Kristen Nagle Reclaiming Birth: a Former NICU Nurse's Reckoning

[Joel] (0:06 - 0:37) All right, Kristen Nagel is a former nurse carving a new path forward in motherhood through homeschooling, holistic health, and a foundation in faith. She helps mamas become warriors that stand steadfast in their convictions to raise strong, healthy and free children from birth and beyond. Her mission is to help people remove fear of illness, symptoms, and the unknown, to honor, trust, and cherish their wonderfully divinely created bodies. Kristen, welcome to Here for the Truth. [Kristen] (0:38 - 0:39) Thank you for having me [Joel] (0:40 - 1:03) So good to have you. So good to have you. One way we always like to kick off these conversations, especially with first time guests, is we really want to explore your personal hero's journey a little bit. So some of the major rites of passage, the key catalyzing moments of transformation that you feel like really led you down the path you're on today and wherever you feel called to begin that journey and that story is great for us. [Kristen] (1:04 - 3:41) Yeah. Yeah. I'll try and see how to keep it condensed in the, you know, the Coles Notes version, but it really started in 2015 for me. Up until that point, I was, you know, your typical indoctrinated nurse. I really believed in what I was taught and, you know, the work I was doing. But as most, you know, when we become parents for the first time, sometimes that opens a whole door that we didn't expect. And I, my first son was the one that started me on this whole journey. Now, as a neonatal intensive care nurse, I thought birth was dangerous. I feared it. Thank goodness for the medical system. I actually thought home birth should be illegal. So I handed over all responsibility of my body. I was like, of course I know what birth is. I'm going to go to the hospital. They'll tell me what to do. You know, then a baby is born. I spent more time investing in his nursery than I did learning about anything else because I thought I knew. But so I, that's a whole other story we'll get into later with his birth. But my journey after he was born, it was this divine calling. I think now looking back was this voice, like, look into what you're going to feed him. What are his first foods going to be like? What is going to set his foundation as, you know, baby's first foods? And I was like, I'm a nurse. I know what to feed my baby. It's okay. But it kept getting louder. And I was like, okay, fine. I'll look into it. And that's when this kind of aha moment started for me. I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know anything about food, the corruption around it, the lies we've been told, what to feed our babies. And I became really obsessed documentary after documentary books and diving deeper to the point I went back to school to become a holistic nutritionist. And that's when everything really clicked because I was like, wow, health is so simple. Like why don't we learn this in nursing? Why aren't we doing this in the hospital? Why aren't we teaching people about actual health? And I was like, well, we're easier to be controlled when we are victims and we hand over responsibility and they tell us what to do. And so after becoming a holistic nutritionist, that's when I could not unsee what was happening in the hospital anymore. And from there, I learned about injections, childhood immunizations, the harms they were causing. And my second son was born in 2018. And this is when I said no to still hospital birth. That came later. But I said no to all injections. Like I was like, no, he's perfect just the way he is. And as he grew, I just kept thinking like you were so perfect, like you're thriving. You don't need anything outside of how you're created, outside of how my body can nourish you. What a lie we've been told as parents. And I started to speak out pretty boldly then. And that's when I started to get in trouble as a nurse around 2018, 2019. And things kind of continued to go from there. So I don't know if you want me to continue the story or. [Yerasimos] (3:41 - 4:02) Let's keep going. But also like I'm always curious about what's that process like internally? Like you have these multiple aha moments. It probably doesn't happen just like, oh, you just read one book. It's this journey. And you're like, you're like grappling with different parts of you. And then then you're still in the system. And then you're having these conversations with your fellow nurses and doctors. And you're just like, well, what is happening? So I'm curious about that whole. [Joel] (4:03 - 4:08) Yeah. And like, feel free to give us the details. Give us the stories like this is the crux of the podcast right here. [Kristen] (4:09 - 6:35) OK, perfect. Yeah, it was wild with my colleagues. So as I became a holistic nutritionist, they were so open to hearing about food. They wanted to know, you know, what they could do, how to eat better, how they could help with this symptom, what they could do with this and lifestyle. So they wanted to know everything I was learning. But as I continued learning and learning about plant medicine, natural remedies and again, the childhood immunizations, injections, that's when it stopped. They didn't want to hear anymore. They that that line, they were not crossing. They were not going to entertain. They were not going to be curious. It was like that's when I went too far and was kind of this crazy nurse. And and so you're right. Like when I was in there, I was like, but how do they not want to know? Like, how do they not want to see this? And it was conflicting for me and a little bit confusing because I'm like, well, I learned this, but this is what I'm seeing. And when we go through life, right, when we start learning other things, the veils start coming off and you see things like that movie, you know, when he wears the glasses and everything is like, yeah. So I started to see things in my unit differently. I was actually now witnessing the harms of injections firsthand. So we have our twenty three weekers and at 60 days of life, they're still not full term. But because they've been outside of the womb for 60 days, they're given their two month shots. And these babies have been thriving. They're getting bigger, closer to getting home. And then we give them their two month shots and they regress completely. You know, heart stops beating. They stop breathing. Apnea, as Brady does and needing invasive breathing support sometimes. So sometimes they go back needing mechanical ventilation again or a CPAP. And and I was like, should we should be looking at this? And I started questioning it, but they would just pass it off as a normal side effect. So at the bedside report, it was know that they had their shots today. So we're expecting a lot more spells. That's what we would call them. And, you know, that's just normal. But it was fascinating because if we gave our babies blood, we're sitting at their bedside, charting their vitals every 15 minutes to make sure there's no change. And if there's a slight change in their their heart rate, in their blood pressure, we have to stop the blood product immediately and reassess. However, when it comes to injections, they can stop breathing. Their heart stops. They go on mechanical ventilation. But that's a that's a normal, normal. Yeah. [Yerasimos] (6:35 - 6:52) Like what? Like, what is that? Like, is it just because for decades it's just been indoctrinated in the nurse, in nursing school and medical school that like, OK, for blood, it's one way. But then like for vaccines, it's just it's severe cognitive dissonance. [Kristen] (6:52 - 8:04) It absolutely is, because we would do this with any medication. Right. You have a rash from a penicillin type drug. And it's like, OK, you can never have a penicillin drug ever again from a rash. Right. Like it's charted everywhere. But your heart stops beating. But, you know, that that's OK. I don't they've this is when the red flags really started to pop. They should have been before. But these are red flags. I'm like, oh, my gosh, like we can't even question this. You're not even open to hearing another side. It's normal for us to have these precautions in place for everything else. But when it comes to vaccines, it's like you cannot question it. And it is it's the brainwashing. It's the indoctrination in nursing school. We're not really taught about the childhood illnesses, about really anything, like what they're for. You get the names, you get like this is what happens if you get this illness, you know, you'll you'll basically die is what they tell you. And it's like, here's the schedule of injections, you know, go at it. Whereas every other drug, we like huge books on pharmacology that we have to memorize. But it is it is just pure brainwashing. And when you're able to step back, it's like, well, because there's so much money in that. [Joel] (8:05 - 8:05) Yeah. [Kristen] (8:05 - 8:06) To silence us. [Joel] (8:07 - 9:02) I got to say, like, I think nurses even more so than doctors just have this deep indoctrination and this level of arrogance where it's like, I know, I know things like the majority of nurses that I dealt with is just this like disdain that comes against you when you when you question things like I remember, you know, our first birth in 2018, my wife labored at home for an extended period of time. Then we had to transfer to hospital because she was like crowning for like five, six, seven hours. And like the nurses couldn't stand that she even attempted a home birth, you know, and there was just this level of, oh, one of these, you know. And then I think, you know, eventually when my wife had to get a small procedure to get the baby out, like they cut her more than they needed to because there was this kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Involved in it. And like, yeah, I just want to comment that I found that in nurses in particular, just in the ones that I found myself having dealt with. [Kristen] (9:03 - 10:29) And it's really sad and really true. And I can say that because I used to be one of them. Like, I remember like meeting a friend and she was making different decisions for her children about vaccines. And this is when I was still not there yet. I was like, oh, my gosh, like, I don't know if I can be friends with an anti-vaxxer. And, you know, like I was rooted in these beliefs that were ingrained and brainwashed into me. And we do like just when people would be sharing their home birth stories to me. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you're so stupid. That's so reckless. Like you're putting your baby at at risk and especially labor and delivery and NICU nurses. We it's such a toxic environment. If anybody does choose anything outside of the hospital because we believe birth is dangerous. Thank goodness. Like the medical systems here and any other choice outside of that, you're putting your child at risk. But no one talks about the risks that are inside the hospital. And there's more. And the interventions that we would then cause into emergencies that, you know, we'd have to save them from from the interventions that we were causing. And I think it goes back to what you mentioned. It's for me, it's that cognitive dissonance. Right. Because if you actually allow yourself to see what's happening, then you have to see what you were a part of. Like I had to reconcile, you know, that I gave these injections to the the most vulnerable to these babies. I had to reconcile some of the advice I gave, you know, parents and mothers around me or even friends. I had to reconcile my part in this as a nurse and what I believe to be true. [Speaker 4] (10:29 - 10:30) Yeah. [Kristen] (10:30 - 10:38) And that that betrayal and what that does is is really difficult. But I think a lot of people don't want to take responsibility for. [Yerasimos] (10:39 - 11:39) Yeah, there needs to be. I would say just the psychoemotional fortitude that is required for an individual to do what you did in your position. And when you think about being a whistleblower, like a lot of people don't do it because they just they don't have that psychoemotional fortitude, whether that's something deeper within their soul. I don't know. And, you know, but my question is this, is that because I think for many of us that spoke out or have been speaking out for a really long time, you sometimes get those messages from people that like align with you, but like they're not out there on the front lines or they're not speaking out. So I'm curious, as you started speaking out more, especially once you get into the like the quote unquote covid years, like, are there any nurses that maybe have like realized certain things and they've reached out to you? Like, I'm curious what that process has been like for you, or is it just kind of like, no, the people that you've known, the people that you've worked with, they're just in the past and they still look at you as some crazy anti-vaxxer doesn't know what she's talking about. [Kristen] (11:40 - 12:28) There's definitely a mix. And that kind of, I guess, like is a good segue. I can kind of continue the story and what that looks like. But there there are some that still are very much, I guess you could say, like repulsed by the work I do, like just think, you know, I'm, you know, killing babies, harming babies. You know, you know, I've been said, you know, blood on my hands, all the things like there's people that still very much are putting their stake in and believing it. And others that, you know, are are seeing and coming around. And it just yeah, they're they're the ones that kind of like through 2020 really saw and, you know, came around. But it's it's fascinating to me to think of everything that happened and just, you know, wanting to double down on the beliefs. Yeah, I don't know what that is. [Yerasimos] (12:28 - 12:49) What's it been like for your family? Because, you know, obviously, like not everyone in families agrees and everything. And you like went to nursing school and you're this working nurse and you're doing great things. And then all of a sudden your views start shifting. So how does that relate? Like your parents or siblings or cousins or aunts and uncles? Like I'm always just fascinated by the interrelational dynamics around this stuff. [Kristen] (12:50 - 17:36) Yeah, well, so to kind of continue on, because this will answer the question and everything and bring it all together. So yeah, my second son born in 2018, still in the hospital. But this is when I really started to speak out about childhood immunizations and the harms of what I was seeing. And colleagues were reporting me to my College of Nurses, my regulatory body. I was getting, you know, complaints from social media posts and all these things. And I was brought into disciplinary hearing by my College of Nurses. So my license was at risk. And at this time, you know, I had a new baby, two children. I wasn't in a place where I felt comfortable losing my license or jeopardizing my job, even though it no longer aligned with me. It was still that, you know, it's hard to let go of the steady paycheck of what we've been taught. And so it was about 2019. I took the slap on the wrist. I said, you know, you're right, I'm wrong. I won't do it again. I'll stop posting on social media. But I walked out of there saying, but if they ever come after my children and try to mandate anything, there's nothing that's going to stop me from speaking out. And it's so interesting what I think about all this, because that was February 2019. And I didn't, I didn't expect like 2020 to come like so soon later. And I knew exactly what was happening when they started promoting it, you know, move on right before. And I was like, oh, this is going to lead into this. Like, this is not going to be good. So I was speaking out around that early. And my family, like my husband was so great because he just, he saw, he saw the difference between, you know, our first son, our second son, all the things I was learning. Thank goodness in our home, it was gradual. But come March, when the world shut down, I was, you know, my family looked at me as like nuts. Like we had to kind of just not talk about that. Like it was just, you know, I love you. I accept you into our home, but we're just not going to talk about that. And I was like, okay, fine. You know, like, I'll just keep doing what I was doing. But things just got louder, as you know, and I couldn't sit back and allow things to kind of just keep going. I was seeing too much harm in the hospital. I was seeing the lies. I was seeing what we're doing to our neonatal babies. Like it was, we were isolating them so much. And families, like it was really sad. You hear so much what was going on with like the elderly or, you know, in other areas of nursing. But when it came to the intensive care units, neonatal, only one parent was allowed at the bedside. So you have your micro-PREM, a 23-weeker, and one parent could be there at a time. And so you're trying to grieve your baby, support your baby, taking all this information, and you are alone with no support. You're not even allowed to see your other children, like completely isolating in that traumatic experience. Then if mother had to have a c-section, men were not allowed, their partners were not allowed in the OR, even though there's like eight, nine other staff in there that, you know, the one father is not allowed to be there. So she's doing this alone. If she had to go under general anesthetic, both parents missed the birth of their baby, you know, and then as nurses, normally we would be there ready to receive the babies from a c-section and bundle them and bring them to mom. We weren't allowed to go in the OR. So what they did was take these babies, place them in a cot and literally push them out the door to us. And I was like, how, like, how is this okay? Like there was so much more that was going on, but there just came so much where I couldn't stay quiet. It hurt more to stay quiet. Like I was sitting by myself in the unit. No one wanted to talk to me because I was not following the rules outside of work. You know, I was breathing normally. I was hanging out with people coming into work. I did all the things we were supposed to, but everyone was scared of me. Everyone was scared that I would put my goggles on top of my head. So many reports about me. I ended up hosting a freedom rally in my hometown of London, Ontario, and I was prepared to lose my job, prepared for all that would come. What I was not prepared for was the media. And I was slandered all over the news. LHSC nurse in hot water for putting premature babies in danger. And you can just imagine like how that article like portrayed me and the hate that the community poured in. The phone calls that went to my unit. Just they wanted lawsuits. They wanted all of this. And to come back to your question about family, well, having my name in the news publicly put a massive divide in what was happening. Like, how could you do this to us? How could you, you know, put yourself out there? Like, how could you ruin your life? Like, how could like all the things? And I was, that was a really dark, broken. Yeah, that part, that was really hard. [Joel] (17:37 - 17:58) Yeah. I want to backtrack a little bit. What was the personal reckoning like within you when you came to terms with these, the things that was unwittingly participating in, you know, within these systems? When you think about, you know, vaccinations, you know, the way you were handling premature babies, whatever it was like, what was that internal process like? Where it's like, oh, fuck. [Kristen] (18:00 - 18:53) Yeah, it was really hard. I still get emotional when I think about it. I think, I think that's why I have such a fire for what I'm doing now because I've seen it. I was a part of it. I believed in it even at one point. And so being in that, I think reconciling is, well, how can I make a difference? Well, I can help one. I can help at least one other. I can help this family. I can help this baby. And I feel like because of my position where I was, it's my responsibility now to kind of keep speaking out and helping where I can. So that's been, I guess, my process of why I keep doing the work that I'm doing. Because yeah, it's, there's been a lot of tears over that. But knowing that I did the best I could with what I knew to be true at the time. And when you know better, you do better. And that's it. Just keep moving forward and helping those that I can now. [Joel] (18:54 - 19:03) Yeah, because my next question was like, so when did this really feel like a calling to you? Like, yes, it was born out of that experience, obviously, right? [Kristen] (19:04 - 21:27) Yeah, it was throughout 2020. Because after that whole mess with the media, I just, I remember exactly where I was. I got a letter from, I got like 600 pages that I got to read from my College of Nurses of all disclosure of letters and reports about me. I got to see what businesses complained about me, local businesses I used to support, colleagues, other people in the community. And I got one from a close family member that decided to leave their name on there so I could see it, you know, her license should be revoked and terminated immediately at the end of this three page letter. And I remember just never experiencing betrayal and heartbreak like that ever in my life. And I was broken. I still remember just exactly where I was and what was happening. But it was kind of that come to faith moment for me. I was starting to kind of question faith and where I was throughout all of this. But in that moment, I just fell on my knees and was like, and now what? Like, what am I supposed to do now? And this is the moment where it was like, well, you keep going because otherwise all of this will be for nothing. So that was the moment it became a calling because I'm like, if you stop now, it'll just all be for nothing. So you stand back up and you keep going. And I did. And I found a few other nurses speaking out in the States. We joined arms, we linked arms. We ended up coming together and forming what was short-lived but powerful at the time, Global Frontline Nurses. We went to Washington, D.C. on January 6th. Naive little Canadian, had no idea what that day was about. Don't follow politics. And went there to speak on a health and freedom stage that Dell Big Tree and the High Wire was a part of. And we were so proud of coming together and standing up and speaking. And we just thought, you know, all of us, how can they ignore Canada, U.S., coming from all over, like sharing what we're seeing in the hospital, how can it be ignored? Thought it was gonna have like epic proportions of waking people up. And as soon as we came back to Canada, we are deemed domestic terrorists