Ruby Fremon Cracked Open: a Story of Grief, Collapse & Aliveness

Joel 00:00:04.240 - 00:00:58.980 Ruby Freeman is an author, somatic practitioner, mentor and teacher who has spent more than a decade supporting hundreds of leaders around the world through personal growth, healing and transformation. Her work weaves together her extensive background in coaching and leadership with her education in trauma and somatics, helping people reconnect with who they are beneath the patterns and expectations they've learned to carry. She's the author of Potent Leadership and the creator of Equia, her equine based somatic modality. At the heart of Ruby's work is an invitation to live and lead with greater sincerity, self trust and embodied presence. This is Ruby's second appearance on Here for the Truth. She first joined us way back in 2021 on an episode called Leading with Integrity in a Changing World. That was over five years ago at this point. Ruby, thanks for being back. Good to see you. Ruby 00:00:59.540 - 00:01:20.180 It's so good to see you guys and so good to be back in this space. And I'm excited that this is going to be my first conversation on a podcast in a few years because I just feel that we all have the same depth of integrity and that really matters now more than ever. Yerasimos 00:01:20.790 - 00:01:34.310 Yeah. Thanks for obviously coming on. Thanks for trusting us. And I know we've been in touch here and there over the years and you've been on a journey for sure. I know we'll tap into a little bit of that and I guess I'll ask this question, how you been? Joel 00:01:36.630 - 00:01:37.110 Wow. Ruby 00:01:38.390 - 00:02:21.940 I mean, we're going to open up with that. How I am today in this moment is I feel great, but that can change in any given moment. To be honest, I feel like I've been cracked open to the point where I'm. I'm both softer and more in touch with my emotions while also being more in touch with my truth. So it's been an interesting experience to hold all of it all at once because I feel like I get overwhelmed easily these days compared to before, where I could really keep. Keep it together, you know? So, yeah, I don't know, I might. I have Kleenex ready because I. I wasn't sure if I was going to cry today. Joel 00:02:22.340 - 00:02:45.070 Yeah, well, I mean, obviously a lot of this has been shared publicly. Many people have been watching your journey over the past few years and I think, you know, I really like to do our audience the service of going deep into it so we can kind of come out the other side and really explore what that means for you personally. So wherever you feel called Ruby is good for us. Ruby 00:02:46.910 - 00:05:46.260 I mean, shall we just start at. At 2022. I would say the first half of 2022, I had finally reached that place, like every entrepreneur's dream of getting to that place of sustainability, a constant flow of clients, spaciousness. In my business. My husband and I were finally. I was 40 years old and ready to get pregnant. So we were on that journey. And then in June 2022, there was a tragic incident with my dog. And this is where I. I'm gonna admit, like, I also feel this projection because I think as soon as people hear, oh, it's her dog. Like their stories. But this was one of the worst dog cases in the state of Texas. And what. What actually happened was our dog was killed and the dog sitters lied. Led us on a goose chase. But during that goose chase, we. I would get upwards of 400 messages a day on Facebook, Instagram, text our hotline. People would have dogs whining in the background saying, I have your dog. Give us money. Sent pictures of ashes saying that we ran over your dog, and these are her ashes. Like, it. It was that fucking wild. And I was in full fight mode. I just wanted the truth, and I just wanted to know what happened. But eventually, the fight mode burnt out. Like, I was fighting so hard that I burnt out. And within six months, I reached, like, a dorsal vagal shutdown, a complete shutdown. And that was the first time I'd ever experienced anything like that. And I was not even aware of it at all. I remember starting therapy, and my therapist to this day, psychotherapist, does ifs. She also does se. I don't remember how I would get there because I basically never left the house. I could barely get out of bed. Nothing felt real. I was so dissociated and detached from the world. I couldn't go grocery shopping on my own because I was so. Just scared. People were stalking me, people involved in the case. We were having financial struggles. Our initial attorney was kind of taking us on a ride, and PIs were taking us on a ride. And it just ended up being this whole thing where six months after she had died, but we didn't know she died. We got the truth through someone. That's all I wanted. So I said, okay, let's drop the lawsuit. It was just civil lawsuit to find out the truth. Joel 00:05:46.710 - 00:05:47.030 Yeah. Ruby 00:05:47.030 - 00:06:22.700 And as soon as we told them that, they slapped us with a $1 million defamation suit. $1 Million. And then all of a sudden, all of my social media history is up for grabs. So they start going through all of my podcast episodes that I've ever done. Pulling up my history with psychedelics, plant medicine, me talking on my podcast about my history with depression, and they were weaponizing all of it. So here I was, a very public figure now, having my story being used against me in the most vulnerable way. Joel 00:06:23.100 - 00:06:23.460 Yeah. Ruby 00:06:23.460 - 00:06:25.420 So, of course I experienced the shutdown. Joel 00:06:26.700 - 00:06:35.420 For those that aren't super familiar with the details, is it too raw to get into some of the context? Just so for those that don't know that. Ruby 00:06:35.500 - 00:06:46.300 That this makes sense, it's not too raw. I, um. We can also link her website here if they actually really want to get into it, But I. I highly suggest doing so with a box of Kleenex. Joel 00:06:46.540 - 00:06:50.860 Yeah. Maybe just, like, a brief overview of, like, what happened. So all this lands the right way. Ruby 00:06:52.540 - 00:06:56.540 Yeah. Feel