Eyla Cuenca The Psychology of Birth

[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 1:46) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. I'm Joel Rafiti, I've got my co-host Yerasimos in the house as always. This is episode 108 and we have Ayla Cuenca returning. She first joined us back in episode 22 with my wife Alyssa Rafiti, in fact, where we talked about the medicalization of birth and the importance of home births. Today we're looking at the psychology of birth. This is a very important conversation around trauma, around infertility, around conscious conception and a lot more, which I think you guys will get a lot of value out of. Right before we get into that, our private membership community, Friends of the Truth. To learn more about that, you can head to friendsofthetruth.co to connect with us and to connect with other amazing individuals, all supporting each other through what's an incredible community. You get three live calls a month, you get to get personal with some of our podcast guests and it's just a really awesome space. So friendsofthetruth.co if you want to get deeper, Rise Above the Herd, round five will be opening shortly for those interested and we'll be making an announcement on that later. Guys, much love, enjoy this episode. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. This is episode 108 with the amazing Ayla Cuenca returning. She's a birth doula and birth educator and she has been red-pilling human beings all around the planet on the truth around birth for a very long time. She last joined us in episode 22. You can go check that one out for a deep dive or an introduction into this subject. Ayla, it's a pleasure to have you back. Thanks for being here. [Speaker 1] (1:46 - 1:49) Yeah, I'm so glad to be here with you guys. [Speaker 2] (1:49 - 1:51) Yeah, what's new in your world? [Speaker 1] (1:52 - 2:25) What is new in my world? Well, I'm in the midst of a doula training, so I have a really wonderful cohort of 10 women and that's been a fun ride. We started off the year 2023 with this training and this mentorship and it is amazing to see all of these women come together from all over the world and with this common thread of wanting to uncover this process of birth and this transition. [Speaker 2] (2:25 - 2:49) Yeah, so on the previous episode, we focused pretty heavily on the medicalization of birth. But I want to kick this one off on preparing for birth because most people just enter this process already pregnant. But when we really consider this with intention and how much factors into the health of a baby even pre-birth, how do we start that conversation? [Speaker 1] (2:51 - 5:30) Well, yeah, I'd say that there's just this generic focus on nutrition and perhaps a basic list, basic framework of the boxes to check, right? Like finding a good provider and maybe taking a class and creating a birth plan. Those are all kind of the basics that we use to guide us. But I'd like to take it back a lot further. If we have the opportunity to consciously conceive, there's a whole world there for the man and the woman to explore. There is an opportunity to do this self-inquiry, each of them individually, and then also coming together as a partnership. What is the self-inquiry we're going to do together? So there's these three things happening at once when you're consciously conceiving. You can walk that route. And a lot of that looks like addressing your own birth. And I do talk about this a lot because we go into this space of pregnancy and birth with a lot of limiting beliefs. And the way that we kind of suppress them or cope with them is by busying ourselves with the baby shower, the epidural, all the things that kind of keep us up here and in high control, deep control over the situation. But when we go into surrender, that's when we can start to access what's under here. What are the limiting beliefs? What am I feeling? What am I sensing? And so I like to invite couples to just go into that space of self-inquiry if they have that capacity before they conceive. If it's not planned, then they're in the pregnancy and they can do that as well. Since I talked to you guys last, I've been doing a lot of birth trauma processing with women and men and just going back to their own experience and kind of reevaluating what they used to believe as truth or the story they got. And they start to look at their patterning. And I say this is an opportunity for a pattern disruptor. This is an opportunity for us to maybe what you experienced or what you thought you experienced didn't really happen. And how can we change that? And as people start uncovering their arc since their own birth, they feel much more prepared for this experience to do it on their own. And they forget about all of what I call the busyness of the prenatals and the classes. They go deeper into what's actually holding them back from surrendering to this. [Speaker 2] (5:30 - 5:33) What are some of those key stories or limiting beliefs? [Speaker 1] (5:35 - 7:07) Limiting beliefs, right? So one of the big ones I've been working with the last six months are with men. They don't have the framework for fatherhood. They feel like they don't know how to enter the space of being a father. And they're kind of like, well, I'm just a spectator and whatever my partner needs, whatever my wife needs, like I'm just going to support her in it, you know? So there's a limiting belief, perhaps like maybe a father wound there of, you know, not having the template and then not having the confidence to then give that, you know, and not believing that they can do it. And so when we go back to their birth and we go back to the adolescence, we just look at like kind of the lapse in where they felt that that framework wasn't being shown to them, you know? And some of them did have absentee fathers, right? And so they grew up with a lot of women showing them how to move through the world. And so they say, oh no, but I had a really, you know, enriched upbringing and I was really safe and I had a lot of love. And I'm like, yeah, but there is this masculine template that is not there. And so how can we build that now? First, we acknowledge that it wasn't there now, like through building community, through brotherhood, through healthy male relationships, through finding a mentor, through understanding hierarchy, right? And masculinity and like where to seek support and not seeking support from your partner. She's not your mommy. She's your wife. Like, and so just kind of giving everyone roles really helps them build the confidence to show up as a father, you know, in this process. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (7:09 - 8:01) So like, what is in your opinion? I mean, obviously I'm a father of two daughters myself. I found myself, you know, quite uncertain in the, in the earlier years, you know, like obviously there's a, it's interesting because when, when the baby is born, particularly with the first born, like that's you, you're no longer your wife's priority. And I think that's what a lot of men deal with and they grapple with. And they, you know, you go into thinking you're going to be doing everything together, all the same things together, you know, the same relationship, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But in my experience, that's simply not the case. And what takes place is the men and the woman from that point have to go through an individuation process because they're deeply bonded up until then. And then like the, the third entity being the baby enters the picture and there's a, there's a new dynamic that's born. So like, what is the ideal role of the father in those newborn years, in your opinion? [Speaker 1] (8:02 - 12:01) Yeah, I just want to interject there. It's so important what you said, like you mentioned third body or, you know, third presence, right. As the baby, but really like there was a third presence before the day, which was like the arrows, right. The, what the, the man and the woman came together to create, which is this third body. And so there has to be sort of a, what I call like a grief processing of that transforming. So that's kind of closing and it's going to be reborn as something else. There's going to be another version of that. So there has to be an acknowledgement that that's closing. And a lot of people don't do that. They're like, wait, I want you back. You know, I want, I want to get that back. And there is no getting that back. There's only an opportunity for something even deeper and different. Right. So there's that component and that journey to be taken together. And so, you know, when, I mean, we could go into the more like anthropological and biological, like a role playing that happens, you know, with a new father and a new mother, but I'll kind of stick to this for now. And then we can go into that. The individuation process that you're talking about, you know, when, when there's this kind of resentment that can start to build when that individuation doesn't happen, it's because there was an imbalance to begin with often, right. In the roles and there were not defined roles. And there, like I mentioned before, there was kind of this codependency that can, that, that exists, you know, with many couples. And maybe there was a role the woman was feeling that kind of feels like that need for the mommy, right. For example, or like the woman, you know, she might have that, like dark mother archetype that feels like she has to control the man. And of course, correct him all the time in order for her to feel safe. Right. And so when all of that starts to kind of fall apart, and then you have this baby, it's like, oh, I, you know, like that dark mother energy, I was putting on him. Now I have to figure out how to like, you know, heal that, transfer that, do something so that now I'm available for my child. And then like, they see that the, the, the glue that was kind of holding them together was just like a bunch of projection and a bunch of like, wounding, right? Of course, there can be love there. But this is an opportunity to say, like, okay, let me reassess, like, where my needs are being met and how and why, you know, and, you know, if, if I truly love someone there, I know that they're on their own path. And so there is this kind of like, assessment that has to happen of like, I love you, and I hold on loosely, and we come together and we can write and we create a plan for how to do this. But like, I'm not here to control you. And you're not here to control me. And like, we have to figure out what our roles are. And so some people can can access that, you know, if they really consciously move into it. And some people, you know, end up separating, divorcing, like, childbirth really brings that out, it really causes one, it's like, it's like a hall of mirrors. And so. And so yeah, this is a great opportunity in the pregnancy to step into that is once the child is there, as you know, Joel, like it, it moves fast, and it's like, intense, and it's like all the time, you know, so I would say that, you know, the father when he can really figure out what brings him joy, and he can really tap into his purpose, and he can really see his essential role as provider and