Joel & Yerasimos The Contradiction of Non-Duality

[Speaker 1] (0:00 - 2:17) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth Podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Here for the Truth Podcast. I'm Joel Rafiti. I've got my co-host Yerasimos with me as always. And today, we're going to be diving into nonduality, nondualism, taking a critical look at the idea, a critical look at the outcomes and the fruit of the idea, which is essential in studying any philosophy or any idea, and basically offering our perspective on whether this is something which leads to more wholeness, more integration, deeper connection with self, more fulfillment on a general basis or not. Before we dive into, I guess, and start fleshing this out, I just want to highlight that our 10-week group coaching program for you to really unleash your power, step into unapologetic authenticity, rise above the herd. Enrollment is now open. It has been open and it will be open until October 15th. And we're taking 12 students only for this next 10-week adventure. So if that appeals to you, you can learn more at riseabovetheherd.co. And if you're down to spend 10 weeks with us getting real, then please submit an application. Okay, so I guess to begin any discourse on this subject, it's important to outline and begin to define some of the principles of nonduality. And I guess, again, just before we get into that, this is an ancient idea, an ancient mode of thoughts, if the nondualist would even accept that language in terms of it being an idea or something worth thinking about. But it's come forth in many emanations, in different ways, in new age teachings. This is something espoused through teachers like Eckhart Tolle, the very popular Course in Miracles. [Speaker 2] (2:18 - 3:08) Also too, I just want to highlight too, in addition to what Joel said, when we think about the roots of nonduality, a lot of this stuff kind of runs really deep across a variety and diversity of spiritual and philosophical traditions. So they may use different terms, different metaphors, but at the end of the day, they honor certain foundational principles. I think one that's become really popular and that has, I would say, yeah, become more popular and encroached on the West more is the Hindu Advaita Vedanta. And even more so, I would say a more simplified view of that, which would be considered Neo-Advaita. So these are things that we're going to touch upon as well moving forward, but we'll get into some foundational principles of nonduality. [Speaker 1] (3:09 - 4:30) Yeah. So some of the defining principles of nonduality. So oneness of reality. So basically, all distinctions and separations such as self and other are illusions and everything is ultimately one unified reality. The illusory nature of duality. So dualities like good and evil, subject and object, mind and matter, male, female, I guess. These are all mental constructs, not fundamental truths of existence. Thirdly, the transcendence of ego. So the sense of a separate individual self or ego. So you existing as an individual separate self is an illusion and an authentic awakening involves seeing beyond this identification of you as a separate self. Direct experience over concept. So the understanding of nonduality comes through direct experience, not intellectual analysis or conceptual thoughts. There is actually a rejection of thinking inherence in this idea, which we'll get into later. And interconnectedness. So everything's interconnected and the perception of separateness is a limitation of the mind. So I guess just to begin, what of that can ask the smell test or is agreeable, I guess, to you? [Speaker 2] (4:31 - 4:44) CB Yeah. In terms of the foundational principles of nonduality, I think for me, when I think about consciousness as being the ground of all being from a metaphysical standpoint, that's something that I can align with. [Speaker 3] (4:45 - 5:10) There are analogies that are put forth very often, like the wave and the ocean, the world pool and the river being made up of the same stuff, which lands for me, but it feels a little overly simplistic to not honor and appreciate and accept the individualized nature as well. Seems, again, a little dogmatic in that regards. [Speaker 1] (5:11 - 6:09) Yeah, I agree. And I think this is actually the linchpin is that, you know, I agree that consciousness is the ground of reality, is the ground of being. And I think there's an awareness of that that arises if someone takes a more, quote unquote, spiritual path or goes through some kind of, again, quote unquote, awakening process. I think what happens is that that realization can be taken to an extreme and applied to everyday life in a way that is not useful. So, ultimately, what they're saying is that all matter, all different emanations that we're seeing around us, other human beings, my computer screen, the camera, the table, et cetera, if broken down to original form, we're going to get consciousness. [Speaker 2] (6:11 - 6:30) Yeah. And again, even if that is true, let's just assume that it sure seems like I'm an individual, that I am the subject of my own life, that all these things around me are real. And so, that's something that needs to be acknowledged. [Speaker 3] (6:30 - 6:45) And I think what we're talking about here is this idea of relative reality versus absolute reality. Whereas I think a non-dualist, and especially the ones that I practice a more extreme form of it, they don't honor that at all. [Speaker 2] (6:46 - 7:12) And there's many inherent contradictions in that, which we'll definitely delve into. But I think it's important to really explore what even draws people to these kinds of philosophies, that where you want to renounce oneself and the world of things and consider everything that you see as an illusion, including yourself as a person. [Speaker 1] (7:13 - 9:07) Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think one common thing in people really being, I guess, magnetized to this idea, which we're going to extrapolate in greater detail, is that if you listen to the stories, it's a human being who was in