Taylor Perkins Out of Mormonism & into the Mirror

[Speaker 2] All right, today joining us, we have Taylor Perkins, and he's just a dude on social media using content to help people get out of their own way and reconnect to themselves. I recently joined Taylor for a special series he's doing, I don't think it's out yet, going into the Hero's Journey. And so during that episode, which I recorded with Taylor, was just so resonant and so on the same page and such mutuality when it comes to, I think, how we perceive the world, spirituality, life. So we've invited him here to hear the truth, to dive deep into his Hero's Journey, to kick this one off. But firstly, man, Taylor, welcome, bro. [Speaker 1] Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, you know, it's really cool, that little project I'm doing, it is just amazing to see how everybody is so aligned, but in their own unique way, you know, it kind of makes it obvious how there's like these pieces of the puzzle that are kind of going together in the background, you know, like all these things are coming together. And I left our conversation with the same, you know, feeling, I was just like, man, we resonate on such a deep level. So I appreciate you having me. [Speaker 2] Nah, definitely, bro. There's many paths up the mountain, as they say, that's for sure. Dude, I want to dive deep, man. I want to get real, wherever you call to start, bro, like how's the journey begin for you? Like what are the major rites of passage, the major catalyzing moments that really led to the kind of path that you find yourself on today? [Speaker 1] Oh my God, man. So I grew up Mormon, which is like a very, very, you know, like most people know, kind of like the Christian framework and the worldview that that brings. And within Mormonism, it's really, really unique as well, because not only is it kind of like Christian, but it's like, we are the only true Christians, right? Like we are the only ones, and I know that you and I kind of have that like common ground where it's that, you know, it's really fascinating because I actually this past weekend was at a retreat and there happened to be three ex-Mormons as well. And I was just telling them, I was like, you know, it is amazing that you've expanded past that, because really the programming that you receive from a child is this programming that is just like service to ego, right? Because it's like, you're a chosen one. You're the only one with the truth. And anybody that challenges your perspective is Satan, you know? And it's just like, you have like all the programming to like keep you in that box. And my parents, especially my mother, like she has religious OCD. Like she's very obsessive about it. And so, you know, I was born into a family with six kids. I'm the second oldest. I'm 12 months younger than my older brother. And he's like a very, very stubborn, like headstrong dude. And I came, you know, with this energy that's just like so much more like loving, kind of like people pleaser, you know, whatever. And so, my entire life within that Mormon system, it's, you know, it's a very patriarchal, hierarchical structure. And so, they have hierarchies no matter where you are. And, you know, my mom would always talk about, you know, when you were born, I just knew in my bones, like, she's like, I felt the Spirit say so clearly, like, this boy is going to be a leader, right? And so, for her, it's like, he's going to be a leader in the church, you know? Is he going to become an apostle or a prophet, one of these leaders? And so, there was always this, like, attention on me growing up from my parents and people around me, like, putting me in these leadership positions. And I honestly hated it. I hated it because I've always just had this disdain for, like, hierarchy, you know, where it's just like, I'm like, this is stupid, you know? Because people would tie their value in the church so much to the position that they held. Because within the Mormon church, it is all service-based. There's no paid clergy until you're, like, in the higher ups, right? But, like, the local churches, it's all service-based. And so, what people tie your title to is basically how righteous you are, right? Because if you get put into a leadership position, that's essentially God saying, like, you're the most righteous. And I just didn't vibe with that. And so, for me, there was, like, this massive discord growing up, because on the one hand, I wanted to make my parents super happy, you know? It's like, I was such a mama's boy. Church was the most important thing to her. And so, I just, like, I fucking knocked that shit out of the park, you know? I was, like, in the scriptures, you know? Like, I was, like, teaching my friends about the church. I was having discussions with my parents, because there was always, you know, from a young age as well, like, I vibed with Jesus. Like, I was, like, yeah, I get what this dude is talking about, you know? But then there were other things in the Bible where I was just, like, how do these fit together, you know? Is it the same book? Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so, you know, once I got to high school, I mean, you know, I'm very, very real with my experience. And so, you know, for all the listeners, warning, here's some sexual content. They used it, bro. All good. Yeah, okay, cool. You know, I was very, like, detached. And I would, what's the word? I would, like, fantasize, or I would, like, daydream, or do these things where it's, like, I would kind of, like, be in that magical space in my own reality to not feel, like, the discord or the suffering that I was in. Because I just never felt good enough, right? Like, I was constantly holding myself next to this bar that was Jesus. And it was, like, no matter how good I tried to be, it's just, like, I wasn't Jesus, you know? And so, I always felt like I was failing. And so, when I was 10 years old, you know, I got exposed to, like, pornography. And that was just, like, it for me. Like, that was my drug of choice. That was my way to disassociate. That was my way to pull away. And it was, like, the most addictive coping mechanism for me. Like, you know, and a lot of spiritual people, right? It's funny, because my girl, her background is in, like, Mayan cosmology. And we were just at this, like, training with a bunch of, like, teachers and different people. And all of them have Khan energy in their chart. And Khan is sexual energy. And it's, like, you know, very spiritual. Like, sexual energy is healing energy. So, most of us that are highly spiritual are also highly, highly in that energy. And so, that was my coping mechanism of choice. But it also led to, like, a deep, profound self-hatred. Because I was just, like, I'm the worst human being on the planet, right? And as I kept growing in the church, I would keep being put in leadership positions, you know, in, like, the high school. Because I lived in Utah. Everybody's Mormon. So, part of the school, there's seminary, right? And, you know, one person gets chosen to be the seminary president for the whole school. And, you know, I was, like, chosen. I was always placed into these positions. And then I'm just, like, oh, these people don't know who I actually am. You know, it's, like, I'm the worst human being on the planet. In the Mormon church as well, they have something that's called patriarchal blessings. And it's basically when you get a blessing from a patriarch, they place their hands on your head. And it's, like, words straight from God. And in my patriarchal blessing, what was said was, you know, that I was here for influence and affluence. So, everything I do in life, I need to make sure that I am, like, at the forefront in a leadership position and making a lot of money so that I can help people with that money. That locked me up. Because when I went to college, right, there was, like, no focus on what do I actually want to do. It was just, like, how am I going to make the most money? Otherwise, God is going to be pissed at me, right? And so, after high school, I went on my mission for two years, was sent to Ukraine. I learned Russian. That was a cool experience. It was very eye-opening for me because I met a lot of people outside of the Utah bubble I was in. I met Muslims. I met Hindus. And all of them, I was, like, damn, these are really good people. And they feel tapped in, you know. And I started kind of questioning a little bit of the conditioning that I had because I was, like, wait a second, okay, if this is God's one true church, I'm, like, there's, like, 15 million members and there's 7 billion people on this planet. Like, I'm, like, don't get me wrong. I think God is this perfect source. But why is this his plan, you know? While you're on mission, the one thing they tell you is, like, you got to go get married. That is the most important thing in the church is, like, when you get married to your spouse, you are married for time and eternity. And to access, like, the highest kingdom in Mormon heaven, you have to be married and sealed to a partner. And so, every day for those two years, you don't consume any media. All you can do is read scriptures and proselytize. So, it's, like, I don't know any movies. I'm not listening to any music. And we're also getting daily communication from, you know, our mission presidents telling us, like, hey, when you get home, you got to get married. The reason why I'm laughing is because, you know, it's, like, on my mission for those two years, it was the only time where it's, like, because I couldn't access any media or anything like that, I wasn't looking at porn. And I wasn't, like, you know, masturbating or anything as this kind of, like, compulsion. There was twice where on my mission, you know, this tells you, like, how pulled away I was. This is probably too much information. This is really embarrassing. [Speaker 2] There's no more team. There's no team on this podcast. Dude, this is HeForTheTruth, bro. HeForTheTruth. There's no CMIP. It's no Hulse VOD. Let's go. [Speaker 1] We don't, like, consume any media. And the only people that know this is my ex-wife and my current partner. And, you know, sometimes we would have to travel on buses. And so I was placed into a leadership position, like always, called the assistant to the president. It was, like, the highest position. You know, it's, like, every missionary wants to be the assistant to the president. Dude, that would smoke up your ass, bro. Dude, a thousand percent. A thousand percent. And so you're in this position and you travel around training missionaries, right? They're just like, hey, whoever's the best proselytizers, we put them in these positions so that they can train everybody else so that we can bring more people into the fold. So that meant I had to travel a lot. And I remember feeling so guilty and so evil because I was on a bus and they were playing these, like, Russian music videos. And it's like, we're not supposed to watch it, but, you know, it's like a six-hour bus. And so you're watching it and it had these, like, provocative women on it. And the bus was shaking. And I was like, oh, no, oh, no, oh, no. And so I had to, like, call my mission president and, like, confess to him, you know, and he was just like, hey, you've really got to be on guard for your thoughts, you know. And now I look at that and I'm like, dude, there was no stimulation for, like, 18 months. But I, you know, I hated myself for that. And so I came back from my mission and I was a go-getter. Like I said, you know, it's like, you give me a peak to reach, I'm going to do it. Within three days, I went up to college. The first day of college, I had never dated a girl in high school. I had only kissed one girl in eighth grade because I was very focused on, like, sports and basketball. Day three of going to school, I met a girl and I'm like, this is who I'm marrying. We were engaged within three months. [Speaker 3] Did you go to, like, BYU? Like, where'd you go to school? [Speaker 1] Dude, I went to Utah State. It was, you know, because I was, like, too cool for BYU. I'm like, I don't want to go with all of those guys. Because again, I always had this kind of, like, I am Mormon, but I'm also like, you guys don't get it. You guys are, like, so programmed. You know, I'm a cool one. And so my ex-wife and I, she, we got married our freshman year of college before the year was even over. She wasn't even a year removed from her high school prom, and we're starting our life together. And, you know, it's amazing. We have this beautiful relationship. And within, like, five months, I start looking at porn again, right? Because it's just that, like, slippery slope. Then I start using it as a coping mechanism, again, trying to, like, pull away from this discomfort. And it just brings in this self-hatred. And so that becomes one of the biggest wedges between me and my ex-wife, because for her, she is told from birth to find a worthy man. And it's, like, no worthy man would even think to do this. It starts this, like, 10-year cycle of me going to therapy, self-help groups, you know, 12-step programs. But the thing is, within the church, to get help, you can only go to church-approved resources. And the one thing they would always communicate to me is, it's just, like, Jesus will save you. If you have enough faith, Jesus will save you, which told me, clearly, I don't have enough faith. Like, clearly, all this, you know, like, trust and belief in the scriptures and praying, you know, like, it doesn't mean anything. I do need to mention, when I was 16, you know, I, like, was going through these cycles, right, where it's like, I'm never going to do it again. And then I do it, and I'm like, you suck. And then it's like, okay, I'm never going to do it again. And then you do it again. And there was one night where it's like, I wanted to kill myself, where I was just like, I am the most evil human being, like, I can't do this. And I was crying in bed, and it was like 3 or 4 a.m. And I was just like, I'm going to kill myself. But I'm like, let me just pray and just see if there's anything there. And so I prayed. And I was just like, God, if you are there, like, I need to know. And like, my entire body just became consumed with fire. You know, like, I was like, burning. And it wasn't like for two minutes, it was like an hour, where it was just radiating through me, just this love. And so I was like, okay, there's clearly something there. But I just translated, I was like, wow, the Mormon Church is true. You know, I'm like, I have the spiritual experience. And it's like, okay, here's the context that I translated in. So basically, you know, all these things are very important, because it ties into kind of like my story, my marriage, you know, both her and I, we are like best friends, but there is a strong, strong discord. You know, when we are together, whether it's intimately, whether it's just hanging out, like we feel this void. But also it's like, we're sealed for time and all eternity. So it's like, well, there's nothing we can do, you know? And so it's like, we would do like therapy together, we would work on it. What we did to really numb, and you know, everything is like, according to plan, like, this was not a mistake or a coping mechanism, but we had four children. And you know, it's like, I love my kids, because that was our focus was it was like, okay, if we just pour our attention into our children, then we don't have to focus on this discord that we feel, you know, or this, yeah, lack of coherence. [Speaker 3] What's the timeline of this? Because I obviously don't know how old you are now. And you're talking about 60. [Speaker 1] So I'm 33. I'm 33. So basically, I got married at 20. She was 19. And we were married for 11 years. For five years, we didn't have children. And then we had a child like every 18 months, we were just like, boom, boom, boom, boom. [Speaker 3] True Mormon style. [Speaker 1] Yeah, exactly. You know, it's like I grew up with all my siblings close to my age. So did she. And so we're like, we got to do the same thing for our kids. And honestly, we're so happy we did. Because they're all like such good friends. I end up having a ton of success because in college, like I said, my focus was how do I make as much money as possible, I went into finance and economics, went into kind of like investment banking didn't enjoy that just started investing for myself. And in 2014, I got super into like crypto really early on, I saw people were investing in these digital assets. I saw you know, the power behind decentralization. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. Because not only are there opportunities, but you can bypass being an accredited investor, right? Because to invest in startups anywhere else, you have to be an accredited investor in the US. But within crypto, it's like anybody can invest. So I started investing in crypto. And I built up a following on Twitter under an anonymous name teaching people how to invest, and made a ton of money. It was super cool. And for me, right, there was always this kind of like internally, how do I prove my love to Jesus? And how do I serve the children of God? Because, you know, in the church, they believe everybody is a child of God. So I was like, I'm going to build this tech company, because there's so much bullshit on social media. There's so much bullshit, especially within the financial space. You know, it's not the good investments that go viral. It's not the educational content. It is the spammy, gimmicky, like FOMO driven content that goes viral, which really hurts people who don't have an education in how to value investments, what to look for, right? How to invest in a wise way. So I started building this tech company, where basically it was built for only financial communities. We looked at 150 data points for every content creator. And then we created this trust score, this authenticity score, this, you know, hit rate, all these different things. So people could see at a glance, like at the back of a baseball card, who are the best traders? Who are the best investors? Who should we actually be listening to, right? Because I saw, I saw so closely with my friends who are also creating content, that oftentimes it was the people who knew nothing that would go super viral and get like 100,000 followers, right? And it's like, you should not be listening to this guy. So we raised millions of dollars. Everything was killing it. Until it wasn't. It all collapses. I put, you know, my money into it. There's, there's a lot of things out of my control. It wasn't just the collapse, because we had a ton of traction, like things where it felt like I was being punished by God, where I was like, why is this happening? You know, how did this come out of nowhere? It's like, this wasn't even my fault. And now my company is failing. And that's how I translated it. That's how I was like, this is because I never overcame porn. And I'm just like, Oh my God, I have failed God. You know, like I wanted to build this app to make it so that like, anybody with a cell phone could have a better education than like a Harvard finance graduate, right? Like, that's what we would pitch this as. And I was like, it's because I never overcame the porn. It's because I didn't overcome the masturbation. It's because I'm a bad husband. And so that took me into the deepest low, like I put all of my money into this thing, lost it all, went from being a millionaire, right to like bankruptcy. And you know, I was 28 or 29 at the time. And it was just every day I was like, I'm going to kill myself. Like, I'm like, I have failed. Like, I failed my children. I failed my wife. Like, I don't even know how to start over. Like everything is gone. Well, for five years I had been researching and hearing about like ayahuasca and psilocybin and how they help people with depression. And I would like fill this poll, but I wouldn't do it because I'm like, that's Satan. I'm like, that's how the devil gets you. That's the devil's herb, you know, which is so funny. Now you like, look at it. It's like, literally comes from the earth. Like, how could it be, you know, the devil? And you know, there was like one day where like, it truly was hell. Going to bed was the greatest part of my day. And waking up was the worst because it's like, fuck, I'm still here. You know, like, it's just like, oh my God. My wife came to me and she was just like, I'm really afraid for you. You know, she is like, like, this is really scary. And I was like, well, I think I want to do this ayahuasca thing, but I'm afraid. And she was like, no, go do it. She's like, you need to do something. And everything just worked out where I found a group. It was close by. It was happening that weekend, you know? And I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to go do it. I drove. People are like dressed in white. You know, they had like an altar set up. And I'm like, this is so weird. I'm like, it's so different than what I was used to. But I'm like, okay, I'm just going to trust. I'm going to surrender. [Speaker 3] How long ago was this? [Speaker 1] This was two years ago, or three years. So I must have been 30 at the time, because it's really only been two and a half, three years that I've kind of like been on this journey. The person who was serving, the shaman, they came to me, they're like, everybody, we recommend you take two cups. You know, I took my two cups. And the shaman just kept coming back where it's like, hey, the medicine says you need more. So I ended up taking five. Most people's experience, they started at like nine o'clock and ended by like one or two in the morning. And I went from 9pm till like noon the next day, just fully being in this experience. And, you know, like, for me, I just remember praying, I was just like, all right, Jesus, if this is evil, like, you got to protect me. Like, please don't let Satan get me. You know, I'm so terrified. And then basically, the medicine came in. And it was just like, I remember I was like, sitting down, like looking down, and I could feel this presence. And it was like, look up. And I'm like, no, I can't. Like, I knew what was coming. And I'm like, I can't do it. I can't do it. It's too much. It's too much. And it's funny, because like, the shaman was like, you were repeating for like, an hour where it's like, I can't do this. It's too much. It's too much. Eventually, I got the courage, I look up. And it's like, the veil was just pulled from my eyes, where it's like, you know, I grew up with this idea where it's like, God is a man with a body. And Jesus, just like Jesus, right, was resurrected with his body. And it's like, that was my conceptualization of God. And it was like, infinite forms came in. You know, where it's like, you don't even know where to begin to identify what I am, you know, and it was just blowing my mind where it was just like, every preconceived notion that I had was just obliterated. And then it was this full circle where it was like, and guess what, guess what you are. And it was like, oh, you know, just like amazing where it's like, oh, I'm not that. But I am, you know, it's like, that is expressing through me. So it was this crazy, beautiful experience where all at once, my greatest, deepest, darkest fears were being realized where it's like, shit, the church isn't true. And then it's like, well, if that's not true, what is? There was like a huge piece of my journey, where I was like, looking at a mirror, and just realized how much I aided myself, where it was just like, you know, from such a young age, like all the judgments, all of the pieces of me that I didn't like, like, I just saw in the mirror. And it was just like, I hate you. Like, I hate you so much. And then there was just such a profound sorrow, because it was just like, oh, my God, why do I hate him so much? You know, it's like, he's this beautiful creation that has like taken on form. And all I'm doing is judging and hating. And the vast majority of the experience was actually just kind of like this internal remembrance, you know, like a lot of people see the content that I speak about. And they're just like, they're like, dude. So you know, they're just like, what's your favorite, you know, like Dharmic text, or like all the and it's like, I actually haven't read most of them. You know, it was just this deep, profound understanding. And like, when I talk about them, it's because there's kind of this inner knowing, and then I can see these things in different texts. And it's like, oh, here's what they're speaking to, you know, here's how they're using this analogy to explain this concept. So I left, I left that experience, completely just like obliterated. I had no foundation of like, what I knew was true. I had all these things that I thought I knew internally, but I'm just like, I could be insane. I'm like, this could be psychosis. You know, like, I'm just like, did I just break my brain? But also, I can't go back to the church. So I started looking at church history, you know, because the church does like a good job of like suppressing their history. I started looking at that. And I was like, Oh, this is why they suppress it. I'm like, damn. I'm like, there's some really bad skeletons in the closet. [Speaker 3] Did you ever read Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakow? [Speaker 1] Yeah, I read that a long time ago. And I was like, whoa. It's crazy. It is so, you know, like you got to hand it to the church where I'm like, they've done a good job of really kind of like rebranding themselves because the historical basis for the church, like what these men were doing, what some of the rituals were, you know, like, I remember like learning about blood atonement, where some people where they're just like, you've done sins that are so bad. They're like, the best thing we can do is slit your throat and let your blood be your atonement. And it's just like, what? What? You know, it was crazy. And so... At least you escaped that. You didn't get your throat slit. I know. Thank heavens. They're still chasing me. Technically, I think I'm still a part of the church because I haven't gone through the official like exile. I'm just like, whatever. I'm like, I don't want to meet with you guys ever again. You might get whacked, bro. [Speaker 3] Yeah, for real. [Speaker 1] But so I returned from this experience, you know, with this like new knowledge of light and recognition of like who I am. Like one of the biggest pieces from the ayahuasca was like, hey, you're not here to be a finance bro. Like you are here to be a teacher. Like there is a shift that is going on. This is your wake up. Like everything happened according to plan. Nothing's been out of place. And now it's time for you to step more fully into who you are, right? And of course, like at the time, you think you're just like, I did it. You're like, I now see. The next two years was literally going through like the depths of hell to have like all of the shadow surfaced, all of the conditioning, all of the programming, right? Going through that kind of like refining fire to really not just have like a knowledge, but like an embodied knowledge of these things. And so I left ayahuasca and I was like, dude, I wish I could just go into a cave and meditate for 30 years. It's like I just want to tap into the secrets of the universe. You know, it's like I want to go back. And it's funny because I always tell people in my intuitive sessions and different things, it's just like your path is so perfect for you. Like, you know, people will look at it and they're just like, I want to be on the path. And it's like, it is impossible for you to leave your path. It's like everything is your path. Every right, every left, like even the stumbling blocks, it's like all of them are serving you perfectly timed. I was still trying to save my business because I have friends and family that invested, right? So I would work on the business from 6 a.m. to noon. And then from noon to like 10 o'clock or midnight, I would doordash because I'm like, I got to make money. I got to pay my bills for the kids. And it was painful because, you know, it's like a year ago I would sit down on a Friday and make a trade and make tens of thousands of dollars. And now I'm doing doordash praying that I make $15, you know, and I was so embarrassed. And it's just like, oh, my gosh. And that experience went on for a year. But it taught me to like detach from that suffering, right? It taught me to just be like, dude, what am I? Why do I care? You know, like most of the time I wouldn't listen to music. And I now look back on it and it's like, dude, I was meditating in a cave like that driving and just allowing myself to be in stillness. Like it was literally the thing that I wanted from the universe, you know, where it's like, I just want time to sit and meditate. And then I'm like, fuck, why do I have to drive and do doordash? And it's like, dude, it was what you wanted. Like I was given that time, right? And in that time, like I was really beginning to learn to like witness myself, witness the way that I think, witness the way that my programming, you know, creates suffering or creates joy or happiness. I become really, really intuitive. Like it was really cool where I could like feel internally, you know, it's like, oh, this is a good movie. This is a bad move. But one of the biggest lessons I also went through in that time was I just had this desire for a guru. I just wanted a teacher, you know, like in the church. The nice thing is it's like, it is such a nice like ignorance when you think you know everything and you just have a leader to tell you what to do. And then you're like, cool, let me do it. And it was very uncomfortable for me, you know, like I would pray and I would meditate and I'm like, send me a guru, send me a teacher, you know, I'd read autobiography of a yogi. And they're like, you know, the guru appears when you're ready. And I'm like, dude, where's my guru? Like, you know, I'm like, do I need to look into Kriya Yoga? Do I need to do this? Because I just wanted someone to tell me like, here's what you do next. Here's what the path is. And it never came. Every single person, I would find people on social media that I would put on pedestals. And I was like, they get it. And I would start working with them. And then all of a sudden, I would see that their actions don't fit what their actual words were, right. And it was through those experiences where I'm like, fuck, if you place someone on a pedestal, you're only suppressing your own expression, right? If you create a hierarchy, it's you that's holding yourself down. Because what you recognize in someone else is just a reflection of something