free to ask. Yeah. Joel 00:06:56.780 - 00:07:00.060 Do you want to share her story in any way that kind of feels right to you? Ruby 00:07:01.980 - 00:08:02.770 Yeah. And I'll share it in a way that is going to honor the legal agreement that we end up having to get y. So given everything that we uncovered, we believe that what happened was that day the sitters left the house they weren't supposed to, and there was more dogs there than we agreed with to. And one of her dogs, who had a history of attacking small female dogs we were not aware of that attacked and killed our dog Leia, in front of our other dog, Luke. And then when we were gonna go pick her up about four hours early, I called on the way saying, hey, we're early. We're just gonna go come pick up our dogs. And she was kind of frantic and said, leia just got out. So instantly, intuitively, I knew something was wrong. Joel 00:08:03.090 - 00:08:03.650 Yeah. Ruby 00:08:04.050 - 00:10:11.310 But I just went into, like, let's figure this out mode. So we got there, and quickly, things just felt really weird. Like, really weird. They weren't looking us in the eyes. The dogs were all tied up outside. Luke. I. I went in to get him, but they were very hesitant to let me in the house. And I was like, I just want to go get my other dog. And that whole room smelt like. Like bleach and pee. And Luke was shaking, and I knew something was off. But when you're constantly being told this other story, you just don't want to believe that a human being could do that. So for the next, like, three weeks, I was out 12 hours a day searching for my dog. And in. In Texas heat, and it was. There were so many. Feel free to ask questions, because I feel like this period of my life, 2022 to about 2024, so many traumas happened at the same time that everything became overcoupled. So during this time of searching, I lost a lot of friends because people couldn't understand what was going on. I found myself searching day and night on my own or with my husband. I felt very lost and alone. And then I was accused of not being there for my friends who are going through breakups. And I'm like. I am, like, really overwhelmed right now, trying to figure out what the is going on here. I knew I was being lied to. I hired canine trackers, 2, who both came to the same conclusion. Every day that I searched, I would find myself sitting on a rock at our local church in the neighborhood, staring towards the trees. Every day, I just found myself there. And then later, when we actually got the truth through an ex of one of the sitters, because he was shown our dog, he told us what happened, and they came back home, found her dead, wrapped her up, threw her in the dumpster at the local church. Joel 00:10:11.790 - 00:10:14.430 So they. They were in the house at the time of the incidents. Ruby 00:10:15.120 - 00:10:15.920 They were not there. Joel 00:10:15.920 - 00:10:17.280 So they weren't actually sitting? Ruby 00:10:18.080 - 00:10:18.680 Nope. Yerasimos 00:10:18.680 - 00:10:20.160 No. They just left them all in there? Ruby 00:10:23.120 - 00:12:30.270 Yeah. And so they discarded her body. And it was weird because when I found that out, I was like, that is exactly the first place we searched. But unfortunately, the cameras at the church weren't working. And that is also where I sat every day. Every day. So by the time we had that information, like, we have no body, we have nothing. We can't prove anything. And then at that time, in the state of Texas, there's no crime, because animal cruelty laws in the state of Texas at that time didn't have negligence stated as part of animal cruelty. Whereas in other states like California, negligence is counted in animal cruelty, which means that we can only pursue a civil suit, which means there's not really much you can do. So we were kind of screwed. So when I found out the truth and let it go, we were not expecting to be slapped with a defamation suit for a million dollars and then have so much of my life become public, you know? And so, for someone who has always shown up transparently, with integrity, authentically, all of a sudden, I felt very exposed in all the wrong ways. And, like, everything about my life was being used against me. And so the hyper vigilance was at a level so extreme, I could not function. I could not leave my house. I couldn't even walk from our house to the garage. I had my husband install more cameras, floodlights. I would quadruple check all the locks in our house before going to bed. It was just. It was wild. It was a wild time for something that feels like if you had just told us that day, I would have been really pissed. But even so, there would have been absolutely nothing we could do. Yeah, you wouldn't. Nothing would have happened to you because the laws were. Were what they were. You know what I mean? And then they chose to lie about it this whole time. Joel 00:12:30.830 - 00:12:37.770 Yeah. So, like, the sitters put a defamation lawsuit on you for your public search for truth. Ruby 00:12:37.930 - 00:13:58.580 Yeah. Let's talk about ultimate gaslighting. Yeah, right. Like the ultimate form of gaslighting. And they could do that. That's a sad thing. They could do that because we couldn't prove our story. And then even though we had a polygraph from our main witness, doesn't matter, because polygraphs aren't really super submissible in court. So we had to go through that whole process. And that's hard because it's like you are now in the spotlight, as if you are the one who did wrong by the people who actually did wrong. And it just felt really vicious, really unnecessarily cruel. And at that time, our dog, you know those, like, National Geographic videos of. Of the gazelle being chased by the line and then it shakes on the ground like that. That was happening to Luke. So he started having that experience about a week or two after, and he started going through his trauma response. And that. That was hard to witness, you know, so it wasn't just us. It was like our other dog. And the not knowing is really hard. The not knowing and then having all these people coming at you. Because, again, my case was so