Joel & Yerasimos Breaking the Echo Chamber & Building Intellectual Maturity

(0:00 - 0:11) Coming up in this episode. Can we allow other people to have completely different views than us without needing to get into an argument? We are so complex. There is so much history within us. (0:11 - 0:21) There's so many belief systems. There's so much knowledge. To think that one person has their finger on the pulse of truth around every single subject at every single moment in time is ridiculous. (0:22 - 0:43) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimus. What's up, guys? Welcome to this midweek, shorter episode of Here for the Truth. Every now and then we just jump on and we feel like we got some points, which we need to hit on. (0:44 - 1:15) Shorter? Shorter, bro? You don't want me to talk for 90 minutes? Well, I mean, you know, I do have to endure hearing your voice for like at least three to four hours each day already as it is. So when it comes time to kind of, you know, have two podcasts in a single week, yeah, I don't think I can stretch the 90 minutes. But, you know, the positive news is I am the current standing Backgavin champion in our ongoing duel. (1:15 - 1:36) Are we really getting into this? Joel ended the longest losing streak between us, either of us in a game of Backgammon. And I give you credit, bro. You now are wearing the crown, but we'll see how long that lasts. (1:37 - 1:46) We shall see how long that lasts. And bro, if Ali's got the belt, Ali's got the belt. Doesn't matter how many losses happen prior to that. (1:47 - 1:51) As I like to say, you're only as good as your last game. That's it. That's it. (1:51 - 2:21) So our previous episode was an episode with Yaron Nabrok, former director of the Ayn Rand Institute. And I guess at some points in that episode, he expressed pretty strong convicted views around certain issues about COVID vaccines and other political takes. That listeners of our podcast, well, people that know us and know our podcast, know where we kind of stand on those issues. (2:21 - 2:40) And we received some comments during the week from people who couldn't listen past a certain point. They were unable to continue to take in information. The moment Yaron made his stance clear on vaccines being safe and effective and COVID jabs being safe and effective. (2:40 - 3:03) And we kind of wanted to use that as fuel and as propulsion to kind of explore how we can all grow intellectually and consciously. So do you want to set the foundation here, bro? Yeah, sure. A lot of the things that happen in our life act as data for us, especially the things that super, super trigger us. (3:03 - 3:19) And so like Joel mentioned, we had received some comments privately in email, on our website, and even on Instagram. And my first response initially is what Joel had mentioned before, is that our audience knows where we stand. We have guests on our podcast that we don't agree with every single thing that they say. (3:20 - 3:43) And there's not one single person on this planet where I agree with every single thing that they say. And we obviously get into a lot of esoteric stuff around health, even beyond the mainstream alternative point of view. In our explorations and our chats around challenging germ theory and virology and getting into Dr. Homer's work, we really, I feel like we bring a unique take on that, at least that issue. (3:44 - 4:09) And so for us, we want to continue to have dynamic conversations and also expose people to different points of view on different subjects. That said, if they say something that we aren't in agreement with, once in a while, we may push back a little bit. And other times we don't push back because you have to, as a human being, you have to use your discernment. (4:09 - 4:36) And as people who host a podcast like Joel and I do and have for the last four years, you have to tune into your guests and go, why are they here? What are they saying? How convicted are they in their beliefs? And so if you're feeling into, okay, now's the time to maybe bring up something or to push the envelope or to challenge, sure. But there are times where someone is very, very solid in their belief that they know the truth. And so for me, that's how I came across the last episode. (4:36 - 4:43) I was like, there's no point to challenge someone for the sake of challenging. So what I can sound like, look at me, I have knowledge. Let me share with you. (4:44 - 4:51) We wanted to have a conversation about Ayn Rand. We wanted to have a conversation about some of her work. And we focused on that. (4:51 - 5:20) We didn't want to derail the conversation so we can get into an arguing match about who has the most updated holistic science on the nature of vaccines and that. So yeah, I guess that's my initial take to lay this foundation. And I just think for anyone listening, whether it's a podcast, whether it's your interpersonal relationships, if you don't have the capacity, and again, we get into understanding your own system. (5:20 - 6:05) If you don't have the capacity to even just hear someone share what they share without slamming your computer down, without going off without cursing someone out, that is data for you. That is information for you to go, okay, where do I need to grow intellectually? Where do I need to grow from an emotional standpoint? Can we allow other people to have completely different views than us at times without needing to get into an argument? Like I said, there's a time and a place and it's up to you to determine that time and place. But I just