you contain within yourself that maybe you're not ready to see it yet. You're not willing to see it. And so I was going through all of these lessons. There were many experiences where, you know, I felt pulled to go to different parts of the world. And, you know, now I know about astrocartography. And it's like every single one of those were like really powerful, energetic ley lines for me. But one of the most powerful ones was we were living with my wife's parents, because we had no money. And there was pressure, right? Because me and my wife, we've like emotionally and spiritually left the church. But we have to go to church every day, because it would cause massive issues with her parents if they're like, you're not going to church. You're not taking your kids to church. But every day that we would go, we were just like, we got to get our kids out of here. Like, it's like, this is not, you know, everything that people would speak. It's so fear based. Do this or else God's going to punish you. And I'm like, I cannot subject my kids to this programming. And so my wife and I, we were like, we felt called to go to Portugal. We're like, for some reason, we just feel like we need to go to Portugal. And so I read the book Surrender Experiment. And I was just like, cool, we have like not a lot of money in the bank. But I also know we'll always have what we need. Let's go to Portugal. We get out of her parents' house. We fly our four kids over to Portugal. We're having this experience in Lisbon. And while we're there, right, it's like the best our marriage has ever been. Our communication is the best. I'm not lying and hiding about the pornography anymore. I'm being more open and authentic and just saying like, hey, I'm struggling. Like, here's what's going on. But that transparency is rebuilding trust. Because what really broke our marriage was a lack of trust. Because for 10 years, right, my wife would come to me and she's like, I feel like you're still looking at it. And I'm like, no, I'm not. It's all good. And then internally, I'm like, dude, you got to beat this. But I'm like, but if you tell her, it's going to crush her and it's going to cause this issue. And it's like, you know, it's this whole internal thing. So I started learning to become more honest and just be like, hey, here's where I'm at. Here's what it is. We're in Portugal and it's the best our marriage has ever been. And we start talking and we're just like, do you feel like we're not meant to be together? And, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, for her, there's so much fear because she's like, I've given you four children. We just declared bankruptcy because of your business. You know, like all of these things. And she's just like, I don't think we're meant to be together, but also I can't like be on my own. Right. And we're having these conversations where it's just like, well, what would a divorce look like? Like, how would we, you know, do that? But for me, it was one of those things where I'm like, I can't walk this path, you know, because I was just like, OK, do I want to choose to get divorced? And I'm like, dude, I want to be single. I'm like, I don't want to date again. And I'm like, let's just keep working on our marriage. Well, at that same time, what you need to know is, like I said, since a child, I have like daydreamed and like felt into this energy of kind of like, what is my partner going to be like when I'm older? Like, who am I going to live life with? Like, where's that unconditional love like my girl? While we're in Portugal, I see well, this is before Portugal, I see someone who posts a video about a book and I'm just like, what is the book that you're reading from? Like, it just resonated on such a deep level. I buy that book. It's called Remember Your Roots. And in reading that book, I'm like, holy shit, I know this person. Around the same time, I was kind of like going down this path of, you know, because I was exploring everything. I was learning about like past life regression, you know, soul families. And, you know, they talk about in some of these books, you know, like Dolores Cannon and all these different things. They talk about how you have soul family and you'll have these little events that ping your soul and you need to follow it. I read that and the next day I saw this video and so I like there was a ping and I was like, okay, I need to follow this. I meet the author. She's my partner now. And I have a conversation with her. And both her and I were just like, dude, this is crazy. We're like, we're brother and sister. We're like, whoa, this is wild, you know, because she was in a relationship, I was in a relationship. We're like, we're brother and sister. Like there was nothing romantic, but we also recognized that there was like this crazy connection where we're like, what are we supposed to do together? Maybe we're supposed to put together a course. Maybe we're supposed to provide this community because I just saw the depth of the knowledge that she wrote about in her book too. I was like, this girl gets it. I'm like, oh my God, because one of the hardest things for me during my kind of like spiritual path and awakening and all these different things, like there was such a massive, like earnestness that it was just lesson after lesson after lesson, you know, like rapid expansion, contraction, rapid expansion. And I really, really struggle with the spirituality space because I was just like, I'm like, there's so much performance here. I'm like, there's so much hypocrisy. And I hated it when people would like associate me with like new age or something like that, you know, because I was just like, I'm like, no, there's good things there. There's truth there. And it's like, but there's also a lot of performance. Right. And so I read her book and I'm like, this girl gets it. Like, she is not in the performance. She is not pretending. And so I'm like, Hey, let's teach together. And so I tell my wife about her, you know, and I'm like, here, there's this Christine girl. We're going to be doing some work together. You know, my wife has like access to my phone, you know? Cause I was just like, I understand this is weird that I'm working with this girl, but also like, I feel like I'm supposed to do something. And she was like, okay. You know, like whatever, while we're in Portugal, she comes to me, my ex-wife. And she is just like, Hey, is there anything between you and Christine? And I was just like, no, I'm like, that's my sister. I'm like, she's like dating these dudes, you know? And she was like, well, I had a dream last night about like you and Christine. And I was just like, no, I think this is like, maybe your fear or like projecting. And it's like, it's all good. We're talking about divorce, you know, going through like our whole thing. I begin to have like some really crazy experiences. Cause I'm like, nope, I'm not doing it. I'm like, I'm not getting divorced. Like it is the worst thing you can do in the Mormon church. I'm like, this is going to validate my parents' fears. We're going to be like, see, you left the church and Satan got you. Satan broke your marriage. This is what happens when you're not grounded in Jesus. And I'm like, I can't, I can't let them have that, you know? And I'm like, no, I'm going to stick in my marriage, you know? But as we keep just living in Lisbon, you know, and then we go to Porto, there's just this discord, you know? And, you know, we meet some friends where it's like the spontaneous activity. They're very much like aligned with the way that I am. And we sit down and we talk and it's this like expansive thing for me and for my wife, you know, it's this complete like repulsion and we go home and we talk about it. And she's just like, I just, I don't like you. She's like, I don't resonate with you on a personal level. She's like, I kind of think you're weird now, you know? Like, she's just like, I think you're really weird. This is not the person I married. And, you know, as we were talking, we were like, well, one of us has to change for us to like be comfortable and do this. And it's like, and that's never the answer. Cause I'm like, I want you to be you. But also this is the most alive I've ever felt. I'm like, I can't go back to like what I was. And so we're talking and every night I can't sleep because I'm just like, there's no way that my path requires breaking my family. Like it just intellectually and logically made no sense. I was like, how can divorce be an answer? Like this impacts my children. I have four kids. What is that going to look like? And as I would sit and like meditate, it was just like, you already know what the answer is. And I'm like, no, I don't. I'm like, Nope. I don't know the answer. I have this person who reaches out to me on social media. That's like an astrologer. And she was just like, Hey, I never do this. And she's like, and I know you have this big platform, but I really feel strongly. I need to look at your chart. I will just do it for free. And I was just like, okay, cool. She looks at my chart and she was just like, Hey, you are going through a massive expansion right now. And she's like, just trust it. Okay. And she's like, like you're going through, she's like, I don't want to, I don't want to say anything after I decided to get divorced. She reached back out and she's like, yeah, she's like, I can see in your relationship. [Speaker 2] I mean, this would have been like your sudden return. I'm guessing you were like 30 or something at this point. [Speaker 1] It's a thousand percent. Yes. So, and, and there were some things with like relationships, like she looked at my chart with like my ex-wife's chart and, you know, and she saw like literally, I can't remember what it was, but it was something with like my wife's Chiron being directly tied to like my expression, my sun sign and my North node. And so it was like me being me was hurting her, you know? And so the astrologer was like, yeah, there was, she's like, this gave all the signs of like a karmic relationship, but she didn't tell me that. Right. She was just like, Hey, just trust and just know it's all going to be okay. Because whatever is meant for you, she was like, it's meant for you. Like, you know, you can't miss it. I have another person that reaches out that, you know, I posted a video about Sikhism because I love Guru Nanak. I think Guru Nanak is like one of the coolest teachers and more people need to know about him. Like the dude is just unbelievable. You know, it's like he, he hated ritual. Like he would go down, you know, and there'd be like Hindus throwing water over their shoulders in the river and Guru Nanak would start throwing it over the older shoulder in a different direction. And people are like, what are you doing? And he's like, Oh, I'm trying to reach my fields two miles away. And they're all like, you're an idiot. That water is not going to reach the field. And he's like, Oh, if it's not going to reach the field, he's like, you think it's going to reach heaven? You know, just kind of being like, what's the point of this ritual? You know, or he went to a Muslim mosque and everyone's praying, you know, facing a certain direction and he's the other direction and they go to kill him, you know, and they're just like, what are you doing? This is so disrespectful. And he's just like, Oh, point me in the direction where God doesn't, you know, where God doesn't exist. And they're all like, Oh, you know, so he's like a really cool teacher that like stood up against some of these things. So I made a video about it. Yeah, totally. And the Sikh reaches out to me and she's just like, Hey, I really want to like, sit down and do a reading with you. And so I'm like, Oh my God, why are these people reaching out? And I'm like, but it's free. And I love a deal, you know? So I'm like, whatever, I'll have an experience. So I sit down with her and she like guides me through this meditation to see my heart. And it's just pitch black. She's like, you can't visualize anything in your heart. And I'm like, no. And she's like, your entire content base is around like love and helping people accept love and express love. And she was like, and you can't witness your heart. Like, isn't that weird to you? And I was just like, yeah. And she was like, okay, I feel strongly that we need to do a card pull. And for me, you know, I was like, I'm like, I don't believe in pulling cards. I was like, I think it's woo woo. I think it's fake, you know? And she was like, well, just humor me. So she's shuffling through this deck, you know, doing everything. I close my eyes. She tells me when to stop. I tell her to stop. And she pulls the card and the card is like divine union. And it was like, trust the collapse of what is happening because it's preparing space for what has always been meant for you. And the moment that she said that, like, you know, in my head, it was like, Christine, you know? And I'm like, nope. This is just me being a dude trying to leave my marriage because I'm uncomfortable, right? So I reject it. I do this whole journaling experiment because I have gotten really good at just entering a space of nonjudgment, right? Like the porn had taught me that where I'm like, I just want to witness myself as I am. I'm like, there's no judgment. What could this be, right? I'm like, is this me being attracted to Christine? Is this me wanting to leave a situation and bypass doing the work? Is this me not wanting to leave a situation because it's hard, but it's the truth, right? And I just go through every single thing that I can. And basically it leads to this moment because I'm just so collapsed in fear where I'm like, I cannot get divorced. I'm like, I can't do it. Like that was like every time I would pray, every time I would meditate, it's like, please, I can't do this. Like I was crying and Christine recommends this movie where she's like, you know, cause I'm like, are there any like spiritual movies that you recommend? And she was like, you should watch Cloud Atlas, you know, where it's kind of like about like past lives, but how they're happening concurrently and, you know, karma in one life impacts another life that's happening. And while I was watching that movie, you know, there's like a romantic component of like, you know, energies that keep coming together, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. As I would watch that movie, you know, and she, she hadn't even watched it. She was just like, Oh, I remember watching this one like five years ago. It was good. Like you should check it out. She watched it. And both of us, you know, she was in Bali. I'm in Portugal. Like we watch it the same night without knowing. And both of us are just like, Whoa, this feels like it's kind of what we're experiencing. But again, for her, she was just like, no, this dude's married and he has kids. And so she's like, I have no romantic feelings. Like she, it's funny, because she talks now like she, she would do things to like, give herself the it, you know, where she would like, watch a video and be like, Oh, gross, you know, or I don't like this or whatever. And I watched the movie. And I'm like, I think this is Christine. And I have this experience where she like, sends a message, you know, her morning, but it was like, 1212 at night, I get this message from Christine, it's like, we should talk. And