public. I was so public. Joel 00:13:59.140 - 00:13:59.620 Yeah. Ruby 00:13:59.780 - 00:14:05.380 That I was getting so many messages all the time. It just. It's overwhelming, you know? Joel 00:14:06.260 - 00:14:06.740 Yeah. Ruby 00:14:07.220 - 00:16:12.110 So that led me to go back to therapy. And it's only like this year when my therapist really admitted. When you came to me, you were in shutdown. Like, your affect was totally flat. You spoke at a really low level. You were not making eye contact. You did not move on the couch. And I reflect back to those days, and I'm like, yeah, I barely remember life. Like, I don't remember how I was functioning. And that, I think was the most surprising part was as being as strong as I am, as being as public as I am, with all the healing work that I've done throughout the decades and helping people heal, that I could hit that low of a place. And then that wasn't even the lowest. It just kept getting worse. But that incident with Leia triggered all of my deepest core wounds to come to the surface. It was like the needle in the haystack where I couldn't find it my entire life. Like, I was always, like, chasing, healing, trying to make myself better, but I couldn't find the thing that brought the thing to the surface. And it. The gaslighting piece is a huge piece I grew up in a household with where narcissism wasn't as rampant. Manipulation, lies, deception. And the incident with Leia just really highlighted all of that and brought all of that to the surface. So now all of a sudden, I'm in therapy, trying to deal through incident with Leia, trying to get to a place where I can actually leave the house and get groceries on my own. Trying to get to a place where I feel safe in my body and in the world again. And now all this family trauma is all of a sudden making itself shown, and I can finally see and recognize the actual depth of the trauma that I have endured and gone through for the first time. Joel 00:16:12.430 - 00:16:12.950 Yeah. Ruby 00:16:12.950 - 00:27:04.700 And so it was just all of this and at the same time, all this friendship stuff because no one's understanding what's going on. It's. It's really hard to sit. So sit beside someone and watch them go through something like this. I get it. And looking back, I can see that that was really just a filtering. But in that moment, it was really hard, you know, to just watch people dissipate from your life. And because I was going through what I was going through, I had to start letting go of pieces of my business. The first being my podcast. All of a sudden, I don't have a podcast for people to come on. And, you know, people just call less. You're not as. As significant or as important. Especially living in Austin, where the influencer space is kind of weird. It was a really interesting time. And I started to lose sense of all identity because I let go of pieces of my business that I had unconsciously built identity around. Who am I without my podcast? Who am I without my group programs, my masterminds? Who am I without the money and the success? Who am I without the sense of significance and notoriety? And then I couldn't work out because my body started shutting down. And I've been an athlete pretty much my entire life. Who am I without this athletic body? And I fought hard like I was gripping onto whatever identities I could. I kept working, I kept pushing through, but I was working less and less and less. And then it got to the point where I was only doing a few one on one clients, working within my capacity and not doing more because I couldn't fathom letting go of all of that, because then who would I be without anything? And at the same time, you have to understand, I am married. And my husband is watching me go through this. He's not as public or wasn't at the time, so he wasn't really a target. I was the target. But he married a high achieving, super hyper independent woman, very successful on her own. And all of a sudden, I'm a dependent. So there was a massive shakeup for us too, as a couple in our marriage, where all of a sudden I'm a dependent. Like, I cannot afford my own things. I can't afford the overhead on my business. I let so many things go. And then in December 2024 is when I hit the absolute, like, mycelium network of rock bottoms. Like, I was completely decomposed, no identity, and suicidal. But this was like a very different iteration of suicidal than I had ever experienced in my life, where I was genuinely ready to go. Like, I was like, there's nothing for me in this world. If anything, I'm a burden to everyone. I don't understand. I was so detached from things. And the cries for help that probably were more like whispers weren't really being heard. And I. Yeah, I mean, I was. I spent a lot of time daydreaming. Ways that I would do it, how would I do this in a way that. Where it would. Could be quick. I wouldn't leave people wondering because after going through what I went through with Leia, I didn't want to leave anyone wondering, like, what happened to her. These were the things that were going through my mind, and I was unable to. To function at all. Like, I. I feel. I look back and I think about what my husband witnessed, and. I just thank God for him because of what he must have seen and how hard that must have been for him to watch me go through that and the manic episodes that I was having, the things I. I would say out loud, but completely dissociated from my body. You know, he kept the gun locked in a safe. And thank God I didn't have the code, because that was my first. That was my first choice. And In January of 2025, my therapist was like, we need to put you in a center. Like, this is. This is not okay. We've reached that point. And so I started with her looking at centers, recovery centers. Most of them are related to addiction. And the two I had picked, first of all, they cost a lot of money. When you don't have insurance. And I had already used up all of my savings that I had saved for my potential mat leave. That's like a whole other drama. No money, redlined, in debt. And then when I would have conversations, intake conversations, no one would