find it interesting and I have to take this in with myself when I completely want to shut someone out and I've been there and I probably still go there where someone says something I don't agree with and I'm like, fuck that dude. (6:05 - 6:11) I'm not fucking listening to anything they fucking say. And it's like, we are so complex. There's so much history within us. (6:11 - 6:22) There's so many belief systems. There's so much knowledge. To think that one person has their finger on the pulse of truth around every single subject at every single moment in time is ridiculous. (6:22 - 6:35) And so we have to move beyond this thing where we want everyone to think about every single view the way we do. And if they don't, we throw the fucking baby out with the bathwater. Yeah. (6:35 - 6:57) Very well said, man. And it's kind of apropos because you can kind of make the argument that potentially that is where our guest was kind of at. When you take a single philosophy, a single teacher, a single system of thought, and you believe it can solve every single answer of human existence. (6:58 - 7:22) And it's just not the case. And at the same time, I don't believe that all Randians or all objectivists are going to necessarily share the same point of view as your own take in that instance. So I don't think that that is reflective of where studying Ayn Rand or studying objectivism is ultimately going to lead you. (7:22 - 7:49) Because what objectivism is at its core is you using your individual reason as the sole source of knowledge acquirement. And so individuals, their reason is going to lead them to different places. Reason isn't necessarily mean that every single person is going to arrive at the same answer and the same conclusion. (7:50 - 8:08) Ayn Rand is an individual whose philosophy has completely transformed my life in so many amazing, empowering ways. And my reason, my personal reason leads me to a very different answer to Yaron Brooks around those issues as well. Yeah, I mean, I agree. (8:08 - 8:39) Obviously, Ayn Rand has had an influence on me. And I think a lot of her teachings are the antidote to the lack of self-esteem and the lack of personal responsibility that we have seen. The way our younger generations have been educated, I feel like the things that she talks about, and even the things that Nathaniel Brandon speaks about, which again, Yaron and certain people within the objectivist community have a strong opinion on psychology or a strong opinion on Nathaniel Brandon. (8:39 - 9:04) But these are tools, and this is information and knowledge I can really support an individual to really become much more empowered and understand and love and accept themselves on a deeper, deeper level. Yeah. And the problem comes is when we lose and we outsource our power to anyone, to any thought, to any idea, to any individual. (9:05 - 9:27) I don't believe Ayn Rand solves every single issue. I don't believe she's correct on every single point. And what happens is when people find something that is super aligned, super resonant, has a deep core of truth, and then there's something that props up, right, where they disagree, then it becomes like an issue. (9:28 - 9:41) And this is the same thing. Even growing up, we project so much onto our parents as being all seeing, all knowing, all having it all figured out. And then we awaken from that delusion as well. (9:41 - 9:48) And we may completely flip and be like, oh, dad and mom was wrong about everything. They didn't know anything. Let me reject everything completely. (9:49 - 9:55) And then we mature again. And it's like, oh, actually, maybe there is some value there. Maybe there is some gold there. (9:55 - 10:36) Maybe there are some things that are really powerful, guiding truths, which I'm really grateful for. And so I think we need to, as we go on this philosophical intellectual journey, as we continue to grow in consciousness, it's about being able to have your own personal individual container where you can hold the gold and you can hold the lead from these different ideas and different systems and be able to personally sift through them without having to completely negate or completely discount any single person or teacher. And I think this is where we're heading towards in ultimately shifting from dogmatic thought to dynamic thought. (10:37 - 11:41) Yeah, well said. And I think it highlights too that when our identity gets wrapped up into our worldviews or our opinions or our belief systems or whatever, whether you consider yourself a Buddhist or a Christian or whatever, and then you look at the world solely through a very rigid lens, anyone that challenges a certain aspect of that, it's gonna feel like a deep personal attack, that they're just attacking your entire being. And so I've seen way too many times over the last, I don't know, several years, especially with social media, especially with the reactivity that we witness over and over again and the polarization that we witness over and over again, of how someone, let's say, that you would put on a pedestal or someone that you admired or respected or considered a quote unquote influencer, comments on something happening in the world that goes against the thing that you believe in related to that thing. (11:42 - 12:34) And I can't tell you how many times I've just seen people go on people's pages and go, unfollowing! I can't believe I ever listened to anything that you ever said. Now, how intellectually immature and emotionally immature is that? Where you would throw out five, 10 years, whatever, six