Jaguar Heart The Truth About Masculine Initiation

Joel 00:00:02.160 - 00:00:42.000 Jaguar Heart is a men's coach that helps separate men from the mother construct and feminine dynamics. And a quick tidbit about Jag. He was actually our first ever guest here on Here for the Truth, way back on episode three in June of 2021. So we recorded two solo episodes before that. And then Erasmus and I were like, let's have a guest on. And Jag happened to be that very first guest. He also joined us previously on episode 66, being a high Value man in a Dysfunctional society. And episode 180, the Narrow Gates and the End of Dogmatism. Jag, my bro. Welcome back, man. Jag 00:00:42.800 - 00:00:46.640 Thanks, fellas. Good to be back. What an intro. I can't believe I was the first guest. Joel 00:00:47.200 - 00:00:47.520 You. Yerasimos 00:00:47.520 - 00:00:51.520 You were the first guest. And you were also the first guest in Friends of the Truth as well, I think. Jag 00:00:52.070 - 00:00:53.470 Yeah, I think I was. Yeah, that's right. Joel 00:00:53.470 - 00:00:53.990 I was. Jag 00:00:53.990 - 00:00:55.190 Yeah. Awesome. Yerasimos 00:00:55.350 - 00:00:56.870 Setting trends, Jaguar. Jag 00:00:57.110 - 00:01:01.590 Was that five years ago now? It must have been five years. Close to five years, at least. All right. Yerasimos 00:01:02.070 - 00:01:05.550 Yeah. 2021 was the. Was the pod. Crazy. Joel 00:01:05.550 - 00:01:05.870 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:01:05.870 - 00:01:10.230 And then a year later was. Was the community. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Joel 00:01:10.550 - 00:01:29.200 And I remember after that episode, we jumped on a live together on Instagram. Erasmus and I always laugh about this. And your Instagram grid was like, perfectly curated. Like, every post looked the same. Like, it looked like you'd never done a lot before. Then we jumped on a live together and you posted it and the title was just Live. What? Yerasimos 00:01:31.120 - 00:01:34.320 I love it, dude. I love it. Straight to the point. Jag 00:01:36.480 - 00:01:38.160 That's classic. That's so good. Joel 00:01:38.880 - 00:01:40.720 What's happening, bro? What's going on in your life? Jag 00:01:41.440 - 00:02:26.059 Oh, man, it's. I think we connect about once a year on average, I reckon now, because I think this is. This is number four. We're at about five years since we did the first one, so, yeah, a lot, man. You know, marriage soon, in the next six months, kids hopefully next year. So, yeah, it's moving up. It's moving up works. The work stuff is probably what we're going to get into, I'd say, with splitting from the mother and stuff like that and those sorts of topics. But, man, it's. The biggest thing has been health. Health. I took a major hit in my health the last couple of years, and that's been a. That's been a real interesting journey to go on, so we can sort of go through a few things. Just depends on where you guys want to go. But apart from that, I don't mind. Joel 00:02:26.459 - 00:02:28.859 Unpicking that a little bit. Like what happened with you? Jag 00:02:29.739 - 00:04:13.250 So I got out of a relationship a couple of years ago, it was about three years now, and I ended up with really bad PTSD from the relationship. So most people associate PTSD with you hear a kickback on a car and then you're under your desk or something like that, or you can't operate. But how it operates when it's cptsd. So when it's cptsd, which is complex ptsd, you can't actually identify the original source trauma. And my health went downhill, really bad from being in a relationship where it was constant push, pull. I was being gaslit all the time and manipulated. And my health got so bad that a number of issues started to come up. And one of them was I would lie down and my head would feel like it's been electrocuted. That was one. I had insomnia for five months. I lost around 10 kilos of muscle and just general weight, like I was severely underweight. I wasn't eating properly. I was completely shut down emotionally. And when I got out of this relationship, I understood and discovered like, what I was interacting with, which, you know, I'm not a psychiatrist or qualified to diagnose, but narcissistic personality disorder. And I actually bought in. I worked with Richard Grannon, who you guys have interviewed before, and two other top therapists in America. And I gave them all of the information that I had through text messages, exchanges, everything, and I said, just tell me what I'm in here. And they all pretty much said the same thing with minor variations. One said malignant, another one said psychopathy, whatever. So anyway, I went through this and then during the time when I discovered this, my father died. Best friend died and then gone father, godfather died, all in a six to eight week period. Joel 00:04:13.330 - 00:04:13.730 Wow. Jag 00:04:13.730 - 00:06:57.380 So I was really put through it. Yeah, I went through it and I could sit there now and say that was part of the splitting from the mother, splitting from the father, the commencement of differentiation and individuation. But my health took a huge hit and I had to start to climb my way back essentially from that. So I started doing EMDR therapy, which is Eye Movement Desensitization Response, I think the R stands for, where you'll sort of use your eyes and follow the finger or tap your shoulders. And it took me 30 sessions in one year to clean that up. Most of the time, EMDR, six sessions. And that's how bad I was. It took about 30 sessions to get to it. So I came out of that. Everything was, was pretty good, but. But My health still wasn't quite. Wasn't quite there. And then I started to go into severe burnout. Similar, like, electrical shocks in the head, but not quite the same, was more sinus y. And then I discovered that I had black mold poisoning and chemical poisoning as well, from a house that I was living in. So then I went, I found an iridologist in California who looked at my eyes and found everything that was going on. And I had diverticulitis, chemical poisoning. My lower back was out. I could barely walk properly. My knees were pretty short. It was a whole thing. And then it culminated in me not being able to get out of bed in the morning because I would wake up with the most severe hangover I'd ever experienced. And I used to party. My nickname was the Wolf of Wall street guy 10 years ago. So I used to give it a shot. And these hangovers that I'd wake up with. And I don't drink, I don't touch alcohol, but I'd wake up and I could. I couldn't even open my eyes. I could barely get out of bed. And I just had to get up to get to a cold shower. That's. That's how it operate. And I fell into despair. You know, I fell into despair, which was a really strange experience to go through. But I remember thinking I was at an airport and I said I could see how people with long term chronic illness would want to kill themselves if they're just like this all the time. I wasn't thinking that about myself, but I was in despair. It was quite hard. And then this woman that I found, an iridologist. Gave me some custom amino acids which started rebuilding my system, and now I'm 60, 70, better. So it's been a journey for the last four years or so. It's been a very, very intense journey for me. So. Yeah. Now on the other side of it, after doing the emotional psychological work and then the physical work, my reward has been a really beautiful relationship with Joelle that's so peaceful, like, without her. It's. You know, I say this all the time. The right woman by your side will change your life. The wrong woman will take you to hell, but the right woman will. Will really sort her out. And she's been great. So she was kind of my re For. For all the hard work. Joel 00:06:57.620 - 00:07:09.300 Yeah, yeah. I'm really sorry you went through all that, man. That's obviously super intense. Hey, I want to get. I want to get real for a second, and I just. Because I think it'd be really important to talk about it for the audience. Jag 00:07:09.620 - 00:07:10.020 Yeah. Joel 00:07:10.020 - 00:07:21.620 Like during this period of you not being in the most ideal relationship, of you experiencing despair, etc, like you were an established men's coach, which like even briefed into like relationship coach. Jag 00:07:22.400 - 00:07:22.720 Yeah. Joel 00:07:22.720 - 00:07:33.760 What was happening within you? Is there any form of dissonance or imposter syndrome where it's like, well, I'm teaching certain things, yet my ain't together in any. In any capacity? Jag 00:07:34.640 - 00:09:09.760 Well, so with the men's coaching stuff, I would look more towards. And it's a good point. That's why I just own everything publicly. So I don't pretend. I was never pretending that I was good all the time. I was quite open about it. And I wasn't really doing relationship coaching back then. When I was in that relationship, it was more. That was a bit more subconscious programming and masculinity, just pure masculinity. And I wasn't doing health coaching either. So if I'd been doing health coaching and then teaching people how to be healthy, that wasn't it. Right. But what I was doing was still getting up for every session and showing up, providing, doing all of that, which is one of the things that I'm a proponent for when some days I'd have to drag myself out of the office after a session. So one of the things that I find really important is you've got to walk people through things that you've walked through yourself. None of the stuff that I do, I haven't walked through myself. So relative to that, what I was going through was splitting from the mother. That was. That was the core thing that the whole thing was about. And so once I got through that, now that's what I do with men, because I know the process intimately. I think narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder is an initiatory concept that has been developed by nature in order to. To break us free from anything that is part of the false self. Could there have been some dissonance there? There was dissonance there. I was in cognitive dissonance with the previous relationship, 100%. And that's working with Richard is how I learned to get rid of it. So there were elements there for sure. And it's a good question around asking that. And that's why I'm like, if you're choosing a coach, make sure they've walked through what you've. What you're trying to walk through. So, yeah, it's a really good question. Yerasimos 00:09:10.210 - 00:09:39.220 Hey, Jack. Also, I'm curious, like, when you met your Current partner. And as you were going through this, like, how did she show up? And where is that fine line when you're, let's say, dealing with something chronic where you don't want to kind of fall into that, the boy mode and go, just take care of me because I'm not feeling well. And yet you have a partner who's there for you and supportive, you know, like, what is that fine line? And how did you experience it? Especially as you just said you were kind of, this whole initiation was part of, even for you separating from the mother. Jag 00:09:40.020 - 00:11:38.530 Yeah, look, it's a really good question as well. And honestly, I had to support her more in the start than she needed to support me. She was, when we got into the relationship, she had a 90 day cycle right from like working stress, all of that. I still had a pretty high capacity at the time. So she, I said to her, I go, I would look her at the end of the day, look at her at the end of the day and her eyes would be bloodshot and it would look like, you know, when someone just wakes up, she'd look like she just woke up at the end of the day. So I would say, come on, let's go down to the beach, let's go for a beach walk, let's get into nature, let's get you out of here. And then after about a month, I said, I can't really sit around just watching you go through this. This is, this is having an effect on you. I said, if you want to quit, I'll give you the same amount of income if you want, until you find something that you want to do. But your health is taking a massive hit. She had 16 hours sleep debt, 90 day cycle, digestion issues, all of that. Once we got her out of that, within two months, she started to drop down into a 34, 35 day cycle. The whole last 12 months has been around her