the deep, extreme suffering, and then they were relieved from that suffering. And this was the case for me as well in my personal history. In 2015, I had what some might coin a mystical experience. But ultimately, that led me to teachings like Eckhart Tolle and The Power of Now. And I went through a process of renouncing the mind, of renouncing thinking, of renouncing the past, of renouncing the future, and I received a lot of release. It was actually, it can be described as an experience of bliss in certain ways. Now, my perception of the experience looking back has changed over time. And ultimately, holding onto that philosophy as the primary driver of my actions and behavior in my life did not lead me to better results, did not lead me to further integration, further wholeness. I actually ended up casting a huge dump heap for myself in terms of the reality that I was avoiding, which I had to grapple with, which I think really then led me to what was more of an authentic milestone on my awakening journey, which really involved dealing with my shadow and my shit. Okay, so let's get into this. Why are people attracted to this idea? What are the psychological conditions that lead people to being drawn to this? [Speaker 2] (9:08 - 10:03) I think you hit the nail on the head initially, is having no framework to navigate or deal with suffering or having so much suffering that you don't want to deal with it, that you want relief from it. So if you can take all this stuff and throw it in the shadow and then just adopt a certain philosophical principle or a concept and have it act as the main driver of your psyche, I mean, like you said, there can be some peace there for a bit, but at some point, you're gonna have to deal with shit that's bubbling up from the unconscious, in my opinion. But I would say that's one of the reasons. It's like, I don't want to deal with suffering, almost in the sense of this regression back to a womb-like state, and I want to live in so-called peace. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (10:05 - 11:27) Yeah. A big connection, in addition to that, that I see is that I feel most people that are drawn to really clinging to this idea grapple with some form of inferiority complex. And so, non-neutrality ultimately teaches that there is no separate self and that the distinctions between people, experiences, and achievements ultimately are illusory. So obviously, for someone grappling with an inferiority complex, this can be incredibly appealing because it offers a way to escape that constant comparison and judgment that they feel towards themselves and others. It's no longer necessary to believe one as lesser, as unworthy, or as incapable of success because now achievement, success, moving forward in one's life, going on adventure, growing as a human being, all that becomes not necessary and becomes illusory. And so, this idea offers us a direct handout to ultimately disengage from painful comparisons, right? If there is no self to feel inferior, theoretically, there's no need to continue feeling lesser than others. So, I would definitely throw that in the mix. [Speaker 2] (11:27 - 12:15) Yeah, but while you're talking, it just made me think of, I think our audience knows that we've had multiple episodes on germaneumedicine on this show. And from a germaneumedicine standpoint, when you're dealing with a lot of self-devaluation, that can really impact the muscles, the joints, the connective tissue, etc. And I have met, I would say, a bunch of individuals in my life that would consider themselves non-dualists. And on multiple occasions, they've dealt with serious issues to their joints, whether it's their knees or they've had a hip replacement or something like that. So, I think it's just interesting to consider and to contemplate that as well. [Speaker 1] (12:15 - 13:34) Yeah, definitely. Interesting correlation. No doubt about that. So, why else are people attracted to this idea? So, another point I think that needs to be raised is that non-dualism espouses not thinking. Ultimately, it says thinking is the enemy. This is obvious to anyone that's read Power of Now, Eckhart Tolle. Stillness is the path through everything. The more that we can just be the observer of our thoughts and not engage with our thoughts, then that is the silver path through everything. So, again, wow. You're telling me I don't need to think anymore. And that's the highest path that I can take. That's the best thing that I can do. Well, this makes a lot of sense, right? Because again, it relieves one of the need to think, of the need to negotiate reality, of the need to deal with everyday life, everyday circumstances, deal with pain, deal with grief, deal with a lack that we experience on any level, whether it's vocational or relationship-wise or other. [Speaker 2] (13:35 - 14:12) Well, even, you know, listen, I also do want to say like, sure, the mind has its issues at times. There's conditioning that plays into it. But again, it's like you have to navigate, you have to grapple with that, you have to have a deep, deep self-inquiry practice. I'm not saying that there aren't self-inquiry elements to certain forms of non-duality, but I mean, are you really engaging the mind in a way that's allowing you to know yourself on a deeper level? And how does that serve you in your day-to-day life? But again, day-to-day life, if that's all an illusion, then what is this all for at the end of the day? [Speaker 1] (14:13 - 15:19) Yeah. And how often do we see the flip, right? We see Westerners living their corporate lifestyle, quite hedonistic lives, generally speaking, and then all of a sudden they take a retreat or they go on an ayahuasca journey or whatever it might be, and there's a complete flip in being, right? And all of a sudden, their entire life, their entire history, everything that they were walking or building has changed into a quote-unquote nothingness. And again, it's like there's no need to deal with the life that you've sowed up until this point. There's no need to deal with the consequences of ongoing hedonistic behavior. There's no need to deal