Joel & Yerasimos The Hero's Journey

[Speaker 1] (0:13 - 1:07) Hey guys, welcome to Here for the Truth, Episode 2, Yerasimos and I are back. Thank you for the amazing feedback from Episode 1, we really appreciate it. It's good to put it out there and we'd like to continue that conversation. We want to delve a bit deeper into our journeys, our path of seeking truth and basically the unfolding that's taken place for us. So yeah, man, let's get into it. I've got a bit of an opening quote here. Where some people have a self, most people have a void because they are too busy in wasting their vital creative energy to project themselves as this or that, dedicating their lives to actualizing the concept of what they should be rather than actualizing their potentiality as a human being. And that's a quote by the great philosopher and martial artist of the 20th century, Bruce Lee. How does that feel? [Speaker 2] (1:07 - 3:33) Yeah, it's a great quote and I think it works perfectly with just what we're going to talk about today. We're doing this podcast because it's a passion project for us and we came together because the truth is really, really important and living authentically is really important to both of us. And because we're going to be interviewing other guests and everything, we also want you to kind of get an idea of where we come from and what our journey is like. So yeah, man, I mean, the quote relates deeply to me in the sense that I don't know, again, what it is in my life that caused me to make all these different changes and had these different crossroads in my life. But I've had so many of them, you know, where it was like, no, at the end of the day, what is it that turns me on, you know? And I'm not saying that just in the sexual sense, but what lights me up? And if something isn't working, like how am I going to make that change? And I felt like especially, I would say for me, you know, starting probably in university and college. And actually a huge turning point for me was my third semester in college, I went to Boston University. This is like almost 20 years ago, actually. I studied abroad in Sydney, Australia. And I chose to go there because it was the furthest away from the U.S. And my university had its own building in Sydney and different students from the U.S. kind of like applied through that program. So I spent four months in Sydney right before I turned 21 years old. And it was a beautiful experience, you know? I also met lots of different people, a lot of Aussies who had been traveling for one or two years, you know? And in my mind, in our culture in the States, that's not a thing. Like we don't have the gap year that like the U.K. and I know Australians and I think maybe other places have. And so to be meeting people who have traveled around the world and were exploring life in a different way, as opposed to following that, this is how you should live, okay? You're going to go to school. You're going to do what your teachers say. You're going to listen to your parents. You're going to finish. You're going to go to college or not. You're going to then immediately get a job. Yeah, you know? Which, hey, that works. Yeah, that works for some people, you know? [Speaker 1] (3:33 - 3:34) The preplanned, pre-calc pop. [Speaker 2] (3:35 - 4:09) Exactly. And for me, it didn't feel that way, you know? And when I met these people and I lived on my own in Australia and I was traveling around Australia, that seed was planted. And I went, one day, I'm going to take a year off and backpack around the globe. I don't know how that's going to look, but I'm going to do it. And so from that moment on, that seed of long-term travel or going on a journey was planted. And yeah, I mean, if you want to talk a little bit, I mean, I could go into my story, into my journey. [Speaker 1] (4:09 - 4:37) Nah, man, go for it. Like, it's just, I'm wondering, so like, how does that begin to open? Just the idea of, wow, I can actually have my own experience as opposed to the experience that I've kind of always assumed that I was going to have moving forward. And how does that, once that seed is planted, what did it look like for you going forward from there? [Speaker 2] (4:38 - 4:42) Well, first it started even just making the decision to go to Australia. [Speaker 3] (4:43 - 4:43) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (4:43 - 5:48) I had people go, oh, you gotta be careful. There's a lot of sharks and kangaroos there. You know, like what? You know, you're talking 20 something years ago. And so I just thought that was odd. So what is it that made me curious? You know, I think I had an innate curiosity, which, you know, you talk about even with like, whether it's my cards or my tarot staff with astrology or other things that we've talked about, we're both into explore that. So I've had this innate curiosity. Yeah. Okay. So I'm in this new environment and I'm taking in information. I'm having new experiences that are then fueling new thoughts, you know, are fueling my imagination. And a lot of the decisions that I've made in my life have been something that just zinged me. It was like, you're doing this, you're studying in Australia, you know, you're going to travel, you're going to, you're going to take a year off and travel. You know what, when you graduate college, you're going to backpack Europe for three months. So, and I graduated college. This was in 2002. I took my savings, I packed up a backpack and I traveled around the Europe for two and a half months. [Speaker 1] (5:49 - 5:49) Wow. [Speaker 2] (5:49 - 5:50) You know. [Speaker 1] (5:50 - 7:01) It's so interesting you say that, man, because like everything you're talking about just to me and my understanding of what I do through divination, it's so archetypal to you because that curiosity and that will to discover and investigate, that's such a specific Gemini in shape. And you mentioned that you continually found yourself at a crossroads, at a junction, right? And in the tarot, we have the lover's card, which represents Gemini. And as you can see, these two individuals are in fact at a crossroads. And that is generally the overarching theme for a native Gemini. It's continually finding yourself at that crossroads, at that junction and saying, okay, which one actually feels right? And am I going to risk the comfortability and the acceptance and the overarching acknowledgement from the collective? Or am I going to choose something that's more intrinsic to me and have my own journey of discovery? And I mean, that journey of discovery is really what