months of wisdom or knowledge that you got from someone that impacted you, and because they said one thing, let's use for instance, their view on Israel and Palestine or their view on COVID and vaccines, that was antithetical to what you believed, that you chose, like I mentioned earlier, to just throw everything out the window. I think that has more to say about you or the person doing that than the person that's just sharing their views that may be different than yours. (12:35 - 12:53) And so it's an invitation for all of us to catch ourselves when we're behaving like this. When something comes into our periphery, into our consciousness, into our minds, can you keep an open curiosity? Now, you may firmly believe, like, yeah, I don't agree with that. But I'm curious. (12:54 - 13:13) Let me stay open to this. Because when we pretend that we have the truth, that we know the truth, there's a rigidity there that we can't, we're not open to anything else even peeking through that may impact us. For instance, even people who, and again, at the end of the day, you're free to use your time however you want to use your time. (13:13 - 13:24) This isn't about like, I can't believe you turned off our podcast episode, I'm so upset with you. No, it's not about that. It's more about, hey, so maybe you were enjoying the episode up until that point. (13:24 - 13:54) Then something was said and you're like, that's it, I'm done. You're robbing yourself of the potential, I'm not saying that it would have happened, the potential of for the next 60 minutes taking something in that potentially could have an impact on your life, on your way of thinking, on your sense of self. This is a reminder to me, like I said again before, where are those times where I'm dismissive 100% and can I open up a little bit to the possibility that there's something to learn there? Yeah. (13:55 - 14:14) And that level of rigidity in thinking, it completely stifles creativity as well. It completely stifles growth. You're closing the window to a whole array of spectrum of colors that you can use on your palette of thoughts and in the way that you interact with others. (14:14 - 14:54) And I think this is another kind of warning post for everyone is to really question the echo chambers that we find ourselves in. And really clinging firmly to single ideologies can create these echo chambers really quickly that completely block out fresh ideas and completely block out the value from people that might think differently to us, from people that might hold different political views to us. Being able to sit in the tension of opposites and absorb ideas from multiple parties and multiple spectrums is absolutely crucial, I think, for personal progress and for innovation. (14:55 - 15:12) Like even, obviously, the left and liberalism is really on the stake right now. And people are very quick to completely now dismiss all leftist thought, all liberal thought because of how far it's strayed from legality. And I get it. (15:12 - 15:19) I've spoken on this endlessly. And also, there's rational liberals. There's rational leftist ideas. (15:19 - 15:49) There's people with rational critiques of where we may be headed in a conservative era as well. And especially in today's day and age when the algorithm is feeding upon our preferences, our clicks, our likes, our follows, and it's just continuing to hone and refine this echo chamber that we find ourselves in. Then all of a sudden, we can find ourselves believing that, oh, this is just the whole world now. (15:49 - 16:25) Yeah. I think where this really has an impact, and you see it in this online realm that we're at, where is the empathy? The things that we do to others, where we literally other them. Again, during the COVID years, you had people that were literally wanting to throw people like us or people that were challenging the mainstream narrative or challenging the mandate that you had to get a vaccine, thrown in concentration camps. (16:25 - 16:33) And some would even go online and be like, these people should be rounded up and murdered. Yeah. Murdered. (16:33 - 16:53) And again, we have historical examples of this. So it's like, this is where levels of indoctrination or not even, let's, fuck indoctrination. Let's just say levels of dogmatism that keeps you from even being open to a different viewpoint of having the heart to just hear someone out and listen to someone. (16:54 - 17:10) And I think this is one of the negative things of technology, is that you're not with a person. You know how many people that are on the left? Let's just use the left as an example. We can do the right as well, but let's start with the left because it seems like there's a little bit more extremism there, in my opinion. (17:11 - 17:45) And they've moved a little bit more far off center. It's like they think people in red states, people that voted for Trump are fucking the worst human beings alive, all racist, all transphobic. And yet, what would happen if you were down in Alabama at a cafe just having a conversation? Like, you're losing the humanity of these people who just look at the world differently and yet have a heart and care and just want to take care of their families. (17:45 - 18:07) And so, we lose that connection. Like, this is just another human being because we're just like seeing words on a fucking page, on an online, on a screen, as opposed to an actual human being in front of me, you know, where you can get in, you can take in more knowledge, body language, tone of voice, someone's essence. So, you know, the same