Mark Vicente The Narcissist's Playbook

Mark 00:00:00.240 - 00:00:00.560 Foreign. Joel 00:00:05.280 - 00:00:31.020 Mark Vicente Is a South African born filmmaker best known for directing what the Bleep Do. We know he spent over 12 years inside Nixium before becoming one of the central whistleblowers in its collapse and a key voice in HBO's the Bow. He first joined us on episode 221 Inside the Making of a Cult for one of our most talked about conversations and we're super grateful to have him back. Mark, good to see you again, man. Mark 00:00:31.500 - 00:00:34.940 Thanks my man. Thanks my men. Thanks my men Say,. Joel 00:00:36.940 - 00:00:50.780 Well man, it's been, I guess I think it was over a year since we've last kind of checked in or close to it. How, how are things for you? Just give us a general check in, man. So kick this one off. What's, what's, what's been happening. I know you've been diving into a few new projects. Mark 00:00:51.420 - 00:04:19.680 It's, it's insane actually right now. So, so we've been working on Narcissist Playbook. It used to be called Empathy Not Included. Now it's called Narcissist Book. And then the byline is simply not Included. We've been working on that for, I'd say over five years. It's taken a long time, a lot of like twists and turns. Also it's been interesting, like even in the making of the film because you're making a film about narcissism at different scales, including societal and political. There has been some pushback that's been really interesting, you know, but that's been, it's been a very rewarding process in the sense of like, we have an amazing, amazing film also. The film is, and some people have heard me say this, the film seems like it's going to be like an educational doc and then it turns into a thriller which is kind of, which is kind of interesting. There's this twist that happens and a lot of people that have seen it, not a lot of people have seen it, but those that have seen it are pretty, pretty blown away. A little bit messed up sometimes, you know, afterwards because it's, it's very, very intense. Because what we do is, you know, a lot of people that have been in these abusive relationships or cults or whatever, they try to explain like what the process is, like how you get emotionally dismantled, how your psyche gets dismantled. But it's very difficult to explain to somebody that's never been through it, like, how did you not see it? Like, why didn't you leave? Couldn't you tell he was an. Whatever it is. And so the film actually takes you through the experience of what it's like to get fooled. And so a lot of people at the end go like, oh, that's how it happens, you know, because everybody assumes, oh, like the person or the group or the whatever shows up and tells you exactly who they are, which they don't. They, they love bomb you, they flower you with whatever. They present a mask. And like, if you're not discerning enough or haven't learned how to spot these things, you believe the mask and you assume, oh, they, they're like me, they love the same things I do. And then later you find it, no, no, they don't at all. And they may have no, no soul, no, no empathy at all. So it's a bit of a shock for people, but the film takes you through that experience, which is kind of cool. So that's that film. And then you've probably also. You actually mentioned Instaguru. So Instaguru came out of when, like years back in 2021, we were reaching out to like people on the interwebs saying, hey, we want stories about narcissistic abuse. And some of the, the defectors from Bentino's organization reached out and we thought, great, we'll include them in the film. But the story is so big that we thought, honestly, it's going to have to be its own thing. So we're developing that as a series. But in the meantime, because a lot of, because of a lot of things that are going on right now, which I'm going to be a bit obtuse about, we thought let's just get a podcast going because we can have long form discussions and in some ways they're like pre interviews as well. And it seems to be having a lot of impact because people like you were saying, yes, they're, they're fascinated with cults, but what's also happening is people that have never been in a cult, but have been in an abusive relationship or a church or a political party or whatever are saying, holy shit, it's the same. And I'm like, yes, that's the point. It's exactly the same, just a different scale and in different contexts. So that those are the two, you know, main things that have been going on. And it's honestly been exhausting, but like super satisfying. And then Narcissist Playbook is about to come out in July, which I'm very, very excited about. And of course there's life, but that's the, that's the major work stuff right now. Yerasimos 00:04:20.080 - 00:04:32.080 That's awesome. I Know, we normally do this at the end of the episode, but since you brought it up, like real quickly for people that maybe don't get to the end for the narcissist playbook, where can they go to just like either put their name on an email list or. Mark 00:04:32.480 - 00:05:44.460 Yeah, actually, I'm glad you mentioned that. Just so you know, we. We're Survivor funded, so we don't have a studio behind us, we don't have a streamer behind us. In fact, Hollywood is not enchanted with this film at all. They also say there's no audience for the film, which is like, you guys are fucking idiots. Yeah, so it's all Survivor funded, so we're still raising money as we go towards the release. So if people go to narcissistsplaybook.com and I'll give you guys a link and everything, they can go there, they can see the trailer. They can also go and donate and you can see what you're donating towards. And then for anybody who donates, they're going to get to see the film early on July 17th. And then on the weekend of 7-24-26, we're running a sort of an online release launch weekend where we're going to show the film a few times and then include a bunch of the clinicians that were in the, in the film. You know, people that were, you know, like subjects in the film, like discussions, Q&As, panels, keynotes, a whole bunch of stuff. And then later in July, it's going to be available for rental and then we're still going to do a theatrical tour sort of in August because we find that it's best seen in person with other people. Like it's a community event because, you know, you see it and then you want to talk to people. And so we'd like to do as many in person screenings as possible. So that's kind of where they can go. Yerasimos 00:05:44.700 - 00:05:46.540 Amazing. You coming out to la? Mark 00:05:47.980 - 00:05:57.900 I have been for little. I did this screening at ucla. We are going to do a big screening in la. We did a UCLA screening which was kind of cool. All for clinicians, like, you know, all the mental health experts. That was insane. Yerasimos 00:05:58.140 - 00:05:58.620 Wow. Mark 00:05:58.700 - 00:06:23.040 I was terrified because I was like, oh my God. These are like the. I'm. I'm not a clinician at all. You know, I've never had. I don't have a degree in any of this stuff. And what was cool was that like there were about 400 people. We had to turn away, I think over 100 people because it was too Full. And it was at the UCLA Film school, which was kind of cool as well. And everybody was astounded. So I was like, oh, thank God the mental health people are accepting this as well, which is very cool. Yerasimos 00:06:23.440 - 00:06:45.770 Yeah. Well, first off, I kind of want to just touch this subject from the basics because we've chatted about narcissism on the podcast before. But again, like we've mentioned before, everyone throws that term out there in so many different ways. And from your point of view, from your experience, from your research, like, what is a narcissist? Mark 00:06:47.450 - 00:08:25.000 I guess the first thing, and again, I'm not trained in any of this stuff. The first thing I would say is there's narcissistic traits which a lot of people have. But then there's like, you know, I think the DSM 9, DSM 5, sorry, says that, that there are nine traits, you know, which include, you know, lack empathy, you know, a certain amount of arrogance. There's like nine different things. And they say if you have five of these nine things that you display on a consistent basis, they would say you have mpd. I think there's a very big difference between having the traits, you know, as a defense mechanism perhaps, and having the full blown pathology. And the full blown pathology is a whole different deal because these people, there is something wrong with their brain. Like, they don't really care about people. They care about themselves. Like, they might even cry for themselves. But it's pity. They're extremely arrogant. They can be very sort of messianic. They think they're special. They think they're the most special of anybody, the most intelligent of anybody. They believe that when they walk into a room, they're the shit. Now I want to distinguish as well. It's a hell of a rabbit hole. That's more grandiose narcissism. Then there's also covert or vulnerable. And these are the people that just suffer all the time. And woe is me and everybody's against me. What they want power and control, but they want to get it through suffering. You might see entire political parties, for instance, doing this, you know, so there's, there's, in fact, if you look at politics, I, I feel like there's grandiose narcissism against vulnerable narcissism right now in the United States and of course, many, many other countries as well. But again, there's a difference between having the traits and like the full blown pathology. But again, not an expert just spent a lot of time talking to these people now. So, yeah, for sure. Joel 00:08:25.240 - 00:08:29.090 And the kind of, kind of is what raises expertise in my opinion. Mark 00:08:29.890 - 00:08:30.610 What do you mean? Joel 00:08:31.170 - 00:08:45.250 Spending a lot of time around the people being immersed in the subject. Like you're, you're finding your own way to expertise as opposed to having, to having studied the DSM 5 or been through traditional methods. You know, like what. How do you become an expert on narcissists without. Mark 00:08:45.730 - 00:11:10.410 It's interesting because some people do the academic route. Yeah, I have a problem with academia in general, which is I feel they're just very constrained. You can't do this, you can't do that, you can't point out that somebody's probably a narcissist or probably, you know, I can say whatever I want because I don't have any degrees in this. But what the thing I have done is I've now spoken to a lot of narcissists. You know, I've spoken to a lot of self confessed narcissists who tell me about how they operate. We have four of them in the film we interview four of them, you know, and basically one of them is a extreme, is a, is a narcissistic psychopath. That dude is scary. But when you talk to them, ones that can tell you how they operate, it's pretty fascinating. There's, they're not the same as us, you know, there's a kind of emptiness. They don't have access to the same emotions. And the way that they end up feeling good often is by abusing or pushing down other people. Like there is no sense of self. Like a person with normal empathy. And it sounds like very dark and it is very dark, but it's really helped me. And the reason it's helped me is because when I went to trial against my cult leader who I believe is a high, a high end psychopath, he never confessed to anything at all. So in some ways I went to go interview all these people and it's like I was interviewing him because they're kind of like the same. There's an archetype that's similar. So I was getting healing and closure by interviewing other people and realizing, oh, that's what's going on, that's what's happening here. Like my cult leader has these messianic delusions who think and he believes to this day that he's superior to most people. You know, he's above the legal system, above this, above that and he can do whatever. Of course he won't ever acknowledge like that he's a little 13 year old boy that still likes to Diddle, you know, his cult members, but he's, you know, deeply dissociated, but like he lives in this other world altogether and he doesn't see the world the same way. But he, he is and was. I don't know if he still is. I assume he is. He was very sadistic and. And literally taught us about the joy that people with psychopathic pathologies have, the joy they get in hurting people. And that's what he was as well. So it was a very weird, complex thing, you know, being taught by a psychopath in a cult. Very odd. Yerasimos 00:11:11.050 - 00:11:35.140 From Mark, from the conversations that you've had with people for your film, and just in life in general around this subject. Like, what is the cause? Like, I mean, I wouldn't say the cause, but like, you know, I would assume there's intense