Mark Vicente Inside the Making of a Cult

[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 2:06) All right, everybody, welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. I'm Joel Rafiti, got your askmast with me. This is our first time behind the mic in 2025. Excited to be back podcasting again. After a month off, we prerecorded a bunch of episodes as my wife and I were expecting our third baby. And I can happily say that we had an amazing free birth, home birth experience. And I now have, we now have our third daughter, Tieta, who was born on December the 8th. And very, very proud to be a father of three at the moment. That being said, today we have an incredible episode for you. Mark Vicente, probably very familiar with his 2004 documentary, What the Bleep Do We Know? After that, he spent over a decade inside the Nixxiom cult and ultimately became one of the pivotal and key whistleblowers in its ultimate downfall. And he was one of the key figures inside the HBO docuseries of The Vow as well. So this is an amazing conversation. We get into a lot of relevant conversations, which you guys know we love to have in terms of the nature of cults, narcissism, groupthink, collectivism, what's happening within the individual, which leads them to these groups and behaviors, and also just the nature of the guru. Why do we even still need gurus now in 2025? And I'm hoping that continues to come crashing and to an end as well. Last thing, thank you so much to our members, our Friends of the Truth members, our premium members. Thanks for your support. You guys are a big part of why we're able to continue to do this week in, week out, and we really appreciate it. If you'd like to become a member, head to hereforthetruth.com and hit the membership button, and you'll gain access to over 100 plus hours of exclusive content. You'll get deeper access to us. You'll join our private Telegram community, and you get five ongoing calls per month, just to really stay connected, stay aware, and become the best version of yourself. Please enjoy this episode. [Speaker 3] (2:07 - 2:14) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 2] (2:17 - 2:56) Mark Vicente is a filmmaker, speaker, and whistleblower best known for directing the groundbreaking documentary, What the Bleep? Do We Know?, and for his pivotal role in HBO's The Vow. Drawing from his first-hand experience as a high-ranking member turned whistleblower of Nixxiom, Mark has become a powerful voice in exposing the nature of cults, coercive control, and psychological manipulation. Through his work and personal journey, he sheds light on the subtle tactics used to entrap individuals in high-control groups, while inspiring others to reclaim their autonomy and recognize the importance of critical thinking and self-awareness in navigating complex systems of influence. Mark, welcome to Here for the Truth. [Speaker 1] (2:57 - 3:02) Thank you. That was good. That kind of encapsulates me pretty well. Thank you. Thank you, man. [Speaker 2] (3:02 - 3:08) Yeah, I worked on speaking, editing, making sure I felt right, and we got there in the end, so I'm glad you appreciated that. [Speaker 1] (3:09 - 3:42) Phenomenal, phenomenal. Today's actually, let me tell you something interesting just to start with. I'm very raw today. I didn't mention this before we started rolling, but my friend Mike Rinder passed away yesterday. I don't know if you know who Mike was. Mike was one of the big whistleblowers against Scientology, and he and Leah Remini did that show, and he was also in this film. What was it called? I'm so embarrassed that I'm forgetting. The HBO film directed by Alex Gibney about Scientology. [Speaker 2] (3:42 - 3:44) Something like Going Clear or something? [Speaker 1] (3:44 - 4:31) Yes, yes, yes. Mike wrote a book recently called A Billion Years, his so-called billion-year contract, so a little raw today because Mike just passed away yesterday, and amazing, amazing human being, like a complete warrior, and he's been battling them for years. A lot of us really looked up to him because he was like, you know, and our stories are somewhat similar, you know. He was also very deeply in Scientology, and he then worked to expose them. It was very deep, and it was like in their legal department, you know. He was the one, I think, that helped them get their status, the tax-free status, which I know he was not happy about later. So yeah, just lost a good friend yesterday. [Speaker 2] (4:31 - 4:41) Really, really sorry man. Thank you so much for sharing that. What would you like to have said to Mike in terms of, you know, his legacy? What would you have said to him? [Speaker 1] (4:41 - 5:44) Honestly, I think I said a lot to him already. You know, we did this wonderful podcast together, and we spoke now and again, and honestly, I was just always grateful to him, you know, because basically as we were waking up, what we were turning to was like, there weren't a lot of books at that point. This was 2017, but there was this TV show that he and Theoremony were doing, and we were watching it, and beginning to understand, oh shit, this is how it works. And then one day he reached out to me to ask me to be on their podcast, and we started talking a lot, and being on their podcast was like therapy for me. But the thing about Mike is just his, you know, his generosity, and he's, you know, such a kind man, but also a warrior. You know how sometimes you meet warriors? Like, these are people that know how to fight, male or female, but they have such gentle souls. And Mike was that kind of guy, you know, just really, really cared about people. So one good thing is I don't feel that anything was unsaid. I feel really good about that. [Speaker 2] (5:45 - 6:31) Amazing, man. Thank you so much for sharing. And yeah, absolutely. We honor Mike and, you know, everyone that continues to pave the way for, you know, more truth, and for us to have the capacity to hold more truth, and to hold more darkness as well, I think. That's true. Mark, one way we always like to kick off these podcasts with first-time guests is we'd love to dive a little bit deeper into your personal hero's journey. Like, what are some of the most transformative rites of passage that you've experienced in your life that you feel like led you down this path? Because I don't believe in accidents or coincidences, and I think we're all given a blueprint that ultimately leads to the blossoming of who we're born to be. What would you say some of those pivotal moments are for you? [Speaker 1] (6:33 - 12:02) You know, I spent a lot of time in the bush outside of Johannesburg growing up, because I spent time with my grandparents, because my mom was getting divorces, and, you know, there were different struggles happening with my mom and her various husbands. So I got to spend a bunch of time with my grandparents, and there were some really pivotal things that happened, you know, growing up like in the bush, because I was between being in the bush and then going to boarding school, which is also the middle of nowhere. And there were a couple of things that happened that were really interesting. The one was, I remember, it's so funny that Mike just passed away, but I remember one of the earliest sort of inklings I had of this sort of otherworldly nature of things, was I remember one of the family dogs died, and I was asking questions like, well, what happens, you know, what happens afterwards? And they said, well, then they become spirits, you know, and I remember staring at the bush where the little dog was buried, and either I imagined it, or I saw it, I'm not sure, but this interesting spiral, and this sort of shimmering in the air, and I thought to myself, I think that's what spirit is, you know. I became very obsessed with the other things that we couldn't see, and this was a very strong obsession of mine, and I remember going to my mom saying, there's something I want to study, but I don't know what it is, and I thought maybe it was Kung Fu, and it wasn't that, I thought it was karate, it wasn't that, it was something, I didn't know what it was. And much later, you know, my mom sort of introduced me to like Hinduism and Buddhism and the New Age and a bunch of stuff, so it started making more sense, but there was this one moment, I think I was like maybe eight, and I was back staying with my grandparents, and I had seen my mom and dad, this is my stepdad, had taken me to see this musical in Johannesburg, and it was called Ipitombi, and it was a lot of like Zulu and Sutu dancing and singing and that kind of thing, and I was obsessed with the music, you know, and obsessed with the drums, and I remember going back to to be with my grandparents, the bush, my mom went, my mom and dad went off somewhere, maybe it was, I don't know what they were doing, I have no idea, my mom and dad were also spies, so it was a very complicated existence, but I remember listening to the music and finding these old like cake tins and, you know, hitting these tins like I was this drummer, and something happened, I was staring out the window at the bush as I was listening to the music, and this like rush of energy went up my spine and just hit my head, and just it was came pouring out of my eyes as tears, and, you know, later I would think, oh, maybe that was something of a Kundalini experience, you know, but at that time as a kid, I had no idea what it was, but what I do remember is, I remember that it felt like a solution to what I was seeing in the country, because I was seeing bad shit happen, and I was seeing racism, and I was asking questions of people around me, and they couldn't give me good answers, like why were people being treated the way they were being treated, and why were, you know, why were black people not as important, or why weren't they even seen as people, and I had all these questions, and there was so much unrest, and I saw a few bad things as a kid, and when I felt this feeling, which was, I suppose, like melting into everything, and this profound love, I thought to myself, you know, if people could feel this feeling, they wouldn't kill each other, they wouldn't hurt each other, they wouldn't say anything mean to each other, and so my obsession was, how am I going to get the country to hear this music, because if they hear this music, I was very cute, I assumed that if they heard it, they would feel what I was feeling, how am I going to get everyone to hear this music, and so in my mind, I began imagining these, like, massive speakers, like a massive stack of speakers, like Jack and the Beanstalk big, because I also realized, like, there were mountains, you know, around us, and then have to go over the mountains, and reach the ocean, so that was my obsession, how am I going to build speakers big enough, because I don't know anything, I'm like eight or nine, or whatever, and much later, so this was an obsessive thing for me, you know, this yearning for the otherworldly nature of things, and this desire to make the country better somehow, and then much later, I was actually in Lisbon with my parents, and they took me to see Star Wars, and I think it was called Guerra de Estrelas, you know, in Portuguese, and I remember seeing Star Wars, and just being blown away, and finally thinking, oh, this is how you do it, this is how you reach people, you know, because it was all about the force, and all about this, and I was thinking that the beautiful message, but also, like, I was so profoundly moved, and so I decided I'm going to figure out how to do this kind of thing, and so then my obsession began with, like, I want to make films, so a lot of the early experiences were about trying to figure out how to get a message or an idea out into the world, and I think where things went, I think the problem was that a lot of what I was doing, and it's funny, because I was listening to some of your episodes last week, a lot of what I was doing was trying to escape pain. I was looking for a way out of the pain that I experienced as a kid, and certainly as a preteen, and growing up in a country that I just knew, I knew shit was fucked up, and I just didn't know. [Speaker 2] (12:02 - 12:06) Just for the audience, you're referencing apartheid South Africa. [Speaker 1] (12:06 - 17:28) Apartheid South Africa, yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, when I went to university, like, you know, that they declared a state of emergency, and they were hauling people off to prison, and then they never came back, and I think there was so much that I was seeing, as a very sensitive kid, you know, I just felt everything, and I think that part of my spiritual yearning was to escape, and also, I had this belief that goodness was the most beautiful thing, and somehow, I needed to find the teacher, the method, the something that I could become that goodness. You know, I wanted to be as good as, you know, Jesus Christ was, but also, at the same time, I was having trouble, because I was abandoning, you know, the format of Christianity, but