong. And it was a concept called holding the trash. So it's like, I always have like the pretend, like I have a trash bag that I'm shaking out for her. (1:02:03 - 1:02:15) And I'm like, do you want me to hold the trash? I know I'm fine. Do you want me to hold the trash? Usually in the third time I ask it, then it's like it gives her the freedom to just say whatever she wants. And within that context, I'm not allowed to respond. (1:02:16 - 1:02:27) So it's just allowing her to get it out. I mean, she's done it a few times for me, you know, throughout we've been together 10 years. But I feel like it's a tool that I've kind of used more for her to really, you know, express things. (1:02:27 - 1:02:34) And it's been really, really helpful. Yeah. No, no coincidences with this timing of this conversation. (1:02:34 - 1:02:58) I think Venus went into retrograde two days ago, which is all about highlighting the shadow and the drama and the challenges within love lives, within romance, within relationships. I want to actually ask you something because it relates to this idea. Even you said like switching or flipping to the other side, even in like relational dynamics, we're seeing more extreme polarity teachings that are happening right now. (1:02:58 - 1:03:04) And even like people were like, well, yeah, men, they don't have feelings. You can't express your feelings. And I know we touched upon it a little bit. (1:03:04 - 1:03:22) Like there's nuance. Obviously, we don't want to overshare. But like, what are your thoughts on a lot of the other things you're seeing out there that are being shared regarding like masculinity and relational dynamics in that regard? Yeah, I think when evolution happens, we can tend to run back to ancient ways. (1:03:23 - 1:03:45) Of being so I understand some masculinity teachings that are basically attempting to go back to the hard man. And maybe to a certain degree, we also need to reclaim some of the traits there. Because I feel like some of these traits have been, you know, we need to get into a healthier relationship with the hard man. (1:03:45 - 1:04:08) I don't think we need to be hijacked by the hard man. And, you know, it's so all of all of the inner landscape of men, we are invited to have a healthier relationship with all of it. And I think some characters often emerge when we need to resolve our relationship with these characters, with these traits within ourselves. (1:04:08 - 1:04:25) But you're going to see the Andrew Tate's characters emerging. You're going to see some of the softest of the softest men out there. You see the entire spectrum as a way to explore what is the most healthy relationship that I can claim with that. (1:04:25 - 1:04:55) You're going to see the most brutal perpetrators. And you're also going to see the nicest of the nice guys, spiritual flow bro that has completely lost his spine type thing. And the invitation is like, okay, what does it look like for me to be in the appropriate relationship with all of who I am as a man? Meaning my capacity for violence, my capacity for brutality, my capacity to be hard and rigid, my capacity to even be emotional. (1:04:56 - 1:05:24) What does it look like to reclaim myself as a sensitive man? And I'm pretty sure some some guys are going to be listening to this and be like, oh, don't never bring these two words together, like sensitive and men or emotional and man. I'm like, who are you kidding? Usually as children, I have two boys and I have a girl. And my two boys with their mom, they are the most. (1:05:24 - 1:05:45) And sometimes even with me, if I let it, they are the most clingy. Even more than their sister, you know, she is like the girl can be a beast. You know, she has her moments of like being, you know, maybe even more so with me being soft and like being all over me and stuff like that. (1:05:45 - 1:05:57) But, you know, she knows how to contain herself in some situations without us even imposing any of that. She can also scream wildly. But the boys are they have the softness that I see. (1:05:58 - 1:06:18) They also have the rambunctiousness and they can wreck the whole house in two minutes and all of that. But they have their natural softness, just natural that we get to tame. And I really feel like as men, we also need to provide for ourselves appropriate containment and no longer repression. (1:06:19 - 1:06:27) You know, the shadow of containment is repression. We shut it down. And the shadow of expression is just like barfing things out. (1:06:28 - 1:07:02) But I feel like we get to learn appropriate the capacity for brutality and for hostility and for violence and all of these kind of like other shadowy traits. But I also feel like we need to provide the same kind of appropriate containment for, hey, your capacity for softness, your capacity for tenderness. And you will see how you want to see how men can pay attention to how they treat their dogs. (1:07:02 - 1:07:23) If they have if a man has a dog and