it's all about, right? [Speaker 2] (7:02 - 7:47) Yeah. And for me too, it's like I had, you know, my parents were both born and raised in Greece. You know, they're Greek immigrants into the States. My dad came to this country with no money in his pocket and built up a business to be able to provide for his family. Like he's much more of a practical man. So some of the decisions that I made in my life, let's just say he probably wasn't 100% he wasn't 100% in approval of, but he still supported me, you know, because at the same time he made that journey. My dad left Greece to be a merchant Marine and work on all the ships. And he's a fellow, well, he's a Gemini in Western astrology, June 9th. But I remember he mentioned something about the last seven days. So maybe he had some more cancerian energy. Is that what you're saying? [Speaker 1] (7:48 - 8:05) Well, in the telescopic system due to the procession of the equinoxes, unless you're in the last six days currently of your house, then yeah, you'd move forward to the next. So he would be a native cancerian and Capricorn rising was opposite that. So more traditional. [Speaker 2] (8:06 - 8:40) And definitely, it definitely is, you know, definitely was more traditional. But at the end of the day, it's like going back on what we talked about the last episode. It's like, what is that, that inner, that inner voice, that whisper, you know, that, you know, people call it your higher self. Like, I don't know, I don't know what that is. But it's just that intuition, that instinct, something within you where I was like, this is what I have to do. This is where I'm, I'm feeling pulled and drawn. You know, it's not like a, I can't say it's like a rational, sometimes it's not a rational decision, even though I will think about it. It's like, no, this is, this is pulling me. [Speaker 1] (8:41 - 9:09) But yeah, of course, I know what you mean. Because this is the, this is the underlying archetypal mythical motif that we are all standing upon. Okay. But some just don't, I guess, tend to, tend to acknowledge it. But one way or another, this, this mythical journey, this, this underlying, I guess, whisper is, is kind of always there. [Speaker 2] (9:10 - 9:20) And you're either paying attention to it, or you're not, or you're ignoring it. You're pushing it away. You're, you're, whatever the case may be, you're eating it away. You're drinking it away. You're fucking it away. [Speaker 1] (9:21 - 9:55) But, and the more you push it away, the more you repress that, the more you suppress that, really, the less, I guess, human you become. And the more aggressive you become, the more narcissistic you become, the more, the more tendency towards the rigid, fixed structures you become. Because essentially, you're denying what it is that makes you human. It's that, it's that oceanic experience. It's not a fixed thing. It's, it's, it's the, it's the feeling and the intrinsic knowing that there is something more unfolding. [Speaker 2] (9:56 - 10:56) Yeah. I agree. So it's been, it's been an interesting journey, dude. Yeah. Without a doubt. And I'm really grateful for all the choices that have led me to where I am right now, as I sit here across from you and have this dialogue and this conversation. So, man, it's, and it's part of the hero's journey, you know, like the first part is leaving the comfort of my home, of my parents, and even going away to university and living on my own and making mistakes and experimenting with some drugs and, and just doing some crazy shit, you know, like that was part of it. And then throughout all these different journeys through the different trips, you know, I've been over 15 months of backpacking that I've done that first trip in 2002. And then in 2008, I took a year off and it's like, I met different teachers. I read tons of books, you know, so it's like, how am I feeding myself and fueling myself and challenging my beliefs and, and having aha moments, you know, that's, that's been part of it. [Speaker 1] (10:57 - 11:51) I mean, absolutely. And it's almost like looking back, you see where like, you see, there's like this invisible thread where like, without one of those experiences, without, without, without the sequence of those things taking place, really, you would never have been able to build it to find yourself where you are now. And you see that there are no synchronicities, right? And everything in a sense kind of had to happen for you to, to learn and discover to get to where you are. I've got this, I've got this another amazing quote here by psychologist Eric Fromm. He says, the majority of well-adapted individuals have lost their own self at an early age and replaced it completely with a social self offered to them by society. They have no neurotic conflicts because they themselves, and therefore the discrepancy between themselves and the outside world have disappeared. [Speaker 2] (11:55 - 11:58) So yeah, I want you to talk about that quote. [Speaker 1] (11:58 - 12:59) Well, the question for me is what separates those that are intrinsically willing to listen to that underlying pull, the underlying archetypal hero's journey and motif that we've been talking about and those that I guess are just going to completely be absorbed by the collective and by the societal pressure and the societal ideal, ideal for themselves. I know we discussed this briefly last time, but it's such a curious thing. Is it merely the extents of the conditioning and the programming and the trauma that's placed upon us? Or is there a different will within each of us that are more inclined towards seeing something else, seeing the bigger picture using the whole brain cognition and going out on your own and finding that out? I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? [Speaker 2] (12:59 - 13:48) I don't know outside of it's this amalgamation of how you're raised, the time period you're raised, your astrology, your human design, all these esoteric divination arts. Plus, again, if you want to get into the concept of reincarnation or having an older soul or just having experienced different things in past lives, if you believe that, then maybe in this lifetime, you're meant to do something different. Maybe you're going to have that deeper connection to that voice within and you're less likely to be swallowed up by the crowd mind or the herd mind. I don't have the answers. All I know is I look around and I always ask myself, I go, well, why? I'm so curious. That's a big reason I think why we're doing this show. [Speaker 3] (13:48 - 13:49) Yeah, no, absolutely, man. [Speaker 