that stormed and rioted the Capitol. I had the equivalent of the FBI at my house, the RCMP questioning my, you know, position in all of that. And immediately, I was already suspended at this point from work for hosting that Freedom Rally. But this was, I was internationally, publicly terminated after that. And yeah. [Yerasimos] (21:27 - 21:27) Congratulations. [Kristen] (21:29 - 21:33) Yes, yes. I ended up on the U.S. watch list. I thought that was something to be proud of. [Yerasimos] (21:34 - 21:45) Yeah, I actually remember coming across you, your name and your work like early on. So yeah, it was obviously great to finally meet you last year at one of your conferences and have this conversation with you. [Kristen] (21:45 - 21:48) Yeah, I'm so grateful too, to be here now. [Joel] (21:49 - 22:15) Yeah, yeah. So I wanna ask you, because like sometimes it feels like I can be stuck in an echo chamber. And so like all the things that I get fed via social media that I'm observing, it feels like we're moving in the right directory when it comes to awareness around these topics. But I wanna get your pulse on the situation. Are we actually growing in awareness when it comes to vaccinations, immunizations, you know, hospitalized, medicalized births, things of this nature? [Kristen] (22:17 - 23:21) Yes and no. And I say no, just because it's not moving as fast as I'd like. But I do believe there's been a lot more questioning. You can see it in the news. I don't know if you guys have been seeing the headlines around vitamin K lately. There's this huge media campaign about parents are saying no to vitamin K and babies are ending up with more bleeding and trying to get that fear, right? We've seen this pattern before where they create these stories, promote fear to get people to submit back into the system. So when I see headlines like that, it makes me think that yes, more people are making more informed, aware decisions and more people are starting to, you know, learn this for their children. And it said in one of the articles I was just reading a couple of days ago that came out and it's saying, you know, refusing vitamin K usually leads to refusing others. So, and there's been a huge decline in childhood immunization since 2020. So I do think we are getting somewhere. We are moving in the right direction. I just like to see it faster. [Yerasimos] (23:21 - 25:15) Yeah, I agree. I mean, I just think change doesn't happen as quickly as we'd like to. And, you know, there's this part of me that's so grateful for the events of 2020 because I feel like there's been this exponential shift because like, you know, I remember I grew up in New Jersey and I remember like 2018, 2019, like the stuff that was happening around vaccination. Then I would have, I probably could have never imagined that like the national conversation at some point, more and more people would be talking about vaccines. You know, if we go, if we think about 10 years ago and to where we are now, like it's pretty wild to think. And the level of propaganda is so much more overt. Like if I just go through Facebook, you know with Facebook now, you're not just seeing like the people you're connected to. It's just constant things, recommendations and these like articles that just seem like they're satirical. They're the most ridiculous things that just, it's obvious to me that this is just trying to instill fear in people. But the one thing I do appreciate is I'm noticing more and more now on these articles that are coming from, let's say a little bit more mainstream publications there are a lot more laughing emojis than there were years ago. There are a lot of people that just aren't falling for this. Now maybe their views and other stuff related to health aren't exactly the same. But in terms of like distrust in the media, distrust in government, distrust in these established institutions, I think people are like, yeah, something's been off and we're not having any of it. Now, of course, it's not a huge percentage of the population, but I'm definitely seeing it grow, especially with people that maybe I would think were more mainstream. When I have conversations with them occasionally, and again, my network isn't filled with too many people like that. But when I do, there is still this, a little bit more of this agreement of like, yeah, I just, I don't know if I could trust the government, just across the board. So I'm excited to see that. And we'll see how things continue to unfold. [Kristen] (25:16 - 25:32) Absolutely. I think there's a lot more questions coming out, especially just with what governments are doing. They're making it very easy for people to question and that the overreach has been too much. And so I think if they can start questioning that, then they can start coming around to other things. [Yerasimos] (25:33 - 25:51) And the recent like fear with Hantavirus, you know, like that was just one thing. And I feel like, like, what's, wait, where'd that go? And then Ebola, Ebola's, and where'd that go? Like, I just feel like things aren't sticking, like maybe they would have in the past. At least that's my perception. I'm not like on the interwebs all the time, but the little that I am, I'm seeing this stuff. [Kristen] (25:52 - 25:56) Yes, I think they should have been a little bit more creative than trying to start with a cruise ship again. [Yerasimos] (25:57 - 25:58) Yeah, right. [Kristen] (25:59 - 26:02) Like we've seen this story. We're not participating in this one. [Joel] (26:03 - 26:13) Are you feeling like hopeful, even like a general like policy front, like with the new vaccine schedule, like it is a reduction, it is a step in the right direction. I just wanna get thoughts on that from you. [Kristen] (26:16 - 27:22) I don't know. I know there was like a big push in that, like, yes, like we're winning. And maybe a little bit, but we're still kind of accepting that there's still a schedule, that these are still necessary, that they're still there. So I don't know if I quite see that is a win in the reduction of the schedule. It's like when people would choose delayed. Like, what does that mean? You're just delaying the poison. It means that there's something there, like you're questioning it. So let's take it a little bit further. I just never like when we put trust into government policies, when we rely on them to kind of make the changes for us. And then that's what we have to celebrate. I just think that if enough of us, take a stand and say no, and we're just choosing life differently outside of that without meeting the regulations. I think that's where the true change comes from is from the grassroots. So I don't know. I don't get too excited about government policies. I'd rather see it from a grassroots movement or just like moving away from it. And that's a lot quieter. And you won't hear that. [Yerasimos] (27:23 - 27:32) Yeah. Okay. So what unfolded after, let's say as you started getting into COVID and the things after that, like what happened for you and your life and your mission? [Kristen] (27:33 - 31:56) Yeah, it was really interesting after like the international termination that kind of woke up my family closer to me because they're like, well, I know what you did. I know what you were there. Like what they're saying on the news is not true. And if they're lying about that, what else could they be lying about? So that was kind of the interesting unfolding of coming around with that. So that was really nice kind of coming together. But from there, we ended up forming Canadian Frontline Nurses. We went around Canada, speaking out, like literally drove across the country and back and wherever we could to try to bring awareness, bring people together, get people out of fear, getting people to gather and connect and create communities. And so we did that for almost three years. And the convoy, I guess, was kind of the last piece of that for me. So our Canadian convoy, I was there for four weeks, took an epic stand filming. Everything was face-to-face with the officers at that time as they violently removed us all. And I remember at that point, I was like, okay, we did what we needed to do. We stood, we were here, we did it peacefully. We didn't allow them to push us into violence or push us into doing anything. We came together as community. Every time they tried to control us or put in a rule that would scare us and leave, we found a way to get over it. Like, for example, they wanted to arrest anyone that was bringing fuel to the trucks. So it's like, okay, well, if every single person is carrying around a jerrycan, you can't arrest everybody. And so that's what everyone started to do, became this whole kind of infamous thing where everyone was carrying around jerrycans, even clean ones pretending to drink out of them. Like they were filling them up with like water. It was kind of funny. But I just was like, look what we can do when we come together as community. We can find solutions. We're not afraid. Look at all this love and hope that we have. Look how it doesn't matter what other people believe in. Look at this commonality that brings us together despite our differences. Look what we're able to achieve. So for me, after the convoy, I thought it was a huge blessing and such a victory, even though how it ended, because it gave us the tools of what we needed to continue to make change. And at that point, I was like, I don't want to fight for freedom anymore. We need to create it. And why are we fighting against these systems that we don't want to be a part of anyways? Why are we asking for permission? We're already free. And so at that point was when I kind of, I stepped away from, you know, the fight. It was like, it's time to create something else. And for me, it was always about the children. So what can we do? How can we help them? And I was blessed to become pregnant again. And this one, I was like, okay, we're doing this one totally different. It was like this full circle for me coming together. She was out of the system. Not one single test. You know, I was in my geriatric pregnancy era, is what they would call it, right? And so as I'm creating life, creating solutions, I got to experience what that whole surrender and trust felt like. And she was born at home with a traditional birth companion. And it was the hardest, most incredible thing I'd ever really gone through with my body that I didn't even know I was capable of. And I remember thinking, I can't believe I was almost robbed of this experience. I can't believe I didn't know. And how many other women don't know? How many other women don't know this is possible and what we can do? And even just when she was born, I was gifted what they call the hot minute to look at her, quiet, no one talking, no one doing anything. And just saying, you know, we did it. Like we did that like together. And it makes me so emotional to think of that experience that I had. Looking at the hospitals and how quick they are to rub and get in there and take away that moment from mom and baby. And so that's when it became, this is what we have to do. This is where I need to kind of create the change. And it's reclaiming birth and helping people realize like how amazing our bodies are, understanding physiological birth, understanding, you know, removing fear and restoring the trust. Because if we can create this foundation at birth, well then we lead our families differently. We