I look up at the clock, and it's 1212. And I literally have an out of body experience, where it was just this, like knowing where it's like, dude, quit suppressing the truth. It's like, you know what this is. And I was like, you know, because I'm like, Ah, I can't do this. So I tell Christine, I'm like, Hey, we can't talk. I'm like, I can't talk right now. I'm doing some stuff, you know, like, we'll reconnect. Because for me, it was like, I'm not getting divorced. Because it's because of this, you know, it's like, I need to know whether it's actually a divorce. So I sit down with my wife. We have that heart to heart, both of us, right? We're sitting there. She's like, Taylor, you already know the answer. You're just not willing to tell me, you know, because she's like, I'm not the one that's gonna make the decision. I go, I take a shower, create that stillness. And there's just a knowing inside where it's like, we don't resonate. We and it's like, it's sad to say, it's hard to say. And it's like, but we just don't resonate. So I come out of the shower. And she was like, we're getting divorced, aren't we? And I was like, yeah, I think so. You know, the next few days, she's processing. And she's just like, yeah, she's like, you know, I really look at it. And it's like, I love you as a friend. She's like, I really just don't like you. And she's like, I think you're weird. Like, she's like, this feels right. Like, okay, here's what we're doing. That night, I'm having like panic attacks, because I'm just like, like, can this really be the answer? You know, divorce? Plus, I'm like, I don't even know if Christine feels anything about me, right? Because it's like, we've never talked romantically. Like everything we've ever talked about is like, what's a course we can put out there? What can we teach people? Christine messaged me that night while watching Cloud Atlas again, because I'm just like, I'm like, did I create this experience for myself? Is this just me, right? Because the mind is so powerful. We can create our own realities. I'm watching Cloud Atlas again, because I'm like, maybe that 1212 experience was just me. She messages me again, at 1111. And I have the same exact experience. I exit my body. And there's this intense and the feeling that I had in both those experiences was the feeling that I had as a child, where there's like such a deep and profound, like love and connection and this feminine presence where, like in those experiences, I was like, that was her. When I would like imagine and when I would think about it as a kid, I was feeling her, you know? So I'm just like, okay, we can talk what's up. And she was like, I think there's things that we need to say to each other. And she's like, but you need to say it. And I'm just like, I'm like, oh, crap, is she gonna be like, I think you have feelings for me. And that's not okay. And so I was just like, whatever, you can't miss what's meant for you. And I tell her, you know, and I'm just like, hey, like, I think you are my person, you know, and I'm like, and I know that sounds crazy. And I'm like, but there's such a deep level connection. And she was just like, my uncle just passed away two days ago. And he came to me in a dream and said, Taylor is your person, like you two need to like come together, like you're meant to walk the path together, you know? And she was just like, I didn't know how to tell you. Because I'm like, the dude's married, he has kids, you know, like, what is this? So we the moment that her and I admit that connection, it is more powerful than any psychedelic experience I've ever had. Like, we both experienced this massive, like heart expansion, like we were feeling into each other. Like, I would lay down every night and just feel this like, like my nervous system was just crazy, you know? But it's the worst situation that I could have ever planned for myself. Because I'm like, not only am I going to go tell my parents and my family and my loved ones that I'm getting divorced. But they're all gonna think that I cheated. Because I have this person now that it's like, hey, we're supposed to pursue this, you know? I was pissed. Like, I was so angry. Because I was like sitting there, you know, like I would meditate in like so much rage and anger. And I would be like, okay, what is this rage and anger? And I'm like, why couldn't this be three months down the road? Why couldn't it be six months down the road? If we are meant to be together, wouldn't it be a year down the road, right? Because we go back to the States. We tell our family, we're getting divorced. Everybody starts freaking out. But not only that, I feel so strongly internally that I need to go to Bali to visit Christine. Because we're like, we don't even know if this is real. And it's like, we need to come together like, in human form, to just see if this is real, or if we're just creating this, right? [Speaker 3] So you hadn't met in person until you went online? [Speaker 1] We'd never met in person. [Speaker 3] It was all online. [Speaker 1] Just purely like, we did some Zoom calls, because we were working to bring together this group for one of her like, revivals, bring speakers together. But that was it. Like, every communication we ever had was around like, spirituality. And like, you know, expanding past subconscious blocks. Like, there was nothing to our... And I mean, like, we were homies, you know, like, we would always call each other homie. It's just like, what's up, you know, what's up, my sister? You know, like, really trying to clearly put that boundary where it's like, hey, I don't want her to feel uncomfortable, and she would do the same with me. But we had never met in person whatsoever. And honestly, for me, too, like, I knew how energies and cycles repeat. And so for me, in the back of my mind is I'm like, am I just doing what I did when I got home from my mission, where it's like finding my girl, day three, you know, where it's just like, it's not this one. It's this one, you know, because it's like, I can see that pattern. So I'm like, completely in this storm of like, not knowing whether I'm trusting and surrendering to the signal within me, or whether I'm just creating this reality, because I don't want to feel like a bad person, right? Because like, for me, it's easier to like, break the marriage when it's like, oh, we're not meant to be together, because here's my person, right? And so I'm like, am I just bypassing? So I come home to the States. When was this? This, this was about a year and a half ago. No, no, this is like a year and two months ago. That's wild, bro. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's it is crazy. It's kind of new. I mean, 1000% 1000% and like this past year. So I buy my ticket to go to Bali. And obviously, you know, like, there were like a few things that like happened, like, you know, it really shows you how like, internally, you kind of already know, like my ex wife's greatest fear after we had our four kids, because we felt she we felt so strongly to have our fourth. And it's funny, because I just got done with like a read with another person where she was married to someone, they felt so strongly, they need to have their third child. And as soon as they had that third child, they're like, we need to get divorced. Like, it was like that child came, they were supposed to have that child. And then it was, it was the same with my son, like he was four months old, when we decided to get divorced, right? Which was another reason why I was like, I can't get divorced. I'm like, I'm like, this is way different for me as a man versus her as a woman, having four children, you know. And so I'm in this storm, going like, it's just like, dude, is this you creating it? Because it's like, you can cause so much damage. Like you can really hurt people. If you're being selfish. I sit down with a friend because I buy my ticket to go to Bali because I'm like, I need to figure it out. Oh, what I was gonna say is my ex wife, you know, she would always tell me after we had our fourth, she's like, I want you to get a vasectomy. Because she was just like, I just know if we don't work out, the one thing I would hate is if you had a child with someone else. And it's like, you know, Christine and I have both had experiences knowing that we're going to have a little girl. And I'm just like, I'm like, wow, she had that fear inside of her because it was also an intuitive kind of like, knowing of what was coming. I sit down with a friend, and we talked for four hours, going through every philosophical argument, every side of this. Is this me following truth? Is this me exhibiting narcissistic behavior? You know, that where I'm willing to damage and hurt someone else for my own selfish desires, right? Like, and like I said, at that time, I was like, super, super good entering a space of non judgment where I'm like, dude, if I'm a narcissist, I need to see it. You know, if I'm abusive, if I'm going through psychosis, like, I want to witness it, you know, so we talked for four hours, we go through every argument. And at the end of the four hours, it's just like, wow, it could be any of these, you know, it was like, it was like, we came to no conclusion. Then I meet with another friend, and we sit down for two hours. And we just discuss where it's like, all this spirituality stuff could just be bullshit, right? Because the other thing that I'm embarrassed to say that I did was, at that time, when I was going through my decisions, I really needed help and guidance. And so what I was also doing was I was like, looking at like, my Vedic chart, you know, my ex wives, Christine's, and I was putting them together, right? And it's like, Christine and I have like, so many placements, where it's just kind of like, you know, it's like, oh, divine union, twin flames, like all this, right? And then like, me and my ex wife had like, zero of those placements. And so, you know, I like told the friend about it. And it's like, dude, all that can just be bullshit. And you could be like, destroying your family, because you read something on a chart, and you're just like, this is what it is, right? [Speaker 2] And not to mention like, the tendency at times like that, like rationalized decisions based on seeing numbers, astrology, significant books. [Speaker 1] This is, you know, this is this is where the story is going. I know I'm like, such a like, long story. [Speaker 3] You guys are just like, wow, this is the easiest podcast I've had to do. [Speaker 1] Yeah, I know. I know. It's like, I know when you're like, what's your story? And I'm like, let's fucking unpack it, guys. [Speaker 3] Storytelling as well. So like, if you were boring as fuck, then we'd have an issue. But I'm enjoying to see where this goes. [Speaker 1] Well, and the reason why I'm sharing is like, I hope like listeners, because there's there's like lessons in here that I hope they can like identify with and maybe see themselves. But so I you know, I talked to that other person, we're just like, maybe it's all bullshit. I talked to someone else, I can't really remember what it was. But then the fourth one was this lady who was kind of like this spiritual advisor for me that had been really helpful. And I go and I sit with her. And I'm just like, here's what's going on in this situation. And she's immediately like, I'm so proud of you for following your heart. Can I see a picture of her? And so I show her a picture of Christine. And she's immediately like, she's a witch. She's cast a love spell on you. This, this is the darkness attaching to your light. And if you follow this path, you will lose everything. You will lose everything like the the leader that you are the teacher, all of it will be lost, right? And I'm sitting with her cuz I'm like, Hey, I'm like that a year ago would have freaked me out. And I'm like, but I'm like this whole like, you can lose it. Fear based kind of like, don't you dare like you got to do this. I'm like, it doesn't necessarily resonate with what my understanding is of energies anymore, you know, and I'm like, and beyond that, I don't really think that you get tested. I think reality just reflects you back to you so that you can witness yourself. But it's your choice whether to stay in a collapse or to it expand. And so she was like, let's use some tools, you know, and she's doing like one of those things where she's asking questions. And if it goes one way, it's a yes because the other way, it's a no. I answered the questions in my head, it's giving the wrong answers. And she's like, see your energies just mixed up. She's like, let me do it for you. Is she a witch? Yes. And I see her hand move, you know, and she's like, is Taylor under a love spell? Yes, you know, and I'm just like, it's one of those things where I'm like, I cannot believe I ever outsourced my knowledge to like, her, you know, and it wasn't, it was just something where it's like, I left and I was like, damn, dude. So I get in the car, and it goes exactly to what you were saying. I'm just like, what the fuck? Like, what is this? Like, I don't know what to do. And I remember hearing where it was like, Taylor, reality is a mirror and a reflection. Like, what is this experience reflecting to you? And it just clicked while I was driving, where I was just like, oh my god, the first friend is the psychological piece of me that wants to use psychology to bypass decision making. The second friend is like the fear based piece of me where it's like, none of this could be real. And I can be making a decision out of like, something that's not based in truth. The spiritual teacher is a reflection of how I want to use spirituality to bypass, to be like, what is God telling me to do, right? Because if God tells me, then it's not my fault. Anything that happens, you know, like all the consequences, I'm just like, I follow God. Like, you know, it is what it is. And I saw that reflection. And it was this massive expansion where it was just like, are you going to continue to look to things outside of you to tell you what to do? Or are you finally going to stand as the internal signal that can tap into that inner knowing and send those ripples outwards, right? It's kind of like, is the reflection going to tell you who you are? Or are you going to stand in the reflection and be who you are and see that reflection back at you? And so finally, as I did that, and it's like, dude, you have to accept every consequence. What are you doing? And what is the right answer? Like, it came to me so clearly, where it was like, this is your person, you know, like, go to Bali. And now I can look back on that situation. And honestly, like, the reason why she came in so quickly, I see it so perfectly, because it was just like, I was such a people pleaser. And I needed people to know I was a good person. And walking that path, and hearing people like project onto me, create, you know, their narratives or whatever, like, it taught me the lesson where it was like, dude, you being you are going to be a hero or a villain in people's stories. Like we live in polarity, we live in duality, you will be infinite reflections to different people. But it's like, but you can't curate your expression, you just have to be you. And it was the hardest thing, because it's like the amount of people I lost, you know, like the amount of people that projected, but also is the most