trauma that comes from this. But have you noticed a pattern in some of these people that you spoke with or you interviewed, if they've even shared what they've gone through in their life? Mark 00:11:35.780 - 00:11:36.220 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:11:36.220 - 00:11:36.900 What age? Mark 00:11:37.780 - 00:12:51.740 Yeah. So this is interesting. This is a whole controversy. So in the film we have twins. One is a self confessed narcissist and his twin brother is a. Is a deeply emotional, beautiful man. Same household, same everything, same experiences. One went one way and one went the other way. So the argument that it's purely genetics, not necessarily true. Also the idea that there's trauma in these people's background. There might be and often there is, but then people say, okay, but like a lot of people are traumatized, it doesn't mean you become an asshole, you start hurting other people. So it's not as simple as saying trauma, although that seems to be very present. From the clinicians I've spoken to, I think some people are born with it. I think there's a lot of different things. I don't think anybody knows for sure. A lot of people say trauma, but then what happens is that goes down the rabbit hole of, oh, they're just wounded souls, okay? They're wounded souls who do terrible, terrible things to people. You know, just being a wounded soul doesn't cause you to become like that. Because you guys know wounded souls that are amazing human beings that want a better humanity because for whatever reason, their trauma, they want people to not have to experience what they did. They want to improve the world, whatever it is. Joel 00:12:52.300 - 00:12:52.820 So it's. Mark 00:12:52.820 - 00:13:57.160 I don't think it's strictly trauma, but I do. What I do see is either they were born with it or there's a moment that they decided to disconnect they, they speak about sometimes there was a moment they decided to dissociate and they dissociated so deeply that they couldn't find their way back or didn't want to come back. So it's not like there's an inner child. One even said to me, it's not, not like I have an inner child that's kind of, you know, waiting there for me. The inner child is shriveled and dead. And this is what some of them say. So they make a decision. And I remember when I was a kid, like being so angry. I was never going to love again. I was never going to like anybody. I was going to be this, that and the other. I was going to be like a cold hearted whatever. But it never lasted. Mm. I think with these people, they make that decision, then it lasts like they're, it's like they disconnect from their soul. They dissociate so deeply and, and their true self is buried so far that it seems like it shrivels up and dies according to them. Like, I don't know if that's true, but it doesn't seem to be coming back, you know? Joel 00:13:57.720 - 00:14:06.420 Yeah, yeah. What is like, I don't know how much you can speak into this, but like what is like their general self talk or is there even sel talk? Mark 00:14:08.020 - 00:15:16.940 That's a good question. I never asked that question of any of them. But what I do know is there's a lot of strategy. They're constantly strategizing because they, they in some ways, although they know other people are not like them, they also assume sometimes all people are like them. Like they have to outmaneuver and out strategize everybody. So I know a lot of that goes on. There's, there's a belief, and I've seen it in some people that underneath it all there's a lot of self hatred. So I don't know that it's conscious in their thoughts. But there's some psychologists who believe that there's so much shame and self hatred in there that the mask that they developed, the alternate personality they developed, is to protect themselves from their own shame and their own self hatred that may be present. Well, actually that's interesting now that you say that. One subject I spoke to a female narcissist did display that. Did display that self talk. That's interesting. Now you mentioned. Yeah, she had self talk and some of the self talk was about being stupid or looking, looking stupid. So. Yes, with one. Yes, that's a good question. Yeah, yeah. Joel 00:15:17.980 - 00:15:41.710 It's interesting, man, because, like, obviously, like, we all have, like, an inner critic to some degree. You know, I just. I just wonder what the states of this kind of individuals in a critic is like, has the inner critic kind of just overwhelmed the entire, you know, psyche altogether and it becomes the dominant force, and it beats the deeper, truer self down into submission where it. It's never going to see the light of day again, so to speak. Mark 00:15:41.710 - 00:16:10.330 That's interesting. That's interesting. You say that. So what I think happens is the inner critic becomes this, the true self. In other words, the real self is gone. The inner critic becomes so real that it is. It is who they think they are. And it does actually take over and supplant everything so that that alternate personality they develop, like, maybe of grandiosity or. Or the voice in their head or whatever, becomes the dominant personality. Joel 00:16:10.650 - 00:16:11.010 Yeah. Mark 00:16:11.010 - 00:17:19.620 And the real them fades away. And I remember years ago, I didn't realize I was talking to people that had narcissism, but I remember talking to somebody once and saying, like, when you dig down deep, like, what do you feel like? Just sit with me. Sit still for a second. This was somebody that doesn't meditate at all, you know? And I sat with them, and they started to wriggle, and they just looked like they were losing their mind. And I go, what. What happened? They said, when I go into that place that you called stillness, it's horrible. It's horrible. I can't. I feel insane. I have to leave. And I'm like, that's so interesting, because when I tap in, yes, I can go through layers of inner critic and layers of whatever, whatever, whatever. But then I get to a very deep place. It's very still, you know, in terms of consciousness. I can get to a place that's very still, very empty, full of everything feels connected to, like, some divine. Whatever, whatever. But there's so much beauty and stillness and softness in there. And the way this person was describing it is that it's. There's so much horrible, icky discomforts in there. Like, it feels like there was snakes and in there, you know? Yeah, but that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that for a while. Yerasimos 00:17:19.940 - 00:17:27.740 Well, it also seems like extreme nervous system dysregulation to the degree that, like, you can't even have the capacity to sit with Erasmus. Mark 00:17:27.740 - 00:17:29.220 Hold on one second. Yeah, so sorry. Joel 00:17:34.180 - 00:17:38.500 Hey, Ryan. Resuming recording Erasmus making his points again now. Yerasimos 00:17:40.260 - 00:18:08.260 So in reference to what you said, it seems like there's a severe nervous system dysregulation. As well. From the standpoint of when I think of a regulated person, one, they have capacity to move through different states, but they can hold discomfort, they can be with discomfort. And when you're talking about this person, it seems like the moment they get to this place, it's like, no, I can't, I can't do that. And they can't even sit still. They can't even be with themselves. So I don't know. That's the thing, the first thing that came to my mind. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Mark 00:18:08.260 - 00:18:44.230 I think that's true. I think that's true because they're very reactive. I mean the true psychopaths are a little less reactive because they also don't really have much anxiety. Sometimes they have no anxiety at the extreme end, but they seem, they, they can be very impulsive. The minute you say something and they have a narcissistic injury, like let's say they want something from you and you say no, they treat that like an attack on, on their, their very being. And they get very reactive and they have a narcissistic injury. I mean, I have people still shit talking me, you know, like seven years later after me pushing up against them for stuff. Yerasimos 00:18:45.270 - 00:18:45.750 Wow. Mark 00:18:45.910 - 00:19:21.490 I've had, I've had somebody that I finally snapped at because they were just being such an. And like they made an entire TV show trying to go after me. Like they're so committed to fixing the injury that they have because somehow you slighted them. Yes, that is very dysregulated. You know, like you, if you can't handle like somebody, you know, pushing back or insulting, saying no to you, saying no, like that's a, that's a problem. By the way. This is the thing that surprise me, just to jump to the bigger scale, this is why when I look at world events, I'm like these people making decisions, they're like this. Yerasimos 00:19:21.970 - 00:19:22.450 Yeah. Mark 00:19:22.770 - 00:19:28.210 You know, like if they get slighted, they want to go to war. It's insane. Yerasimos 00:19:28.850 - 00:19:30.770 It is absolutely insane, man. Joel 00:19:31.250 - 00:20:40.930 Yeah, it's, it's definitely insane, man. I mean in, in recent history, me and my wife have been privy to like some online harassment, digital harassment. And this was, this was someone that we kind of had a conflict with in a, in a hotel, neighboring hotel room who I ended up actually knowing. But for three days I didn't know who it was. And they were just like so obtrusive, so loud, random noises in the middle of the night, turning the volume super loud and super low. Then I think when they found out we had kids, they started doing it more and more. Then the final night, like, my wife, like, snapped and was like, shut the fuck up. Like, in the hotel hallway. And then later on, I figured out who this person was, actually. Actually knew them, and I messaged them to let them know. And then since that point, this human being has just been on like a. This digital harassment campaign trying to smear me, smear my wife in so many ways. It's like they. It was uncovered who they actually were. Then so much shame came up, and it's like, I just need to go on this tirade, you know, Endless tirade, and has endless energy to do it. Will make endless accounts. Like, endless accounts. Man, it's crazy. Mark 00:20:41.650 - 00:20:43.130 It's so interesting, right? They. Joel 00:20:43.130 - 00:20:43.410 And. Mark 00:20:43.410 - 00:20:47.650 And it's not logical because they think that if they can just destroy you, they'll feel better. Joel 00:20:47.970 - 00:20:48.530 Yeah. Mark 00:20:48.930 - 00:20:53.170 And they won't. Because you. Let's say. Let's say they take you out. If. Joel 00:20:53.170 - 00:20:57.090 If the person who really knows what I'm like ceases to exist, then I'll be okay again. Mark 00:20:58.850 - 00:21:24.240 That is what they feel. But then they have the memory of. Of the narcissistic injury, the memory of being yelled at, you know, that will consume them for the rest of their life. It's dark. It's. It's. There's a lot of darkness. And this is what worries me again, like, this happening at a political level. It's like, you know, think about, like, people on a lower level who want revenge. And now you've got, like, people running countries that want revenge. You know, that's, like, a little bit tricky. Yerasimos 00:21:25.280 - 00:21:26.280 Yeah, yeah. Joel 00:21:26.280 - 00:21:39.090 And I'm. And at the same time, it's like, you know, power attracts a certain kind of individual as well, you know, so, like, these. These positions are generally magnetic towards these kinds of individuals too, you know? Mark 00:21:39.090 - 00:21:48.890 Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting because I. I see a lot of people still. I have such an issue with this. People say things like, money is the root of all evil. And, like, money corrupts and power corrupts. And I'm like, no, it doesn't. Joel 00:21:49.050 - 00:21:49.610 Yeah. Mark 00:21:49.930 - 00:22:00.330 Like, look, I agree they work their way up to positions of power where they can have maximum control, but I just don't think that, like, having power makes you an. Joel 00:22:00.890 - 00:22:01.290 No. Mark 00:22:01.370 - 00:22:04.730 You know, I don't understand why. I think it both. I think it's. Joel 00:22:05.290 - 00:22:37.930 It's power that's wielded, like, immorally that I think is. Is the. Is the asshole combination. But power that is, like, gained and wielded through, like, your humanness, your. Your ability to be rational, to be discerning, to use the higher human faculties. That's someone who's become worthy of power and is able to actually handle it. But, for example, when, you know, you have this son who just inherits this empire and did nothing to work for it, then that generally can be a combination for the kind of thing that we're talking about, you know? Mark 00:22:38.170 - 00:22:49.930 Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Unearned. And also, I keep thinking about. Hold on one second. As you can hear, a fire truck, another fire truck. If we see flames, my wife will come tell me. Yerasimos 00:22:51.150 - 00:22:52.430 I mean, not great, but, you know. Mark 00:22:52.590 - 00:23:43.290 Yeah, not great, but I was going to say that also. It's funny, you know, I know some people, like, get excited about power. Like, oh, this is great. I feel terrified of power. Like, because for me, power means responsibility. Like, I'm more responsible for people. I have more of an effect on the world. I have more people. Yes. That I can help. There's more people that I might. I may hurt as well. And I'm really looking at the difference in architecture. And I know a lot of people like that. A lot of people that feel that, like, you know, when they get bigger companies and have more employees, like, it feels like a certain kind of a burden because you're like, I gotta, like, be on my best game as a human being. Yeah. Versus other people who just want so badly to be on the top and have no sense of responsibility whatsoever. They just want to feel the feeling of power. You know, It's a whole different mindset. Joel 00:23:44.110 - 00:24:09.860 Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I mean, even, like to bring back, I guess, the political point. Like, there's one spectrum of politics which is all about the performance of empathy rather than actual empathy. And so I wonder how much does, like, performing empathy and trying to perform genuine sincerity and, you know, humanistic traits, you know, come. Come into, I guess, the. The texture of the narcissist as well. I agree. Mark 00:24:09.860 - 00:24:10.420 One of them. Joel 00:24:10.660 - 00:24:12.180 The mimicry of the genuine. Mark 00:24:12.260 - 00:24:45.050 Yeah, the mimicry is interesting because, like, my. My cult leader was very good at mimicking. I'm learning more and more. You know, I've. I've now been friends with a number of actors and actresses who I later realized, oh, they're a psychopath. Like, there's nothing in there. But what they were very good at doing was mimicking. And they would sit and look at people like, you know, almost like a robot looking at somebody. And then I would see them later, like, doing the same Kinds of expressions. And most people believe that they were really feeling those things. And I was like, they're not feeling anything. Joel 00:24:45.930 - 00:24:46.290 Wow. Mark 00:24:46.290 - 00:25:27.530 They're feeling nothing. They just know that most empathic people, when they see a person that looks like they're crying or seeing a person that looks like they're in grief, like, the empath's feelings start emerging and they're just playing everybody. And that's. I think that's why I'm so obsessed with wanting to. To teach people how it works. Because just because you see somebody crying doesn't mean that they're in pain. They might be playing you. And one of the ways, you know, is how fast do they switch from that to something else? Like when you see somebody like that just looks bereft, and then suddenly on the dime, they switch. You're like, okay, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's a performance. Like, that's not real. Joel 00:25:27.850 - 00:25:28.250 Yeah. Mark 00:25:28.250 - 00:25:52.680 Because if you're sobbing, it takes you time, an empathic human being, to transition to the next emotion. Granted, yes, shock can happen fast, but going from, like, crying to completely neutral or disdain is like, what is going on? And I never understood what I was looking at when I saw people do that, you know, now. Now I understand. Like, they weren't feeling what I thought they were feeling. They were just, as you say, mimicking, and they're. And they're good at it. Yerasimos 00:25:53.400 - 00:26:02.840 And do you think as an actor that, like, you can do it to a point where it's still, like, super believable, even though the real, quote, unquote, real thing isn't. Isn't happening? Mark 00:26:02.840 - 00:26:06.080 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. I'm not going to name names, obviously, on this one. Yerasimos 00:26:06.160 - 00:26:06.680 Yeah. Mark 00:26:06.680 - 00:27:53.880 I've been on set with people and I've watched their performance. I'm like, it's just technical and it seems believable. Like, I've never met Tom Cruise before. Okay. Tom Cruise is very good at one thing. Looking stressed. Really, really stressed. But his performance is so technical and it's so precise that sometimes I wonder, is that crafting the architecture of a performance or is that actually feeling it? Like, my school of, you know, directing is like, hopefully I can have the actor understand, like, what are the feelings they would have in that situation? With a good actor, you don't have to. You just give them the situation. They will reference their past and their nervous system to find the feeling that would work for that, and it comes out naturally. But there's another way around as well. Ranieri taught this in, In. In Nixon. He started an acting program. And his whole shtick was, you don't need to feel anything. You just need to show the, the face that represents that feeling. Your, your body just needs to match the feeling. That's all you need to do. You don't have to feel anything. Now when I first heard that, I was like, well, that's interesting. I'm, I guess I didn't understand that a psychopath teaching acting. The only way they know how to teach it is how they do it in life. So if he went through his life doing that, then his acting program would be that. And what's funny is that there were a few people in the acting program that I later realized, like, had probably zero empathy that were pretty good at it, you know? So it is, it is, it is really, really fascinating. So I, yeah. I'm not saying, by the way, that Tom Cruise is a psychopath. Yerasimos 00:27:54.200 - 00:27:54.800 No, totally. Mark 00:27:54.800 - 00:27:55.600 Well, I'm just so curious. Yerasimos 00:27:55.600 - 00:28:12.760 I trained as an actor for years, and I love the craft and I love the ability to tap into different emotions. But yeah, interesting to like, observe a psych, an actual psychopath acting and knowing that they're a psychopath and just wanting to be like, is there anything that I notice, you know, that feels off? Mark 00:28:13.320 - 00:29:06.600 There are some, there are some like that. I mean, you know, I think there's value as an actor, for instance, looking in the mirror and like, doing certain things. But I also recognize, like, if you, there's, there's maybe an angle in it where you keep on doing it because you're trying to figure out what's the exact thing I need to do. If. Because let's say I'm talking to you and suddenly I, I, I look down and I wait. You might go. I think he's having an emotional moment. I think he's referencing something. Oh, he's struggling to speak. I may even look up and you might see, like, water in my eyes. And you're like, man, he is feeling something deep. I may not be like, if I don't have any of those feelings. I just know that in the middle of a story, if I suddenly look down and I look choked up, the audience is like, oh, my God, he's going through something deep. A psychopath can do that. And he's going through nothing, or she's going through nothing. Yerasimos 00:29:06.600 - 00:29:24.400 Well, there's behavioral elements to storytelling and so just shifting the behavior. And then we think of cinema. And like, you put music in the background and you have an actor who looks a certain way and the music's playing, and then it cuts to someone else. Like, there's obviously ways to make it be more real, even if the actor isn't maybe truly tapping into something. Mark 00:29:25.040 - 00:29:28.080 So are you still. Are you still acting or just. That was the past. Yerasimos 00:29:28.160 - 00:29:32.640 No, I did it for. Yeah, over a decade. I kind of stopped a decade ago. I mean, yeah, this. Joel 00:29:32.640 - 00:29:34.800 This is his current role. Pretending to be. Yerasimos 00:29:35.200 - 00:29:37.920 That's a good podcast host and a coach. Mark 00:29:38.350 - 00:29:38.750 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:29:39.550 - 00:29:41.390 And a bougie homesteader. Joel 00:29:41.870 - 00:29:44.510 He hasn't stopped acting. It just became more meta. Yerasimos 00:29:44.910 - 00:30:48.640 Yeah. No, but it's like, I think what. I don't know, what I loved as an. As an actor was I loved exploring the human condition. You know, I loved exploring. I love tapping in different parts of me. I love embracing the parts that maybe were repressed growing up in service of telling stories. And so, like, the dance between the light and the dark, you know, I enjoyed. I don't know, that has to relate to my Gemini nature, but I love the dance of opposites, and I think I love that from a personal growth standpoint, is that so many people are repressed. They can't tune into something within themselves, and they. They just, like, project onto others. And so I like. I think the more I. At least my training was very psychological and consciousness based, the more I embraced within myself, it made me more compassionate, you know, ultimately, because I got to know more of myself, you know, especially the parts that maybe I didn't want to know or were in the darkness or I had shame around. It allowed me to see people in a certain light. For instance, even just knowing that there is a part of me that can fucking lie, cheat and steal, you know, like, fucking. I know I could. And so by knowing that and tuning into it, I. Mark 00:30:48.640 - 00:30:49.200 You can. Yerasimos 00:30:49.200 - 00:31:12.520 You can almost sniff it out in other people more so on one degree. I'm not saying all the time, but there is that being able to, I guess, just know yourself on a deep level and not just living in, like, the love and light land, I think, really, I don't know, allows you to, you know, handle life and respond hopefully appropriately to different situations because of that. So I. I enjoyed that element of it. Joel 00:31:12.520 - 00:31:43.490 Yeah, like. Like when you were mentioning before how, you know, you gave an example of someone who's like, sobbing, then all of a sudden is just like, kind of okay, again, as an example of kind of, you know, a narcissistic trait potentially. And at the same time, you know, that is almost. Almost a signpost of like a regulated nervous system as well, being able to move through different states more fluidly. Without getting stuck and trapped for days and then, you know, taking a while to come out of a free state and into more of, you know, eventual vagal kind of state. So again, there's, like, so much nuance. Yerasimos 00:31:43.810 - 00:31:44.970 There's nuance to it. Mark 00:31:44.970 - 00:32:04.120 I think it's. It's interesting you say that. I think I like what you're saying. The transition, you know, regulating between different. Different emotions, which I think is great because there's an eye that is not identifying with any single one or is moving through it. I think what I'm talking about is it's so sudden. It's like, how the hell did that happen? Joel 00:32:04.200 - 00:32:04.600 Yeah. Mark 00:32:04.600 - 00:32:05.200 You know. Yeah. Yerasimos 00:32:05.200 - 00:32:07.600 You have to almost have to see it and be there to go. Okay, that's. Mark 00:32:07.600 - 00:32:48.560 Yeah, that's a little too abrupt. It's. It's really shocking. But actually, this brings me to your response, what you were saying about, you know, digging into all the darkness and the shadow. I think that is really important, and I think that. I think it's super healthy, and I think that's something that acting does help you do. For me, writing helps me do as well. Directing helps me do it. Like, I can tap into some very dark places. And also, I think with some of the stuff I've been through, I've been through so much rage that I'm not afraid of it anymore. You know, Like, I've. There was a time in 2017 when I realized what Keith Renee had done to my friends. I was like, I'm gonna get my sword out of storage and I'm gonna look for. You know, like, I felt. And I felt these feelings. I was running them in my head, by the way. Yerasimos 00:32:48.800 - 00:33:19.080 Oh, yeah. It's like. It's like you go on these mind imagination adventures, and then you're like, literally plan. You're like, planning, oh, no, you're horrible, doing horrible things. And obviously, the thing that separates, like, a healthier person is that we're not acting on all the thoughts and the imagination that we do. But. But it's like, whoa, that shit's alive in me. Like, where did that thought come from? Like, and sometimes it's the most random moments. You're just, like, hanging out, like a beautiful sunny day. And then, like, this thought, this image pops in. You're just like, what? Joel 00:33:19.240 - 00:33:19.760 That's just. Mark 00:33:19.760 - 00:33:20.560 That's just