pay attention to how he will take care of a car that he really pay attention to how he will treat his gun. You know, a gun that he really likes. But I just want to say we have all of this and it is a different kind of warriorship that is needed. (1:07:23 - 1:07:43) It is heart warriorship where it is no longer about becoming the warrior who has the heart shut down. It is actually becoming the warrior who protects the open heart. It's a different energy, meaning the heart behind me is not shut down. (1:07:44 - 1:07:52) It's not concealed, but the heart is actually open. And I am just making sure that nothing shuts it down. Not even me. (1:07:53 - 1:08:15) It's a different form of warriorship, meaning I am so in tune with my strength and I am also building a different kind of strength that was foreign for generations of men before emotional strength. Like I can stand in the fire and be okay with it. I can relate to my own urges and impulses. (1:08:15 - 1:08:40) I can pay attention to all the ways I am often attempting to discharge my pain through sex, through porn, through masturbation, through all of these different things. And instead of using these pathways as a way to discharge pain, I am no longer using these pathways as a way to discharge pain. So yeah, we have a work cut out for us as men during these times. (1:08:42 - 1:08:49) Well said Xavier. Yeah. Xavier, how old are you right now? I'm turning 36 this year. (1:08:50 - 1:09:25) Amazing. So I want to ask you, when you look on your journey in life so far, where you're currently at, are you proud of where you're at? Do you feel like you're on a good trajectory? Do you feel like you're ahead of where you kind of maybe perceived yourself to be? How do you relate to yourself and your own vision for your path and expectations of yourself? So there are many voices inside of me right now. There is a critic inside of me that would say, well, you can do better. (1:09:26 - 1:09:41) That's the voice of the critic inside of me. There's another voice that's just like, you have already blown all the expectations you had of yourself. So be more gentle with yourself and appreciate more where you are. (1:09:42 - 1:10:00) There's another part of me that says, well, there is a lot more work to be done. And you're just scratching the surface in terms of like your path, your mission and everything that you're here to offer. And there's also another voice that is so much more peaceful that is saying, even if none of it gets done in this lifetime, I can live with myself. (1:10:03 - 1:10:23) And, you know, I'm just operating from this place where I am devoted to the path and I may screw up, I may get lost. I may not, you know, there are usually have some people, especially business people that come my way that they are saying, well, your business could do more. You could do this more. (1:10:23 - 1:10:45) You know, it's just like there's always the voice of more, more, more, more, more that I also know exists within myself, which is the reason why I would sometimes attract these people. And I've learned to just make peace with the timing of my life and at the same time to be committed. It is not a passive kind of like surrender. (1:10:45 - 1:11:03) It's like I am pretty much like, you know, at the wheel and I'm co-creating with God. And it's like I am welcoming the signs and I am doing the very best I can to act on the guidance in every now moment. And at the same time, man, it's like that's all I can ask for myself. (1:11:05 - 1:11:24) So, yeah, I am highly aware of these voices. The critic is not that loud. You know, sometimes it will come up when I try to operate from the feeling of urgency, but that would usually be some sort of like false urgency that I'm internalizing from somewhere. (1:11:25 - 1:11:51) But yeah, there are all these voices and in every now moment, I just do the best I can to lead from the voice of like, hey, you know what? You can trust your devotion to the path. And you can trust that in every now moment, in the best of your ability, if you recognize an invitation and a guidance, you will do the best you can to act on it, which is my commitment. And the rest, you know, it unfolds as it unfolds. (1:11:52 - 1:12:02) So, yeah, seeing myself as the head, no. But in every now moment, you're just like, yeah, you can always do better. You can always do more. (1:12:02 - 1:12:13) You can always do this and that. And also, can it be okay to just make peace with where you're at? And yeah, that's my practice. I'm just making more and more peace with that. (1:12:13 - 1:12:42) And I'm enjoying it more as I make peace with that. And actually, another piece of it is, I am in this place where instead of having it all figured out, before I put creations out there in the world, my practice this year is to be more spontaneous, even in the things that I put out there. Imperfect creations, you know, it's more of my practice to be like, hey, you know what? This idea wants to