thing goes for people on the extreme right. (18:07 - 18:21) I just think anyone that might identify as liberal is some fucking crazy, you know? Yep. I cannot tell you. Living in Mexico, like this is obviously where I am in San Miguel de Allende, there's plenty of expats, American expats. (18:22 - 18:34) And I get into these beautiful conversations with these American expats, many of them older. We're so aligned, lots of values being shared. And then, you know, they'll explain to me, like, sometimes why they're here. (18:34 - 18:55) And they're like, we've lost our country. Our country no longer belongs to us. You know, and like, there's such deep sadness and conviction in the fact that, you know, there's this ultimate, this incredibly terrible thing that has kind of happened to their country with Donald Trump being elected and the country no longer belonging to them. (18:55 - 19:33) And like, in that moment, I know if I kind of expressed my personal viewpoints, then all of a sudden, the relationship that we just had and the beautiful conversation that we kind of just ignited would kind of fall flat, fall awkward, you know, and kind of become nothing and become a loss. But, you know, being able to hold the nuance of realizing, okay, this person is in an ideological chamber in this particular regard. And that doesn't mean that we just didn't have an amazing conversation of shared values, shared empathy, being on similar journeys, seeing the world in so many ways, which are resonance. (19:34 - 19:50) But how often would it happen where then there's a political disagreement? And then all of a sudden, we just throw that out the window. Like, how much must we be missing with how often that can happen? Yeah. And another great example of that is, you know, I live in Los Angeles area. (19:50 - 20:07) And obviously, you have Hollywood, you have the entertainment business here. And, you know, most people that are in the entertainment business lean a certain way from a sociopolitical standpoint. And so, I've had multiple conversations with a lot of people that say maybe lean a different way in regards to that, but that work in that industry. (20:08 - 20:26) And it's like, I would literally, they're like, these people that I get along with, that I hang out with, we have some cool conversations about life, about work, about creativity, whatever. That if I were to share my exact views, I would never work again. Like, just think of that. (20:26 - 20:36) I would never work again. I would be fired. And the reality is, I have a dear friend of mine that 2020, 2021 happened, and he stood up for his convictions. (20:36 - 20:44) And he didn't go, you know, try to maybe get a fake card or something. And, you know, was like, listen, like, I don't believe in this. I shouldn't have to take a vaccine. (20:44 - 20:50) And like, he lost all his work. Yeah. And like, a high percentage of that never came back. (20:50 - 20:59) Yeah. And there's certain times where it's necessary to have to stand up to that degree. And I genuinely believe in the pandemic eras. (20:59 - 21:10) Like, it was very necessary because there was- Oh, totally. There was boundaries that should never be even thought about crossed. And we needed heavy resistance. (21:11 - 21:32) Okay. And there's times where it's like, there's not really a cost to you. And it's not a betrayal of truth to kind of just, you know, show platitudes and kind of move on with your life without having to get into the nitty gritty about vaccines and the political theater with every single person that you relate to. (21:32 - 21:38) Yeah, of course. And of course, people have the opportunity to make their own choices, even from like a business standpoint. Okay. (21:38 - 21:45) So like, there were rules put in place. Like, you have to do this or else you can't work. And so, you have to make that decision for yourself. (21:45 - 22:04) And this is something actually we didn't get into the last episode that I wanted to highlight when I think Yaron was talking about like, yeah, well, you know, businesses can do what they do and then you're free to make your own choice. But unfortunately, I don't think it was just the businesses that were making a choice on whether you should wear a mask or not. Like, this was coming up from higher places, from a much more centralized state. (22:04 - 22:20) And it was like government overreach. Everyone was just going on to get along. Because if there were businesses out there, restaurants or something in some places that had harsher lockdowns, that made the choice not to, they would be getting pushback and potential fines from the government. (22:20 - 22:38) So, they weren't free as a business to make their own choice and then allow, let's say, the free market and people to go, you know what, I'm going to go to this place because I don't have to wear a mask. Or I'm going to go to this place because I can wear a mask and my friend who doesn't want to wear a mask doesn't have to wear a mask. So, we can go to this place together. (22:38 - 22:49) Do you know what I'm trying to say? Yeah, the coercion was coming from a higher level, which was distorting the freedom in the first place. Yeah, absolutely. I know what you're trying to say. (22:50 - 23:34) And so, it's like, how do we, what is the goal? What is the goal? And for me, the goal is always more expansion, more psychological wholeness, more consciousness, more capacity, more ability within our minds and our body and our spirit to stand between the tension of opposites, of contradicting ideas and contradicting