leader of the family, like and the woman can really allow him to be there and thrive in that space and give him meaning and value in that space. It starts to really balance the scales and everyone starts to feel really settled and surrendered and their nervous system can, you know, like drop in and things unfold naturally. But when there's a compensation, and there's a confusion about the roles, that's when you know, it's tricky. So we start to confuse that in the labor process. And in the pregnancy process, and you know, women are making plans, like, Oh, I'm going back to work after four weeks. And then the man's like, I'll stay home with the baby. And then, you know, there's a lot that starts to happen that really energetically confuses the family. [Speaker 2] (12:02 - 12:18) Yeah, you know, yeah, for sure. And I'm like, I've noticed there's resentment that builds on the on the woman's side as well. Like, you know, you get to go to work, you get to have time by yourself, you know, that kind of thing as well. And so what's the resistance on the mother's side on that end? [Speaker 1] (12:20 - 13:19) Well, I think in the individuation process that you mentioned that both people are going through, like, I often find that the woman hasn't found her worth, right? As an individual, she hasn't really embodied her worthiness. And we all have worthiness, right? But she hasn't embodied it. So for her to feel valuable and worthy, she has to also be participating in society the way that she was before, right? It's like having the job showing up, contributing financially, you know, climbing that ladder, so to speak. And so she'll, she'll say, well, like, now I'm home with the baby. And like, is this as valuable? You know, is this as valuable, like, he's not making the money, he has the freedom. And so she views this process sometimes as like an incarceration or a restriction. And that's really like when women have not, you know, it's hard, because society doesn't really value the role of motherhood as like, a top professional role to fill, you know? [Speaker 2] (13:20 - 13:57) When did that, like, the shift happened, you know, because I feel like we're coming back to that now, as you see people maybe wanting to go to more traditional ways of being, but when did the, like, the role of motherhood lose its, I don't know, importance, you know, where it was like, oh, you're, oh, that you're just that you're just a mother, you know what I mean? And we've moved to this place where it was like, focusing and I'm not saying women shouldn't go after what they want their work and their careers. But it's just like what you said, it's just like, it's not important. We don't place this importance and value on who is ultimately nurturing the future. [Speaker 1] (13:58 - 16:47) Right. Yeah, I mean, there's the entire like feminism psyop that has been like slowly weaving itself into our society for many decades, you know, and I'm not exactly sure at this point, like where the origin of that, you know, stems from. However, I would say really, like when we started shifting away from tribal life is, is when that became a thing, you know, I think organically, that's when it became a thing, because women now moved into cities were in order to be in the city. There was a cost, right? There was a price to pay to be there. And there was a currency that everyone had to have, you know, like the dollar, right? Like, let's just say, you know, in our country, like, they had to participate in society in a certain way, which did not allow them to commune. And it did not allow them to play the role that they were playing before in a tribe, right? Like in a tribe, all the women come together, they breastfeed each other's children. I'm really generalizing here, like cross culturally, this is what it could look like, you know, in a tribe of 60 people, like, all the women would breastfeed each other's children, they would all birth together, they would all care for the children. So you could step away for a time, and you would know that your child is being cared for as if it was the child of those women, right? With the same love, attention, and intention that we all need to do this, we all need to come together so that this tribe survives, right? And so the men had their role, and the women had their role. And so, and we live together, right? And so then when we move into these cities, we're living in these little pods, the women don't have the same support, they don't know who to trust, you know, everyone is kind of like under review, you don't know if that person has your same value system, so you wouldn't leave your kid there, and you're not hanging out with them. And it's like, that's how we started to splinter. And women, like, you know, women say, like, you know, yeah, I, like, I work with a lot of women who've been divorced, you know, and they're single moms now. And they say, you know, it's not about the money, if I got more money, it wouldn't make any difference. What I need is the community, you know, like, I don't need more dollar bills, I need like, the woman living next door to me, and then the woman on the other side that like, can come and like, see me and support me and reflect back to me and like, hold my children to, you know, and so I would say that, yeah, it's been happening slowly over time, as we've moved out of this tribal model. And, you know, and then more kind of like violently and intensely in the last 200 years, you know, where women were made to believe that their worth was financial contribution, and their worth had a lot to do with being equal to men, right? And we're not the same, right? Like, I'm sure you guys have talked about this with many guests you've had, it's like, we're just not the same. And we got confused about that. [Speaker 2] (16:48 - 17:20) I mean, the reality is, if anyone's looking to society to reflect their value back to them, it's a very unstable and shaky foundation to begin with, like man or woman, you know? Of course, and I see, like, yeah, like, the truth is, there's, it's the most valuable role. It's the most worthwhile role. It's the most important role. So it's like, how, you know, how do we reclaim that without having to need that mirrored back to us by a society that's obviously inherently unwell? [Speaker 1] (17:21 - 18:01) Of course, and one of the things that continues to perpetuate that cycle of like, women even rejecting birth, but then feeling this biological instinct to do it, right? But they reject it on this, like, psycho-spiritual level. A lot of that has to do with trauma from their own birth, right? Like, I've, you know, a lot of women say, like, I don't want to have a child. The thought of it is, like, repulsive to me. It's uncomfortable. It makes me sick. Like, it makes my body hurt. And it's like, well, let's look at your own birth experience. And how did your mother talk about birth? So now all these traumatic births are influencing a woman's desire to even participate in that model. You know, so that's, like, kind of coming from every angle, of course, you know, like. [Speaker 2] (18:02 - 18:07) Yeah. Yeah. But how, how important is the environment in which a baby is conceived? [Speaker 1] (18:08 - 21:06) And, and as well as, like, the mother's, you know, psycho-emotional well-being at the time where it's so important, so important, you know, like, I would say, like, yeah, sure. Conscious intention is really wonderful, you know, but I believe that, like, there's contracts already in place, and we're already calling in these souls at the right time that they're supposed to come in. So, you know, of course, it's like, let's conceive tonight, you know, and then there's also like, oops, like it happened, right? And either one is totally perfect and the way that it's supposed to be. However, many women have not yet addressed a lot that's going on within them, within their relationship. There isn't radical honesty about the partner that they're worth with. There isn't radical honesty about their own relationship to themselves, you know, and so I would say that a lot of these pregnancy complications, and Erasmus, you might know a little bit about this in your studies with German New Medicine and your exploration of that, but I just started this course on pregnancy complications through the scope of German New Medicine, and so, I mean, I'm like, I'm grasping, like, I've been going slowly through it, you know, and I'm like, okay, I think I comprehend 30%. It's just so intricate and dense and incredible, but so many of these pregnancy complications come from a woman actually rejecting this role of motherhood and feeling this, like, what we could call a separation conflict within her own pregnancy, you know, wanting the space, actually feeling now invaded, feeling now that, like, you know, she's being taken over, she's being hijacked, and that comes from something way before the pregnancy. It's not the pregnancy itself, you know, and so when a child is growing in a womb where the mother is feeling this on a subterranean level, perhaps, there's a sense of rejection that that fetus feels, grows up feeling, you know, it develops feeling, that's its nourishment. It's like, I'm here, but I'm not really wanted. I'm here, but maybe I was a mistake. I'm here, but mommy, you know, isn't available to me energetically, right? Like, we're such intelligent beings, and, you know, on the outside, maybe the mother's doing all the things, you know, but on the inside, there's, like, this dread, almost, of, like, my worthiness as a mother, like, I don't have time to myself, my body's being taken over, like, this doesn't feel good, and, you know, that's something that really influences the child, and then we see it develop into some severe pregnancy complication, and it's like, well, I was eating all the things, I eat organic, like, I don't do that, I do this, and I'm eating protein, and I'm doing my yoga, and I don't understand why now, suddenly, like, I'm having issues with my adrenal glands, or, like, you know, I have preeclampsia, or, you know, things like that, like, mystery, you know, complications, right? So, I would say the psycho-emotional environment of the mother is, like, paramount, you know, if not the most important thing. [Speaker 2] (21:07 - 23:23) Yeah, I mean, I would have to agree with you there, just in general, and we've talked about this before so many times on this show, and in different areas, but, like, you can't leave consciousness at the door, you know? It's like, oh, I ticked off the boxes, I eat the right foods, and I didn't go through these medical procedures, I didn't do this, that, the other, and yet, what is going on, you know, in your psyche, you know? How is that impacting you? How is it impacting this being that's growing during that nine-year period? And I may have even brought this up before, but I remember when I was at the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, like, 15 years ago, it was a nutrition program, but we were getting into some esoteric subjects, and somehow the conversation turned to the psychological state of a mother, and how it impacts the child, and this one woman got up in the classroom, was like, you know, a thousand people in this