you, bro. Joel 00:33:20.560 - 00:33:21.080 That's just you. Yerasimos 00:33:21.080 - 00:33:21.880 It might. It might just. Mark 00:33:21.880 - 00:33:23.720 No, it's me too. It's me. Yerasimos 00:33:24.460 - 00:34:31.920 You know, But. But I think again, the healthier person is like, oh, hello. Like, just like, okay, you exist in me. That's it. Yeah. And I think the people that want to just keep pushing and a lot of this stuff is happening unconsciously, but it's just like, no, no, no earmuffs, you know? Yeah, it's not me. Like, that's not healthy. And that just leads to like, so much like, unhealthy relating and projection, like I mentioned before. And I think part of this journey of growth because again, you know, a lot of people that enter into these cult like things, they're. They're curious about the human condition, they want to learn, they want to heal, you know, But I think we, we talk about these words wholeness and integration, but like these words mean something. But what is the actuality and embodied experience of it? And I think it's a lot of what we're talking about is just really getting to know these archetypal energies and obviously they're a little bit more personal to us in our life and just, okay, you exist. It's like, it's like being a conductor with a full orchestra as opposed to just a few instruments. Like, you're just like, okay, I have all these instruments at my disposal, but hopefully like, I'm playing a tune that's going to lead to, you know, health and, and good, good deeds. Mark 00:34:32.240 - 00:36:09.650 That's so. It's so important because, you know, in making this Instaguru series about Bentinu Masara and the organization, one of the things I've seen with the people that have left and the people that are still in so much of what was being done to them is they were being dissociated. You know, like, there's low vibe and high vibe, and you shouldn't have any low vibe. And I'm of the school of like, you should have whatever vibe is present at the moment. Right. And so people were being punished for having like low vibe or perceived low vibe. So everybody was starting to. This is what happens in a cult. I see it in political parties where everybody's so constrained and bound up that they can't say this and they can't say this. I see this in, in activist movements where everybody's policing everybody. Activist movements are very much like cults to me. Like, there's ways you should be behaving and if you're not behaving that way, there's a problem. And now we have to like bury that or like, you know, have a struggle session with everybody to like, figure out what's wrong with you. And everybody just starts to press their stuff so much and it's funny. Yep. You know, sometimes I've, I listen to, I watch people that are still in different cults. You know, they always do some statement where they're going to come out and talk about like how the defectors and the so called whistleblowers are just victims who couldn't like master themselves and you know, who didn't have what it took. And they'll start talking about like what's wrong with all the people that are blowing the whistle? And I'll watch them. They're like robots. They're so controlled and so tight. I'm like, what is going on inside of you? Because it feels like you're so disconnected from yourself. And that's one of the things with narcissism as well. Of course. Dissociation is a huge thing. Joel 00:36:09.810 - 00:36:10.290 Yeah. Mark 00:36:10.850 - 00:36:27.170 I'm wondering, and I've been talking to some neuroscientists about this. I'm wondering if a lot of the problems we're seeing right now is, is because of dissociation, is because people are not in touch with what they're feeling and they think what they're feeling is bad. As opposed to what you're feeling is what you're feeling. Joel 00:36:27.490 - 00:36:34.210 Yeah. I think, I think Carl Jung answered this in a single sentence when he said neurosis is always a substitute for legitimate suffering. Mark 00:36:37.410 - 00:36:39.290 Interesting. I hadn't really. Yerasimos 00:36:39.290 - 00:36:51.970 Can you just feel like it's okay to feel down, it's okay to feel angry, it's okay to feel sad and like, and judgmental. Oh, God forbid you judge someone like, oh, it's. You're the least spiritual person on the planet. Joel 00:36:52.210 - 00:37:06.510 Yeah. But even like the avoidance of low vibe within spiritual communities is this unwillingness to experience legitimate human suffering with which all of us have to grapple with at certain seasons within our life, within a year, within a month. Yerasimos 00:37:06.590 - 00:37:06.990 Right. Joel 00:37:07.150 - 00:37:39.760 But the refusal to look at the depths. Exactly. The refusal to look there and turn there, that is the, the groundwork and the foundational soil for dissociation, for disconnection, for, for everything that we're talking about. And even your example before where like, you know, this potential narcissist couldn't sit still and he was just afraid to go there. That's because the shadows like become so full of all these proverbial demons and dragons and snakes like you mentioned, that, you know, being put in a circumstance where that might have to be faced is equivalent to death. Mark 00:37:40.640 - 00:37:44.320 Agree, agree. I, I do think dissociation is a big issue, you know. Yerasimos 00:37:44.320 - 00:37:44.680 Yeah. Mark 00:37:44.680 - 00:40:38.590 Like I keep on looking at like people that do Terrible things to other people. They are. They've dehumanized the other person to the point that they've reframed them into the. Into such an enemy that they're not human anymore. And to do that you have to dissociate from yourself as well. Because if you're associated you might see the other person on the other end of your gun for instance, as like a person that has a family, had a mother, had a. Whatever. I do think association has a lot to do with it. And I see that a lot in, you know, in the cults that I've been looking at the. And this is what's interesting. The reason the cults behave the way they behave is because the blueprint is the pathology of the leader. So if you have a leader that can't look at their own shadow, that even a leader that's had some kind of peak experience some, some moment of beautiful awareness which some of these people I really believe have, and then they go into spiritual psychosis instead of actually integrating it and unifying with it. And what they do is they bury everything that's not of God or not of this or not of that that should. It sits there and then they're diddling their students, you know, because they on some unresolved from when they were 12 and some girl didn't want to like, you know, go out with them or whatever it is that's never been integrated. And so that pathology of the leader now infects the entire organization. So now you're walking around with a bunch of mini me and I was like this too, that are not feeling a lot. I mean I will tell you when I woke up from. From Nexium, I woke up from the recognition that I was feeling quite dull and controlled like emotionally, which is not good for an artist. And as I began to like come out of it, all these things started to like rage and grief and like all this intense stuff came out. And it's funny because I spoke to a cult exit counselor and one of the first things he said to me was all the you thought you resolved in that cult, you were in all the psychological stuff, it's been there waiting for you, it's now going to come out. And I was like really? Is that true? Ultra. Like it all came roaring out. All the stuff I thought I'd resolved and integrated, all I had done is compartmentalize it because that's what the so called tech, the education did to you. Like you thought you'd overcome things because you'd buried it so far away and was so dissociated from those feelings, you thought you didn't have them. Then you come out and there's horror and like, oh my God, these people are terrible. I've been involved in something horrible and evil and, and like all these feelings start to come out, which to some people feels like the end of the world. But like, that's just all the stuff buried, like finally coming out, which is amazing in the right, in the right environment. And then you start to feel stuff again. And that's a lot of what people go through when they come out of narcissistic abuse is they start to feel a lot more than they may have felt because they've been so buried and controlled and in survival, you know. Yerasimos 00:40:39.320 - 00:42:18.660 Yeah, well said, well said. I actually think too, like as you evolve and grow and this is just my personal opinion, you know, I obviously don't have it all figured out, but like life is just richer and fuller. Like you feel more actually like when I think back to like when I was much younger and I was living in a more one season world as a good people pleaser, you know, like, oh yeah, everything's great. Oh, cool, cool. Let's all be friends, let's do like. But like when you, when that stuff bubbles up and you start meeting these different parts of you that have been hidden in the shadows, like, it's intense. But I think as you go through life, like, I'm not feeling awesome all the time, like, but I, but I move through it. Like I can respond to probate. I could hold it. In a way, the highs and the lows and how long you stay there aren't as intense. It's just this more fluid nature of self relating. Like your intrapersonal process just feels differently. And I, and like you feel more human and you accept your humanity and you go, oh, wow, I'm a little blue today. What, what, what is this saying to me? Can with it? Can I sit with it? Oh, wow, I'm driving and someone cut me off and I just experienced some deep anger. Okay, can I sit with it for a little bit, maybe a few seconds and then just go on my merry way? As opposed to like, we are living in this compartmentalized state and we can't kind of tap in to more of us. And so I, I think like the signpost that you're quote unquote healing is that you're feeling more and you, you, you can move through it in a, in a certain way and it's not about like shutting off. I'M never going to be angry again. I'm never going to be sad. If I'm never sad again. I'm healthy and conscious and everything's going well for me in life. And I just think that's absolute. Joel 00:42:19.140 - 00:42:31.700 It is. And what you're speaking to is like the blueprint of every spiritual self help book or like, manifestation book ever written, is that eventually I'm going to end up in this state where I'm never feeling as sad again, never having a bad day again, you know? Mark 00:42:32.020 - 00:42:34.660 Yeah. Like, trap, man. It's a trap. Yerasimos 00:42:34.900 - 00:43:06.150 Like, and I get it. I understand certain elements of, like, you know, your baseline state and what you think about and how you move through the world is going to impact your external world. But to be like, oh, if I'm all of a sudden pissed off at some contractor who fucked me over, like, I'm all of a sudden going to just attract negativity in my life. Like, I can't have those thoughts. Like, it's. It's such bullshit to me. Like, it's okay. I'm allowed to be annoyed and pissed off and frustrated and share that. You know, Again, it's probably an issue if I'm in that state for 10 days in a row. Mark 00:43:06.470 - 00:44:50.160 Yeah. Yeah. But it's interesting. Like, I've come to the realization because I was watching the way I would do things. I would have a feeling and then I would. I would sort of unconsciously say, I don't want that. And then I realized one day, like, all I'm doing is playing peekaboo with a feeling I actually have. So trying to push the feeling away. It's. I'm having it already. Yeah. Like, it's there already. So why not just stop playing the game of. I don't want to have the feeling that I'm already having. And I feel like one of the. I had a very profound moment in 2021 when I was doing a lot of meditation and stuff. You know, I was. I was in living in Portugal at the time and I got on a bus to Lisbon and I just remember feeling all these things on the bus, you know, irritation and this and that and the other. And I just had a moment of like, just allowing everything to be, like, just come all my feelings. Just come back home. Come back to papa. Just come, come back, man. I had this like, pop out, pop in experience of such unity. And the entire rest of the day I was walking around in this amazing daze, like, as I was doing my stuff in Lisbon of just like, holy, this is what it Feels like to be alive, like allowing every single thing and not playing the games, that I'm not feeling this thing or shouldn't feel this thing or this feeling is bad or that feeling is good. It was one of the most alive feelings I've ever had. And what's amazing is it, it kind of stayed. Yeah. You know, like on a baseline, it kind of stayed where I feel less afraid of the feelings that I used to have. Like, I