with the consequences of constantly lying to oneself, to others, to trying to get ahead in not-so-healthy ways, et cetera, et cetera. And we see this so often. [Speaker 2] (15:20 - 16:26) Well, again, this just relates to, obviously, very often in these types, an escape from reality. My life is this. I don't want to deal with it anymore. I don't want to navigate. I have someone to go on a journey. I'm going to go on an adventure. It doesn't mean you can't go on the journey, but then are you really dealing with your shit, or are you taking these spiritual principles, these spiritual philosophies, and using them as a form of spiritual bypassing where you don't actually deal with the experience of being a human, that you do live in a body, okay? You can speak about transcending the body all you want, but you experience the world. You experience life. You experience your relationships through the body. If your partner hugs you, you're having a physiological response to that. If you hug your dog, you're having a physiological response to that. If you fall down and break your ankle, you're having a physiological response to that. So, again, there's many contradictions within elements of non-duality that I think just cause further confusion and dissonance. [Speaker 1] (16:26 - 17:11) Yeah, of course. If you begin to believe that nothing can be solved by the process of conceptual thinking, then nothing is going to be solved. There's going to be lots unresolved in one's life. But I actually question whether the people that really espouse this doctrine the most are following it. Because can anyone actually live this? Can anyone actually live their life not thinking? Can anyone actually live their life believing there is no separation between anything? Non-duality implies that there is not two. There is no duality. So, the moment that you even engage in life, the moment that you even share this philosophy, share your idea, you've contradicted the thing from the get-go. [Speaker 2] (17:12 - 17:29) Yeah. If you're a teacher of this, there must be someone on the other side that's listening and that you're trying to get to, that you want to learn this philosophy. So, again, I am thou, teacher and student. We're looking at a duality there. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (17:29 - 18:09) And this is the problem. People come into it from a place of inferiority. It gives them, from then, this awe-inspiring sense of spiritual enlightenment, which really is not enlightenment. It's regression, which we'll get into, which leads to feelings of elitism and superiority. Then they begin to teach something that no one can actually live. And so, then, this breeds more inferiority within the students who are trying to live this thing that's impossible to actually live in every single day life. Because ultimately, it does not make sense. It does not mix with reality. [Speaker 2] (18:09 - 18:10) It's oil and water. [Speaker 1] (18:10 - 18:11) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (18:11 - 18:49) Again, we're looking at–I mean, don't get me started on the amount of logical fallacies. I mean, you can go online, you can see people espouse this stuff, and they are littered with logical fallacies, dozens of them. And it's just like, even just on the most basic level–and we've been talking about this before this–but there's the self-refutation logical fallacy. So, again, it's like if there is no self and there is no individual, but you're still relying on the existence of a subject to make the claims that you're making. So, it's like, I don't know, it just comes across as being a little silly to me. [Speaker 1] (18:50 - 19:51) What is the point of doing anything? If there is no self, if there is no other, if there is no I and there is no thou, what is the point of doing anything? Do you have a family? Do you have kids? Do your kids have careers? Do you have a career? Does your wife cook in a kitchen? Do you write a book? Why are you doing anything? How can you possibly be teaching this if there is no self and other? Why engage on any level whatsoever? And the thing is, the people that claim to be the biggest proponents of this, they're constantly engaged. They're constantly trying to push this out there, constantly trying to highlight that there are other people who are dualists who do not believe this. How can you say there is another person that believes something different to me if you believe in non-duality? [Speaker 2] (19:53 - 20:15) Yeah, if you believe that's the only thing that's real and everything else is an illusion. How can you even speak and say I? How can you even speak and say you? You know, even the process of the creation, let's say you're a parent of your child, requires a male and a female, requires a sperm and an egg in order to create this other person. Is all of that an illusion? [Speaker 1] (20:17 - 21:04) Yeah, but there is no good and evil. There is no beneficial and non-beneficial. There is no health and not health, right? So, everything is treated in the same way. You might as well go and get 72 vaccines, right? What's the difference? Everything is made from the same thing. There is no poison and not poison. How can you speak out against anything? How can you point evil out in the world? How can you say this is wrong? And I see quote-unquote non-dualists or people that espouse this idea of non-duality call many things wrong. They highlight many pitfalls in the world. How and why? [Speaker 2] (21:05 - 21:15) Yeah. And again, there's just so many logical inconsistencies around this and there's so many contradictions that are just kind of like passed over. [Speaker 1] (21:16 - 23:24) Yeah. So, I want to talk about how this is not actually coming into this and having these quote-unquote, you know, supernal Samadhi experiences of realization, awakening, and enlightenment. I had one myself coming to a non-dualistic philosophy. It is not growth. It is not enlightenment. Like we've mentioned, it is actually a regression, okay? Because what this offers is a return to a room-like state, a return to a place where we no longer had to negotiate