Loralee Scaife Lord of the Rings: the Myth of Our Time

[Speaker 1] (0:00 - 0:45) I've taken literally hundreds of courses and this one is hands down the best one. I cannot say enough good about it. If you're on the fence about joining this program, grab your spot, like it fills up every time. The program is incredible and you don't want to miss this opportunity. The biggest takeaway for me from Rise Above the Hood has been the profound realization that I am worthy of receiving, creating, and living the most amazing life I can imagine. Now, speaking these words before Rise Above the Hood would have felt like a lie, but now I embody them with such belief and confidence in myself. [Speaker 2] (0:47 - 1:39) The reality is that you were born into a world where you were taught that to sacrifice your self-interests and personal desires for the sake of your friends, family, community, and society made you a good and moral person. But the truth is that this is all part of deeper conditioning designed to keep you playing small, to prevent you from ever realizing your true worth and value, and to entrain you to a life of unlived potential. That's why now more than ever, in a time where the control systems all around us have proven without a doubt that they cannot be relied upon to support our evolution, it's we that must be willing to take a journey of self-excavation to discover the inner riches and potential and to truly become our own authorities so we can navigate this world and our lives appropriately. To learn more, head to riseabovethehood.co or hit the link in the brief and see if you're down to reserve one of the limited spots available for round seven. [Speaker 3] (1:40 - 1:47) You are now listening to the Here For The Truth Podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 2] (1:51 - 3:00) All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Here For The Truth Podcast. We have the amazing Laura-Lise Scaife with us here today. Her studies began in 1978 in Canada, where she cultivated her skills as a consultant and teacher of astrology. Since then, she has expanded her knowledge through extensive studies covering psychology, philosophy, mythology, science, history, and current affairs. As an educator, she's presented classes and lectures to various astrological societies, the Canadian Astrologers Conference, Well Within Retreats, and the San Diego Friends of Jung. Her unique expertise in integrating mythic images and Jungian concepts into astrology brings a depth of insight into her work with her clients, helping to reveal how they can actualize inherent potentials and construct a personal destiny in tune with who they really are. In addition to working with clients, she's currently engaged in an ongoing deep study of Lord of the Rings as the guiding myth of our time, and is in the process of developing a series of videos and workshop material exploring this theme. I'm so excited for this conversation. Laura-Lise, thanks for being here for the truth. [Speaker 1] (3:02 - 3:09) Oh, thank you so much. I can hardly wait. This is great. I always love talking about my favorite thing, the Lord of the Rings. [Speaker 2] (3:09 - 3:29) Absolutely. There's a series definitely near and dear to my heart. I'm sure many of our listeners as well. I guess first and foremost, before we direct our attention there, how did this process evolve for you? How did you find yourself deeply interested, I guess, in this work, in this study, and down this path? [Speaker 1] (3:31 - 13:57) Well, I'd say that my personal healing journey, as well as the realization of my vocatio, started with studying astrology. That began in 1978. I actually was kind of dragged kicking and screaming to astrology because, like most people still to this day, I just thought astrology was the horoscope you read in the newspaper and thought it was kind of stupid. I had friends at the time who were just learning. They were just learning how to calculate charts. In those days, we had to do charts by hand. There was no computer, so we had to do all the math and all the calculations and draw the charts by hand. It was quite a process. Anyway, these friends of mine kept saying, oh, it's so wonderful. You really got to read this book. Finally, I said, okay, okay. Once I started doing that, it became very clear to me that this was an amazing, miraculous, in fact, tool for self-understanding. It was certainly very helpful to me at a time when I was in desperate need of help. Then, of course, that grew into understanding other people. In the early first couple of years or so of studying astrology, then I was introduced to Carl Jung. That was another synchronicity. It came, first of all, through some books that were just starting to come out at the time by a Jungian analyst and astrologer by the name of Liz Green, who has a school of Jungian astrology in London. Once I got tuned into Jung, it just kind of pulled everything together. I always felt that there was some things missing about astrology, or at least the astrology that I was learning at the time. That was the beginning of psychological astrology. It wasn't just predictive fortune-telling type stuff. But once I got onto Jung and started understanding archetypes and mythology, that really pulled it all together. I really dove into Jung and then Joseph Campbell a little bit further on down the road. The thing that really struck me very early on was a statement made by both Jung and Campbell. They said that myth is to a culture what dreams are to the individual. I thought, wow, I wonder if that's true. I kind of played around with that idea because I had already been pretty involved in dream work and studying dreams and my own dreams and the dreams of my clients and whatnot. It was pretty obvious that dreams are extremely powerful and basically the story of your own life being told to you when you sleep. So I wondered, gee, well, if that is so, do we have a myth? We, that is the so-called modern culture or the peoples of, say, North America and overall the men of the West. My first thoughts about this started actually with the Star Wars movies. I got quite locked on to the Star Wars movies right in the beginning. I think they were coming out right around the end of the 1970s. I think it was the first three. So I worked on that for a while and I saw the characters in the Star Wars series as representing astrological planets. So I was kind of looking at it from that point of view and then got further into Joseph Campbell and the power of myth and all of that stuff. Then over the course of that 1980s to late 90s, I was very deeply into studying Jung and particularly the shadow and trying to understand what is this shadow thing all about and also what is evil. So I was pretty deep into that, but mostly focused on personal psychology, like looking at how this anti-life force operates in the personal psyche. I hadn't really turned my attention very much to what was going on in the outer world. But towards the end of the 1990s, there were things taking place in the outer world that were so disturbing that it really got my attention. Largely, that had to do with there was kind of an eruption around that time. I was living actually in San Diego, California. There were a series, actually, I think there was three or four very public or at least there was endless news reporting on it. There was abduction, rape, and murder of children. There were, as I say, three or four in a very short period of time and it was all over the news. So that kind of thing coming into my consciousness and probably the consciousness of the larger collective really struck me and I thought, wow, the evil is on the march and what is that all about? So looking into that and then of course, the big event that took place on September 11, 2001. And as an astrologer, of course, I was watching for that Saturn-Pluto opposition because I knew it was coming up. And it was exact about three weeks before September 11. And so that, of course, was a shock for everyone. And just looking at the astrology and wondering, whoa, where are we now? And then two months later, lo and behold, Fellowship of the Ring appeared in theaters. I did not know about Tolkien, hardly at all. All I knew about Tolkien was he'd been referenced here and there. I thought, oh yeah, he's the guy who writes children's stories and isn't that cute. But I was not aware of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. So I went to the film and it absolutely blew my mind. And I thought immediately, oh my God, this is the myth for our time. And it really took me over. I mean, I was absolutely possessed by this thing and the incredible importance of this movie and this whole story as a way to understand what was happening to the world, what was happening in the larger collective and what was happening to us as individuals living against the backdrop of this larger collective process. So that really started my deep research into just the question of