Michelle Dixon A Conversation on “Enlightenment”

[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 1:41) All right, everybody, welcome back to Here for the Truth. I'm Joel Raffiti, got my co-host Jerasmus with me as always. Today, we're joined by Michelle Dixon, who is a long-time listener of the podcast, and she listened to our episode last week or a couple weeks ago, The Contradiction of Non-Duality, where we kind of dived into some of the paradoxes in these non-dual teachings and especially the more extreme forms. And Michelle sent us an amazing email, firstly appreciating the episode, but also wanting to bring some balance to the conversation about how this philosophy, I guess, can be employed in perhaps a more grounded way. Michelle is an amazing human being and has been on an awesome journey, and we dive into a lot in this episode, including the impact of intergenerational trauma, how trauma is stored and released in the body, the limitations of talk therapy, what is a spiritual awakening and its integration into daily life, what is enlightenment, how do we balance the infinite and finite nature of this experience, spiritual bypassing, and so much more. I think you guys are going to get a lot of value out of this and really hope you enjoy it. Just a quick note, Rise Above The Herd, the door is now closed. The next round probably won't be until, I guess, maybe late in the first quarter next year sometime, but we'll let you know for sure. In the meantime, you can head to the Rise Above The Herd website still and join the wait list to be first notified when that becomes available again. Thanks for listening and please enjoy. [Speaker 3] (1:41 - 1:49) You are now listening to the Here For The Truth Podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 2] (1:51 - 2:22) All right, everyone, welcome back to Here For The Truth. We have Michelle Dixon with us. She's a somatic therapist, writer, and researcher based in Sydney. On her Substack publication, she explores frameworks for soul-centered trauma healing, navigating the line between healing from past wounding and spiritual awakening. In her practice, she works with complex trauma with clients all over the world using an eclectic range of modalities from the conventional to the shamanic. She also writes fiction. Michelle, welcome to Here For The Truth. [Speaker 1] (2:23 - 2:24) Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys. [Speaker 2] (2:24 - 2:33) No worries at all. Good to see you again. We worked together briefly a few years ago, I think with a tarot or astrology reading or something of the sort. [Speaker 1] (2:33 - 2:39) Yeah, it was a tarot scope. I had to look at it before the call actually to remind myself. Yeah, it was really cool. [Speaker 2] (2:39 - 2:57) Amazing. Amazing. Well, it's nice to see you here. I love how things kind of come full circle, for sure. I guess just to kick this off in the usual HFTT fashion, can you give us a bit of your personal hero's journey and I guess some of the major catalyzing transformative moments in your life that have led you down this path? [Speaker 1] (2:58 - 12:17) Yeah, sure. So, I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, actually. So, I've been in Australia for 25 years now. So, my accent's kind of like mid-Pacific, I guess. I don't know. It sounds American to me, but yes, I grew up in Atlanta and went to college in the States and studied international relations. Don't ask me why. I think I thought I was going to study something like anthropology. I was really good at languages and I wanted to travel the world and what do you know when you're 18, but it was way too heavy on politics for me. And I think it was the first kind of like awakening in the here for the truth kind of sense for me and that experience because I started to, you know, I had assignments and I'd go to the library and I'd read like history that wasn't on the news and discovered things, you know, that weren't talked about. And I was like, you know, are you serious? And then got into Noam Chomsky and, you know, that kind of set me up. And I was really interested in human rights and I minored in Russian language and literature and I was really interested in human rights abuses in the former Soviet states and, you know, what happened after the collapse of the Soviet Union. And so, because of my interest and I speak Russian, I learned it in college, I decided to go into a PhD into research in the area of human rights. And through a weird kind of series of coincidences, I met, it was actually a job I had after I did my undergraduate degree. I was hired to work as a translator for the day with this man called Mustafa Jumilev, who's the leader of the Crimean Tatar national movement. Now, the Crimean Tatars are a Muslim people from Crimea, which is Ukraine, of course, Russia's taken over Crimea years ago before the war. But they were deported during the Second World War by Stalin to Central Asia and like kind of overnight cattle cars, most of the population was decimated, it was fully a genocide. And during the Soviet era, they advocated for the right to return to their homeland. And they were really unique in that they did it like peacefully, non-violently. They used like the peaceful protest methods, I guess you could say. And I was really young and I was paired up with this like internationally renowned human rights activists that was kind of like getting awards right left and center. And I was super intimidated. He was very, very small. He was like even a lot shorter than me and I'm five foot four. So like, but he had this presence that was like massive. And I knew that he'd gone on the longest hunger strike in the history of the Soviet dissent movement. He spent like 25 years in like prisoner camps in Uzbekistan. And I was super intimidated, but like really fascinated. And I became really interested in the story. And so when I did my graduate work, I decided to study that nationalist movement. And I went and I lived in Ukraine, in Crimea. And I was living kind of in between two settlement camps, which are kind of like refugee camps. So after the