guarantee that I wouldn't be put on meds. And that was my biggest fear. Like, I was like, I, I, I, I want to get better, but I don't want to get better like that. And at that point, my therapist just said, okay, you gotta quit work completely. You have to stop everything. You're gonna come see me every week. You're gonna do this, that, and this. And we created a very precise, detailed plan for three months. And she said, at the end of three months, if you're not better, you have to go. Like, you have to go. And we proceeded with that plan. And that was the first time. January 2025, I had a one client, two clients that were finishing at the beginning of the month. And then after that, I was. I had no clients. I had no business. I had nothing. I was in debt. No one really knew what I was going through except for a handful, like two or three friends. And I went on that healing journey. And what happened really surprised me because I've been in some form of therapy, coaching, personal development, plant medicine work since 2006, consistently working through things. But from 2006 to 2025, January 2025, it's always been about, what's wrong with me, how can I make myself better in 2025 was the first time where I saw my family constellation, the dynamics and the dynamics, dynamics that were still playing. It was the first time where I could see not just my responsibility, because as a, as someone who deals with, who has grown up with narcissistic manipulation, gaslighting, victims of, of that type of trauma tend to always internalize everything and make everything about them being wrong. But then you take that and you insert me in the personal development world, where you'll be served platitudes like, well, there's always three sides to a story, and what are you taking responsibility for? So it almost, like, further ingrained that belief that something is wrong with me. This is my responsibility. Also, like spiritual platitude that tells you, but you chose this life, and you chose these parents, and you chose this. It's like, I get what you're saying on a spiritual level, but I didn't choose for my dog to be killed in this way. I didn't choose to be sued in this way. I didn't choose to be abused in this way. I didn't choose this. I get it. On a very human level, I didn't choose this. And that human is hurting right now. And so 2025 became the first time that I started facing acknowledging the relational dynamics that I have been raised in, and then also acknowledging how I have replayed those in friendships and with acquaintances, with. With peers in my business. You know, I wrote a book on potent leadership where there's a chapter on significance and talking about how we chase significance. Yet now I can look back and be like, oh, I was kind of chasing, like, some form of respect because I don't have my dad's respect. So my entire business became about gaining respect. And yeah, so last year was pivotal for me. And having to let go of my business at that point, that was what helped me let go of the last shreds of identity that I have designed carefully to. To be that image that I was. So last year was super pivotal for me in really facing who I am beneath the trauma, beneath the identities, beneath the Personas, and stepping deeper into a life that feels more aligned with who I am without the judgments, perceptions, and projections of other people. And then there's like a lot of other stuff wound in there. Like I said, there's just like all this, you know, over coupled, you know, not having a baby. And now I can. I can't have babies. Going through really, really early menopause and having all of my hormones completely shut down. Having to fight the medical system to get the testing I needed, like, being an advocate for myself. During that time, they couldn't draw blood because my body was in such a state of constriction and shut down that my vascular system was shutting down, my kidneys were shutting down. So I actually had to go see a nephrologist because kidney disease runs in my family and my kidney numbers were, like, beyond low. So there was all this stuff happening in the background where I've always believed that our emotional trauma is what really leads to the physical. But when you're in such a deep state of trauma, it's really hard. It's really hard to start. Like, what do you focus on first? Because everything is falling apart. Joel 00:27:05.740 - 00:27:42.830 Yeah, I really, really appreciate you sharing that. I'm so sorry that you've experienced this. It's absolutely horrific beyond belief. One thing I want to address is earlier you said, you know, some people would be like, oh, but it's just a dog. I know Erasmus has, you know, real deep kinship with his pets as well. And, like, his dog. So I'm curious if you two could kind of speak into that for those that, you know, would so easily brush that as, oh, it's just a pet or it's just a dog kind of thing. Maybe you're asmos you kick us off. Ruby 00:27:44.200 - 00:27:44.360 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:27:44.360 - 00:29:32.230 I mean, even just you saying that and is, is emotional for me. And I think it's one of the reasons why I think we connected during that time and, you know, your story hit me on such a deep level, is because I, I'm not a father in the traditional sense, and I love animals, and I love the innocence and the sweetness and, you know, we have five cats and a dog. My mom has her dog. Like, our cat disappeared for eight days. And I was, as I was becoming a new cat dad and realizing, like, about cats and not really knowing. Those eight days were, were some of the hardest days of my life. So I like. And that doesn't even compare to what you navigated. And it's like, I, I just don't think people understand, like, when you're that closely connected to an animal. And, and it's tough, it's tough to, like, unless a person has that experience, they don't understand the experience. Yes. A dog is not a human. There's differences, and there's not at the same time, because it's the relationship, it's the care, it's the love. And, and yeah, I mean, I, I, I can't tell you how much my heart was with you