come together differently. We make different decisions for our children. We don't want to outsource to any systems. We become our own experts. And then these are the next generations we're raising. These next kids. It's not really about us right now. It's who are we raising to continue this in the world that we want to see. And so that's kind of how I transitioned into the work now. [Yerasimos] (31:57 - 31:59) What year was that when you had your last child? [Kristen] (31:59 - 32:01) 2023. Okay. [Joel] (32:01 - 32:35) Yeah. You didn't dive into your first birth story, but like, do you feel like what that does for you to have that experience that you had with the third child? It's like, how do you explain that to a mother that isn't even attempting that journey and only knows the traditional path? Like there's a deep spiritual component of motherhood that someone is never really going to attain or experience like without that kind of level of intentional birth, right? [Kristen] (32:36 - 34:11) Yeah. And this is why it's like, so like, on my heart to get this out because I almost missed out on that. You know, here I was someone who thought home birth should be illegal is what I'm telling people. And it is something, it is a rite of passage into childbirth, into motherhood, into, you know, how we care for a child. But we don't even think about the impact it has on that baby. To enter the world gently, to come into the, have the natural hormones. So they are ready to enter the world as well. Like they're more alert, they're clear. You know, it's, and of course, everyone has their own journey. Sometimes I always feel like the disclaimer, you know, sometimes there are like the needs for the medical system or a transfer or everything happens. And of course, that's when it's there, when it's needed, it's a blessing. But if we can start at the beginning and bring it back to how we're designed, it, my first son, I didn't know anything. I was like, this is when I was fully into the system, did every single test they told me to. I remember he had an echogenic mark on his heart. So then I'm like worried, you know, from the ultrasound it showed up. Now we had to go for extra testing. Oh my gosh, what if something's wrong with his heart? No, it's just an artifact. Whew, like that stress of that. Then, you know, the gestational diabetes, the drink, oh my gosh, like, is that going to come back? Okay, like, I don't think we realize, how much fear, like the worry that comes in when we outsource our bodies throughout these tests. Then it was, okay, well, now I'm GBS positive. Now I'm going to need antibiotics when I go into the hospital. Oh my gosh, like they don't even tell them. [Yerasimos] (34:12 - 34:59) Yeah, go ahead. All these, no, as you said, there's all these tests and diagnostics. And, you know, obviously, you know, this podcast is an advocate of Dr. Homer's work. And it's like, you know, all these opportunities for just these, like, fear, these conflicts and these shocks. And it's just like, it just goes against what is biological and what has been done historically. And so, I mean, I think our audience understands some of the history with allopathy and we've had conversations. But like, from your point of view, from a birth standpoint, like, when did this shift, like, happen? You know, we talk about Rockefeller Medicine, but like, from a birth standpoint, like, what was it that shifted people to go, oh no, like this thing that we've been doing naturally for thousands of years, you know, let's just give our power away. Let's just go into hospitals. Yeah. [Joel] (34:59 - 35:27) Yeah. I just want to make one comment on, you know, because like all that testing and diagnosis, really what it is, just persistent psychic attacks that actually prevent you from enjoying the experience and having the natural experience that you're meant to have. Because now all of a sudden, your psyche is just so full of all these worries and all these concerns and all these fears, where it's like, am I even like, in this moment being like a pregnant mother that's about to give life, you know, anymore? But yeah, just want to make that comment. [Kristen] (35:27 - 37:53) And yeah, I'll come back to all of it. And that's the part that I realized with my third birth was like, it was the most peaceful, calm, confident pregnancy because I wasn't outsourcing anything. I could come and connect with my baby and it was perfect versus all the worries and all the fears that I don't think women families realize like what that does to your psyche of staying. Like you need to constantly know, well, is everything okay? Well, if we didn't outsource, we would just know, like you just trust. And it doesn't change really the outcome of what's happening. And then it started around the 1900s. It was like the obstetrics, the barber surgeons, they're barbers, they wanted to get in on kind of, you know, how to make some money. They saw the midwives, you know, going to births and, you know, earning and all these things. And they're like, well, how can we bring these, the women into us to see us? How can we earn some money here? And what does this look like? And Rachel Reed wrote the best book on the, her story, her story of like the history of midwifery. It's called the rite of passage of childbirth. And she says it all brilliantly because I'm probably not going to say it perfectly, but it was around that time. And they started to discriminate and discredit midwives, like framing them as like, look, they're disheveled. They don't know what they're doing. And like, we're, you know, polished and, you know, we're educated and come in here to the hospital. And it started almost as like a wealth thing that the upper class came to the hospital and got cared for. And it was like a status thing. And it was really just, how can we make money? And they made midwifery illegal. You know, they kind of banned it and really just made it look like the worst choice and brought everyone kind of over to them. So it started really in the 19, early, early 1900s. And it's just been three generations really of what it's done to wipe us out of this knowing and to kind of creep in the fear and keep people into believing that obstetrics is the way to go. I think of people actually, there's a really great documentary, The Business of Being Born that Rikki Lake did. And it's incredible to kind of show that through, you know, twilight sleep and just the torture and the things that were so horrific that were done to women. And I think sometimes if we kind of realize like where obstetrics came from, maybe we wouldn't trust them as much as we do right now. [Joel] (37:53 - 38:05) It's an incredible documentary. We were very blessed to watch that in 2018 during my wife's first pregnancy, which really just set the tone for like everything that happened since. Like kudos to Rikki Lake for that one, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. [Kristen] (38:05 - 38:06) It was very well done. [Joel] (38:09 - 38:19) I want to, again, sorry to circle back, it's still on my mind. So having the natural birth experience with the third child, like how did you feel that changed you as a mother? [Kristen] (38:20 - 40:38) Oh yeah. Just, I was more protective. I don't know, like the bonding was instant. I just, you know, it was like co-sleeping. It was, you know, like breastfed up until almost three years old. It was, she was just constantly always with me. Like I would never think of like ever separating. Everything I did, she came with me. And it just, you know, I was at this point, like more trusting of everything that, you know, she was going through. I wasn't questioning how much, you know, do I have enough milk? Is there this, like, are you growing? Are you okay? It just was this beautiful trust and bond of just being with her and not allowing anyone else to kind of interfere or give opinions or anything. And I think of my first son and, you know, I feel like even now he's going to be almost 11, like trying to reconcile some of his birth. You know, people don't realize, like it plays into the bonding as parents and even their personality. And I, you know, everything was just test, test, test, induction, you know, the full works of all of it, epidural. And then all of a sudden he was born and he was placed in my chest. And it was just like, oh, you're here. And because everything was so artificial leading into that, you know, there was not one bit natural process. Everything was just synthetic. I didn't have the postpartum natural hormones that were needed to facilitate bonding. We had a horrific breastfeeding experience that we finally figured out around seven weeks. It was awful. I did not bond with him. I remember how painful it was to nurse him. Every time he cried, I was like, oh my gosh, do I have to, felt like an obligation. Then I'm feeling guilty because, you know, why don't I have these maternal instincts? Why am I not bonding with my baby? What is wrong with me? Am I broken? And it left all these confusing feelings that, you know, turn into a bit of postpartum baby blues as well. And just so confused about, you know, I was so excited to have this baby. What is wrong with me? Am I even meant to be a mother? And I know a lot of women go through this and sometimes it can lead into more severe feelings as well. And, you know, deeper depression, but we don't realize that it's all connected. [Joel] (40:38 - 41:13) Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard this saying before. I think it's like peace on earth starts at birth. Yeah, Catalina Clark. Yeah. Thanks for attributing the correct. So can you speak into it more like on a felt, I guess, spiritual or esoteric sense, like how the roots of birth and what kind of birth, you know, we experience really does kind of set the tone, maybe on a broader collective level for a lot of the dysfunction and the calamity that we witness on earth. [Kristen] (41:13 - 43:17) Yeah. Yeah. I love her saying peace on earth begins at birth. Ours with reclaiming birth is the foundation of the world begins in the womb. And I truly believe that that is where it begins. That is life. We're like all of us doesn't matter if we're here. We came from a womb and it matters how we enter the world. It matters how we got here. And we've been told to kind of almost dehumanize that, that it doesn't matter as long as you're a healthy baby, as long as you're here, like it doesn't matter. Like you're just here. Hence why they're trying to create artificial wombs to grow babies in now, which is wild. But I do believe that when we understand birth and we come into our bodies and trust, and this goes back to, you know, the GNM aspect of it as well. When we trust and we come into our role, we come into our body and we have this rite of passage into motherhood and parenting. It changes how you interact with one another, how you are, how you raise that child, how that child then knows how to trust their body, how they trust, you know, whatever they're going through, you know, that you can get through hard things. You have the capacity for growth. Your body's incredible and you're raising your child that way. So now they already know. They don't have to go through the deprogramming and the unlearning and everything that we do. They just know this is life. This is what we do. You know, for, I think now the cycle's been broken. I hope for my children, baby girl