just healing herself. Now that doesn't really answer the question, but in the start it was more about me helping her because I've got pretty deep reserves to be able to get through it. So I don't really collapse emotionally and go, I need you to hold me, etc. She goes, well, how can I help you? That would make your life easier. I said, well, if you want, if you're not working while you're healing, look after the house. She loves to cook, she loves flowers, she loves making the home beautiful. So I said, just make the space beautiful. And that's what she does. And that alone was the thing that helped me So I. I don't really, unless it's a big thing, take it to her. Most of the stuff I deal with, I just deal with on my own. Because I find that for me personally, and this isn't a set rule for everyone, I deal with most of the problems. My greatest reward in life is taking care of her and our family. That's why I was just having this conversation a couple of days ago. Joel 00:11:38.770 - 00:11:39.250 Yeah. Jag 00:11:39.730 - 00:13:59.390 Where, you know, I used to. I used to be quite materialistic, and I liked that. You know, it was a bit of a sort of status thing, and that's kind of all worn itself out. It's a nice byproduct, but it's not a focus. And I said to her, I said, you know, the most fulfilling thing I get is taking care of you and seeing you healthy. That's it. And so, you know, there's been one or two moments where I was really frustrated because I was sick of feeling like shit. I was so, like, I was at 5 to 10% operating for so long. And I remember sitting out by the pool, and this is actually a pretty good way for men when they're having a moment for themselves. I was sitting out by the pool, and Joe was sitting next to me. And she had her arm around me. And whenever I'm, like, in a state like this, which rarely happens, I make sure that I'm not directing it at her by looking at her. I'm looking away from her. And I was like, oh, I'm just. And I had my hand over my face. I'm like, I'm over it. I'm so sick of this. Which those that know me know that I'm not an overly emotionally reactive guy, But I was. I was having a moment, and it was like, one of maybe two this in the last 12 months, where I was just so over it, man, I was so tired of it. And she just put her arm around me and put her head on my shoulder, and she didn't say anything. She didn't try to fix it. And I said, this has got nothing to do with you. This is just what I'm feeling at the moment. It's what I'm going through. This has been four or five years of just turmoil for me. And she just put her head on my shoulder, and she's like, I'm here. And so it wasn't like, fix it, Love me, help me, I'm weak. I was like, I just need to get this out. And made sure that I didn't look at her while I was Doing it, I looked away so she didn't feel confrontational. Because when you look at someone, it's quite confrontational. And so it's. It's mainly about being able to have the capacity to move through it and go, all right, there's a beginning, a middle, and an end. I know what I do to need to feel better. So I have a cold shower. I go to an ice bath, a sauna. I do some work. I show up, I help someone. I get some sunlight, I eat really healthy food, I go and train. I've got all the protocols in place. If all of that doesn't work, then I get. If I get frustrated, I'll do something else. I'll take the dog for a walk. I'll go and process it in some sort of movement. And then if it just continues and nothing shifts, then I might have one moment like that where I'm just like. I get quite frustrated. Frustration is probably the emotion that I deal with things through. Joel 00:13:59.550 - 00:14:00.030 Yeah. Jag 00:14:00.030 - 00:14:02.110 So, yeah, that's. That's how I deal with it. Joel 00:14:02.350 - 00:14:03.790 How did. How did you guys meet? Jag 00:14:05.950 - 00:14:16.180 We met two years ago, I think maybe a little bit before then. We used to see each other at our local cafe, and so we connected through there. Cool, Cool. Yerasimos 00:14:16.580 - 00:14:33.220 So what did. Because you mentioned it before, I'm just curious. This process, like, what did this initiation of, like, separating from the mother, like, what did it look like to you? How did it feel internally? Like, what were the mental processes that were going on, you know, in regards to your relationship with your mother and how it showed up in your life? Jag 00:14:34.020 - 00:20:32.380 Yeah, it's a good question. And so it's a. That's a big question, too. So the first thing I had to do is. What I realized is. And this is probably nothing new, but you guys would know. You know, when you get information, you can read the information, but it doesn't land. And then it might land six, 12 months later, you go, oh, that was that. So I remember. I. So this person that I was with, and this is. I just want to put a caveat here. This is not to tear her down or say anything about. I got a tremendous gift from that relationship. But the truth is the truth. But so I. She would, like, do push, pull stuff and idealize, devalue, discard, Hoover cycles, which is build up, tear down, break up, pull back in. So anyway, this was happening for a while, and I just went, if you do this again, I'm out. And she threatened the relationship again. And this was New Year's Eve, 2022, around that time I said, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. So, anyway, I went down to Bondi and I went into a bookstore that I like to go and read. It's called Gertrude and Alice, and they serve coffee and I used to sit in there for hours and read. Anyway, I walk in and there's a book on the floor called Healing from Toxic Relationships. And I'm like, timely. Anyway, I start reading it because you're allowed to read while you're in there. And I see the idealized devalue discard Hoover cycle. I'd never heard of it before. And I start to go into shock. And I'm sitting at the table literally holding the book, shaking, like, almost having a depersonalization experience. And I. And I put it down and I was just. I was at the table just like, not violently shaking, but shaking. Anyway, I had to get up because I realized this is what I was in. And I went out and sat on the south end hill at Bondi and I started reading and I said, I've got to get through this. And I got to the hoovering cycle. Hoovering, named after the vacuum cleaner, because they tried to pull you back in. And it said, when the narcissist is done abusing you, they'll tell you what you want to hear. And the exact words in the book were, the narcissist will often say, hey, I'm ready to get married and have a baby now, and no word of a lie on my unborn children that are coming in on their life. I got that exact message within an hour from her. And I was like, she's like, I want a boring life, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm like, holy. And then all these pieces started to fall in. And my sister used to say to me, she's exactly like our mum. But I couldn't see it because my mom's extremely cruel. Narcissistic personality disorder. Then all the wheels started to turn for me. And I used to liken myself to. Like, a big pane of glass that had cracks through it. And this tight period that I went through when I realized it, because it almost feels like your world spins out of control when the cognitive dissonance lifts to what Joel asked earlier. Cognitive dissonance is like, you can only see the good, you can't see the bad. And they gaslight you to think all the bad is your fault, but all the good is their fault. And they get you in a spin and you can't see it, and you start to feel Crazy. And so when you start to feel crazy, confusion is the basis by which they use to keep you off track. Then they break you, they kind of devour you, and then they move on to another supply. And I've seen this. Like, all her exes are like that too, which I couldn't see at the time either. So, anyway, I started to look at this, I started to come out of it, and for a couple of weeks. I was really very fragile at the time. Like, I felt very. Fragile is the best word. I felt like I was going to break at any second. And then my dad died. And so I didn't really have too much time to go into that at the time. I was just like, oh. And then while I was in Sydney that week, one of my best friends from school who I was meant to catch up with, he kept dropping into my awareness. He died that week of an overdose. And I was supposed to see him. And he hadn't taken drugs for ages. He just went out one night and that's what happened, and he died. And then when I got back up to Byron Bay, my God, I found out my godfather died as well. My dad and my godfather were best mates, so all of this had happened. So I just. I shut down and I just started to try to process it. Anyway, as I started to see this, she tried to come back. And I'm like, I just can't really deal with this properly right now. I just have to get on with my work. I have to focus. Then a few months later, she went away and I got a text message from her. And I went into the same shock that I did in January when I was in the bookstore. And that's where it all hit me. And I went, oh, my God, this relationship's making me sick. And to go back to the book, the number one trait to know that you're in a toxic relationship is your health declines while you're in it. And all of the pieces just landed for me. I found a diaphragm breathing expert that unlocked my diaphragm and I just grieved my dad bad. And all of it for. For like a week. Then I saw all the pieces that were the same. So, snapped out of the dissonance, I saw it for what it was. It lost all its charge, dissolved the or, dismantled what was going on with the structures that I was in. And then I just saw it really clearly from there. And I help. I try to help people see it this time these days, too. This is what I said to Joel earlier that I help men break free from toxic feminine dynamics. I saw you left the word out of there. And as well, when you read that Joel earlier. Toxic feminine dynamics. Right. That's what I help men break free from. Right. Because when you see this, this is a large part in our society that's not really honored that much is there is a really gnarly side to the feminine psyche that's quite cruel. It's very manipulative. It will tear down and destroy everything in its way. And all the men that I'm working with at the moment are in similar situations like this where they need to break free. But this is the initiation into manhood when they don't split from the mother. Life is going to make you repeat it through a difficult relationship, usually with a woman that's probably NPD or BPD because they're very intense to split you away from it so you can go into mature masculinity. Joel 00:20:33.740 - 00:20:39.140 Just FYI. I didn't purposely not read it. I'd retype your message myself onto my notes and I missed. Jag 00:20:39.140 - 00:20:41.900 Right. Okay. I thought you might have left it out of there for. Joel 00:20:42.860 - 00:20:44.300 I've got no hangouts around that. Jag 00:20:45.430 - 00:21:15.690 Cool. So, yeah, that was. That was the journey that I went on through that, you know, and it was the greatest gift that I've. I've received because it was my initiation. And I was warned. I was warned by a woman within a few weeks of entering this relationship. You could say she probably had some sort of psychic ability. And she said to me in her exact words were, this is going to be your initiation. And this is going to be, and I quote, the hell beast. You almost don't survive. And I didn't want to hear it. And that's exactly what happened. Yerasimos 00:21:16.650 - 00:21:26.570 So. But then it's like. But then it. But then it's like, if you listen to her, you wouldn't have gotten the medicine that you needed, in a sense. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, thanks for letting me know and I have to walk the path. Jag 00:21:27.050 - 00:21:31.610 Yeah. And it would have just shown up again in someone else. I was meant to do it. Joel 00:21:31.930 - 00:21:36.250 Yeah. What did actually ending that look like? Jag 00:21:37.460 - 00:23:00.840 I went, you threaten the relationship. I'm done. And then she went into really interesting. Right. So I did that. And then when you sort of end something with someone of narcissistic flavor, they go into what's called narcissistic rage because he hit a narcissistic injury. So there was this whole sort of performance for the following week around her where she was Abusing me and all this other stuff. And then she was apparently in hospital with her throat closed up. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. But then when I confronted her with the information about the narcissist, conveniently she had a dream where she went to heaven and Jesus saved us. Everything she did in the past was now null and void. This is in a. In a week or so after it. So whether or not that's true, I don't know. But that's what happened from there. And then it was a dismantling experience from there. Seeing it, going through the stuff with my dad, my dad took the priority. So the breakup with her had already been done. So it was just kind of like, you know, she goes, I just want to be there for you. I want to help. You can. Please, can I just be your friend? I'm like, all right. Like, I don't have capacity to really clearly deal with this right now. And then like I mentioned when she went overseas, I saw that that's what was making me sick and just went through, man. EMDR was the thing that really saved me. Like, I had an amazing therapist that helped me. That helped me clear up all the CPTs. And that was the. That was the thing that really saved my life, I think. Joel 00:23:02.600 - 00:23:04.040 No, I appreciate you sharing, man. Yerasimos 00:23:04.680 - 00:23:26.940 Hey, bro. When it comes to separating from the mother, I feel like a lot of men deal with, you know, smothering moms or their so called mama's boys. You know, maybe, maybe they're not dealing with like intense, narcissistic, you know, mother, but it's just like they have a mother who does everything for their, for their boys, you know, and like, and like, what do you notice in men that have had that type of upbringing? Jag 00:23:27.580 - 00:24:41.550 Yeah, you could say, like, men experience two types of wounds. The wound of smothering is one of them, or the wound of neglect. So the wound of smothering is like the devouring mother. And you know, we keep hearing this thing around. We live in this tyrannical patriarchy. And I've been saying for a few years, I'm like, we live in a collective devouring mother or a gynocracy, which is. Which I've heard before too. And I saw this a few years ago, because when you try to erase masculinity or you try to make men like women, then they start to associate themselves through the feminine lens. So when we have a mother that teaches the boy about feelings, and this is. Thanks for that message the other day, Joel, about Iron John. Because I started reading it again and it says it in Iron John says when the boy is taught to relate to his feelings by the mother, he'll see his masculinity through a feminine lens. Yeah, okay. So then his. His worldview becomes washed through the feminine lens. And so what will happen is he will have a. An easier time relating to his femininity over his masculinity. And so generally, when you see the mummies, boys, they don't actually split from the mother. So they will still honor them over their wife. They'll still get them to do things. They'll seek their advice. Yerasimos 00:24:43.070 - 00:24:43.750 Excuse me. Jag 00:24:43.750 - 00:26:49.180 They'll seek their advice about things. They'll qualify if they should be with a woman through the mother. So the mother still holds the matriarchal position. So it's a very. It's an enmeshed relationship. I'd say it's depending on the mother. It's usually very unhealthy. And quite often the boy can. Doesn't always happen, but become quite spineless, you know, he'll often become what's called a performative ally, which we're seeing that at the moment. We saw what's his name, he reviews books, fantasy books or something. And he was in his truck talking about one week how masculinity is a prison. And then I don't know if you guys saw it. And then he said, masculinity can't be defined. And that's just cosplay, performative ally shit, which is taking on the plight of women, tearing down masculinity to gain favor and validation from women. This is what it turns into at its maladaptive end. So people think that the nice guy syndrome are bad for women. The performative ally is the worst. They're the hardcore male feminists that take on the plight of women and tear down men at the same time. That's what happens. That's the structure that it takes. Sometimes if you get the wound of neglect, which is what I had, then you become the bad boy. And then you don't really want to trust women and let them in because the trust has been violated. So one becomes a boundaryless state where you can't tell the difference between where the mother's spirit starts and the boys does. It becomes a blurred meridian. So it's what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine. It can be disastrous. The bad boy at least. Comes out fighting the mother, usually from day one. So it's. It's like the dragon fight, you know, we see that in myth. We see that in Thomas Campbell. Tassarian talks about it, Jung talks about it. The Ouroboros, it's all about fighting the dragon. So if you go down the bad boy route, then you're kind of fighting the mother from day one. So they have an easier time breaking free from it. The nice guy has a more difficult time because they get all of their worth, approval and validation from the feminine. So then maladaptively, they become a performative ally. Very difficult to break free from it at that point. Yeah. Yerasimos 00:26:49.180 - 00:28:10.810 You know, so interesting because I think about, you know, I was raised with like a Greek mother, you know, old school Greek. And I wouldn't say she was super smothering, but she was a typical, you know, Greek mom in that sense. And there were definitely growth points that I had to move through. You know, I remember when I first moved in with my first girlfriend, you know, this was a while ago, many years ago. Like I expected her to do everything and take care of me, you know, because I had a Greek mom that did that. And then it's like I had to learn very quickly, like, this is not, this is not the way things need to go, you know, so it's got a lot of tough lessons and I'm happy actually that I've kind of continued to work for them, with, work through them in my own way, especially before moving my mother out here. You know, fortunately, my mother never really wanted it, never got in between my relationships and, you know, I don't know what the language barrier, the consciousness barrier, but I was very like, you know, my mother doesn't tell me what to do, but there were elements of, like, being nurtured by my mom that I, you know, really, really loved and enjoyed, which I think there's some healthy elements. Of course, you know, it's not, it's not like I didn't, I didn't experience neglect, so I'm grateful for that. And at the same time, you know, there's a fine line and it's like, how do I relate to the women in my life and do I want them to fucking take care of me and nurture me? And if I don't feel well, like, you know, sure, being supportive is one thing, but like me turning into like a little boy when I'm not feeling well, you know, that's, that's not ideal, you know. Joel 00:28:11.450 - 00:28:26.090 Yeah. Now with a Lebanese helicopter mom definitely experienced similar patterns, for sure. I'm curious, are you familiar with family constellations in any capacity, Jack? Jag 00:28:26.570 - 00:28:30.890 I know of it, but I haven't looked into it. Is that what Tiziano does? Joel 00:28:31.370 - 00:29:00.830 Yeah, he does. There's this concept in family constellations about taking the mother, which ultimately is fully accepting your mother as she is without trying to change her, you know, and acknowledging that life itself came through her and fully receiving her. I'm curious, like, how does the dance look when it comes to that concept of embracing the mother in that aspect, yet the initiatory. The initiatory aspect of splitting from the mother. If anyone has thoughts on that dance. Jag 00:29:01.470 - 00:30:58.240 Yeah, look, I start with the process of differentiation. So you have to become gender opposite first. That's the first part. I don't think that you can fully integrate because I'd say I think it's a matter of splitting, then integrating. It's not about exiling. I think exiling is where it becomes unhealthy. And so you can love your mother. You should love your mother. Doesn't mean exiling. Getting rid of her or never speaking to her again. I think estrangement is too common in our society. I think it's. 25% of kids are estranged from their family at the moment. And I think that's down to more fragile victim culture and I got to protect my peace kind of mentality rather than actual very abusive mothers. And you can have a healthy mother. Healthy mother is defined in my opinion, even though it's very broad. The child's health is about self sufficiency. You just help them become self sufficient. Like Erasmus. You probably had an element of self sufficiency. There's. So your mum respects boundaries when she comes into your house. That's good, that's what you want. Whereas if the devouring mother doesn't let the child's expression come out at all. I worked with a guy that slept in the same bed as his mum for 27 years like that. That's not healthy, you know, and it affect him really badly. Yeah, he's a. He's a nice guy, to no surprise. But what actually had to happen, he needed to split from her to become his own independent self. Becoming the independent self is what's most important without actually being ingratiated or enmeshed with the mother still, where she's making all your decisions so you can fully accept her. But boundaries, boundaries are loving in my opinion. And I always say that the person that doesn't respect your boundaries just reveals that they want to control you. But if someone's actually got solid boundaries and you respect them and they respect you, they should be a natural part of a relationship. So I think for what you. What you mentioned, Joel, with that is you've got to split, establish yourself, and then you can fully accept your mother, in my opinion, as a separate bank. Joel 00:30:58.320 - 00:30:59.600 Yeah, totally. I agree. Yerasimos 00:31:00.000 - 00:31:31.440 I think. I think that's why it's important. And a lot of, like, I can only speak for the U.S. like first generation households, you know, a lot of people don't leave the home, they don't leave the town, they don't go on their own, let's say, hero's journey. And so I definitely credit, like moving away to university and having to live on my own and be on my own as something that helped in that situation because you see it so often. You know, it's like they're just like, they're 25, 30, and they're just showing up for dinner every single night. You know, they've never lived on their own. They've never gone on, let's say, some type of walkabout. So I think that's a big piece of the puzzle, in my opinion. Joel 00:31:31.680 - 00:31:55.700 Yeah, for sure. And one thing I might add is I think, like accepting your mother in the family constellation sense is like an inward movement, like an inward relationship. Yet the initiatory process that we're speaking about is more of an external movement away from in that sense, you know, like both can kind of dance. In that capacity, you can accept your mother deeply inwardly, yet still move away in a healthy, archetypal manner, you know? Jag 00:31:56.500 - 00:34:20.980 Yeah, I fully agree. I think there's. I look at it from behavior, emotion and psychology. Right. So the psychological aspect for me is subconscious programming. So what I've seen is in life, we're meant to split. And as you said, your asthma's gonna walkabout. This is why at around age you could be seven, eight, up to about 15, there's going to be a form of exiling that happens. It might be bullying at school and cast out of the gang, changing locations in the world, a divorce in the family. At this point, what I've identified is there's a subconscious program of I don't belong, which activates. So then we start to modify and adapt to try to belong as countering the I don't belong program. And I mean, it happened to me at school. I got expelled, My dad went to prison. At 5, there was this. It was a lot of. A lot of