during the time that you were going through this. And as an acquaintance, sl. Friend. Yeah. My heart broke for you. And I, I wish there was more ways I could help. And yeah, I, I wish this on no one. I wish this on no one. What you went through, losing an animal, losing that connection, yeah, it's, it's, it's tough. It's tough. Ruby 00:29:33.040 - 00:31:16.900 Yeah. I think the thing that people who don't have animals, what they don't realize is the, the connection and the unconditional love. It's a type of love that you don't get from other humans. And truthfully, we spend more time with our animals than we do with other humans, especially if it's a dog or cat living in our house, we tend to spend more time with that animal. And the part that really shook me was the carelessness of other people towards the animals and then uncovering how the laws really don't protect them. Like, that was a whole other shock to my system because that led me down the legal route and the advocacy route and learning about the Laws in Texas and other states. And. And just it opened my eyes to the black market that dogs are involved in people, because one of the rumors was they sold my dog. And so I had to look into that as well. And it just led me to this deep underworld of dogs that are stolen and resold, or dogs that are stolen and then sold for meat or used in the drug cartels. And this is a real thing. Like, there's a tie between dogs and the drug cartel in Texas because of where the border is with Mexico. And I think that most people don't get that because they don't have that connection with animals. But it was really, for me, the human carelessness around it that felt the deepest, like the most painful is like, how. How. How do you do that? How do you feel that way about these animals? I don't understand. Yerasimos 00:31:17.850 - 00:31:50.680 Yeah, there's such. There's such innocence there. You know, I know we talk about the kids and hurting kids, and it's like on some level, animals have that purity in that innocence. I mean, even, like, you know, you see it in movie shows, like, or TV shows or movies. Like, if a young character is hurting animals, it's always like, something's wrong with you. Like, we. We need to take them in to see a therapist. They may be psychopathic, you know, because it's like, how could you. Like you said, how could you do that, you know, to these. Or. Or even allow that to happen, you know, to these sweet, innocent beings? Ruby 00:31:53.400 - 00:34:29.679 Yeah, yeah. And jumping into advocacy work at that same time. Because at that time, I think a few months before me, Poncho, who was a dog, a black lab, he went, quote, unquote, missing from a dog care provider. And then right after me, Indy went missing from a dog boarding facility. This is all in Texas. And right after that, Izzy went missing from a dog trainer. All of these were horrific stories. Poncho's family got video footage from every neighbor and saw video footage of them carrying a large, large wrapped thing into the truck and coming back, and it wasn't there. Indy was later found in. Buried in the ground of a dog boarding facility. And the only reason they could dig up the ground was because someone called in and shared that they actually sell drugs. So they. The police couldn't dig because of the actual dog. They got the warrant to investigate drugs. So that's how Indy's body was found. And then Izzy, the trainer just said that Izzy jumped out of his truck or something while he was parked at Home Depot. But what was believed to have happened is Izzy died from heat stroke and he got rid of the body. So all these things happened at the same time. And that opened my eyes to, like, this. There's actually a greater problem here. And then that's why I started fighting to get the laws changed, which we did. We were successful. I went to the state capitol, I fought on behalf of Poncho's family because they led the new laws. So I joined forces with them. And now in the state of Texas, criminal negligence is part of the animal cruelty law. So if a dog is injured or killed due to the negligence of a dog care provider, then they can be. That will be pursued in. As a criminal act versus civil. So there, the repercussions are much stronger. And people are already using that law. So that makes me happy. But, you know, and my life, it turned out different and amazing, and yet like a little being had to die because of it, you know, like, so it. There's. There's grief, there's mixed emotions. On a higher level, I get it. And on a human level, I'm like, what the. Like, really? You know? Joel 00:34:30.319 - 00:34:30.719 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:34:30.719 - 00:34:36.159 So, yeah, I think I. I have the issue. And I want you to share your thoughts on this. Ruby 00:34:36.159 - 00:34:36.479 Why? Yerasimos 00:34:36.479 - 00:36:00.560 Certain people just go straight to the platitudes, you know, like, it's like they can't be with the humanness. They don't understand the human level of a thing. And it's. They want to go directly to the place that maybe a person will get to a few years later of understanding something in a bigger picture and the lesson or whatever, but it's just this, this go to. To, like, this is how I'm going to provide comfort to this person by telling them, oh, well, you know, it happens for a reason. And you know, this. You. You know, on some level, you, like you said earlier, you know, you wanted this to happen, or you chose this for. For your greater, greater unravel, unweight awakening and things of that nature. And that kind of shit makes my blood boil, you know? You know, you live in Austin, I'm in la. This, This. I don't want to call it a virus, nutritionalism, but this, this thing that has just come through the spiritual communities. And like, I, Even when I use that word, I spiritual, I'm always like, I have to make it like a face when I say or put air quotes around it because it's like, it's further. It's further from spirituality in my. From my view than anything, you know, this, this. This le. This type of behavior, this. This ignorance of. Of being Human, as if like something's