there was something very beautiful about these, you know, the Buddhas, and the Jesus, and that kind of thing, and so, I felt I didn't have it, but I had to find it, and that feeling of, I didn't have it, I have to find it, is what led me to study a lot of things, and go meet a lot of spiritual teachers, and join a lot of organizations, until, you know, my last foray, which was, you know, which ended in 2017, which is, I'd been in this organization for over a decade, you know, I was traveling between LA, you know, working on films, and then traveling, you know, back to upstate New York, where the organization was, and then finally realizing that, like, oh shit, the guy that is my mentor is a really, really, really bad man, doing really, really bad things, and I didn't see it, and I was so horrified and shocked when I realized what he was doing, and of course, then, you know, I became a whistleblower against him, and testified against him in court at a massive trial, but the thing, the obsession began, trying to understand, like, how did that happen, how did I get misled, you know, and I'm going to jump to what normally might be at the end of a kind of discussion, but like, I had this profound realization, which is to do with the hero's journey. If I was to pull back, and I only thought about, realized this in about 2019, 2020, this was after the trial, if I was to pull back to, not little Mark, but like big Mark, you know, behind me, above me, what are we going to do with this guy that's so obsessed with finding goodness outside, and refuses to really look inside, what are we going to do with him, how are we going to break the spell, and the best way to break the spell is to engineer a betrayal so profound, so shocking, that it, like, shocks him out of it, and that's what happened. You know, the person that I considered my mentor for, like, 12 years turned out to be maybe a psychopath, probably a sociopath, doing horrible things, and the shock was so profound that it destabilized everything inside of me, and, you know, I began, I was having, like, suicidal ideation, and I was, like, I was collapsing completely, because my entire world was, like, upside down and inside out, and I described it to some people, like, in Stranger Things, you know, the upside down, it's like I woke up in the upside down, thinking, shit, I thought this was right way up, it's not, this is the upside down, and then having to flip myself back, and sort of find the true me again, but in that profound shock, I threw everything out, and I sort of made the decision, okay, well, maybe Buddha was a sociopath, maybe Jesus was a sociopath, maybe all these guys are assholes, maybe every single one of these motherfuckers, all these statues of all these great people, assholes, a part of me, way in the background, was thinking to myself, it's temporary, I'm like, well, I don't fucking care if it's temporary, it's fucking how I feel, but there was something about throwing everything out that detached me from needing to find the answer outside, which was so good, that was my rage phase, and then, after the trial, you know, my wife and I went to Portugal, and we basically hung out near the ocean, I would go to the ocean every single day, and somewhere in the emptiness, because I'd sort of emptied myself out, now, understand, I'm not saying I was empty, I don't think you can be empty, empty, but somewhere in that emptiness, I began to feel something inside of me, approximating the feelings I had as a child, and really began to feel like, well, that's me. Now, you could argue and say, well, that's God, I don't know, maybe, but that's me, that's me, that's not another person doing it to me, that's me, that's this deep, profound connection, which is what I'd always wanted, and somehow, this horrible thing that I went through, this shocking betrayal, was just what I needed to shake me out of it, to find me again, because there was almost this pathological refusal to look at myself as the source of everything I loved, if that makes any sense. [Speaker 3] (17:28 - 17:29) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (17:30 - 18:14) Like, I was the goodness that I was looking for. Yeah. Otherwise, how could I project that on everybody else, you know? So that's been a hell of a journey, and there's obviously a lot more to it, and you know, things I haven't even uncovered yet, but that's the thing that I've learned, in a nutshell, from this dive, you know, like, disassociating from pain, you know, looking for an escape, getting utterly lost in thinking that the thing I needed was out there, and then finally, after enormous shock, realizing, oh no, it's here, this thing I'm looking for is here, and that's the end of the story. But that's how it was, for me, you know, that's how it's been. [Speaker 2] (18:14 - 18:15) Thank you for joining us on the podcast. [Speaker 1] (18:15 - 18:22) Yeah, thank you for joining us, and we're done, yeah. Mark, do you think growth can happen, like, without pain? [Speaker 2] (18:23 - 18:28) Like, a certain type of growth, like evolution of soul of spirit without pain? [Speaker 1] (18:32 - 18:37) You know, I'd hate to say yes or no, because I don't fucking know. [Speaker 2] (18:38 - 18:38) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (18:39 - 20:11) I just don't see how it's possible, though. Because, I'll give you an example. So, for the last few years, I've been working on a film, you know, in which I've gone to interview self-confessed narcissists, you know, sociopaths, psychopaths, you know, put them on camera, ask them questions about, you know, their darkness. And I've seen a lot of darkness, you know, so I've gone into hell, and I've seen deep levels of depravity, and I've sort of allowed myself to try to understand, you know, the motivations behind those things. What's happened, as I think as a result, you know, maybe it's not causality, but it feels like it's causality. What happened is that I feel goodness, love, all those things far more profoundly than I did before I looked into hell. After looking into hell, like, and now I truly appreciate goodness and how difficult it is to maintain a kind of love in the face of some really, really bad shit, you know. I mean, it's, you can say you love, you know, you love somebody, but I don't know, like, do you? Like, what if, when it gets tough, that's when you know. So maybe I'm saying you have to have pain. I don't know, because maybe there's circumstances where it's not true, but certainly for me, it's been true. [Speaker 2] (20:12 - 20:12) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (20:12 - 20:14) Well, everything needs contrast, right? [Speaker 2] (20:14 - 21:20) Like, without contrast, there's no perspective. Like, when I heard your question, you're asking us, it's like, I would like my kids to be able to grow with less pain without having to, you know, feel the harsh lessons that I had to feel. So it's just like, what are we passing on? Like, can we make the pain less? Can we make the pain easier for future generations and for the future of humanity? And a part of me is inclined to believe that that is possible and that someone can learn with more ease, I would hope. I mean, I would think so, to a certain degree. I mean, do we really have to experience the levels of pain that we've experienced? I mean, maybe in this, in our, based on our own story, but when we think about passing on future generations, do we create individuals or nurture individuals that have more capacity to navigate things in life, so they don't have to be smacked in the face as hard, you know, 20 years down the road, potentially? I don't know. I mean, it's an individual story for each person. [Speaker 1] (21:21 - 21:31) Yeah. Yes. And I will also say that I feel, so I'm 59 now, I feel the richness of the shit I've been through. [Speaker 2] (21:32 - 21:32) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (21:32 - 22:26) Like I've been through shit, you know, and there's a real richness in that, that I really, I wouldn't change anything. Like who I am now, I like who I am now. And if changing anything means that I wouldn't be who I am now, I think I'm going to, I think I want to enjoy who I am now because of like all the crap I've been through, all the heartbreak, you know, all the disconnection from self that hurts so badly eventually that I had to find connection. I don't know. For me, I think I, it's colored my life in a way that I like who I am and I feel a level of compassion for other people I've never felt before. And so I don't have kids, right? But I think about that a lot. Like, would I want to protect them from that? I don't know. Yeah. I'm not a father, so. [Speaker 2] (22:27 - 23:14) Yeah, I'm not a father either. Joel is. But even what you said reminds me of something because people very often have asked me if I have regrets in my life. And I go, well, I don't know. I like who I am right now and every experience and every choice and everything that happened to me led me to who I am right now. So it's like, if I changed one thing, how would that impact the trajectory of my life to where I am right now? I mean, yeah, I guess a part of me would be like, oh, I wish that didn't happen. I wish my birth wasn't as traumatic. I wish, you know, sure. But at the same time, I like who I am. I'm grateful for the life that led me to even sitting here right now and having this conversation with the two of you. That's the thing. If you're genuinely contented with who you are and where you are right now, I don't think regret can be on the table. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (23:15 - 24:08) And even last night, you know, I had a really good cry by my friend Mike and it felt very painful. And then a part of me was like, man, I am alive to feel this. Like I am here feeling this. How fucking lucky am I that I can even feel this, you know? And I think that we shy away from pain and we shy away from a lot of difficult things. But my God, we're so lucky. Because like, I don't know, what if I'm outside of my body? What if I die and I'm astral and shit? I don't know how any of it works, right? But what if I can't feel the same things? What if it's so beautiful that here I feel these things? You know, cause I don't know what it's like outside of here. Or maybe I can't remember. I have no idea. [Speaker 2] (24:08 - 24:52) Yeah. There's a richness in the entire spectrum of human experience. You know, I think that like Erasmus said, it's just about building our capacity to appreciate that richness and recognizing that ultimately all things are held in balance and everything does happen for a reason. Even if that means for the benefit of the individual's journey, which is obviously something that you've experienced firsthand yourself. I want to get into one of the main topics I want to discuss with you, which is like just the makings of a cult, like generally. Why and how do cults form and why do they become so appealing, you know, to certain individuals? [Speaker 1] (24:53 - 28:05) Yeah. You know, so I have this long, not long, but it's like an hour long video on YouTube on my YouTube channel, my podcast called What is a Cult? And I go through like I think 20, 25 or 26 sort of things. But one of the things I think that's important that I think not a lot of people look at, they talk about, you know, you need a charismatic leader to have a cult, but I do think you need, you need a leader with a pathology. At minimum narcissism. And this is somebody that needs that, that has a certain emptiness and they get to a point, they need so much adoration to fill themselves and they have the requisite skills and charisma to enlist people around them in a dream. But they're usually using fear of some kind, you know, to, to destabilize people, to get them to like come on board because they're going to show them the way. And one of the things I see that happens in cults is they're always promising some kind of escape from where the person's at. So they often people that are in some kind of pain are given a way out of that pain. And what happens is the leader often says, well, the way out is through me, my teachings or me, you know, if they're a very spiritual type of cult leader, it's through them. Or if they're, you know, I don't know, some human, you know, human performance thing, it's through the, through the, through the teachings or through the tech. And there's always this interesting bait and switch that goes on because you're promised to dream in some ways, you know, the, the process of the way a narcissistically abusive relationship works is the same as what happens in a cult. There's love bombing at first, right? And the, the student is yearning for something. Every human being has some kind of lack. Every human being has, whether they feel it or not, they have some God sized hole that needs to be filled. And there's some lack that's just universal. Everybody has it. And what these people are very good at is seeing the lack and then saying, ah, yes, well, we