identity based on I don't belong. Then when you get a little bit older, as you said, you know, going to university, that's another split which a program activates. Which is, I'm on my own now. If these aren't dealt with properly, what happens is we start to see the world through the eyes of a threat. And then life is dangerous, becomes the way we see the world. Then we start to modify, we start to suppress, we start to not speak our truth. You know, we've all been through this in the last five years around speaking up, right? We will start to become part of the herd, part of the crowd, and then we'll just want to fit in, all to try to counter the very things that got us into that position in the first place. So the psychological subconscious aspect is around that. And that's what we need to start identifying as the independent self, independent of the mother and whatever happens in the womb. Then emotionally what we need to do as well by becoming gender opposite is actually learning the art of containment. Starting to be contained with our emotions not spilling out everywhere, not folding at the slightest inconvenience. I just posted in my stories yesterday, a guy that I don't know if it was his girlfriend or a friend guy came up to robber with a knife and he just left her alone to get robbed and he ran off and all these other men came over and saved her. You know, this is someone that's emotionally and feelings led. What I've seen is that if. If a man is continually feelings in his feelings all the time and led by his feelings, what's going to happen over long term that creates more rumination and anxiety. Testosterone drops and cortisol goes up, so he becomes essentially more feminine and less male in that. In that construct. Yerasimos 00:34:21.620 - 00:35:01.730 Hey, Jack, what do you think about this? Because I'm trying to relate it to myself that when big things happen that like, I feel like I'm like a Zen master and I handle it, but it's like little shit that annoys the fuck out of me. Like, like my Internet stops working and things like that. And that's the stuff where I feel like I get a little bit more emotional. But like, when fires are encroaching on our home in Topanga this past year, I'm like, cool, handle it. I hike back, I'll be in my home, I'll handle it if the fire comes. But then like the little shit is the stuff that just gets under my skin. And I'm curious if you see that often, is it a masculine thing or is like. Obviously there's probably some areas that I need to kind of grow. Grow, you know, Grow? Jag 00:35:03.090 - 00:35:37.180 Yeah. I mean, daily stresses happen. But I would say that who cares about the little stuff. If you're solid during a fire in a life threatening situation, that's all that matters. That's when it counts. Because if it's not life threatening, it's just ego threatening. And if it's ego threatening, it's like, yeah, cool, like my Internet's not working or, you know, they gave me the wrong coffee. Like, that's luxury. Right? But if a fire is coming or someone's breaking into your house. Happened to me last year. Two guys tried to break into my house and I just kind of went stone cold and chased him out. But if someone cuts me off in traffic, I'm like, you like that? All right, cool. Yerasimos 00:35:37.180 - 00:35:52.540 I mean, I, I figured, but I'm just like. Because there's these things that happen during the day, man, like road rage and like, just like bitching or complaining, like, just because, I don't know, like, I want to. It's a luxury, I guess. But like, when it hits the fan, it's like, okay, it's go time and I feel solid. So. Joel 00:35:52.540 - 00:35:52.980 Okay. Jag 00:35:53.460 - 00:36:00.940 Yeah, when it counts, it counts. It's like hard times don't create character, they reveal it. Okay. That's the most important one, in my opinion. Joel 00:36:01.660 - 00:37:02.660 Yeah, I won't, I won't push the buttons here. Moving on. I want to ask you a question. So, yeah, what we're talking about when it comes to. This enmeshment with the mother, how does this carry forward in, like, the general masculine dynamics where, like, men basically live their lives, like, please women, in a sense. And it's like we've become so feminized in a way and so soft in a way that like, it seems for the majority, like the woman sets the rules or the container even unconsciously. Like a man, like, has withdrawn himself so much and like, constantly diminishes himself just to not push her buttons or to like, keep things at a certain level of peace or civility, even when peace or civility might not be warranted anymore? Jag 00:37:03.300 - 00:38:25.680 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. It's what we've been trained to do. You know, we see it all the time. I get it in my comments all the time. I want a man that's emotionally available and emotionally deep and connected and is able to be in his feelings. I'm like, then you want a girlfriend? Women have been told to fear masculinity through narratives. I mean, we've seen this. You know, masculinity is seen as the oppressor and the feminine is the oppressed. When it's just, it's not that simple, you know. And a lot of you look at psychology degrees now. A large part of its critical theory and Marxist ideology, the narratives are just rampant in our society. And so men, in order to essentially get sex or validation or attention from the woman, thinks that bowing to the woman is what they want. When it's not. They'll just, their biology will switch on and they'll just go to the man that tells them no. That's why they, most women or modern women go for the bad boys. They like the bad boys because they can't be tamed, they can't be controlled. They're solid in themselves. They have their no. And the woman goes, I'm going to follow this guy while you've got some other guy that works for five years to try to get into a relationship with her and she'll go and sleep with a dude and have a one night stand. It was really, it was so good. There was this, people kept telling me to watch Love is Blind this Modern season, whatever. And there was this, the us. Joel 00:38:26.000 - 00:38:26.400 Us. Jag 00:38:26.960 - 00:38:49.010 Us one. Yeah, the dumpster fire that was like the most recent season. And you can tell they psychometrically tested people to match him up. And there was a social worker that got matched up with a guy that was raised in foster home. And you see them in bed talking about this because she won't sleep with him. And then he starts crying and losing his shit. Joel 00:38:49.330 - 00:38:51.410 Oh yeah, I watched this season. Jag 00:38:52.050 - 00:40:08.690 Yeah, this is, this is the nature of it. And, and he thinks that pandering and she's like, crying is strong, emotions are strong. But yeah, okay, cool, she's not going to sleep with you. And then she tells him about guys in the club that she's met that she slept with that didn't mean anything. And it's like, this is everything I've been saying. Like the biology is going to go towards the strong men. That's what the women want. And if you're crying all the time and emoting and acting like a child and he was very manipulative, that guy too. He was using emotions to manipulate. It's not going to win over the woman and it's not going to fall into a natural biological state. But because, you know, a lot of boys now, they come from single mother households. Exposure to too much feminine energy is, has a major impact on boys and women just don't want to hear it. They think that all the bad comes from the masculine when statistically the evidence shows that the biggest threat to our boys is an overexposure of Feminine energy. You got movies like Disney and all that, which are all woke. You've got narratives which are of a similar vein. You've got therapists. 80% of them roughly are female. 70% of teachers are female. It's that we're in the great feminization and only biology can steer us back to the right way. And men are convinced psychologically that that's what's going to work and it doesn't. Joel 00:40:08.930 - 00:40:32.170 Yeah, I want to, I want to drop a. Probably quite a triggering quote from Patricia Pearson. She says women commit the majority of child homicides in the United States. A greater share of physical child abuse, an equal rate of sibling violence and assaults on the elderly, about a quarter of child sexual abuse, an overwhelming share of the killings of newborns, and a fair preponderance of spousal assaults. Jag 00:40:32.890 - 00:40:34.370 Yeah, we don't hear about it. Joel 00:40:34.370 - 00:40:35.210 We don't hear about it. Jag 00:40:35.610 - 00:42:24.890 No. I've been saying it for years, man. I've been saying this for years. Child welfare.org like go to child welfare.org, the NIS. I've been saying it for years, man, but no one wants to listen to me about it. The statistics are out, like the biggest threat to children and women. So we talk about, you know, and this isn't to say this doesn't like, alleviate the stuff. Right. This doesn't make it okay what men have done by. No, no stretch of the imagination does it mean, oh, you've done this. So we're okay, like they like to do. But we have to look at the, the statistics and the facts of it. And it's this kind of stuff where I've been saying it. It's just, it falls on deaf ears. And you'll present this to the mothers and they just don't want to hear it. You know, they're the biggest abusers of children of the mother. So we look at women are the more vulnerable sex, but then they're committing the crime against the most vulnerable. Overwhelmingly, there was the America first policy, which I was looking at recently. 85% of youths in jail come from single mother households. 55% of them reoffend. Like you, like I said to a woman, she's like, you guys are raping and killing us. And I'm like, yeah, well, you're raising them. You know, you've got to look at the effect of what's happening. And that's not 100 universal, but we've got to look at where these men are coming from. Because a large percentage of them come from single Mother households. And it's not to put all single mothers in with the ones that don't look after their children. But, you know, that quote sort of sums it up, and it was great. That's from a woman. Because if a man says it, it's like the witch hunt goes on and the sisterhood goes after you, man. The sisterhood is one of the greatest threats to women. No one hates women more than women. No. Yerasimos 00:42:25.370 - 00:43:05.940 There was a book. I know Michael has talked about it. He's done episodes on Enslaved on it that was written by. I think it's Phyllis. Phyllis Chesler, maybe Women's Inhumanity to Woman. And I know Michael does his own analysis of it and things that he agrees with and things he doesn't. But again, it's like, it's. They don't. It's not something that women want to talk about. And, like, I think it's because men. Male violence feels more in your face. It's more overt. Whereas female violence, it's covert, you know, like, you'll have. You'll have, like, the woman like, oh, my God, it's so good to see you. And then she'll go, fuck, Fuck. You know, fudge your dude, you know, like behind your back, you know, so it's like, it's different than just like, seeing dudes punch each other or some, you know, more. More overt violence. So I think that plays a role in it as well, in my opinion. Jag 00:43:07.130 - 00:43:21.410 Yeah, it does. And I saw it with Joelle. I got with Joelle last year. And, man, her. Her own boss brought it up in a work meeting that she should be careful about being with me because her best friend liked me. Joel 00:43:21.410 - 00:43:22.410 It's a woman boss. Jag 00:43:23.130 - 00:44:25.950 Female boss in a work meeting said that this guy is very dominant and you should be worried about losing your independence. Her boss said this in a work meeting. This is not someone that has an employees. I mean, you can't do that for starters. Like, the amount of things that she crossed the line within that you could go to Ombudsman and get a payout for that legally. But to do that because her best friend was interested in me. Then her best friend went ice cold. Like, it was just. This happened multiple times when her and I got together, and it was like, oh, yeah, the sisterhood's good when you're in the clique. And I think Michael talks about this with machophobia, how they start to worship the feminine instead of dealing with the fact that they hate their mother or don't want to become like her And I just saw it and, you know, Joel doesn't work. She's super healthy. She lives a great life. And her friends are always like, well, what are you going to do with your life? What's your purpose? You can't just live like this. Like trying to take away or create doubt in her mind about her own happiness and radiance and health. Like, why would you do that to someone if you're a friend? I know, it's crazy. Yerasimos 00:44:26.270 - 00:44:31.470 Yeah, it's like, it's so manipulative, too. I think that happens within, within the feminine very often. Joel 00:44:32.670 - 00:44:39.150 The way the deeper patterns of, like, jealousy and envy operate is like, yeah, not spoken about enough. My opinion. Jag 00:44:39.790 - 00:45:57.860 Yeah, I think it's. You know, there's a really great guy, the Tin Man. The Tin Man, I think his account is he talks about domestic violence. That's his main thing. And he talks about Erin Prizzy, I think the name is. And she opened up domestic violence shelters for women. And she was like, they're way worse than men. They're way more violent. It may not have the same impact long term from the ability to hurt. But I actually, I worked with someone yesterday around this, and the woman said to him something along the lines of, you've got to take your beatings and shut up like a man. Think about that. Can you imagine one of you guys saying that to. Or one of us saying that to our partner? Like, the double standards. You want to talk about equality? Someone sent me a funny one. It's like 50, 50 on the bill. Like, what are you doing? 