wrong with being human and having emotions. Ruby 00:36:00.560 - 00:37:09.980 And going through so bypassing the human experience, you know. And I'll give you an example. And this, this happened like a month after, maybe three weeks after Leia and two friends came over to comfort me. And we're sit. I remember this vividly. We're sitting at the, my dining room table and one of them is a very, very well known influencer, coach, helps women through trauma, blah blah, blah, all those things. And she looks at me and I'm bawling my eyes out. And this is like when I'm in the thick of the investigation, really, I'm realizing I'm being lied to. Like. And she looks at me and she says, well Ruby, what's the silver lining? And I looked at her and I was like, I want to punch you in the face. I didn't say that, but I really wanted to. And that was the end of our friendship for me. And I understand it's very uncomfortable to sit with someone who's grieving like that. Very uncomfortable. And I think that unless you have either gone through something like that or are trained to hold space in that way, because even if someone's gone through something like that, that doesn't mean that they can actually sit through. Yerasimos 00:37:11.020 - 00:37:12.380 Most people don't have the capacity. Ruby 00:37:13.420 - 00:39:03.600 It's a capacity thing, I will say through this experience. I mean, I started my somatic experiencing journey through this experience. I'm actually graduating in a, in two months. And that that training plus this experience has completely reshaped the way that I work, the way that I serve, the way that I show up the, the person that I am because I have this depth of compassion that, you know, I don't question people when they're going through something. I get curious instead, you know, And I think that that's what's really lacking in the transformational space is that a lot of people are leading in ways that are very rigid and bypass the actual human experience, which is complex, you know, the complexities of our emotions. Just that alone is a lot. And so this for me has felt like a refinement of sorts, I guess with my gifts and, and how I show up for, for the people I love and, and the people I serve. And after experiencing how I don't want to be held, it really made things clear on what's needed in a, in a human to human relationship and how we can show up for each other in ways that feel more supportive and like we're actually seeing the other person and not just trying to save them, fix them, bring them out of their. Whatever it is that they're going through. Because we really, most of the time, just need to go through the process that we're being put through. Joel 00:39:06.800 - 00:39:36.730 This may be a difficult question to answer, but I'm just curious. Do you think Ruby today would have responded any differently to the same situation than Ruby at the time that it happened? Because it just may highlight your own evolution in that. Is there anything that you think that you would have responded to differently, whether it's on an internal level or an external level? Ruby 00:39:37.130 - 00:40:14.130 I think I would have followed my intuition a little better at the beginning, because at the beginning, I. It was almost like I wanted to believe the dog sitters. And even our investigating officer was like, are you sure? Like, she. She was the first person to plant that seed of are you sure? Because she had seen so much. I would have listened. And mind you, at the time, I was recording all of our conversations with my per. With my phone in my purse, like, I was doing all the things I. I needed to do to protect myself. Joel 00:40:14.450 - 00:40:15.010 Yeah. Ruby 00:40:15.250 - 00:40:39.410 But I wasn't really leading with the thing that I truly believed happened. And now, given what I've gone through, I feel like I listen to myself more. And that's because I have worked through a lot of the gaslighting trauma that led me to doubt myself a lot. So that would. That would probably be the only thing that. Joel 00:40:39.850 - 00:41:39.740 Yeah. No, I really appreciate you sharing that. It's an interesting thing, you know, like, intuition, because we. We get hits. We get strong senses about something that we may not have directly, you know, perceived yet. That's when, like, the whole gaslighting thing seems to be, like, most harmful is when we have these hits, and then somehow we're convinced that this. Our own knowing, in a sense, is wrong, because then it becomes this slippery slope to like, oh, what else do I have? These hits and these knowings and these senses about where all of a sudden now sitting on shaky ground, you know, because I had such a strong instinct and impulse. Then all of a sudden, there's this force that's telling me, you know, that's. Don't. Don't go there, you know, that that's wrong. Things of that nature, you know, and then your own superpowers kind of become blinded to some degree. Ruby 00:41:41.180 - 00:41:59.180 It's. It's like I went from being the type of person who questioned myself all the time, as confident as I looked. I questioned myself a lot. And especially when I was put in a position where people didn't believe me. I mean, that was my biggest wound. I couldn't even tell you how many times I've probably said that to my husband. You don't believe me. Joel 00:41:59.740 - 00:42:00.220 Yeah. Ruby 00:42:01.150 - 00:42:18.830 And how many times I've said that in my life. And now I can really dig deep and reach into that place because I also don't want to just be completely blind to things and. And just blindly follow what I think is right. Joel 00:42:19.150 - 00:42:19.630 Yeah. Ruby 00:42:19.870 - 00:43:07.330 I feel like I've now developed this really healthy discernment and ability to connect to what I feel while also remaining curious about that and curious about what's being shared and come to a place that feels really grounded. And I never had that ability before. Like, I would feel an intuition, and then something would happen, and it would lead me in a different direction because I would feel like I was made to be wrong. So it's, It's. I'm not going