go somewhere. (1:12:42 - 1:12:49) And where it wants to go is not fully clear yet. And we're going to express it. We're going to move it out there. (1:12:49 - 1:12:56) We're going to move it ahead. And we're going to see how it keeps unfolding. And lately, this is how I've been creating everything. (1:12:56 - 1:13:28) Even the book that I'm writing, well, at this point, I'm just waiting for the final edit from my editors now. But it's like, every time I look at the damn book, I'm like, holy shit, I could say something differently or better or more accurately or whatever. And I just have to make peace with expressing, you know, expressing your passion, your purpose, your light imperfectly, because the end result is going to be imperfect, according to the standards of my spiritualized inner critic in there. (1:13:29 - 1:13:35) But I'm going to have to let that be OK and hopefully touch the hearts it's meant to touch. Yeah. Yeah. (1:13:35 - 1:13:52) Thank you so much for that, man. I really, really resonate with that personally, for sure. And it definitely seems as though that inner critic is loudest when we're trying to override the natural timing, trying to override God's timing, trying to take too much control. (1:13:52 - 1:14:13) It's no longer a 50-50 partnership with you and God, you and the universe, you and whatever you want to be. But yeah, deep down within you, you really know, if you're honest with yourself, if you're showing up as fully as you can, or you're doing the best that you can to a certain degree and being at peace with, yeah, that being enough. And the timing is the timing. (1:14:13 - 1:14:20) And I trust what will unfold is what is meant to unfold. Absolutely. And there's something else in the piece you just said. (1:14:20 - 1:14:52) I've seen that within myself, that the inner critic will happen to get loud when I am attempting to adopt values of other people that are not necessarily my own. And I've seen that at times, when people come at you or you work with somebody or somebody comes in your field and gets into your work and says, oh, you should be here and you should have, or you get into a mastermind and somebody is like, hey, you should be there and you should have done this by now. And you should, and you should, and you should, and you should. (1:14:52 - 1:15:03) And sometimes there's like valid insight in there that you can work from. And sometimes you just got to realize, let me filter it through my heart. Let me filter it through my system. (1:15:04 - 1:15:37) Is it something that is really in line with me? What are actually my real value, my real values? What is the pace that I want to adopt in my life at this moment? Is it really in line? And then you just get to redefine it for yourself and you move at a pace that is aligned with where you are and who you are. Yeah, exactly. Because like, it is also for me, like with the family, there's a realization that I'm not willing to take on an amount that will affect the way I show up in my familial life and the amount of energy that I want to put towards my wife and my kids as well. (1:15:37 - 1:15:58) Like the cost isn't worth it for me to take on something that's going to detract from the amount of energy that I can pour into that side of things too. Absolutely. And you know, it's like, and lately I've started just paying attention to what is the life of the people that I might happen, I might want to adopt, whose values I might want to adopt. (1:15:58 - 1:16:10) And some of them, sometimes they don't have three kids. Sometimes they don't have three kids that they are homeschooling. Sometimes they, you know, and I'm just like, yeah, I see how that works out really well for you. (1:16:10 - 1:16:30) And in this moment, I might find an expression of it that works well with my way of life until I find it. You know, I will continue to operate at a pace that currently works with all the moving pieces in my life at the moment. And yeah. (1:16:30 - 1:16:44) And as I'm saying that I am, it's important for people to kind of understand. I am one, I lean naturally more towards challenging myself more. That is my natural. (1:16:44 - 1:17:09) It's like, I will naturally go towards like, I remember at some point last year where I was writing the book. I had four months to kind of like, from signing of the contract to submitting the first edit, I had four months and I was like writing the book and like holding space for, I think two groups that I was running at the time. Different things and also being there at home with the kids and everything. (1:17:10 - 1:17:24) It was just, I naturally lean towards what stretches me more and not the same. So it's necessary for me to sometimes take some perspective and maybe even slow things down. Yeah. (1:17:24 - 1:17:30) And I think that's correct though. Like as a man, I feel like you want to ride the edge. You want to be at that edge. (1:17:30 - 1:17:47) You don't want to fall over it though. Yeah. And you