50, 50 in divorce. It's like, let's go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So these are. I, I do feel, though, over the next three to five years, we're going to see a big exposure of this narrative. I really feel that this has been a long time coming and the exposure of the sisterhood as well. Like, women will lead each other to hell. Like, it's, it's there, it's there. Joel 00:45:58.500 - 00:47:36.110 All right, let's. Let's take the foot of the pedal and the women for a second. You give them a bit of. Give them a bit of a breather. So, like a big part of also the problem when it comes to, like, men growing up and the initiatory process, like an actual lack of elder men who understand this on a deeper level and are able to guide the younger men. Like, who do they seek out? And I mean, Iron John speaks about this as well. Like, in modern societies, sons grow up to be highly suspicious of their dad because dad is out of the house all of the time. The child, for the most part, has no idea what dad does with his free time. Dad isn't there. And so there's this suspicion that arises about where is dad? What does my dad do? And for me, like, one correlation that I made in kind of diving into this is like, obviously conspiracy is warranted like this. The big part of this, the foundation of this podcast, is like exposing some things that are hidden on the in, in the external, but yet there's a faction of it that can go too far, which just seems hell bent and driven on, undermining all structure, undermining all authority, poking suspicion in any model, any system, regardless of whatever it might be. And I feel like these things are connected. Like the initial suspicion of the male drive drives and develops into this down the road. But anyway, curious on your thoughts and opening up this conversation in general about, you know, where, where are the sincere, grounded elderly men who have been through this process that can God and proper. Yerasimos 00:47:36.110 - 00:47:39.870 Rites of passage that I feel like don't exist in the modern world in the same way? Jag 00:47:40.260 - 00:51:16.070 Yeah, yeah, I think, look, that's a great point. Most of them died in war. That's the thing someone asked me a few years ago on a podcast, why is it, why are all generations so traumatized? I'm like, how do you traumatize a generation? You start a war. You send all the alpha males, all the strong males over to war so then they can't lead and initiate the younger ones. They're stuck at home, their father's leave. Of course there's going to be a collective suspicion when it's like I'm four years old and dad leaves me and goes to die somewhere else. Why did he leave me? You know, there's. I don't think that's so much conspiracy as opposed to fact, but there is also just the working thing, right? And it says in Iron John about that, where sometimes the mother will want to make sure that the affection is secured by the boy towards her, you know, And I think, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It's just we've got to bring awareness to it, you know, and rites of passage. I see a lot of men's groups out there. Most of the men's groups are operating through the feminine lens. They're operating from a feminized lens, which it's all about going to your men's group and crying and screaming and kicking and yelling and venting and all that sort of stuff. And it's like there's a real lack of men's groups that solve problems. That's what my one does specifically is we solve problems together. And there's a men's group, I think it's called the shed, where men will go into the shed and have a piece of machinery that they all work on and fix together. That's what we're meant to do. We're meant to go to war together, war together, shoulder to shoulder, fix things together, build things together. Masculinity is conflict, conquering machinery. That's what we're supposed to do. And so initiating the boy into self sufficiency, understanding himself independent of the required needs being met from the mother, which is just climbing back into the womb. That's it. It's sink into the amniotic wonderland of the unconscious rather than becoming conscious and into the solar, masculine, into the world of light. And we do that by fixing things. There's no greater thing to work on than yourself. It's the greatest opportunity. And where we've lost it is a lot of men now go into these rites of passage or quote, unquote, rites of passage. And what they're embracing is actually the celebratory mechanisms of different tribes where they're dancing around the fire and singing and all that. That was done after the initiation was complete. So in some tribes it might be, here's a deer skin full of psychedelics, go and kill a leopard. If I see you again, great, we'll dance around the fire. If we don't, well, then that was your path. But most people are just doing the celebration instead of the actual, the initiation. What I believe and what I've seen is that relationships are the new initiation. Modern relationships are the new initiation. That's why men have lost the ability to navigate heartbreak. They don't understand it fully. They don't understand how to process the grief as they go through it because it's, it's so brutal. Because they're splitting from the construct of the mother internally. So there's going to be a major identity shift as a result of that. So whether or not we bring back rites of passage, life is going to initiate you into that regardless of whether you want to do it or not. And that's usually done through grief. The death of father, mother, someone close, loss, financial status, identity and grief will be the byproduct of that. Through heartbreak, usually all three. And if you don't do it by 35, life's going to fuck you up and get it done for you. Because that's what happened to Me. And I've seen that now in hundreds of men I've worked with through this process. And looking back, thousands of people now that I see go through this as well at the same time. So life will come for you. Life will come for you one way or another. Yerasimos 00:51:16.550 - 00:52:25.050 You know, something I talk about, I've talked about in our community. I've talked, I may have brought up in the podcast before, but. Yeah. When I moved to Los Angeles after living in New York City for about a decade. Yeah, I was 30, 34. And I got into a relationship. I wouldn't say the healthiest relationship, but it was the first time that I was broken up with and it was after a really short term, intense thing, 34 years old. And that was a major initiation for me, you know, like, I don't. I would not be the man I am today for my wife if I didn't have that experience, you know, and, and dealt with everything that came from that. It was an eye opener for me. So, like, a lot of people ask me about some great experiences in my life, and that's in there. As much as it sucked, it's in there. And I'm grateful that I had the experience to, to allow me to take the next step forward because I feel like a lot of people don't go through that experience. Or they, or the, or they, they, they have the experience, but they don't handle it as healthily as possible. Or they turn to substance abuse. They keep distracting themselves and self medic to let me go into the fire and see what comes out after this. Jag 00:52:25.690 - 00:53:16.460 Yeah. And they try to, you see the midlife crisis in men. Crisis precedes evolution. And what will happen with men is they try to hold on to that boy psychology. And quite often, you know, I'm 42 now. You'll see men, they'll get divorced, they'll split from the family, get a younger woman, get the red sports car. All of that is to try to maintain relevancy instead of moving into, if we could look at archetypally like the king or you know, an elder position where they mentor the next generation coming up. What they do is they kind of, you know, they kick and scream and all that sort of stuff and try to hold on to their psychology, creating so much resistance in them, they often get sick at that point. You know, cancer might be produced or a major health crisis will come in. As you're doing that, if you don't actually allow yourself to move through the fire in the right way. Yerasimos 00:53:17.820 - 00:54:03.490 Hey, Jack, what do you what do you think? Like, an ideal way a man's masculine, woman's feminine, but then you have these women that are, like, their personality, like, for years and decades, they're, like, really masculine. And then you have men that are, like, more feminine. Like, do you expect that their just entire personality is going to, like, shift and change for the better? Like, how does that work? You know? Because I feel like there's just so much more nuance and variety in types of people in terms of, like, how would. How do they get into relationships that work for them? Like, is a feminine men all of a sudden gonna be like, rah, rah, taking the sword out and, like, going to battle? You know? So, like, what. What is the solution for people like that that are like, hey, like, I don't think you're gonna. You know. Do you know what I mean? You know what I'm trying to say? Jag 00:54:03.490 - 00:55:44.750 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, there's. And I think that's an important aspect to it. And this is what I say. I'm like, not every man is cut out to be a protective provider anymore. They're just not. Like, I think it's probably 10%, maybe 15%. They're the guys that I work with. I just. I like to work with guys that are in that space. It may not work for you. You know, there are some women that are incredibly masculine, and it's usually as a result of trauma, because generally a lot of people like that. They don't want to have kids, they operate independently. The men don't procreate. Nature just goes, all right, well, you're not in the prime spot to be able to procreate. Your programming doesn't work with the prime directive of nature, which is continuity. So that won't happen. And that's okay. Like, if it works for you and you're a masculine woman and you're the boss babe, and you go get her, and you want to be with a feminine man, have at it. Like, if that works for you, go for it. Like, I'm not saying that this needs to be for everyone. And this is where I think a lot of people get my message confused is, live your life, man. If you want to be single, if you want to be a hermit, if you want to live in a cave, if you want to do yoga and whatever, do it. I don't care. My message isn't for you. My work's not for you. But I know there are a lot of women that have taken on that masculine aspect that are tired, man. I get messages every Single