to say that that process was easy. That was super hard. There are moments even now where I'm like, is this right? Is this. But I am able to connect to that place within me with a lot more ease than I have ever been. Joel 00:43:07.570 - 00:43:08.050 Yeah. Ruby 00:43:08.530 - 00:43:08.890 You're. Joel 00:43:08.890 - 00:43:10.450 You're a projector from memory, right? Ruby 00:43:11.170 - 00:43:11.650 Yeah. Joel 00:43:11.970 - 00:43:13.570 Are you splenic or emotional? Ruby 00:43:14.130 - 00:43:17.010 Emotional. Couldn't you tell? Yerasimos 00:43:17.090 - 00:43:20.400 Yeah. Yeah, I think I remembered that. Joel 00:43:22.000 - 00:43:22.480 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:43:23.760 - 00:43:30.560 Do you? Okay. It's four years after the fact we're sitting here now. Joel 00:43:30.720 - 00:43:31.200 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:43:31.440 - 00:44:32.750 Do you think that based on who you were, the type of person you were, the strength, the pushing through that, some type of experience like this, not saying exactly this, maybe quote, okay, not to throw a potato, but needed to happen in order for you to get to where you are now as opposed to something else. Like, again, I'm just trying to see after the fact. Like, as you sit there and you think about this, why this happened, why me? What, you know, going through the whole thing, like, as horrible as it was, like, I assume you're sitting here now and you're like, well, I like who I am. I like what I've been through. I like how I feel in my body. I love how I'm living my life. Do you think something that intense had to happen? The reason I also bring that up is because I asked this question to someone we had on the podcast who had been in the Nexium cult, and he had his own answer to it. And so I'm just curious, like, where around that question or that, that space, like, how are you feeling? Ruby 00:44:33.390 - 00:44:34.510 I feel that. Joel 00:44:34.510 - 00:44:34.830 That. Ruby 00:44:36.590 - 00:45:31.470 This was one way for it to happen. Knowing myself, I, I. It tends to take a lot of extremes for me to see things. Intensity. I mean, I'm. I'm. I've sat in over 100 ayahuasca ceremonies. That should tell you enough. But I think this could have happened in a multitude of ways. This is just the way it happened. And, I mean, that's really all I can say. It's like, I believe in God, and I. I would hate to say that God made this happen. I just. I feel that there were a number of other people's dharmas and fates that were involved, and you all just kind of converge in this one place, and that's what unfolded, and that's what led me here. And what's interesting is Laura Matsu, who you guys know. Joel 00:45:31.630 - 00:45:32.110 Yeah. Ruby 00:45:32.110 - 00:47:09.700 Yeah. So she's done my astrology reading since then. And what was interesting is, like, literally that week of Leia being killed, that week, all this lined up in my chart. I couldn't tell you because I'm not an astrologist, but the way she explained it was, like, all of these things lined up, and it was a time of, like, manipulation, lies, deception. Like, all this stuff just converged. And so this was just one way for it to happen. I believe that it could have happened in a number of different ways. This is the way it chose to unfold. And I do feel that I had a lot to do with where I've now ended up. My choice to. Okay, let me just. Okay, I. I'm going to choose to live. Okay. I'm going to choose to go to therapy. Okay. I'm going to choose to keep doing this. Okay. I'm going to choose to do what I can to heal my physical body. It was an accumulation of those choices that really led me to being here, living this life. And, like, my. My. My choice to accept what happened, accept all of the things that happened in that short time frame, and find ways to live beyond that in a life that looks very different than what I had envisioned. Yerasimos 00:47:12.260 - 00:47:13.940 Yeah. Thanks for answering that. Ruby 00:47:14.180 - 00:47:14.740 Yeah. Joel 00:47:17.300 - 00:47:30.700 What is your position now on, like, dog sitters? And what kind of vetting processes would you, like, recommend or advocate for if someone was to, you know, I'm just a no. Yeah. Ruby 00:47:31.180 - 00:48:23.040 Like, I am a no. Like, me and my husband have come to terms. Like, we accept that we're not gonna take any big trips, so we just travel within the U.S. like, wherever we can drive and take our dogs. That's where we travel to. And if that's our life for the next 10 years, that's our life for the next 10 years. I cannot fathom. Cannot fathom. And it's not just because I think if I. It was just my story, it'd be different, but because I chose the role of advocacy. And we started collecting stories, and people started coming to us on our website and sharing their stories. Like, I realized this isn't a thing that happens once in a while. This happens, like, every single day in the U.S. wow. Okay. And then with platforms like Rover, FYI, anyone listening? Rover is. They do not vet. They just check to see if you're a criminal record. That's their vetting process. But that is. Joel 00:48:23.120 - 00:48:24.960 Is that where you found that dog sitter through? Ruby 00:48:24.960 - 00:50:11.260 No, we found our dog sitter through next door, through neighbors. And what? We did a meet and greet. We did all the right things. We checked all the boxes. I did all the right things. What was unfortunate is the people who had bad experiences, whose dogs were attacked, they didn't file complaints. And we found out later. So, you know, I just. I don't trust anyone even. We moved to Montana, and I had to find a new groomer, but I really just started grooming our dogs myself. And it wasn't until I started butchering their cuts where I was like, okay, I need to find a groomer. And I found someone who actually listened to me. They're insured. It's a business. Like, all this stuff. They checked all the boxes, but then the biggest box that they checked were they listened to me and they heard me and all of my crazy requests. And now, you know, we have dog groomers. So that's great, but I don't. Never