reality. And this is what's offered, this is what people experience, and this is what people call then an enlightened experience. When actually, it's a step backwards. It's not that at all. So, people have lived their entire lives in some form of pain, grief, suffering. They had incompetence, emotionally avoidant parenting, the super ego within their heads, the quote-unquote voice of their parents, very harsh, very critical, a constant antagonist for them to have to deal with. And then some guru sitting on a rock or someone writes a book, right, saying that the key is in that everything is the same. There is no better or worse. There is no need to think about anything. And so, that facade, that psychological reality of the super ego, of the voice in your head, of the inner critic, it weakens, right? It becomes less dominant. And this person then experiences a quote-unquote lack of suffering, which actually isn't dealing with the reality. And then they say, oh my goodness, this is the path. This is the way up the mountain. What are some of the teachings from non-dualist teachers when it comes to suffering? Do they believe in working with one's emotions? Do they believe in trauma? When it comes to trauma, how do they perceive trauma? [Speaker 2] (23:25 - 24:39) Yeah, well, they don't believe it's real. Because again, if you're just the ground of, if you're just consciousness, if you're limitless and internal, then you can't be wounded. That you can't be impacted negatively. That trauma, all you have to do is have this intellectual belief, and then it's fine. If you were raped, or if you were molested, if you had a bunch of people mug you on the streets, eh, don't worry about it. You're limitless and eternal. You're a non-duality practitioner, or adherent to non-duality. Then the work necessary to be done, you don't have to do that stuff. Your body's having a physiological response. You have survival stress stored in your body. Don't worry about that. Non-duality is the answer. Just have this intellectual understanding very often, or belief, that all is well, and that you're perfect, and none of that stuff should impact you, and it should just dissolve away into nothingness. Healing is an illusion. There's nothing to heal. [Speaker 1] (24:40 - 24:58) There is nothing to heal. Regardless of the varying spectrum of quote-unquote trauma, which doesn't exist through a non-dual lens, occurred across a various amount of individuals, there is actually no healing that should be done. [Speaker 2] (24:59 - 25:25) Yeah, so if the body is an illusion, and it's all about transcending the body, then why would you do anything to fix your body if you had an issue, if you couldn't walk? Well, then why do you want to walk? Why do you want to walk? In this illusion, what's the point? To go after something? To have a goal? To go from point A to point B? But that's an illusion. What's the purpose? Yeah. [Speaker 1] (25:26 - 25:56) All I have to do is remember my eternal interconnected self, and any psychological disposition, wound, physiological, anything that I picked up just goes away, and it's never going to prop up again from the ground of my unconscious to be dealt with. And again, conscious and unconscious. [Speaker 2] (25:57 - 27:12) Duality. Yes. But they won't believe in that. A lot of the non-dualists, they don't even believe in the shadow. They'll just toss that out. But it's really interesting to think about if you think of the material world, the thing outside, although to a non-dualist, nothing is outside of you. It's rising within you. I understand that consciousness is at the base. Can I even understand that this phone's in front of me or touch it without my consciousness? No. But again, absolute reality versus relative reality. We look out in the world. We look at a beautiful piece of art, a little piece of music, people that used the pain, the suffering that they experienced in life, in a body, to create these amazing things. People who had certain gifts and abilities. They were like, you know what? I think we should build that structure over there. I want to spend my time inventing solutions to the world's problems. Illusion? Nothing? There's no point in the material world at all? No. [Speaker 1] (27:13 - 28:36) But from the non-duality perspective, I actually believe there is a deep joy, let's say, in saying that there's no point or that there is no creation and that there is no point creating. Because I think really what's at the root of this is envy. This comes down to this whole idea that we've been talking about that is anti-thinking or another way to put it, the hatred of knowledge. This is the idea of misosophy, which was highlighted by philosopher Gabriel Marcel. This is an actual syndrome. Ultimately, it leads to the hatred of thinking. This idea becomes so attractive when in our lives prior to it, thinking hasn't led to fulfillment. It hasn't led to fruitful results. It hasn't led me to a place where I enjoy existence. So then it makes sense to tear down all of existence and to tear down all of reality and say it's all illusory and to say there is no hierarchy. There is no one doing more than I am doing. There is no one producing something more pristine than what I can produce. [Speaker 2] (28:38 - 28:54) Yeah. But then again, but then the contradiction is some of these non-dualists, they're out in the world and they're living in the material world and they're starting businesses and they're creating things at times too. So again, it's like, which one is it? Yeah, exactly. [Speaker 1] (28:55 - 29:23) It's just a matter of adopting this idea of philosophy, which they would never call it an idea of philosophy, claiming that it's the ultimate solution to existence and it's the only path, the only true path, but then doing everything that does not fit within its container. It's kind of schizophrenic when you think about it. [Speaker 2] (29:24 - 29:58) Yeah, bro. I mean, it definitely comes across as schizophrenic. I mean, there's definitely cognitive dissonance there because as a non-duality individual or someone that believes in it, they're espousing that