day from women saying, how do I drop into my feminine to get a man that's more masculine? And how do I make sure I don't devour my son? Those are the two most common messages. And men. Women have had enough of men being that really soft, you know, overly emotional, which they admit. They're like, I encouraged this, and then I got what I wanted. Then I realized it's not what I wanted. Yerasimos 00:55:45.070 - 00:55:45.550 Yeah. Jag 00:55:45.710 - 00:55:51.150 And that's okay. But you got to do the work to kind of step up to want to honor your biology. Yerasimos 00:55:51.630 - 00:55:52.190 Yeah. Jag 00:55:52.190 - 00:56:47.720 And I think that. I think in Germany, medicine, I spoke to Brandon Bozarth about this is like, an alpha male is just a man without the distortion internally of conflict that's in his male energy. I think men have really lost the connection to their maleness to be comfortable in their maleness. You know, I've. I've had conversations with Joel. I'm like, I'm a protector and provider. If you want the fantasy novel and the romance novel, I'm not your guy. Not saying that she wanted that, but I make it very clear. I'm like, just. Women should be happy and satisfied with just a man willing to look after them and take care of them and not fulfill a role that's not meant for them. I had a funny message and phone call. I had this woman message me. She's like, my husband's strong. He's masculine, he's contained, he's all of this. But I just want him to be more emotionally available. What should I do? And I said, be fucking grateful. You've got a good man. How about that? Instead of trying to change. Yerasimos 00:56:47.720 - 00:57:15.020 You see, I love that you said that. Because you see this often in relationships where, like, a woman does have, like, a good man. He doesn't, like, beat her. Like, he handles his business. But maybe they don't have the same interests, or maybe he isn't doing consciousness work, or he isn't, you know, emotionally available in the same way. And it's like, people blow up their lives for this. Because I've had conversation with friends of mine who have done that. And then what's on the other side is kind of like, brings more misery into their life. Jag 00:57:15.480 - 00:57:15.640 And. Yerasimos 00:57:15.640 - 00:57:25.000 And I've heard them say, oh, man, I wish I didn't, like, leave my husband. Now I get it. There's a fine line there. But I just, I. I kind of like, like what you said. Like, be grateful. Jag 00:57:25.560 - 00:57:26.040 Yeah. Joel 00:57:26.120 - 00:57:29.160 I love how your ass definition of a good man is, he doesn't beat her. Yerasimos 00:57:30.280 - 00:58:03.450 Well, I just Mean, listen, I would just. It doesn't beat you, like, he's a good father. Like, maybe you don't have the same interest. Maybe he doesn't want to get a human design reading, or he doesn't want to, you know, do the things that you're into, you know, and so I think, like, I think women are fed these things of what their man needs to be and need to tick every single box. And again, and it's like, well, just do your thing, focus on your. And let your man be. Be a man. You know, as a general rule, like, I know it's more nuanced this than this, but still. Jag 00:58:05.770 - 00:58:07.760 Yeah, I agree. You're gonna say something, Joel? Joel 00:58:08.150 - 00:58:18.310 Well, I was gonna just, I guess, beg the question. Like, this whole concept of a man being emotionally available for his wife, like, what is the right dose? I guess. Jag 00:58:19.990 - 00:58:42.220 Yeah. So the way that I. I look at that is being have the space where you can be contained and non reactive while she goes through her emotions, not spilling out with your emotions. I do this with Joelle. I can tell when she needs something and I'm like, what's going on? And she's like, oh, nothing. I'm like, come here. And I just get her to sit on my lap, she'll have a cry and then I have a laughing within three to five minutes. Joel 00:58:42.540 - 00:58:42.980 Yeah. Jag 00:58:42.980 - 00:59:52.620 I don't make it about trying to fix her. I don't be like, I need you to hold space for me now. If you're in a place where you have to say to your woman, I need you to hold space for me, go get a coach, go get a therapist. That's that. If you're in that space, that's where you should go. Or you're acting like a little boy and expecting her to be your mum. So I think it's about emotionally available is actually being available for her emotions without taking it personally. Every really solid man that I've met doesn't take a woman's emotions personally. That's where I think it comes down to it. And what happens if you want to do it from a masculine perspective? I'm like, yeah, look, I'm frustrated or, you know, I'm feeling this at the moment. This is going on for me, but I'm going to go do this to fix it. I need an hour and I'll come back to you. That's taking action. Testosterone goes up from that. So it's. When we conquer that conflict, that's what I think is the best thing for men. But what I find is Women that want men to be really emotionally available and open all the time, generally, they had a father they couldn't trust, and so they're seeking certainty and safety through predictability with the man rather than trying to guess because they grew up in an environment that was unpredictable. Yerasimos 00:59:53.910 - 01:00:22.480 Yeah, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there. It's like, it's just about communicating, too. You don't need to, like, wallow in your emotions, but, like, hey, like, I'm dealing with some right now. I got it. I'm handling it. I gotta go do what I gotta do. Like, I feel like that's a level of emotional availability as opposed to, you know, my man doesn't say anything to me at all, ever. I have no idea what's going on. Like, and so just. I think just being able to. Make a statement and communicate that, I feel like very often is enough. Jag 01:00:23.360 - 01:01:16.430 Yeah, I agree with that. And I think that's an important point, is that women say it now, black and white. If he's not endlessly emoting, he's somehow suppressed. It's like our biology works differently. Our pathways are denser. You know, one of the things that I've heard is when a woman's transitioning to a man, when they're given hormones, they're taught, they're warned. They say, well, and this, I could be wrong, but I've heard this from people, so I'm not an expert in this. They say your emotions are going to be blunted significantly, so you need to be prepared for that. And it's. We don't feel emotions as intensely as a woman, and that should be honored in the woman, but it also should be honored in the man. That we just don't process things the same way. Operates from a different part of the nervous system, different part of the brain. Like, if we honor each other's differences, we'd have an easier time understanding each other instead of trying to make the other person similar to us. Sameness doesn't create polarity. Joel 01:01:19.390 - 01:01:46.830 Is there. Like, it feels like there's the real potential for, like, people to get so overwhelmed with these relationship conversations. You know, like, there's I'm so fucked. Or there's so much for me to kind of hold in the tension of opposites, to kind of be this way and shift this way and like, it does. It doesn't feel like in some capacity, like, this conversation can be so complex when it comes to how to healthily relate in relationships. Jag 01:01:47.790 - 01:03:20.010 Yeah, look, I do agree, because there's a lot of pop Psychology out there, which has done more damage to relationships, in my opinion, than good. Everyone out there is, meet my needs, meet my needs. You've got to meet my needs. And I just tell people, do the opposite. Just me. Just what does your partner want? The one thing that they want. And just meet that every day. Joelle has no upper limit for touch and affection. So I make sure every day I touch her, I make her feel special. I tell her she's beautiful every day without fail. And I give her time. So we might take the dog for a walk at night. We'll do it every day. I make sure we do a date. A date type of thing every day. She gets the attention she needs. Then she's like, okay, you can go do your thing with me. It's words of affirmation and acts of service. I love it when she makes food for me. I wake up in the morning when it's early and there'll be breakfast. She'll make my water for me. Whatever it is, those are the things that mean the most to me. So we build our relationship around single structures. We have one shared value, which is peace. We have one shared vision, which is family. We have one shared purpose, which is clean up anything from childhood. That's it. Relationships don't have to be that complicated. It's. I feel it's when we're projecting all our trauma onto the other person. That's where it becomes difficult. When you don't know where you're going, you don't know why you're in it, you don't know what's in your history, then. Yeah, like, relationships is going to surface, all of that. But when you work as a team and you're like, we're going to confront this together as opposed to against each other, I just find it's a much easier way to do things. Joel 01:03:20.250 - 01:03:20.690 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:03:20.690 - 01:03:29.690 Hey, Jack, did you always want to be a husband and be a father, or is it something that you grew into as you continued your own work and healing? Jag 01:03:30.250 - 01:05:41.100 No, I grew into. And one of the fascinating things that I. I read, I picked up king, warrior, magician, lover again. Maybe it was this year, last 12 months. And in the start, there's like a forward or an introduction, and it's about a psychiatrist that works with schizophrenic people, and he helps them to liberate the energy that they're going through at the time. And all of them are having visions or dreams about kings and battles and conquering and all this stuff. And what he found out is that they were Actually evolving from a warrior type of archetype into a king archetype. Once they went through that transition, the schizophrenia went away. Okay, so they were healed by liberating the emotional and psychic energy that was going on. What happened is when I got out of that last relationship and my dad died, I started to dream about kids, kings and battles all the time. And I didn't realize it, but once I got. I did realize it, but I didn't realize what I was in. So when I was going through a natural evolution of the. The psyche and I got through it, that was where I was like, the husband and father is the only thing left for me to really do. And it was in my being. And now that's going to happen. You know, Joel and I'll get married in the first half of next year and hopefully be pregnant by the second half of next year. And so it wasn't always there. You know, I used to be a playboy and all that immature boy psychology stuff. I used to run around with thinking that my worth was defined by material objects or status or martial arts, whatever. All that stuff that we need to go through to transcend. And as I was mentioning earlier, like, materialism was used to be a big thing. Now the most satisfying thing is being able to take care of my family. And that's where I think you move into either the king archetype, elder. I don't know. I don't really like the whole king thing because people think you're like, I'm a king and whatever, and it's a bit arrogant, but it's a. The archetype exists in the collective unconscious. And I think that when you get to that point legitimately, family, if you don't have it, is going to be something that really sits in your biological makeup, which is a deep, deep knowing that needs to happen. Joel 01:05:42.100 - 01:06:02.340 Yeah, yeah. I just want to speak into what would probably be bubbling up to the surface for those listening, because I loved your answer about simplifying in relationship with like, one shared vision, one purpose, et cetera. And not to throw shade on anyone, but the reality is, like, it changes as kids come into the picture. New stuff comes up, etc, you know. Jag 01:06:02.740 - 01:06:29.360 Which is, yeah, yeah, I think that's important that relationships are ever evolving. And one of the things I say is who you are last year. You should be different next