what does this mean? How is it that this story seems to come to us right at this most critical time in human history? And if it really is the myth for our time, then how can we make conscious use of it? So thinking of myth as the operating manual for our psyche and the significance of bringing together the imaginal and the intellectual. So how I wanted to put that together in my series was really focused around that. So I wanted to have the images from the films and the video clips and and stuff like that there as the images that would awaken something in the psyche and then also have the analytical intellectual information along with that. So that was kind of my approach. And it's just been an ongoing deep dive. And I can say that almost every day, especially now with everything that's going on, it just seems to me that, yep, this is the myth for our time, all right. And that in fact, we may very well be right now at the battle at the Black Gate. [Speaker 2] (13:58 - 14:03) CBT Wow. CBT Amazing introduction. CBT Yeah, I've got hundreds of questions. [Speaker 1] (14:04 - 14:39) CBT Oh, good. Well, fire away. CBT I'd love to ask the two of you a question too before we go too far in. When did you each first discover Lord of the Rings? Was it the books or the films? And how old were you? CBT It was the films. It was the films for me. I watched them all right when they came out immediately. I went into the theater. They're each what, like three hours long? CBT Yeah. CBT I didn't know about the books, to be honest. CBT Wow. How old were you? CBT Well, I was 21 in 2011. I'm sorry, 2001. [Speaker 2] (14:39 - 14:46) So yeah, I was early 20s. CBT Yeah. I remember my dad taking me to watch the movie. I was 11 years old in 2001. [Speaker 1] (14:47 - 15:21) CBT Yeah. And I remember watching Fellowship of the Ring in the cinema. Yeah. CBT Wow. Okay. And watching those movies too, there was a really huge shift in technology. CBT No kidding. JG With those movies. Because I remember, I mean, now with what we see now, you go back and watch them and you're like, oh, what we've done technologically. CBT Yes. JG It's so advanced now. But in that moment, early 2000s, when those movies came out, I was like, whoa. CBT Yeah. CBT Was it Matrix that year as well? 2001? CBT I think the Matrix was 1999. CBT Oh, 1999. Oh, wow. [Speaker 2] (15:21 - 15:27) CBT I remember watching that and being like, you know, the special effects is never going to get any better than this. JG Yeah. [Speaker 1] (15:27 - 15:29) Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (15:29 - 15:30) CGI and everything. CBT Yeah. [Speaker 1] (15:30 - 16:59) I watched that too. It was in college. So it might have been in the late 90s or early 2000s. CBT Yeah. JG Well, I had quite an interesting experience. It must have been around 2003 or something. It was visiting family. I had four nieces and a nephew within the age range of 12 to 7 years old. This was in the middle of the summer. So they're out of school. It's a beautiful, hot, nice summer day. They're all down in the dark in the basement watching Lord of the Rings over and over and over again. And they were absolutely hypnotized. And I thought, wow, this story is entering their psyche as if it were a dream. Because they weren't analyzing it psychologically, obviously. But they were just absorbing the images and the whole story. So I think that especially the young people, children who watch those films early on, that they have taken it into their psyche. I think this myth is alive in the human psyche. And it's just needing to be activated. [Speaker 2] (16:59 - 17:14) CBT Yeah. Well, let's go there. What's the best entry point to start, I guess, unpacking this for our audience? Obviously, we don't have four or five hours here, which we did. But how do we begin to address this monster? [Speaker 1] (17:16 - 17:22) Well, why don't you start with your questions? And then we'll just kind of flow along from there. [Speaker 2] (17:23 - 17:46) Sure. Well, I mean, my questions, even just prior to Lord of the Rings, were related to psychology and astrology, etc. I didn't have time, I think, to get into those. But I guess, I think the best way, what's coming up for me is, can you give us the broad stroke synopsis of how you correlate this to the guiding myth of our time? And then we'll dissect it from there. [Speaker 1] (17:48 - 26:16) Well, my process or purpose, I guess, in putting it all together, it really was a question. You know, is this really the myth for our time? And so, just like in dream analysis, so there's a technique used in dream analysis called amplification. And that's simply a process of analyzing the symbols and the characters that come up in a dream. So, if you say, if you dreamed this story, and it was your personal dream, well, then you begin by taking apart each of the symbols and analyzing them. For example, the ring. Well, okay, what is the symbolism of a ring? And I unpacked all of that in my episode on the ring. But it is that technique that I used throughout the film. And if you're doing dream analysis, I mean, there's some dreams are just processing, you know, your stuff that happened during the day. But there are dreams that are prophetic. And you know, you yourselves may have had prophetic dreams, or dreams of events, whether it's events, or just things that are happening within you psychologically. And so, I thought, well, if this is the myth for our time, then there ought to be things taking place in the outer world that corresponded to some of the themes and emotional content that was depicted in the Lord of the Rings in the story. And so, I started to map things out, you know, match them up, and go deeper into the symbolism and the characters. Like, what did each of the characters represent? And then unpacked that symbolism, say, for example, the king. And what does kingship mean? And is that something that we need to see actualized in our time? And I would say, absolutely, yes. And also thinking along the lines of, well, if this is the myth for our time, and we can understand it as having some kind of a prophetic component to it, not necessarily prophetic in the sense of, well, this is going to happen at this time, and then that's going to happen, and other things along the way. But rather, it's revealing an unfolding of deeper psycho-spiritual processes that are taking place within the human psyche now. Because we've never been to this place before in human evolution. We've never had the tools available to us. We've never had the psychological understanding. I mean, that's only happened in, what, the last 70, 50 years or so. Prior to that, people weren't sitting around thinking about, you know, what is the meaning of my life, and all the archetypes and stuff. They were surviving. So, our so-called modern culture has freed us up, physically at least, from a lot of the kinds of demands of just survival. But since, you know, really the 1960s, things have opened up. Psychology and all kinds of studies, philosophy, and then there was, of course, during the 1960s, the philosophy coming from Eastern philosophy started to come into the West, and yoga, and meditation, and all kinds of spiritual studies, and this and that. So, there's been this flowering of information and knowledge in the last 50 to 70 years. And of course, Jung, I think Jung is just now coming into his fullness in terms of people learning about Jung and understanding Jung. So, we're here. We're on this threshold now where we're going through some kind of metamorphosis. And I compare that to the battle at the Black Gate, because I think we are really, we're on the razor's edge of absolute destruction. And so, there is something that rises up in the human psyche when the life force itself is threatened. And I call that the Promethean spirit. And it's connected certainly to astrology and particularly the sign of Aquarius and the ruling planet Uranus. But how that compares to Lord of the Rings is, I think it is the awakening of kingship, this notion of kingship, and how important that is for men and women too, of course. But as I delved into in my episode on kingship and the masculine, I think there has been, well, a war on men and a concerted effort to castrate men, both literally and psychologically. As a result, if there is no men, because the highest manifestation of the masculine principle is kingship, and what kings do is they build realms. So, the king is the builder of realms that are strong enough, secure enough, and safe enough that life can grow within that realm. So, if you're an enemy wanting to destroy, first thing you're going to do is castrate the men, because then there's no builders, there's no energies or people there to build and protect. And then the women fall into fear and lose the sense of their femininity. One of the most striking things I would say about Lord of the Rings is the fact that all the mothers die of grief. The mothers of the main characters die of grief. It's