fall of the Soviet Union, when these people returned to their homeland with the collapse, they didn't have, they weren't given passports. They didn't have the right to work there or live there. They squatted on their own ancestral homeland and they had nothing. And a lot of them were dying from blood diseases, which I wonder now what had to do with Chernobyl because it wasn't far. I don't know if the soil was, I don't know, but they were all, many of them were having, like they had blood, like they had leukemia. And there was a lot of just a lot of illness and they didn't have access to any kind of medical care. So people were just dying. And I was interviewing them about their political movement. But I was getting all of their personal stories of being refugees and intergenerational trauma and genocide. And I had absolutely no context for this. Like I was 26 years old and I just, I didn't, I'd never studied anything like psychology. I'd done some counseling in high school, but like I, I only, I only had this instinct to just greet it with presence and compassion. But it seemed to me that that was the real story somehow. So here I was interviewing all these leaders about their politics and their, their movement and how they created a shadow government. And it was super interesting, but also because I'm female, I would interview all the male leaders, but then every other moment, aside from the interviewing the male leaders, I was off with the women in the kitchen because that was just, you know, the natural place for me to be. So I was hearing all these family stories. And I remember one woman who was like, she had three sons and her husband had died of throat cancer and basically starved to death because there was no treatment, no pain relief. He just couldn't eat. And she was, just so like, she had this strength of character and I was really affected by it. And I think, so that was a real moment of change for me. I really questioned everything. And, and it just seemed to me that academia was kind of like beside the point, like, it's just seemed like that ivory tower of like, you know, how is this going to help people who are living in that situation? And like, how do people survive this level of trauma? Like, what is it about the human spirit? Like all the questions for me, why, why, why? And so when I finished the PhD, I just decided not to go into academia. And I decided to have my babies. I have three young adult kids at the moment, kidults. And I really wanted to be home with them. I became really annoyed at feminism, not like first wave feminism. Like, yeah, I think I should have the right to you know, own property. But this idea that like, I had to be like a man and have a corporate job, like just didn't sit well with me. I really wanted to be with my babies. And so I was, I was for a full time for a number of years. And then I went through a really hectic divorce. And it was kind of like that first adult crisis. So, and during that time, I was writing a lot. I wrote three novels that never got published. Like I was just dicked around by publishing. I literary agents, I had publishers who wanted me and then they changed their mind at the last minute. And it was like heartbreaking every time. But I kept writing, kept looking at my kids. And then the divorce hit and I was like, ground zero, you know, all of the skeletons came out of the closet, you know, everything I'd managed to not look at in my own personal life. It just came roaring out of me. I was completely out of control for years. And it was just like, you know, abusive relationships, like narcissistic people, all the trauma came up. And during that time, I was retraining to do somatic work. So because I knew after my experience researching that I really was interested in human suffering. I really wanted to understand like what, how that happens and had to start with me. You know, it's like the wounded healer, we all start with ourselves. So I did heaps of study around that. I did shamanic armoring. And then I wasn't satisfied with any of the explanations I was getting from my coaches, because it was this, in your SMS, you probably get it. It's this kind of culture a little bit like, oh, just feel it, like whatever happens, like just be with it, you know. But I was like, I wanted to understand like why, you know, like how does the body hold trauma? This was before, you know, the body keeps the score was like mainstream knowledge. That was about like 15 years ago now. It's like, how, how does like, how does trauma, how does it get stored in the body? And how is it released? Like, what's the mechanism? And so I just did a lot of study around that. I did my facial cranial sacral work. I landed in biodynamic cranial touch, which is part of the osteopathic tradition then. And it's kind of a non-dual approach to body work. And I, in every point in my journey, you know, I sort of was like, thinking, I'm going to get more knowledge, like Michelle wants knowledge, I'm going to learn how to do stuff. And then I rock up to a training, it would be like, this training is about just being present, you know. But through that presence, I learned a lot, you know, I think it was really the making of me because I had to trust my instincts and be with myself. And then I just expanded my training into more talk modalities. I wanted it to be fully comprehensive, you know. And even from body work was already doing a lot of sexual trauma. That was a lot of what I was seeing, what was presenting, and that just carried on into complex trauma. And I keep, I've over the years tried to like move out of it, but that just seems to be my, the thing that people see me for. And during all that, you know, I had my own spiritual practice and I was aware that there were things happening on another level. And that's become more clear to me, really, especially in the past two years. But yeah, that's kind of like the high level, yeah, hero's journey type stuff. [Speaker 2] (12:18 - 12:35) Yeah. I mean, it's a great story. I mean, you were able to explain it very succinctly. I mean, pretty amazing spending all that time, obviously, in Crimea and investigating and interacting with these people that have gone through things that, you know, are very different than maybe many of us have gone through in our lives for sure. [Speaker 1] (12:36 - 12:59) Well, certainly like you grew up, like I did in this like middle-class kind of lifestyle, you know, in America, you know, it's not something I had seen, I had any context for, like, you know, it was like, it was one of those brain breaking moments where you go, oh, like how I live isn't how everyone lives, you know, like that young adult moment of kind of going, wow, like, yeah. [Speaker 2] (13:00 - 13:00) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (13:00 - 13:01) Yeah. We're fake. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (13:02 - 13:24) Real quickly. I mean, I know we'll talk about a bunch of things today, but you had highlighted something about, you know, doing research on the fact that the body stores trauma and how does it store trauma and how does it release it? Can you like speak to that? Because there are people that go, there's no proof that the body stores trauma, you know, like, and how was it? Where is it? You know, and so I'm just curious, you know, your thoughts on that. [Speaker 1] (13:25 - 15:05) Yeah, that's a great question. I know you do this work as well, so you can chime in if you have your own way of understanding it. I've looked at it from a lot of different levels, but the way that I like to explain it to clients is just to really make it simple so people understand. It's the sense in which you have an emotional reaction to an event in your life and the emotional reaction causes a muscular constriction somewhere in the have resonance in different parts of the body, you know, like there's that study with that graph that shows people like from all different parts of the world, it doesn't matter their race, ethnicity, religion, culture they grew up in, people tend to experience, you know, grief in the chest or love in the heart or, you know, et cetera, or when they go into fear, you know, that contraction of your gut. And these are just responses that are probably humans have had for forever, right? But when there is an emotional impact, we do tend to clench the body. And if that impact is not, if you're not, it's not released, it's not worked, it's not processed. If you don't come into that nervous system regulation, that contraction causes what then people refer to as armoring. So it's like a, it's a contraction that's just there. And that's the best way that I know to describe it to people so that they really understand why, if I'm touching like a part of the body and there's pain and discomfort, and then there's emotion, and then there's memory, like why is that happening there can often trace it back to, or these things happen. And I was constantly in this sense of like contraction. [Speaker 3] (15:05 - 15:06) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (15:06 - 17:16) But also like, you know, there's other research around it. I think in terms of like the most recent thing is, well, it's not recent. I think in 2017 research came out that the interstitium is a thing. And the interstitium being these little sacks of like liquid in the fascia. So the fascia is like the, you know, the fascia of what people don't know, it's this like layer of muscle, we call it muscle or a top layer of tissue that covers your whole body that's, I liken it to like, if you have a hanger in the closet and you have a dress on it, like the dress is like the fascia that covers your whole body. And so if you were to scrunch up, you know, the dress, it would affect how that dress falls everywhere, you know, and that's the same thing with the fascia. If you have contraction effects everywhere, but with the discovery, the discovery around the interstitium is that, yeah, they're these little, like these little pockets of liquid and they get trapped and isolated from other liquid parts in the fascia because of the contraction, because of the emotional reaction, the trauma. And then there's a sense in which there's this cellular material, which is trauma, which is held in that. And what's interesting about that is that even before this officially came out as, yeah, this is a thing, it's amazing. There's this liquid material in the body. When I was learning by dynamic cranial touch, the whole premise of that modality is that the, is that when you do this non-dual, like in contact with someone and they soften and they relax, the body becomes first liquid, and then it becomes more of an air kind of medium. So we were learning that the body has this liquid capacity and that if you're present with someone with this contact, there'll be this increased flow, which is healing, you know? And the idea is actually that those little isolated pockets in the interstitium would start to open up and then there'd be a flow and the flow is the healing and that releasing of trauma. But yeah, is that your experience to your SMOS? Like how would you describe it? [Speaker 2] (17:17 - 18:10) Well, yeah. I mean, there's probably more like scientific, neuroscientific ways of talking about as well. It's not really my MO. I mean, I tend to go from the experiential lens, which, you know, just receiving and giving so much bodywork. I mean, the proof is in the pudding in the sense, like you're working on someone, you're engaging with them, you're walking on them or doing whatever kind of work in a place where the person maybe feels safe working with you. And like emotions and shaking and all this stuff comes through, like that's the proof. Like for me, that's the proof. Like if you're just walking around, okay, maybe something could come up, someone's viscerally like touching you and working with you. And then you're like in fetal position, weeping and heaving with snot coming out of your nose. Like what is what? Like, I mean, it seems like something's being released and moved in the body. [Speaker 1] (18:10 - 19:36) Yeah, totally. Totally. And I mean, like I think these explanations are really great for clients so that