can solve that lack and who doesn't want to have the dissolution of that kind of, that kind of pain. And so people are drawn in, but there's always this, this bait and switch. There's this love bombing. They're promised this community in this world. I mean, when I went into the various organizations, I mean, the community was incredible. You know, this last organization, you know, Nixxiom, when I went there, everybody was so nice, you know, and like, so excited that I was there. And I didn't understand that they'd studied me for weeks to figure out how to, how to get me, but it felt really good. It felt really good to be part of a community. And as somebody that always with the black sheep kind of everywhere, it kind of felt always feels good to be part of a community that doesn't think you're a black sheep, like, oh, you're normal. You're like, oh, I'm normal. That's amazing. I feel great. So you get, you get enrolled in this sort of, with love bombing, but then what happens is eventually they start to isolate you from everything, your support system. They start to say things like, well, you know, nobody understands you the way we do. Do your parents understand you? Does your brother and sister understand you? They even try, does your wife understand you? Does your husband understand you? [Speaker 2] (28:05 - 28:11) And do you think this is like a premeditated step-by-step thing, or is it something that's happening on a more like unconscious level? [Speaker 1] (28:12 - 30:36) I think with some people it's premeditated. Like if you look at intelligence manuals, like what the CIA does, they purposefully destabilize people so that the person is so lost. And then they give them something solid to hold onto. And then the person latches onto that. They do that in interrogation as well. So if the CIA knows how to do it and all the other intelligence organizations know how to do it, then yeah, people know how to do it. But I think a lot of it is pretty unconscious. I mean, I think the love bombing thing can be purposeful, but I think it also can just be part of how they do it. I mean, what I'm learning about narcissism more and more with this film I've been making is that they, people may not realize this, that the narcissist kind of falls in love with their target. They kind of idealize their target. They think that the target is everything that they've ever looked for. And they have this image in their head of the perfect other. And then they make this person the perfect other. And so they're enamored with this person and they do all this stuff to get the other person enamored with them until the difference between their fantasy and reality starts to become too big. And then they get angry at the person for not being the perfect fantasy that they had. And then they start to devalue them. I don't know how conscious that is with a lot of people. I think that's pretty automatic. But it is pretty consistent, because what happens eventually in a cult is you get isolated from everybody so that you have no support system, and then you get devalued eventually. And then you're trying to get the love back. There's all this intimate and reinforcement that happens. You get a bunch of praise and then the praise is taken away. And then it's kind of random. You're never sure, like you're looking for the praise again. People say, well, why did she stay in that relationship? Because some of it was good. And she still wants the good. And she's waiting long enough to see if maybe the good will come back. I feel very sad when people diss on people. They get stuck in these things. But there's all this complex psychological stuff at play where there's a lot of bad shit that happens, but there's some good shit and the good shit's really good. And so you're like yearning for the good again. And you stick around through the abuse. So there's all these patterns that seem to happen and play out in cults that, as I say, are very similar to the way they would play out in a narcissistic abusive relationship. [Speaker 2] (30:37 - 30:44) Hey Mark, earlier you said that they had planned, they knew things about you. Did they want to bring you in because of your filmmaking? [Speaker 1] (30:45 - 33:13) Yeah, yeah. They saw What the Bleep Do We Know. They were like, we got to get this guy. And I only found out later. I mean, God, I found out 12 years later. Like with the year I left, I contacted somebody that had left before and she said, oh yeah, I was in those meetings. They planned everything. They listened to every TV interview, radio interview, everything you'd written. We studied you. We tried to figure out how to get you. We figured out what your values were and what you yearned for. And you wanted to make the world better. And we thought, great, that's how we'll get him. So I got picked up in a Learjet and got flown all over the US. And they said to me, oh, we're going to help you make the movies you want to make to change the world. And I was like, fuck, I'm in. It wasn't that fast. I'm just giving you the generalities. But the idea that somebody would be able to help me create the things I wanted to create to make the world better, because that was my desperate mission. I was like, this is fantastic. And also what they offered was we have a way to help defrag the human personality, because all the things that you think are bad in the world are a result of bad programming. We have a way to change programming very, very quickly to help people become more optimal, to help them become more moral, more ethical. And I was like, well, that's amazing. Let me try it. And so I tried it and I thought it was amazing, you know, so it didn't take much. I mean, for me, I wasn't yearning for the community as much as I was yearning for a way to execute my mission. That's what I wanted. And they figured out that's what I wanted. And so they offered me everything that looked like I was going to get it until I immersed myself more deeply because, you know, one of the second in command said to me, listen, if you want to be serious about working with the leader, who's like one of the smartest people in the world, you need to spend some time here. I'm like, well, I'm kind of busy. I'm writing a book and I'm about to make a movie. And I, you know, and they said, well, she said, you know, I think you need to like put those silly things aside because if you really want to do like, you know, this thing you want to do in life, like you need to take it seriously. So why don't you spend some time here? And I said, okay, I'll spend some time. I said, how long? She said a year. I was like, fuck, and how are you fucking serious? Or I'll spend a year. It's amazing how much damage they can do, anybody can do to your psyche in a year, you know, of brainwashing you and sort of isolating you from everything else. It's quite amazing. [Speaker 2] (33:14 - 33:26) Yeah. Ultimately is that year that was spent, like, is that one of the things that led to the cult's downfall with what you observed and with your own disillusionment? Or was that after that? [Speaker 1] (33:26 - 34:51) No, I mean, that was sort of my induction, you know, into it. Yeah. I think what happened is I saw all kinds of issues over the years, but I mean, at one point, even, you know, 10 years in, I remember taking a walk with Ranieri, the leader saying, there's a psychopath in the system, you know, there's some, somebody's playing the system. And he was like, who do you think it is? And I said, I think it's so-and-so. And he said, oh, you know, so we were having discussions. It never occurred to me like he was the one playing the system, you know, so he was toying with me. In fact, he wrote things that like, I mean, I read this out in court. I found right before trial, I found a, actually, I transcribed a conversation he and I had had, and he pitched me a story. And the story was about this corporation, and the corporation, there was this guy in the corporation, this really good guy, and he had a mentor. And he and the mentor were chatting about that there's some, there's somebody in the organization that's, that's a psychopath that's doing stuff. And so he would go to the mentor and say, well, I think it's this person, I think it's that person. That was like, that was early. That was like, maybe the third year I was in. That's exactly what he was doing with me. Because the trick, he said, at the end of the story is that the mentor is the psychopath. [Speaker 3] (34:51 - 34:52) Wow. [Speaker 1] (34:52 - 35:58) That he was literally playing me, you know, pitching me a story of what he was doing to me. Because he loved practical jokes, loved them. And he loved long practical jokes. You know, so right before trial, I found this thing and I was, I was super fucked up. I think that's actually in the vow. The moment I find the letter. I think, yeah, we shot that day because I was so messed up. And I was just shocked. I was shocked at the level, the level of evil and how long the game had been played. You know, because I realized in that moment that his great joy was breaking somebody, you know, he really loved that. And he talked about that. He talked about, in the actual education, he talked about a person who's a psychopath who gets to a certain point that they actually are in pain if other people are happy and enjoy when other people are in pain. You know, he talked about how people get crosswired and it didn't occur to me that that was him talking about himself, you know? [Speaker 2] (35:59 - 36:08) It's like, that's the magic trick to some degree. It's like, oh, let's just talk about these things that you would think I wouldn't be talking about these things if I was that thing. Exactly. [Speaker 1] (36:09 - 36:16) You know? Exactly. Exactly. Well, this podcast has taken a dark turn, hasn't it? Actually, everything I do, it got a dark turn at some point. [Speaker 2] (36:16 - 36:32) Well, you know, that kind of, that kind of leads me to where I wanted to, what I want to ask next. Like, did Nixxiom get positive results? Was there a positive method or a positive process that led people to positively transform in any way? [Speaker 1] (36:34 - 41:29) Early on, yes, to some degree, but I don't know. It's like, I'll give you a metaphor for a second. Let's say I take the two of you on some kind of a survival thing and I'm just fucking with you the whole time, but you get a bunch of skills out of it. Like, I almost kill both of you because I'm having fun, you know? And you guys, for the first three quarters of the journey, you think like, I'm actually really trying to help you. And then towards the end, you realize like, I think he's trying to kill us. And I am. Trying to see how far I can get before I take you out, you know? And the joy I'm going to have when you're holding on to the last fucking twig on the cliff and I don't help you. And you realize, oh fuck, he's trying to kill me. That's such an exciting moment. Now let's say you survive and you say like, man, I really got a lot out of that. Okay, good. You know, that's kind of the metaphor I use because inherent in the tech was this wanting to find what your deficiency is. And your deficiency is this, you know, this thing that you believe is missing inside of you. Which is reasonable, you know, because all the things you do in your life are to try to fill that place. And a lot of the things you do are not good for you. Also sounds good. But they don't, nobody tells you about how they're going to break you down because they're going to keep on pushing. They keep on pushing. Like what's, you know, trying to get further and further under things, you know, undermine every single thing. Like, I remember one training I did where, where Ranieri was running the training. And he said, you know, can you name three times you didn't act out of your, I'm going to say words that are more understandable, act out of your ego, but really out of, you know, a pure, a pure sense of motivation. And I wrote down three things. Two, I wasn't so sure. One, I was like, this is, this was fucking selfless. And then the process then was he would, he would break down and say, well, to show you how everything was actually about your ego, that you didn't have any pure motivation whatsoever. So in the midst of all the stuff that feels kind of like you're getting somewhere, you're also being broken down to where you're a piece of shit in the, at the end of the day. And the only way to not be a piece of shit is to supplicate yourself more and more and more and strip your ego more and more and more, which means basically strip your boundaries and your defenses more and more and more until there's kind of nothing left, which is why towards the end, I mean, one of the arguments I had with him, especially the woman he was working with, as I said, they seem like they've lost their soul. They're skinny, they're, they're malnourished, you know, they seem haunted. You know, I was talking about one of them in particular, and he's like, well, she's not too skinny to like knock at her period. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know, in my mind, I was like, why are you even talking about her period? What, what? So I've had people say to me, oh, but there seems to be good stuff about it. Yeah, there, if you, maybe if you pulled it apart, I have no desire to do this, but maybe you pulled it apart. There might be some good stuff, but I've done somatic therapy since then. That's been extremely effective and far more powerful, you know, because Raniri took stuff from, you know, spirituality and from NLP and from Scientology. You know, I always caution people when somebody says to you, like, I have to break you down to rebuild you, just fucking run, just run. You know, I don't want to ever put anybody in a position again, where they're going to be the person determining how much I need to be broken down. I'll go do that myself, like in the fucking desert or jungle or whatever, but I'm not having anybody else make that decision. And I know there are people that have teachers and masters and gurus and everything, and they think that's cool. I've just had some bad experiences and I'm kind of like, you know, done, done doing that. I'm also not sure that you need to be broken down completely in order to be rebuilt. I think that's not necessarily true. Rebuilt into what? And what's wrong with the way you are? See, that's the other thing about cults. It's basically something wrong with you. We're going to fix you, you know, and if you haven't found out what's wrong with you, after this 10-day retreat, we're going to fucking show you what's wrong with you. We're going to show you all your limiting beliefs, every way that you're getting, you know, in your own way, you know, and of course you want that, because every person that's introspective recognizes at some point, I sabotage myself. I have these programs where I'm doing things that are counterproductive for my dreams. Everybody goes, yeah, of course. And so what they do is they give you that honey, but then what they're doing is they're literally breaking you down. They're breaking your psyche down and they're saying, this is what's required for you to have a breakthrough, you know? Yeah. They exacerbate the void, you know? Yes. Exacerbate the void. [Speaker 2] (41:29 - 42:48) Yes. And like everyone is ultimately searching for like how you started this podcast, like that inherent goodness within themselves to know that they're okay, to know that they're appropriate and fit for life. And it just seems as though on that search, instead of like finding the real thing and, you know, going straight to the source, there's just like all these potpipers in the forms of gurus that are like, I have the answer. I have the answer. I have the answer. And it's ultimately that kind of dynamic that, like I mentioned, continues to confuse and create this deeper sense of loss and void within oneself. Um, and there's not many religions or teachings or whatever that actually teaches you to build a sense of self, right? To build one's self-esteem, to develop a friendlier relationship with this being that you are. And like, even within like, you know, mainstream Christianity, like we put selflessness on a pedestal, like the less self that, you know, I can, I can be aware of somehow means the more moral that I can be in the world and in my life. [Speaker 1] (42:49 - 43:50) Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. You know, my wife and I were talking about this whole thing as well, about like, you know, everybody's shitting on the ego all the time, you know, because of your ego, you can't do this or that or the other. It's because you ego, you know, you need to, you want to be safe. You want to be comfortable. You want to be lazy. You want to be this, that, and the other. And our way is a little different now. Like we're interested in embracing what they think is bad. Like, let's just say for, let's just hypothetically say that we were created by fucking aliens or whatever, I don't know, aliens, God, who gives a shit. So yes, we have this thing, we have a true self somehow, which we is, we don't know what that is. And then we have this ego structure. We have it. We're not getting rid of it. Like, why is everybody trying to get rid of it? Like fucking cutting your legs off, fucking have legs, three dimensional world, gravity, fucking great. Why is the ego so bad? And all this business of like the ego is bad seems to serve people that have massive fucking egos. [Speaker 2] (43:51 - 44:25) Yeah. People also like use that word in so many different ways. Everyone just throws the word ego around to mean different things. I mean, like I come from Greece, I speak the Greek language. Ego is I. So like, why do you want to get rid of the I? Ego. You know, and it's just like, it's just silly to me. But again, people will attribute like, oh, ego is like the bad parts of you. You know, like, oh, you want to do things in the world or you, you, you seek things. And I just like, I just could never get hip to a lot of the new age stuff where it was like, you know, get rid of it, get rid of it. [Speaker 1] (44:26 - 46:10) Yeah. I think, yeah. And also for me personally, like I found that incorporating everything that I am as much as I am, I can, I seem to get better results and by better results, I feel more whole. Like I am capable of this. I am capable of that. I am angry. I am sad. I was crying yesterday. I was crying this morning. That's part of the whole fucking package. I don't know what the package is, but it's part of it. I guess I feel like we do that with emotions as well. I've been thinking a lot about this. You know, we have feelings that we try and suppress and it's a funny game we play because we're suppressing feelings that are there anyway, that can't be suppressed because we know they're there because we're trying to push them down. And that's leads to a kind of psychosis for people as opposed to just going, Oh, I have this feeling I'm having right now. Yeah. That's cool. You know, and not having a whole stush about it. It's just like something I'm having. And I feel like we've, and I don't know what the, what the cause of it is. You know, maybe it's, maybe it's religion, maybe it's whatever, but like, it's not just religion though. Cause I see it in a lot of different groups. I mean, I see it in like, I'm seeing it now in America. I had the last few years. There's a kind of religiosity in, let's say, I don't know, social justice movements or whatever the movement is. You know, if you do these things, then you're good. If you do those things, then you're bad. And those people will say, well, like, I'm not religious. I'm like, that's funny because you're doing the same patterns. It's all the same. You're trying to suppress parts of yourself, trying to cut your parts of yourself off. I noticed in people. [Speaker 2] (46:11 - 46:13) And you're trying to seek your source of approval outside of yourself. [Speaker 1] (46:14 - 47:07) Yes, yes, yes, exactly. But also there's this profound, I've been seeing it, you know, I was a hardcore environmentalist for many years. And I remember at one point realizing like, we really hate human beings. Like we really hate ourselves. I'm like, that's not good. Now I see that a lot. I see that in a lot of movements, that there's a level of hatred, you know, like right now in America, if you're white, you should hate yourself. If you're a man, you should hate yourself more. And if you're straight, you're fucked. Like there's three reasons that I'm just horrible. And this seems to be a perfectly reasonable way to proceed for people. I'm like, guys, this is insane. We're just walking around with cue cards of like, oh, you're this as well. This week, you're hating yourself for this. [Speaker 2] (47:07 - 47:15) I can't believe we invited you on. This is our last straight white man for the year. I know. See? [Speaker 1] (47:15 - 47:46) Why would anyone listen to the three of us? Why would anyone listen to us? Look at us. We're just horrible people, you know? And by the way, do you guys know Africa Brooke? I know of her, but I don't know her. Yeah. She's a good friend of mine. And I was on her podcast. She was on mine. We were having the same conversation. Do you know that podcast rating got such low, low ranking? Like people disliked it so much. A black woman from Zimbabwe talking about these things and they just hated it. [Speaker 2] (47:47 - 47:50) And I was like, Mark, it's internalized. It's internalized white supremacy. [Speaker 1] (47:50 - 47:54) I mean, of course, that's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is. [Speaker 2] (47:56 - 48:15) What we're hitting on, I think, oh, sorry. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, just the way you said before, I think also people don't understand the shadow side of like the activist archetype. And I feel like very often it's like a self-abnegation. It's like, I have to put all my focus on the external world because I don't want to shine a light on my own consciousness and the reality of my own being. [Speaker 1] (48:16 - 49:06) Yes. I totally agree. And I've also been thinking a lot about, I did a podcast episode about splitting, you know, that when you're a kid and everything's like, you know, good or bad only. I do agree. I think there's so much discomfort going on internally, the things that a lot of people don't want to deal with. So they just externalize it, you know, the way people hate on certain politicians. I'm not going to get into which ones because people can figure that shit out. But you know, where people are obsessed with one politician or another and it's like they've made themselves all good. And this one figure on television is all bad, is the cause of all bad things. I say to people, okay, let's take X politician and get rid of them. Problem solved. And they go, yeah, really? Yeah. Really? That's going to solve the problem? Think about it. No, no, that's going to solve the problem. [Speaker 2] (49:07 - 49:12) Then there's another group of people that can like just project that that person is all good. And there's zero bad. [Speaker 1] (49:12 - 49:39) Correct. Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm so interested because I was somebody that was locked in a system where I thought I was right. And then I woke up and realized, oh my fucking God, did I get that wrong? I am so interested. And I talk to people about this all the time on my podcast or when I meet them in like imagining for a moment that this thing you believe so strongly, what if it's not true? What if? [Speaker 2] (49:39 - 49:42) I was raised Jehovah's Witness. So I'm very familiar. [Speaker 1] (49:42 - 50:15) Yes. So, you know, like, because everybody's so sure of their position. That's why I'm not sure about a lot of stuff. You know, if you start to talk to me about God, what God is and God isn't, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. And I'm not going to kill anybody over it. And I'm not going to yell at anybody over it because I don't know. It's too fucking mysterious. You know, it's just mysterious. And we can all agree it's mysterious, you know, and anybody who comes in my orbit and says it's not mysterious, it's this, this, this. Here's a thousand page book describing it. I'm like, okay, well, you know, good for you. [Speaker 2] (50:15 - 50:51) You're speaking my language. I mean, I just can't stop talking about this need for certainty and this need to convince people that you're certain. I just like, I just, it rubs me the wrong way. And because I've been there in my life, banging people over the head with this is it, this is this, this is that, this is the truth. And I'm just like, I like living in, I don't know. I like having, being able to hold the tension of opposites within and to like maybe have some convictions, but at the same time to go like, well, what if I'm wrong? What if I'm not wrong? You know, and to dance, to dance with that and to hold and to like, I don't know, it just feels more rich and more full than to just be so self-righteous and so sure of myself. [Speaker 1] (50:51 - 51:46) Exactly. And also if we are to, as everybody wants to have diversity, the way you have diversity is this attitude. That's how you have diversity. You know, you're not like shopping to make people wrong about stuff. You're curious because you don't know yourself and you want to hear somebody's perspective. Yeah. I'm genuinely interested now when I, when I hear people say things, I start to dive deeper. It's not, sometimes it's in person. Usually it's on the, on the internet. I dive into their social media account because I'm trying to understand why do they say this thing? What is going on that they're so impassioned about this thing? Not because I think they're an idiot, because I'm trying to figure out like what's going on that they believe this thing so much? Have I ever believed something that much? And usually the answer is yes. The answer is usually yes. I have been just as fanatical as what I'm seeing