like, whoa, that's pretty chilling. And they die of grief when touched by evil. So, the story opens up with that idea. The mothers die of grief, Theoden the king of Rohan is demasculated by the influence of Wormtongue, a little minion of Saruman. So, this shows kind of where we are. That theme of men have been demasculated, the women are left terrified and unable to bring forth within them the very will to live. If the mothers die of grief, that's saying something, that the very will to live is extinguished. [Speaker 2] (26:17 - 26:25) Yeah. Well, it signals a lack of safety, right? There's no safe space to thrive, to flourish. [Speaker 1] (26:26 - 31:34) Right. Yeah. And so, if you're a bearer and bringer of life, and you know that's your purpose and you're not in a place of safety, then of course, you're not going to want to bring forth new life if it's going to be threatened and destroyed. So, are we not kind of in a place like that right now? I think we are. However, I will say that I see kingship rising all over the place, including men like you, men of kingly stature have been rising up over the past several years. But I would say, especially in the last maybe four or five years, what do you think? Yeah. Well, actually, thank you for saying that, because I was thinking, and we were talking about this before we press record, that Sophie and I watched Lord of the Rings, my wife and I, we watched Lord of the Rings, March 2020, because I sensed something was up and I felt this pull within me to want to step into my power more and to speak out even more and to create something. And you talk about creating realms. Again, yeah, I'm not a king where I'm wearing a little crown on my head, but it's like, shortly after, Joel and I met and we came together and we wanted to create something that can provide a space for people to learn and to grow and to take more ownership over their lives. And so, I think kings in general, they inspire people around them to own themselves more, their minds, their bodies, and to move into the world with more intention, to move through it gracefully, and to have the strength to encounter shit that's going to come up. And so, there isn't a coincidence. And Lord of the Rings had a huge impact on me. And it's interesting how these archetypes play on an individual, because the two books that I've mentioned on this podcast before that had an influence on me, because I was always curious about Jung. I was an actor for a long time. I trained as an actor. My teacher had psychologists on their staff that were influenced by Carl Jung as well. And there were these two books, one was called Gods and Every Man. Oh, yeah. Gene Boland's book. Yeah, Gene Boland's book. Oh, yeah. Amazing. And it's really fascinating, because as a man, you read this and you go, okay, well, where do I need to like, what am I embodying? And what part of me don't I have access to? Now, again, I think some people have maybe more default things where they're meant to embody one archetype over the other. But when you talk about shadow work, when you talk about integration and wholeness, which those words get thrown out a lot, how can we integrate these positive qualities of these archetypes in the sense of these two books? They're represented by the Greek gods. And how can we see where maybe like the shadow elements of these archetypes are playing out in us as well? So, to segue, it's like, how can individuals utilize these archetypes from these specific characters within Lord of the Rings to enhance their life and to enhance themselves on their own personal hero's journey? Well, first of all, the idea of kingship initially has to come from the inside out. In other words, as a man, your journey is about realizing your particular expression of kingship. And it's not about, yeah, you're gonna rule the world now. Kingship is about mastering your own, first of all, inner realm. And once there is at least some of that going on, then you can start thinking about building a larger realm. So, your first realm to master is your inner world. Then it is your personal life, your relationships, your home, family, business, work, how you interact with the community, and ultimately, how are you as a role model? The king is a role model for how to be a mature man. And it was said that to be seen by the king was to be blessed. So, I think from that perspective, just what you've shared about the kind of work that you're doing, both of you are doing, that is king work because you are helping others see the king and queen in themselves. Is that so? I'd like to think so. We're doing our version of it. [Speaker 2] (31:35 - 31:37) The name of our group coaching program is Rise Above the Hood. [Speaker 1] (31:38 - 34:45) Oh, there you go. That's it. Yeah. And I really like Robert Moore's metaphor of the quadrated structure, the four cornerstones of the masculine principle. So, there's the capital K king, say, at the top, and then the four cornerstones would be the small K king, the warrior, the magician, and what he calls the lover. So, the small K king is the leadership component of an individual man. And I think that within every man, there are these qualities of leadership. And that part of becoming a man is, first of all, discovering what are your gifts, what are your talents and gifts, how can you exercise those muscles and claim those talents and gifts to the point that you're able to bring those to working on the more undeveloped aspects of the self. And everyone has, as you said, Erasmus, the shadow. The shadow is not bad. And I think that it's important to make that point that a lot of times people think, oh, the shadow is a bad, you know, it's this evil thing. Well, no, the shadow is simply the personification of those aspects of the self that have not been allowed to appear in consciousness. And so, much of where the shadow begins is in early childhood. And, you know, most people have, you know, everyone's got some kind of problems that take place in childhood, okay? So, there's varying degrees of dysfunctional families, but nobody's perfect, or parents aren't perfect. So, there's bound to be some little aspects of your authentic self that in childhood, when you sought to express that unique, authentic part of yourself, if the message or the feedback you got from parents and the immediate environment was like, oh, no, that's bad. That way you're behaving is not acceptable. And so, you better not be that anymore. And so, we learn then to repress certain parts of ourselves that didn't get the kind of mirroring that we needed. And so, those little bits of the self get locked up in the dark corner of the basement, and they don't grow up. So, they become a component of the shadow. So, the shadow is really the personification of those primitive, immature, or childlike aspects of the self that have not been allowed into consciousness. And so, shadow work. Yeah, go ahead. [Speaker 2] (34:46 - 34:56) That's a heroic journey in itself, right? Yes. Recovering the repressed parts, bringing back the good and the gifts and the life force that comes, you know, when we've activated that. Absolutely. [Speaker 1] (34:56 - 41:20) Yeah, absolutely. So, in terms of this fourfold structure, so at each of those points, we have to look at, so let's say the small K king. So, what are your leadership qualities? Have you developed those? And if not, why not? And how do you go within to scope out those talents and gifts, those strong muscles, and get them exercised so you start to feel a sense of confidence in your own talents and gifts? And from there, you become a role model. So, a true leader is not somebody who gets up on their hind legs and says, Hey, everybody, follow me. I'm the best. I'm the king. I'm the leader. No, that's not what it is. It's you, by virtue of how you conduct your life, how you manage your own inner realm, and how you participate in positively mirroring the others in your realm of experience. So then, for anyone, any man to be a capital K king, he's got to have that leadership part, and he also has to have a fully functioning warrior. So, the warrior's job is to patrol the borders of the realm, and to ensure that the realm is secure, that there's not holes in the borders and invasions taking place that would disrupt or destroy the realm. And that warrior component, I think, is an area of masculine psychology that is in pretty desperate need of development. And again, I'm seeing, and I'm sure you are too, a lot of development in that regard, certainly with martial arts training and things of that nature that have provided young boys and young men, particularly, to learn how to manage this warrior component in themselves. So, depending on the personal psychology of individual men, there are some men who are completely castrated, right? They won't even pick up the sword. And then there are other men who are acting out of the warrior in an unconscious way, being aggressive and destructive in the