2] (13:50 - 14:09) The show is like, well, why? All these different people we're going to have on the show, I think we share this thread. We're going to share a thread of, there was something else about life that we wanted, that beyond just what mom, dad, teacher, society, priest, class, government, et cetera, is telling us how to be. [Speaker 1] (14:10 - 17:49) Yeah, definitely, man. For me, I just always felt this deep set antipathy towards traditional modes of work. I started writing music and poetry when I was about 15, 16 years old. I remember just looking up beats on my computer and just writing rhymes. And I never felt as good in anything that I did as to when I was in those flows and activated that flow state. And when I finished a song and then went over a song and was like, wow, I created that out of nothing. And I could never, never in a million years imagine for myself doing something, I guess, mundane, as opposed to doing something which I knew fed my soul and nourished me and made me feel like there was a connection. There was so much more. It made me feel wholeness, right? Why do you think that is? Why? Well, to me, once I had that experience, it's like, if I'm to reject this feeling or reject this intrinsic aspect of myself, which makes me feel so good, how could I possibly make that choice? How could I make that decision? How could I make the decision to become a shell of myself and repress and neglect what is innate to me? So I just kept freaking doing that. And I knew that's what I wanted to do. That's all I wanted to do. And for the longest time, I thought, you know, this was my calling. This was my passion. This was my desire. Hip hop was going to be my life no matter what. But my relationship with hip hop, I guess, became in a way corrupted because all of a from making hip hop. And so it proved to my friends and to my family and to the world that writing music is a sufficient way to be well adapted to society as well. Whereas now I realize that it doesn't have to be that at all. You know what I mean? I can get as much fulfillment from simply writing a song as I did in the beginning when I first came across, you know what I mean, this intrinsic aspect of myself. And it doesn't have to be everything else that everyone else expects. So for a long time, I had this, these opposing forces where I had this love, you know what I mean, this passion for writing music, for hip hop, for poetry, for what I was doing. But also this underlying angst where it's like, I've got to get to a certain point with this thing. Otherwise, it's never going to be OK in the eyes of everyone else. And these are the things, right? So when people find their passion and find something which gives them a semblance of wholeness and spirit or just something other than mundane society, then all of a sudden they come against the pressure of that. And it's almost like, why aren't you doing what we're doing? In a sense, you know? So, yeah, man, it's interesting. But the most important thing for me was that I knew that there's something in me that was never going to reject that. Never in a million years, no matter what, was I going to suppress and neglect that. [Speaker 2] (17:50 - 18:08) Yeah, me neither, dude. I mean, I think this is why we're here, where we're at. And I can't say it's all been roses and unicorns, you know what I mean? It's part of the journey and it's part of learning lessons and building more resilience and discovering who you are, you know, through challenges. [Speaker 3] (18:08 - 18:09) Absolutely, man. [Speaker 2] (18:09 - 18:55) I remember when I was, after I left, after I got back from college, I got this corporate hotel job and, you know, I grew up in the restaurant business. So I really like making people happy. I thought I was going to, you know, work in the hotel business or have restaurants or whatever the case may be. And I got this hotel job and I really enjoyed it. I was young, I was like 20, 22 years old at the time. I was in charge of managing a bunch of people. I had some really cool mentors there, you know, I really appreciate it. I learned a lot. But this was post 9-11, you know, the industry kind of took a hit. The company was a little bit more corporate. And I felt like my, I felt like my creativity and certain elements that I thought were a big piece of who I was was, were slowly like, the light, well, yeah, like the light was kind of dimming. [Speaker 1] (18:55 - 18:55) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (18:56 - 18:59) And I hit another one of those moments where. [Speaker 3] (18:59 - 19:01) What am I going to do about this? Yeah. [Speaker 2] (19:01 - 19:22) Yeah. What am I gonna do about this? And it was like, okay, if I continue on this path, what is my life going to look like? You know, I probably could have gotten a lot of social esteem. I could have been successful. I could have, you know, done well, but there was something in me that just wasn't being fed. You know, it was that connection to spirit that was dying in some way. [Speaker 1] (19:22 - 19:34) And the idea of losing yourself in doing that to you obviously was far more scarier than the idea of never actually finding out what would happen if I pulled this through. [Speaker 2] (19:34 - 19:47) Yeah. And, you know, I was fortunate at that time, like that job, I was placed close to where I grew up. So I lived home and I worked all the time and I saved money. So I saved some money, which gave me the freedom to say, fuck it. [Speaker 3] (19:47 - 19:47) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (19:47 - 20:10) You know, like, oh shit, it's 2004. The Olympics are in Greece. I'm gonna go to Greece. My parents have a little place in Greece. You know, I'm gonna go to my parents' house with a suitcase full of books and do nothing but read. That's what I did. Yeah. I took money I saved and I just went on this journey and just, I sat and read eight hours a day, different books. [Speaker 3] (20:10 - 20:10) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (20:10 - 20:13) You know, just, and it changed my world, you know? [Speaker 3] (20:13 - 20:13) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (20:13 - 20:45) To have that time, that space to just be, to even kind of be bored, to just kind of sit there and look at a fig tree for like 20 minutes and contemplate. Something that feels a little bit more challenging in this fast paced technology driven world with all our devices, we're moving from one thing to the next. And so it's a period of my life that I look back on really fondly