sometimes would get afraid of. Like, I don't. I'm afraid of depression because I had a lot of depression as a kid. I'm afraid of depression one day saying, okay, let's be depressed here, here we go, here we are. Be, be depressed. Yerasimos 00:44:50.240 - 00:44:50.880 Feel it. Mark 00:44:50.960 - 00:45:11.930 I was like, huh. And then it, and then it changed into something else, you know, and so I'm learning more and more that the, the compartmentalization and the, the feeling of having to push things down concretizes them, makes them harder to break. When you don't do that and you invite them back out, it feels like everything feels more fluid. I know what I'm saying makes sense to you guys. Yerasimos 00:45:11.930 - 00:45:32.730 It totally makes sense. I think about like life force energy, like you're allowing things to move. Like how much energy on some level does it take to keep things locked away and to keep things compartmentalized as opposed to like you said, like, oh, just let it be. And then what is it? How does it shift and move and then how does that impact you on a day to day basis? What you shared has been my personal experience as well. Joel 00:45:32.730 - 00:45:43.730 Just like metaphorically. Think about how much energy it takes physically to keep like a flotation device underwater. Right. To suppress it, to keep it under, as opposed to like letting it, you know, come to the surface and just be there. Mark 00:45:44.210 - 00:45:44.930 100%. Yerasimos 00:45:45.010 - 00:46:14.940 Yeah. Do you think the modern world. Because this idea towards being with yourself and being okay with silence and solitude just feels like it's less and less and less because we are, you know, we have devices all around us and our phones and non stop that we can't tap in, that that's adding to the dissociation. I don't want to blame them because they're. No, no, no. You feel like on some level it's, it's like, can people even consciously create the space for that? But it's like we're inundated with all this, these distractions nonstop. Mark 00:46:14.940 - 00:47:26.850 Yeah. So let me just quickly tell you a story. So it was last year in, in. We were in Portugal and we had this power failure in Spain and Portugal. And we lost power for 24 hours. It was the best day ever. And there was a lot of panic at first. And I remember, like, going outside. Everybody went outside. Everybody started to talk to each other. Everybody just had candles and they go sit at the cafes and, you know, there wasn't any power, but you could still open the wine because the wine was kind of cold enough and the beer was warming up. So everybody was just having, like, it was this weird, idyllic experience. And I thought, that's incredible. That's what so what we've become because of electricity and devices and everything is so far from this. And then I heard somebody saying, you guys may have heard this as well. Somebody talked about, like, we, we're not experiencing boredom enough anymore. And I was like, oh, that's profound. And so my wife and I have been playing with, like, let's just allow ourselves to feel that emptiness, you know? Because what happened is one day I was, I had to go, like, you know, go to the bathroom, and I took my phone with me, and my wife was like, why are you taking your phone with you? Like, I don't fucking know. It's a habit. She says, don't try not to like, oh, Jesus. Yeah, because I'm the guy that would go take a crap and read the shampoo bottle. Joel 00:47:26.930 - 00:47:31.370 You know, the only guy that does that, dude. Yeah, I mean, you're fine. Yeah, the shampoo bottle. Mark 00:47:31.370 - 00:48:12.470 But there's something about, and I hate to make this about crappy, but there's something about, just go take a dump and fucking don't read anything. Just be with yourself on your bodily whatever. And I do think it's true that I think the devices and everything have made us less okay with stillness. And I don't call it boredom, though, because it's not really boredom. I think it's stillness. And when you just feel the stillness, you tap into fucking infinity. Because there's a lot in there. There's a lot. There's a lot going on inside. If you just get beyond the need to be busy and you suddenly feel the vastness or whatever that's in there. So I'm. I guess my answer is yes, I think that's true. I think that's true. Yerasimos 00:48:13.110 - 00:48:29.110 I really, I, I, I, I have moments where I don't bring it with me, the, the phone to the bathroom. But it's like this habit that I just do. And then, and then, and then I'm. All of a sudden I'm like, I just been, like, looking at. For 30 minutes, and my ass is not. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'm like, what the. Mark 00:48:30.150 - 00:48:30.550 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:48:30.550 - 00:48:32.070 Like, just don't bring it. Mark 00:48:32.070 - 00:48:32.630 But it's like. Yerasimos 00:48:32.630 - 00:48:39.280 It's like. It's. Yeah, it's tough. We had a conversation with our friend about this subject on the podcast a while ago. I think he's in Austin, too. Nathaniel. Mark 00:48:39.280 - 00:48:39.760 Yeah. Joel 00:48:41.040 - 00:48:47.120 Look at the quote was. You know, modern mastery is being able to. Yeah. Do a. Without your. Without your phone. Mark 00:48:47.200 - 00:50:15.840 It's true. I need a T shirt that says that I need a T shirt. But I. I do think it's true. And I feel like more and more. Especially, like, with AI and all the. That's going on, I feel like the only way to survive is literally to go inside because it's getting so insane out there. Like, it's in. It's insane. Yeah. I feel like the only way is just to go and connect. You know what's weird? I started shooting. I haven't done that a long time. I started shooting. I go to the gun range like, once a week. It's weird. It's like a meditation for me because I need to find the stillness to be accurate. You know, I need to not have a busy mind. I have to be very present. Guns are dangerous. I have to be really there. And it's this really interesting feeling of, like. Oh, I used to feel this as a kid. Not the. Not the shooting part, but the just letting yourself be really still and feeling your breathing. And, like, there's something about being at a range where you have to be very focused because safety is, like, super, super, super important. Like, you cannot not. You cannot get distracted at all. And there's something about that presence that's been really interesting. And so now I'm going. Taking from the range to, like, back into my life of, like, okay, but what if I do it here? What if I treat this moment as though it's that important as well? Just this moment of being present as well. I. I think that's going to be the solution because. Because shit's getting so authenticity, man. It's. It feels like a dying breed right now. Joel 00:50:16.400 - 00:50:23.720 I think we're just speaking to, like, just the feeling of being, like, locked in, you know, and locked into something other other than a device, you know? Yerasimos 00:50:23.720 - 00:50:49.260 Yeah, but I like that you said that about the guns because, like, that's been my experience. Like, people have looked at me like I've had two heads when I'm, like, shooting a. Like a spiritual experience for me, you know, because of that. Like, you're holding something that can literally take a person's life, you know, like, and so being there and noticing what's happening inside of you and that level of focus, like, I was so blown away the first time I had that experience. I was like, whoa, that's intense. Mark 00:50:49.900 - 00:50:59.340 Yeah, I'm loving it. And I'm. I'm hanging out with people. I'm in Austin right now, but I'm hanging out with people that are like that, you know. Yeah, of course there's yeehaws or whatever, but there's people that are like. Yerasimos 00:51:00.060 - 00:51:00.380 And. Mark 00:51:00.380 - 00:51:45.740 And honestly, I've. I. I like soldiers. I like soldiers that have. That have mastered stuff, you know, they're very, very cool people. Some of the people capable of the worst violence and imaginable necessary, I suppose violence are some of the nicest people I've ever met, you know, and people like, who, you know, would have your back. So, I mean, it's weird. That's. People that have gone into that zone. By the way, just speaking of, I. I heard somewhere recently about Navy SEALs, and what makes them so interesting as a team is that they get to the point as a team that they don't have to talk to each other anymore. They literally know where everybody is. They can feel when someone's about to do something, and so everything becomes telepathic. And I was like, that is fascinating, that level of training where you get past all the technology and you're just an organism. Joel 00:51:46.460 - 00:51:49.270 Well, you are the technology or the technology. Mark 00:51:49.350 - 00:52:10.310 Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. It amazes me. I've had a little bit on film sets, you know, when you're working with a crew that you work with a long time and you're trying to execute like a complex scene or a complex shot, you have that. But I've never. I've never been to the military, so I don't know what that's like, but that's. That sounds pretty profound to me, that kind of connection where you're all feeling each other, you know, it's pretty amazing. Yerasimos 00:52:10.870 - 00:52:25.810 Yeah, it's interesting too, what you said. I think a lot of people that are trained to, let's say, whether with weapons or even just fighting and like, they know what they're capable of and so they're not trying to front, you know, I mean, you'll have. Joel 00:52:25.810 - 00:52:26.250 You'll still have. Yerasimos 00:52:26.250 - 00:52:42.290 You'll still have your handful of people that do that, but the ones that I think are really trained, they. They're not out there looking for fights. They're not out there looking. They're. They're they're actually gentle in some ways, too, because they know the fierceness and that they could end. End a life with their hands or with a weapon. Mark 00:52:43.050 - 00:53:06.850 Yeah. That's been my interesting. I trust more, you know, the big. The big dudes, like the, you know, the big Marines. And I trust those guys more than the kind of wiry person who's never been trained because that. That. The erratic person who's got no training. Like, I'm more worried about them. Yeah. Than I am about. About the soldier. What's the something about this? Joel 00:53:06.850 - 00:53:08.890 Be a warrior in a God and then a God in a war. Mark 00:53:10.960 - 00:53:12.480 Yeah. Yeah. Yerasimos 00:53:12.560 - 00:53:31.840 Well, you see those videos online. Like, I always like to follow. I follow certain accounts where they're. They have like, the videos of, like, going down, you know, and like to have situational awareness. But you see these people that aren't trained and you're like, get me away from these people. Like, they don't know. It's like they don't know how to handle the situation. You don't know a gun will go off. Joel 00:53:31.840 - 00:53:32.240 They're. Yerasimos 00:53:32.320 - 00:53:37.320 You're gonna stumble with them and they're gonna fall. Crap your head over. Yeah. Mark 00:53:37.480 - 00:53:38.400 And it's also funny. Yerasimos 00:53:38.400 - 00:53:38.760 It's funny. Mark 00:53:38.760 - 00:54:31.480 I'm finding this with. With like in. In the. The world of interacting with people that have come out of cults, you know, there's a. There's an interesting shorthand. People that have been through terrible things. Like, you connect because you all know you've been through like, some. Some hard. Some terrible shit. And there's an understanding, and you do start to feel a bit different in some ways. And I understand finally now why some military people feel like they. They're not. They don't feel the same, you know, because they've been through things that nobody else can understand. Some of us in the cult world are beginning to feel a little bit of that as well. Like, if somebody says, well, why did you join that thing? I mean, like, how did you not see it? I'm like, it's whatever. I'm not going to have that conversation anymore. You know, I tried to at first defend all the choices that we've all made, and then I realized, oh, you're not asking me to understand. You're asking me because you want to feel better about yourself, you know, so, great. So I'm an idiot. I made bad choices. You can feel wonderful about yourself, you know? Yerasimos 00:54:32.590 - 00:54:32.910 Yeah. Mark 00:54:34.270 - 00:54:39.310 What do you think started in such a weird place and ended up in such a strange place? This is a fascinating conversation. Yerasimos 00:54:39.470 - 00:54:44.510 Well, I love These kinds of conversations where we're just kind of rapping on things that we think, you know, are important and interesting. Joel 00:54:44.590 - 00:54:45.070 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:54:45.070 - 00:54:45.870 And all that. Joel 00:54:46.430 - 00:55:26.010 I've got a question, like you mentioned before, that going through your cult experience with your narcissistic cult leader was ultimately a catalyst for deeper inner work for you on the. On the other side of it. And without validating the experience, without spiritual. Spiritually bypassing. Do you think yourself and others who have had these experiences, if they chose to, would have gotten to these depths of feeling, unresolved things, etc. If it wasn't for the narcissistic experience? And all that being said, I do believe people can definitely do inner work without having to experience narcissistic abuse. But I'm just curious, you know, your perspective personally. Mark 00:55:27.610 - 00:55:34.970 That's interesting. I. I can't speak for other people. I mean, some people have said that to me. A lot of people I talk to currently are still in the midst of so much pain. Yerasimos 00:55:35.290 - 00:55:35.850 Yeah. Mark 00:55:35.850 - 00:57:45.280 The talking about what was great about it is not where they want to go. I'm happy to talk about that for myself. Yeah, I'm a stubborn person. So I think I needed a pretty serious shock to finally turn in the direction that I was unwilling to turn most of my life, you know, which is. Instead of turning to look outside for who has the answer, because apparently I don't. To finally turn and go, like, what if I do? You know, I. I think I needed. I needed enough of a shock to do that. You know, like when people have some kind of health scare and they finally pay attention. Maybe that was like that for me. I don't know if what I'm about to say is true, but I feel. Well, this part is true. I feel like I'm becoming the person I always wanted to become. That's true. I think that I had to go through whatever I went through to become the person to. To start becoming the kind of person that I always wanted to be. I can't see how it could have gone another way, but I don't know because I didn't take. You know, I took this path. So I don't know what all the other paths are, but I feel like I have a deep sense of compassion for people that. That go through terrible things. I can sit with their pain more than I could ever before because I was so busy avoiding my own pain that I couldn't sit with theirs. I understand what it's like to give myself away to. To give up my sense of authority and to sort of take the center of me and put it out here so far that I lost myself. I've now done that. So now that it's coming back to me or feels like it's in me, I have a deep appreciation for it. It's a bit like, you know, people say, oh, Mark, you make movies about such dark things and, like, isn't it terrible? Isn't your life, like, all miserable? No. Now I love goodness more than ever before because now I have. I have a true comparison. I've seen some really, really evil now, you know, And I've also in my life, documented some, like, horrible, horrible things. So now I love. I love love, and I love goodness. Like, I don't care what sex you are, what nationality you are, like, what color you are. I don't give a fucking shit. Are you a good person? That's all I care about. Yerasimos 00:57:45.360 - 00:57:45.840 Yeah. Mark 00:57:46.000 - 00:58:26.610 Now I appreciate that so much more because I've seen evil now. I appreciate being back inside myself. And I know that's not actual. Like, you can't actually be outside of yourself. You're always there. I get that. But the feeling of being outside of myself so far that now that I feel myself feeling like I'm back, it's so profound and so beautiful, and I'm so happy that if that's what it took, great, I'll do it again, you know, in whatever way to. To feel what I now feel. So, for me, yes. But, yeah, you know, I. I hate to do the whole thing as well, my teacher, you know, but it's like, reality is reality. Yerasimos 00:58:26.610 - 00:58:42.150 Like, this is where path this is. This is the life that you're living and what you've gone through. And so it's like, can you accept it and go, okay, this is what I've gone through. What am I gonna. What's gonna come from this? How do I get deeper in touch with myself? How do I alchemize it? And also, like, the work that you're doing. Joel 00:58:42.230 - 00:58:42.710 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:58:42.710 - 00:59:01.570 Like, you are creating media. Your. Your projects are shining the light on things that a lot more people have experiencing and are experiencing. So it's like, yeah, you're like, oh, I went through this, so I can. But that's life, you know, you go through, and hopefully you take it and you learn from it and you can share of service. Joel 00:59:02.050 - 00:59:34.990 I mean, it's, you know, it's. It's the beautiful. You know, the wound and the gift are never really far apart, you know, and having to face the wound ultimately will lead you to, you know, having deeper connection with that gift and being able to bring it forward. And I think, you know, the question that's always with us, or at least for anyone who's on a growth oriented bath, is like, why do I, Why did I make the choices that I made? Why did I end up in the situations that I ended up in? Why did I project this onto that person? And that's always the catalyst for the next stage of evolution. Yeah, yeah. Mark 00:59:35.230 - 01:00:52.120 And it's interesting because, you know, I've asked myself that a lot because a lot of people ask me that and you know, it. I always go back to for some reason and there. I'm sure I could figure it out eventually or I don't really care, but for some reason I thought that goodness was outside of me, you know, and that somebody had the answer, how to get there. And I developed that idea as a child, you know, and to finally. I mean, it took me decades to go like, wait, wait, no, no, no, no. It's inside of me and I'm projecting it out there. That was like a revelation to me that the thing I'd been seeking was always here. And I'd read the Alchemist like seven times. I understood the metaphor, at least intellectually, and I understood the idea that, you know, what you're seeking for, you're already there and you'll eventually realize that there was no distance and what. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then it happened and I'm like, oh, that's how it was. I'm. The treasure was in the church all along. You know, I just, I don't, I don't think you can think your way through those things. I mean, I think, yeah, I, I think I just had to, had to go through it and I had to like, disabuse myself the idea that somehow the answer was that it was outside. Yeah, man. Joel 01:00:52.280 - 01:01:29.010 This is like why like the old way of thinking is so important to me. And by the old way, I think by the old way of thinking, I mean, like the idea that we speak about often, that like every human soul is born for a reason, you know, every, every single incarnation is this perfectly timed occasion because you have unique gifts which your life needs to culminate and bring forth within you. And if each of us can just cultivate this idea that there's this deeper living. I am this deeper living myth. My birth is a deeper living myth. There is a map, a blueprint imprinted on my soul and my life is that, you know. Mark 01:01:29.010 - 01:02:11.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And, and I also. It's funny, I'm having this thought a lot. Society seems to be currently designed to push against that message. And, like, I'm not saying it's by design, but I think some of it is. I do think we're up against. We're up against a level of psyop that is wanting us disconnected. It feels like this beast that just wants us to not feel these things and not connect to each other. That's what I'm. I'm actually loving some of the stuff I'm seeing on Instagram about how people came to America for the World cup. And, like, everybody's just realizing America is not as bad as we were told it is. Yerasimos 01:02:11.380 - 01:02:15.440 I love the Japanese guy eating like. Like barbecue. Texas barbecue. Mark 01:02:15.440 - 01:02:52.610 That was amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. And I just keep on thinking, you know, and people say this, like, if it wasn't for the politicians, you know, this is how the world would be. And I'm like, I think that might be true. Yes, of course there's fanatics and whatever, but the politicians and the psyops and shit, that's making stuff really bad. Like, we just want to connect, you know, So I feel that there's. There are those forces as well, but I'm also aware, you know, I'm in Austin right now, so there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of truthers here, right? And the truth is, you know, I suppose to some degree, I might be one of them as well, but, like, there's a lot of obsession with, like, the dark forces. Yerasimos 01:02:53.330 - 01:02:53.850 I know. Mark 01:02:53.850 - 01:03:22.210 I'm like, okay, but. Okay, but, you know, again, that's like, just putting it out there. Like, we got to negotiate the dark. You're gonna navigate the dark forces. We gotta push against the dark forces. That's not what I'm feeling. What I'm feeling is, like, that's there. And the only antidote that I think exists is you have to connect to yourself and to. And to others. Otherwise, you know, whatever that is happening out there will actually take over, you know? But, yeah, I. I think, you know, this. You guys have seen this. This obsession right now. Yerasimos 01:03:25.170 - 01:03:52.700 Yeah, we talk about on the podcast all the time. It's been happening for a long time, and I think we. We keep moving in the other direction of, like, knowing yourself, loving yourself, aligning with people that honor you for who you are, that aren't trying to make you something else and giving your gifts in the world, you know, and. Yeah, and enjoying the beauty. Like, there's so much beauty in this world. There's so much awesomeness. Like, I love connecting with other people. I love seeing these things that are happening in the World Cup. Mark 01:03:52.700 - 01:03:53.020 Right. Yerasimos 01:03:53.020 - 01:03:53.500 You know? Mark 01:03:53.740 - 01:03:54.220 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:03:54.220 - 01:04:34.550 Like, yeah, again, it doesn't mean I stick my head completely in the sand, but it's like, I'm not giving all this energy to, like, just look outside and see problems everywhere. I just don't. Like, yeah, like, I'll play with my cats for three hours and go in the garden and have conversations with Joel and do the work that we're doing. Like, I don't need to know every single thing that's happening in every negative thing now. Maybe 20 years ago, when I was, like, going down rabbit holes all the time, that was the phase of my life. I'm not in that phase anymore. And I care more about empowerment. And what are you building? What are you grateful for? And how are you communing with other people in real life, not just on computers. Mark 01:04:34.870 - 01:04:36.710 Yeah. 100. Joel 01:04:37.110 - 01:05:32.960 Yeah. And that, that, that psyop that you were speaking to, you know, that wants to, I guess, destroy this idea that we're all unique individual souls with unique gifts and every. Every birth is a, you know, monumental occasion. For me, that syp is simply collectivism, man. And this collectivism is this idea that we need to continually sacrifice our deeper selves in order to appease people outside of us and appease the broader group. And it's that real collective harmony comes from you being as small and as broken as possible when the truth of the matter is the exact opposite. When you walk your authentic path, when you be your unique self, when you bring your gifts forward, when you are rationally selfish in the sense of simply thinking, my authentic desires matter and I'm allowed to pursue those with my life, then real, healthy community actually has an opportunity to flourish. Mark 01:05:33.280 - 01:05:35.040 But I agree, the root of all. Joel 01:05:35.040 - 01:05:52.240 Religion, the root of all spirituality, the root of all, you know, political collectivism is this idea that I need to self sacrifice in order to generate harmony, when really all it ever does is generate the deepest disharmony possible within myself, never allowing real harmony to be possible. Mark 01:05:53.050 - 01:06:08.010 I agree, but. And also not a but. But also I see collectivism as a psyop being run by people with terrible pathologies. Because the people that want control, and they have these pathologies, they want control, they're messianic, they believe they're God, whatever. Yerasimos 01:06:08.249 - 01:06:08.729 Yeah. Mark 01:06:08.970 - 01:06:46.490 They need people to believe in the kind of collectivism because it keeps them weak. You know, like I'm looking at in this cult that I'm currently studying. I'm looking at like, the Bentino Musaro Instagram. One of the things he talks about is he. He talks to some of. To some of the people inside. This is what they've reported that they've said that he said that what he wants is a bunch of empty women around him. Empty. I was like, so interested in that. Like, what kind of person wants a bunch of empty women? Like, no personality, just kind of like hot, you know, likeable, whatever that pathology. Yerasimos 01:06:46.490 - 01:06:47.050 If you. Mark 01:06:47.050 - 01:06:54.650 If you go up to the world stage, if people like that exist, they want a population that's just like a bunch of NPCs, basically. Joel 01:06:54.730 - 01:06:55.210 Yeah. Mark 01:06:55.210 - 01:09:03.170 Collectivism is a perfect glue to keep people disabled. It is the perfect glue. And people are thinking, no, this time we'll do it differently, motherfucker. I saw that happen in. In South Africa. Yeah, I saw it happen in Mozambique. You know, when I was much younger, my father was, as I think I mentioned, was an intelligence. And I would sometimes go and see him in. In Mozambique. And it's, you know, interesting because at that point, the Soviets promised the people of Mozambique, like, you're gonna have a house and a car and like, everything the white man has, you're gonna have. And of course, the people were like, fantastic. The Russians came in, they just obliterated everything. And they ended up using the locals as experiments for them, for their medical students. They would send their medical students to Mozambique and they would be able to do whatever to the population. I saw some of these hospitals was absolutely horrible. And I realized, like, oh, they sold. They sold them a dream. They enabled them to take over, and then they mistreated them even worse. The same thing happened in South Africa. You know, people were sold. Sold a dream. I was part. I was one of those people. Like, I was. I very proudly. 