in them. And then I dig down and go, why was it? And I go, well, cause I had this fear. And I go, I wonder if they have that fear or a fear similar to it. [Speaker 2] (51:46 - 52:16) You know, this is why the inner work is so important to be able to sit with your vulnerability or, you know, your inner child or whatever the case may be, or just get to know different parts of you. Because when someone says something that triggers you, like if you don't have the capacity to sit in that unknown, which is a vulnerable state, you're just going to go straight into dismissal and ridicule and judging the other person. Like if you sit there even for a split second of like, well, what if they're right? What does that mean about what I believe? [Speaker 1] (52:16 - 52:17) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (52:17 - 52:18) A whole different story. [Speaker 1] (52:19 - 53:51) Yeah. And you know, I want to give you some nuance with that as well now, just because this is interesting because this is what my cult leader did as well, but he did it really to destabilize us, where you never stop questioning, what if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong? Where it got used as a weapon, something really beautiful. Cause I think that what if I'm wrong is a phenomenal question. And unfortunately it's like the scalpel thing, you know, you can use it to fix or kill. He used it to destabilize people to the point that they didn't have any idea of what was what, you know, where they couldn't even figure out. Cause I think one of the most important things is for people to figure out is, you know, is what are you drawn to? You know, what are you not drawn to? You know, what is goodness for you? You know, what is not good for you? You know, I think it's part of, you know, initial identity. And so he was trying to break that apart. But I do think that the open-mindedness to wonder, like when I, when I lose my, when I lose my shit, I'm always fascinated after it's not usually during, during I'm right. After I lose my shit, I'm like, well, that was fascinating. What the fuck happened there? And then I always go like, what was that really about? Because I don't think it was about what I think it was about. I think it was about something else. I think it was about some childhood wound or something, you know, someplace where I felt I didn't maintain my boundaries as a child. Maybe, maybe that got triggered, but I'm really fascinated at what happened. [Speaker 2] (53:52 - 53:52) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (53:52 - 54:05) I think that curiosity is important. I wish I had that during my, my, um, you know, when I, when I lose my shit, but usually it's my wife going, calm down, calm down, breathe. You know, she's usually the one telling me to breathe. [Speaker 2] (54:06 - 55:34) Yeah. I've seen firsthand someone who I would consider a narcissist weaponize. They're like, how can you be sure? How can you know what if you're wrong against you as well, but it's only powerful against you as long as you still have that person on a pedestal or still need someone else's approval to like, you know, justify and to confirm what you're thinking and your discoveries, um, et cetera, et cetera. But see, I think we have spirituality, you know, and self-development like the wrong way around. We shouldn't be looking to God initially. We shouldn't be looking to the metaphysical, the mysticism, et cetera. We need to start with objectivity. And this is why, like, I'm such a big fan of like Ayn Rand, the rationalists, the individualists, because we need to really get a grasp on the facts of reality first and foremost. Otherwise we're going to get so lost in disillusion, simply looking out there for answers, you know, like what are the facts? I'm a human being. I exist. I have needs that need to be met. I have this internal world, which I need to bring congruence to. I have, I experience guilt. I experience desire, I experience, you know, urges such as manipulation and lying. Okay. That doesn't mean something's inherently wrong with me. I need to deal with these contradictions because there shouldn't be contradictions. You know, I, every, everything that I'm experiencing is there for a reason. So how do I grapple with that and work with that? So I feel like a coherent, congruent human being. And then it's from that place of grounded groundedness that I can look up and start asking those bigger questions. [Speaker 1] (55:35 - 55:39) Tell me just a bit more about there shouldn't be incongruencies. [Speaker 2] (55:39 - 56:21) Well, so what I mean by that is that like, you know, culture, religion, et cetera, wants to say that we shouldn't experience desire. We shouldn't experience urges of manipulation or lust or et cetera, et cetera. And what I'm saying is that there's nothing inherently wrong with you. We all have those experiences. It's just, how do we fit them into our own personal philosophical framework? So they're not driving the wheel of our life, as opposed to taking on what spirituality or what religion is saying to mean that, oh, this is wrong. So each time that you experience, you know, any of these quote unquote negative emotions, you know, self-lash yourself, so to speak. Yes. [Speaker 1] (56:21 - 56:35) Yes. Yeah. No, I totally agree with you. It's so interesting, that program, you know, wherever we got it from, you know, where we punish ourselves for this, for just being who we are. Yeah, man. But somehow the way we are is a problem. [Speaker 2] (56:36 - 56:39) Look at, look at the Garden of Eden story. Why was Adam kicked out of Eden? [Speaker 1] (56:40 - 56:42) Why the fuck was he kicked out? That's bullshit. [Speaker 2] (56:42 - 56:53) He sought knowledge, right? He wanted to know more about reality. He wanted to know more about himself. He had passions, he had desires, you know, he wanted to have sex, like, fuck. [Speaker 1] (56:53 - 57:01) I think it was the first corporation trying to control humanity. That was why they made that story. It was the first PSYOP. [Speaker 2] (57:01 - 57:28) Yeah, man. Well, if you look into the roots of Gnosticism, it's very, very interesting because I place the roots of Gnosticism at the base of a lot of this stuff. And the roots of Gnosticism basically says that you don't belong here. You are a soul trapped in the prison of your body, and you are in the prison of your body, trapped in the prison of the planet. And your primordial, ultimate goal in life is to escape all of this, right? And that's at the base of the collective psyche. [Speaker 1] (57:30 - 57:37) Yes, it's insane. It's insane. I was thinking about that the other day. I was thinking about walking around thinking I'm in prison. [Speaker 2] (57:38 - 57:38) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (57:38 - 57:45) Okay. Then you're in prison. I mean, like, we're not getting, we're only getting out one way. So like, here we are. [Speaker 2] (57:45 - 58:08) Yeah. Your entire life needs to be atonement for this sin and this guilt, which you just inherited from everyone else, that you had nothing to do with. That's the only reason for your living. Yeah. I don't understand how it's healthy to tell someone that like, to transcend their body or their body is a prison, when like, this is what we're experiencing the world in. You know, we have a nervous system. [Speaker 1] (58:09 - 58:41) Yeah. I think it's a way to dissociate people, because the more dissociated people are, the more controllable they are, you know? And you know, I have, you know, at different times in my life, you know, looked into like, the kinds of stuff that intelligence agencies do, and they're very aware of how to destabilize people. That's why a lot of the sort of the programming that I'm seeing in the world, and I don't just mean like media programming, but just the kinds of things that get put out, they seem engineered. [Speaker 2] (58:41 - 58:41) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (58:42 - 59:25) You know, because when you go back and read the manuals of what intelligence agents are taught, I mean, people that like, you know, interrogation people, for instance, it's kind of what's happening on a world scale. You know, like you destabilize everybody, you terrify everybody, and then you get them to the point that they're so desperate, then you give them something to hold on to, you know, and you capture, you capture them completely. And I see the same thing happen. I mean, I was looking at the news, I'm always making jokes, like, okay, so that's not working. And what's, so now it's aliens. Okay, now it's fog. Now it's fucking what, like, seriously, guys, like, who are you people that keep on coming up with this bullshit? And people keep believing it. [Speaker 2] (59:25 - 59:27) That's, that's the thing very often. [Speaker 1] (59:27 - 59:29) I know. I know. [Speaker 2] (59:29 - 59:32) I feel like the numbers might be getting a little less, but. [Speaker 1] (59:33 - 1:00:03) Yeah. And I think that's one of my obsessions is to, I want to teach people about patterns as opposed to, like, I'm not that interested in talking about specific politicians. Because I think the minute you get caught in specifics, you lose the pattern. Like if everyone's just so focused on like, you know, I don't know, the fog, it's all about the fog. You might miss the pattern of, yeah, but the year before it was about this, and the year before it was about this, and the year before, you need to see the pattern of over the years. What's the, what's your, your profile, what's the thing around your profile picture? [Speaker 2] (1:00:04 - 1:00:04) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:00:05 - 1:00:17) You know, that, that you're supposed to do this year, because if you do that, then you're a good person. You know, that pattern to me is far more interesting than the specifics of what is being expected of us. [Speaker 2] (1:00:17 - 1:00:30) Yeah. Well, people also get way more defensive when you get, you start talking about specifics, they get more emotionally attached to it. So when you kind of zoom out and look at the patterns, I think an individual that might be hijacked by certain specific things can, might be able to hear things and see things. [Speaker 1] (1:00:30 - 1:02:01) Yes. Yes. In fact, so, so when I was just pre-waking up, my wife had already woken up from the cult, and she was talking to an exit counselor, and they were talking about how to help me. And so what they did is, is she would instruct my wife, my wife would put in front of me things that talked about patterns, because the, the cult exit counselor said, do not criticize the cult leader, he will just clamp down completely. You have to talk about things that are adjacent, that are related. So one of the things she did that was very smart is there was an, there's an actor, his name's Jason Begay. And Jason Begay is in a bunch of big TV shows, I've forgotten, like cop shows, and I love him as an actor. And so she said to me one day, hey, I see that Jason's got this video, because he's just like, come out of Scientology, and he's talking about Scientology, we should watch it. And I watched this like two and a half, three hour video, and I'm like, oh, that's really cool. But what she was doing was implanting in me multiple different variations of what I was in, to help me see the pattern. And I wasn't, I didn't have any charge on Scientology. So I would listen. I didn't have any charge on words like high control group or high conflict group. I had charge on the word cult. So she could never use that word. And so that's what in the end helped me wake up, is as I watched more and more things, I was like, oh my fucking God, this is the same, you know? Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:02:02 - 1:02:07) What was the specific, was there a specific aha moment of like WTF? [Speaker 1] (1:02:09 - 1:03:49) It's hard to say. I mean, there was a moment, there were a number of moments, but one of the moments was, and I think this is in The Vow, because my phone calls with him were recorded. In The Vow, yeah, it's in The Vow, I think. I called him one day and I questioned him about things I was hearing. And I said to him, you know, there's all these girls that you're hitting on. He goes, I'm not hitting. I said, well, you are Skyping with them. And he goes, no. And I go, yeah. And I said, I thought you didn't use Skype. I tried to Skype with you fucking 10 years at times. And I thought, I thought you didn't do that. He goes, I don't. And I knew he was lying. And so I kept on pushing and he lied. And I was like, oh my fucking God, he just lied to me. That moment was so interesting because that moment was like the floodgates open, because in that moment, I thought if he lied about this, what else is he lying about? And then I began asking questions about this and asking questions about that. And then he was saying, well, tell me who these women are. And then I said, if I tell you, and you're the head of this organization, like I think you might be, then you'll release their collateral. He's like, I would never do that. I said, okay, I'm crazy. And he's like, oh, I'm not saying you're crazy. It was this weird dance. And I realized, you motherfucker, you're lying. You're lying. You're lying. So that was one of the big moments, you know, cause this was somebody that I really trusted to tell the truth. [Speaker 2] (1:03:49 - 1:03:57) But did you, did you start waking up and then start recording and filming things without his knowing that you were becoming disillusioned with it all? [Speaker 1] (1:03:59 - 1:05:19) So the weird thing was that pretty much all our conversations were recorded, you know, but what, what happened is that I woke up and I, and I was still running an intensive in, in, uh, in Venice actually. And I went to the intensive realizing what was going on. And I basically went to some of the people and I said, you need to get out, you need to get out. They were like, what? I said, listen, all your girlfriends are being invited into something. Do not let them get involved, get them out, get them out. So that I was doing, but I was recording all the conversations. There was one conversation where he once said to me, uh, don't record this, you know, but it was just part of what we always did because what usually happened is, you know, cause he was such a brilliant mind. Like when we finished a conversation, I'd transcribe everything and I'd read what he said and try and understand the deeper meanings and shit like that. Um, his need to be lionized in the future is part of his downfall because he wanted everything recorded, you know? Um, but yeah, there's incredible things that were recorded. I mean, we couldn't even get, you know, we got some stuff in the vow, but there's a lot of good shit that, uh, you know, the world's never heard. That's pretty fucking amazing. Maybe one day, maybe one day I'll let it out. [Speaker 2] (1:05:21 - 1:05:52) Yeah. Yeah. What you were saying before about, you know, the patterns and about how we're constantly fed something like, you know, month after month, year after year, like my, my curiosity and my question is like, if there was no audience, there would be no need for the theater, you know? So what is it within the individuals that needs to continue to watch this movie and needs this clickbaitness? Because the most viral things on the internet is shit like this. [Speaker 1] (1:05:55 - 1:05:57) I don't know. The question is like, why do people want to see this stuff? [Speaker 2] (1:05:59 - 1:06:11) Yeah. Like, that's my key. Like what's like, instead of like being like, Oh, why are they doing that? Why are they trying to control us? Like for me, it's like, no, what's happening within you that needs us to keep happening, you know? And I think that's where people's work really, really lies. [Speaker 1] (1:06:11 - 1:09:47) I think so. You know, um, I did this cool course. There's a, there's a psychologist. His name is Richard Grannon and, um, familiar. Yeah. Richard and I, he's like a narcissism expert and Richard and I recorded a course last year about it's called narcissistic cults decoders, something like that. It's about the similarities between, uh, narcissistic relationships and, and costs because they're, they're virtually identical. And one of the things we talk about, and this is, it's, we have to be very cautious because people are very sensitive about being about victim blaming, but we talk about, look, there are some, like some conditions in us that make us gravitate towards these situations. We're not causing the person to be a psychopath, but we are gravitating towards us. For instance, I wanted spiritual evolution of some kind. I wanted cessation of pain. And what I saw in my leader was somebody who was unperturbed by stuff, not bothered by stuff. Um, later I realized that wasn't true later. I actually was bothered by stuff, but I didn't understand that I wasn't looking at somebody who is spiritually evolved. I was looking at a psychopath who didn't have anxiety about all the shit I had anxiety about. So I was gravitating towards a solidness that I wanted because of, of something lacking in myself, you know, of this need to have an external anchor, because I refused to engage my own anchor. That part is on me. Now, did I know what I was saying? No, that doesn't mean like, well, I made a mistake. No, I was just being me. I was being me with my program, with my upbringing. And then when I hit the fucking wall of reality, I was like, oh shit, what is going on that I keep on doing this? And then I looked back and I thought, oh, that's what's going on. And then I began to, as you say, address those things, you know, why, why this need? What is it about our own light as a species, generally speaking, that we just do not want to engage with? Why? What is so terrifying about this? There's something inside of us that is so brilliant, so bright, so staggering. And, and people will touch it sometimes in a meditation, or they'll be like in nature, and they suddenly like touch the face of the fucking universe, and they're like, what the fuck? And it's so scary and big and massive that it's painful. I'm so interested in what in us does not want to engage with that part of ourselves, but looks externally for it instead, with this like pathological need, but will not stop and turn inwards, you know, because I could say to you, that refusal of mine to connect deeply with myself may have caused some of the bad choices I made. Again, I'm not blaming myself. It's just, it's a way I was raised and the things I went through, and I didn't understand that yet. And once I, you know, as I said, once I hit the wall of reality, and I, and I rethought things, I would realize, you know, I need to really turn inside, not like turn inside in the way I had been for decades and doing spiritual mumbo jumbo, like really, really go inside, you know? Yeah. Yeah, man, for sure. [Speaker 2] (1:09:48 - 1:10:10) One of the, one of the things that I've noticed, you know, particularly through my own personal experiences, you know, with Jehovah's Witnesses and whatnot, is like this need for specialness, you know, in a really inauthentic way, you know, specialness in terms of like, yeah, someone else telling me I'm special, but also specialness in terms of, I have this secret truth that no one else has, you know, and I was lucky enough to find it. [Speaker 1] (1:10:11 - 1:11:27) Yes, no, exactly. And actually, one of the things on that video I did, it's called the secret knowledge, you know, like you're offered secret knowledge, and that there's that part of us, it's a very childlike narcissistic impulse to want to be special. Like, I've been in different groups, you know, where we studied a bunch of psychic phenomena and try to increase our psychic phenomena. And like, I imagined myself wanting to have all these psychic abilities, which made me feel better than the really insecure way I felt about myself. If I imagined myself having special powers, and then in NXIVM, in the last organization I was in, there was a certain intellectual prowess, you know, people would come in to take trainings with us, and he had taught us to see people like computer programs, and just listen to them, and listen to them, and listen to them, and start to map out. You know, remember in Minority Report, that whole heads-up display thing? It was like that. A person would talk, and you'd map everything out, and you write stuff down, you'd write out what they were saying, and you'd start to get a map of their psyche that you could then ask them questions and repeat things, and they would go like, oh, the fuck did you know that? And it wasn't that hard, because, you know, you were mapping out what they were saying. [Speaker 2] (1:11:27 - 1:11:29) Is this like an NLP kind of exercise? [Speaker 1] (1:11:29 - 1:13:08) Kind of like NLP, yeah. But that feeling of like being superior, you know, is like crack cocaine if you feel very insecure, and you don't feel superior. Suddenly, you know, you're in a position where you feel like you have the special sauce, and it's very, very attractive, and that's one of the things they do, is they tell you we're going to give you tools to have abilities that when you meet people and you talk to them, they're going to think that you're psychic, and you're not. You're just using science, and I was like, that sounds fucking great, you know. And my friend Sarah Edmondson, you know, my co-whistleblower, you know, the one that showed her old brand to the New York Times and everything, my first meeting with Sarah on a cruise ship, it was a film festival at sea, and her boyfriend, who's a director, had a film there, and I was one of the judges, and I was having dinner with her and her boyfriend, and I saw some stuff she was doing, and I pointed it out to her, and she was so blown away, because it was totally true, totally accurate, and it shifted something for her, like just in a few, you know, a few minutes, and I felt this feeling of like, god damn it, what, like the abilities I have now, this is awesome, you know, and she was like, oh my god, how do you know this, and then she was like, I'm going to come and do this, the shit you're doing, you know, but I agree with you, there's a, there's a, it's a terrible temptation, and again, if I had really had the tools in my life and the willingness to dive into my insecurity, I wouldn't have the need for specialness, but I didn't know any better at that point. [Speaker 2] (1:13:09 - 1:13:17) Yeah, you mentioned it, so I'd like to kind of enlighten those that don't know, can you speak into what branding is and was within Nixxiom? [Speaker 1] (1:13:18 - 1:16:35) Yeah, basically, you know, so, so Nixxiom was a, was a, was a, you know, human performance program, you know, a so-called business program, but basically what it was, you know, the outside of it anyway, was to help people defrag their, you know, limiting beliefs and, you know, help them become more ethical and moral and decisive and a whole bunch of things to clean up their, their, their psychology. But inside of that, on a deeper level, what he was doing was he had a whole bunch of women that were, were swearing vows of obedience. In order to really, like, get themselves to the next level, they would swear, you know, vows of obedience that they would do whatever they were told to do. Sort of like being, you know, in the army, the tip of the spear kind of thing. It was just a point the spear wherever. And what they were doing was they were giving collateral that could be used against them. That's how serious their commitment was. What none of them realized is that he was at the top of everything. So it looked like a boot camp for women, but it was actually, he was controlling everything. And so once a person had already given collateral, like naked pictures or pornographic pictures or, you know, false confessions, like my father raped me, which wasn't true, or, you know, pins to all my credit cards and, you know, bank information, whatever, they were trapped. And so they kept on asking these women to do more and more, and they couldn't say no because they had the threats of the blackmail hanging over their head. And then at a certain point, you know, he came up with the idea of like branding them with a symbol, a sacred symbol, like right on their pubic bone, like right near their vagina. And when I first saw the brand, my friend Sarah showed it to me, I was like, oh my fucking God, that's his initials. And so what we began to understand is that his initials were being stamped, like, and what was happening is, is without anesthetic, they were being held down by the woman and a doctor was using a cauterizing pen to burn the brand, the symbol, you know, on their pubic bone mound. I mean, really close, you know. And that's what made us finally realize that, oh God, it's like he's branding cattle, like this is what they do with prostitutes. This is what, you know, men that are running prostitution rings do with their prostitutes, they literally brand them. And when we told people that that's what they were doing, they wouldn't believe us. I mean, there was a lot of disbelief as we were trying to tell people like, this is the shit that's really going on, you know, they just wouldn't believe us because it seemed so weird. Like, why would this saintly philosophical scientist be, you know, branding women? And he was basically, at the end, he was saying, well, this has nothing to do with me. And I was like, it definitely has something to do with you, you know. But that's what, that's what the branding was, you know. It was some dark shit. And also just, just to understand, people understand that because they were all collateralized with blackmail over their head, he could do whatever he wanted. He could instruct a slave below him to tell this girl to meet him, you know, in a shed so he could go fuck her. And they couldn't say no. You know, they could say no, but then their shit would be released into the world. And they, you know, they would be disowned by, you know, their families or whatever. So they were put in a horrible, horrible position. [Speaker 2] (1:16:37 - 1:16:39) It's amazing what fear will make you do. [Speaker 1] (1:16:41 - 1:17:42) Yeah. Yeah. Which is why, you know, the, the, the, the woman that decided to walk away, like in, you know, Sarah, you know, we did this elaborate thing where she was heading back to upstate New York and I had arranged for her to, um, do a detour. And we made up a story that somebody was sick in her family and I got her to the FBI, you know, she was sitting with the FBI because they were, they were wanting, because I said to them, like, I can give you, you know, people that will talk to you. And they were looking for like underage sex and financial crimes. And this, I was sending people into them. Um, but it was a big risk. The woman that actually spoke out, it was a big risk because they had given a lot of collateral. That was very embarrassing. You know, it was very difficult for them. And I said to them, I said, look, I can't guarantee it. I don't think they're going to use it because if they use the collateral, then it's going to basically make them look more guilty. They did actually release somebody's collateral during the trial. And, um, and a part of me was like, good, you just fucked yourself. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:17:42 - 1:17:43) Wow. [Speaker 1] (1:17:44 - 1:17:44) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:17:45 - 1:17:48) So Nixxiom as part of their defense released somebody's collateral. [Speaker 1] (1:17:50 - 1:18:49) Well, they didn't officially, I know who did. I know who did. Um, one of the people that had a video of the branding ceremony of, of one of the lead witnesses released that, uh, because what they wanted the world to see is that she had agreed. She had consented. Now, if I blackmail you, you know, with some really bad shit, and then I make you say, I consent to this. You're going to say, I consent to this. And I video record you. Now, the question is, is that consent? Well, the answer is fucking no. Yeah. And so they video recorded her asking to be branded because that was part of the protocol. Plus, what's she going to say? No. Well, fuck you. You know, you have all these confessions that you've made, which are not true that are going to get released to the world. So what do you do? You just, you know, and then you have the pressure, which happens in cults of like, well, I want to be strong, you know? [Speaker 2] (1:18:49 - 1:18:49) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:18:49 - 1:19:18) Like who, like any man who thinks, oh, that's bullshit. Well, imagine being in the military where you're required to do something and they say, do it. What are you going to say? No, I'm not going to do it. Fuck you're going to do it. You know, in the military, you're going to fucking do it. You don't want to be that person. So there's so many complexities to it, but yeah, somebody released that video. And, um, uh, I heard a rumor that it was going to be released. I do remember telling the FBI, I think it's going to get released. And then it was, which didn't help them at all. [Speaker 2] (1:19:18 - 1:19:18) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:19:19 - 1:19:21) You know, man. [Speaker 2] (1:19:21 - 1:19:43) Yeah. It's, this is wild. You know, when you think about all of this, um, I wanted to ask you something more because it's been, I guess my observation that when I, I find that people that have maybe healed from narcissistic abuse or maybe exited a cult, they tend to see things like this and behaviors that like government, you know, do as well. Do you, do you find that that's the case as well? [Speaker 1] (1:19:43 - 1:21:29) So here's an interesting thing. A lot of my close friends, we can see it. A lot of the cult experts can't, and we don't understand why we're so fascinated. One of the things I think that happens, not to everybody, but you know, in a cult you are, you reject the government, you reject the medical world, you reject psychology, reject all these things. Then you come out and you realize these people were fuckers and did bad things. And then with some people, they then embrace the opposite. So now everything the government says is true. Everything Big Pharma says is true. Everything the psychological community says is true because that was untrue, but all of this is true. You know, I am interested in the fact that there are a number of people who've been either in abusive relationships or in cults who can see the last four years, especially what's been going on. It's very clear. Like, I don't have to have known anything about the content of what's been going on, but literally the pattern of coercion is what led me to think something about this is awfully familiar. And so a bunch of us were like, Oh Jesus Christ, we left the cult and here we are again, same thing again. But what is interesting to me is that a good amount of the experts, the experts, you know, the academics can't see it. And I'm really, really fascinated. Like I, I'll talk to them about the pattern and then I'll talk to them about, um, the, this pattern is occurring in government and they'll immediately go, Oh yes, the other side does this all the time. And I'm thinking to myself, really? [Speaker 2] (1:21:30 - 1:21:30) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:21:30 - 1:23:42) It's the best you got the other side. And I'll say, don't you think that our side is doing it as well? And they go, no, no, no, no. I said, really? Don't you think that we're being coerced? No. And I'm like, good Lord. And then what, what I've understand eventually is that there's many reasons, but one of the things I understand is that people are not media literate. They don't understand what's happening in media. Like there are people like I, I shot news when I was much younger. So I was, you know, I went into townships and I shot stuff and then I went back home and I watched the television and the stuff I shot and then lying about what happened, lying about who killed who. Like, and I'm like, that's not what happened. And that's, that means you think like, Jesus Christ, they just, they're all lying. So I think what happens is, especially with American media, it's so slick that people are not media literate enough to understand that if you're seeing the same thing again and again, if something's being pushed really, really hard, like it's not because they care about you. It's because it serves the corporation that funds them. You are literally a puppet with the corporation's arm up your ass or the CIA's arm up your ass. That's what's going on. And that they, they don't see that they see what they think is independent thinkers and independent journalists. So that's interesting to me. I think that people are much more easily brainwashed by the media than I thought was possible. However, I am seeing a shift now because now I'm seeing more and more people are seeing that, that there's a lot of lies going on, you know? So I'm hopeful because the mainstream media is not changing their tactics. They're doing exactly the same thing. But a lot of other people are saying, Oh my God, you're doing the same thing. Like, don't you know that we can see? And they don't, they don't know that we can see because they live in a, the people that broadcast things live in an alternate world of, of, of kind of elitism and kind of power. They don't know what the common person is like. They've lost touch completely. [Speaker 2] (1:23:43 - 1:24:07) Yeah. And you can see it in the execution, you know, as well. It's so disconnected. You also think the people in academia, um, I don't want to call it like the cult of academia, but in some instances that people think they're too smart to be fooled, you know, look, I'm special. I'm, I went through the academic system. I have a PhD or whatever. I'm not saying all PhDs, but generally speaking. [Speaker 1] (1:24:07 - 1:26:08) I do. I do think it's that. And also on a very general level, I'm going to generalize it immensely. What I see with academia is academia is out of touch with reality. They're in the world of models and theory. You know, like I remember years ago when I was a camera technician, uh, and I worked at this camera house, you know, for like movie cameras. And I worked at this camera house, you know, in between jobs, because I wanted to learn that I was, I would work for work there for free. And I remember, um, we came back from a job in the desert and the desert, you know, it's this fine, fine particles of sand and it gets into everything. And the cameras would come back and they were fucking mess. And the engineers would be like, how are they not taking care of this shit? Like, how are they letting this happen? And I go, do you know what it's like being in a sandstorm? You can't protect shit. And if you're being told to roll, you roll, you're trying to cover shit with plastic, but it's getting in everywhere. And the technicians couldn't understand because they lived in white rooms with gloves. So they weren't in touch with how it was. And so what I would say to them is I said, go out in the field on set. Remember one day, this one guy, his name was, um, it was Mike Markham, wonderful guy. He went on set one day and he's like, Jesus Christ, it's like a fucking war. It's like a war because you're blowing shit up. You know, you like war movies, you're blowing shit up in the sandstorms and cameras are getting burnt. I mean, I've destroyed two, two cameras in my life, very expensive cameras. Academia is a bit like that. They don't live in the real world. They live in a world of theory. And so they don't have enough interaction with the real world. That's why they come up with some of the bizarre fucking bullshit they come up with and then are shocked that people are not on board, but then have a convenient understanding that basically the people that are not on board lack empathy and are sociopaths or, you know, they're right-wing extremists or whatever, because why wouldn't they, you know, embrace our brilliant ideas because we're going to redo Marxism, uh, for the seventh or eighth time. Cause this time we're going to get it right because none of the other people understood how it really works. [Speaker 2] (1:26:09 - 1:26:11) Yeah. It's just never been done properly before. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:26:12 - 1:26:14) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:26:15 - 1:26:56) Yeah. Man. Just looking back, you know, this time that we've lived in, you know, obviously you're both older than me, but like, it's just a trip how like each generation has their own lessons to grapple with and has their own disillusionments to kind of move through, you know, and like retrospectively, fuck, it feels like we've moved a long way, you know, when I really feel into it in terms of like, you know, late nineties, early two thousands. So kind of the conversations we're having now and what we're experiencing now, like things move quite rapidly in hindsight, I feel. [Speaker 1] (1:26:57 - 1:27:10) They do. And, but, you know, I feel like we're going through right now in North America is the loss of innocence, which is not a bad thing necessarily. [Speaker 3] (1:27:11 - 1:27:11) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:27:11 - 1:27:47) Cause I think you kind of grow up, you know, after the loss of innocence, you kind of grow up. I think the next few years is going to be more and more loss of innocence because I think that people have wanted to believe in certain things and believe in certain institutions. So I don't know. I look at, you know, the evolution of a person, you know, where you believe everything and everything's possible. And, you know, and then at a certain point there's disillusionment, but when there's disillusionment, it's usually about your parents. Oh my God, they're just fucking people. Yeah. They're not gods, you know, but then what happens is you, you find you, you make your own way. If you become an adult, maybe that's where we're heading. [Speaker 2] (1:27:47 - 1:28:12) Yeah. I hope. I personally enjoy the psychological wilderness. You know, I enjoy not having any clear, you know, benchmarks or institutions or whatnot. So kind of like point the way, cause that way, that way is always kind of bullshit. You know, I like, you know, as, as Rand would say, like, make your own mind, the final arbiter of truth. And I kind of feel like we're all, all to that precipice at this point in time. [Speaker 1] (1:28:13 - 1:28:31) I agree. Cause the other thing I'm seeing as well as people are so disillusioned, they're throwing everything out. Like it's all bullshit. You know, everybody's an asshole. I'm like, no, but I do think it's great to like, I think we need to turn back to our own values. Like what's important to me, like not stop obsessing about like how corrupt the government is. Yes. They're corrupt. [Speaker 2] (1:28:31 - 