and it changed my life and it changed the trajectory of my life. Without making that decision, I wouldn't be where I am today. And so many things happened after that. [Speaker 1] (20:45 - 24:16) Maybe we'll get into later, but yeah, man, it's- Did you ever get to a point where, like when you were in that place where you just want to sit with a fig tree for 20 minutes kind of thing, where you thought this is all I want to do and I don't really have to do anything or want to do anything or act in a way? Because I know for me, like my, I guess, initial awakening period, it was through like The Power of Now, Eckhart Tolle. I just finished a really difficult period where my career with hip hop really didn't satisfy my ego the way I wanted it to. My first long-term relationship just ended. Then I came across this book and I read it and my consciousness shifted in a way. But looking back now, I realize it was kind of an ego consciousness that was waking up as opposed to what would I consider now a realer and more authentic understanding of self. And I did for a long time myself swallow a lot of new age pills. And I found myself in a position where I felt like I really didn't have to exert my will in the world or put myself out there. I just wanted to be at peace where I am in my body, accept everything, resist nothing. Everything is what it is. There's nothing that I need to do except go with the flow of wherever the river of life is kind of taking me in a way. And I found myself in a position where I lost my individuality for a while there. I'll be really honest about that because I accepted these notions so deeply that there was nothing that I had to do. Everything was all good. You know what I mean? All I had to do was be with what is. And I took that on on such a core level where eventually that light within me became diminished because everything was feeding off me because I had no real healthy boundaries or no real sense of self because I became a nothing. I became a nobody in the way, in the eyes of a Ram Dass or an Eckhart Tolle or a Wayne Dyer until on my hero's journey, you know what I mean, everything that I repressed and neglected by taking on those ideas obviously caused my shadows become a bit louder, you know? And that was the real turning point for me was when I decided to realise that these philosophies aren't working for me. Something's not right here. You know what I mean? I'm finding myself just kind of trying to passively keep all these flames around me at a bay and only until I walked into the flames and really, you know what I mean, put myself into the fire to burn, you know what I mean, what I created that was false was I able to really then begin to, I guess, understand who I am. And have that journey of true self-discovery, something that is not given to me by anyone else, by any other book. It's my own gnosis, my own knowledge, my own understanding based upon decisions I've made and my own experiences and always adjusting based on how that feels for me and what I know is right and my sense of morality. [Speaker 2] (24:20 - 24:33) What was it that was the trigger for you? You know, obviously you went down some of this new age kind of journey, this path. What was it like? What happened in your life that caused the big shift? Or was there like a dark night of the soul that... [Speaker 1] (24:33 - 24:39) You mean that caused the shift into my, what I would call my new age awakening or my... No, no, like after it. After that. [Speaker 2] (24:39 - 24:42) Like when you said the shadow was getting a little larger. [Speaker 1] (24:43 - 25:17) I found myself hiding from my real self. I found myself in a position where almost I created a pseudo-self out of these new age ideas of everything's all good. Everything is roses and unicorns. I'm already enlightened. I'm already perfect. Everything's perfect. There's no negative. And I, you know what I mean? Eventually when you do that long enough, you create a facade to keep that up because it's not reality and it's never reality. You know what I mean? [Speaker 2] (25:19 - 26:06) Yeah, dude, I have a really... I never went too deep. I never really got into Eckhart Tolle, but I have a lot of people that are. And I think there's value. I think there's gifts for sure. Being in Los Angeles, there is this pseudo-spirituality. There is an epidemic of spiritual bypassing where you utilize spiritual ideas, principles, concepts to live above certain realities of being human. Some of the darker elements, some of the more raw, the emotions. It's like, well, no, okay. Something bad could happen to a person and they won't allow themselves to have the experience of the thing that happened and just be, well, everything happens for a reason. It was meant to be. It was meant to happen. And it's like, well, there's more to life experience than that. [Speaker 1] (26:07 - 26:24) But I mean, when you begin to develop the whole brain of cognition and that whole brain recognition, it's like everything is a polarity. Everything's a duality. How can that darkness not exist? It's just as real. You know what I mean? If not real life. [Speaker 2] (26:24 - 26:45) And there is a compensatory nature to the human psyche. So if you over-identify with one way of being or one ideology, what is lingering on the opposite side? What is buried on the other side within your consciousness that will come back to haunt you in some way? Or you will project it on other people. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (26:47 - 26:58) And this is ultimately the issue with ideology in general, right? An ideology that is given to us as opposed to ideology that is learned by the self, for the self, from within. [Speaker 2] (26:59 - 27:07) And exploring both sides of something. You know, it's like, how can you know what a thing is if you're just looking at it just from its opposite? [Speaker 3] (27:08 - 27:08) Yes. [Speaker 2] (27:08 - 27:28) You know, like there has to be this dance between opposites. And it's funny, I had a teacher once, he was talking about what enlightenment is. And it's like the ability to dance between opposites. You know? And what does that mean? It's not just like, oh, I've arrived. I can sit on the top of the mountain and meditate for seven hours. Or I never get angry. I'm not an angry person. You know, it's just like... [Speaker 1] (27:28 - 28:03) Even the concept that enlightenment in general is linked to luminosity or actual luminescence or light in general, right? Because in the esoteric tradition, enlightenment, it's not luminosity. It's weightlessness. It's