some people more than others really want to understand why they're really thirsting. And I do my best. But as you say, like the experience is the main thing. Like if you come in in pain and something's released and then eventually you feel better and you recognize that catharsis, like isn't that speaking for itself? And by the way, I think that that is one of the revolutions we're seeing in the healing space is this prioritizing of experience over needing to explain and categorize and that's come from, I think that's come from the psychedelic resurgence of psychedelic kind of treatment models is that we're going, hey, hang on, there's an experiential dimension and it matters. Like people's experience, we can't quantify it, we can't map it. People are having these experiences and they're creating change. And at some point, I think, this is something I'm really curious about as well, but I think that it all comes from psychedelics, this idea that we're finally starting to really take seriously the experience of things without needing proof. And that shades into the awakening experience, Kundalini experience, because that's also something that we might not be able to prove with science and yet it is happening. So, thank God, we're starting to take this more seriously. [Speaker 2] (19:37 - 20:52) Well, yeah. And even just bringing more of a focus on the body and sensation. I mean, some of my training is based on Peter Levine's work, somatic experiencing. I mean, literally somatic experiencing, experiencing in the body and having and building an awareness of sensation and what is happening. It's true, we can talk about things all the time. I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm anxious. Okay, well, what's going on inside of you? Where is it? What do you notice? And then two minutes later, well, what are you noticing now? Do we bring that level of self-awareness to a deeper level or is it just we're just sitting there like talking heads, just talking about stuff? And I've worked with tons of clients where they have this experience and like sometimes some people have more somatic awareness where they're like, okay, I'm feeling a little sweaty in my right armpit and then I feel tingling sensation. And then some people are just like, I don't know, I kind of feel the same, you know, like, and it's just, again, it's different for certain people, but like, how do we build more sensitivity to that? Which I think it's nice to know that people are moving beyond just talk therapy, you know, and I say just, I mean, there's obviously benefits to it, but it's not the whole picture. And especially when you're dealing with pre-verbal trauma and things that were happening pre-language. [Speaker 1] (20:53 - 21:31) Oh, totally. And a lot of treatments really do those people a huge disservice, like huge disservice. I've been to a rehab facility and I've done some training in that and I walked away feeling like really a little bit like I was shocked and upset in a way because I could see that the whole model was built on, we need to talk about what went wrong. What about all those people, as you say, who had pre-verbal trauma, they had abandonment as infants, they don't have memory, you know, how can they talk about it? You know, then they kind of end up being pathologized and not understood and not served by these models. So, yeah. [Speaker 2] (21:33 - 22:13) And it further perpetuates the, like, even in the individual, like, well, nothing's going to help me. Nothing can help me. I've tried that and it's like, well, there are things that are evolving and there's new developments and new understandings of the body of neuroscience of what's really happening. And so, I am happy that people are becoming a little bit more integrated in that regards. Real quickly, just because you said it earlier, I want to get some clarification. What is non-dual contact? Like, to me, I almost feel like that's, like, I'm confused because you contact like one person touching the other. And so, what's non-dual about that? Yeah, please. [Speaker 1] (22:14 - 23:22) What's non-dual about the modality is that you are supposed to be centered in your own, what they say, midline. So, like this midline of your body centered in, and actually Judith Blackwell, Blackstone, Blackwell, I always confuse it. He does the realization process, has a similar thing of there's this inner kind of midline part of you, but you're supposed to be centered in that as you're kind of like your soul or your wholeness. And you're making contact with the person physically, like you are touching them, but you're in a space of wholeness. And yeah, I think it's just semantics, really. It's just, I'm referring to it as non-dual contact. There isn't anything specifically about that that's non-dual. But the practice is non-dual in that you're not engaging with the person's individuality or personhood. You're not doing anything directive. You're just being in your own wholeness and letting your wholeness make contact with their wholeness and healing kind of happens through that space. [Speaker 2] (23:23 - 23:27) And that's something that you're seeing results with regularly or? [Speaker 1] (23:28 - 25:02) That's a great question. You're like, how does this work? You know, it takes a really specific kind of client who enjoys that. I use it more as a way to end a bodywork session where I do a holding point and I go into meditation. But really I'd say, okay, maybe 10% of how I use it is at the end of the session and 90% is in my own inner disposition. So what I really got out of that training is this ability to drop in deep in my own center and not have projections or opinions or ways I think that the session has to go and just being deeply attuned to that thing of therapeutic presence. So like I did over seven years, like lots of training and it was always like being at a passionate retreat really. Like you spend five days a week for hours a day just in a really meditative state. And what you notice from the training is you start to have like really big shifts of consciousness and it changes your relationship to