systems. And I think that's the metric and that's the barometer upon which we should really measure our growth. And the last few years and even ongoing has been such fertile ground for us to sincerely engage in this work of becoming more psychological whole. (23:35 - 23:49) Because we've never seen more polarity. We've never seen more contradiction. We've never seen, literally, you can be living in an alternate universe to someone else at this point in time because our ideas are just so fucking different from one another. (23:51 - 23:57) January 20th. That's all you have to say. My Facebook feed was literally just complete polarization. (23:57 - 24:07) There was a group of people thinking it was the worst thing that we were in a dark age. And then you had people that were like, we're in a golden age. Like people that are living a completely different reality. (24:08 - 24:38) But all I know and what you were saying is, I know I talk about this a lot, but like the difference between curiosity versus the need to be certain. How can you train yourself to be more intellectually curious? You know, to consider as opposed to immediately just shut off. You know, it doesn't mean you need to take on another person's beliefs, but do you even have the space and the openness to even just like let someone say that? Yeah. (24:38 - 24:44) You know, it's not my fucking job to change everybody's mind. Like I'm responsible for myself. I'm living my life. (24:44 - 24:52) I'm doing what I have to do. Now, there are moments when I want to engage more with someone. But at the end of the day, like everyone's on their own journey. (24:52 - 25:06) I'm doing what I do and I align with the people that I align with. And I like to stay open to things. There are people that came back into my life that had pretty much nixed me, canceled me, et cetera, based on my views of in 2020 and 2021. (25:06 - 25:18) And we were able to come to an understanding of like, hey, listen, we may not agree 100% on this stuff, but you know what? Like as some friends said to me, like, but like, you're my homie. Like, I love you. I know your heart. (25:18 - 25:38) Whereas I kind of got distracted from that because there was high levels and a lot of money put into propagandizing human beings to be fearful of people that had different views than them. Yeah, absolutely. Now a short break from the episode. (25:38 - 25:49) Hey guys, hope you're enjoying this conversation. Just wanted to remind you too, that this is the last time ever that we're having a live cohort for Rise Above the Herd. We begin March 4th. (25:49 - 26:04) There's only a few spots left. So if you like the conversation that's going on right now and want to go even deeper in ways, it's just going to support you to kind of stand in your truth even more. And that's going to allow you to live a more heroic life and move closer towards being that person that you were born to be. (26:04 - 26:10) We'd love to go on this journey with you. You can go to Rise Above the Herd. Nah, it's theheforthetruth.com now. (26:10 - 26:15) I know. Yeah. It's hereforthetruth.com slash R-A-T-H. (26:15 - 26:24) So check that out. You could get on a 20-minute call with us if you have any questions, or you can just sign up and come on this ride with this 10-week journey with us. We'd really appreciate it. (26:25 - 26:39) Back to the episode. You know, there's something really powerful about healthy skepticism and healthy doubt, especially when applied to ourselves. And there's a whole series of philosophical thought and ideas around this. (26:40 - 26:54) And it's called the philosophy of fallibilism. And so to define fallibilism, this is the philosophical principle that all human knowledge and beliefs are inherently fallible. That is, no belief or theory can ever be known with absolute certainty. (26:55 - 27:36) It suggests that our understanding of the world is always provisional and subject to revision when new evidence or better reasoning emerges. Rather than claiming absolute truth, fallibilism promotes intellectual humility, encouraging us to remain open-minded and critical about our convictions. And I really think this is something that can bring so much more spaciousness and awareness and joy and openness and creativeness to your life when you understand that all human knowledge ultimately is fallible and is able to be improved upon when new knowledge and new reason emerges. (27:36 - 27:54) So you need to hold your convictions in some certain degree of certainty. But to claim that there's absolute certainty on any of those ideas, I think is erroneous. Well, it's a dance between I know and I may not know. (27:55 - 28:04) Like that continues on. Yeah. And to what degree do you navigate that dance as consciously as possible? I'm very passionate. (28:05 - 28:13) I can be self-righteous at times. But do you have space within your thinking to go, I mean, I'm open to being wrong. It could happen. (28:13 - 28:40) I don't think I am, but I'm open. That's very different. How does that impact your relationships? How does it impact your communication? How does that impact your listening? How does that impact the way you think? When you're more open to integrating different schools of thought or being open to them, as opposed to completely isolating yourself into, I have found the golden nugget of truth. (28:40 - 28:53) That is the only truth that exists. And I stake my flag in the ground and I'm not open to anything else. And I have to filter everything that comes out of your mouth through the singular lens that relates and