large hall that were teaching the classes, and she's like, you know, my entire life, I felt like I didn't belong. I grappled with suicide, all these different things, and then one day, I was talking to my aunt, and my aunt told me that my mother wanted to abort me during the whole pregnancy. You know what I mean? So, it's like, that level of intention, and the psychology behind it, and how it influences the child, and you bring up Germany Medicine, and yeah, there's so many factors that could be going on while the baby's in the womb, you know? Even things that have to do with large sounds, or some of the medical procedures, and how they impact the child, and of course, what conflicts are going on with the mother, and how that impacts the child as well. And so, you know, I think even in the alternative world, we want to like, blame vaccines for every single thing that goes wrong, or blame like, a certain, you know, lack of a nutrient, and yet, we don't highlight this very, very important thing on how we're, the perception of our environment. First, obviously the mother, but then this child is in an environment within the mother during this period, and navigating life, you know? And so, there's so many factors. [Speaker 1] (23:24 - 24:13) Oh yeah, and no, that's really brilliant what you said, you know? And apart from like, her psycho-emotional terrain, you know, whatever she's experienced in her life, we look at the bigger picture of the environment she lives in, and how that's impacting her every day. And I'm not talking about like, chemtrails and EMFs, I'm talking about like, a case study I just looked at where, you know, a war, you know, a woman in a war-torn country in Yemen, right? So, there's drought, famine, and starvation, right? And so, she developed a starvation conflict, which affects the liver, and the gut, and developed hepatitis B, you know? And then, passed it, you know, passed it to her baby, right? And so, for those of you not really familiar, I mean, I don't know if you want to go into your hostamos, how these things happen in Germany. [Speaker 2] (24:15 - 24:27) Anyone who's, yeah, and I'm not an expert by any means, we've had Melissa on three times on this show, we touch upon in other things, but I mean, you know, if anyone wants to, if you want to share anything, then share it. They can go to previous episodes, they can look it up online. [Speaker 1] (24:27 - 25:57) Yeah, I guess we could just reference them there, but the point is that this mystery disease appeared, right? And it was like, I've never had contact with someone who has that virus, I have never, you know what I mean? And it was something that developed in the pregnancy, because the whole time she was pregnant, she was wondering if there was going to be food, you know, because there was one day, but there wasn't the next day, would there be water, you know? And this is, this becomes a starvation conflict of like, okay, let's overeat one day, because we don't know. And also like the adrenaline and the cortisol that is constantly like spiking and dropping in these situations affects the baby, right? So we see babies even born with adrenal fatigue, when the mother is in fight or flight throughout her pregnancy. You know, so on a hormonal level, psychospiritual level, and then if we look at these really cool experiments, I've just been looking at the beta Austin did, I don't know if you guys are familiar, I think you are, but yeah, I've heard. Yeah, so it's just like the molecular structure of water is changing based on the nearest body of water, right? And so like, the woman is made up of water, the baby is in water, the baby is made up of water, there's water within the baby as well. And so they start to attune to the mother's molecular structure and her frequency. You know, that's just the way that it works with water. And so there's so many systems in place, there's so many elements happening all the time, that like, when we start to think like, oh, and you know, did I take my prenatal today? It's like, that is like, kind of irrelevant, you know? [Speaker 2] (25:58 - 26:28) I completely understand. And like, obviously, that's an extreme example. But like, in general, like, is this a lot of pressure on a woman to be so perfectly psychically and emotionally clean before I even think about having a baby? Like, does that factor in at all? You know, like, when's the perfect time to have a baby when my environment's perfect? But like, you know, I've done all my shadow work, and I've done all the inner child healing, you know, like, for me, it's like new level, new devil every day. [Speaker 1] (26:29 - 27:14) So I don't know about that. I don't think that there's like a state that we're trying to get to, I think, in the receptivity, the state of receptivity that we're in, and the state of awareness that we are constantly in a new level, new devil situation, and that we're available to transform. I think the availability to transform is actually what keeps us in the healthiest state and keeps our terrain in balance, you know, is the availability to transform, not just being in the state of a realized transformation, and just knowing that it's going to continue to unfold. It's the resistance to the transformation that creates the conflicts and creates the illnesses, you know? [Speaker 2] (27:15 - 29:18) Yeah, and I think also, too, is like, it's up to the individual to be like, okay, this is information, how can I take this in and not let it overwhelm me and go, okay, cool. Like, this is some new awarenesses that I have, and I'm going to do the best I can. And then life's life, you know, you know what I mean? There's there's things that we can't control. But what can we do to maybe make things easier or potentially easier? And, you know, this is where like, ignorance isn't bliss, you know, in a sense, where it's like, people, like, this is where self responsibility comes in. And this goes beyond just like, we're talking about the topic of childbirth, just how to live a better life, how to be more empowered, how to have more knowledge. It's like, are you going to let all the devils, all the all the evil things that are going on in the world, like, you're just going to stick your head in the sand or face it head on heroically and go, okay, cool. Let's see what happens. I'm going to do what I can. But then I got to keep moving through and do things in life. And, you know, I don't have control over everything. Yeah. One has to have their consciousness geared towards evolution, right? But when we can look at all our circumstances, everything that happens in our life, as as a utility to evolve one's consciousness, then everything has its benefits. But, you know, it's a very painful process as well. Like, for myself, like, Alyssa and I weren't perfect when when Valley was born, or when I was born, or I'll be perfect now, by any degree whatsoever. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, our greatest healing and work has come about through the process of having children, you know, it's forced all the shadows and demons out in our relationship to be addressed and to be dealt with when you're on this path of conscious evolution. It's forced me to build a business to become an entrepreneur. It's forced into, you know, a level of being that I'd never thought I was capable of pre being a father. So yeah, it's what's what's the attunement of your awareness? Are you willing to take everything in face the darkness face the pain and use that to evolve and to grow? [Speaker 1] (29:19 - 31:27) Yeah. And like, what, you know, a simple question, one could ask themselves if they want to start this point of inquiry, right? It's like, one of the one of the main ones we talk about is like, why do I believe that I need the epidural? Like, just as an example, right? Because, you know, women say, well, it's, you know, I don't want to feel pain, why should I suffer? And I've been told that like, birth is suffering, and why would I want to put myself through suffering, right? And so I say, Okay, you know, let's talk about holding discomfort in the body. You know, if what is our capacity to hold discomfort, our capacity to hold discomfort is equal to our capacity to hold pleasure, right? So as much comfort as you discomfort that you can hold, that's the amount of pleasure you can hold. It's like that. And so we start to do an exploration of what it means to hold things in the body. And then that's when they start to see like, oh, I just we do these processes together. Like, oh, I just remembered, like, an event I had in adolescence that I haven't thought about in a really long time. And that was when I decided I didn't want to feel in my body anymore. You know, and it can be just like that, like, it can happen in 20 minutes, just to follow this line of inquiry as to like, what is behind this desire to check out for the birth, right? And it can open up this whole world and say, like, Oh, you know, I wanted to dig this in this into this, you know, into the dirt, and everything about it again. But I guess this is an opportunity, because if I don't do it now, it's going to come up when I have a daughter, because she's going to be 12. When you know, I was 12. And I had the event. And so I'm gonna have to deal with it again, eventually, you know, so there's, it never escapes you. And, and if we look at this as the death of the maiden and the birth of the mother, right, or like, the death of like the night, you know, birthing into the king, it's like, that's what this process can be for people. But it is there's a level of self responsibility that has to be had. And it's not as complicated as we think. It's not like you have to go into this, like deep cave for many years and become a hermit to prepare yourself for this process. Like, sometimes it's just it can be like quick processing and acknowledgement of certain limiting beliefs. You know? [Speaker 2] (31:29 - 31:32) I don't believe there's any coincidence to the us, either. [Speaker 1] (31:33 - 35:24) Yeah, I agree. Totally. Yeah. And, um, you know, I, you're asking us, we had talked a little bit about free birth, and, you know, like, all the different options available to us. And I have found that like this conversation we're having right now about limiting beliefs, and, you know, accepting owner, you know, taking ownership over, you know, what I would say is like divided will really comes into play with a lot of the women I've worked with who free birthed, you know, and for those of you who don't know what it is, it's really just an option for birthing where you don't have medical intervention, you're it's like as low intervention as possible. A lot of people choose to, you know, just labor at home or wherever they are walk out into the woods, like you said, your friend did, and just let the process unfold naturally, right. But I have worked with a lot of women who say like, okay, I'm going to hire a midwife. Because I really want a free birth, but there's like a part of me that wants to hire a midwife, just like in case something happens, maybe with the newborn. And so they have the midwife, like this is one example, you know, waiting in the car. So the midwife waits in her car, and then the couples