there is no self again, that the world of distinctions is an illusion and yet they're operating in the world of duality as a self. So it's kind of, where is the reconciliation of that outside of like, oh yeah, now I'm the character in the dream. I'm in the dream right now and I'm playing the role of the person and I'm doing the thing. It's like, it's good. [Speaker 1] (29:59 - 31:32) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I mean, even to try and stop one's thinking, you have to think about stopping one's thinking. Yeah. It's always a process. Yes, but this is a philosophy that is anti-process, right? It is anti-thinking deeply about anything. It is anti-systems. It is the only ultimate truth is direct experience of what is on an absolute level and no other cognitive processes are necessary whatsoever. I want to highlight at this point in time, a quote by Ayn Rand. She says, Thinking is man's only basic virtue from which all the others proceed. And his basic vice, the source of all his evils, is that nameless act which all of you practice but struggle never to admit. The act of blanking out, the willful suspension of one's consciousness, the refusal to think, not blindness, but the refusal to see, not ignorance, but the refusal to know. It's the act of unfocusing your mind and inducing an inner fog to escape the responsibility of judgment on the unstated premise that a thing will not exist if only you refuse to identify it. A will not be A so long as you do not pronounce the verdict it is. [Speaker 2] (31:34 - 34:14) Yeah. It's such a great quote from her. And also I want to highlight, we haven't really highlighted it too much, but very often a non-dualist, they don't really place any value on psychology, on the architecture of the psyche, on what's going on, on interpersonal psychology, me and the other in my relationships. And I've seen this often because I've had people, when I've talked about some of this stuff online, they'll just come into my BMs, highly triggered, condescending, and passive-aggressive without even the awareness that they're doing that. So here you are espousing the absolute truth, the absolute wisdom of truth, that is non-duality or Advaita Vedanta, and you don't even have the ability to self-reflect and to go, hey, my emotion is highly triggered. I probably shouldn't just drop into this person's DMs and speak to them in a highly condescending, passive-aggressive tone. And then you need me to explain this to you. And then you go, oh, yeah, you're right. So here is this person who's connected to the ultimate wisdom of truth who doesn't even understand this. So again, we had a funny meme that we shared the other day where it's like, spirituality without psychology is emotional avoidance without incense. Wrapped in incense. Oh, yeah, sorry. Emotional avoidance wrapped in incense. Okay, it's a joke, but there's truth there. You take these super high spiritual ideas and understandings, and yet in your day-to-day, you don't know how to speak to people. You don't know how to communicate to people. You don't even know what's going on in your body. You're completely disconnected, and very often, I would say disembodied and disassociated at times. How does that impact relationship to self? Uh-oh, there's the term again, self, and then relationship to other. Uh-oh, there it is, relationship to other. You're in relationship with other people. How can that be? Unless you need to create some post hoc rationalization based on the foundational principle, then go, no way, but we're living in the dream world, and in the dream world, in the world of illusion, I'm me, and I have a mom, and I'm me, and I have a wife. I'm me, and I have a dog. What kind of fucking mental gymnastics do you need to go through to be able to go, I am the person who speaks the ultimate wisdom and truth out into the world? [Speaker 1] (34:14 - 34:35) Yeah, yeah, exactly. You've become so dogmatic about this underlying oneness, and this underlying interconnectedness that you've become completely disconnected yourself, because you've bought this idea that there is no self. [Speaker 2] (34:36 - 35:20) What is there to be interconnected? What is there to be interconnected? Again, there's a rigidity too. If one of these people was like, hey, listen, I understand that on some ground level, what's interconnected, and there's oneness, and I also understand at the same time, I'm an individual living in this world, and I have relationships, and I have my own inherent qualities and gifts, and I want to bring them to the world. I can get down with that. You don't need to make up this whole rationalization in order to explain relative reality, that we live in a dualistic world. [Speaker 1] (35:20 - 35:56) Yeah, yeah, but these people that buy into this, they are so far into delusion and into the mire that they claim to be escaping from, that they think that they supersede any therapy, any psychological help, any of the number of numerous avenues of healing paths that have been put forth and fleshed out and proven. It's all useless. [Speaker 2] (35:57 - 36:50) Yeah, yeah. They talk about personal experience, okay? That's the only truth. My personal experience of the oneness. And yet, these millions upon millions of people that have improved their lives, that have improved their relationships based on using different systems, different modalities, different understandings, what is that? That's falsity? So, in essence, you're gaslighting. In essence, you're saying your experience of reality, because you use the trauma tool or a modality to realize certain things about your past and to discharge survival stress from your body, to no longer live in fight or flight, to have a more regulated nervous system, to not tell people to fuck off at the littlest things. You're telling them that that's bullshit. That only, no, your personal experience of oneness and consciousness is all that there is. Fuck off. How's that? [Speaker 1] (36:51 - 37:04) Yeah, exactly. That's correct. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's this inferiority which moves into delusions of grandeur and elitism. And it's just completely riddled with contradictions. [Speaker 2] (37:05 - 38:03) And these people that espouse these types of beliefs, okay, that are like the ones that it's the overarching philosophy of their life, again, are there, like, what do they do when they react or respond in an inappropriate manner? If they act like a child, if they have a tantrum, if they get triggered emotionally, what's the self-reflected process that they go through to go, oh, wait, I just told my wife that she's a bitch. Do you have a process? How do you decipher what that interaction, what happened, what do you attribute it to? When this is at the root of your psyche as a philosophy of what life is. Yeah. Ultimately, I guess the process is repression, right? Well, yeah, maybe. [Speaker 1] (38:04 - 38:13) Maybe, I'm curious. Yeah, well, I mean, it seems ultimately to lead to a lot of armoring, as Reich would put it. [Speaker 2] (38:14 - 38:40) Some of these people are the most armored. Look at them. They are so rigid in their being, in their voice. There's no range in their voice. Their face very often looks like they've had like Botox. They speak in the same manner. I'm not saying this is a general statement, but I'm saying, take a look at some of these people outside of the fact that they're having physical issues in their life at times. [Speaker 1] (38:41 - 39:31) Yeah, exactly, man. And just like we were saying, regarding the dismissal of therapy and healing modalities, or the need to do anything to self-improve, because there is no self to improve. There is no self to develop. There is a tendency. And like I mentioned, I believe the root cause and the root driver really is envy, which is a hatred of reality, a hatred of the other person succeeding. And you'll see constantly how they reject all other teachings. They reject every other path. It's not only rejection, it's a pouring of corrosiveness all over what anyone else might create or generate or produce or teach. Yeah, that's right. The only path is my path, which is fucking dogmatism. [Speaker 2] (39:32 - 40:44) Yeah, it comes across. When I hear some of these people talk or make their posts online, they come across as religious fanatics. They do. It's just different. It's through the spiritual lens. It's not like maybe in the more conventional forms of Christianity or Islam or Judaism, someone who's hardcore dogmatic. I also want to highlight this. I don't want to knock an individual who has maybe a more integrated understanding of life and spirituality who goes, oh, man, there's non-dual principles that I can get down with and I align with. But I'm not to this point where I'm just like, when someone brings up the importance of the body or challenges the spiritual principles or talks about some of the things that we're talking about, the inherent contradictions, you know, like where they go, oh, my God, you're insane. You're crazy. You don't know anything about this stuff. Like this is the supreme truth. No, you can have an integrated perspective. And I think as we move forward in life and as we evolve, that's super important. It's those who don't have the capacity to take in some of this other information or to have, you know, maybe have a more balanced take. They're the ones that get the most triggered. [Speaker 1] (40:44 - 40:45) Yes, exactly. [Speaker 2] (40:46 - 40:56) But you shouldn't be getting triggered if you're connected to the most high, if you're connected to the oneness. There's no self and there's no other. There's nothing to be triggered by. [Speaker 1] (40:56 - 40:57) That's right. [Speaker 2] (40:58 - 41:04) Again, how can you be triggered if there's no self and no other there to do the thing or say the thing or write the thing to trigger you? [Speaker 1] (41:05 - 41:48) Yeah, exactly. And I mean, this is a link that is definitely very clear to me. But let's highlight some of the signposts of dogmatism, which you will find rampant within certain teachers and adherents of non-duality. So the rejection of any idea that challenges their belief system without through consideration, 100 percent, because how can you consider something if you can't even think about something in the first place, right? So it's just blatant rejection. Holding unwavering certainty in their views, dismissing the possibility of being wrong. Yeah. Yeah. They often speak in absolutes using words like always or never to assert their opinions. [Speaker 2] (41:49 - 41:58) Yeah. They also have freaking no tolerance for complexity or ambiguity. Yes, exactly. Again, very often it's an oversimplification. [Speaker 1] (41:58 - 42:19) There is no nuance. There is no nuance. It's a very, very, very, very black and white. Yeah. Quick to label opposing views as ignorant, misguided, right? A resistance to engaging in open dialogue or debate, believing their perspective is the only valid one. Now, we have personal experience with this as well. [Speaker 2] (42:19 - 44:23) Yeah. I mean, we definitely have personal experience with this. I'm not to name names, but we did a podcast maybe two years ago now, I think early on, where we had someone on who definitely is someone who espouses non-duality. And we were getting into conversations around self-responsibility, individuation, and selfhood. And Joel asked a question about selfhood, which is, again, the process of becoming an individual and individuating and being a distinct individual. And I was so surprised that when the podcast became a little bit more towards discussion than just having this person espouse their views, that he got super triggered and immediately said, stop recording, end this podcast, this isn't going out. So, we have done over 205 podcast episodes, and we have never had anyone do this. And we bring up controversial things often. And yet, a person who is connected to the supreme truth of the world couldn't handle a simple question on selfhood because it challenges the dogmatic beliefs of being a self. And yet, we're having a podcast where there's two of us interviewing this other person. So, again, how can you consider yourself connected to the supreme truths and