expression of that warrior energy. So, that kind of martial arts-like training is a way to learn how to manage that energy and use it like a laser beam to, first of all, get things done, and to be a wise protector of the realm, to know when do you stand up and fight and when do you negotiate? It's a very important role in our time. So, when we first meet Aragorn, how far along this development journey is he? Well, that's an interesting question. Yeah. Well, Aragorn, of course, realizes that he's supposed to be the king. But he fears that he, in his own weakness, he fears his own weakness. And he fears that if he were to be exposed to the power of the king, that he, like his ancestor, Isildur, would fail, and it would result in a thousand years of darkness. So, he hides out and disguises himself and calls himself a ranger and kind of cruises around on the outskirts watching what's going on. And however, his fate eventually leads him to the point where it's like, he's got to do it, or it's the end. So, he comes into the scene presented as a man with this fear. And where that is really a very powerful scene, actually, in the films between Aragorn and Arwen. And in the scene, Aragorn is tending to the altar with the broken blade, Narsil. And he's looking very worried. And Arwen comes in to the scene, and she says to him, Why do you fear the past? You are Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself. You will face the same evil, and you will defeat it. So, that scene is an image of a man's inner woman, the inner feminine, the inner queen, that is the guide to the man's soul. So, in that image, Aragorn is essentially hearing this part of himself that is telling him, No, you have a destiny. You will face evil, and you will defeat it. And then he shortly after that, sets off on the quest. [Speaker 2] (41:22 - 41:28) So, I guess maybe his warrior was most developed at this point. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (41:29 - 41:58) And then, of course, the final test is when he takes the reforged blade, Elendil, when Elrond brings him the reforged blade and tells him, Set aside the ranger, become the man you were meant to be. And then what happens then? What's his first, where does he have to go after that? To the underworld. [Speaker 3] (41:59 - 42:00) Hmm. [Speaker 1] (42:02 - 42:14) Yeah. So, he has to go and deal with the shadows of the underworld. [Speaker 2] (42:17 - 42:27) Rise Above the Herd reminded me, because it is a reminder that I have all the power within myself to create change in my own life. [Speaker 1] (42:53 - 51:09) I mean, there's so many questions to ask. Obviously, there's nine hours of the show, and you talked about it, and anyone that's listening, you can obviously go and watch all her videos and everything she's created about this. But what is the symbolism of the ring? Because you mentioned it earlier. Yeah. Well, first of all, the ring is a 3D version of a circle. So, we start with the symbol of a circle. What is a circle? An ancient, ancient symbol. Some say, 10,000 some odd years old, when the circle first appeared, because it is a symbol of wholeness, of integration, and of the cycles of life and nature. And I mean, human beings took the time to build massive circles all over the world with massive stones and things of this nature. So, obviously, there is something deep in the human psyche that is related to this ring, this symbol of the ring. And it's also the uroboros, the snake eating its own tail. So, there's that image of the cycles of life, the serpent who devours herself, mates with herself, reproduces herself eternally. So, that brings in the zodiac is a uroboros. That's another circle. Circles are everywhere. And in the ancient past, also the circle is the zero. And so, then that takes us into numbers and symbology. And the appearance of the zero was a major thing, that out of nothing, something comes. Wow, that was like a revolution in human consciousness. And if we keep taking that kind of imagery through to, so there's the circle is the 2D, a ring is a 3D circle, and a 3D circle is a torus. So, then we have this idea of the torus as the central unit of everything from the tiniest to the biggest in the universe, that everything is made of toruses, this energy field that surrounds our own bodies, and every living thing, and the Earth, and the planets, and the solar system, and the galaxy, it's all made of toruses. So, not surprising then, this incredible power, this source of how all life works, not surprising then that the forces of evil would want to control that. And I think that's kind of what we're dealing with right now, is this, the incredible technology that humans have been developing, this ability to use nature and the powers of nature and the cosmos to destroy rather than to support life. And so, looking at how is that evil manifesting right now in terms of just the way things are unfolding on the Earth. So, I get quite deeply into that in my episode on the ring and the nature of evil, because frankly, I think that in order for us to really come out the other end of this is we really need a more sophisticated understanding of evil in our time. And I think that's starting to happen, for sure. But there is still, I think, a lot of resistance even to just talking about evil. I mean, I talk about this all the time because I talk to people like you and other people who are interested in this sort of thing. But if I'm having conversations with Normies, there's extreme resistance. They don't even want to hear about evil. Well, yeah, and this relates to what we were talking about before is like shadow work. I think there's resistance because people don't want to acknowledge that within themselves is the potential to commit evil acts. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. And now understanding and really observing just how potent these weapons of evil are right now. I mean, again, this has never happened before. So we're on this razor's edge. As Galadriel says to the Fellowship when they come to meet with her, she says, the quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little, and it will fail to the ruin of all. But hope remains while the company is true. So what might that mean? How we prevail is through the company that is forming fellowships with other men and women of like mind and of courage who are willing to step up and do the shadow work and not only step up and do that at the personal level, but to step up and do that in your outer life in some way. I mean, it's one thing to do your inner work and sit in your room and do whatever it is to heal yourself, and that's all great. But eventually, I'd say especially now, we all have to step up and rise to our own individual kingship and queenship if we're going to meet the challenge and overcome an enemy that is coming for us all. And that requires overcoming the little internecine conflicts and little squabbles that go on, even amongst people who are on the path, so to speak. One of the most effective tools of the enemy is divide and conquer and keeping us all fighting amongst ourselves over ridiculous things. And meanwhile, the force of evil is on the march. And so for, say, for example, men like yourselves, as you come to have a sense of your own kingship, well, then you are forming allegiances and alliances with other men of kingly stature, aren't you? [Speaker 2] (51:10 - 51:15) Yeah. It's funny. We have a membership community connected to this podcast called Friends of the Truth. [Speaker 1] (51:16 - 51:18) All right, there you go. [Speaker 2] (51:19 - 51:20) The Fellowship of the Truth. [Speaker 1] (51:21 - 51:27) Yes, it is. That's what it is. Yeah. That grows. [Speaker 2] (51:28 - 51:42) Yeah, that's right. Well, what's the significance of, I guess, Frodo, or the Hobbits, who to me, I guess, represent the inner child, I could be wrong there, being tasked with ultimately having to do with the evil? [Speaker 1] (51:43 - 51:48) Real quickly, I'm not an expert on the tarot, but would they relate to the Fool at all? [Speaker 3] (51:48 - 51:48) Yes. [Speaker 1] (51:49 - 53:38) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's interesting that the Hobbits are depicted as being the size of children of about five years old. And so what we're dealing with in terms of the Hobbits is that divine child archetype and that innocence of the child. And the Shire is symbolic of the garden, the garden of the great mother and the safe place where- Like the womb, right? It is. Yes, it is. And verdant and voluptuous and full of life and joy and play and it's safe and it's fun and it's rather similar to the Garden of Eden, actually, a similar archetype. So yeah, why would it be a little Hobbit that has to take on this burden? Well, I think it is, of course, the symbol of the hero's journey, that it starts from a place of innocence and a place where everyone kind of arrives at, hopefully, in the course of their development. The realization that, uh-oh, I'm not a child anymore. I've been given some kind of responsibility and I got to show up now. [Speaker 2] (53:38 - 53:42) The world ain't what it seemed for the first few years of my life there. [Speaker 1] (53:43 - 55:51) Yeah. The loss of innocence. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that can be traumatic. And as Frodo, his journey unfolded, you get to see just how challenging that really is. But ultimately, the Hobbits who go on the quest are doing so in order to preserve the Shire, in order to preserve this sacred place, this Garden of the Divine Child. And I think it's so important that all of us understand that the Shire is a place within, that we all have a place within where the inner child can feel safe and where that part of ourselves can play and can feel joy. And this idea of, first of all, finding that place. Because if there has been, say, a lot of trauma in childhood, very often there is the loss of access to that nurturing, nourishing place within where you can go to restore yourself. And so we all need, especially now, to cultivate that inner Shire place and to make connection with the inner child, that part of ourselves that gives us access to wonder and awe and joy and creativity. And without that, well, you don't get joy. So that's important. [Speaker 2] (55:51 - 56:01) So from this perspective, would you like to make the correlation potentially that the reclamation of the inner child is obviously fundamental to the ultimate undoing of evil? [Speaker 1] (56:02 - 57:46) Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you're bereft of joy, that makes life pretty difficult. And when you hear about the levels of depression and suicide and just the sense of despair that is sweeping around the planet at the moment, and especially with the young people who are the most being preyed upon by this destructive force, and their innocence is being destroyed in the most horrific of ways, actually. And I see that as what's happening with the predation of children, with the drag queen story time and this sort of thing, the stealing of the innocence of children, right in everybody's face. I mean, it's not even covered up now. It's just right out there. And we're supposed to accept it. We're supposed to celebrate all of this stuff, when what is actually happening before our very eyes, it is the stealing of innocence, the innocence of the divine child. And so we must recapture that and create a space within and without where that innocence and just purity and beauty is protected. [Speaker 2] (57:47 - 57:57) Yeah. Astrologically, I guess, we've spoken about Aragorn and Frodo a little bit. What planets would you correlate those two characters to? [Speaker 1] (58:00 - 59:39) Well, at least I don't think I could put one planet connected to any of them, because each of them in the course of the story, so yeah, it's primarily about Aragorn becoming king. But actually, what's going on is that each of the characters goes through his own personal journey and rises to his individual greatness and kingship in his own way. And each of the members of the Fellowship, I think, represent different aspects or manifestations of the masculine principle. So, for example, Gimli is a representative of the more rugged masculinity. I see that as the rodeo riders and the wrestlers and the rig workers and the miners and the guys who get dirty and who might be a little rough around the edges. But they have their own path and their own process to go through to rise to kingship as who they are. And then there's the men who are maybe more elvish, so not the rough and tumble Gimli types. [Speaker 2] (59:39 - 59:44) Those are the Erasmus types, very, very precise, like a Legolas style. [Speaker 1] (59:44 - 1:00:07) Yes, exactly. Yeah. These are the martial artists, the Zen masters, the academics, the ones who develop in the realm of the mind and so forth and maybe aren't rolling around and wrestling down steers. [Speaker 2] (1:00:07 - 1:00:11) I do have some Gimli humor though, that's for sure. [Speaker 1] (1:00:11 - 1:02:27) Oh, that's good. Yeah, but you get what I'm saying, right? And I think we can all, and I do it all the time, look out into the world and pick out, okay, who's representing this archetype? And since we're just kind of talking about Gimli, I think the best representation of Gimli is Alex Jones. I mean, isn't he just Gimli all over the place? Very true. Yeah. So, again, why this is the myth for our time is because we can see in the outer world characters that show up, that carry for us these archetypal potentials. And another thing that I really think is appearing powerfully right now is, of course, the archetype of the king. And it is my theory that when we come to a place in history such as where we are now, when the life force itself is threatened and there is a need for a king, then it constellates within the psyche of individual men this need for kingship. And there will often be individuals who appear on the scene who will hold and carry that archetype for the people. It doesn't mean that that individual is a king, but rather that there is something rising up in the human psyche and it gets projected onto a particular individual, whether he is capable of that or not is almost irrelevant. What's important is that it's awakening something in the human psyche that needs to be developed and expressed right now. [Speaker 2] (1:02:27 - 1:02:57) I think the events of 2020 definitely gave rise and caused a stir in that regard. But I think initially, before kingship, particularly during that period, it was the warriors. And that warrior archetype was being the first, like, all right, they're at the gate. We need to stand up, we need to employ all the fences. Then as things settled and fizzled down, then I think that king energy came in. All right, we have some time to strategize, to think more. [Speaker 1] (1:02:58 - 1:04:48) That's right. Exactly. Well, and when did this first kind of show up? I would say in 2016 with the election of Donald Trump. So no matter what you think of him as a person, because the truth is none of us really know who this guy is. However, he has been able to hold this archetypal energy because he is born with Mars in Leo on the ascendant. His Mars is at 26 degrees, his ascendant is 28 degrees of Leo, and the fixed star Regulus, the star of the king, is at 28 degrees of Leo. Now, an ancient astrologer would look at a chart like that and say, oh, well, this one is going to be the warrior king. So whether he is that or not, something happened in the psyche of the man of the West that brought that individual to a position of power, and so that archetype was awakened in the collective. And then as you said, Joel, then things happened. We had the COVID and the Saturn-Pluto conjunction that took place in January of 2020, the big boil lancing that we're still in the process of cleaning up. And yeah, things kind of fizzled down, and individual men were doing a lot of inner work during all of this time. Is that the case for the two of you? Has it been like a real intense growth process since 2016? [Speaker 3] (1:04:48 - 1:04:49) Mm-hmm. [Speaker 2] (1:04:50 - 1:05:03) Yeah, for sure. I mean, most intensely, definitely the last three and a half years, but 2015, for me, was the real, I guess, beginning of the arc. [Speaker 1] (1:05:04 - 1:05:24) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, in 2014, 2015 was the Uranus-Pluto square. So it was kind of the harbinger, like, hello, everybody, wake up. We got some big stuff coming, big boil lancing on the horizon, so get ready. [Speaker 2] (1:05:25 - 1:05:33) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just quickly on Trump, there's a vivid of like jester kind of archetypal energy there. [Speaker 1] (1:05:33 - 1:06:11) Yeah. Yeah. Oh, he's totally a trickster. He's a Gemini with the Sun conjunct Uranus, and he's born on a lunar eclipse. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, that's pretty significant, too. People who are born on eclipses generally have some kind of a destiny built in. I mean, it may not be a big one like the Donald, but if you're born on a lunar eclipse or a solar eclipse, that certainly is a powerful dynamic in your natal chart. [Speaker 3] (1:06:12 - 1:06:15) Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about Gandalf. [Speaker 1] (1:06:16 - 1:09:09) Gandalf, the wise man. Yeah. Well, Gandalf represents that part of the masculine psyche that is the wise inner teacher, the wise inner man. And in order for a man to be a wise king, he needs access to a source of wisdom that comes from the inside and that guides the man along his way to his transformation, which is what takes place when Gandalf confronts the Balrog. And at that moment, when he falls into the abyss with the Balrog and is consumed by the fire, that's the calcinatio process in alchemy, the burning away of the dross in order to produce the gold or the opus. And in the alchemical process, the burning produces what in the end is the whitening, the albedo. And so, Gandalf comes out the other end of that as Gandalf the white. And so, that process of growing one's inner wisdom is the first encountering or the reaching in to pose the question of what is my life for? What am I doing here? What is my purpose? And to be in a place of being able to hear that inner guiding voice, that inner something that gives you a sense of, yes, I do have a purpose. I do have meaning in my life. And I do have goals. And I do have a passion for fulfilling something that is within you. And then to be developing that inner dialogue with that wise part of oneself is what takes you through the various alchemical processes that sharpens your blade in terms of developing the skills and special talents and abilities that you as an individual have. Because again, everybody's different. So, the voice of your inner wise teacher is going to be slightly different from that of everyone else. But the important thing is that we have to go in there to call it out. [Speaker 2] (1:09:11 - 1:09:21) Yeah. It's interesting with the Gandalf character like this. Obviously, he's the embodiment of wisdom, but he seems to most easily relate to the hobbits and the children. [Speaker 1] (1:09:22 - 1:09:28) Yes. Yeah. The child, the childlike quality, the innocence, the openness. [Speaker 2] (1:09:29 - 1:09:29) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:09:31 - 1:14:02) Because a child is a lot more open to hearing about stuff, especially magical stuff. And whereas, as we get older, we tend to get more rigid sometimes in the way we perceive things and the stuff we learn. It's like, okay, well, I'm a grown up and it's this way now. Whereas with children or younger adults, even, that there's more openness to explore the realm of the unknown, the realm of the imaginal. What would the elves represent? And even more specifically, Arwen choosing to become immortal? Yeah. What does that process represent in your mind? Yeah. Well, first of all, I would say the elves are a representation of what humans can become. So, I think the elves are showing us where we're going, that we are all moving in the direction of elvishness, that that's what we are capable of. And what are the elves really all about? Well, first of all, they live in absolute and complete harmony with nature. And their belief system is such that they live not only in harmony with nature, but their purpose is to enhance the beauty of nature. And instead of to dominate or to use the natural world, and the images of Rivendell and Lothlorien, they're so beautiful and so full of light and just harmony. That is really, I think, our highest aspirations. So, the elves represent our highest aspirations. And I believe that it is what we are capable of. I think we are capable of and designed, even, to become elvish. They seem very, I guess, interested in, I guess, conserving their own traditions too, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. And doing so without conquering other domains. They're not conquering, they're preserving and enhancing and dedicating their life force to that beauty and harmony and creativity. Now, Arwen is rather similar to the goddess Aphrodite in that she, Aphrodite in her mythology, incarnated herself when she had an affair with a god or a mortal, or when she gave birth to a child, and she would literally become embodied. So, I think Arwen is a kind of a symbol that represents that Aphrodite kind of quality, that she incarnates herself in order to become a vessel for life. And not only just any old life, but in order to become the bearer of the next line of kings. So, she sacrifices, willingly, her immortality. And I think that women, when they do bear children, that it is that kind of a sacrifice. You incarnate and you sacrifice your you know, self, really. [Speaker 2] (1:14:02 - 1:14:08) Your life force, like how much life force are you choosing to dedicate towards giving life? [Speaker 1] (1:14:08 - 1:17:13) Yeah, that's right. And I mean, until fairly recent, 100 years or so, many women died in childbirth. So, there was a chance that you would not make it, or that your child would not make it. So, it was a serious business. And this is something that women nowadays have to be really digging into. Well, oh gosh, we could go for hours on what's happened to women. But we'll have to have you back because I'm sure there's lines of questioning we can get into. Oh, yeah. Well, and relating to your wife's work, your asthma, about the body, and how women have been separated from their own body. And yeah, we could go on and on about that. But as far as Arwen, as an archetype of that role of the maternal nurturing instincts, and since we already mentioned that one of the central themes is that all the mothers die of grief, including Arwen's mother, Celebrian, who is attacked by orcs. And although Elrond heals her physically, the fact that she was touched by evil, she never recovered spiritually and willingly left Middle-earth to go to the Undying Lands. So, for Arwen, the daughter of Celebrian and the granddaughter of Galadriel, to make that choice is a huge thing. And I would invite all women to think very carefully about that. And if you're a woman who has not born children in your life, or maybe not yet, it doesn't mean you don't have that archetypal nurturing, nourishing instinct. All women have that. Whether you have children of your own or not, that instinct is there, and it must be expressed. And it must be expressed in a healthy way. And so, I think this is a major course of learning for women at this time, especially the way women and the feminine at large are under attack, right? I mean, we have men dressing up like women and basically moving in and taking over everything that women supposedly fought to gain over the last century or so. [Speaker 2] (1:17:13 - 1:17:15) Well, they're the orcs, right? [Speaker 1] (1:17:16 - 1:19:59) Yeah, exactly. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. Orcs are invading the Westfold in every direction. Well, I mean, orcs also, yes, I hear what you're saying. But also, they would represent, I guess, the people who just mindlessly obey. Absolutely. They just go along, and they just do what they're told, and that's it. And maybe they don't have a deep connection to that innocent inner child. And I think this is why trauma-based mind control is so huge. It's like, if we're scared and we can traumatize people, and then they lose that disconnection to their body, that disconnection to part of them, they're more easily puppeted. Oh, yeah. That's a perfect description of orcification. And I know that both of you know and have interviewed Michael Tesarian, and one of the central themes of his work is this ancient trauma that we're all dealing with. And that's probably, to a large extent, why this trauma-based mind control that's being rolled out over us on a daily basis is so effective, because there is this deep, deep in the psyche, this ancient wound, this ancient trauma. And people who have not addressed that and or people who have been abused in their own life. And I mean, we're now coming to understand that it's monumental that you're hard-pressed to find anybody who's not had some kind of personal trauma. I mean, I would say especially the younger generations right now, because they're being born into this mess. So that's a trauma right off the top. And then what about the parents of the children that are being born now? So this orcification business has worked very well for the foe. And again, if we don't understand the nature of trauma, how to heal that at a personal level, then we're not going to recognize it in the outer world and know how to deal with it. And so the orcs are just running around crazed and literally burning things down. [Speaker 2] (1:20:00 - 1:20:02) Yeah, they're very collectivist, right? [Speaker 1] (1:20:02 - 1:20:03) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:20:03 - 1:20:18) Yeah. Even I guess we can talk about it, like with the worship of the eye, right? Of Sauron, like needing everyone to be seen all the time. No personal freedom, no personal private, no private property, no nothing private. [Speaker 1] (1:20:19 - 1:20:51) Yeah. Uh-huh. One ring to rule them all. I love when you do these quotes in your voice and I just love hearing it. He wants to do a few. Oh, really? One that I'll do and it's a perfect segue to what we'll get into is, my precious, my precious. You know, like Gollum, you know, that representation of a huge character in this story. I mean, we got eight, 10 minutes left and we can talk. [Speaker 2] (1:20:51 - 1:20:53) That's all right. That's better for Gollum, I know. [Speaker 1] (1:20:53 - 1:20:55) Yeah, we can keep going for a little bit. [Speaker 2] (1:20:56 - 1:21:01) But yeah, what is the representation of this iconic character? [Speaker 1] (1:21:01 - 1:23:28) Mm-hmm. Well, I think that Gollum represents the