beautiful thing. Because I detached from my addiction to external validation. You know, I really, really learned in that sphere, how to love unconditionally. And like how love holds space for evolution, you know, and it's we're a year removed. Now, my kids are doing amazing. My ex wife, you know, it's funny, because she, she, she's actually like, gone into the spiritual path now that we left. And she's like, Oh, I see what you were talking about. And she, you know, for her, it was like, well, if I would have joined sooner, would we still be together? And you know, when she would meditate on that, right, the answer would come in. It's like, you weren't meant to be together, which is why, you know, your process started, like our divorce was that kind of catalyst that cracked her open, and really allowed her to embrace herself. She is doing amazing. Like, it is crazy. Because you know, when we got married, her body would like literally create this physical barrier, like semantically, right? As soon as we got divorced, it's like she and she was obsessed with like, exercising, eating healthy, all that fell to the side. And then and she like, returned back to what she was pre marriage, you know, where it was like, there wasn't this like, that buffer between her and I, you know, and so it has been the most crazy, crazy path. And the reason why I like share it is, I think a lot of times people when it comes to spirituality, they think there's like, one path or even like we said at the beginning, where it's like, there's many paths up the mountain, or they think of it as this thing where it's like, there's a destination I'm getting to, or I need to evolve it, there's something I need to become. And what all this has really taught me, is it's just like, basically, we are born into wars that we did not start, we have these subconscious collapses, we have program that programming that we inherited, right, we have this fragmentation. And all that is reflected back to us. And basically, it's just kind of like, are you able to step into awareness to witness those things, transmute them and expand past them. And as you express from wholeness, that wholeness gets reflected back to you, right? And it's like, I didn't find Christina, I wasn't even looking for her. But as I went on my healing journey, and the same goes for her, as we started expressing fully and wholly, we just reality configured and just brought us to each other, right? And that reflection is there. And it's, you know, the relationship, it is amazing, because I've told you guys some of the experiences we've had, since coming together, it's just like, we have had so many things where we're like, we are the same person, like we are the same person. And it's like the deeper levels that we go to going into the shadow, sharing things that we would never share with anyone. And it's just amazing, because it's like, I intuitively knew this was my birthright as a child. And when I got married, you know, I felt so bad saying it, but it was a letdown. Because I was like, this wasn't what I was expecting, you know, or it's just like, ah, it's just like, ah, maybe love isn't what people think it is. And then in this relationship, and I have to be honest, like Christina and I have gone through the depths of hell. Like there was no honeymoon phase. There was no like, like, let's just like we were immediately sent into life in the hardest, most stressful, just craziest situations. But the cool thing is it really taught me as well. You know, I always teach people where it's like, you cannot miss what is meant for you. And if you if you you have everything you need right now, and if you need something, it will come to you in perfect time when you need it. If you don't need it, you don't have it. And if you won't need it, it will never come right. That's what abundance is. It's like you always have what you need. Christine came into my life, because the last year has been the most painful, like going through the depths of hell, excruciating, like surfacing shadow, like the most painful things, right. And just like, feeling no support, feeling so empty, feeling so abandoned, like all of these different wounds. And it's like, oh, but the universe gave me exactly what I needed, because she was there, like, holding that space for me as I went through this massive, like metamorphosis. And so that, in a very, very brief nutshell, guys, is my story. [Speaker 3] Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Yeah, no, it's great, dude. At the end, when you're saying I went through, like the depths of hell, all I kept thinking about is your Mormon relatives thinking it's because you let Satan into your life. A thousand percent, dude. No, thanks for it. It's so interesting. So first of all, obviously, thanks for sharing all that. When you first started talking and talking about your mission, that made me think of the Book of Mormon musical by the South Park Brothers. And I lived in New York City for a long time. I acted for a while. So, you know, and I actually finally saw it, but then I went to look it up real quickly. And there's a fire that broke out at the Book of Mormon Theater on Broadway yesterday. [Speaker 1] Oh my gosh. [Speaker 3] That was interesting timing. But yeah, man, I just appreciate you keeping it real and sharing your story. I mean, it's and it's still like a year ago, or a year and change all this happened. [Speaker 1] Yeah, you know, it's really been. So that was the thing is like, when I did Ayahuasca, there was this massive experience where it was just kind of like, hey, here's who you are. And it was just like, you know, it's like, we are in the midst of a consciousness expansion. And it's like, and there are people like you, who literally incarnated at this time, to play your role. And it's like, be nothing more, nothing less just who you are. And it's like, but all of us are like midwives in this shift. And there was that beautiful, like recognition of like who I am and what I am, right. And then basically, my path took me through this path being like, you ain't shit, like you are nothing, you are lower than the dust of the earth, you know, like, like my scarcity wound, you know, it was crazy, because on my platform, people would ask me to help them. And I would help freely. And they would have all this success, you know, I'd post about it, they'd have the success, having this money, whatever. And it's like, if I would do something for myself, it's like, crickets, like nothing would come in, you know, and I'm like, why is nothing working? But that path of being like, you ain't shit, right? It's because a lot of times I think, you know, people, we have these mystical experiences. And then people come out of it. And they're just like, I'm Jesus, dude, I am the reincarnation of Jesus. Or, you know, like people get so attached to these past lives. And I am happy to say, you know, I never, I was never like, I am Jesus. But there was like a recognition where it was just like, whoa, all of us hold this energy within us. And all of us have that potential. And it's just like, amazing. And so I had this earnestness to like, take the path. And it's like, how do I, how do I become that? How do I embrace that? And now I understand, it's just like, dude, your life just unfolds the way that it's supposed to. It's not something to chase. In fact, if you're chasing a carrot, you're probably, you need to witness what the shadow of the carrot is that you're chasing, because that's the collapse, you know, a subconscious collapse is keeping you in that loop. But it's just, it's just been the most beautiful, amazing thing. [Speaker 2] So what I want to know is like, so how did your parents take all this? How did the church take all this? How did her, your ex-wife's family? [Speaker 3] Bro, we already spoke for like 70 minutes on this story, okay? Can we move on to something else? [Speaker 1] So they all, they all think that I am like, Satan has a hold of me, right? And that was like, that was one of the hardest things for me is because if, you know, I had a really cool meditation, which if anybody wants to do it, it's linked on my page, you should. And it's all about witnessing yourself. And this was like a spontaneous experience that I had, because I realized that like the, you know, there's so much demonization of the ego in the spiritual space, right? Or people, they're like, you need ego deaths. And it's funny, because I feel like a comprehensive and expansive point of view is when you realize that like the human and the spirit are the same. They're, they're manifesting as different, but one is not more spiritual than the other, right? The body that you occupy is like the most sacred temple. The teacher that is most sacred to you is like the persona that you are. You know, it's like, it literally took on form for you to experience, which is why you should love it so fully and unconditionally, because your life is like a love letter from the universe, from God, from source to you. And so I have this meditation where you can witness yourself in every form and just appreciate it and love it and see, you know, where you maybe hate it or judge it. And for me in witnessing, one thing I can see that I have had since a child, like, you know, it's like the reason why I was in these leadership positions is because there's a magnetism. But what that magnetism came from is it's like, dude, I've just always loved people. You know, it's like, I moved every year up until I was, you know, in the seventh grade and every school I would go to, it's like, how do we bring everyone together? You know, like there, I remember there was one school where everybody would make fun of this like handicapped kid and I was like good at sports, you know? And so it's like, you want to prove yourself in sports, then all the kids like you, all the cool kids. And then I would get the cool kids and we started this club, a club that was like, be kind to Trevor club. And this kid became the most popular kid in school, you know, and all the teachers and parents, like they would talk to my parents and they're like, they're like, I've never seen a kid have so much influence where it's like, you know, it's like, they would all fight and stuff. And he just brought them together. Like, that's always been who I was. And again, I hated myself for it because I was like, I'm not good enough. But when I could witness myself, I can see this beautiful energy that this, this Taylor that I'm playing, it's like, he's a good dude. Like he genuinely cares about the world, you know? And it's like, wow, that's amazing. It was so hard for me because it's like the depth that I would recognize of that within me, the reflection outside of me would be people being like, you are not a good person. Like you are terrible. Like Satan has a hold of your heart. You are so selfish. You are so willing to hurt other people to put yourself forward. And it was just like this, you know, like it killed me inside because it's like, no, it's like, that isn't me. But that was like that, that tension I had to walk through to get to the point where I'm like, dude, why do I care about people's stories? It's like, I don't need them to like see me. And it was cool because, you know, I was able to go through that space, just like loving people and like hearing what they were saying to me and being like, I understand where you guys are coming from. I totally understand your perspective. And it's like, but I need you to know. It's like, when I create the stillness, when I tap in, this is where I'm being led and I'm trusting it, you know? And like now a lot of these people like it's, you know, we went through this massive arc and it's all good where they're like, hey, we're sorry, man, you know, like, but I needed to go through that. But my parents definitely still think I'm following Satan. They think I have completely lost my mind. Like everybody, you know, it's really sad because like just the other day, Christine posted a video just about like, cause you know, her relationships in the past have reflected her shadows and she, you know, she would give energy. So she attracted like narcissistic partners that would collapse her in all this. She made a post just talking about how like when you are in a love that just loves you as you are, she's like, it gives you so much safety to like express and grow. And like the way that she has grown this past year has been so beautiful to watch. And I have cousins commenting on the, on the, her posts being like homewrecker, you know, like you, you know, cause it's just, it's just one of those things where it's like, you will always have that tension, you know, from people who like create stories. But again, it's like, I also can see it from their perspective. Like I understand how it looks, you know? And it's like, I mean, I just told you guys these experiences and I'm like, you guys might take them or not take them. I'm like, but the only people who really know is like Christine and I, where we're like, that was so real. I can never doubt it. Right. Yeah. But it's just, it's just that illustration where it's just like, dude, of course, of course, my life in becoming who I am, you know, being a teacher, making my content, trying to like shine a light on some of the illusions and spirituality, bring people truly down the path of herogamy, balancing the masculine and feminine within, right. Recognizing that reality is reflecting you. You don't need signals outside of you. Like just witness yourself and see where you need to learn to grow. Of course, of course it's like, of course I'd be born into a Mormon family where it's basically, here's all of the things that you're supposed to do. And the path I had to go through was breaking every single one of those things, because it's the only way that you can learn to like tune into your own signal. Right. And like stand in that knowing and detach from that external validation. And so I can, I can look at it and I can see the divine design of my path. I'm sure everybody listening to this, if you look with clarity at the hard things you've been through, the ups, the downs, the lefts, the rights, you'll probably see a divine hand that, you know, there's, there's a purpose behind all of it. But also I can look at it and be like, dude, that fucking sucked. Like that was the worst, it was such a hard path to walk, but that's where you learn to detach from suffering. [Speaker 3] Yeah. You know, the thing is you were saying earlier, like, you know, growing up, you're like being told you are the chosen one, but the reality is we're all the chosen ones of us, of who we are. Like you are chosen to live this life as this act of curation. What are you doing with it? Are you honoring it? And so to have that level of belief in yourself, not to think like, okay, you're all Satan and I'm better than you and I'm following the path, but it's like, I have life force coming through me. Like there is this element of, I've been chosen by creation to fucking come forth and give something to the world, you know? And it's like, it's a level of self-belief that I think is necessary. [Speaker 1] I love it. And it's, it's so true because it's like, you know, every spiritual truth requires embracing paradox and, you know, people that get stuck in these chosen one narratives, right? It's like, you're onto a truth. It's like, but the