know, it's also creating the proper guardrails to hold yourself because sometimes we underestimate how much support we need, especially as men. (1:17:47 - 1:18:07) And creating support systems. When I'm struggling with stuff, I know where I get support for myself right now. It's important to have that because a man that is starving for support is one of the most isolated men out there. (1:18:07 - 1:18:13) And I think that is really challenging and almost sometimes dangerous for men. Yeah. Yeah. (1:18:14 - 1:18:37) Xavier, I know obviously we could talk about this one subject for a while, but like when working with people, and you were obviously commenting it before. I think we were talking about it, just like we have these different facets to us and the different voices within us. How do you work with people to get them to first understand this? Because some people can be so over-identified with one voice and then have no idea what exists on the other side. (1:18:38 - 1:18:57) How do you work with people to get them to kind of build a friendlier relationship with the multitudes that lie within? Yeah. The first concept that I attempt to transmit to every person I work with is you are an ecosystem of consciousness. You are a constellation more than you are just like one single star. (1:18:59 - 1:19:32) And when we are able to drive that through to people, therefore the work is, what does it look like to have the most appropriate relationship with each star of the constellation? Which aspect of the ecosystem? That's the first thought form that I try to transmit. It's like, you are a constellation. You are not this unified mind that you think you are. (1:19:33 - 1:19:43) Some people would often tell me, oh, I am just an introvert. I'm like, don't bullshit me. It's like, there are some situations where you are the most extroverted ever. (1:19:43 - 1:19:51) What are these situations? I'm like, no, you're not one-sided. You're not just an extrovert or just an introvert and whatever. Let's refine it. (1:19:51 - 1:20:03) You are much more refined than that. And with that, there is an invitation to ask people. It's like, don't box all of who you are into just one identity. (1:20:04 - 1:20:25) You're a constellation of traits. And now let's ask ourselves, what is the most appropriate relationship that you can have with this specific trait, with this specific voice within you? And maybe we might go into a more specific example, but that's the first thing. It's like, okay, right now, the critic inside of me is speaking. (1:20:26 - 1:20:43) And the critic, sometimes it's one of the traits that people have a hard time, sometimes even seeing within themselves. Or sometimes the child inside of me is speaking, the victim within me is speaking. But that doesn't mean that you don't have also a sovereign king, queen essence inside of you that also wants to be expressed. (1:20:43 - 1:20:59) That doesn't mean that you also don't have an aspect of you that is not deeply intuitive within you that wants to be expressed. And sometimes people would come and say, well, I am stuck in self-sabotage and all of these different things. I procrastinate and all of that. (1:20:59 - 1:21:47) And I usually like to ask them questions such as, if this saboteur inside of you was your intuition trying to get your attention, what would it say? And sometimes it just opens up the mind of people, be like, what the fuck are you talking about? Are you trying to say that this thing could be my intuition trying to say something? And just asking questions that turn the awareness of people in a different direction can go a long way, can really go a long way. And I've also had some things where people would share something and they would tell me, there's literally no good that came out of this specific situation. A challenge that they went through, a hardship that they went through, whatever they went through. (1:21:48 - 1:22:07) And that too, I'm just going to challenge. And sometimes I may be perceived as the asshole by that person in the moment by challenging the perspective. I'm like, okay, what else came out of it? What was an unexpected good that came out of it? Or sometimes they are seeing the situation in a very much flowery way. (1:22:08 - 1:22:40) And I'm like, what else that was more challenging than you're willing to admit unfolded in that specific situation? So I think the practice of, it's such a devotion to awareness, to consciousness. And without it, it is really, really hard to be integrated, which is actually the core of my commitment. It's like, I long to make integrated choices. (1:22:41 - 1:23:14) And an integrated choice is a choice that is not made from the shadow. In every choice that I make, I wanna make sure that nothing else other than me is making the choice. And if I wanna make sure that nothing other than me, meaning no shadow material, no freaking weird collective thought form that I latched onto, no freaking entity or whatever