a lightness. It's a lightness that's achieved by recognizing the heaviness and by working through that heaviness and by acknowledging the heaviness and the darkness and bringing it forth, right? Integrating as opposed to rejecting it and carrying it on your backpack and saying, it's not really there. [Speaker 2] (28:03 - 28:29) Yeah. It actually relates a lot to the work that I do, the somatic work, where it's like, we have this heaviness and this rigidity, this armoring. Yeah. We're restoring so much in our bodies, the toxicity, the wounding, you know, that stuck blocked energy, all those repressed emotions. What happens when you create space for that to move and to flow, to be integrated, to be experienced? Yeah. There is a lightness that happens. [Speaker 1] (28:30 - 29:29) Because that heaviness ultimately is linked to the stagnation of that bioenergy, right? And ultimately, intrinsically, that bioenergy is the shadow in extent. If that's not moving, if that's not flowing, then those unconscious processes are never going to be brought to the surface and allowed to be felt and processed. Because as you said, through repression, it stagnates and that trauma stays in our body, right? Until we touch our body, until we understand somatic intelligence, until we connect the breath and the body and we allow our body to feel what's happening as opposed to trying to psychoanalyze everything. I mean, would you say generally that shadow work can actually be achieved just through the body without really having to get to an analytical route of what happens? [Speaker 2] (29:30 - 31:21) I do. I mean, I think there are different access points. I think it's important. The mental, cerebral, conceptual work is important, but there's something that is different when you bypass the conscious mind and tap in directly into the subconscious, into the unconscious, looking at the body as the shadow. You mentioned the bioenergy. What happens when you work with that, when you manipulate it? I mean, it was life-changing for me. My foundational education was really getting into a lot of the psychological stuff, some of the spiritual new age stuff. I trained as an actor for 10 years, and I was really blessed to have a lot of really awesome training and personal development work and self-exploration work. But for me, it wasn't really until, one, I really tightened up how I ate and how I took care of myself and ate real food and natural foods. Then when I moved to Los Angeles over eight years ago, and I met a teacher and a mentor of mine, he was an ex-Navy SEAL. He was trained in traditional Chinese medicine, and he kind of took me under his wing. I learned some really powerful modalities that help get this bioenergy flowing, to get the blood moving, the lymph flowing, to break down some of this armoring, to soften my tissues. To get the pain out of the body, that was game-changing for me. It sounds crazy to say this, but sometimes I say it. It's like this element of Jedi training, but it's like, you ever see the movie The Matrix? When Neo, they shoot the gun at him, and he dodges the bullets. It felt that life slowed down, that things that normally would trigger me and have me go off didn't impact me in the same way. There was a lightness. There was more freedom within. [Speaker 1] (31:22 - 32:03) Without that, your relationship with time and desire is completely different when you're simply doing things from left brain cognition, as opposed to whole body intelligence and whole psyche understanding. We're always chasing. We're always looking for that next thing. We're always looking to be gratified in a certain way because we lack that abundance within. The true desireless state, not the renunciate state, the true desireless state is being comfortable within one's own being, within one's own body, and having that bioenergy flowing, and having that feeling of aliveness within the body, I think. [Speaker 2] (32:03 - 32:18) Yeah. The aliveness and the subtle awareness of what is happening moment to moment, subtle sensations. There are times where I talk to people, I work with people, and it's like, well, what are you noticing in your body? I feel fine. [Speaker 1] (32:19 - 32:30) Yeah. But how often would anyone even come to that observation or be asked the question to actually tune in and be like, how's my body feeling right now? What is it telling to me? [Speaker 2] (32:31 - 32:50) Right now, as I'm talking right now, I have this connection to my body, and I feel a slight tingling sensation on my palms. I feel a little vibration in my left thigh. So it's like, how do we create that knowledge within the subtlety? Oh, there's my bottom right foot right now. It feels like it's a little warm. You know what I mean? That level of nuance. [Speaker 1] (32:51 - 33:07) Yeah. That is the sensitizing, isn't it? That is like, we all have this armory. We all have it. And without developing the sensitivity, it's actually open that gateway and build the connection to the body. You're not going to get there, I guess. [Speaker 2] (33:08 - 33:44) It's just different. It's a different way of working with consciousness, with personal development. I think it's important. I don't think you can just talk your way out of trauma. It's a subconscious process that's happening when you experience something traumatic in your life. Just to sit there and talk about the thing that happened when you were 7, 8, 9, 15, 20 a week ago, it may help you gain some analysis and awareness. But there is an intelligence that's happening way beyond what your conscious mind can even grasp. [Speaker 1] (33:46 - 34:02) And I know Michael Tesserian always talks about the three folds. Having a balanced relationship between the eigenwelt being the self, the mitwelt being the social world and the world around us, and the unwelt being nature. [Speaker 2] (34:03 - 34:04) Existential trinity, right? [Speaker 1] (34:04 - 34:31) Existential trinity. Yeah, that's it. And without that imbalance, and obviously the body being the primordial, your first environment, dome, then you are going to be out of balance. Because without that eigenwelt in tune, you are going to be inclined to be more collectivist in a sense. And if any one of those three are out, then of course there is disorder. [Speaker 2] (34:31 - 34:49) Yeah, there needs to be the balance, the integration of the three. Because at the end of the day, we are also social beings. But how can you hold your individuality while still remaining in relationship? We're relational beings. It's not like, oh, hey, fuck the world. I'm going to go live in a cave for the next 50 years. [Speaker 3] (34:50 - 34:51) Now, OK, you can do that. [Speaker 2] (34:52 - 35:17) It's different. You know, I was going to say it's interesting because you can escape and go to an ashram and meditate 10 hours a day. But then it's like, OK, well, who was it? Was it Ram Dass or someone said, oh, if you want to see how enlightened you are, go spend a holiday with your family, and then see how you can navigate and deal with all of that. [Speaker 1] (35:17 - 35:37) Yeah, yeah. But I mean, just the idea that that leads to us having to have gurus, right? And having to have a picture of a guru on the wall, in a sense, because in that, you know, maybe we've lost our sense of self. So yeah, yeah, come fill the space with my face on your wall kind of thing. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (35:37 - 35:50) And again, it's the balance between it's like, it's good to have teachers. But to what degree then you like, I lose my sense of self and I'm a follower and everything you say is the holy gospel, you know? [Speaker 1] (35:51 - 36:13) Nothing is easier for men to practice than self renunciation. They do it every day. It's not a difficult feat or a moral achievement. It's a disease, not selfishness, but the absence of self, not self esteem, but self alienation makes possible the barbaric cruelty that men practice against one another by Nathaniel Brandon. [Speaker 2] (36:13 - 36:17) I was going to say, was that a Nathaniel Brandon quote? That definitely sounds like him. [Speaker 1] (36:17 - 36:30) That's the thing, man. Because when the morality is given to us by everything out there, as opposed to real morality, which comes from in here, I mean, ultimately, of course, this is what takes place. [Speaker 2] (36:31 - 36:48) Yeah, man, that's a great quote. You know, I got to finish this one book. What is it? The Six Pillars of Self Esteem. But a wise, wise man that I obviously recommend anyone who's watching this to look into his work, considered the father of self esteem. [Speaker 3] (36:48 - 36:48) Wow. [Speaker 2] (36:49 - 37:41) Yeah, and it's interesting that you talk about that, because part of my journey when I think about is when I was, I would say, in my 30s, especially, but I realized that a lot of my identity was built around what other people thought of me. So I was getting esteem, but externally. So it was, you know, all my teachers thought I was a great actor, or I was smart, or I worked hard at my job, or my parents loved me, or whatever the case may be. So it was like, all my friends thought I was a good friend. I'm a good person, you know, like, I have value because of, look, all these people think all these things. And it wasn't until I moved to Los Angeles, and just did another Dark Night of the Soul for me, where it was just like, well, who am I? Because I left all of that in New York City, and I came out to LA, and it was like, well, who am I, outside of what all these people think about me? [Speaker 1] (37:41 - 37:41) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (37:41 - 37:45) That took things to a whole other level. [Speaker 1] (37:46 - 39:04) And like, without asking those questions, you're like, which the majority of people will never probably do, the big questions, what am I doing here? What is going on? Who am I? What is this experience? Right? Then again, to me, you can't possibly begin to open to the oceanic, mythological, archetypal motif that really is the hero's journey, and really is calling us all the time to step into our true potential. And just back on what we were discussing, like, the idea of selflessness that comes from the renunciate path, and the complete rejection of self-care, and self-love, and ultimately, selfishness in the positive way of putting yourself first, and deciding what it is that you're inclined towards, what you like, who am I, and how can I build upon that, as opposed to how can I continually give every single part of myself away to be seen as a good guy by everything else. [Speaker 2] (39:04 - 39:32) I feel like, definitely, Vandal Brandon and Ayn Rand spoke a lot about that. She wrote a book called The Virtue of Selfishness. And of course, I think she got a lot of flack for that, because of, again, that word holds its connotation. You know, oh my God, you're so selfish. I mean, we're experiencing it with the world that we're living in today. Like, how dare you not wear a mask? You're so selfish. You want everyone to die. How dare you not do what your presidents, and your prime ministers, and your government officials, and your health ministers tell you? You're so selfish. [Speaker 1] (39:32 - 40:32) Yeah. And we started through childhood. You know what I mean? Yeah. Share everything. Why aren't you sharing? Why aren't you, you know what I mean? You don't have to have anything for yourself, right? It's almost like everyone can have everything. We all share it together, in a sense, you know what I mean? And the moment, that's just the seed of it. But as that develops, you open yourself up to any parasitical force, because you don't develop those healthy boundaries and that healthy relationship with yourself of, you know what I mean? No. Like, I can be selfish, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I've actually got a quote that is from The Virtue of Selfishness. She says, it's not man's immorality that is responsible for the collapse now threatening to destroy the civilized world, but the kind of moralities that men have been asked to practice, right? So there, there, there. [Speaker 2] (40:32 - 40:44) There's some other quote that's like, I can't think of right now that relates to that too. The road to hell is paved through- With good intentions. With good intentions. [Speaker 1] (40:45 - 40:52) But I mean, absolutely, because, oh, it doesn't matter what I did. It was from good intent, right? [Speaker 2] (40:53 - 41:21) I'm doing the right thing. I mean, and everyone, the consensus says that I'm doing the right thing. You know what I mean? So it's just, again, it goes back to this, like, repression or disconnection from the eigenwelt, getting swallowed up into the crowd, the herd mentality, the mitwelt. You know what I mean? Losing connection to nature, which I feel like on some level, even your body is part of that. Your body is part of nature. Man, it's a trip, dude. [Speaker 1] (41:22 - 41:43) Nah, definitely, man. And this is what she's saying. When morality is given to us by another, then that is what's truly responsible for the collapse and for the destruction that we see