thing is, it's not singular. Like you're not the only chosen one, you know? Or like sometimes people will, it's funny because it's like, they hate the Christians or they hate the Muslims or they hate organized religion, but then they're like just embodying the same energy where it's like, I'm the light, everybody's the shadow. And it's like, dude, it's the same thing. It's like, you're still creating the separation where it's like, all the bad is outside of me. All the good is inside of me, right? The spiritual bypassing. But it's like, you are chosen, right? But you also need to remember, none of this is real. Like this is all an illusion. Even this idea of the consciousness expansion and this evolution. And it's like expanding into what? It's like, you are the formless that took on form. That formless exists outside of space and time. You know, the things that we're doing in this plane, a lot of times people get stuck in like the escapism trap where it's kind of like you're trying to evolve past earth. You know, you're in the earth school and then you need to graduate and go somewhere else, which could totally be true. But it's like, I think it's more of you are this consciousness that descends down into these realms and you're expanding this realm. How? By being you, authentically, by transmuting that energy you were born into that told you you weren't enough or you had to be a certain way, right? And just being fully in your expression like that, that is how you bring coherence into this plane. It's not about trying to get back to the light. It is about bringing that light, that full expression, alchemizing the light and the shadow right here. But it's because people talk, they're just like, dude, it's like, I just want to, you know, it's like, I want to get off the prison planet. I want to escape, you know, and I do think in a lot of ways it is a prison planet, but I think it's because a lot of people are consciously projecting that and creating that prison. And so they're living within that. But it's, you know, you look at all these teachers that talk about heaven or hell and it's like, it's right here. Like we are in it. Why did creation come about? And it's like, for you to prove yourself and it's like, prove yourself to who? You're it. You know, it's like, you came to test yourself, to prove yourself to yourself so that you can become yourself again. And it's like, maybe, or maybe it's this beautiful gift, right? The formless that took on form to just experience. But that's just a maybe as well though, right? Exactly. But that's the thing is it's like, we have to hold all of these paradoxes because in the same way, right? If you only hold one side of this paradox, where's the incentive for growth? Where's the incentive for evolution? And also it can feed narcissistic behaviors where you're just like, I can do whatever the fuck I want because none of this matters. Right. And so, you know, you, you hear like Jesus say, be in the world, not of the world. I think he's teaching a paradox there where it's like, you have to recognize that none of this is real. Like it's all a projection of consciousness, but the other side is it's very real. Your human experience is so real pain, suffering, love. All of it is real. These children born into these cobalt mines real. But if you only hold the realness, that energy can really pull you down, right? Cause you can get into that depressive kind of just like, fuck, this place sucks. There's nothing I can do. If you only hold that, none of this is real. You can really get in that bypassing kind of like none of it's real. So I'm going to do whatever I want. But if you can be in the middle of that paradox, if you can hold both of those energies that can't simultaneously both exist, but they do right. We're in duality. It creates this embodied position where it's kind of like, you can give a fuck while not giving a fuck. Right. You can move forward to create a better world without being consumed by the energy of being like, what are we going to do to change it? And so that's where I think like so many people on the spiritual path, they're actually correct in the truth that they hold. They just need to find the other paradoxical energy so that it creates this balanced movement. And in that balanced movement, well, and I also think that paradox, because it is kind of like those two opposing forces kind of cracks you open and allows for like expansion to come in. Right. Because expansion is like, it's what you don't know. It is the horizon that you cannot see beyond. Like we don't even know what we don't know. And so it's that you have to open yourself up to allow those things to come in. [Speaker 2] Doesn't expansion imply growth, which implies a school growth philosophy? [Speaker 1] And that's, that's where I think that that's where I think that words can be very limiting, right? Because expansion is also just as much outward as it is inward, you know? So it's like expansion and contraction, right? You need both. I think I would explain it this way. I think the universe is a beautiful mirror where it's like the universe is infinitely expanding. And it's like, I don't think the universe is infinitely expanding to like prove itself or to be tested. It's just kind of like, it's an aspect of creation, right? To be alive. You look at the trees. If a, if a tree is alive, it's growing, it's expanding. Not because it needs to prove itself, but that's just part of being alive. And I think that's where some people feel like dead inside. It's not because they're actually dead. It's just, they're stagnant. And so I think it's, I think expansion is more of like being in tune with life force energy than it is about like needing to like prove yourself or being a school or like all those things. [Speaker 2] Yeah, totally, totally, man. I think, I think that's a different energy when you're coming from a place of trying to prove yourself. But I think I come more so from the philosophy that on a higher level, like we are always growing, expanding, like that's the whole point of self-responsibility of all the things that you went through. Like there's levels of maturity that one moves through. And I'm not sure I buy into the idea that like we exist beyond this plane as this fully mature, fully evolved, fully ascended version of ourselves. I think even on a soul level, what resonates most with me that we're all on this path and maybe multiple incarnations or multiple lessons, which we're going through. And I agree with you on the paradox level as well. I would just use different words. I think it's a semantics thing for me between none of it is real and all of Israel. I think it's more so like holding the tension of the finite and the infinite, you know? [Speaker 1] Yeah, well, it's like, you know, and so many people speak to this, Carl Jung, right? It's like the marrying of the conscious and the unconscious, the light and the shadow, you know, it's like Jesus taught about the bridal chamber and it's like, guys, what's getting married? Why does he keep talking about marriage, you know? And it's that it's, it's, it is all these, the dualities, the polarity, right? It's, it's the seemingly opposites that actually cannot be opposite. Because when you go to, you know, like the, the source of all what was before the big bang, that source, you know, it's everything and nothing. It is completely unified and also an empty void. Like we can't even comprehend it. And it's like, but from that came this illusion of separation. It's like Shiva and Shakti. Shiva is the space. Shakti is movement within the space because of Shakti. Shiva has mirrors to witness itself because of Shiva. Shakti has space to create and exist within. And it's like, but Shiva and Shakti are not two different things. It's the same force manifesting in a different way to create this, you know, push, pull this tension, this illusion of separation. And I think you're totally, totally right. I guess what I would say is I think a lot of times when we, when we think of this higher expanded form or the higher self or whatever, people still attach it from this lens of the ego. And, and I think there's like, I think there is a space where that cannot exist, where it, it, it just is right. It's like that ocean and the wave that people always use. And it's like, we all come from that. Now the levels within this illusion, the different games and experiences that we can play, different dimensions, different embodiments, all of those, it's just like, I wouldn't even begin to try to, you know, I think we're like bacteria in a gut. Bacteria in a gut does not know about the sun. It does not know about the solar energy it takes to create grass. It doesn't know about the cow eating the grass. It doesn't know about the cows being butchered, sent to a market. It doesn't know about the capitalistic dynamics of purchasing meat, cooking meat, all these different things. The bacteria in the gut just knows that when food comes in, it consumes it. And I think in a lot of ways, we're the same. We are bacteria in a gut. And there's only so much we can know and comprehend. But what I do think is important to know is it's like, but we all come from that same original source. Now, what, what are the experiences outside of this human experience and other dimensions and all that? It's just like, your guess is as good as mine. But I think it's that holding that knowledge of that underlying where it's like, okay, if everything is the same source being made manifest, and I think when you pair that to with the understanding that 95% of our actions are dictated by our subconscious mind, you can also realize that it's like the people that we judge, the people that we hate, the people that we demonize, the heroes and villains in this plane. If you were born into that same experience, same programming, it's very, very likely you'd be doing the same things, right? And it's like, because waking up and becoming conscious is an effort that is required. But I would also argue, and I wonder, I want to ask you guys, if you've seen this on your path, I believe a lot of my path has been the self revealing itself to me, where it's like, it's not even my efforts that have created it. It's just kind of like these events where an expansion would come in. And so it's like, I can't even identify with it and be like, Oh, this is me, you know, because it's just like, dude, it's just, it's revealing itself to me. And so I'm just kind of like this lucky bystander. How has your guys's experiences been with your expansions or progress? [Speaker 3] I was born enlightened. And I love that. This continued on that path. I don't know, man. It's just been like, it's just been a journey of continuous, like growth and greater self awareness and understanding the architecture of the psyche and connecting in a deeper way to nature. And, and, you know, it's been pretty magical, you know, and tough and hard. And I've enjoyed all the experiences. And I love being on earth. I love being in a body. I love, you know, learning through relationship and, and teaching and, and just being human. I love being human. I don't think I've ever, I've never been on the path where I've been like, I need to be not me, like, and all of it is part of me. So that's just been where I am. And I just know through my own self studies, like, I'm into esoteric spiritual stuff. But for me, it's all about what's practical and what's grounded in reality. You know, even though I'm into some stuff that might be considered woo woo, you know, like, I'm just a fucking dude. I'm a Jersey Greek that's just living his life. I'm really into human behavior. I'm really into what, what, what motivates people's actions in life. And I want to become the best person I can be. And I'm not afraid of the darkness, you know, that lies within either. So, cause it's just you, I mean, it's all me. It's like, we say the spiritual assignment is becoming yourself. Like is like, is like peeling away those layers of conditioning and programming that are clouding, you know, this, this more of your essence to come through. Like we're all given this spark of consciousness, you know, and sometimes we're born into families that support and nurture that. And sometimes, you know, we're born into families and cultures that kind of like make things a little bit more dense. It's like, in your case, you were, your path is like, you're born Mormon. Yeah. You know, like I had my own version, not as strict as Mormonism, but I was born on Greek Orthodox, you know, and I was first generation Greek American. There's certain things that are, it's like, this is how you should live. This is what we want for you. This is what we expect for you. But then you listen to that internal voice within, and there's some compass that's like, no, I don't, I don't want to make that left turn. I'm making a right turn. Oh, I may disappoint people in my life, but it's okay. You have to be willing to disappoint people in your life in order to move closer to this life that you ultimately on a deeper level want. And so, yeah, that's kind of been my path in a very, very short nutshell or a small nutshell. [Speaker 2] I think the important thing and the potential tripwire with like, you know, the new age version of spirituality that people get into, it's important not to bypass individual agency within this process as well. Because like, for example, you came from the Mormon church. I'm sure you have many friends and people that you know in your life that are still on that path, even though you had similar roots and upbringings. I came from Jehovah's Witnesses, same with me, so to speak. It's like, we always have choices that we were called to make at certain points in time. So it's like a both. It's like, yes, the path is being revealed. And at the same time, are you answering the call as the path is being revealed? Because the path can be revealed to all of us, yet how we respond to that path is different because for the majority of people, which is a key part of our study, is like, you know, blinders on, ears closed. No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to know anything about it. I like the status quo. I'm happy living this comfortable yet mundane life, right? Yet for some people, there's a tap on the shoulder where it's like, nah, this ain't it. There's something more here. Let me go into that cave. Let me see what's on the other side. [Speaker 1] Yeah. And that's, you know, that's an interesting, like, this is what I've really been sitting with because, so what's been like another really cool reflection for me is when my partner came into my life, again, this has been just the most beautiful reflection where it's like, you're given everything you need within the Mayan system, right? The Maya, the ancient Maya were just so plugged in, like they were incredible. [Speaker 2] By the way, I'm 3% Mayan, Taylor, just so you know. [Speaker 1] Are you really? That is so cool. That is so cool because seriously, the Mayan system, like they were plugged into reality, like repeating patterns of energy, identifying cycles, like how they move around, right? People like completely bastardized 2012, you know, where it's the end of the world. It's like, dude, they were talking about the end of an energetic world. And it's like, look at the chaos that has come in since that shift, you know? But so my girl is, you