will know. My two boys were here. They stepped over me while I was in like the thick of labor to go switch bedrooms. They're just like, oh yeah, like baby ended up at our house. Here she is. And so they'll just know that as like how things are. And I think we take back our trust in that moment. And we're not asking for permission. We're not asking the experts. We're not going out. We are like, what can we do? Our body only knows how to heal and adapt. Our bodies are incredible. We're fearfully and wonderfully made. And you no longer want to outsource your child with education, with anything out there that is not within your home. And I think it changes the leaders that we're, that are raising that are coming next. [Joel] (43:18 - 44:00) It really is like the ultimate reclamation of power, you know, I think to go through that process. And yeah, same for us. Like we had the attempted home birth. Vali ultimately was born in the hospital. Second one was a midwife assisted home birth. And the third one, we moved to Mexico. We were living here at the time and you know, complete kind of free birth. I was the only other adult present and my two eldest daughters, they witnessed their baby sister be born in the home. And they saw that, they saw mom do that. And they saw how possible and realistic that was. And like you mentioned, it just raises the foundational level of who I am, what's possible and my personal power that exists. I think particularly for the women. [Kristen] (44:00 - 45:02) And I want to say too, for the men, it's so important. That's why I was so glad to have, you know, your Osmos in there and the other men that came to the event. And we have, you know, our speakers coming back this year, like Simon Esler and just to bring in, because the, I mean, it takes two to create life. That is a fact. And men should be a part of the conversation of how our children are coming into the world. And so they know that they're the protectors, the advocates, like they're creating this environment for the mother to feel safe, to continue to trust their bodies, to allow baby to come in. But it's so different as well, when you move from being a bystander at the top of the hospital bed, as my husband was, because we didn't know, versus our third, and he was incredibly involved. Like he just, he didn't leave my side, back pressure, the whole time, counter pressure. And then, you know, he had that immediate bonding with our daughter after, you know, I was kind of ready to go shower and get up. He had that skin-to-skin time. I was immediately able to bond with our baby in bed and at our home. And that, even that moment is incredibly different. [Joel] (45:02 - 45:25) Because it's a massive initiation for him as well. Like, look at all this responsibility that I have to protect this space and to allow flow in this space, so my wife can do what is physiologically natural for her to do, you know? And like the feelings that come up in him as like the masculine, you know, and then the protector and all the rest of it, like that can't be understated, what that does to a man as well, to be able to play that role in a birth. [Yerasimos] (45:26 - 46:39) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know, it really is just a co-creative process. You know, we're living in this world where it's like the men want to blame the women, the women want to blame the men. And it's like everyone has their role. I mean, you said it before, like no matter what, every child comes through a woman. And so that period, nine months in utero, you know, what is the state of the mother? What is the psychological state? How does she reclaim motherhood? That's going to impact the child. And yet, of course, the man, how is the man showing up in order to provide that safety, that love? You know, it's like, it's this interdependent relationship that is required. And so I think people need to stop pointing the fingers. I mean, this is just general self-responsibility and look at themselves and go, what can I do to help move the world forward and to bring this peace on earth through the birthing process? And I say this as someone who does not have children, but my wife and I would like to have children. So we'll see what's in store for us. But it's just like, I'm just tired of like the one-sided, like the polarizing world. Like it's both people have a responsibility to themselves, to childbirth, to the world and to figure it out. Like I'm just, I'm over it. [Kristen] (46:40 - 47:27) Yeah, absolutely. And how powerful is that? Because then that is like the two coming together, you know, to bring life in or whatever that looks like or learning how to work together. Like that are both are important. You can't have one without the other. We can't have life without, you know, male, female. Like you just, you just can't. Whatever they're trying to tell us, like it is, you know, woman and man. And it takes both. And we need to bring the conversation together and support both in the same way. But there's so much where they try to separate and do all these things instead of like, we're needed together. We always happen. That's why, you know, biblically, it's why Eve was like made from rib of Adam. However, you know, you want to look at that. Like we are literally meant to be together, work together and not, you know, do this pointing figures and blame. It's like trying to do the cohesiveness of both our roles. [Yerasimos] (47:27 - 48:29) I want to give again, I don't know your husband, but I want to give a shout out because like, you know, you're a nurse. You know, you guys were together. You were like, you know, stay away anti-vaxxers. Like you had certain views and like, you know, I don't know what your courting process like was like, like how you dated, what you talked about. Did you talk about, oh, if we have kids, this is what I believe from a medical standpoint. So it's like you're going through this process. And like, he's like, OK, like, I'm curious, like, did he have these beliefs? It was he was open to I'm assuming he was open to the information that you were sharing, because a lot of times, and I have many examples of this from my own life through friends or like relationships just ended. One person wakes up to certain realities and the other one's like, no, you're crazy. This relationship's ending. And especially after they've had kids too. And so like, it's just kudos to you and your partnership. And again, I'm not telling you to get into the nitty gritty of it. I'm sure it wasn't always rainbows and butterflies, but it's just like, it's, I don't know. It's just, it's pretty beautiful that you guys are still together and doing your thing and moving through life. Great. [Kristen] (48:30 - 50:01) Yeah, he's an incredible rock for me. He's the sturdy one, you know, the strong and silent type, but you know, speaks when he feels the reason to. But he, yeah, it's very interesting. We're both very conventional. When we were dating, you know, it was like, you know, kids are going to school. He became a high school teacher. It was like, yeah, I was nursing. This is what we're going to do again. Like the hospital birth, you know, our first son had his shots up till 18 months. Like, this is just what we did. And until again, that process of learning about food. So it's okay. We learned about food. We did that together. I think because everything was like a slow progression. And as I learned, I was sharing. So he was learning with me and we're just seeing this and our second son not getting any shots. It's like, why do they need that? Interesting story about my husband was he never believed in the flu shot, like ever. He thought it was like just nonsense. All the headlines like, oh, we almost got it right this year, but we didn't, you know, just he's like, what's the point? Why would I get it? Like, you don't even know what you're doing. And so he never got one except for when our first son was born and I made him, which was really, it's interesting now to look back on, like that is the journey. And so that is the one and only flu shot he has ever had. So I think as we were, I was learning all this other stuff, like it just made sense to him because he was always kind of against the flu shot. But so he was learning with me. [Yerasimos] (50:01 - 50:19) You know, it's my thought. Oh, you go. My father passed away two years ago at the age of 93, but he only got one flu shot in his life as well. And it like, he was like deathly ill from it. So like from then on, he was like, yeah, I don't need any flu shots. You don't give me no stupid flu shots. [Joel] (50:19 - 50:48) You know, it's interesting because like, obviously like mothers who have conventional births within hospitals, they're told, oh, anyone who comes and visits, make sure you tell them to get the flu shot. But it's like, that's just, it's a hijacking of that natural protective instinct. You like, it's probably coming from the right place in terms of, oh my God, I need to protect my baby. And this is what, you know, the conventional narrative is telling me needs to be done. It is like an inverting of that instinct in a way and funneling the energy down the wrong pathway. [Kristen] (50:49 - 50:59) Yeah. It's so wild to think about like the journey that we have been on and I am blessed to have him by my side. So I really appreciate you bringing up because he deserves to be acknowledged. What's his name? [Yerasimos] (51:00 - 51:00) Give him a shout out. [Kristen] (51:00 - 51:02) His name is Chris. [Yerasimos] (51:02 - 51:06) Chris, here for the truth. [Kristen] (51:07 - 51:13) He'll appreciate that. And yeah, there was something else I was gonna, it'll come back. [Yerasimos] (51:13 - 51:45) Yeah. Well, it's interesting to even just look at your journey, but just in general, like all parents, I mean, most of them, I would say, but it's like, they care, they want to care for their children. They want their children to be healthy. So like you 10 years ago, had the same foundational desire as you do now, but it's just the information and the awareness was completely different, which causes you to make these different choices. And so it's like, that's what breaks my heart the most is like the polarization and the battling when the core desire is the same. [Kristen] (51:47 - 52:41) And I try, it's hard, the more you know, and I'm sure you guys feel this because the more you know, the more you get passionate. You just want everyone to understand this. But I try to remember, like you said, like me 10 years ago, like, look how far I've come. So I'm like, I'm like trying to have that compassion and awareness, like anybody can come over. So we have to meet them where they're at to allow them to have this information because yes, everyone wants to do the best they can for their child. And I think that was the point I was gonna make is like, oh my gosh, we have to protect, you know, this baby. So get your flu shot. And now I'm seeing all these shirts where it's like, you know, don't kiss my baby, like stay away, like all these things. And people think that's protective. And now it's like, love my baby, be around my baby. We know that, you know, there's no gerbs to be afraid of. And I think kind of even isolating, keeping this bubble, you know, is not so great for our babies when they can be, when people just want to love them and kiss them and be with them. But now we're even making fear around that, fear