then also behave in a way from an interpersonal standpoint, again, me and other, that highlights, I would say, low emotional intelligence and psychological intelligence. Or maybe you just don't even have a grasp on your, again, I'm going to call it a belief system, or you're solid in who you are, if something so simple as a question is going to trigger you in that way. [Speaker 1] (44:23 - 45:20) Yeah. Because despite your denial of reality, reality still goes on, okay? And ultimately, this leaves one with a problem if you decide that this is your lens to live your life and view reality, of which, of course, it's an illusion anyway. But yeah. Okay. So, let's talk about dualism in nature and dualism in reality and the ubiquity of polarities that we see all around us, right? Because nature is full of examples where opposing or complementary forces exist, whether it's light and dark, moon and sun, hot and cold, positive, negative charges, hello electricity, male, female, right? In the very fabric of existence, we see dualism reflected time and time and time again. [Speaker 2] (45:22 - 45:57) Yeah. But again, this is the argument that all of that perception is arising within oneself. So, that's it. Then we discount all of that and go back to it's just the one thing, the single thing. Again, which dismisses relative reality and the experiences and the personal experiences that billions of people are having. How do you explain shared experiences from a non-dual standpoint? How do you explain growth if there's no contrast? If it's just coming within yourself. [Speaker 1] (45:57 - 46:29) How do you explain growth if there's no contrast? All growth arises from a friction at the base of your psyche, from an underlying restlessness. If there was no tension between who I am and where I want to be or the experience I'm having not being the most ideal experience and me wanting to have a better experience, there would not be action. There would not be behavioral change or adaptation. There would not be any reason for doing. [Speaker 2] (46:31 - 47:35) Yeah. I agree. And yet, there's a lot of doing that comes from these people. Yes. And I always keep bringing it up, but it's like, why do you have to make a rationalization in order to explain your day-to-day reality instead of being like, there is truth to that. There is truth to sleeping and then waking up. Duality. Yeah. There's truth to, I'm going to have breakfast. Hmm. Do I use a spoon or do I use a fork? This or that? When you think about your emotional state. I mean, the psyche lives in duality. There's a compensatory mechanism within the psyche. If you over-identify with one way of being, one emotion, one quality, that the other side is very likely going to slide away into the unconscious. Again, back to what you said earlier, conscious, unconscious. So, yeah, we're just pointing out how duality is a part of our experience as we go through life. [Speaker 3] (47:35 - 47:35) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (47:35 - 47:54) We're just discounting that or rationalizing against it as being this fake dream and illusion and that you're just like a video game character going through it. Okay, cool. I'm a video game character. Okay. I still have to deal with this shit. If someone takes a fucking bat and it hits me in the head, I'm going to feel it. Someone on the other side of the world isn't going to feel the bat in my head. [Speaker 1] (47:58 - 48:16) Yeah. But even Eastern traditions espouse, Eastern traditions that emphasize unity still espouse duality, right? Taoism, the yin and the yang. Opposite, but complementary forces that are necessary for balance, right? [Speaker 3] (48:17 - 48:18) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (48:18 - 49:04) Even that is not fundamentally non-dual. It shows that dualism is an essential part of nature and a dynamic relationship that forms it. Yeah. We see this clash and interplay of opposites all around us constantly. Order and chaos, right? Expansion and contraction, wave in, wave out. These are the things that generate the conditions for life, for existence, for evolution. Again, conscious, unconscious. Let's throw Carl Jung at the fucker window. Sorry, bro. Everything that you did in your entire life, every study that you undertook, every book that you wrote, there's some guy on the internet telling you it's all bullshit. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (49:04 - 49:18) And your philosophies and the work that you've done that has helped countless people have better relationships and better understand themselves. No, that didn't happen. That's not true. You're wrong. I'm right. [Speaker 1] (49:19 - 49:34) Yeah, exactly. The human psyche is just one thing. There is no dualistic nature to the psyche. There's no conscious, unconscious, persona, shadow. There's no need for individuation. You're already individuated. Every single person that's ever been born, ever. [Speaker 2] (49:36 - 49:47) Yeah. You could make the argument that especially people that adhere to more extreme forms of non-duality in terms of what they espouse are like extreme gaslighters. [Speaker 1] (49:47 - 50:26) Yeah. We said that before, but yes, absolutely. I know, but I just want to highlight it again for sure. Even Freud. Sorry, sorry, Freud, Eros, Thanatos. No, there's no life drive and death drive. There's no multiple impulses. Everyone is impulsing a single thing at the same time, all the time. Nothing is shaped by competing forces. That is what we're saying here. How is a stone cast? How did Michelangelo bring Adam forth out of that stone? [Speaker 3] (50:28 - 50:29) Big, bro. It's big. [Speaker 1] (50:32 - 51:48) Anyway, obviously, we can keep going with this conversation and with this discussion. It is not our intention to completely throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like we mentioned, there's some positives that can come from this, but ultimately, you need to be very wary of becoming dogmatic, right? This is the fundamental issue. Is that life requires you to think deeply and to think for yourself. If you adopt an idea that asks you not