aligns to this one system of thought. (28:54 - 28:56) Cool. You could do that. Great. (28:56 - 29:02) Boring. That's boring as fuck. I agree. (29:03 - 29:09) I mean, I've been like an integralist for decades. I'm like, oh, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Oh, that works. (29:09 - 29:11) That doesn't work. Oh, that lands with me now. Oh, wow. (29:11 - 29:15) That landed with me. I thought that was the truth 10 years ago. I don't think it makes sense anymore. (29:17 - 29:39) How many people do you know in the world that take a course or adopt a philosophy or thinking like in their 20s and 50 years later, they're saying the same thing, maybe with just a little new flavor on it, as if they are the all knowers of what reality is and what the truth is. Yeah. Yeah, totally. (29:40 - 29:53) A personal reflection, I remember, and you know this very well, my first exploration of Rand. The good old days, the good old days. Diving into Atlas Shrugged, this book, this knowledge. (29:53 - 30:01) The Virtue of Selfishness. These ideas impacted me so heavily. They corrected so much for me in my life. (30:02 - 30:20) And Rand is very strong on certain points when it comes to divination, which was a contradiction for me being a tarot reader and very interested in mystery and divination and things of that nature. She's very strong on intuition. She's very strong on reality is reality. (30:20 - 30:46) And for many people that would just stick to that path purely and just hold Rand infallibly on a pedestal, that would close off so much exploration on a deeper intuitive level, on a cosmic level. There'd be complete rejection of systems like human design, astrology and tarot. And absolutely, this is the case with people that consider themselves pure objectivists. (30:47 - 30:56) And I just think that that's such a limited way to move through the world. And it's going to happen at times. It's going to happen when you read a book, you encounter a teacher. (30:56 - 31:05) It's very heavy. It really impacts you. And I think there's something within our personal psychology where it's like, we want the answer. (31:05 - 31:26) We want a black and white pathway towards enlightenment and towards knowing all things. And I think part of maturing is recognizing that that doesn't really exist. And also, Rand answers that within her own system of thought when she says, you need to place your mind above all else as the final arbiter of truth. (31:27 - 31:48) And so, if I can take that statement, I can take that idea, then that kind of even puts some of her other ideas into question. And this is how fallibilism can be applied. Because Rand, she is like a giant machete through the jungle of reality. (31:48 - 32:15) Her philosophy is like the sharpest sword possible when it comes to meeting and solving many of the problems that we find ourselves dealing with in everyday reality when it comes to meeting our goals, stepping into heroism, developing courage, having clarity of thoughts, being able to move through certain contradictions. And then, I love that. And I can hold that. (32:16 - 32:31) And that's super precious to me. Then at the same time, I've had personal direct experience with intuition, proof in the pudding time and time again, when I pull tarot cards for myself or for other people. And it's so freaking spot on to everything that we just discussed. (32:32 - 32:54) It's like mind-blowing beyond belief. I've had experiences even with the recent birth experience with Tieta and Alyssa being visited by this spirit baby that wanted to come through. If I just completely bought the dogma of objectivism, then I'd miss out on so much beauty. (32:55 - 33:09) And I think this goes for everything. Yeah, I agree. And also, just even the things that this stimulated within us, like getting to Rand, seeing how maybe dogmatic in some ways that things can be. (33:10 - 33:22) We would have these conversations because we have our group coaching program, Rise Above the Herd, and Rand has had an influence there. And yet, at the same time, I'm a student of human design. I'm someone who has been sharing that information for a while. (33:23 - 33:43) And so, in human design, they have a different view of the mind. And so, even like reason, I feel like you and I, we came to this more expansive definition of the word reason. But even Rand, Rand's definition is, reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses. (33:44 - 33:50) Anyone that's into somatic work talks about the felt sense. There's a felt sense. There's something within us. (33:50 - 34:10) So, even in human design, where your inner authority is not the mind, it is much more somatic, whether it's emotional clarity, whether it's sacral, whether it's splenic, there is a felt sense. So, all that fuels your reason, or feeds your reason. All that expands your self-knowledge that allows you to make decisions. (34:11 - 34:26) And so, even within that, you can bring more nuance to the understanding of decision-making, the understanding of reason. It doesn't have to just be like a lot of people think of reason as this cold, hard, logical calculation. Purely cerebral. (34:27 - 34:46) Yeah, purely cerebral, where it's not. Like, we have many senses where you could even, a lot of people even talk about the intuitive sense, you know? So, I think what this highlights is that we have no idea what we don't know. Like, we're constantly being faced with things that blow our minds. (34:46 - 34:55) I mean, even just look at the telepathy tapes, for example. I mean, we raised that in the