around loving our babies. [Yerasimos] (52:41 - 52:59) Yeah, you're having friends that are reaching out to you to require you to take like the Tdap shot, you know, and other vaccines in order to even just come over to meet your baby, you know? And it's like, okay, well, have fun. I guess I'll meet your child one day. Yeah, I still don't like people kissing my babies, but that's fine. [Kristen] (52:59 - 53:07) Okay, I guess it's all, it's all personal. I'm not like saying strangers, but I just mean there is like so much fear around. [Yerasimos] (53:08 - 53:12) You just walk around holding your baby up high. Who wants to kiss my baby? [Joel] (53:15 - 53:32) Albert, all right, cool. So can we talk about, I guess, maybe how your education mindset evolved as you went down the home birth route and the natural birth route? How did your thoughts around schooling shift as well and education? [Kristen] (53:33 - 54:09) Oh yeah, that it's completely unnecessary. I just think that they educate you on one path of what they want you to know, what they want you to believe, what that looks like, you know? I think about nursing, they teach you that you're a critical thinker, you know, but actually only if you stay in this box, don't critical think too much. So looking back now, it's like, are they, you know, what are they actually teaching us? Well, they're just teaching us like, you know, in nursing doctors, like a Rockefeller guidebook, playbook, like that's it. And so my husband's a high school teacher, you know, we homeschool all our children. I always think that says a lot right there. [Joel] (54:09 - 54:14) Like he is- Were you homeschooling before or did that shift happen like concurrently with the other shifts? [Kristen] (54:14 - 54:36) With everything, 2020. Yeah, my first son was in Waldorf. He had six months experience of a kind of a different type of school at least. And then that was it. Once everything shut down, it's like, and you're not going back. And my husband sees what's going on. Like he's a high school teacher. He sees what's kind of happening. He's like, I'm really worried for, you know, this generation going out into the world. Who's going to be coming out of this system? [Yerasimos] (54:37 - 54:55) Yeah. What do you think is, what are you noticing is different between being in Canada versus maybe some of the things you know or you've observed in the US? Like, are they moving in the same direction? Are they shifting? Like what's similar? Are there more concerns for you being in Canada? I'm just curious because you hear a lot of people talking about Canada and the US and I'd love to know your thoughts on that. [Kristen] (54:56 - 56:54) I think you guys still have a lot more freedom is what I feel. Like we are very, we've been socialized for a long time, which I thought, you know, was great. You know, we can help people, you know, free healthcare. It is not like all these things, but not realizing that slippery slope from socialism to communism, like how that can happen. What I've noticed from going to the US and talking to others, like just the value of freedom, like what that means to you. Canadians don't really honour that. I don't think they really know what that means, how to fight for it, what that looks like. We're very much, you know, apologetic. This is how it is. Like, yes, we have to, you know, give up half our paycheck to pay for everyone else and we just follow the rules and this is what we're told to do. Where I've noticed in the US, there's a lot more freedom mindset there that is cherished and appreciated no matter what kind of polarizing side you maybe are in government. I think there is, that's my perspective. What I've noticed in health with the midwives have a lot more scope as well. Like, there's so many varying types of midwives in the US. Like, I talked to many of them. You know, you have your traditional midwives. Yes, there's some that are regulated by the state. You have some that, you know, are alternatively taught. But there's more options, even in nursing. If I was nursing in the states, there was so much more opportunities for holistic care and things like that. But we're very regulated and people in Canada love to be controlled in all aspects. And our midwives in Canada, unfortunately, are very much a part of that too, that regulation. And they can't really, there's not too... It's another extension of the obstetrical system, really. So you think you're, you know, you're making this choice of someone who appreciates home birth, but really you're just inviting the government and obstetrics into your home or into your care. That's my perspective. [Yerasimos] (56:55 - 57:06) Yeah, thanks for sharing your perspective. So when did the idea for reclaiming birth and your work and the conference, when did that come into being? [Kristen] (57:07 - 57:38) Yeah, right when baby girl was born. I just, I felt like this immense responsibility that I need to let as many women know about this as possible, as many families, as many as I can. So she was six months old when reclaiming birth, the first one started September, 2023. There she was in my arms, like sharing her entire story. And, and then, yeah, we're going into our fourth year this year, where we're changing it up, completely new venue, new location, just an entirely new feel to it this year, which I'm really excited about. [Yerasimos] (57:38 - 57:48) Have you noticed it growing over the years, which I guess tends to happen with these kinds of things, like was the first one, like how many people did you have at it, have at it? And then now are you expecting it just to continue to grow and evolve? [Kristen] (57:49 - 57:53) Yeah, we've, the, I would say the year you're at last year was the smallest one. [Speaker 4] (57:54 - 57:54) Okay. [Kristen] (57:54 - 58:27) Yeah, so very interesting. So I'm going to see where this year goes. It seems to fluctuate. Yeah, but I do have big goals for how it's going to grow, even traveling and taking it to the US. I have, you know, in talks with people, even in the UK, there's lots of people that want to see this movement right now. We're kind of one of the only ones that really talk about out of system, undisturbed physiological birth and reclaiming the birthing process that's been hijacked. And I think it's really, a really important movement to be a part of. [Yerasimos] (58:27 - 59:18) I really loved your event last year, you know, it was two days, right? Or is it three, two days? It was two days, yeah. Two days. And yeah, my wife and I came out for it. And, you know, part of the reason was obviously what you were holding there. And we had like four or five friends that were speaking there. And it was just great. Like, I just loved all the speakers. I love the talks. I love the connections. And it's just, I just think it's pretty epic what you're doing. Cause it's like, you know, when you have this knowledge and you have the education and you have this mission, like you just want more, like you said, more and more people to know about it. And you want the people that actually are curious too, to come to it. Like, instead of just beating, beating people over the head that you know are committed to misunderstanding you. It's like, well, who are the people that like there's that crack is already open. And they just, they want to be exposed to these different points of view and these amazing thinkers. And yeah, I commend what you're doing. And I think it's pretty, pretty epic. [Kristen] (59:19 - 1:00:12) Thank you. And there, and there is a reason why it's in person, right? There's so much, like it's such a amazing that we're all connected here today in this moment, you know, thank you technology. But, you know, like I know you guys were at Confluence. Like there's, you cannot replace in-person gatherings. And, and it's like, yes, the speakers are amazing. Yes. Come listen. But as you know, it's who are you meeting in the room with you? Who are you meeting at the events? Who are you linking arms with or sharing stories, experiences? Like you never know that one person you could meet or many that you are going to impact their lives or they're going to impact you. And that's the, that's the ripple that I want to see. It's like, we have to come together and link arms and really, you know, take this energy. So when everyone goes back home, well, then they're shining their light brighter and can continue to have hope and realize this work is so important. And I'm sure you all felt that when you got back from Confluence. [Yerasimos] (1:00:12 - 1:01:09) Well, yeah. I mean, you're speaking our language. Like I couldn't have said any better myself. Like I'm so grateful and I feel so blessed with technology and all the conversations we've had and the connections we've made. But like, you know, hanging with your homies, you know, like hugging one another in person. There's no substitute for it. You know, I've been to every Confluence and then all pretty much all the Music in the Sky events that were happening. Like, I mean, this past one at Confluence, we had 30 plus people from our online Friends of the Truth community from different parts of the country, different parts of Canada, even Europe come there. And we got to meet each other because until then, many of us, we just know each other in these little squares on Zoom. And so like, you know, getting a hug from someone that you've known for a few years is amazing. And then, like you said, all the new people that you meet, the connections that are made, you have no idea, no idea how one connection, one conversation can change the trajectory of your life. [Kristen] (1:01:09 - 1:01:16) Yeah. Yeah. I just got full body goosebumps. Like it is that powerful. You just have no idea. Just takes one. [Yerasimos] (1:01:16 - 1:02:42) And that's why I'm like such an advocate, where I'm like, what are you waiting for? Come to these events, especially for people that are like, no one knows me in my community. Like I'm all alone. Like I'm all alone. Well, what are you doing about it? You know, it's not like there's only, you know, a thousand people on Earth that believe these things. There's way more people. And so part of that is you reclaiming yourself. You know, we talk about reclaiming birth, reclaim yourself and who you are and what you believe and what you value, but not like hiding from it, sharing it. Well, you might have to have the difficult conversation. You might need to plant the seed with people in your environment and in your world. And they're like, oh, actually, I think of similar things. Oh, really? Well, let's get dinner. Oh, really? Well, let's have dinner once a month with five other people. That grows to 10 people. It grows to 20 people. But if you're sitting on the sidelines, worrying what other people are going to think, walking on eggshells, you know, not going to these events, you know, you're going to experience the life of loneliness and feeling disconnected. And so there's a personal responsibility that's required in order for you to have the life that you want. And so create the events, bring community together, host summits, host reclaiming birth. You know, it's like that's the future. Like, I love technology. It's amazing. Even the technology that's coming out. But you have to still meet in person and break bread and sit around the fire, whatever the case may be. [Kristen] (1:02:43 - 1:02:46) Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I