around us, right? Because ultimately, it's the collective unconscious. It's their morality. It's not your morality. [Speaker 2] (41:43 - 42:00) It's not- The morality of the superego, you know, the morality of that, that gets placed upon you. And it starts when you're young. Is it an interdirected morality or is it what the priest class, again, the teachers, your parents tell you? [Speaker 1] (42:00 - 42:05) Yeah, man. It's the emperors and it's the hierophants, right? [Speaker 2] (42:05 - 42:06) Do you want to talk about them a little? [Speaker 1] (42:07 - 42:58) Sure. So, I mean, simply put, the emperor is representative of the government, the authority, the king of the environment, the one whose will has to be done at all costs. And the hierophant is the authoritarian of the minds. It's the popehood. It's the priesthood. So between them both, they've got you, right? They've got you in the world and they've got you in your head. And until you can begin to question that and really, I guess, develop your own authority, your own sovereignty within yourself, one that isn't outsourced to these two forces, which want to control everything. Manya? [Speaker 2] (42:58 - 43:29) Yeah, man. And I think that's where it's so important to, you know, it makes me think of, I don't know why I just made me think of, but one of the first books I read was Siddhartha by Herman Hess. And it was just like, here is Siddhartha, had all the riches, had all these comforts. And he was like, well, no, I'm going to go find my own way. I'm going to live this path. I'm going to go out and see what's in the world and, you know, make mistakes and be poor and do this. And, you know what I mean? Like there's something that's, I think, important in that regard that, I don't know, for some reason that made me think of that. [Speaker 1] (43:29 - 43:44) No, definitely, man. I mean, that Siddhartha road is the authentic road, right? He's out there and he's discovering for himself. It's a crooked path. It's not the straight lines and the highways that have been built in our hearts and in our minds by these two. [Speaker 2] (43:46 - 43:52) Yeah, yeah. Do this. Go to that. Go A to B to C to D. Follow the rules. Oh, yeah. [Speaker 1] (43:52 - 43:56) And it'll be easy and you'll get there really, really, really, really quickly. [Speaker 2] (43:57 - 43:59) Here's a cookie. It's called you'll get to go to heaven. [Speaker 1] (43:59 - 44:11) Yeah. But don't look at the mountainside along the way, right? Don't see what's beyond these two walls on this straight road. There's, you know what I mean? It's just, here you go. It's done for you. [Speaker 2] (44:12 - 44:12) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (44:13 - 44:14) And I'm curious. [Speaker 2] (44:15 - 44:27) I'm curious, what are a couple like really big kind of turning point moments in your life, like specifically that really had an impact on you in getting to where you are today right now? [Speaker 1] (44:27 - 45:51) Yeah. I mean, I mentioned the first one already. It was definitely that initial shift in consciousness that took place during my first dark night of the soul. Like before that, I was like, I had so much angst, you know what I mean, continually felt like the world was against me, like nothing was really going my way until that shift took place. And I began to assess things in a different kind of way. And the second one was when that new age kind of false light consciousness went too far and I kind of lost myself in that. And you know what I mean? The shadow comes knocking, bro. And either you're going to bury it and you'll be given the opportunity to bury it, definitely. And you'll be given the opportunity to never have to face it. But that comes with obviously a cost. Or you go and you deal with it. You face it. You begin to put out those flames and you're going to burn yourself when you do those things. Definitely. But the freedom that ultimately can be attained by making that conscious and by bringing that forth, how could you make any other decision, right? [Speaker 2] (45:51 - 46:01) Yeah. I love hearing your story, man. I'm like, I want to keep asking you questions. Like what drew you towards the divinatory arts? [Speaker 1] (46:02 - 49:57) What drew me towards the divinatory arts? The first thing was I wanted to learn more about myself through astrology. So for a long time, I was looking for, you know what I mean? Because there's so much out there about astrology. And really, it is all confusing. It is all in a lot of mysteria. And the rational or logical man, I completely get why he's never going to be drawn towards it. Because there is a lot that doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense. The idea is that the planets have some kind of existential ruling force over our lives. It doesn't make sense. And it wasn't until I came across the esoteric tradition and the, I guess, the telescopic system, which views astrology as inward first, as esoteric, right? It deals with the fact that we are walking, living, breathing zodiacs, each of us as individual planets. And everything that we did out there in terms of the motifs and the shapes and the stories that we gave to the constellations and the world around us, they were the primordial projections of psyche, you know? So it's so important that people get this the right way around. Because if it's in the reverse position, and everything you do is dictated by what's happening on out there, where does your free will go? Where does your individuality go in that, right? So, yeah, man. Ultimately, my search for that led me to the esoteric traditions, to the telescopes mystery school. And he makes the connections between astrology, between tarot, between numerology. And it makes sense, simply put. It's simply and accurately, it makes sense. And that mystical journey and the understanding, the archetypes of the planets, of the tarot, of the numbers, that continued to open up within me that a deeper understanding of the underlying journey, the hero's journey, the imaginatory, the connecting fibers, which link the bits and pieces of our lives together in a sense. You know what I mean? It becomes wholeness as opposed to this happens to me, this happens to me, this happens to me, this happens to me, this is happening to me. That left brain compartmentalization. And through understanding the story of these 78 cards, through understanding how they came to be and what they represent and how they truly are that underlying story and journey for every single person, then, yeah, man, to me, that's the most fascinating