know, she works deeply with her Mayan ancestors. They like come to her in dreams, all these cool things. And because it's like only six or something codices survived after colonization, but now this wisdom is making a comeback. And what she brought to me was she was like, oh, okay, let's look at your energy. And internally within the Mayan system, I'm a no. And what a no is, is the cosmic mind. No, yeah. I want to look at, I want to check out your guys's, but it's the cosmic mind. And so people that have no tend to be able to like, like detach out of the ego and like tap into these kind of like more expansive understandings. And then like pull them back in and put a framework around it. Right. But the shadow side of no is they think they know everything. They're like a volcano. And so if they don't share the ideas, if they don't erupt or have an outlet, it causes some fear, depression, and like this internal tension, like all of these different things. Right. And I mean, like the minds, you know, there's so many more signs. That's just my main sign. And so she really taught me to like, sit down, meditate. And it's cool because when I do meditate, like I experience asking you shall receive in a big way, because when I have a question, I just create stillness. And then basically I don't even know how to explain it. It's kind of like you have to, you have to hold a paradox. So what I'll do is I'll hold everything I have to be true. And then at the same time, I'll be like, well, I might be wrong. And then if you hold both of those, it kind of cracks me open and it creates space. And I'll start witnessing, like understanding through like an experience or something, but it like, it reveals itself to me. It's not me seeking for it and it's not me creating it. It's just pulling into an awareness and then being like, where's this answer going to come from? And then like in that deep awareness, I'll be like, wait a second. I keep seeing this pattern. Okay. What does that pattern show me? I think it's like, what's really cool, what I've been seeing recently when I meditate is in the same way that like life has created these experiences for me, that kind of like put me down this path, right? I felt the call to ayahuasca, but I also needed to lose everything to be this catalyst to be like, okay, fuck it. And just so you guys know, that was my first experience with any form of anything. I'd never drank alcohol. I'd never really had like caffeine, never smoked. Yeah. I was a very, I was like, I follow all the rules, which is also why, you know, my parents are like, he's doing drugs. [Speaker 3] Don't start smoking crack now because you're younger, Taylor. Okay. [Speaker 1] But it's really interesting because when I meditate and this is where I say, you know, I struggle to completely say that this is like an earth school. Like I think that, you know, where I would align is basically like, I think it's like data aggregation. I think it like source created itself to witness itself in infinite expressions, in infinite sizes, right? Microcosm, macrocosm to just see like, what am I? Who am I? Right? That's what the human experience is. If we look at our individuals, like what am I? [Speaker 2] The reality shows you that you live on earth and you're learning something and you're growing, right? For sure. [Speaker 1] Well, and I think, but, but again, I think it comes down to what, what is the purpose of growth? Could it be to learn? Absolutely. Like, are the trees constantly learning? Probably, you know, like all of these things that are alive, but also it's like, if you, if you think about being everything and nothing, right? That void, it's like, it already is it, it is the starting line and the finish line, right? So everything we're becoming is already contained within it. And so if we are that, and we took on form, it's like, there's an experience through this transition, through the expansion, through the river, you know, the Dow. And it's like, but for what purpose? Because that's where I'm like, I'm like, you can't learn something you already know. And that's why most of our expansion experiences feel like remembrances, right? Where it's like, it's already in there. And so that's why I'm like, Oh, I don't think learning is the best word. I think it's more of like, like a revealing, like, like I said, it's kind of like a love story. [Speaker 2] Well, I mean, your, your, your take reminds me of, I think I raised it in your podcast as well. Aristotle's idea of antelope key, you know, like the acorn already contains the blueprint of the oak tree. [Speaker 1] Exactly. And, and I think it's a little bit more, I think like a stem cell is a really good example because it's like a stem cell contains the blueprint for the whole organism, organism, but it's the signals that get sent that show what it manifests. So I think all of us, like with your take on what's, why can I not think of the word? Yes. I think, I think like we do have a choice, right? Cause we get to decide what potential we manifest and what we create. But I think we, we contain all those potentials within us. You know, it's like all the paths are already there. And so our selection is basically like, which experience would we like to have? But again, it's like, could it be for learning and growth? Sure. Could it just be for experience? Because you're like, I mean, if you understand that we exist outside of space and time. And when I say we, I I'm, I'm talking about the big, the big way, you know, not us, but again, that's a big maybe, right? [Speaker 2] Like what is outside space and time? Where is the outside space and time? Like, how do we know that we, this consciousness exists? Like, sure. [Speaker 1] We can, you know, we can go to estimate, we can ponder, we can, we can lean into what I would say is like, I would say what I come from is my understanding of like, cause I've had some experiences where it's kind of like you pull and like, you can't even put it into words. Cause it's like, there's nothing to witness it. And then you just kind of come back in and it's just like, what the, it's this, like I was nowhere and there was nothing. And it's just like, what was that? [Speaker 2] You know, like the argument that consciousness is non-local, which I can get behind. [Speaker 1] Totally. And so that's, that's where I would say I come from my understanding where it's like, okay, I think that is a space where it's everything and nothing because like, but, but anyways, the most important thing and what I agree with you is there are no absolute truths, right? Like, and this is where I love like having these discussions where you can like challenge because it's like, I hold to my experiential knowledge. Right. And that, that frames my viewpoint. And it's like, and I will continue to hold that until something like challenges it where it's like, oh, here's the more expanded perspective. Right. And I think that's where it's like all of us, right. Are here. And we're all these reflections of one another. You know, there's this saying in Mayan where it's in like catch all a kid. I'm another you, you are another me. Right. It's kind of like, we're all that potential, but it's manifesting as an individual. But what I was going to say with the outside of the space and time is I think a lot of times people think of reincarnation as linear to where it's kind of like you have these past lives and then you have future lives and it's like, but also if, if space and time is not a construct, you know, or it is a construct that we enter into, you could have lived your life a million times and taken every different path. And this time you're just taking this path as well. You know, it's like you could, you could experience all those as one individual. And sure. We're in this plane where we can see the one existence, right. Where it's kind of like, okay, there was one life that was Jesus. And then here's what Hitler was and all these, you know, all these other people. And it's like, but I also, you know, subscribe to the multiple worlds theory, right. Within quantum physics, where it's just like, there are infinite realities that contain the potential of like all of these parallel, you know, decisions that you could have made. And, you know, you went here on this road and so reality splits and there's an existence on that one. All of these things, all of these things could totally be true. But I think the most important thing for the listeners and coming back to this baseline is, and where I would say, I don't believe in again, just that like the school or whatever. I don't, I believe what becoming is, is less about like, it's, it's about every person is a specific Lego piece. And it's like, but you have things that happen to you that make you not express as the Lego piece that you are, right. Or you're not safe to be that Lego piece, or you don't do the discovery to know what you actually are. And so it's like, as you do the work, as you marry the masculine, the feminine, the conscious, the unconscious, you alchemize that shadow, you come more into your authentic expression. But I believe that Lego piece or that you could conceptualize it as a puzzle piece, too. It's not about becoming a puzzle piece that fits in. It's about being the puzzle piece that you were born as. And there's a magnetism to it, where it attracts those other pieces, and they come together. Right. And so that's where I'm like, I'm like, Oh, I don't think it's a school. I think it's more of like a gym. [Speaker 2] The problem is, what I'm sensing is that the problem is, our preconceived conditioning around the word school, learning, education plays a big problem here. Because the roots of the word education comes from the Latin word educare, right? And educare does not mean to fill in, to pack in, to like just consume endless knowledge. It means to bring forth, to lead out. And ultimately, what real education is, is based on the idea that every single one of us contains a unique inner genius. There's a unique inner spirit that each of us were born with, and came with at the moment of our birth, right? And the real purpose of education is to bring that forth. But we don't live in an environment or a society or a culture that fosters the unique inner genius of each individual coming forth organically. [Speaker 1] I see. And this is why conversations are like so important, because I'm fully there with you. And I think when I'm speaking to school, I'm speaking to fear based narratives, where it's if you don't get the right grade, you don't pass. And you're speaking to it from a more loving, expansive view, where it's tapping into that potential, right? Going to a place that is giving you the resources and everything you need to fully express and be who you are, right? Both stand as schools. And it's like, this is where language is so tough, because yeah, I'm attacking the fear based, where it's like, you don't need to prove yourself to anything. It's like you are it. And it's like, you're safe to be it. Can you express it? And I think that's the same thing that you're saying is like, we come into this plane that is giving us every resource, everything we need to like fully step into that expression, not out of the like, you need to prove or, you know, fear based, but it's more like a loving. [Speaker 2] You need to be a good JW and you need to be a good, right? Yeah. There's no punishment attached to it. It's like, the punishment is self-inflicted by the choices you make, by how much integrity you move with, by how much consciousness you choose to bring forward. But to me, like this experience is the ultimate divine gift that every single one of us has been given. And whether that's, you know, whether you perceive that as a learning experience or whatever it might be, whatever semantics you apply on it, like this is the gift, like what else, you know, could it possibly be? [Speaker 1] Well, and it's, you know, and I do think another piece of it is, you know, when people think that like enlightenment is like an end state, you know, and it's, you know, this is like the best illustration of the inverted plane that we live in, or how things like work with paradox, I guess, you know, because it's like, if you hold that you are enlightened energetically, you're closed off, right? So it's like ironic, you think it's like, you hold yourself to have it all. And so you literally have none, you know, and then it's like, but if you hold yourself as not being enlightened, that is actually a prerequisite for what true enlightenment is. And it's like, what is enlightenment? And it's just like, I can't define it. I just know that as I open myself up in these experiences, I keep witnessing myself, I enter a deeper understanding of myself, I enter into deeper spaces of love, right? desire, whatever it may be. And I think what's so fascinating about this experience is it's like we live well, again, if I can go back to my analogy, and my understanding of being like, this is a paradox of like, all separation is illusion. And yet we are witnessing separation everywhere, right? And so it's like, how are we all the same, but we're all different. What I saw in a meditation, what was really cool was basically it was like a piece of paper that like kind of folded up. And it was like one was like a conscious observer. And the other piece of the paper was, which is the same paper is a physical manifestation of that consciousness observer, but in infinite lenses, angles and perspectives, right? So it's like, you can see, it's like, how does my energy manifest as an animal, as a plant, as a sky, as a luminary, as an interaction with another human being, it's all these core energies, but they can manifest in many different ways so that we can see the different perspectives. And I think, you know, like I was saying, with my experiences, my greatest teacher has been realizing that everything is reflecting me back to me. Now that does not mean that like your actions, you know, like reflection of me, but my interpretation of your actions, right? The emotions that come up, you know, all these different things. I can witness myself in your movement, but it's that like internal work. And I do think like part of this experience, what you were saying, where it's like, it is love. It is like source can split itself into all these different expressions just to experience it. So, you know, it's like, I look at like Christine and I, and it's like our relationship, right? It's like bringing the two into one can be a very, very spiritual, expansive experience. And her and I are constantly chasing expansion, right? Deeper levels of connection with one another. How much further can we go? What can we feel? And it's like, but the purpose of that is simply to experience it. You know, it's not like we feel like we need to do it. It's not because we feel like, you know, it is like our love, her existing, you know, we feel like we're the same energy, but how beautiful to be separate where it's like, I get to experience me and her and her and her, and she experiences herself and me and herself, you know, in herself and all these. And it's just like, wow, how beautiful to have, to be separate, to have these situations too. And I even think, you know, people get so bogged down with the energy right now. And it's like, dude, how beautiful that we have the potential to be the generation that like