just got me fired up. [Joel] (1:02:48 - 1:02:59) Even the foundational element of like a DHS per GNM is that it happens in a conflict shock happens in isolation, right? Yeah. You know, so just the importance cannot be understated at all. [Yerasimos] (1:02:59 - 1:03:16) And we've become more and more isolated over the last decades. And so how do we, like, move from that inversion and stay connected and share and feel held, you know, by hopefully our family? Well, first, hopefully ourselves, first and foremost, our family and then our community. [Kristen] (1:03:16 - 1:04:22) Yeah, absolutely. That's what I call it. Hearts, homes and hands. So it's first has to come into our own heart, then our homes and then the hands of the community. And that's how that's how it spreads. But you have to be willing to link arms and get uncomfortable. And, you know, I was saying before we we started recording, like I was just coming from an event and I wasn't sure if I could make it. But I was like, no, I know how important it is to get in the room. So went to Denver, Colorado for this in-person event. And you're just like, you know, met so many people that, you know, were kind of similar doing this birth work or doing other things and watching them, you know, dream or create their impact, whatever it is. But you just leave so energized. You're like people are doing amazing things in this planet. And that, you know, I think one of our conversations here, it's like, well, how do we make that shift? Is like one stop, like being stuck in the doom scroll and thinking that the world is terrible, because when you focus on, you know, people like yourselves and going to these events and meeting people, you're like, wow, like there's people out there doing incredible work. Like, how amazing is that? It gives you hope. And it's like this world is just amazing when you focus on that and what we're possible of creating. [Joel] (1:04:22 - 1:04:29) I mean, how do we solve anything without like a general baseline of optimism? Like nothing is ever going to be solved without that. [Yerasimos] (1:04:30 - 1:05:11) Yeah, like pessimism and apathy and feeling like you can't do anything. OK, enjoy the rest of your life. Yeah, change is going to happen that way. Yeah, OK, cool. You know what? You do your thing. Stay away from me. I'm over here with like the people that are hopeful, optimistic, heroic, realizing like, yeah, there is shit in the world. But you know what? There is so much beauty. You know, look around, you know? But again, it's like as within, so without. Is there beauty within yourself? Do you love yourself? How do you feel about this gift of life that God has given you? You know, and so again, it's like charity starts at home. You got to love yourself first and foremost. And then that extends out into the world, in my opinion. [Kristen] (1:05:12 - 1:05:15) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's so beautiful. [Joel] (1:05:15 - 1:05:39) Let's let's lighten the mood and talk about circumcision. In your nurse, your peak nurse era, like what were your, what was your education around circumcision and how did you feel about it as a working nurse and maybe any actual direct experiences and how that may have shifted for you? [Kristen] (1:05:40 - 1:05:45) Yeah, you guys are going to get, you will be the first ones to get this raw conversation from me. [Yerasimos] (1:05:45 - 1:05:51) Oh, great. We've had conversations on circumcision before, but obviously you're so close to it. So yeah, please. [Kristen] (1:05:51 - 1:07:46) Yeah, as a nurse, you know, it's hygienic, right? It's just what you do is just kind of common practice. And I went, I took two babies to one. I stayed in the room and this one doctor was the one that everyone loved and hoped was always the one doing them. You know, he was great. And these babies, you know, they're put on these plastic trays, you know, kind of strapped to it, given sugar, sucrose, and there's a soother. And this is probably not this where you're going to expect this to go, but they just sucked on their soother and the sucrose during the entire process. They didn't cry. They didn't make a word. And so this, I'm just sharing, I've never shared this before. So publicly, so in my experience, I was like, well, it can't be too bad because that's what I witnessed. Like these babies, you know, they're not even crying. They don't look hurt. They're sucking on their soother. They look happy. They're fine after, wrapped up, brought back. And I was like, well, this can't be too bad. And the sad part is, is just, I didn't know. And this is something, you know, for my first two, that is just what I thought you did. And it really kind of hurts my heart to think about that now because you can't take it back. And it is what it is. Yeah, see, I've never really talked about it publicly. So I'm going to cry thinking, but it's just, I remember reconciling this with when we became pregnant with the third. And I thought, oh my gosh, if we have a boy, I was like, now I know, like, I know, I can't now that I know. And what is that going to look like if they're different? And what's that going to do to them? And how do we, and I didn't have to have that conversation, but it hurts my heart to think about my role in that. And I think it's awful and sad and that we just allowed it to be normalized. [Yerasimos] (1:07:48 - 1:08:06) Yeah. So you're saying that when you were experienced it, cause I've heard different things. So I'm curious that like, that the babies just seemed like it was normal. Cause I've heard like babies that do, they do cry or it's like they dissociate from their bodies and aren't really experiencing what's happening. So yeah, I don't know. [Kristen] (1:08:06 - 1:08:30) Yeah. And I don't know when maybe those babies that I witnessed the two in that room, maybe they were dissociating and I just took that as like, oh, look at that timing, you know, like there, it can't be that bad. And yeah. And then to be honest, I wasn't in the room with my two sons. Like now I'm looking back and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like there's a lot of guilt. Yeah. [Yerasimos] (1:08:30 - 1:08:44) Is that part of the process because if you think, if mothers were actually in the room, like that they'd be like, well, no, I'm not doing this to my kid, but because it's like removed, that it's just something that continues to perpetuate. [Kristen] (1:08:44 - 1:09:19) I think so. Yeah. I think so. Cause they're like, oh, this could be hard. Like, you know, maybe they could have been like the two babies I saw or other babies are, you know, just outside of themselves screaming. I've heard, you know, and no mother parent wants that for their child. So I do think there's, you know, separation on purpose for sure. Yeah. But it is, it's general mutilation and it definitely is a conversation that needs to happen and more awareness needs to be had about it. [Joel] (1:09:19 - 1:09:20) Yeah. I wish I knew. [Kristen] (1:09:20 - 1:09:23) I wish it was a louder conversation for me to hear. [Joel] (1:09:24 - 1:09:32) Yeah. So like those babies that, you know, were just sucking on their soothers or whatever, like was it like anesthetic applied in that situation or did you know at all? [Kristen] (1:09:33 - 1:09:53) Yeah. They, they give like 24% sugar is what we call it. Sucrose in the unit. So anytime a baby is like doing anything painful, we give them sugar. It's liquid sugar. And that seems to be kind of like a pain meant for them in the unit. And then they're given Emla, which is like a numbing cream that they're put around. Yeah. And so they have the numbing cream first too. [Joel] (1:09:53 - 1:09:58) Wow. No, I really, really appreciate you sharing your direct experience on that for sure. Yeah. [Kristen] (1:10:00 - 1:10:02) Mm-hmm. That's one of those like, just hurts my heart. [Yerasimos] (1:10:03 - 1:10:08) No, I mean, I, it hurts my heart. It's like, I mean, something I went through that I don't have any recollection of. [Kristen] (1:10:08 - 1:10:11) That's what I think about my sons. I'm like, I don't know. [Yerasimos] (1:10:11 - 1:10:19) You know, and again, it's like you're born, if you're born in another country, it probably won't happen, you know, but there's certain countries where you're born and it does happen. [Joel] (1:10:20 - 1:10:35) Yeah. I want to ask you a question if you're willing to go there. So like, how do you think, I mean, you probably, I'm assuming you haven't already done this, but how do you think you would go about having that conversation with your sons at the time when that might be had? [Kristen] (1:10:37 - 1:10:55) Oh, I have thought about this and I don't know how I'm going to approach this yet. It's something I've thought about a lot, like how to kind of share this. I don't know if it's like, you know, a little bit older, if now's the time. I'll be honest, I think about it. I haven't had the conversation. [Speaker 4] (1:10:55 - 1:10:56) Yeah. [Kristen] (1:10:56 - 1:11:19) And I think I just haven't known how to do it. So yeah, I don't know. You'll probably have a lot of comments from listeners that have maybe had the conversation or have done it or, but I will tell them the truth, how this is what I thought was best for them that I didn't know. And I will just tell them how sorry I am and hope that, you know, down the line we'll be forgiven. That's all you can do. I don't know. [Speaker 4] (1:11:19 - 1:11:20) Yeah. Yeah. [Kristen] (1:11:20 - 1:11:21) Yeah. [Speaker 4] (1:11:21 - 1:11:22) No, thank you for that. [Yerasimos] (1:11:23 - 1:12:32) And it's like, I have this overarching belief, like, you know, everyone's walking their path. They have their story. They have their challenges. You know, it's like I could sit here and go, I wish it didn't happen to me. And I do. A part of me wishes it didn't happen to me, but then I'm me, you know? And I like who I am. And I like this journey that I've been on. And, you know, it's part of my story. So there is some level of acceptance that I think has to come forth for the individual. Now, in terms of your situation, I remember when I first started going down this rabbit hole, I went to my little old Greek mom and I tend to approach things from humor a little bit. So I was kind of like talking smack to her. I was like, hey, I can't believe you let this happen to me. And she's like, I don't know. I'm in the US and they tell me this duck that I say yes. You know, like if I was born in Greece again, I'd have my foreskin. It's just one of those things where like, what can you do? But I'm just happy that the numbers seem to be going down in terms of the percentage of newborns that are being circumcised. And for me, again, like we said earlier, is it happening as quickly as we wanted to? No, but change is happening. But change is happening. There is awareness and I'm grateful for that. [Joel] (1:12:32 - 1:13:09) Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So say you're, well, it's time to say approach. Okay. Say there's like a very conventional, mainstream pregnant mother, right? And you're in a conversation with them. How do you go about facilitating, questioning the narrative and questioning the choices for someone that's just agreeing to this, is pregnant for the first time? And, you know, how would you, I guess, plant seeds for someone like that? [Kristen] (1:13:10 - 1:14:22) Yes, I've gotten a little better