thing in the world. And the reason I want to share that is simply put to give people back their sense of individuality in a world that's constantly trying to take it from them. Because let me tell you, man, these arts, they gave me the confirmation of who I always knew I was to be, right? Numerologically, I'm a seven. My personal numerological significator is specifically the seven of cups, cups being the emotional. And what does the seven of cups mean? This is literally what it means. It means imagination, it means poetry, it means literary gifts, it means creativity. And this is everything that I always did in my life. But to see this confirmed in this way, where it's like, how did that just happen? And it's like, yeah, man, that's the confirmation. This is where I'm going. This is who I am. This is what I'm doing. And I'm not looking back. [Speaker 2] (49:58 - 50:27) Yeah, I love it, man. And you gave me a little mini numerology, periscopic numerology reading on Instagram the other day talking about the 10 of swords, right? And it was spot on too. So I just think it's really, really cool. And I've said it all the time. I might have even said it last week, but these systems, they shine a light on things that very often we know about ourselves. But to get that affirmation just allows an individual to own it more, I think. [Speaker 1] (50:28 - 51:03) Yeah, man. I mean, how can the materialist have a leg to stand on? How can we deny the metaphysical aspect of reality when you have these arts that are proving this time and time and time again? And there's much that we don't know about the diplomatory systems. And that mystery, right? That little gap of the fact that it's not hardcore scientism. Yes, it's a science, but there is much to be explored about that. That mystery is still there. And how does it come to be that, you know what I mean? We can discover ourselves and have those confirmations through these arts. To me, there's nothing more fascinating. [Speaker 2] (51:04 - 51:13) Yeah, and part of walking the authentic path and seeking truth is being open to the mystery. [Speaker 3] (51:13 - 51:13) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (51:14 - 51:34) As opposed to like, yeah, I know what's up. I have it figured out. Or my one teacher said this, or this book, this one book said that. Like, no, I'm constantly humbled, constantly. Even though I can be self-righteous and be like, I know a lot of shit. Like at the end of the day, I understand like, there's so much I'm completely in the dark about. [Speaker 3] (51:34 - 51:34) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (51:34 - 51:40) And that wonder and that mystery, it does something to my spirit, to my being. [Speaker 1] (51:41 - 51:52) But you shift from becoming scared of the unknown, which is the state that most people are living in, to actually being open to the unknown and letting that mystery unfold for you personally. [Speaker 2] (51:52 - 52:05) What in the tarot represents what you just said? Is there anything that represents that? Like being open to the mystery or moving into the unknown? I'm curious, because I'm not super familiar with the tarot. And I'd love to learn more. [Speaker 1] (52:06 - 53:51) Yeah. So I'll do this in a basic, simple way. But the initial 22 cards of the major arcana just simply represents the sun's journey around the cryptical, right? In fact, there's 12 specific cards in the deck, which represent the 12 houses of the zodiac. So the sun reaches his peak in Leo in card 8 in strength. He gets to the top of the mountain in card 9 as the hermit. And then he realizes that, you know what I mean? This is as bright as I'm going to shine. I actually can't shine any brighter than this anymore. And my light is about to dim. It's about to wane. I'm about to enter the underworld, okay? So the sun at that point, he, I guess, exits the materialism, the extroversion, the obsession with society, with fame, with virtue, with what society has given to him. And he goes into a deeper journey, which is the underworld cycle, as he moves through then Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, and into the nadir of Capricorn. And as he comes out of that, of course, he's changed by that, right? Of course, he's changed by facing his shadow. And he has a greater sense of wholeness when he comes back on the other side of that as the universe, as judgment, as Aeon. And this is, right? It's all there. The hero's journey is there in these cards, which are tens of thousands of years old. [Speaker 2] (53:53 - 53:56) Yeah. I look forward to learning more. That's for sure. They're really cool. [Speaker 1] (53:57 - 53:57) Yeah, man. [Speaker 3] (53:59 - 53:59) All right. [Speaker 2] (54:01 - 54:05) Yeah. This is a good little talk, man. This is our second episode. [Speaker 1] (54:06 - 54:07) This is our second episode. [Speaker 2] (54:07 - 54:23) This is our second episode, a continuation of our first. I love it, man. I'm so excited to be here with you. I love having these conversations. We're going to have a guest on next week. Is that correct? [Speaker 1] (54:23 - 54:25) Yeah, we've got a guest booked in for next week. [Speaker 2] (54:25 - 54:45) Yeah, yeah. And we're working on bringing some other guests in the coming weeks as well. And we really, really care about the authentic journey. It's something that I think is so relevant, even more so today. And to connect with these people and to interview them and hear their stories and how it shows up in their work and their life is going to be really cool. [Speaker 1] (54:46 - 55:17) That's the thing, right? Because the guests that we get on, yeah, I definitely want to know about the story. I want to know about how they got to where they got to, the different wake-up calls that they had along the way and the different questions that they asked as life hit them. And as they will carve the way into where they are now into expressing more truthfully that deeper sense of self as opposed to the self that is given. So yeah, should we wrap it up there for now for episode two? [Speaker 2] (55:17 - 55:34) I think it's great for episode two, man. I was in a conversation. I loved your little summary of the hero's journey with the Tarot. And we're looking forward to seeing everyone next week when we got our first guest, our first official guest on Here for the Truth. [Speaker 1] (55:34 - 55:46) Sounds good. Thanks for watching, everyone. Pleasure to be here with you all. And yeah, we'll see you next week. Take care. See you guys. Nice. [Speaker 2] (55:47 - 55:48) This is the recording.