yourself, to everything. I've had completely depersonalized experiences where I feel like I'm actually everyone in the room. Like I recognize that, not just like an idea, but this like body felt experience of, wow, Flora, I am actually everyone in this room. And what that does over time, like that practice is, yeah, it just gives you that grounding and that centering. So when I'm with a client, whether we're talking or doing bodywork, I'm able to drop into my core and just kind of be more my soul and less Michelle with her life and her opinions and all of that. But the actual practice is like, just like simple contacts, but with this disposition. [Speaker 2] (25:03 - 25:21) I mean, I personally see how that can be beneficial, you know, coming from a, I guess, detached, less judgmental place, being censored within oneself. And very often some people just need that to feel that presence or that mirror. So yeah, I'm not discounting that in that society. [Speaker 1] (25:22 - 26:24) Some people really like it. Like if I'm, it just depends on like, as Eurysmos was saying, like, how much is a person kind of in touch with their own somatic dimension of experience? Like if they're not, and they, if they're the person where, if you said to them, like, where do you feel the sadness? And they're like, yeah, well, I don't know. What do you mean? Like that kind of person isn't going to like this because they want to have stuff done to them. They're going to be like, what are you doing? Like, I need to be, I need to have like a process. Like you're, what is this holding my, you know, putting your hand on my stomach for 30 minutes? Like what the hell is that? Right. But for other people, like if that, that contact, they feel like tremendous amount, like it's crazy. Like I could sit there and in myself and they'll be like, wow. And then, and then I felt this and then I had this memory and it's like far out, you know? It can be really reassuring. So I just, it's one of those things, like I feel into it, like with the client. And it's usually, as I say, something I do at the very end, just kind of like, yeah. To always like, I don't know, conclude the session in a lovely way. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (26:25 - 27:12) Yeah. Awesome. Cool. All right. So I guess a week or two ago, we recorded an episode called the contradiction of non-duality where we kind of addressed some of the extremism and dogma around the non-dual philosophy and ideologies. And you sent us a lengthy, awesome email, um, you know, on, on, on that topic, which we both really appreciated. So I'd love to dive into, uh, your perspectives on, I guess, how one, you know, can come to appreciate, uh, non, non-duality, a philosophy of non-duality and still, you know, remain grounded in terms of understanding trauma and semantics, um, and the nuances of everyday reality, which some of the extreme versions tends to ignore. [Speaker 1] (27:14 - 27:16) Yeah. That's a really big question. [Speaker 2] (27:18 - 27:22) And so all of it now, every single aspect. [Speaker 1] (27:23 - 27:28) No pressure. Uh, where do I even begin? Where do I even begin? [Speaker 2] (27:28 - 27:55) Well, I guess, how do you define non-duality like you, because, you know, non-duality, um, it has come from different transit, uh, sorry, traditions and, and, and, and is viewed maybe differently. So I'm curious, like, what is your view of it? What it isn't or what it is? And, uh, what are the ways in which, like, it's beneficial and applicable to you in, in, in everyday life, I guess, as well. [Speaker 1] (27:56 - 32:34) Yeah, I guess, I guess I'll just riff on it. Right. Cause like, it's such a huge topic, like you can come at it from so many different angles. I mean, you know, it's a tradition that exists, you know, in many religions of the world over time and space, this idea of a shared reality that we are all part of the same fabric of reality. So I'll start there and we can take, you know, we can go to science and physics and say, okay, everything is like, when you break it down, we're all just atoms floating around in space, but there is an aspect of our reality, which is, which is shared, which is unified. Like we are obviously all part of the same fabric of reality. And, um, you know, in a spiritual context that's taken into this domain of, you know, in enlightenment, which is at some point in your evolution, you will like be less of your individual atomized identity with all of your complexes or whatever. And you'll come into a more of a, of a embodied realization that actually we're all one. How that happens specifically really depends so much on the specific tradition and the culture in which it's embedded, you know, and that's, that's a point I really want to make as well is that, you know, if we're talking about, um, well, let's talk about realization for a moment. Like, what is this idea of like spiritual awakening? You know, there's so much out there, you know, in like the public space around it. I, you know, there's a lot of, you know, everyone's saying, oh, like we're having this mass awakening 5D, whatever. And I resisted that for a long time because, well, just generally, like as a personality, if, if everyone's talking about it, I question it. Like, yeah, I'm just like, like, how do you know? What does that mean? But, um, but I think what I'll say about realization or awakening is this, this sense in which you realize that you're not just a human, that there's an aspect of you, which is eternal, which is consciousness, which doesn't, wasn't born and will never die, which exists before the body, during and after. And, you know, the realization or the awakening is around somehow integrating that experience into your life, you know, and there's so many different gradations of that. There are different ways, like different stages, like there's so much there, but just as a general kind of definition, and I will say that's how I understand it. It's just this experience of understanding that. And with spiritual realization, you know, I think we can all agree that there are a million different