else it might be, but really just me in alignment with my heart and soul. (1:23:14 - 1:23:28) I wanna make sure that every act of creation in the best of my ability, it's a big ask, but that's my commitment to. I wanna make sure that every act of creation is coming from me in alignment with my soul. And that's the devotion. (1:23:28 - 1:23:40) And if you're willing to do that, that means you have to see the unseen. You have to be devoted to be like, if there is something else at play in here, I wanna see it. Yeah. (1:23:40 - 1:23:57) This is why, and we've talked about this so often on the podcast, and I just wrote an article recently about this. It's like people who dismiss this deeper level of self-awareness and psychological insight and self-understanding and just skip straight to the spiritual principles. You know? Yeah. (1:23:57 - 1:24:20) And it's like they look at the world through that lens. And of course, the phrase spiritual bypassing comes up. We know it's pretty cliche at this point, but like, I just don't understand how this desire to know oneself and all this depth and all this complexity isn't primary, as opposed to like, I'm gonna adopt these principles and I'm gonna live above what's really happening in my body and my spirit and my soul. (1:24:21 - 1:24:34) So, I mean, feel free to chat about that if you'd like. Well, it's not though. I mean, if I can jump in, I feel like it's not as accessible and this kind of understanding of parts work and voices and family constellations. (1:24:35 - 1:24:46) And even nervous system physiology. Yeah. Like, I mean, it's at least, you know, when I started this journey 10 years ago, it wasn't nowhere near as prevalent in the mainstream fray as it is now. (1:24:46 - 1:25:01) You know, like the spiritual books, the new age concepts, the Eastern stuff, that was all very accessible, very prevalent. And it's almost like this was more of a niche kind of idea and concepts. And it's also like it's a harder part. (1:25:04 - 1:25:07) It is freaking hard. Yeah, it's hard. It is freaking hard. (1:25:08 - 1:25:20) Truth takes away all the advantages that you are receiving from the shadow. And people are not willing to lose some of these advantages. Light, but I mean, true light. (1:25:20 - 1:25:43) I'm not talking about, you know, disembodied light where you're attempting to kind of like reach realms and experience life from outside of your body and a kumbaya kind of like light. I'm not talking about that. I'm real embodied light takes away the benefits that come from the that you receive from the shadow. (1:25:43 - 1:26:09) And I will explain a little bit what I mean by that. The benefits that come from the shadow. If I am aware that my repressed anger, every single time I am passive aggressive because I am not willing to meet my anger, it is actually, it makes me feel good in the moment because I appear like a nice person, you know, but through that, I am also being passive aggressive here and there. (1:26:09 - 1:26:32) And I sometimes make comments that are sharp and cut deep in people that I actually love because I am not willing to tell them the truth of what is really going on in my heart. If I become aware of that and I really want to be a loving person. I will have no other choice than shifting the way I show up. (1:26:32 - 1:26:43) It's taking away the benefit that, oh, I get to repress my anger and pass like the nice person. It's that's a benefit. We have secondary benefits. (1:26:43 - 1:26:50) It removes all shortcuts. There's no, it takes away all of that. It just clears all of that away. (1:26:50 - 1:27:00) You're going to see all the ways you were misusing your shadow as well. You're going to see all of that. And people, most people, they are scared of it. (1:27:00 - 1:27:17) They are scared of truth because truth comes with consequences. And at the same time, I also feel like it's just a natural stage to go through the phase where you're like, I'm going to shoot for the light and fuck, fuck everything that is dark. Let me just go and experience these higher realms. (1:27:17 - 1:27:27) I think it's just a natural stage. And then we kind of realize, shit, it's not really working that well. You know, and then we, there's a call of the dark that happens. (1:27:28 - 1:27:42) I think there is some sort of like arc there. Where you become aware of like spiritual teachings and you just want to shoot for the highest light that you can. And there's a ceiling, there's a glass ceiling there. (1:27:42 - 1:28:15) And that's the reason why we've seen so many spiritual teachers who sometimes reveal themselves to have unintegrated sexual energy that sometimes engage into deviant relationships with some of their devotees or followers and stuff like that. Because at some point, your light is going to require for you to build the emotional and psychological maturity and capacity to fully embody it. It's going to naturally require that. (1:28:15 - 1:28:41) And some people are