1991, Went to. To the election to basically disband the government. You know, it was a crazy. It was 1991, we had this election. Only white people could. Could. Could vote. And basically the decision was, do maintain control or give everybody the vote. And of course, we were like, give everybody the vote, which was good. Mandela came in. It was amazing. But then what happened is the political parties around all that, all those awful pathologies rose to the very top. And South Africa now is in a very, very, very bad situation. And all the gangs from other parts of Africa moved in. It's this massive criminal enterprise. And South Africa's in a mess now. Was it in a mess before? Yes. And then everybody was sold. Was sold a dream. And I was one of the people that Loved the dream. And for a while it seemed to work. And then the criminals took over, you know. Anyway, that was a little bit of a tangent. Joel 01:09:03.250 - 01:09:15.450 No, no, not at all, man. Because it's all relative. Like, the ways that these things play out in individual relationships can easily be mirrored and transposed onto what you see on a. On a collective level. And it's like. Mark 01:09:15.450 - 01:09:22.130 And actually, while I'm at the. While I'm at the topic of collectivism, I just want to rant about something because I feel like I can do that in your show. Joel 01:09:22.370 - 01:09:22.770 Please. Mark 01:09:24.610 - 01:10:55.900 I have been paying attention to all my activist friends who keep on screaming, you know, women are oppressed. Women are being, you know, terrible things are being done to women. I'm like, that's true, that's true. We need to do something about it. Now we have in the Middle east all these. All these women that are, you know, terrible things are being done to them. They have to cover themselves up. And I'm like, where are the activists? Like, what happened to you all? What is going on? Is your collectivist dream that all white people are so terrible and they're all colonialists, so intense that you won't look at any of this because anybody that's other has to be good, even if they're diddling children. Like, I don't understand what's going on. I understand that it's a collective days. It's like, it's like, it's like a cult where it was like so entranced by this, an ideology, but now they're ignoring big things. I have a really big issue right now, personally with. And this is part of the collectivism is like, are only some woman to be protected if it's politically inconvenient, Are those women not to be protected? Like, I really want to understand the answer. And I hear a lot of silence on the Internet from my friends, my female friends who are feminists, you know, and I'm like, where are you guys? I feel alone. There's a bunch of us guys. And you're just calling us like, I don't know, right wing Nazis because we think this shit's bad. Like, what happened anyway? Joel 01:10:56.700 - 01:11:20.660 You'll rarely ever hear someone who overtly identifies as an activist speak negatively in any manner about Islamic atrocities, for example. Right? Like, it does. Doesn't matter what it is, you know, only. Only the trending things can be spoken about. But anything that isn't politically convenient or politically vogue at the moment, you know, avoid it. Like it doesn't exist completely. Mark 01:11:20.740 - 01:11:39.300 Yeah. And so then you look at a cult, like, like everybody praises the cult leader, and if the cult leader is doing terrible things to people, you can't look at that. It's the same thing. It's exactly the same thing. I, I am very interested in, I haven't read Gadside's new book yet, Suicidal Empathy, but how is it. Joel 01:11:39.780 - 01:11:43.340 No, I bought it three days ago. Oh, yeah, I'm gone. Mark 01:11:43.340 - 01:12:12.260 I'm really, I want to read it, but I'm really interested in this, in this thing that's going on where people, good people, are willing to enable bad people to do bad things because they can't conceive of that person doing bad things or being a bad person. Like, everybody's so focused on what gender they are, what sex they are, how they identify. Whatever, whatever, whatever. And nobody's just seems to be focused on morality. Joel 01:12:12.420 - 01:12:13.140 Yeah, exactly. Mark 01:12:13.140 - 01:12:22.500 Somehow your skin color is morality. I'm like, how did your skin color become a morality? How, how did that happen? Like, what kind of psyop was designed. Joel 01:12:22.980 - 01:12:23.380 Yeah. Mark 01:12:23.380 - 01:12:39.840 That made you believe that the amount of whatever in your, in your skin equates to morality? Like that. I want to understand, I want somebody to like, argue that point with me, you know, and make me understand, and they'll, they'll go on about colonialism. I go, great, let's talk about all the colonialism. All of it. Joel 01:12:40.080 - 01:12:40.440 Yeah. Mark 01:12:40.440 - 01:12:45.240 Going back thousands of years, I want to hear the argument in a way that makes sense to me. Joel 01:12:45.240 - 01:14:03.860 I haven't yet because it's, it's not a lack of power structures that we need. What we need is healthy power structures ultimately. And the, the root, as far as I understand, to like really simplify Gad's thinking and this whole idea of suicidal empathy. At the root of that is this idea of Western self hatred. And it's Westerners being indoctrinated to hate themselves, hate their own philosophies, hate the ideas that have led to freedom and prosperity, and then, you know, just romanticize all these other cultures that actually haven't evolved to the same degree that they have. In fact, many of them are in a constant state of regression. And so the end result of that is constantly advocating for endless open border policies, endless white self hatred, white self beating, Western, you know, boo, booing. And that's what this suicidal empathy is. It's the, the, the, the weaponized internal destruction of your own culture because you've been programmed over so much time to hate the fruit that has come from the ideas that, you know, you actually are born into and are born From. And so we romanticize these third world cultures to the degree where it's like, okay, we're happy to self destruct at. At that rise or at the expense of that coming into greater fruition. Mark 01:14:03.860 - 01:14:20.900 It's. It's interesting. I. I had this discussion with. With a psychologist, and I said, don't you think it's bad? Like in a family system, don't you think it's bad? Self hatred is bad. They go, yeah, it's very bad. What does this cause? What kinds of problems? Okay, what about a societal level? Is that good? And I could see the person's brain short out. Yerasimos 01:14:21.210 - 01:14:21.530 Yeah. Mark 01:14:21.770 - 01:15:12.630 Now, there are psychologists I've spoken to. One is Dr. Chloe Carmichael. She's very interesting. If you guys haven't spoken to her. She wrote a book about free speech and she talks about exactly this, which is, if you look at what is healthy amongst human beings, then surely to. So to restrict somebody in the family from speaking, you know, to tell them they're not allowed to speak at the dinner table. Well, what happens at a larger scale, is that bad, too? And a lot of people go, well, that's not bad because. Because, well, we have to be responsible. Like you said, like, back to the family. So if the person, the child is saying something, you're going to silence them and say, you have to be responsible. Doesn't that sound a bit like some weird Calvinistic religion? Their brains usually shorted out. But Dr. Clay Carmichael is somebody who's very interesting. She talks a lot about, like, free speech is required for health. Joel 01:15:13.030 - 01:15:13.590 Of course. Mark 01:15:13.590 - 01:15:14.470 At every level. Joel 01:15:15.830 - 01:15:35.680 Yeah, of course, man. And like, healthy boundaries. I even think about, like, healthy boundaries, like, being transposed from the individual then even to, like, broader collectives. Like, it's. It remains necessary. Yeah. Like many of these activists, they're, quote, unquote, you know, activating like, protesting for. Mark 01:15:35.760 - 01:15:36.120 Yeah. Joel 01:15:36.120 - 01:15:38.800 The destruction of boundaries in many ways. Mark 01:15:39.440 - 01:16:08.070 Yeah. Did you see that thing where this, this dude was masturbating in front of a bunch of kids? This was in Europe. This. This dude was masturbating a bunch of. Front of a bunch of kids. Right. And so the dudes, thank God they had testicles, decide to start pummeling this dude, like, get the out of here. And this girl jumps in between them to save the guy whose pants are half down with his dick hanging out, because they feel. She feels like he's being somehow oppressed now. Yerasimos 01:16:08.070 - 01:16:08.390 Why? Mark 01:16:08.470 - 01:17:30.360 Because of the color of the skin of the different parties. I did a podcast about something that happened in a. In a park in Lisbon Just about a year and a half ago, I talked about, there's this trainer in this park. I. I made it a gym because I wanted to be careful. But there's this park where you used to go work out with my trainer, and there's this other trainer there. Very, very handsome dude, like, ripped. And he was extorting a bunch of women. Like, he was seducing a bunch of women who. Some of them had very powerful families and then extorting them for money. Like, he was a really bad dude. And I left the race out of it totally. At the very end of the podcast episode, I said, like, you know, but what if I told you the race of the person? Would that matter kind of thing? Now it just so happened the guy was from. I think it was from Cameroon or something. And I realized, like, if I led with that at the beginning, people would say, well, you're being racist. Like, but let's take race out of it. What this guy was doing is very bad. And. And the women were afraid to. To say anything because then he says, I'm going to tell your husband, you know, and these were ladies of leisure that came to the park to go, like, you know, work out with Mr. Handsome, you know, who looked like a God, you know, from. From. From North Africa, but the bad dude, you know, and people can't seem to understand, like, every race, there are good and bad people. There's just. They cannot compute it anymore at the moment. I don't understand what's going on. Joel 01:17:31.100 - 01:17:47.900 Yeah, I think it's less about race and it's always been about ideas, man. There's always been good ideas and bad ideas. Yeah, good philosophies and bad philosophies. Good values and bad values. And what's. What is that? What's the root of that system for each individual? Mark 01:17:48.620 - 01:18:38.190 Yeah. And it's interesting, as I'm saying these things, I realize, ah, my audience things I'm saying, this can be a bit much for people. I'm going to have people that listen to this, like, follow me. They go like. Like, I really like those bit of white supremacist ideas you were talking about there. I'm like, really concerned about you because what happens is, you know, cult members are. Are loaded in with a bunch of fears