ways. If we call that the mountain, there are a million different paths up to the top of the mountain, right? Like, and there isn't a right or wrong way. Like it's the destination that matters. The journey can be different for everyone. And, you know, the non-dual, non-duality is, you know, one of those ways, and it's different permutations, like, you know, like there's the different traditions, Buddhism, Advaita, and everything. But it's, they, those traditions, that non-duality, they have come from a time and a place and a culture and a history. And so, certain paths make sense in certain cultural historical contexts and not in others. And I think the danger and what we're seeing is taking that experience from a specific path, like this kind of like no-self path, where it originated probably in what's currently India and plunking it in the West, where we have a culture of individuality and individuation, and that's not how we understand, you know, the evolution of the human being. So, the danger is taking something that was meant to happen in a particular context and trying to universalize and apply it to everyone in the present. So, how I think it relates to me is, in my work, in my life is just the sense of, I am always both. I am always Michelle, and I'm very much an ego, and I'm an individual, and I live my life, and my mission is to be authentic, to be the best Michelle I can be in my lifetime. And also, I'm aware that there's a part of me that transcends that. And having those two parts of me come into coherence, where they're, like, let's say, working together, supporting each other, is my goal and my mission. And that's kind of how I work with clients as well, if the conversation's on the table, which it isn't always, like, you know, I'm not gonna force it if it's not already there. Maybe you can ask me a question now, does that make sense? [Speaker 2] (32:35 - 32:59) Yeah, yeah, it does make sense. I guess I'm curious too, you can share your personal experience, but just in general, like, the non-dual state, like, is it, what's the felt experience from your standpoint versus, I feel like many people can get caught up in, like, the intellectual, conceptual understanding and use that as a way of bypassing other aspects of being human? [Speaker 1] (33:00 - 34:34) Yeah, yeah. I think this is the danger you're speaking to is the danger of kind of over-prioritizing phenomenology. Phenomenology being shit that happens, right? Like, altered states of consciousness, like, somehow equating an altered state of consciousness with, like, a particular kind of evolution, like, you're so advanced because, like, you had this non-dual experience. I mean, you can have, I've had, like, I shared with you earlier, like, in one of my bodywork courses, I definitely had the experience of, I felt like I was everyone in the room and they were me, you know? That lasted, you know, maybe an hour, it passed. It was a consciousness state, much as you would have if you, you know, were to, you know, do some kind of psychedelics, right? That is an experience. That's not, and some people who are, you know, like, non-dualist would, they believe that that state is what they want to be in all the time, but that's just a consciousness state. That's not what it is to be human. That's not the ultimate reality that we're all aiming for. It's just a state of consciousness. And so, for me, I've had these experiences, but the way that I feel, like, I guess maybe what you're asking is, like, what is the integrated, like, day-to-day experience? And that is just having an awareness all the time of being both. And it can be uncomfortable because you're infinite and you're finite. [Speaker 2] (34:36 - 34:49) I align with you. Everything you're saying, that's how I live my life. I agree. There's a part of me that's Joel that lives everyday life and I have a deeper knowing and understanding that there's a part of me that's infinite and eternal. But isn't that a duality in itself, the infinite and the finite? [Speaker 1] (34:51 - 35:24) Of course, of course, it is. Yeah, of course, it is a duality. And I think this is what I call, like, a levels confusion, right? And this is one of the biggest problems I have with, like, the pop culture version of non-duality is that, yeah, you know, at a level, everything is one, but that's not the level my consciousness is focused on at the moment. Like, you think of a radio dial, the dial is dialed into, I'm Michelle living my life, you know, and all the other frequencies are there and the atmosphere, but I'm not dialed into them. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (35:24 - 35:54) Yeah. I think it's just, it's becoming more of a semantics issue because how does anyone know that there's only a level where everything is always one and nothing else? But the moment that something else is there, you know, it's no longer non-duality. So, I don't know if it's just a language issue or what, but is there ever a place in existence where every single person is just the everything, the one, and there's nothing else. But the moment there's nothing else, for me, it's like, how can we use this language of non-duality? [Speaker 1] (35:55 - 36:54) I think what you're pointing to, I mean, this is really interesting, like, as you're speaking, I'm realizing, okay, like, part of the problem is that we, I don't think that our brains are naturally wired to experience the oneness of everything, like, our brains are wired to, you know, I don't know how, I think Brendan Murthy, what did he say in his interview? Like, it's, I don't know, like the brain is like a receiver, right? Like, yes, everything is connected and we are all atoms. And when people have consciousness, when they have that phenomenology experience, when they have a consciousness shift, you know, it's like, I think Ken Wilber calls it like the state change versus the stage change. You can have a state change, but that doesn't mean that you've changed the stage of your evolutionary development from, you know, enlightened to, from non-enlightened to enlightened. It's just, you know, that, and I