podcast with Yaron. I raised it, like, the telepathy tapes. (34:55 - 35:18) And he said, I have to remain skeptical to that, like, there's no choice. And the conversation kind of moved on. But I wanted to raise to him, if it was proven to be undeniably true that there's autistic, nonverbal children that can read minds, how would this impact you? And I'm very curious as to how he would have responded to that question, you know? Because that would bring down, that would shatter. (35:18 - 35:32) That would shatter a world of you that you've committed to for, like, 20, 30 plus years. Yeah. Again, like, even for me, like, being as open to things that I've been open to, like, listening to that podcast. (35:33 - 35:53) And I always remain the skeptic. I'm like, huh, what's going on? What's the mechanisms? But to have people that are part of this project, cinematographers that are, like, straight up like atheists who don't believe this, seeing this with their own eyes. And you go, man, what is this? What is consciousness? What is being a human being? Like, what is the way we communicate? Like, there is so much mystery. (35:55 - 36:09) And that, I guess you can say that's one of the blind spots of, you know, Rand and Objective Thinking is, like, the kind of dismissal of the mystery. Yeah. Everything can be known. (36:10 - 36:24) And I think if you look at, like, a coin, it's like one side of the coin is like, oh, shit, yeah. We can use our mental capacities to know a lot. And on the flip side is there is so much freaking mystery. (36:25 - 36:46) And can you, as the individual, hold that coin within yourself and go, yeah, I can know things. And how beautiful and how awesome is the mystery? And live your life from a much more balanced place as opposed to a more rigid, dogmatic place where only one side of the coin has value. Yeah. (36:46 - 36:55) The other side is pure nonsense. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, you know, a big aspect of Rand's teaching is, like, rational thought. (36:55 - 37:22) And for me, in my personal experience, it is irrational to include my intuition in my reasoning. It is irrational to pay attention to what's coming out from the subconscious and the unconscious. Like, these things that would be considered irrational, probably an objective of thought, to me, actually fall under rationality because they've proven to provide value to me time and time again. (37:22 - 37:42) And again, being in awe of the mystery and allowing the mystery to penetrate me and to color my world, penetrate me, is rational to me. Yeah, I missed that when you said that. I mean, this is just bringing up thoughts into my personal life, but also just in general. (37:42 - 37:56) Like, there's so many people that, like, out there in the world that are, like, doing lovely, amazing things. Like, supporting, you know, inner city youth or creating amazing art or, you know, music or whatever the case may be. Yeah. (37:56 - 38:31) That think completely different than I do when it comes to health and healing and what true medicine is. And it's like, am I gonna just, like, never look at that art? Am I going to never listen to that music? Am I never gonna support someone that really wants to support, like, the youth and the programs and the companies and the organizations that they're creating because I don't see 100% eye to eye to them on certain things? Like, everyone has their role to play in this world. I can't do everything. (38:31 - 38:47) Other people can't do everything, you know? And so, it's like, we just, we miss out on some of the gold and some of the sweetness and some of the joy and some of the kindness of life and the connections in life when we're rigid within ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. (38:48 - 38:54) And again, I don't say all this to say you have to be open to everyone. You have to be friends with everyone. You have to accept people. (38:54 - 39:02) Like, you don't. Like, I am very clear on certain boundaries in my life and there's still openness there. Yeah. (39:03 - 39:16) Yeah, for sure. I've got a tweet which I recirculate every now and then that says, you know, society demands every kind of diversity possible except for diversity of thought. Mm-hmm. (39:17 - 39:31) Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that aligns with, I mean, sure, maybe more so we can talk about how the state of the left right now, but it's the same thing. It's the same thing with the right. It's the same thing with the right, you know? It's the same thing like many different, like, ideologies where people go, this is it. (39:32 - 39:55) Yeah. And I mean, we've been programmed in so many ways to just think in binaries about everything, right, wrong, black, white, left, right, you know, whatever it might be. And I think we need to kind of question that kind of imprint that we have, you know, and kind of work to actually shatter that because there's so much spectrum. (39:55 - 40:03) There's so many degrees. There's so much color. There's so much nuance to every single topic. (40:04 - 40:21) Yeah, this is Joel's way of outing himself that he's now identifying as non-binary because he's not into the binaries. No, but even in that, I know I make a joke, but even with that, it's like, man, you get into like the GNM viewpoint and constellations and identity and things like that. Like, you know, things aren't as black and white. (40:21 - 40:43) There are people out there that were maybe born male, but don't feel that and feel that they're trapped in another body. Now, we can say