in the house, and she doesn't want to do look, she doesn't do as our interventions to and, you know, I just like I can't be at the hospital, not going there, there's no way, you know, and the labor starts to unfold, you know, and the woman's feeling like, okay, you know, like, when is this really going to take off, right. And this was an example of someone I worked with recently, and kind of similar, there's many echoes of this story that people I've worked with, and the woman starts to feel a lack of being held, lack of support, starting to resent the midwife, like starting to resent the husband starting to feel like where is everybody? And like, why is this taking so long, and not being able to hold this experience in her body. And then something happens in the labor, like maybe it stalls, or maybe she doesn't dilate, or maybe, you know, she starts bleeding, there's like some complication that arises. And she goes to the hospital. And like, she's greeted by this team of nurses who are like, hey, we're your support team, you know, and suddenly the woman is like, like, there's people here holding me, you know, and dilates quickly, labor progresses quickly, baby's born, you know, and there's this, like what I said, it's like this divided will where it's like, you wanted the support, you wanted the attention, you wanted that sensation of being held. And there was something like cerebrally, there was like this rejection of this system or of the support, because you felt like you had to do it this way. And so you just end up back in the arms of the thing that you thought you were rejecting, you know, and I see this happen a lot. So I would say, like, you know, preparing for the birth, you want to be really honest about what your needs are. And like, why, why do we need to make the hospital wrong for the home birth to feel right? Or like, why do we need to make, why do we need to make the hospital wrong for like the free birth to feel right? Or like, why do we have to make anyone wrong in order to feel right? You know, because it's just another form of victim consciousness. And so I do see that a lot with free birth. Obviously, there's many successful free births. But I find that there's often this divided will that comes up and that that rejection of the system, the rejection of the conventional model is kind of like the other side of the same coin of someone who goes like into the polar opposite of like, no intervention, no support, just me, like, I don't need anyone. And it's like, well, women don't really birth alone, they never have, you know, so what is this idea that like, you're supposed to be alone somewhere? You know, that's not how we're built. So. [Speaker 2] (35:25 - 36:06) Yeah. And again, I think we just this conversation keeps coming back to again, the consciousness and the psychology like you can be presented with these ideas and attach to them and go, this is what I'm going to do. But yet there's something else simmering underneath other parts of you that want other stuff, like even like example you gave, there's a part of a woman that wanted to be supported, but didn't have access to it. And was just operating from this place of no, I did this thing. I'm part of this group, I took this class, again, I don't know this person, you know, and so this is the decision I'm going to make. And that's it. Now, it could work out. I mean, I know people where it has and it's gorgeous and beautiful. And yet there are other sides to the story as well. [Speaker 1] (36:06 - 36:55) Yeah, there's just another dimension to that world of free birth, you know, and I would say, like, if you're considering it, it's like really evaluate why you're considering it, like, what about it is offering you everything that you need. And if you're feeling like you're doing it, because there's a rejection of the other options, like, this is an opportunity to explore the rejection of those other options, right? If you're rejecting home birth, and you have to be in a hospital, like what is what's there, you know, there's always something there. And whatever we reject, there's always something there. There's always a part of us that sees something in that model that is like, deeply triggering, deeply upsetting, you know, so what is that part in us, and we have so many parts, you know, and it's infinite, really all the parts that exist within and so yeah. [Speaker 2] (36:59 - 38:10) Where to go from here. Right, yeah, I want to rewind real quickly. You talked about men and women and having to revisit like their birth, you know, this what they've been through, and how they can go about like healing that so they can step more into, you know, who they're meant to be so they can evolve as a parent. Like, what are some of those things that you find that men and women are faced with, belief systems or personal life experiences? Like, you know, I'll be open and honest right now. Like, I've never felt a calling to be a father. And for whatever reason, yes, I did have a traumatic birth, you know, it was super traumatic. Almost, I was told I almost died during the childbirth. I was in an incubator for a long time. I was among premature. The doctor told my mother not to breastfeed me and, you know, a whole bunch of other stuff, not to mention circumcision and all that. And so it's like, what are these things that you found with the couples that you work with, that they've faced, that they've dealt with, that they've had to work through to maybe take the next step, you know? [Speaker 1] (38:12 - 39:10) Yeah, I mean, there's like a lot there. You know, I don't know if you're familiar with family constellation work, systemic constellation work, but I've been going to a lot of groups and representing there. And some people go back to the moment of their birth. I did that recently, like five months ago. We constellated the moment of my birth, you know, and it was really a next level experience. And I could go into it if you guys want to talk about it. But one of the constellations I experienced was similar with a man and he did not want to have kids. And look, full disclosure, not everyone has to have kids. You know, it's so funny. There's people who don't have kids and people are like, oh, why? You're like, oh, it'll come or, you know, it's like, no, no, it's okay. Like, we're good. I don't need the condolences. [Speaker 2] (39:11 - 39:42) But your asthma stinks for overpopulated. Yeah, totally. That's it. No, I hear what you're saying. And I'm happy that you touched on that. And I want to go back to what you were saying, too. But I agree with you there. It's like, is the one formula, the only formula to exist for human beings, you know, like, like, I used to think something was wrong with me. At times, I'm like, what's I don't understand. And then we Sophie and I, we get a lot of projections on from people that like, you know, if anyone should have kids, it has to be you two for x, y reasons. [Speaker 1] (39:42 - 39:44) I'm like, I have that thought about you guys. [Speaker 2] (39:44 - 40:44) Okay. Okay, chill, chill, you know, but like, you know, I'm not saying that I haven't had the thought but like, just generally, I haven't and not to bring make this about me, but I just want to share is like, is that I've always felt this within me. And then I've had like multiple astrology readings. And I've asked this question to these astrologers. And they're like, yeah, it's not really part of your path in this lifetime. It was in a previous life. You know, I'm not saying that I need one of these people to, like, to like, tell me how to live. But when you deeply feel something within yourself, and then you get like something like an affirmation, whether it's through human design, whether it's through astrology, whether there's other systems, it's like another, like, okay, okay, cool. Like this, this resonates, this makes sense. Because, you know, we're human, we can sometimes be pulled in directions, you know, people project onto us and, and societal pressures and familial pressures. And so to stay solid and who you are, you know, like takes a lot of strength. And sometimes we do need the support or the affirmation. Anyways, that was just a little side tangent, but you were in the middle of something. [Speaker 1] (40:44 - 43:23) So I could go off on that topic, as far as like exterior validation with these sources and these modalities, like, no, that's a whole thing. But I hear you. Well, in this particular constellation that I witnessed, he was asking that question. He was like, what, you know, my, my partner's giving me a deal breaker. Like she wants to have kids. And I just like, I'm not feeling it any like I thought maybe I would, but it really is not something that I want. And so he went back to like the few hours after the birth. And I thought of this because of what you shared just now with your story at your own birth. And he had a situation where he was separated from the mother. And the whole time during the birth, the mother felt that the father was not available, like the father was not going up to bat for her, like not protecting her not gatekeeping during this birth experience. So that was like her experience she was having, right and parting it on the on the baby, feeling abandoned by the father, like he wasn't stepping up. And then the baby was separated and alone for quite some time, like a few days. And he had these like memories and these kind of recalls of like, wondering where the father was like, who's stepping in for me, who's protecting me, you know, and it wasn't the mother, and it wasn't the father. And there was just this deep sense of abandonment. So for him, there was this fear, he asked, he accessed this, he was like, in the constellation, he was like, Oh, I, I just like, I just believe that like, somehow, I will not show up for this child, like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to, like impart that on my own child, like something is going to happen where I'm not going to be able to show up, I'm not going to be able to protect it. And like, I'll fail, you know, so there is this deep sense of failure that he had been living with, like on the subconscious level, you know, that like, he was not going to be able to show up, because he never saw anyone show up for him, in the moment that seemed to matter most for him, you know, so I don't, I don't know, ever know, like, I don't know what happened to him after that. But there are certain experiences that we have that create this imprint, you know, and they dictate they can dictate the way that we walk through the world and the projected delusions that we have that we impart on everybody around us, you know, and so he was able to access and take ownership, you know, and felt relief, where he was like, Oh, I see it for what it is now, like, no one abandoned me, like everybody was doing the best that they could. And like, I will do the best that I can and show up, you know. So sometimes it's just that that switch that can be flipped on for people. And like we were just talking about, sometimes you just don't want to, like, it's not your path. You know? [Speaker 2] (43:24 - 43:39) Yeah. And, and even though I say that I'm always open to things shifting, you