don't, so yeah, I feel like I'm, does that make sense? [Speaker 2] (36:55 - 37:45) Yeah, I hear what you're saying there, you know, I mean, again, I think, like Joel said, it comes down to some semantics. Your personal philosophy, I agree with and align with, I think it's just the description of it. And then people take this descriptor and they kind of use it to negate reality and to negate the kind of everyday aspects. And they try to think that, oh, this infinite space is the real space and this experience is the not real space. And so there's less value and less care and less attention that's given to this space that now in their minds, they think is not real, you know. And what bothers me is when we negate the finite, when we negate what's happening now, because this certainly feels like the most tangible part of my experience. [Speaker 1] (37:45 - 41:35) Of course. And it is. And that's why I say it's a levels confusion. Like we are living at this level of reality. And so this is our reality. This is real. This is our mission. This is what we're here for. Sure, there are other dimensions and levels that exist or coexist, but that's not the mission. That's not why we're here. That's not the experience. And I mean, for me, it's bypassing, but it's also a trauma response. You know, I think that this way of looking at it is really comfortable for people who don't want to be in their bodies, because they don't want to deal with the trauma that's there. They don't want to deal with their own patterning and their conditioning. They're not happy with their egos. They're not happy with, you know, the ways that they're, they have reactivity, for example. So it's easy to abstract to the higher level of reality. Is it there? Absolutely, it's there. I have the experience it's there, but that's not how to live a happy and integrated life. And I don't think that any, I don't think that any non-dual tradition is actually advocating. You know, I think that's a misinterpretation of the intent behind it, which is that, you know, as a human spiritual person, you are starting to release layers of your conditioning, which is what in every tradition enlightenment is about, right? You're releasing and stopping identifying with these layers of conditioning to realize the realization that you are the infinite experience of you. And in all of these traditions, whether it's Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, there is a descent. There is a sense in which you realize that there's this interconnection, and then you descend into the body to live as your most authentic self. And this is the part that I think doesn't get talked about. And again, that's why I think it's the trauma response, because this is so important. You know, anyone who has genuinely had a realization will say there's this sense of opening, followed by the sense that now that I've kind of like let go of some of my conditioning, I can be the most authentic version of myself. I mean, even Adyashanti, who's probably America's like one of the most famous Buddhist teachers, when he describes his awakening, it was like there's an ascent and a realization at this level of consciousness, followed by the sense that I'm fully back in my body and living in an authentic way that I haven't experienced before. And that has also been my experience with my, you know, I hate to call it awakening processes. I feel like the term is so hackneyed. It's like kind of like uncomfortable for me, but whatever it was, we'll just call it that. Like for me, that was my experience. I had at a certain point, and there's like a whole long story, which is too much, but I had a certain point in experience of a dropping in my body, which for me, if I were to try to understand it, and this is why I think, you know, as Erasmus was saying, we have to look at the experience and prioritize that because I don't know that there's ever going to be an explanation science behind it. But my experience is like something dropping into my body, which I want to say is like my soul, my essential nature, not that it wasn't there, but it was like it had more space because I'd done some work and had more space. And then it was like I woke up and reality was really different for me. I have felt more permission to be myself, more myself than I've ever been. You know, the choices I made seem to be more in alignment. I realized how previous choices had been, you know, had come from wounding, come from, you know, messages from out there. But with this shift, suddenly I was like, wow, like more Michelle than I've ever been, you know, more authentic. [Speaker 2] (41:36 - 43:33) I mean, I definitely agree with that. I mean, my personal experience, sure, early on, you know, my personal development process was much more maybe psycho-spiritual, but when I really got into the physical body and deep body work, like it brought me to a a different place of understanding who I was and even how I perceived my environment and how I took in, how I responded to stimuli, like everything kind of shifted and changed for me. And I actually think that doing this kind of work, let's say trauma work, body work, et cetera, you know, releasing stuck and stored emotions, that allows me to connect more to this so-called non-dual state or this place of interconnectedness. So, that's why I think sometimes where some people will go, well, you don't need to do any of that. You just need to realize the truth, the supreme truth of you're not a separate person, that you are infinite and eternal and we're all one. And maybe people have those experiences like, you know, you brought up Ken Wilber before, I know Ken Wilber talks about like his, you know, approach to or his framework, like waking up, cleaning up, growing up and showing up. And I think Mark Gover talked about that in our first podcast with him. And it's like, sure, like you could just be kind of a normal person doing your thing. And then maybe you do a meditation or you're on the top of the mountain and you have this experience of like dissolving into the oneness. Cool. And some people get addicted to that or