conflict between Ego and Shadow. And that Gollum in the story is the manifestation of the struggle that's going on within Frodo. Mm-hmm. That Frodo is wrestling down his own struggle. And that the process that Gollum is going through is that he succumbs to the ring. He loses himself. And it is only in that relationship with Frodo that he remembers something about himself prior to becoming Gollum. And Smeagol kind of comes through that little bit in the story. And due to Frodo's compassion, he is able to establish a relationship with Gollum that, well, ultimately, he needs Gollum to get to Mount Doom. So, I think that depicts that part of the hero's journey of dealing with one's own shadow and that conflict between Ego and Shadow. The Ego wants to be seen as good and nice and acceptable and all of that kind of thing. But if there has been trauma or shadow in the unconscious, well, then that Ego presentation, it's not true. There's a couple of real perfect scenes in the films of Gollum in the cave holding the Precious, stroking the Precious. Yeah, Precious. [Speaker 2] (1:23:29 - 1:23:32) The Precious. We just do this for the next 10 minutes back and forth. [Speaker 1] (1:23:33 - 1:24:16) Yeah. And so, what is the Precious then in our modern time? I would say it's the smartphone. The thing you cannot put down, you cannot put it away, you cannot hurt it, you cannot leave it alone. It's the Precious. Yeah. So, Gollum strokes the Precious while modern people stroke their smartphone. Yeah. Isn't that powerful? That's so deep. Wow. I got to sit with that one for a minute. [Speaker 2] (1:24:18 - 1:24:31) But just you saying that, I think, has just immediately shifted my relationship to my phone, like just looking at it and going, whoa, okay, I need to have a little bit more of a conscious relationship with it at times. [Speaker 3] (1:24:31 - 1:24:31) I know. [Speaker 1] (1:24:32 - 1:25:45) It holds great power as well, right? It does. It does. Ultimately, we have to learn to use the enemy's tool against it. But that's what the whole story is about. We have access to this power now in a way that we've never, ever had before in human history. Not only the power that just having that object, but it's a symbol of all the other great powers that we human beings have access to now. But the danger always is being possessed by it, as Gollum was, and as most people these days are, with that thing. I mean, yeah, go ahead. Well, no, I was just going to say, again, it's like, I was going to make a joke, one smartphone to rule them all. But again, through programming, through media, it's like, whoever has, you have the potential to impact a huge amount of people's lives with what shows up on this. [Speaker 2] (1:25:46 - 1:25:54) I know. Even if you take the knowledge that the smartphone is the ultimate distraction self-sabotage tool. [Speaker 1] (1:25:54 - 1:25:55) Yes, of course. [Speaker 2] (1:25:55 - 1:25:56) Gollum doesn't know who he is without it. [Speaker 1] (1:25:57 - 1:25:57) That's right. [Speaker 2] (1:25:58 - 1:26:01) Yeah. He has to be with himself. He can't be with himself. Yeah. So true. [Speaker 1] (1:26:02 - 1:27:02) Yeah, that's why he just has to have it. He's got to have that ring, because it's the only thing that it's like it mirrors him. And I think that is a real danger. And we see in the Lord of the Ring story, just touching that kind of power, and how it is so tempting. And look at what happens to Boromir. So when Boromir becomes filled with hubris, so touching into that power, getting access, even if it's just for a minute, to that much power, can trigger that hubris. [Speaker 3] (1:27:03 - 1:27:04) Mm-hmm. [Speaker 1] (1:27:04 - 1:27:28) And that is the big danger. It is hubris, always, that brings down the tyrants. But if we're going to use the enemy's tool against it, we have to be able to master that thing. We have to be able to put that thing down and walk away. [Speaker 2] (1:27:29 - 1:27:35) Well, it's kind of like it harkens back to that Galandriel quote that you mentioned, like it's a fine line, you know? [Speaker 1] (1:27:35 - 1:27:35) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:27:35 - 1:27:43) And both the company is true. You know, if there's people to hold us accountable, then we can wield these weapons appropriately, perhaps. [Speaker 1] (1:27:44 - 1:28:10) Mm-hmm. Well, yeah. I think it's yet to be seen if we can and will. Ultimately, I believe that we will overcome this evil that is upon us, and there will be a new age of men and women. [Speaker 2] (1:28:10 - 1:28:27) Just look at us now, you know? Our entire organization is done through a computer, through these applications, through our phone, you know, all these networks, all these communities, these conversations are being had. How many people will be listening to this episode on their smartphone? [Speaker 1] (1:28:27 - 1:29:26) Yeah. Large majority of our listeners, probably. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so, it is an incredible gift. But with every gift comes a curse. And if we're not personally, psychologically balanced and bringing forth our own kingship and queenship on the inside and staying embodied and grounded and anchored within a sense of purpose and meaning in our own communities, then we're susceptible to being tempted by that hubris. Like, oh, well, I've got the power now, and I'm going to rule the world. Or I'm going to use the power to do good. Yeah, that's the worst kind. [Speaker 3] (1:29:27 - 1:29:27) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:29:28 - 1:29:38) Because the worst evildoers in the world are the ones who roll themselves out as these philanthropists. [Speaker 2] (1:29:38 - 1:29:45) Yeah. Well, even the central bankers, they have the absolute power to print money, right? [Speaker 1] (1:29:45 - 1:29:46) They do. [Speaker 2] (1:29:46 - 1:29:50) And it's like absolute power corrupts absolutely every single time throughout history. [Speaker 1] (1:29:50 - 1:29:56) Yeah. And look at how full of hubris all these so-called people are. [Speaker 2] (1:29:57 - 1:29:57) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:29:57 - 1:30:31) I mean, it's just, it's incredible that they even have the gall to get up there and, you know, babble away about how great they are and all the wonderful things they're doing to save the world when those of us who are aware enough can see that they're just absolutely filled with hubris, and their so-called works are destructive and evil. [Speaker 3] (1:30:32 - 1:30:32) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:30:32 - 1:31:14) And they will go down as a result of that, hopefully sooner rather than later. Yeah. Because we're dealing with them now. This is the battle at the Black Gate, and the weapons that are being used against us are coming from every direction. It's no longer the battlefield scenario where, okay, you go out to the battle, shoot back and forth, and somebody wins in the end, and that's it. No. No, we're under attack from everywhere. Fifth generation. Everything is, yes, everything is weaponized now. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:31:16 - 1:31:28) Yeah. Speaking of Boromir, like briefly, one of the most, I think, touching and emotional scenes in all the series is, you know, Boromir's death. You know, his final words to Aragorn, I would have followed you, my brother, my captain. [Speaker 1] (1:31:29 - 1:33:41) Yeah, yeah. So, in that moment, Boromir rises to his kingship. Yeah. I mean, he loses his life, but he reclaims his soul. Yeah. And also in that moment, Aragorn sees that he could have been Boromir. So, it's that recognition of shadow, you know, like, whoa, that could have been me, because that was Aragorn's biggest fear all along, that he would be tempted by the power, and that he would be unable to resist, and that then he would be used by the forces of evil. And Boromir, you know, certainly was a charismatic leader, a man of kingly stature for sure, a great warrior, but he wound up falling to hubris, largely due to his father's, the negative effect of his father. His, you know, Denethor wanted Boromir and Faramir to mirror him. He was not, he didn't care about them. It was like they were there to get him what he wanted. And Boromir fell to that projection. So, Denethor was projecting, oh, you're the greatest, you're the strongest, you're the most awesome. You can wield the ring and bring it to me. And so, Boromir, out of his own woundedness, took on that projection and then fell to that temptation, but redeemed himself right at death. It is a touching scene, a beautiful scene, I think. [Speaker 2] (1:33:42 - 1:33:42) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:33:42 - 1:33:43) Especially between men. [Speaker 2] (1:33:44 - 1:33:47) Yeah. I noticed an emotional response come up in you the moment I brought up the scene. [Speaker 1] (1:33:48 - 1:34:31) Yeah. I mean, I got really, really emotional in the moment, just like tears welled up and