that's quote unquote mental illness or whatever, but like the reality is people like this exist. Now, of course, I have very strong views around what is exposed and shared with children in terms of like knowledge and information. (40:43 - 40:58) That's where I draw a hard line. But like when you get into the adult population, there are people that are choosing to live in a certain way. I'm not like automatically like, I hate you because you adopt this worldview and you identify as trans or whatever. (40:58 - 41:09) Man, the world is way more nuanced and it isn't as black and white. Yeah, I think adults should be able to choose whatever the fuck they want. Yeah, I agree. (41:09 - 41:29) It's consensual and they're adults and they're not doing harm to others and live your life. But yes, I get it. Things get tricky when we start legislating on it and mandating and like everyone needs to in a certain way and children need to learn this stuff. (41:29 - 41:50) Fuck that. Yeah, I hear you. Well, I'm glad we were able to kind of address this and kind of use it as a vessel to share deeper thoughts on how we can all develop more nuance and more intellectual dynamism, which I think is really important. (41:51 - 42:21) And it's kind of our intention here also to continue to bring more conversations to the table, bring more points of view to the table. It's many individuals and many future potential guests, which I think have incredible gold to offer. And just because they might not completely agree on every single political or health viewpoint that we have, it doesn't mean that we're going to dismiss what amazing value there is to be offered. (42:21 - 42:47) Because I don't want to be stuck in an echo chamber. I don't want to lead our audience into an echo chamber either. And I think it's worthwhile for us all to be exposed to more circumstances, more data, more content, where we can kind of challenge ourselves to expand and to grow and to do this dance that is this dance of consciousness that we find ourselves all immersed in. (42:49 - 43:14) Yeah, well said, man. And I echo what you said. And I think the goal, for me at least, and something that I wish upon everyone that's in our world and our community is to continue to strive for more intellectual maturity, emotional maturity, making inner work a focus, doing the necessary emotional nervous system work to build even capacity. (43:15 - 43:44) I mean, this is where, again, I know we pay lip service to the nervous system, but that impacts your relationships, that impacts how you take in information. Do you have capacity to be uncomfortable? Can you stay uncomfortable? Can you stay in the discomfort without jumping to conclusions and reactivity, like telling someone to go fuck themselves or slamming your computer down or unfollowing someone or telling them that they're insane because they don't agree with you on a single issue? Yeah. And that's our work to do. (43:44 - 43:53) And I want to continue to get better at it. I'm not always perfect. And I know I can be dismissive at some time, but I want to grow. (43:53 - 43:55) I want to grow. I want to learn. I want to be more whole. (43:56 - 44:18) I want to be more integrated. And I'm excited to see how things unfold because real change isn't going to happen with people just staying in those echo chambers. There needs to be some level of cross-pollination and curiosity and healthy disagreements and conflict and challenges, especially when people are open, that are going to move the needle forward. (44:19 - 44:24) Yeah. Absolutely, man. All that being said, guys, really appreciate you. (44:25 - 44:57) I'm really excited to continue to grow with you and to continue to record and share more episodes and bring more amazing conversations to the table. And I'm sure you guys have obviously heard us talk about this a number of times, but this is the final time that we're offering our 10-week group coaching program, Rise Above the Herd, which currently is open for enrollments. At the time of recording this, there's four, maybe only three spots left up for grabs in terms of the 10 spots that we do have available for Rise Above the Herd. (44:58 - 45:37) And so if you're down to go on a journey to expand on a conscious level to become more psychological whole, to do the deep somatic nervous system work as well, to bring you forth and to build capacity in that arena, then the proof is in the pudding with the 120 past graduates that this is an incredibly holistic, transformative program. So if you're down to claim one of the final spots, you can head to hereforthetruth.com forward slash Rath, R-A-T-H. And from there, you can either schedule a free discovery call with us, and yes, you'll end up on a 20-minute conversation with us, or you can just enroll and claim your spot. (45:38 - 45:44) Thanks for listening and take care. Take care, everybody. Thanks for tuning in, guys. (45:44 - 45:57) Before you go, if you've been resonating with these conversations about authenticity, purpose, and breaking free from what holds you back, we've created something for you. The Real AF Test. It'll take about three to five minutes to complete. (45:57 - 46:15) No fluff, just the truth about where you really stand. Are you real AF or not? You can take the test at hereforthetruth.com. There's also a link in the brief below. And once you complete it, you'll receive our guide, the 10 Commandments of Being Real AF, along with insights to help you break free from what's holding you back. (46:16 - 46:18) Until next time, thanks for being here for the truth.