they think that's the thing. Can I chime in quickly? Like the reason that through trauma work, poetic work, somatic work, I feel that you feel more connected to the infinite ultimately is because you're more balanced between the poles, right? We become more centered within our own being. So, it's even through a dualistic process itself of coming to greater balance within ourselves that we're connected to this greater soul infinite space. [Speaker 1] (43:33 - 44:28) Yeah. Yeah. I think the languaging does get in the way, like the more that I think about it, we not dualism, dualism, like what are the two? As humans, we have a subject-object experience and that's the duality, right? I'm here and you're there and we're in a dynamic. And yes, what you're saying, you're asking us about people get addicted to the state. Absolutely. And that's the dark side of spending all your time going to more and more ayahuasca ceremonies or doing other kinds of stuff. It is very enticing, right? To be in a state where you feel connected to everything in love is wonderful, but that's not why you're incarnated in a body in this lifetime. It's not ultimately what non-dualism is about. [Speaker 2] (44:28 - 44:47) But I think I mentioned in my email- The problem is that people have the experiences, then they think they're God, then they say, this is all you have to do, right? As opposed to coming back to reality and then sharing the whole integrated experience after the fact. [Speaker 1] (44:48 - 47:04) And that is how you have gurus who are manipulative and toxic and really, really, hurt very vulnerable people. People who have their own trauma backgrounds who are looking for a paternalistic often figure to give them truth, to help them come back into consciousness is almost a metaphor for coming back into the womb of mother where you're surrounded and held and loved. And there is that impulse in a lot of people and that's not my story, but there are gurus who have a real kind of talent for going into those altered states and even a real capacity for transmission. And this is where it gets really, really odd. I know people who have gone or been part of cults or they follow gurus who are able to, with one touch, send them into a non-dual state, send them into a state where they have the experience of being one with everything and held in love and like the light is, and it's just amazing for them. And so naturally they go, wow, this person can do this for me. They must be like God and I'm in the right place and this is my mission. But the thing is that even those gurus who could do that, that doesn't mean that they've sorted their shit out. Their house might not be in order. And that's why in the email I mentioned this great biography of Jumpo Rishi, Dennis Kelly, who was a Buddhist teacher in the States. And the guy who wrote the biography, I'm so bad with names sometimes guys, but he's the guy who has the podcast Buddhist Buddha at the Gas Pump. It's a really great biography, Jumpo Rishi, Dennis Kelly. Anyway, he was kind of a drug dealer really in the seventies. He managed this massive ring out of California and mostly psychedelics and was on the run for the law. But he had this, he had a really intense trauma background, but he also had this really weird capacity for transmission. He could go into altered states. He could transmit that to other people. And this is really a thing. Some people, it's just like some people. [Speaker 2] (47:04 - 47:14) I wonder how much of the experience has to do with the other person's desperation to be saved and to be taken to this, you know, touched and then, oh. [Speaker 1] (47:15 - 48:59) Yeah. I mean, I think there is an element of that for sure. There's definitely an element of that, that they're more susceptible or more open to it. But I also think aside from that, there is enough information out there to show that some people just, they do just have this ability. And I think their path in life is coming into moral alignment with it. Like if I were to, you know, play God for a moment and go like, what is the karmic contract here? It would be like, okay, you're going to be born with these amazing capabilities to really be a good spiritual teacher, but the temptation is going to be power, you know? And how are you going to manage that? And unfortunately, often it's not managed well and they haven't done their growing up work. And we did this guy I'm speaking about, Jimbo, he had a realization when he suddenly looked around him, he was a spiritual teacher. He had all these followers and he'd had this extramarital affair with someone who was a student and he ended up in kind of like a 12-step program. And here he is going to this 12-step program and everyone's going like, I'm overcoming this addiction. And he's like, oh, I'm a Buddhist teacher and a spiritual teacher and I need to sort this shit out. Like I'm behaving in a way that's working me. And he realized like, I haven't done that trauma work. I haven't done that integration work, whatever you want to call it, depends on the tradition, right? Integration, whatever. And once he did that, he was really a changed person and he really introduced that into a lot of the Buddhist communities in the States. This idea that you need to do your spiritual work alongside the trauma work. And I think that's the direction we're moving in. And yeah, not everyone's on the same train, but I think that is the direction we're moving in. [Speaker 2] (48:59 - 49:31) Yeah, I mean, I would agree. And I'd be so curious, you know, people talk about all these masters and enlightened masters from the past. Like, were they? You know, like, how do we know? Because they sat at the top of a hill and they wore the dresses and they were intelligent and or they wore the outfits, they were intelligent and they were able to bestow some knowledge on them. But like, we don't know what's going on in their body and their physiology and behind closed doors. And so, like, I don't know. I just feel like there's a lot of propping people up and not realizing you're still human. Like you're still human on, there's certain