know, up until this point, I haven't had the this strong inclination. And I'm open to it shifting, you know? So we'll see. [Speaker 1] (43:40 - 44:51) Yeah. And like, there's something big here, too, because, you know, like in modern dating, and the way that we get together with people, there is no like, discussion of core values. In the first few meetings, the first few dates, people just like, will connect, they will withhold in order not to lose love from the other person. So the other person doesn't lose interest. And it's almost just the one version of themselves is available for the first few months. And then that other, you know, we get comfortable and these other parts of us are coming in. It turns out, hey, I never wanted kids. Oh, you did, you know, but now we're locked in. Now we're bonded. Now we're living together. Now we're sharing a bank account, you know, like, we get into these complications. And we're just never shown how to come together with someone else and to compare core values. Because most of us don't even have core values, because our parents are not showing us a core value system. And so I think if we can kind of go back to that, of like, what does it mean to come together with somebody? What does it mean to compare these, these core values, these priorities, you know, and then see if we're a match. And if we're not, then like, goodbye, you know? [Speaker 2] (44:52 - 45:39) Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail on the head there. And I think so many people don't know what they value, because they've just taken on the values of the culture of society of their parents. And even just to have that conversation, or even to know that that's a conversation to be had, already brings you to a certain place of consciousness. And this is a subject that I've had multiple conversations with, with people around even just the subject of vaccines. It's just like, all of a sudden, people are together for three, four, five, six, seven years, and then they get married, and then they have a kid. And then it's like, Oh, no, there, I don't feel I'm not intuitively drawn to this. And then the other partners like, No, fuck, yeah, this is what we're doing. And you're like, Whoa, this is the, this is the potential for such conflict. You know, and I've seen like divorces and endings happen just on this subject alone. [Speaker 1] (45:40 - 45:58) Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, and of course, things change, right? Like one, one, one person in that partnership can go through an evolution. And suddenly their mind is I mean, this happened a lot during the pandemic, right? Like some people woke up to certain realities, and their partners were like, I'm not with you on that. [Speaker 2] (45:59 - 45:59) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (46:00 - 46:43) You know, deviation in the path. So like, it's possible that that can happen, right? But we can do the best that we can. I'm in our adolescence or young adulthood, accessing core values. And they know, we need the guidance to do that a lot of us just don't. But if we can access that, and then we come together with people, and we can compare and contrast and see where we go from there. But we're just so afraid of losing love. You know, it's like, we just don't want to express like, you know, I've heard people say, I'm not gonna let them know, like, right now, it's too soon. It's too I'm like, it's never too soon to have this conversation. You know, like, it's never too soon. That's how we used to do things. Now, we don't really have a structure for courtship and things like that. [Speaker 2] (46:43 - 47:21) And people are getting to this is, we've we've lost touch with the reality that truth is love. Yeah, you know, the highest path is always was true. And that's, that's the most loving part as well. You know, it's not about maintaining the passive comfortability of this connection between us. It's what's fucking real, because only by addressing what's real, can either of us tap into our potential, you know? And do we do we value potential? Do you value potential? Like, to me, that's what I value most, like what's possible, you know? And I always know, like, it's truth. [Speaker 1] (47:22 - 47:23) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (47:23 - 47:32) And for me, it's always been a process of whatever it is, I'm just ripping that bandaid. And so we'll see what we learn. You know, you're either here for the truth or you're not. [Speaker 1] (47:33 - 48:09) You're not. And like, you know, and when we come into partnership, it's like, you have to you also have to be realistic and say, I'm here for this person. You should not enter the partnership, if there's anything about them that you want to change. Right? Like, you're taking them as they are, right? And that's one element of it. The other element is loving and knowing that paths can deviate, right? So you're loving without attachment. And that's something that is really challenging, because a lot of us in order to feel safe, we have to control, you know, that's just the way that we have survived for so long. [Speaker 2] (48:10 - 49:09) So yeah, and even even if you start a relationship, initially wanting to change a person, because I think most humans on some level, you know, when they're engaged in a partnership, they're like, well, yeah, you know, you could do that thing a little bit differently. Or maybe you can behave a little bit more like me in that situation, because of course, I'm right. And it's like, okay, but can you recognize that? And can you move to a place of more acceptance of, hey, there are things that I have, there are qualities that I have, there are gifts that I have, there are ways of beings that I show that are different. And can we honor each other in our differences? And, and maybe learn from the differences, too, you know, without this, like, no, you have to take off all these licks, lists of these things on a list, and achieve your potential future success now in the moment for me to love you, you know, it's, I mean, all those things are true. [Speaker 1] (49:09 - 50:35) You know, the bottom line, though, like the basic formula is like, if a woman, I'll speak for myself, right? As a woman, if the woman doesn't feel safe, like authentically say, have you, do you have your woman cards for your woman? Is that a thing now? Don't get me started. So I, yeah, so you know, if I authentically feel safe, I'm not going to need to reorganize him. Right? If a woman authentically feel safe, she's not going to be like, well, like, in six months, I'll get him to start eating like this, or, you know, telling him how to drive in traffic, or, you know, saying, Hey, you know, you should do things like this, or you should resolve it. Like that's been going into that dark mother energy that I mentioned earlier. So if a woman totally trust the man's judgment, there's nothing she has to change about him. Oh, whoa, like, I don't know if I can do that. Well, then you're not in a balanced partnership. Because if you trust him to lead you, then you can surrender and do your thing. And I know, like, there's so much stuff out there. And I feel like it's oversaturated with like the masculine feminine, like, but I'm just saying, like, on a basic level, I see it all the time in the birth space. I work with so many couples, like, that's the basic formula. If you truly trust him, then like there is nothing you need to change. And at the end of the day, men really don't want to change anything about their woman. They're like, I just want peace. [Speaker 2] (50:37 - 50:54) And again, like from a masculine standpoint, like each man needs to look in the mirror and go like, Oh, am I am I doing the things for my partner to feel safe? And if not, how can I improve on that? You know, what about my behavior is making my partner not feel safe or not trust me? [Speaker 1] (50:55 - 52:54) Yeah, yes. Yeah, we're so I'm working on a course right now with an incredible somatic experiencing coach should be out in the next three months. But it is all about it's for it's only for men. So it's all about creating, like, the questions are, you know, ever wonder what makes you a leader? Like what makes a man a leader ever wonder what it would take for someone to feel safe around you, right? And all it comes down to is the man being able to hold sensation in his body, right, expand his capacity to hold sensation. And when he can do that, like the world can be falling apart around him, right? His wife can be in a swirl, she can be in hysteria. And if he can continue to hold the sensation in his body and access his own safety, she'll naturally just like, power down. But it's when he starts to mirror that hysteria, or he storms out. It's like, I can't deal with you anymore, when you get like this, right? That's when the woman, it escalates, and it starts to compound in the relationship. You know, like, I, like, I don't feel safe with this man, every time that I start to feel emotional, he runs out the door. You know, because there isn't a capacity to hold that. And so in the birth space, this becomes very important. It's such a good preparation for fatherhood, because you have to be able and men are not given the opportunity to ever really learn this. But in the birth space, you have to be able to hold a lot in your body and not feel like you're suppressing or you're, you're stuffing it down. It's really just like, okay, I'm like this infinite being, and I'm safe. And I'm holding all of this. And I'm kind of alchemizing and letting some of it go. And no matter what happens, I'm never going to like let her down, because I've got this and I've got her, you know, and that that only comes with really finding the safety in oneself. And when a man has an access, he can't provide that for anyone else. [Speaker 2] (52:55 - 54:01) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I hear you there. I think like finding safety oneself is merely a matter of connection to one's own vulnerability. Yeah. Without a doubt. Yeah, I mean, I find in my partnership with Sophie, like, those moments when I when I'm feeling grounded, and I'm connected to who I am, and if she's going through something, and I don't need to try to fix it, or tell her she's wrong, or get super defensive, which can be my go to because of my own wounding, you know, it's, it's pretty amazing how there's a settling in her and then almost right after, like, you know, thanks for being sweet with me, or thanks for being, you know, present with me, you know, and it's just like, okay, just a reminder, okay, that, that behavior elicited that response. Okay, let's, let's do more of that, you know, how does that feel? Because it really is very simple, like, a woman, I can only speak from my, from my personal experience, just wanting to be heard, and wanting to feel safe. And I, most of the time where positive results happen, I didn't do anything. I was just there. [Speaker 1] (54:01 - 54:02) Just didn't leave the room. [Speaker 2] (54:02 - 55:05) I just didn't leave the room. I didn't argue. I didn't try to make her wrong. I just was there. And there are there are required leaving the room. Just as a caveat, there are circumstances