going to try to kind of like bypass it and shoot straight for the highest light. But sure, if you want to keep going in that direction, at some point, you're going to leave your body. But if you want to leave, if you want to live a life of embodied expression, naturally, I think your higher self and your shadow self, they are two sides of the same coin. (1:28:42 - 1:28:58) They are two sides of the same coin of your inner divinity. I call the shadow self the dark face of your higher self. But they are all just like two faces of the same thing, of the same beingness, which is your soul, your inner divinity. (1:28:58 - 1:29:13) You shoot for your higher self. Naturally, your higher self is going to say, go find my twin. And that's where you're going to start the next phase of the journey, which is, let me build the emotional capacity, the psychological capacity to hold my light. (1:29:14 - 1:29:23) So I think it naturally happens. So we can try to avoid it, but we will remain disembodied. My drop right there, man. (1:29:24 - 1:29:33) Thank you so much for your time. Once again, I'll have to hype up that intro bio a little bit more for chat 3 after this conversation. That's for sure. (1:29:34 - 1:29:43) But man, I just appreciate you so much. It's just so resonant, particularly like where you're at. Even in my journey, man, I've got three kids, they're homeschooled as well. (1:29:44 - 1:29:54) We're on similar kind of career paths also. I think I need like an AI Xavier to kind of chat to every now and then. Well, you're hyping me up way too much now, man. (1:29:54 - 1:30:18) But honestly, I think the quality of a conversation depends on the different parties in the conversation. If I was with a different host or a different person than you guys, it would have been a completely different conversation. So it's like there's a shared appreciation for the depth that you're inviting. (1:30:18 - 1:30:35) And when you say that you're here for the truth, you really mean that you're here for the truth, which is one thing that I appreciate about. You know, when we received the email that you guys were inviting me again, I was just like, for sure, you know, like, there's no doubt that I want to be there. So, yeah, thanks, man. (1:30:35 - 1:30:54) Yeah, that's a pleasure. My brother, where would you like to direct the audience at this point in time? Well, at this point in time, well, they can find me on my website, xavierdagba.com. There's a book that's coming out later this year. It's going to be in September, First Cards of Gold. (1:30:54 - 1:31:09) Or in the meantime, if they want to dive into more of, you know, my own podcast venture, we are, you know, we're going to have the first episode actually on March 4th, which is tomorrow. Oh, great. But it's, yeah, it's just starting. (1:31:09 - 1:31:29) I called it Enheartened. And the conversation is, the whole point is to have heart opening conversations. I think that we are at this point where we are learning to walk the path at the intersection of enlightenment and endarkenment, ascension and dissension. (1:31:30 - 1:31:42) And that intersection, in my opinion, is the heart, but an open heart. So there is this necessity to learn how to welcome more aspects of who we are into the heart. And I call it Enheartenment. (1:31:43 - 1:31:57) And so the podcast is called Enheartened. It is airing out there. And yeah, that's just a way people can also get to tune into the kind of like, you know, just similar to what we just had right now. (1:31:57 - 1:32:04) But conversations that invite people more into the heart. That's what I'm really interested to at the moment. Beautiful, man. (1:32:04 - 1:32:13) I love the concept and I love the name of the book as well, man. Looking forward to that thing coming out. Everyone listening, I hope you got a lot of value from this conversation. (1:32:13 - 1:32:20) If you did enjoy it, please share it around and we'll see you next time. Take care. And that wraps up today's journey. (1:32:20 - 1:32:34) But hey, the truth train doesn't stop here. Every Friday, we drop little nuggets of wisdom straight to your inbox. We're talking mind-expanding ideas, heart-opening perspectives, and the kind of content that hopefully makes you go, whoa, I never thought of it that way. (1:32:35 - 1:32:46) Our Friday drops like having coffee with that friend who always blows your mind. Except this friend shows up right on schedule and never asks to borrow money. So if you want to join our truth-seeking tribe, it's super easy. (1:32:46 - 1:33:04) Just hop over to hereforthetruth.com forward slash Friday and hit that subscribe button. No spam, no fluff, just pure unfiltered goodness delivered weekly. So if you're ready to make your Fridays a little more truthful, a little more inspiring, and a whole lot more awesome, your future self will thank you for this one. (1:33:05 - 1:33:10) See you next time. And remember, we're always here for the truth and we're always here for you.