1:28:32) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:28:32 - 1:28:43) You know, I see that Mr. Mr. Trudeau is stepping down today. What a surprise. But like, you can't keep on focusing on he's the cause of all the problems. [Speaker 2] (1:28:43 - 1:28:43) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:28:45 - 1:29:23) Like at some point we have to turn back to ourself and say, yeah, but what do I want for my life despite what's going on? Because like people have been through this shit for like thousands of years. It hasn't really changed that much. We just technologically we're in a different place, but it hasn't changed that much. And I do think that the, this fire we're going through right now, I think it's going to turn us towards ourself because really in the end, we only have each other to rely on. And we're going to de-pedestalize, that's not a word, de-pedestalize all those people. What's the real word? I like that word. [Speaker 3] (1:29:24 - 1:29:24) Okay. [Speaker 1] (1:29:25 - 1:29:34) Whatever. I like that word. But that's what I think about, you know, we put all these people in a pedestal, we de-pedestalize them and like, now we're just left with ourselves. You know, how great, you know. [Speaker 2] (1:29:35 - 1:29:37) How empowering too, ultimately. Yes. [Speaker 1] (1:29:38 - 1:30:33) Yeah. And by the way, I mean, I, you know, and I dig your guys' podcast a lot because, you know, you guys are exploring a lot of things, which I love. I mean, I've listened to, I think about four episodes of yours. I really enjoyed it, you know, because I just, yeah, no, it's wonderful because I really like, and I enjoy that the different range of people and like you guys are, you know, you argue different positions sometimes. Well, I could see this and I could see that and that's good. I mean, I like the way you guys get pissed off about things. I think that's good as well. But I think this, this, I have this insatiable curiosity to try to figure out like, what's going on? How am I taking part in things? You know, what do I want for myself? You know, cause I've spent many, many years, you know, embroiled in like a certain kind of spirituality that wasn't very healthy. Putting basically my true locus of control and my true power outside of myself. And I'm really enjoying the experience of bringing it back. [Speaker 2] (1:30:34 - 1:30:34) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:30:34 - 1:31:24) You know, and I think it's funny. I remember when I was a kid, after I left where my grandparents used to live in the bush, I would always dream about the bush. I would dream about the bush because I had profound, profound experiences of connection in the bush. So I'd had these dreams. I was yearning to go back, yearning to go back. And then a couple of years ago I went back, but it wasn't the same, you know? And I was like, that's so interesting. And I realized what I was yearning for was I was yearning for the connection to myself that I experienced in that place. But it was never the place. It was never the bush. And the African bush is a profound, profound place. It's a beautiful, beautiful place. But it wasn't the African bush that caused me to have it. You know, that's where I had it. And I misidentified the profound, beautiful experiences that I had as a child as being connected to those places only. [Speaker 2] (1:31:26 - 1:33:03) No man steps in the same river twice. But it is not the same river and he's not the same man. Yes. Yes. Thank you for saying all that, you know, and thanks for listening to our podcast. You know, we want to put the focus back on the self, on the individual to do the work necessary to heal, to grow, to own yourself, to know what you like, to know what you value, and to bring it into the world and then to build communities based on honoring each other's individual nature in that regard. And we like to have lots of different conversations on a bunch of different subjects because, like, why not? I'm not going to say, Joel, I agree with every single thing that every one of our guests says. I mean, and like, we want things to come up to the surface. Like, why are people afraid to talk about, like, controversial subjects or even subjects that the consensus thinks, oh, that's fucking ridiculous. Like, let's let it bubble up to the surface. And what does that do to you? There's lessons in that. Like, if you're so triggered by a subject that you want to ridicule or dismiss, like, there's gold in there for the individual. And so, like, you know, we like to push the envelope a little bit. But ultimately, at the end of the day, like, you know, we're in the personal development world and, you know, we want people to own themselves and to truly embrace the I. Hell yeah, Guru is. Yeah, like, exactly. Like, fuck, like, the whole Guru world, I'm just like, I'm over it. Like, I don't ever want anyone to talk about depedestalized. I don't ever want anyone to put me on a pedestal. If someone tries to or has tried to in the past, I might receive that and say thank you and go, you know what, I'm a human. I'm fucked up. I do some shit that's not ideal. Like, I'm just on this journey, just like you. [Speaker 1] (1:33:05 - 1:33:43) Yeah, you're right. And that's one of the things, like, sometimes people ask me, like, what's the way to do X, Y and Z? I'm like, I don't know. You'll find a way because I don't want to be that. I want to be that person. I'm very involved in figuring it out for myself. You know? But the other thing I was thinking as you were talking is this whole thing of being terrified to speak. I think that, I think people are starting to find their voice again. And I think, like, I'm at the point now when I get negative stuff, people saying negative stuff and calling me this and calling me that. I'm like, you know what, fucking grow up now. Come on, it's time. It's time to grow up. It's time for me to stop negotiating with trying to have them understand. Like, just grow up. [Speaker 2] (1:33:43 - 1:33:43) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:33:43 - 1:33:59) You know, that's, the last few years has been the reign. Remember that period of time with that movie Revenge of the Nerds, which was, I don't know what time period that was. It's enough now. It's enough with, you know, revenge of the uptight fucking people. It's enough. [Speaker 2] (1:34:01 - 1:34:06) Yeah. I completely agree, man. I'm over the name calling that hominid attacks, like, whatever. [Speaker 1] (1:34:06 - 1:34:07) I'm so over it. [Speaker 2] (1:34:08 - 1:34:14) Like, cool. Do your thing. I'm going to continue living my life and creating a beautiful life with my wife and, you know, building what it's all. And then that's that. Like, okay. [Speaker 1] (1:34:15 - 1:34:15) No, exactly. [Speaker 2] (1:34:16 - 1:34:20) You can tell our old high school friends that I'm some crazy conspiracy theorist. Cool. [Speaker 1] (1:34:20 - 1:34:45) Yeah. No, exactly. I mean, and what I hear, by the way, when people are like that, I literally hear them, like they watch the news and then they turn around and do the news talking points. I'm like, I can't talk to you about anything serious if you're doing news talking points. The best I can do is how do you know that's true? Well, I know. How do you know? Well, because I saw it. Well, how do you know they know it's true? And at that point, their brain just rattles out, you know? [Speaker 2] (1:34:45 - 1:35:07) Yeah. And, you know, we're at an interesting point because the same thing is happening in the conspiracy world now, you know, like people are flipped away from, you know, bowing down to the mainstream narratives. Now every single conspiracy narrative is true. And every single conspiracy influencer has the truth. And anyone that disagrees with, you know, the opposite of what they thought was not true being the mainstream. And now, you know, they're getting attacked. [Speaker 1] (1:35:07 - 1:35:24) It's crazy. Interesting. The conspiracy wars. Like I see this podcast comes out and then this one debunks that one. And that one debunks this. I'm like, guys, fucking take a chill pill, you know? That's a great t-shirt. Take a chill pill. [Speaker 2] (1:35:24 - 1:35:36) I like it, man. Thank you so much for your time. I'm so glad that we were able to connect and for you to be here. I know you're good friends with Lou Vermeer as well. Yes. Favorite episode of ours. We absolutely love that. It was such a good episode. [Speaker 1] (1:35:36 - 1:35:38) What an amazing human being. [Speaker 2] (1:35:39 - 1:35:44) He is an amazing human being. There's no doubt about that. You know, he is deep. [Speaker 1] (1:35:44 - 1:35:45) He is deep. [Speaker 2] (1:35:46 - 1:35:56) You can feel it too, right? We're like immediately sitting down and like, there is something about him. Anyways, it's just... Maybe. I think Lou Vermeer should start a cult. I might join that one. [Speaker 1] (1:35:56 - 1:36:53) He could. He could. I don't think it would sit well with him. But the thing I like about Lou He was in Lisbon for a while and then we were hanging out and, you know, going out to places and stuff. Every time I would ever ask him a question, you know, he always took a moment and it was like he was always checking in. What do I really feel or believe about this thing at the moment? Like he was never just spouting out like something he read or something he prepared. It was always just checking in. And I love that because like for me, that's something I'm trying to do is like when people ask me questions about stuff, I don't want to just come out with the intellectual thing. I want to check in like, how does it feel today? Because today might be different than yesterday. And that's what I love about Lou Vermeer. So his, I don't know if it's a striving for authenticity or just like that's his mission or whatever, but like that man is authentic, you know? Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:36:54 - 1:37:16) Yeah, exactly, man. And the fruit is in his production. You know, you look at his, you look at his art and you get a deep sense of, you know, the internal things that are happening and he, his overall philosophy, you know, which is what art should be. True art should simply be, you know, the outward expression of one's internal experience. And, you know, you get a good of course through his as well for sure. [Speaker 1] (1:37:16 - 1:37:28) Exactly. Exactly. I should be his agent. You know that? I should tell him. I should be his agent, man. I'll say good shit about you. You'll never say about yourself. Yeah, exactly. Mark, thank you so much for your time, man. [Speaker 2] (1:37:28 - 1:37:36) Is there anything you'd like to leave our audience with in closing? And also, you know, if you'd like to turn their attention to any particular works or upcoming works of your own? [Speaker 1] (1:37:37 - 1:37:57) Yeah. I mean, I think just in terms of like the stuff I'm doing, I mean you know, follow me on Instagram and my website markpacinto.com and then just go to my website. It's called empathynotincluded.com. So www.empathy not included.com. That's where there'll be information about that film, which will be coming out this year. [Speaker 2] (1:37:57 - 1:37:57) Amazing. [Speaker 1] (1:37:58 - 1:38:51) You know, I don't really have a particular message. I just think like the, you know, thinking about just circling back to my friend Mike, you know, who just passed away yesterday. You know, the thing that he and I both talked about is like that the mission was to help free people's minds, you know, to take the shackles off of people so that they had the freedom to explore and express their true self. And I think that that's really the most important thing. And that's why I am not a fan of, you know, true cults and coercive environments is because they suppress that. And what I want for people, as I want for myself, because I also want to take my own shackles off myself, but I want to do everything I can to help take shackles off people's mind and perception so that they can see themselves more clearly. That's what I love doing. [Speaker 2] (1:38:52 - 1:39:40) Beautiful man. And it's a beautiful mission and we're completely on board with that for sure. Thanks for being here. Everyone else, thank you for listening and we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening guys. Great to be back podcasting again. If you want to view this whole episode in full, you can head to hereforthetruth.com. You can view all our episodes there as well, which are categorized by the topics that we have, psychology, spirituality, government, conspiracy, freedom, all the rest of it, but also just an amazing number of resources there as well. You can hit on the coaching and office tab, learn more about our upcoming 10-week program, Rise Above The Herd, which we're running for the 12th time, or you can jump into a number of our quizzes for a deeper self-reflection. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this episode and stay on the path and we'll see you next time.