which do require leaving the room. Well, yeah. And also, also, like, sometimes you have to leave the room in order to keep you from doing something that you would regret later as well. And for engaging in some kind of argument, like if you don't have the capacity, sometimes, like, I think you need to remove yourself from the situation process, do what you have to do. And then hopefully, both partners can come back when they're a little bit more regulated and have a discussion on what went down, what the triggers were, and come to a new understanding. And I think the repair process is super, super important. And having that somewhat quickly, but even if it's not quickly, can you come back together? And can each party, very often, because it takes two to tango, I would say most of the time, take responsibility for their role in the interaction. And I think deeper bond, a deeper connection happens when that can happen. That's just been my example, my experience. [Speaker 3] (55:06 - 55:08) Yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (55:09 - 55:52) But yeah, it's, I mean, I'm happy that you're doing this course, you know, and obviously, I'm a fan of somatic experiencing. My wife and I went through that training. We've had Irene Lyon on the podcast twice with Seth Lyon as well. And I love the work they're doing. We kind of went into parenting and the nervous system in the previous episode we did. And it really is so important, you know, can you hold space for the discomfort? I mean, that's one of the biggest things that I think that leads people to addictive behaviors is that they're unable to sit with whatever the discomfort or the heavy, intense sensation. And it's like they turn immediately, unconsciously for most people to the self-soothing mechanism, whatever that is, to just not feel that level of sensation. [Speaker 1] (55:53 - 58:00) Oh yeah. We go into all of the like self-regulation, toxic self-regulation, right? Like vaping and porn, like we go into like all the options available to us, right? And we talk about dysregulation too, because a lot of people talk about like, oh, what the things to do to regulate, but we don't often look at what is dysregulating us. And sometimes it's just continuing to walk into the same situation or continuing to engage with the same person. This happens in birth very often when a woman, a woman becomes dysregulated every time she goes to her doctor's office, for example, or it's a midwife, you know, and she doesn't, she leaves there being like, well, you know, everything is fine. Like the results are fine. Like everything went well, but like doesn't actually acknowledge that there is a dysregulation happening just by engaging with that human being, you know, and doesn't give herself the gift of finding a good co-regulator in her medical provider or a good co-regulator in like, you know, the team that she's electing, you know? And that's why the blood pressure goes up, anxiety can happen. And then she's getting these like inaccurate test results. If she's getting tested for certain things in her pregnancy and it starts to create this full like web, right. But yeah, it comes up in parenting too. You know, I see it all the time where it's like the child leaves the infancy stage and they start to individuate a little bit more and more. And the child is expressing vocally and, you know, parents are like, this is so loud. I can't listen to this anymore. You know, turn it down. Like, and it's like that child is now realizing like, oh, it's not safe to express. It's not like all these things that I wanted to say and all these sounds that I want to make. And like my diaphragm opening and closing is like really making the people around me uncomfortable. It's not safe to do that, you know? And then the parent doesn't remember that when they were a child trying to sing or express that's what their, you know, parent was telling them because they didn't have the nervous system capacity to hold the sounds and to hold those expressions. And so we just continue to recreate that pattern with our own children, you know, and then, oh my goodness, chaos ensues, this internal chaos. [Speaker 2] (58:01 - 58:04) It's difficult to hold space when a toddler appears to be having an exorcism. [Speaker 1] (58:05 - 59:17) Oh yeah, totally. Especially in the car, when you're driving at night and you're alone in the car with like a toddler is like having an exorcism in the backseat and it's like, and I turn on the Enya, you know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I catch myself sometimes, you know, it's like, I'm so sensitive to sound. Maybe I'm vaccine injured, I don't know. But I'm so sensitive to sound and it's like, she'll do these like high pitched shrieks in the car, she gets like excited and I'm like, you know, and I just start to notice like words landing in my body. And it's like, and she's so happy, you know, she's like, look out the window. You know, she's looking at things and I'm like, I can hold this for you. Like, let me give my little girl the gift. So it wasn't being held for my little girl. So I'm going to give my little girl gift. I'm going to hold this for you right now. And I'm going to like relish in your pleasure, because I would have loved it when I was six years old if somebody relished in my pleasure with me. You know, I often go to that space and I invite people to, to just say whatever I'm going to give this child right now, let's imagine that it's also the gift I'm giving my little girl who never got it, or my little boy who never got it. [Speaker 2] (59:21 - 59:25) What's the correlation between unresolved trauma and infertility? [Speaker 1] (59:27 - 1:03:01) Yeah, this is someone recently said to me like, I don't understand how she eats McDonald's and doesn't exercise and she got pregnant on the first try. Right? I hear that aversion of that a lot. So one of the main, one of the main pieces we've been working with when it comes to infertility is sexual trauma. So there are a lot of dimensions. We can look at lineage, you know, trauma that's occurred in the maternal lineage, for example, trauma that occurred for the pregnant woman, you know, then she gave birth to a daughter, then that daughter can't get pregnant. So there are many, there are many entry points for infertility. And one of the biggest ones right now, like I said, is sexual trauma from a woman's own past, you know, and it doesn't have to be as like severe or dramatic as one might make it out to be, it could have been, it could have been consistent unwanted touch that was non-sexual, right? It could have been something that created, you know, that caused these kind of like gates to go up in all of the various energetic portals that a woman has in her body, right? It could have been something like that that also said, it's not safe. You know, when you're touched, it's not safe. In order to, in order to stay safe and in order to move through this world, we really have to shut down. We can't vocalize, we can't open this. And when we can't vocalize, you know, the cervix doesn't open. And there's so many energetic pathways that have been blocked. And so, you know, when we're looking at infertility, I invite women to like take a step back from considering freezing eggs, considering IVF treatments, considering like trying another diet or going on this like program. And I consider to consider, I asked her to consider to start looking at the trajectory of safety, like what we're just talking about, right? Like where is she accessing safety and does she feel safe in her partnership, right? Does she really feel that this person is going to step up for her? Is there really containment there? Does she feel safe in getting pregnant? Will she lose her job if she feels, if she gets pregnant, right? Is there safety financially for her? Like start to recognize where safety is compromised and where safety exists. And if it's not really available to you, if you become pregnant, then the body is going to just naturally reject the pregnancy. It's not going to happen. And so then we also look at the elements of, you know, touch that occurred throughout like, you know, one's lifespan. We look at the possibility that the current relationship that you're in is not offering you what you need. And so there's a checklist really to go down. And most people, after like assessing one or two of these things, start to find something there. And then they go on this path of self-inquiry and family consolation, german medicine. There are so many modalities that can assist us and guide us in this process. We're not meant to do it alone. Like healing doesn't often happen in a vacuum. Like there are modalities that we can call upon that give us the empowerment to then take responsibility and start taking action, right? And so it's not age, right? A lot of people think that fertility has a lot to do with age. We know now in the last 15 years that women don't ever stop producing eggs and you do not have a finite number of eggs when you're born. You continue to produce eggs throughout your lifetime. You're continuing to produce eggs until you go into menopause and you no longer, you know, have a cycle and are bleeding, right? [Speaker 2] (1:03:02 - 1:03:10) No, is that just another, is that another myth where it's like, oh, you're at risk pregnancy because you're 42 years old. [Speaker 1] (1:03:10 - 1:04:54) Oh, totally. Oh my God. Yeah. It's like when you enter your mid thirties, so like specifically age 36, some people say age 35 is when you enter the territory of a geriatric pregnancy. And that's when you're like, well, you're going to have to come get an ultrasound every two weeks instead of every four weeks because you're high risk. And it's like, well, what's the risk? Well, you're just, you know, yesterday you were 34 and now you're 35. You're high risk. So it's it's like that. And if a woman can get pregnant and she holds the pregnancy, there is no issue with the birth itself. So you can be 44, you know, and you get pregnant and you have a great pregnancy. There's no issue with the birth itself because of your age. You know, I've said this many times. I've seen women, you know, in their early twenties get pregnant and they have difficult labors because, you know, they're not in shape. They're not eating well. There's a lot of psychoemotional and braiding to do that hasn't been done. And they have tumultuous labors and they're like 23 years old. You know, so it's like for me, the age is just this. Like trauma fields that we're all participating in, you know, and even the most awake women that I've spoken to are like, you know, write me emails and they're like, you know, I know what you're going to say, but like just wondering, you know, you think I should freeze my eggs, you know, and I'm like, no, we've had this conversation, right? So it's, it's something it's insidious, you know, and it's on the mind of pretty much every woman that I know. And so no, age is not a factor. Again, it's just the psychoemotional terrain that we've touched on so many times here, like belief systems, limiting beliefs, partnership, safety, trauma, you know? [Speaker 2] (1:04:55 - 1:05:24) Yeah. And it becomes this almost self-fulfilling