to think deeply and not to think for yourself, then you are going to become immobilized, okay? Your hands, your mind, your conscious, rational faculties get tied and handcuffed. This leads to regression in one's life. Despite whatever anything may be teaching, first and foremost, question it appropriately. Allow your own mind to be the final arbiter and judge of truth. Don't just put anyone who seems to be saying fancy words on a pedestal. [Speaker 2] (51:50 - 52:18) Yeah, man. Well said. I agree with you. I think something that we talk about often in our podcast is just to be wary of the fanaticism of the dogmatism and make space for integration, make space for wholeness in that regard. I think a lot of what we're talking about here, again, like you said, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but we want to poke at some of the inconsistencies that people accept without question. [Speaker 1] (52:18 - 52:35) Yeah, exactly. Because it's very, very necessary, right? Particularly for those on this path. I've been attracted to it. I've seen millions of people, we see it all the time, get magnetized towards these very oversimplified teachings, which ultimately do not yield fruits. [Speaker 2] (52:37 - 52:53) Just the idea that, okay, in an instant, you're enlightened, that's it, and then you're going to continue that way until you transition out of your body. That's it. You know, it takes all the, it looks down on inner work. [Speaker 1] (52:54 - 54:05) Yeah, I mean- You know, we, you want to add something? I mean, suffering, pain, like this is a fundamental aspect of reality, like anxiety, insecurity, fear. And these things are unnecessary, right? We need to be attuned to the signals that they're actually sending to us. They are signposts leading us towards greater horizons, towards greater joy, right? Like, these are ways for us to mark and track our paths in life. And so, to completely say, I'm going to become blind, turn off all the signals, reject anything that arises within my physiology, my psyche, that is trying to tell me something or hint to me something, this is how you become an automaton. This is how you become the real NPC, right? This is how you'd lose all attunement to your intuitive faculties, to yourself, to the great mystery of life, to who you're really here to become, to the purpose that imbues every single one of us. [Speaker 2] (54:06 - 55:29) Yeah. And I also think of systems like astrology and human design that highlight the uniqueness of the individual, where countless people have benefited from these systems. Yeah. And even the countless people, especially over the last, let's say, 10, 20 years, as we've come to new understandings around the nervous system, and our physiology, and trauma, and how the psyche and the body is impacted, and how many people also that maybe came from these spiritual traditions, or this spiritual dogma, or getting sucked into the new age world, realize that a lot of this stuff didn't really change their life for the better. Sitting there and going, oh, I believe I'm limitless and internal, or all is one, and everything's one, and that's it, and that you're not your body. There were no fruits to that in a lot of these people's lives. And I say that because I've had countless clients in the last 10, 15 years who come from that, who didn't benefit, and yet they go through different processes, and use different tools and modalities, and have a different experience of the world. They can relate better. Again, I brought this stuff up earlier. So, all that gets thrown out the window? [Speaker 1] (55:30 - 55:45) Bro, even saying that non-duality is the supreme truth implies that there are lies. And so, again, there's a duality immediately, and you're trying to create a supreme truth. [Speaker 2] (55:47 - 56:23) Yeah. I remember we had our dear friend we had on the podcast, Matt Presti, and we asked him questions around non-duality and duality. And he says he likes to look at things as a triality. And I kind of, I don't know, I liked his explanation. I don't know exactly what it was, when you think of the one mind, the all is mine, and then the world of duality, and what that interplay is. Cool, I can get down with some of that. But to just go, yeah, relative reality, all bullshit, your life, your relationships, your feelings, your experiences, you know, all illusion. [Speaker 1] (56:24 - 58:26) Yeah. Thanks for listening, guys. If you resonate with some of what we're saying, if you feel like you've taken a number of paths in life, tried a number of different teachings, ideas, and I guess, hasn't really led you to that greater feeling, that greater joy, that life of deeper fulfillment that we all essentially crave, then we have Rise Above the Herd. And in my view, this is an incredibly holistic self-development program, incorporating multiple modalities, the things that have best worked for us. We have over 110 graduates, we have hundreds of testimonials of people's lives really being impacted and changed in profound ways. But I want to preface that, this is a no bullshit program. In this program, we're encouraging you, and imploring you, and pushing you to be more real with yourself, to be more truthful with yourself, to think deeply, to observe your reality in a realistic way, and not to shy away from the pain of that reality, because ultimately, that is the catalyst for growth. But the idea is that you have 10 weeks of support in this process and in that journey from us, and from Sophie Fletcher, Yerasimos's wife, previous episodes with her, and nervous system experts probably hate me calling her that, but in my opinion, she definitely is. And yeah, if you're ready for a shift, if you're ready for a change, if you're ready to move out of stagnancy and get the wheels moving, then we start October 15th, and you can enter riseabovetheherd.co to learn more. If you don't like anything about what we said in this episode, feel free to let us know and we'll let you know what we think about your saying as well. We're more than open to genuine discourse to lead to greater understanding for all parties involved.