goosebumps deep, you know, but even just that saying, my brother, you know, like, maybe I will follow you. It just showcases something about like masculine relationship and connection. And I think that's something that's missing too, like a deep warrior, but also a vulnerable, connected, you know, masculine relationship. And I think that's missing from the world. Oh, it sure is. And it sounds like the work that you guys are doing is really serving to help that and bring that to consciousness and develop that amongst other men. You know what's interesting, Lorelei? [Speaker 2] (1:34:31 - 1:34:42) 75% or more of our audience are women. Is that right? Yeah. And with our coaching programs, it's always predominantly females. [Speaker 1] (1:34:44 - 1:37:13) Yeah, I think that's kind of true in a lot of areas. And I would say just to the women listening that everything to do with kingship is a manifestation of your inner masculine. So, we can watch these films and understand the nature of the masculine principle as an inner construct that in order to be a fully realized queen, you must have a relationship to your inner king. And that inner masculine principle needs to go through all the stages of development that are represented in this story. And if a woman has not addressed and sustained a healthy relationship with her inner masculine, then she's not going to be able to sustain healthy relationships with outer men, because there will always be that projection of something that is unrealized in herself. And that will get projected out onto outer men. And then all of that expectation gets projected onto her man, like, you need to do this for me, you need to be this for me, in order that I can feel safe and comfortable. And that's not the way it works. But women are not supposed to be like men, either. And this is a very toxic message that women have been presented with, certainly since the 1960s. It's like, well, you don't need a man, you can do it all yourself. And I mean, now we're being told that it's all interchangeable. There's no difference between men and women. And I mean, obviously, it's dangerous to men, but I think it's extremely dangerous to women, because it teaches us to reject and deny the power and importance of the inner masculine in a woman's psyche. And that really is the work that individual women need to be doing right now, in order to have a real true love and appreciation of the man in our life. [Speaker 2] (1:37:16 - 1:37:36) Well said. I think that definitely seems to be the kind of clientele that we tend to be attracting, the people that tend to be drawn to our coaching program, too, which is all about becoming an individual, becoming yourself, walking your path. So, there's definitely a reclamation of that happening for women. [Speaker 1] (1:37:36 - 1:41:05) Yeah. Well, I just wanted to say that maybe why so many women are drawn to your work is because you are men of kingly stature, and you are presenting an image of kingship that is authentic and human. And as I said earlier, it was said that to be seen by the king was to be blessed. And so, for men to hold that kingly stature, and to see the qualities in men and women, and to hold a space for that, for men and women, to come to some understanding of what kingship really is, we need to be seen by those who have the eyes to see. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. Appreciate the kind words, and we're continuing on our journey and growing as men and doing our part to help inspire others. And I think also, too, I think the women that are drawn to our work, too, they're definitely not in that place where they're embodying the hatred of man part of them. There's a respect for the masculine on some level that I think is important in that regards that can help them also kind of further integrate it. Right. And a need to relate to and know actual men of kingly stature. And for women, I think it needs to be more on the personal level rather than the archetypal. So, we were just touching in on the symbolism of Donald Trump and this king archetype constellating in the collective that men would, I would suspect, get more inspiration from that as an external archetype. And then the support that you cultivate between each other and other kingly men. I think for women, it needs to be a little more personal for men that they know personally. And for a lot of women, we didn't have that in our fathers because our fathers were castrated and wounded and not really expressing their kingship. I mean, at least for the most part. And so, individual women, I would say need to have some kind of experience of actual living men in their life that they can interact with and learn about what that masculine energy is all about so that they can find it in themselves and unite with it in that what Jung calls the Mysterium Conjunctionis, the mystic marriage, the inner marriage, the masculine, feminine. [Speaker 2] (1:41:07 - 1:41:28) Yeah. Lorelei, this has been one of my favorite conversations that we've had. Oh, wonderful. So much to explore. And one of my favorite topics to discuss is always on the archetypal level, certainly. What's a closing message that you'd like to leave our audience with? [Speaker 1] (1:41:31 - 1:42:30) Well, maybe I would just repeat the words of Aragorn before the troops as they went to the Black Gate. And so, he says to them, The day may come when the courage of men fails, when we break all bonds of fellowship. A day of wolves and smashing shields and the age of men comes crashing down. But it is not this day. This day we fight with all that you hold dear on this good earth. I bid you stand, men and women of the West. [Speaker 2] (1:42:35 - 1:42:39) Potent. So potent. Yeah. I want to watch the movies again. [Speaker 1] (1:42:42 - 1:42:45) Yeah. They will never die. [Speaker 2] (1:42:45 - 1:43:05) No. Yeah. Just briefly, I know we've got a hint that we're ending this podcast, but in Tolkien writing this, is he tapped into some kind of foresight, some kind of collective archetypal forthcoming? What's going on there? [Speaker 1] (1:43:05 - 1:44:55) I think so. I think so. As he tells the story himself, this myth came to him, as he says himself, it came as a whole thing that he was just kind of downloading. And so, here's a young man, I think he was in his early 20s, sitting in the trenches in World War I. So, we're talking like bombs going off and you know, people's arms and legs blown off. I mean, all his friends were killed. And so, he's sitting in that place. And he was writing in his little notebook, these things that were coming to him. And it all came through his study of the languages. He heard the languages. And because he was a philologist and a student, a scholar of ancient Northern European languages, the guy spoke 35 languages. Holy shit. Yeah, of ancient dialects. And so, he heard the story through these languages. And the images and the whole scenario just kind of rolled out while he was in this place, this horrible place. So, I think that certainly was his vocatio. And that he was a man who rose to his greatness. Came out the other end of that with this incredible gift that he brought to humanity. [Speaker 2] (1:44:58 - 1:45:06) Yeah, incredible. And you've certainly found your boon and brought your gift as well through this ongoing process. So, thank you so much. [Speaker 1] (1:45:07 - 1:45:10) Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. This has been a great pleasure. [Speaker 2] (1:45:11 - 1:45:20) Oh, for sure. Lorelei, how can our people find you? What would you like to direct them towards in terms of, I guess, consuming more of this information or getting in contact with you even? [Speaker 1] (1:45:21 - 1:45:49) Yes, well, I would love that. My greatest joy is to do my personal work, my consultation work. And so, people can find me at my website and it's llastrology-l-o-t-r.com. At least I think that's what it is. Maybe you can just put it in the chat or whatever. [Speaker 2] (1:45:49 - 1:45:53) It'll be in the brief, wherever people are concerned. [Speaker 1] (1:45:54 - 1:47:04) Yeah, great. Well, people can just go there and to my website. And then there's the information about my astrology work and the description of the series, which is under the tab Eowyn Sword. So, that just gives a description of the series and kind of what it's about. And then on the presentations page, you'll find all the videos in my series and then the interviews that I've done like with David and some of the other people along the way. And I've been doing some interviews recently as well with David Whitehead and Josh Reed on Earth Chronicles and I'm going to be on with them tomorrow talking about some recent events. And yeah, that's kind of where to find me. Amazing. Tell David and Josh to say hello. Totally. All right, I will. Okay, you two, thank you so much. And you keep doing your King work. [Speaker 2] (1:47:04 - 1:47:07) I appreciate you. And guys, thanks for listening. Take care.