prophecy where because of the story, because of like, oh, you can't have a child after this age, or it's, it's, there's so many risks to it. Then that story's in the mind. And then someone does get pregnant after 35. But because that story is there, that belief system's there, and potentially there is a complication, then it's like, see, look, there are more complications after age 35 too. You know what I mean? Like that, that can be the thing as well. [Speaker 1] (1:05:24 - 1:05:25) We're right. [Speaker 2] (1:05:25 - 1:05:26) You know, your projection. [Speaker 1] (1:05:26 - 1:06:09) Yeah, exactly. And, you know, there is an entire industry right of IVF and, you know, the overlap with pharma. I mean, it's, it's one in the same, right? They're cousins. They benefit off of keeping the story alive. You know, as long as we can continue to show women that they are in deficit after their mid thirties, and that they need us, like we've got, we've got it on lock, you know, and how do we do that? Like, we continue to make films where like, the couple's having a hard time getting pregnant because she's older, or, you know, like the story is just perpetuated, and it's in our consciousness. So it becomes real. So women, you know, not conceiving and not holding a pregnancy. And it's because that's the belief system, you know? [Speaker 2] (1:06:10 - 1:06:32) Yeah, the proof in the pudding for this is like, I know, couples who really struggled to get pregnant for many years, and they went the IVF route, and they had an IVF trial. But then for the second trial, there's no issue whatsoever. Yeah, in getting pregnant, right? Because that that story is no longer there. It's like, I can't get pregnant. I had a birth. And it's no issue now. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:06:32 - 1:08:44) I've seen that a lot, too. That's interesting. You said that where it's like, oh, yeah, like, we've broken that belief, you know, there are some people who say it only happened because of IVF, you know, that's fine. But it often happens where they get pregnant, you know, accidentally the second time, and they're like, I never thought this could happen. Wow, you know, sometimes they just need to feel the sensation of what it is to conceive and be pregnant and birth to know that their body is not broken. You know? But yeah, there's so much around infertility. And I've seen women not able to conceive after having a very traumatic birth, traumatic pregnancy, miscarriage, abortion, that creates issues with infertility later, not because of like, you know, they might say, oh, there's scar tissue, or there's like, something like that from the procedure that was done. And no, there is like, you know, I got I got a call today from a client who you know, she had a stillbirth with twins last year. And she said to me, I don't want to get pregnant because I do not want this to happen again. And like, I would love so much to have another baby, but I simply do not want to relive what I lived, you know, and she's honest about it. And it's inner consciousness. And she knows. But there are so many women who have miscarried or had abortions or stillbirths. And it's like buried deep within. And they're just like, Oh, I'm trying to get pregnant. And we're having a hard time, but we're going to keep going at it. And it's like, have you grieved yet? Have you grieved yet? Even even abortions? Like, have you grieved that yet? As much as like you were conscious for that, and it was a decision, like, grief is still in order. You know, for whatever reason, some people have to abort ectopic pregnancies, because it could actually kill the mother and the baby, you know, it's not, it's not possible, it's not viable to have an ectopic pregnancy. And so they have to do a procedure. And there's so much grief around that, you know, so there's a trauma field there. And it's really important to address it. So that's one of the one of the big causes of infertility that I see is just not not holding a grieving process for certain events. [Speaker 2] (1:08:46 - 1:09:03) Previously, even like more generally, like that, we don't really like it. I mean, obviously, I'm not a woman, but from what I can observe, like, it appears as though, you know, there's a resistance to process the birth itself. You know, what actually took place? [Speaker 1] (1:09:05 - 1:09:11) There's a resistance to birthing in itself, just the marathon of it, the process, you're saying? [Speaker 2] (1:09:12 - 1:09:14) No, processing one's own birth experience. [Speaker 1] (1:09:14 - 1:10:12) Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, there's a total resistance to it. I mean, oh, yeah, I think, you know, there's, there's a resistance to processing the moment we were actually born. And then there's a, there's a sense to, you know, talking about the experience we had, you know, and like, been birth processing sessions with women in their 60s were like, you know, I birthed 30 years ago. And like, there's just something not sitting right with me still. And I want to talk about it, you know, and I was not ready to talk about it until now, like I came across info or I saw a photo or, you know, I get triggered every time people are talking about how great their birth was. And I don't want to feel like that, you know, I don't want to die. And so we talk about it, and they realize like, oh, wow, I was duped, you know, and the guilt also, where like, I could have done things differently, I could have done things better, I could have made different decisions. [Speaker 2] (1:10:12 - 1:10:14) You know, that's, that's a big barrier as well. [Speaker 1] (1:10:15 - 1:10:35) Yeah, I could have made different decisions. And that's where we also have to trust that there is like a greater divine plan that is for us, right? It's for us, it's for our expansion, it's for our learning. And why can't we trust that that child intelligently chose to be born that way for their own life's process? [Speaker 2] (1:10:36 - 1:10:47) Yeah. For their own journey, like, you know, what's that that karmic blueprint is vital, you know, that holds gifts when we finally get to that and address that. [Speaker 1] (1:10:48 - 1:11:25) It's that fine line, you know, between, you know, awareness, but also acceptance, acceptance and getting excited about the wound alchemy that can happen, start to process this experience. I mean, I've had a host of experiences where I'm like, well, I wish I could have done that differently, or wish I would have unfolded it, you know, and really quickly, I'm like, oh, I'm alchemizing this, you know, like, this wound has become a gift. And now like, this person are all benefiting from this, you know, and everyone has the opportunity to do that. Everyone. [Speaker 2] (1:11:25 - 1:11:54) Yeah, I've been beginning to become curious about my own birth only recently, because the story which I've been told forever, it was such a rush. Like, apparently, like, my head popped out in the car on the way. And like, there was a whole bus full of children finishing school that we're watching, and like, everything was rush, rush, rush. Like, actually, I feel rushed my entire life. Come to think of it. It explains everything. I never knew this about you, bro. Now I know I have more compassion for you. [Speaker 1] (1:11:56 - 1:12:00) All this time together, and you had never talked about stories. Wow. [Speaker 2] (1:12:02 - 1:12:14) We've talked about circumcision plenty of times, but not that. Thank you, bro. Thank you for trusting, trusting us in this moment and sharing that. I feel safe. Yeah, yeah. No, anyways, I keep going with what you're saying. [Speaker 1] (1:12:16 - 1:12:19) Oh, I don't know. Now I want to know all about his birth story. [Speaker 2] (1:12:19 - 1:14:02) That's what I mean. I was saying to Joel, keep going. I know I jumped in and like, cracked a joke, but you know. No, I think thanks for hijacking my very sentimental moment, Erasmus. That's all right. That's pretty much where I'm at. That's right. That's what I know of it. You know, like, I don't know. What can I say? I don't know where that thread was going. Well, no, but you bring up a point. I can't tell you how attached I am to the story. Like, I've heard it however many times growing up. Like, I almost, I wasn't getting nutrition in the womb for some reason. My mom couldn't feel me. And then my uncle from Greece was staying with them. And she, he rushed my mom to the hospital and then they had emergency C-section to get me out so I can survive, you know. Yeah, make it about you. No, I'm just, yes, I am. I'm making it about me. We're bouncing off stories of each other, but it's just like, but even then, like, for me, it's very even cerebral. Yes, I've done some work on it, you know, but even then it's hard. Like, I know I had an experience in my life where it was like, there was this deep, deep vulnerability and almost like hunger. Like, I wasn't, I couldn't even talk. Like, I wasn't getting nutrition or I'm hungry for something or I need sustenance because, and like, I feel that way sometimes, you know, and I think, I think when you get to the root of the deep addiction, sometimes it's that, it's like, it's needing some level of connection or sustenance that you didn't get or safety, I guess, and you're searching for it. But I don't know, it's like, to go back to what I said, it's like the, it's still cerebral for me, you know, and have I mourned it? I mean, I've had, I've had experiences where I think like in different healing sessions where I've connected to it, but it still remains pretty like, oh, well, yeah, this happened to me. You know, I'm a victim, but how do I move beyond that? [Speaker 1] (1:14:02 - 1:14:13) You know, I mean, I mean, haven't you, like, haven't you seen that, like the entire experience that you're offering the world now, like has everything to do with having lived that? [Speaker 2] (1:14:14 - 1:14:31) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, that's why I don't regret it because it's like everything that's happened to me in my life and even all the early surgeries and the ear operations and the things that I had as a child, you know, I think on some level, like led me down this path, you know? But yeah, it's interesting to think about. [Speaker 1] (1:14:31 - 1:15:48) Yeah. There have been studies done that I should be posting soon, but basically children who are not held right, who are not worn by their mothers, like in care carriers regularly, we're not receiving that oxytocin on a regular basis that they needed in order to feel safety and bonded, right? And so they're finding a correlation between babies who are often in strollers and contraptions, not being held as much, or they go into daycare really early, like around three months, are more prone to addiction, right? I mean, like, it seems obvious, like it makes sense, right? But it's like, we don't, we don't even realize that the, that even when we're trying our best, you know, and even when we have the baby with us, like the way that we're even present with them and engaging is also affecting them, you know? So it's, it's, it's never ending, you know, like a baby could have never been held and a baby could just be there next to you, but