year if you're actively doing the work. And I think that that's a really important point, that the family changes when new beings come in. Now I don't have children, so I can Only speak from theoretical. I know that you do, Joel, so you'd be much more handy at speaking to that. And I'm sure each member of the family that comes in the family then becomes different. Joel 01:06:30.320 - 01:06:30.840 Oh, yeah. Jag 01:06:30.840 - 01:06:38.570 So to think that things are static, that's definitely not the way that I see things. And the relationships are therefore evolution and healing. Joel 01:06:38.570 - 01:06:39.010 Yeah. Jag 01:06:39.010 - 01:06:51.850 Not just to satisfy your needs, your own grandiose needs, and be like, no, no, this is all about me. Which is most pop psych talks about. This is about evolution, healing, and continuity. That's what relationships are for. Joel 01:06:52.010 - 01:07:43.330 Absolutely, man. And, like, with that in mind, like, my personal experience is that the relationship is like an ongoing rite of passage. Like, it's not one thing. Like, the evolutionary process of it causes you to go through so many, you know, transmutative processes, like things that you can't even comprehend, which you're going to have to go through at certain points in time, especially if, you know, both people are committed to living as living and being as truthful and as conscious as possible, you know, and it's like, that's not a negative thing. It can feel really hard and negative in. In a certain moment, but it's like the descent is necessary at certain periods of time, and to embrace the descent as, you know, a very important and powerful part of the whole picture of what it looks like to grow as a human being. Jag 01:07:44.450 - 01:07:49.530 Yeah. And to go back to exactly what I said before is that relationships are the modern initiation. Joel 01:07:49.530 - 01:07:50.050 Yeah. Jag 01:07:51.490 - 01:07:59.990 So when we see it like that, we can see it through a new set of eyes, because I think the way that we're relating in the world at the moment is very image. Joel 01:08:06.550 - 01:08:16.630 Sorry, guys. This conversation was so fire that Jag's power cut out. Jag, welcome back. You were talking about relationships as the modern initiation and just expanding on that. Jag 01:08:17.830 - 01:08:55.710 Yeah. So I think I was saying where it cut out. I was obviously dropping bombs and system overload from that. That we address relationships now from a very immature perspective. And I think that's where we've gotten into trouble with a lot of childlike psychology running rampant at the moment. And we can see it with, you know, people just wanting their needs met before anything else. We see the rise of dating apps where people are just so addicted to romantic love that they just keep jumping from person to person to person with this high level of stimulation. And. And when things get difficult, they're just like, I'm out. Joel 01:08:56.110 - 01:08:56.590 Yeah. Jag 01:08:56.590 - 01:09:06.590 And I see that as a big problem in relationships now, where it's me against you, not us against the Issue. And it's very immature because people just, they just want their own needs met all the time. Yerasimos 01:09:07.070 - 01:09:16.270 Such an addiction to pleasure, it seems like in the world too. Like, it's like I need pleasure. I need more and more pleasure and if I'm not getting it, then I'm out yet. Joel 01:09:16.270 - 01:09:28.690 Yeah. At the same time, the world is becoming so much less pleasurable and like less sexual. And like, you know, you read these studies on like these kids nowadays, like they're completely not interested in like sex at all. Jag 01:09:30.610 - 01:09:46.370 Yeah. I mean, I think as well, with the rise of screens and blue light and disconnection from nature, lack of initiation, like we said, split up homes, loss of traditional values, disconnection from God. I mean, the social engineers have done a good job. Joel 01:09:46.850 - 01:09:56.460 Yeah. And by the way, when I said kids not being interested in sex, obviously, I mean like elder, older kids, like teenagers were referred to as kids now that I'm, you know, 35 years old. So don't take that the wrong way. Jag 01:09:58.700 - 01:10:03.660 Yeah, I think we, I, I certainly got the point. But yeah, like, we're so canceled here, bro. Joel 01:10:03.740 - 01:10:07.820 We're so canceled here. Between your assholes. Definition of a good man. Now this. Yerasimos 01:10:08.380 - 01:10:14.140 Yeah, listen, women, if your man doesn't beat you, you better be grateful and make him a sandwich. Jag 01:10:16.400 - 01:10:18.000 We're definitely going to get canceled for that. Joel 01:10:19.120 - 01:10:42.650 Hey, bro, so many people come into our world, women who like, in my opinion, like a really good women, like there's a healthy level of masculinity that's been integrated, which is essential in my opinion. They've been in previous relationships which haven't worked out, you know, that they entered into for the wrong reasons. They have a kid and they're single mothers. Yerasimos 01:10:42.730 - 01:10:43.090 Right? Jag 01:10:43.090 - 01:10:43.610 Yeah. Joel 01:10:43.850 - 01:11:01.770 And it's like, how does this kind of situation, how do they, how do they offer their sons the right dose of masculinity when it's not present and they're just going through a phase of life when it's not there and who knows if it might ever be there. Jag 01:11:03.050 - 01:13:43.000 Yeah, I, this is the question that I get asked, I mentioned before every single day. And I'm like grandfather, uncles, brothers, teachers, martial arts getting out into nature, there's ways to expose it. Masculinity isn't dead. It's just kind of sleeping at the moment. And it's, it's a really important thing to say. Okay, if you can get him into martial arts, do it. But don't stay there and watch him leave so he can become independent so he can go into and do his stuff and Then you leave and you come back and get him later. Being around other boys of different ages is very important as well. And I'm sure you guys know in tribes, we're not hanging around kids the same age all the time. You know, you go to school and you got 200 kids in the same year. There's not a whole lot of development. And except a bunch of kids at the same age at the same psychological development, doing the same dumb. Whereas if you've got older kids, if you're eight, then you've got a younger one, a couple of older ones, you get exposed to different levels of maturity, which is much healthier than going into the school system to do it. So there's always ways around it to be able to do it. I think the biggest thing or the most important thing is to help men understand that when the woman goes from maiden to mother, she becomes different. You know, there's probably going to be a period where you may not have as much physical intimacy as you want. Be prepared for that. You know, I've already started to prepare for that. When Joelle has our child, you know, it's like the first six months. And Joel, you'd be. Again, I'm speaking from intellectual and research here, not direct experience, but I'm prepared for that. Six to 12 months of like, you know, just making sure that those two are okay. I just go, you guys are taken care of. And that's all I care about. Most men don't understand that. And then they think that she's still the maiden when she's become the mother, when they're still. You could say there's the. The work around the internal anima hasn't been done, or the internal feminine, or the splitting from the mother or. Or the dismantling of the programming that starts to come out in that first six to 12 months when they become the mother. And they can be a repellent force to it. The woman can, you know, sit there and see that the man hasn't stepped up. She's become a mother, he's still a boy, and now she's got two children. And it creates a lot of disharmony in relationships. And I always say that, you know, it's. I mean, it's a big thing to leave someone in the first six to 12 months of having a baby. Like, that's a big thing. And when I see that, I'm sort of like, oh, this is, you know, this isn't good when they do. Unless they're obviously being abused or something bad. But A lot of women are just like, no, you're not stepping up to the plate. I'm out. Which is that self serving need or. Joel 01:13:43.320 - 01:13:45.959 Like, you know, the father flees, you know. Jag 01:13:46.120 - 01:14:11.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm talking more like where there's a willful separation as opposed to disappearance. Right. The woman doesn't have any, any issue with that. But at the same time it's like we need to understand what happens after. What are the changes that are going to take place. And most men just don't, they don't bother looking at that. Then all of a sudden they have a kid, they want to keep playing Peter Pan and she's become a mother and it's just this, it doesn't work and it breaks the family up. Joel 01:14:12.360 - 01:14:28.040 Yeah. What does it look like? You know, I guess leaning back on the Iron John material a little bit, you know, to kind of like re. Embrace the father on an archetypal sense for a son and like how can that benefit him? Jag 01:14:29.400 - 01:15:55.210 Yeah, that's a. These, this podcast has been great. It's probably my favorite one we've done actually, because it's this, this is so important and we have to firstly, if we're a man, become like the father we didn't have. That's the first thing that we really have to look at. The second thing is I was just working with a guy yesterday on this. His father was in and out of prison up until he was 13, then he died. And now he wants to help be around younger boys at around that 13, 14, 15, at that pivotal stage to act like a surrogate father in a way, just be around healthy masculinity, go, go hiking, you know, go fishing. Whatever the, the, the aspect of it, it doesn't really matter in the execution of the events that you do together. It's the exposure to the programming which is important. So we need more older men stepping up into wanting to be the elder, even if they're not fathers, but assuming the elder archetype and taking responsibility. And firstly, men have to be self responsible. A lot of men don't want to be self responsible anymore. They want the woman to do things for them. They want to abdicate responsibility and leadership. Men are built to lead. Men lead in care, men lead in direction, women lead in connection. And so when men actually take control of their lives and say no, no, I'm not doing this anymore, that naturally will start to harness the masculine programming that's already within us. We don't even actually have to do that much. We just have to stop pretending that we're someone that we're not. Joel 01:15:59.050 - 01:15:59.530 Yeah. Jag 01:16:04.170 - 01:16:04.490 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:16:04.490 - 01:16:07.850 I don't have anything to say, man. Well said, you know. Joel 01:16:08.890 - 01:16:50.630 Well, I mean, honestly, like, I just want to say it, even though it's obvious, but it's like, I just want to encourage, like, as a call to action for, like, all men to be, like, really conscious of how important this is in terms of how they relate to other men and particularly younger men that they're connected to and to embrace these qualities and to embrace sincerity and so, like, really, like, be stewards of, like, holding the flame of archetypal masculinity in culture and in society. Like, just as, you know, an actual call to actions, like, make this a conscious effort in one's life. I just think it's paramount. Jag 01:16:51.590 - 01:20:34.750 Yeah. 100, man. And it'll come through. It will happen. Nature will force it upon us to. To correct, you know, nature will always clean up the most wounded parts of itself. And the most wounded part at the moment is the human being. And so nature's going to nature and life, God, whatever your word is for it, I think it's all synonymous, really, is going to initiate you if you're meant to be doing that. So the masculine programming, it's like, get comfortable with it again, doesn't mean you need to have kids. It doesn't mean you need to be an alpha male protector. And there's a reason why a lot of the social narratives go after the red pillman