puts earth on a much better path. I'm like, how fucking cool. What other experience out there would you want? You know, it's like, this is amazing. But again, it's not this like do or die where it's like, if we don't do it, it's all gone. You know, it's just this beautiful weightlessness where it's like, wow, we get to experience this, like awakening, we get to experience fighting against something, you know, that is so distorted and like bringing truth and there's beauty in all that, you know, but you can also kind of like surrender to the higher energetics where it's like, okay, it's not all on my shoulders. I might be chosen in the fact that like this experience, me being Taylor is a gift from the divine. And I want to take advantage of it every single day because I love this dude, and he's a good dude. So I'm never going to suppress his expression. Like he is chosen to be here right now. But the other side of it is it's just like, everybody's chosen. Everybody at any moment, we're going to call these episodes Taylor Perkins, the chosen one, the chosen one, please. Yes, that, by the way, is like my biggest one of my biggest like subconscious. Sometimes people, you know, will shoot me a DM. And it's just like, dude, are you Jesus? And it's like, no, and it wouldn't even matter. You know, it's like, that doesn't matter. You don't need to be someone else. [Speaker 2] Jesus reincarnated, episode 296. Yeah, yeah. So there it is. [Speaker 3] All right. Now that we talked about all this shallow stuff, let's get into something deep. Yeah, please. Are you a Utah Jazz fan? And who do you think is going to win NBA championships? [Speaker 1] Dude, so I, like I said, I have gone through basketball. Basketball was my support. And I am telling you, I am one of those guys where I'm just like, dude, if I didn't get hurt, and the right opportunities were there, I'm like, I would be playing in the league right now. [Speaker 3] Okay, I love that. [Speaker 1] The chosen one. I mean, come on, dude, LeBron James? [Speaker 3] No, we got Taylor Perkins in the house. [Speaker 1] Yeah. But the other side of that is, like I told you, where I'm like, my life has been a living hell this past two years. Like, every single thing, like sports and all the fun stuff kind of got stripped away, but I'm coming back into it. And so becoming more human again. [Speaker 3] Okay, so were you a jazz fan? [Speaker 1] You lived in Utah? [Speaker 3] Okay, good. [Speaker 1] No, I did not like the jazz, dude. And you know, it's funny. It's funny because a big thing for me is like, I did grow up though, speaking to Mormon lore, we believed that Michael Jordan, and Kobe Bryant, both under the power of Satan for sure. For sure evil people. Wow. So Mormons were raised to believe that Jordan? In my house, we were just like, we're like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. It's like, they are so satanic. They are so bad. Like it's always anything you're against. It's the devil, like for real, though. Wow. But now I look at them and I'm just like, damn, those were good players. You know, I like watching Michael Jordan's highlights. And I'm just like, I missed out on watching this dude play because I thought he was so evil. [Speaker 3] Tough being a Utah jazz fan, you know, thinking about MJ. [Speaker 2] We have a specific episode diving into the occult and history of Kobe Bryant, by the way, including the occult and rituals around his death and things of that nature. [Speaker 1] It's a good one. [Speaker 2] I didn't check that out. It's a good one for sure. I didn't check that out. Yeah. [Speaker 1] No, and that's, see, this is what I love about you guys. And like, you know, it's really interesting because everybody has like a different experience, a different path, you know? And mine, like I said, mine is very just like meditate and just kind of look at my life and be like, what reflections can I pull in? And what does this show me? And I love what you guys bring. And this is why I loved our, you know, conversation, Joel, is like, just the, your ability to like dive in to like the occultism, the symbolism, all these different things, you know, it's so cool, you know, because again, like the way I see it, it's all these different reflections that like express a similar thing, just in a different lens, angle or perspective. But it just hasn't been something that I've been like enveloped in, but I love it when I have people that have, because it's just like, dude, just give me, give me all the information so I can know what it's speaking about. [Speaker 2] Give it a, give it a couple of years, bro. You'll get there. Yeah, yeah. Dude, thank you so much, man, for joining us today. So good to hang with you again. So I had no idea you had four kids, you know, and like, it's absolutely wild, man. What you've been through, where you've come from and where you are now, for sure, bro. Appreciate your time. [Speaker 1] Yeah. And to everybody, everybody listening to this, all right, a lot has been said, take what resonates and leave what doesn't, you know, it's like, we're all on our journeys. And it's like, for me, I will speak two things in very convincing language, because I'm like, this is what I know. But obviously it's like, we're all on our path to expand. And that's why I loved, you know, the challenges or the ability to just be like, oh, here's where I disagree. Especially with that school one, man, because I'm like, damn, that's so true. Every time I attack the schools, I'm just going from the fear-based narrative. I keep forgetting about the expansive love aspect of what a school could be. [Speaker 2] Well, I mean, Capricorn, I think that Capricorn, I think that Saturn, like the great teacher, like this is a necessary archetype that needs to be integrated. Like there are elements of teacher that exist, you know? And you know, the thing is about me and you, bro, you coming from Mormonism, you coming from Jehovah's Witnesses, I think we have this tendency to always speak in like, this is the truth. This is the way I know things. I figured it out. You know what I mean? It's like, we were raised in this sense where it's like, this is the truth. This is the only way everyone else has got it wrong. Everyone's going to hell. Everyone's getting, you know, frustrated by Satan, so to speak. You know, it's like us? Nah. And we are the messengers. We're going to go knock on the doors. We're going to go spread the good words to people. So there's that tendency when we find something that resonates on a deeper level to be like, this is the shit, you know? [Speaker 1] You just meet a Erosimus in your life. Exactly. Exactly. I was just talking to someone and they're just like, they're like, dude, you just feel like you know everything. And I'm like, no, I really don't. We had a discussion and they were like, oh, okay, you talk like you do though. And I'm like, that is fair. That is a fair point. [Speaker 3] You said something earlier that is something I talk about often, which is like, I have convictions, I have beliefs, but depending on who I'm speaking with, it's like, what do you communicate? You can communicate with passion that you have the knowledge and you have this. And it's like, you just throw in a little like, and I'm on this path just like you and I may be wrong. Just that one little thing can be the difference between a person being like, oh, okay, I can hear this person as opposed to like, I'm just being fucking talked at. [Speaker 1] Well, and that's like, you see so many people positioning themselves as those gurus. It's like, I love to talk about this shit because I'm just like, dude, we're alive. We're in reality. It's like, what is this? How do we play in this plane? But it's like, again, anyone that's setting themselves up to be a guru, that is like, so false. It doesn't mean that there can't be people with more expanded awareness that can be guides and all that, but it's like, no one contains the all. No one does. We all can learn from one another's perspectives, the angles, the mirrors. It's like where Buddha says, it's like, everybody's my teacher, but the other side of it is everyone's your teacher, but you got to be a lamp unto yourself as well, where it's kind of like, all right, let me march my path. [Speaker 3] And some people are retarded and you shouldn't listen to what they have to say. So you have to have- That's where intuition and discernment comes in. [Speaker 2] Yeah, for sure. Yeah, man, totally. And the whole guru worship that exists within the culture is the reason why the churches exist in the first place. It's because just this human tendency to not trust thyself because we don't know ourselves. And so constantly outsource our decision-making process to people that actually don't know us and don't know what's actually meant for us. [Speaker 1] And it's a lot of people, like what I was saying, when they demonize the ego or they think the spiritual path is to kind of like beat the ego into compliance, it's like reject the human, only embrace the spiritual. And the way I see it is it's basically like your ego, like this family you were born into, the person that you are, the epigenetics that you have, the social conditioning, programming, all of these things, it's like, it's just a fucking bronco. And it's just like in a rodeo where you have these bull riders or people that go on and they're holding on. It's like, for a lot of people, that's also like the person that you are. It's like, you're on this ride. And it's like, you don't have to dominate the ego. You don't have to beat it into compliance. You don't have to starve it so that you break it. And now it listens to you. It's like, you can also do it through love. And you can also recognize that, you know, it's like some people are born onto crazy fucking broncos, where it's like that, that like programming it has would consume anyone. And that's where I think it's important to like, just hold love for yourself. But then also, just, you know, I always say if you have 100 people in a room, and there's someone, you know, that's like an addict in the middle, and those 100 people think that that person will never change. It's like you are consciously putting your, you know, compute, if you look at this as like a simulation or whatever, it's like you are putting your conscious energy into creating like this energetic prison, they can expand past it, they can break out of it. And it's like, but you're still creating this story. And if you just hold the potential that anybody can change at any moment, it's like, number one, it's a reflection that you hold that for yourself. And so you're going to expand, but also, it allows people less of a headwind. And I think we need a little bit more of that right now. And the craziness of the world that we're in is like people need to say, okay, let's fight against it. But also like, things can change, and they will change. And I'm very optimistic. [Speaker 3] And they are changing, you know, in the way that they are. [Speaker 2] So Brian, if we can, we can look at where we've come from, even just in the last decades, where we are now. And if we if we're really realistic about the observations, we've come a long way, which is not our tendency to take take stock of the positive for whatever reason But I do want to close on one thing. And before you mentioned, what even is the definition of enlightenment, and to the ancients, they took enlightenment a very different way. They didn't take it as, as lights or like evolution or ascension of consciousness. They took it as like being light-footed in the world. And that's actually the definition of what the full card, the first card of the tarot is. [Speaker 3] Satan. [Speaker 2] It's to move lightly, right? To not take yourself or life too seriously, to be open minded, to be able to make shifts and pivots, and navigate and not get bogged down. And like that happens through the work through self knowledge, through walking the path, you know, and like, I think that's what ultimately wants to be moving towards becoming more light-footed in how we perceive ourselves and how we embrace the world. [Speaker 3] I want to I want to add on that too, because one of my teachers, and I've said this before on the podcast, you know, when he talked about enlightenment, it was the ability to move through and navigate opposites, you know, you talked about duality so much. So you can't do that if you're heavy footed. There has to be a lightness, there has to be a curiosity, expansion, and to be able to do that, you know, so. [Speaker 1] And I think it's, I think it's why there's so many people that allude to this existence in its, you know, most expressed form as a dance. Because it's like, if you're dancing, it's that light footedness, right? And dancing is the movement with the energy, you know, and all that. And so I love it, man. [Speaker 3] Yeah, so someone who can't dance, he's gonna have heavy feet, you know? So yeah. Awesome, bro. Listen, a pleasure to connect with you. For sure. [Speaker 2] Yeah, yeah, you're awesome. [Speaker 1] Thanks for having me on. [Speaker 2] Norris, man. In closing, bro, how can our people find you? Where would you like to point them if they want to go deeper? [Speaker 1] Yeah, well, as, as we just stated on the podcast, I have all the answers. So no, but if you would, if we found out, yeah, you can just find me on social media. And then my links there have, you know, some really cool guided meditations, like one of the big, big things that I really want people to like tap into just that I've seen with me is most expansion actually comes from just removing a collapse that kept you limited. You know, so it's like, you don't need to force like, you know, outward expression. It's kind of like, the best example of this, I think, in the animal kingdom is like a queen bee. When a queen bee dies, the, you know, all the bees, they can pick any old larva from one to three days old. It doesn't matter what it is. And they take it to the queen's chamber and they feed it royal jelly. Royal jelly bypasses an inhibitor that tells the bees to collapse into worker bees. And it allows the bee to go into the full expression that is the queen bee, right? So it's not changing the genetics. It's just bypassing an inhibitor. All of us have subconscious inhibitors that tell you you're not safe to speak up. You're not safe to move. And if you do that subconscious work, and if you plant more expansive energies, like a huge energy that I'm doing guided meditations with right now, trying to get people to do is this energy of inevitability, this recognition that as you move towards something and move towards you, that you can't miss it. There's a weightlessness to that energy. Again, it doesn't mean you do no movement. It's just, you're not bogged down with that energy. All of those are linked on my pages. And that's kind of the work is like, I think if you get out of your own way, it's like a Russian nesting doll situation of balloons. If you pop the innermost balloon, the expansion will automatically go to that next container. And then it's basically learning to witness the next container, pop that and expand. And so just get out of your own way, but all that social media, I am Taylor Perkins. I love you guys. I don't have all the answers. [Speaker 2] No, I appreciate it again. Everyone else. Thanks for listening. Take care. Cool.