that they need to have about certain terms or ideas. So they can't even think them through. They just hear, like, for instance, when I was in. When I was in my cult, the word used was suppressive. The same thing in Scientology. Somebody was a suppressive. So somebody May say some, some ideas. And you may think, well, actually I can think. Those ideas are interesting. Then they'd say, but you know, they're suppressive. Holy. I don't know. They're suppressive. It's a bit like saying, well, you know, they're right wing. You know, they're Republican. Yerasimos 01:18:38.190 - 01:18:39.830 Yeah, they're maga. They're maga. Mark 01:18:39.830 - 01:18:48.150 They're maga. You know, like, I'm like thinking you can't even think through because you've been programmed for certain, for certain things. You know, it's a trick, it's a. Joel 01:18:48.150 - 01:18:52.350 Trigger word that just like triggers like a blank slate or a completely blindfold towards. Yerasimos 01:18:53.310 - 01:18:54.670 You're a conspiracy. They're a conspiracy. Mark 01:18:54.670 - 01:19:10.390 Conspiracy theorist. I am a card carrying, tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist. FY everybody. But I will say, like, from an intelligence perspective, it's brilliant what they've done. Brilliant. Because what they've done is they've made it so you can't get near certain things. And that's the same thing that happens in cults. Joel 01:19:10.390 - 01:19:10.910 Yeah. Mark 01:19:11.070 - 01:19:56.140 Like there was information online about what was actually happening in our culture. There was a blogger that had been blogging for years and they were trying to get him prosecuted, saying he was a criminal. I never really looked at the blog very much because I was told looking at that is dishonorable. You know, and it's very important in our group to speak with honor. To build a better world. We need to be honorable and speak with honor. Therefore, doing things that are dishonorable or reading other people's work that is dishonorable affects the, the collective, so to speak. So I didn't look at the. Until I kind of woke up finally and I, and I went back and I read this stuff and I go, holy, it's all true. Yerasimos 01:19:56.540 - 01:19:57.060 Wow. Mark 01:19:57.060 - 01:20:09.660 But it was radioactive. So what they're doing is they're trying to make certain messages radioactive. For a long time, Julian Assange was radioactive. I don't know where the. I don't know where people stand on Julian Assange now. I think the man's a hero, you know? Joel 01:20:09.900 - 01:20:13.820 Yeah, man. I don't know if you remember, I, I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness, you know, so. Mark 01:20:13.900 - 01:20:15.860 That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Joel 01:20:15.860 - 01:20:39.420 That's very, very, very familiar with a lot of what you're speaking into, you know, and even, even just from a purely religious perspective, like, you know, divination being completely taboo, like the tarot, like archetypal studies, like things of that nature, which ultimately gave me so much value and fruit in My life, you know, that was the stuff that you could never look at, you could never turn to. You know, it's like a psychological electric fence which is implanted. Yeah. Mark 01:20:39.420 - 01:20:46.060 Yes. And I keep thinking about, is God so insecure and sensitive that God can't handle? Joel 01:20:46.220 - 01:20:46.620 Yeah. Mark 01:20:46.620 - 01:21:14.190 Like, who is this God, this God that needs to cover up women that can't have certain words, that can't have certain books be mentioned? Like, who is this deeply insecure, malignant narcissist God that is capable of narcissistic injury if you have a wrong thought? Who is the. Because I want to find him. You know, I know that sometimes people go like, well, that's. That's not real God. I'm like, I don't know. Because the real God you're describing behaves that way. Joel 01:21:14.190 - 01:21:20.430 But what you're speaking to is the God that many of these cult leaders mimic ultimately. And. And are microsoms of. Yerasimos 01:21:20.750 - 01:21:21.150 Right? Mark 01:21:21.710 - 01:21:22.190 Yes. Joel 01:21:22.350 - 01:21:22.870 Yeah. Mark 01:21:22.870 - 01:23:00.140 Yes. I don't know. Maybe being cults has been good for us in some way. You know, I don't know. I feel like coming. It's funny. So 2017, I wake up, right? 2019, The world's about to go insane. I get very, very ill. December 2019, I get super, super ill. Like, I've never been this ill in my life. March. Sorry. Into 2020. They start talking about COVID Yeah. And I'm thinking, oh, is that what happened to me? Because I got very, very sick. And then I see the world go insane. And then I was like, I feel like everything I went through prepared me for what I'm seeing right now for sure. I was like, oh, here it is. But on a very big scale, and, like, everybody's believing it. And I used to wonder, like, how did the. In Nazi Germany? Why did the. The German people, like, dob out the. The Jewish people? Like, why did they do that? And then people started reporting people in America for ship. I'm like, oh, oh. That's how it works. In some ways, I think maybe. Maybe, like, the timing of waking up from cult was perfect, because then in 2020, I was like, jesus Christ, it's all here. Like, you have to be careful what you say. Mass gaslighting, mass. It was extraordinary. You know, that's why I still think. I mean, we have to find center. Because, like, every single time they run a psyop and they try and turn, you know, us against each other. If we don't have a wits about us, we'll do. We'll do it again. You know, we will Vilify each other. Again, I say we. I mean the broader we, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yerasimos 01:23:00.140 - 01:23:16.190 Do you have, do you have faith that, like, people are learning in some, to some degree, you know, especially around. Well, at least around the COVID stuff. Because I feel like every other week it's a new headline, like some new thing they're trying to push. And I don't think it's holding in the same way. Mark 01:23:16.350 - 01:23:20.110 Well, they will, I think. Hunter virus was chased away with. With ridicule, right? Yerasimos 01:23:20.350 - 01:23:22.870 Yeah. And then, and then Ebola came like a week after, I think. Mark 01:23:22.870 - 01:23:38.790 Yeah. I'm like, okay, seriously. So I didn't have a lot of faith. And then I spoke to a filmmaker friend of mine and he said to me, go read the YouTube comments. If you don't have faith, go read the YouTube comments. And so I sometimes read the comments now on like Facebook. I'll see an ad for some drug. Yerasimos 01:23:39.110 - 01:23:39.670 Yeah. Mark 01:23:39.990 - 01:25:19.300 And I'll read the comments. And the comments are fantastic. And I'm thinking about, oh my God, people are. There's. People are seeing it, you know, much more than I thought. The issue is that there's so much social cost for speaking your mind. So that's still holding a lot of people back. But the thing is, just because they're being held back doesn't mean they don't exist, you know, so there's, there's that in the end, I think. I think people will triumph. And there's this, you know, there's this. The series I wrote years ago about remote viewing. It was like a five season series, you know, and I had terrible trouble making. Then finally I. I spoke to Stephen Greer earlier this year and I said, like, why is. What's going on? And he says, oh, you. Your shit's being blocked. And this is how it's being blocked and why it's being blocked and shit like that. But in, in season five, you find out that the reason that these, this corporation and the government are trying to do all the things they're doing is because they've sent remote viewers far into the future. And in the future humanity triumphs. And they're terrified of that. So everything they're trying to do is heading towards this inevitable point where people wake up. Enough people wake up collectively that the power doesn't work anymore. The power structures and the abuse doesn't work anymore. And in my story, that's what they worried about. Because no matter what changes, the whole thing is about making changes now. And they send the remote viewers forward to go and see how is that change playing out in the timeline and what they realize is, no matter what they're doing, the end never changes. Like, it always results in humanity waking up. So that was the whole premise of the fifth season. Wow. I think it might be true. Maybe. Joel 01:25:20.020 - 01:25:21.700 I think I lean towards that. Yerasimos 01:25:22.180 - 01:25:34.260 I'm way more of an optimist, you know, than a pessimist, you know, with a healthy dose of realism or, you know, being realistic. But I just. Yeah, I just. I expect good things to happen. Mark 01:25:34.580 - 01:25:57.820 I think so, too. Honestly, watching the. The way the World cup has been, I'm like, I have got so much hope. Yeah, I've got so much hope. I'm like, oh, geez, if soccer can bring us together, fantastic. Whatever it takes, know you. You know, but the fact is, people are realizing they've been lied to. The amount of people in all these soccer memes saying, like, we've been lied to about people is amazing. Amazing. Joel 01:25:59.500 - 01:26:26.280 Ultimately, nothing can ever stifle the broader evolutionary impulse of reality and of the cosmos. So even if things temporarily feel incredibly hard or difficult or tragic, whatever it might be, I think. Think, you know, again, without spiritually bypassing, my genuine belief is that underlying all of it, there is ultimately a beneficial reason as to why, you know, and it always leads to an evolutionary impulse. Ultimately, I think you're right. Mark 01:26:26.280 - 01:26:38.940 You know, those. Those roads that haven't been driven on for years, and that nature is just coming through them, through the cracks. Like, I. I think we're like that, you know, I think we're gonna. We're gonna survive. And however we are, I think we're gonna survive. Joel 01:26:39.810 - 01:26:45.970 Me too, man. Me too. Mark, thank you so much. It's. I love just the diversity of this conversation. Mark 01:26:46.690 - 01:26:49.570 Great chat. Great chat, guys. Love it. Yerasimos 01:26:49.570 - 01:26:54.050 Yeah, I really appreciate you, man. I know you mentioned it earlier, but how can people support you? How can people find you? Mark 01:26:54.930 - 01:27:23.020 Yeah, to find me, you know, Mark Vente.com also on Instagram, Mark Vicente, please go to narciss narcissists playbook.com. Watch the trailer. Donate. You'll see the film very soon and just, like, you know, become part of this movement. We're trying to teach people the patterns and the playbook of these kinds of abuses. Not to, like, spend your life in misery, but to understand how they work, you know, so that you can actually be empowered again. So that's where you can find me. Joel 01:27:23.180 - 01:27:31.230 Incredible, man. And Mark has his own podcast, which is still running. WTF is on My Mind. That's where the Instaguru series is, right? Mark 01:27:31.700 - 01:28:25.540 Yeah, it's housed inside that. Yeah. So I'm currently. I just put out episode 12. There's more coming. Okay. But it's really. It's really, really fascinating. And I really. I suggest people watch it because although it's about one particular organization, a lot of people are going like, oh, my God, that's what my marriage was like, oh, my God, that's what my work environment. That's what my group was like. That's the thing I got out of, you know, and so people are having very healing experiences and. And it's very emotional. Like, it's difficult stuff, you know, because, like, the last few episodes, what we've been showing is like, the leader presents himself a certain way. Now we're reading his text messages to the. To the inner circle. And the text messages, the inner circle are vile. Vile. This man hates human beings. But you. So you see the disparity between the public face and what's. And what's being hidden. So we're just bringing out the stuff that's hidden and, you know, well, that's. Yerasimos 01:28:25.540 - 01:28:42.020 Cool that it's ongoing. I saw 12 episodes in my head. I thought it was just 12, and I watched the first three and I loved it and I can't wait to get more back into it. So, yeah, to anyone listening, go check it out on. On Mark's YouTube page or. And also I guess you can listen to it. Can you listen to it as well? Yeah, you can. Mark 01:28:42.020 - 01:28:45.140 So it's on YouTube and also all podcast platforms as well. Yeah. Joel 01:28:45.620 - 01:28:46.140 Awesome. Mark 01:28:46.140 - 01:28:46.820 Lots of choices. Yerasimos 01:28:46.980 - 01:28:48.900 I think viewing it watching is. Mark 01:28:49.540 - 01:28:51.230 Is great too. I think so. Joel 01:28:51.230 - 01:28:57.110 We'll have all those links in the brief in the show notes. Everyone, thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time. Take care.