at this. You know, when you know this information, it's kind of like water hose. You just want to like share it with everyone. But it's listening. I ask questions and I've gotten better at just asking questions, you know, maybe why they, you know, oh, you know, that's interesting. Why did you decide that? Or how does it make you feel? Or just listening to their stories and seeing if there's like a one place to kind of plant a seed. Like, oh, have you ever thought about this? Or did you know maybe this piece of like, the catecholamines, I probably wouldn't use that word, but maybe just share a little story. What I found is when I can share a little bit of my past experiences in my births and not overshare, but just like, oh yes, when my son was born in the hospital, this happened, but my baby girl, I got to experience this. And just, I've found ways to kind of just plant it gently where I just listen and see where they're at and see if they're open to hearing anything different and go from there. Because there's some that are very much like, they do not want to hear. And so, very quickly want to stop that conversation and just know that is- I appreciate that. [Joel] (1:14:23 - 1:14:55) This is, to me, this is the art form that we all need to focus on mastering like a lot more. Like there's ways to plant seeds with very rounded edges and ways that don't feel invasive or intrusive or forceful by like reading the person, speaking from a direct experience, asking open-ended questions, allowing the other person to share their genuine feelings and thoughts about a situation without any pre-cognitive bias about what you're trying to get out of them. Like this is an art form. And I feel like it's a very important one. [Yerasimos] (1:14:56 - 1:15:45) Yeah. And what is required? Emotional intelligence. Understanding communication, discernment, knowing, like you said, all the listening, like you're listening to someone. Well, you may not bring up a certain topic, but you might bring up another topic based on that person. You know, whereas, and you have to be connected to your own heart. Like if you're approaching from, I'm going to beat this person over the head with knowledge because I've read all these books. No one wants to hear anyone talk at them. You know, like, and I say that as someone who did a lot of talking at people in my life in the past, and I probably still do occasionally, but it's more just like the presence and asking questions and then, okay, well, maybe I can bring this up with this specific person. Oh, no, I'm not going to, I'm not going to bring up, you know, G and M with this person. [Kristen] (1:15:46 - 1:16:00) Too much. Too far. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of just meeting them where they're at. And I, and throughout, you know, 2020, I think a lot of us were very bold when we believed it. It was like, just shouting it. Like, everyone should know this, you know, you just want to take them and shake them. [Yerasimos] (1:16:01 - 1:16:02) And it was so new, our life. [Kristen] (1:16:02 - 1:16:58) So we felt like, yeah, like depending on it, like everything. Yes. And so it was like, it felt like this pressure, like you had to get out there and, and just realizing it was kind of a lot of learning through that of like the people that pushed away, people that didn't want to hear. And then starting to learn how to have conversations, like actually how to listen versus preaching. I mean, it's practice. Like you said, it's an art. Am I, you know, the best at it? No, but I continue to kind of learn because I also have to remember where I was and how do people plant seeds with me? What worked? What didn't? How did I finally come around? And so I've been really trying to get better at that. Because I've definitely swung from this side of conventional nursing, you know, home birth should be illegal to everyone needs to do it this way to, okay, well, like you said it, one of the conversations, like we just want the best for our children. So how can we meet each other in the middle and just actually be informed so we can make the best decisions that make sense. [Yerasimos] (1:16:58 - 1:17:51) Do you ever, like, for me, I get all these reminders on Facebook of like memes and things I shared like six years ago. And I'm like, like, I get it at the time. Like the zeitgeist of the period. But like, I'm like, I would never share that now in that manner, you know, and like, I've evolved in my own way. But again, the time period was different. You know, like it wasn't backs up against the wall in the same way. Now it's more about what are you creating? What are you producing? How are you inspiring? How are you connecting? Whereas back then it was so new. And literally, I mean, like for many of us, I mean, Joel couldn't even go to a park. You know, like he got arrested or was about to get arrested. He had to go to court four times and defend himself. You know, it's like I lived in Los Angeles. I couldn't go to restaurants. You know, like that was like, are you serious? Like, no, no, we're not having that. So anyways. [Joel] (1:17:51 - 1:17:57) Yeah, I'm glad a five-year relationship with me has enhanced your communication and your discernment. So you're welcome. [Yerasimos] (1:17:57 - 1:17:59) Oh, yeah, that's definitely, that's definitely. [Joel] (1:18:00 - 1:18:06) It's the biggest factor in your life between 2020 and now. Anyways. [Yerasimos] (1:18:06 - 1:18:07) This is perfect. Yeah. [Joel] (1:18:09 - 1:18:14) Cool. I mean, anything else you want to share, I guess, in closing that's present for you? [Kristen] (1:18:16 - 1:20:38) No, I just love how you even just brought that up. Like how there was this time where it was like this fight, right? Like how it was like, oh my gosh, like our survival depends on it. But now the shift is into what are we creating? What are we producing? How are we inspiring? Like I loved how you said all those three things. And I think that is exactly what is needed more of right now. And to come from a place of authenticity and for people to share their stories and to connect in real life or connect through conversation as the world gets more technology faster, that we come back to this place of just connecting with ourselves and nature. And I will share just kind of to plug in reclaiming birth this year. The changes that have taken place was part of that was the convention center that we were using served its purpose for that time. Like it was kind of for me, ground zero, I actually wrote my nursing exam in that room. And it was like a kitty corner from the hospital that terminated me. And it was like this whole stance of still kind of like, no, we're putting the stakes in and we're doing this here. But it was a bit of a disconnect for me that room because it was like, I wasn't in love with the food, but that's all there was. There was like no nature. I don't like this city. Like I really do not like this city, but it's where I currently am at this temporary time. So it's like, how could I invite people here? And so we had booked in to be the same venue this year and I made the change and I was like, I just can't do it. And so we completely, I completely changed where we're going this year. And we're at this event space that is surrounded by a hundred acres of greenery. It's just, you just look out and it's trees and nature and this space where you could just, you can feel it like breathe and you can just get outside and just connect. There's seven kilometers of trail. The room is bright with windows, like natural light pouring in. You could actually step out to the patio. And this is the whole thing if we're reclaiming birth. While I want people to, like you said, reclaim themselves, connect to nature. The food is like healthy renowned. We got people bringing in fresh pressed juice, bone broth, like decaffeinated mushroom drinks. Like there's just bringing in a lot more aspects. Yes, it's called Mount Alverno. It's September 10th to 12th. [Yerasimos] (1:20:39 - 1:20:43) Yeah, but like, is this outside of London, Ontario? Or is this a completely different location? [Kristen] (1:20:43 - 1:21:03) Yeah, it's outside of Toronto, about 45 minutes from the airport to make it more central for people to kind of get to. And we have an extra day. So the day people arrive on the Thursday, I wanted people to feel welcomed into the space and set the intention for the day. So we have a band coming in. You guys might've seen them at Confluence one year, Winsome Kind. [Joel] (1:21:03 - 1:21:10) Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they're friends for sure. That's amazing. Yeah, my wife did the cover off with that recent kids album that came out. [Kristen] (1:21:10 - 1:21:49) Oh, amazing. Okay, I knew you guys were connected. I didn't know how much. Okay, incredible. So they're coming in the first night. Like their entire family just embodies this entire movement. And so they're coming in to welcome everyone with song, you know, some drinks and there's just gonna be a lot more. There's massage therapists coming to give 15, 20 minute massages for everyone throughout. And I just wanted people to come and just feel nourished, not just, you know, with information, but their body to connect, to experience more. So this is the evolution of where this is going. Cause yes, it's reclaiming birth, but to me it's reclaiming the family, which leads to just reclaiming every aspect of what we're building here. [Joel] (1:21:49 - 1:21:51) Incredible. Wow, that sounds amazing. [Yerasimos] (1:21:52 - 1:21:58) Yeah, I love that you're bringing more nature into it. Cause I loved your event and I totally get it. Like it'd be nice to be connected to more nature. [Kristen] (1:21:59 - 1:22:03) Yes, and not come off a construction highway and getting into London and all the things. Yes. [Yerasimos] (1:22:03 - 1:22:14) Yeah, we have people in our community that live in the greater Toronto area. So, well, you know, two of them, they were there last year that we met. So yeah, that's cool. Shout out to Glenna and Greg. [Kristen] (1:22:14 - 1:22:17) Yeah, that's awesome. Yes, hopefully they'll come back. [Yerasimos] (1:22:17 - 1:22:23) Yeah, well, we have a link for our listeners and I think a discount code we have, right? [Speaker 4] (1:22:23 - 1:22:24) Yes, you do. [Yerasimos] (1:22:25 - 1:22:39) HFTT15, I believe. But we'll have that in the show notes. And yeah, just like so grateful for you. I'm so happy that we got to finally connect. I'm so happy that we had this conversation way overdue for sure. But yeah. [Kristen] (1:22:40 - 1:22:41) It's all in perfect timing. [Yerasimos] (1:22:41 - 1:22:44) Yeah, I love it. I appreciate you so much. [Joel] (1:22:44 - 1:23:19) No, for sure. And I think it's important to like, on like the ripple effect of answering the personal call in your life and how that has impacted all of us as a result of you going through something, you feeling something deep, you're growing in awareness, changing your mind, and completely shifting the trajectory of your life. And in turn, informing and raising awareness for so many more people as a result of you answering a call. Like that's what it's about. So thank you so much, Kristen. So awesome to connect. Reclaiming Birth sounds awesome. We'll have that link in the show notes. And yeah, everyone else, thank you for listening. [Kristen] (1:23:19 - 1:23:21) Thank you so much. [Joel] (1:23:21 - 1:23:22) Take care.