then you're not engaging. It's like, we're just a society that's not really set up to offer them what they need for that, that fulfillment, you know? And so that's why I'm just like, where are your baby? And like, go on with your life. Do not complicate it. Just have them there with you as much as possible. You know, you don't get that time back. [Speaker 2] (1:15:49 - 1:16:00) Yeah. Yeah. I tell, I tell mothers just be like a kangaroo, you know, and just have that, have that baby close to you all times, right? Joel, you're aware of kangaroos. That's where you come from. [Speaker 1] (1:16:03 - 1:16:10) I heard something about that in Australia. Is there like a season where they're like hunted and waited out because of the... [Speaker 2] (1:16:10 - 1:16:15) Kangaroos are considered pests in Australia. Like massive, like overgrowth. [Speaker 1] (1:16:16 - 1:16:16) Wow. [Speaker 2] (1:16:17 - 1:16:26) Yeah. Like, but it's like, it's a common, you know, people like kangaroo steaks and stuff all the time. Like it's common. Wow. I didn't know that. [Speaker 1] (1:16:26 - 1:16:29) I guess that's like gators here in Florida. [Speaker 2] (1:16:29 - 1:16:54) Look at that. You got a new bit of information they didn't know. This is, this is, this is the descents of you for the truth guys. We had a good run. I don't end episodes. Yeah. I was talking about, it was all about the kangaroos. How dare you're asked to bring up kangaroos. Now you're asking us is dismissing my birth story and talking about kangaroos. [Speaker 1] (1:16:55 - 1:16:56) Yes. I don't know what went wrong. [Speaker 2] (1:16:57 - 1:17:05) I'm actually acknowledging your birth story, because, you know, feeling rushed, you know, it's an interesting experience. [Speaker 1] (1:17:06 - 1:19:00) In my, in my consolation with my birth, I mean, I knew my birth story, but I got to relive it recently. And, you know, I started developing this theory. It's like my own case study over the last 10 years of the women that I've worked with and talking about their birth stories. And I was, my mother medicated herself at the last minute, basically. It was like right before, maybe like an hour before I was born, she received a saddle block, which is like an old school epidural, where they just directly inject the fentanyl into the, into the cerebral spinal fluid, rather than having the mother on a drip. The epidural is like a red needle that goes into the cerebral spinal fluid. And it's just like tape there and it's on a drip, but these used to be just like single injections you'd get every hour or so. And because of that, I was pulled out with forceps, which are these long metal clamps that kind of go around the baby's head and guide the baby out, but really they get dragged out, you know, yanked. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of injury that can come with that as well in the upper cervical spine, but that's another topic. So in this constellation, I saw very clearly that this, this desire, and I don't know, I mean, I think this is like a generational epidemic, but it's like this desire to give up when things become really challenging and not knowing what it is to really fight to be born. Not, you know, being, being dragged out, not really doing that myself, you know, has definitely impacted my capacity to stick with things, you know, in certain, in certain aspects in my life. And I started to kind of see this across the board with, you know, children who were dragged out rather than born on their own volition. [Speaker 2] (1:19:01 - 1:19:03) And the C-section, C-section as well. [Speaker 1] (1:19:03 - 1:19:04) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:19:04 - 1:19:14) Yeah. I've had this exact conversation with people and, and have thought about that same thing that you said and not going through the birth canal, not pushing through, not fighting through. Wow. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:19:15 - 1:20:15) Yeah. And it's not a fight like, you know, in this negative sense, it's a really beautiful initiation of fighting for your life. You're fighting to be born. And it is the, it is the process that gives you all of these markers to then have that quality, you know, over the rest of your life, but it's like over the course of your life. And so I saw very, very clearly where that has impacted me. And after experiencing that in the constellation, it changed a lot. It started to reverberate out in the web. That is my existence with people in my family, even, you know, because our belief systems are reverberating consistently into our nuclear nuclear family, into our systemic family constellation. So when you do this work on yourself and you, and you, you take radical self-responsibility, you're also giving that gift to the people around you, you know, so this isn't just like for your own process. This is like for your children and your, you know, your lineage after, you know, after you and before you. [Speaker 2] (1:20:17 - 1:20:35) Um, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. How does someone go about doing that work? Like that was, that was where I was going with it initially. Like, how does someone do that work? Like is our short, you know, family constellation might be one option, you know, but yeah, that's definitely one option, you know, and if that's [Speaker 1] (1:20:35 - 1:21:39) not accessible, you know, to someone, there are lines of inquiry that you can pose for yourself, you know, questions like when I think about birth, I feel, you know, what are all the things that you feel like on a really basic level, what's coming up for you? Um, I imagine partnership when I imagine parenting, when I imagine, and you, and you, and you really do this kind of like limiting belief exercise where you first isolate what it is that you feel when you imagine these scenarios. Um, and then you start to ask yourself, what would it look like if that wasn't the truth? Like, what would it actually look like for me if you know, birth wasn't hard, what would that mean for me? And what are the parts of me that want to believe it's hard? And what are the parts with me that want to know it's easy? And then we can start to do this, like what's parts work, right? Where we start to access the different dimensions of ourselves that have different beliefs and give them a seat at the table. And you don't need anyone on the outside to guide you through this, you can just start saying, Oh, there's a part of me that believes this. What does she need? What can I give her so that she stops like scratching at the door? [Speaker 2] (1:21:39 - 1:21:41) Yeah, with this system, opening the dialogue? [Speaker 1] (1:21:42 - 1:21:45) Yeah, just opening the dialogue with all the parts of yourself. [Speaker 2] (1:21:45 - 1:21:45) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:21:45 - 1:21:49) So that can be, you know, something that you do on your own, you don't have to like go to a facilitator. [Speaker 2] (1:21:50 - 1:21:55) Um, your dreams to, you know, once you open that line of inquiry, what's happening in your dreams? [Speaker 1] (1:21:55 - 1:22:15) What's happening in your dreams, right? Simply asking, you know, show me what I need to see, you know, whatever higher power that you associate with, just show me what I need to see about this. And paying attention, you'll start to see, you know, it'll be shown to you. So yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:22:20 - 1:22:58) What's the weird question that we're gonna, what's the weird question we're going to ask her to end the talk now? Yeah, I just really have been enjoying this conversation. And it's so important, really, because I know we touched on it earlier, but, and it's corny to say, but the children are the future, you know, but they are, are, you know, and I think individuals that can do the work that they need to do to be as healthy as they can, obviously not perfect, there is no perfect, but to help nurture and bring regulated, healthy children into the world is what's going to have an impact on society and how we move forward. So all this stuff is so important. [Speaker 1] (1:22:59 - 1:23:24) Yeah, and we have to not forget that like, we don't get hyper focused on just the child's experience. That's not what this is about. This is also like, focusing on our own experience and unbraiding that, because that's going to impact them. Like, there's actually very little to do for them. But if we start to unbraid this, then they just feel that and they fall into place around it. You know? [Speaker 2] (1:23:25 - 1:23:29) Yeah. Self healing is so, so important on so many levels. [Speaker 1] (1:23:30 - 1:23:30) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:23:32 - 1:23:44) What would you like to leave our audience with? Any final message? And also, how can they contact you? You know, how can they discover and pull this thread deeper for themselves in terms of, you know, educating themselves further? [Speaker 1] (1:23:45 - 1:25:26) Yeah, I mean, there are various offerings on my website. You know, courses, this course is coming out for men, you know, and creating safety for yourself and for others around you. There's the master class. And so I just encourage anyone who, you know, whether you want children, don't want children, you know, you're pregnant, not pregnant. At the time, like this course really gives you a deeper understanding. This journey gives you a understanding of how birth plays a role in every area of our lives. And ultimately, are we practicing informed consent, you know, in our partnership? You know, what does that mean? And in the world itself, you know, in the way we consume, like, are we practicing informed consent? So it's really like a beautiful, deep dive into how to move through the world in a way that feels authentic and loyal, you know, to ourselves. And then of course, I'm on and off Instagram from time to time. So I'm there, you know, and I love connecting to people that way as well. And what I would say to everybody is like, meet yourself where you are, you know, and give all of these parts that we've been talking about all these parts of yourself a seat at the table. You know, there is no part that there's no hierarchy in our parts. All the parts have a completely valid and worthy expression and experience. So just give all those parts of yourself, you know, the shame, the pride, the grief, you know, all of those parts, give them a seat at the table and see what they tell you, you know, and come into that wholeness. That's real self love, I think. [Speaker 2] (1:25:27 - 1:25:37) Couldn't agree more. I'd like to purchase one of those men's corsels for your SMS, so I'll get in touch later. Thank you. Thank you for the gift. I appreciate it. You're welcome, bro. [Speaker 1] (1:25:39 - 1:25:41) Happy to give you a promo code for that. [Speaker 2] (1:25:42 - 1:26:03) Nice, nice. Ayla, thank you so much for this conversation. I really think we tackled things from a different perspective, which is nice. And yeah, thank you for being who you are. Thank you for playing the role that you do. We honor you. We appreciate you. And to everyone that's listening, thanks for being here too. Wish you guys the best. Take care. Take care, everybody.