or red pill alpha bros. It's like when people say that they probably haven't read the Body of Work because I can't remember who said it. It's like every movement starts as a movement, then it becomes a business, then it becomes a racket. And so, like feminism and red pill, the ideology in and of itself at its fundamental roots, isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's what people have done with it that has become the problem. You know, red pill is a praxeology. Feminism is about equal rights and what it turns into when you start to use the movement to prey on the wounds of the person. And that starts to become an issue. Like, I'm unapologetically male. I like being a man. I love being on purpose. I absolutely love taking care of my woman and being a protection provider. I don't give a fuck if people think that that's controlling or it's toxic. That's toxic. Cool. I'm toxic. Great. I'm not going to listen to someone that's not willing to take up those attributes as a way to try to demonize me because they can't fulfill the role. And generally what I see, the people that tear it down about a bad experience with men. So it's like it's all men that are bad when they've probably dated five men in their life or 10 men, and then all of a sudden every man's bad. Or the men that are doing it, they can't step up to the plate, they can't be the protector, they can't be the provider. So the only thing they can do is tear it down because the admittance of their own failure is too big to take on. So they have to make it the failure of men. And if you're a man that wants to do it, honor your biology, honor your masculine psychological programming. I think masculinity is just the psychological software of the male biological hardware. When that's in harmony, that's what I see. The male representation will start to come out. You can integrate the feminine aspects. And I believe that life is about integration. But there's a reason why, in my opinion, you know, when people say I've got to balance my feminine and masculine energies and you know, we're just one and all that, I think there's a dominant one in each person. And I think that if it was all about just pure feminine masculine, then why can't you self impregnate, just be self sufficient beings, you know. So biology has created a separation for a reason. And that's what I look to. I look at what's in front of me. So honoring your biology as a man will make you feel good. Like I love it when, you know, I see Joey thriving or she's making her flowers and stuff like that. Like passion is a big, a big thing for me to see in a woman. It's not ambition, but it's passion. And so when she's passionate about something, like she loves flowers, she's very feminine. So when I see her in the garden doing flowers or doing something she loves that I'm like, my job is done, I'm good for today and then I'll get up and do it again tomorrow. It's great to look after a woman. Not every woman's some gold digger that just wants to marry you and take your money. And if that's your lens, it's kind of the same as women that say all men are rapists, all men are killers and all that sort of stuff. That's not true either. You know, there's nuance to this and we're complex beings and when we take a reductionist angle means you got work to do. So. Yerasimos 01:20:34.750 - 01:20:50.550 So, Jag, speaking of the nuance, so from a psychological standpoint, you mentioned earlier, like the integration of the. The enema, like if a man healthily integrating, let's say, the feminine aspect, what does that look like, you know, to you? Jag 01:20:51.030 - 01:21:56.300 Containment. Okay, so it's containment. Containment is your capacity to be with difficult things when not spilling out onto those around you, remaining calm. And one thing that does grind on me a bit is how stoicism gets a bad rap. The people that criticize stoicism don't understand stoicism. It never says repress your feelings in it. It doesn't say that anywhere. It's to become a master of your emotions. So you can still be stoic while going through a big difficult thing. You can still act stoic while you're in a difficult circumstance. And I think that that's a big important part of containment, is being able to communicate and have the relationship, we could say, with your inner animal or your feelings or emotions, whatever. So this is what I'm feeling right now. This is what I'm going to do about it. I don't want it to spill out on you or in a exchange, say, hey, look, I get it, but I'm not going to continue indulging this with you because it's just going to keep going and keep going, and I'm not going to allow that right now. Now it's about being contained. So when the man is contained, he becomes, in my opinion, trustworthy because he's consistent and reliable. That's. These. These are hardwired traits of masculinity, in my opinion. Joel 01:21:56.700 - 01:21:57.340 Well said. Jag 01:21:57.980 - 01:21:58.700 Thanks, man. Joel 01:22:00.780 - 01:22:07.180 Not a question. Important question. It's escaped me right now, lack of containment. Yerasimos 01:22:07.580 - 01:22:10.380 Jack, are you still practicing jiu jitsu? Joel 01:22:11.430 - 01:22:11.670 No. Jag 01:22:11.990 - 01:24:46.880 This is awesome question. No, I stopped two years ago, and right when I hit 40, I tore my ACL, did a 7 centimeter bucket handle tear in my meniscus, got a baker cyst, and then injured my. The discs in my back, and then tore an adductor as well. So it was like I realized at that time the biggest struggle I was going through is putting down the warrior archetype. And so because I wouldn't do it willfully or psychologically, my body made me do it. And that was as I went through the big healing process. Really interestingly, and this kind of sums this up, when I first started martial arts, I was like 23 or something, and I walked into the gym and there was an Old school MMA fighter and he was in his 50s, but he would take on like, you know, the old MMA stuff where you could headbutt, you could bite, like hectic stuff. And I went in there full of testosterone at 23 and was like, man, like, what's the best self defense? And he goes, well, there's no such thing as an MMA punch or anything like that. You know, the different systems together. I said, yeah, but I want to know like from a self defense perspective, what's the best one? And he goes, don't be there. And I went, that's not satisfying for me. And then a couple of years ago when I got out of doing jiu jitsu and all of that, I went, ah, now I get what he's saying. Because it's like I've trained enough to realize that I wouldn't fight if I. Unless I was protecting someone, but if I had to protect someone, I'd be more inclined to get her, get them out of there as opposed to try to fight, because you increase the risk if you actually try to fight someone. And so that was very much part of the journey of putting down that quote, unquote, warrior archetype, because I was using Jiu jitsu to process a lot. But it was also from a place of fear, really, like, you know, a 15 year martial arts journey was from a place of fear. And it was to be like, yeah, okay, I'm going to get my black belt in Jiu jitsu and all of that stuff. Now I realize that, you know, there's so many other ways to be able to not fight, but Jiu jitsu taught me how not to fight. And as I went into the evolution of my own psyche and healed. Same with tattooing. Like, tattooing is a point of getting out your aggression. I've got an unfinished one on my back. I'm not going to finish that. Why would I put my body through that? Same as like, why would I get into a fight? Like, it's just dumb, you know, but when you're looking through the lens of the warrior, it's like when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So when you can fight, everything produces a potential threat. Now I don't see the world as a threat anymore. I actually see the world as quite a beautiful, peaceful place. And I want to bring peace into life. And that's why peace is the number one value that I live by now to the best of my ability. Yerasimos 01:24:47.520 - 01:24:48.240 I love it. Jag 01:24:49.440 - 01:25:03.560 So long, long, long. Answer to that is no, I don't do it anymore, because I don't need it anymore. Now my favorite thing is walking and getting into nature, being with my dog, being with Joey, getting up early, being healthy, feeling good. That's the stuff that matters to me now. Joel 01:25:03.640 - 01:25:09.720 I think. I think that's the actual answer to your question of what does it mean for a man to integrate the animal? Jag 01:25:10.280 - 01:25:13.640 Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Joel 01:25:14.040 - 01:25:28.450 Yeah. All right, man. Bro, such a pleasure. Thank you so much once again. Just a quick question. You're obviously with a woman named Joelle. Is there any, like, thing happening there, like an unconscious urge to want to be with a Joel, but you ended up with a Joel or. Yerasimos 01:25:32.450 - 01:25:33.410 Hilarious, bro. Jag 01:25:34.850 - 01:25:36.770 Man. We'll leave that for another podcast, though. Joel 01:25:37.090 - 01:25:37.450 Yeah. Jag 01:25:37.450 - 01:25:39.410 Yeah, dude. Joel 01:25:39.410 - 01:25:52.930 This conversation has been a wealth of value, man. I'm really excited for people to hear this one, for sure. Is there anything like. Enclosing that's present for you that you feel like you just want to get out as a general message? Jag 01:25:54.000 - 01:27:15.140 Yeah. Look, I think the world needs masculinity and men again. And I do think we're going to go back to a more masculine society soon because we've seen the madness over the last decade, and, you know, Yuri Besmanov and his subversion ideology, we've been in that, and I think people have seen the madness of that, and I think it's good to be a man. Don't apologize for being a man. Life will initiate you one way or another. You're gonna have to go on the quest. It's for the man to take up. That's. That's our thing. It's about slaying the dragon. It's always the dragon fight. So I think that what I would implore men to do is start to honor their biology again, honor their masculinity. Women need it. Children need it, you know, and we've failed society as it stands, because when men behave badly, everyone behaves badly. And society is a byproduct of men not stepping up. So by virtue of us stepping up, society will take a correction, which I think it's in at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised in the next five years if we see a major correction back to a masculine world. And you want to be a man that is able to step into that with responsibility, containment, and inner authority. And we need men to go back to understanding their inner authority, and that's by doing the work. That's the fight of our times is the war internally, not externally. And so that's what I'd like to leave with that Love it, man. Yerasimos 01:27:15.220 - 01:27:21.220 Appreciate you so much. Thanks for the work that you're doing. It's good to connect again. We'll have another podcast next year. Jag 01:27:22.980 - 01:27:24.380 Christmas every year. Yeah. Joel 01:27:24.380 - 01:27:27.140 Hey, bro, where would you like to direct your audience at this point in time, man? Jag 01:27:27.620 - 01:27:58.210 Just my Instagram, man. Pure Jaguar. Is it? Pretty much everything's on there. I'm doing a heavy focus on splitting from the mother at the moment. Surprisingly, I'm getting more kickback from men than anything else about it, which I never would have thought. I'm actually getting a ton of support from women, and men are like, yeah, your mother carried your worthless ass for 18 years. Or, you know, you're pathetic and, rah, whatever. I'm like, this is exactly why you need to split, because it's. That's an uncomfortable truth you're not willing to face. But, you know, I'm. I don't shy away from controversy, bro. Yerasimos 01:27:58.210 - 01:28:02.410 I think it's just mothers who have control of their son's Instagram pages that are commenting. Jag 01:28:02.410 - 01:28:02.890 Yeah. Joel 01:28:08.280 - 01:28:08.600 Awesome. Jag 01:28:08.840 - 01:28:10.840 Jaguar Instagram hit me up. Joel 01:28:11.240 - 01:28:15.320 Perfect, bro. Lots of love. Everyone else, thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Jag 01:28:15.320 - 01:28:16.440 Take care. Thanks, fellas.