would I ever leave our dogs with anyone ever again. And when people ask me, who do you refer or recommend? I'm like, no one. Yeah, Because I heard stories. Some of the stories I collected were, we left our dog with our best friend, and our dog got out, and then it was killed by a car. Or like, we left our dog with our parents and then it drowned in the pool. Like, these are all things that happen. So no one's going to take care of your dog like you do. That's just a fact, you know? And when I can't even fathom, like, if I had kids, I can't even fathom, like, I trust their kids with other humans. I can't. I can't. After everything I heard, I just can't do it. And I think that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yerasimos 00:50:11.260 - 00:50:20.900 I mean, yeah, no, I hear you. Like, I. The deep love I have for animals sometimes I'm like, I don't understand how parents do it, you know, obviously Joel has three young girls. Ruby 00:50:20.900 - 00:50:21.420 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:50:21.740 - 00:50:48.110 Like, I just feel like my heart would just explode, you know, on those levels. And yeah, yeah, like we, we take everywhere we, we take our dog everywhere we go. But there are times where like we, we haven't and people's comment to our home and stay at our home. We won't leave our dog anywhere they stay at our home. But even then I'm like, I'm messaging non stop. I'm like double checking like everything and it's like. But I get it, you know, of course. Joel 00:50:49.310 - 00:51:08.210 And like now that like you, like, you say that and I don't mean to shame anyone when I say this, but there's people who leave their babies at daycare from six months old. Like, I just can't even wrap my head around that scenario, you know, and it's hard. Ruby 00:51:08.210 - 00:51:37.060 It's like, it's like anything that we ever talk about, you don't know until you've actually gone through it. You know, it's like I remember in our, in our first episode we recorded together, we talked about everything that was happening in the world and, and like, why I actually started not trusting a big pharma was because I actually was burned by it. So sometimes for people it's, it's not until you go through something that you start to see the shadow side of something. And I think just, that's just human nature. Yerasimos 00:51:37.380 - 00:52:27.460 Well, and also too, from the personal development standpoint, like there's that reality too. Like you can read all the books, you can take all the workshops, you can do the things, but like the experience itself has its own life. Like you can be, oh, I've done the parts work and I've done this and I've done nervous system work. But then you're broken up with for the first time and you've never experienced being broken up with, then like that's going to have its own fucking thing. Or if someone close to you dies and it's like these are these little mini rites of passage that absolutely suck. And yet all the reading, all the podcasts, all that it can support you, but it's not the thing. Like, the thing is having the experience and being with the experience to the degree that you can and, and allowing life to life on some level. I don't know, like, that's what it seems like to me. Ruby 00:52:28.100 - 00:53:15.350 Yeah, I, I think an example of that would have been the complex PTSD that I was experiencing. Never. I mean, you wouldn't have ever thought that I had cptsd, but I was hiding it really well, you know, that just, it shaped my identity and who I was. And when I didn't have that identity to hold on to, all of a sudden I felt it and I was like, holy. This is, this is what they talk about. Like I'm experiencing all of these things. But I think when we go through something like that again, like, it allows us to be more human about the experience and become more relatable to other people going through the experience because I. The things that I can now understand and see and, and in here and recognize that have to do with the human experience. It's far greater than anything I've ever been able to relate to. Joel 00:53:15.590 - 00:53:15.990 Yeah. Ruby 00:53:15.990 - 00:53:32.470 Like, I feel so human these days. So human. I think I cry at least once a day. And not because I'm sad, there's just like, I cry when I'm grateful, I cry when I'm happy. Like there's like this humanness in me that I wasn't able to tap into because I had all these protective identities that were holding me together. Yerasimos 00:53:33.530 - 00:55:15.360 So, yeah, it's like the roomy quote, you got to keep breaking your heart so it could open and so these little heartbreaks that occur, you know, like. But the, or the huge ones that just break you open and connect you to something deep that wasn't there before because of all the, the different mechanisms or the different parts that are protecting us, etc. Yeah, yeah. Like, I say this to people where I'm like, you know, you do a certain level of work. I'm like, I don't. Like, back in the days when I was more identified with being a people pleaser, I lived in more of a one season kind of world. Yay. Okay, cool. Let's all do our thing. But like now, like, I totally hear you when you say, like, oh, I like tear up or cry once a day. Like there's this, this depth and this fluidity and flexibility of human experience that you move through that feels so rich and so connected and yet like, I want to say unstable, but on some level it just feels deeper, you know, it feels deeper even though you're like, oh, I've done all this work and yet that work has brought me to being able to put my arm around all these different elements of who I am and build some sort of conscious relationship with these different aspects of self. And that's what I think. Like all this stuff we talk about, the personal development, work, healing, like, it has to be moving you towards this, towards embracing your humanness, towards connecting, towards understanding the contradictions that exist within and being with that and having capacity for it, because then you can really be with other people because you know that deep within yourself and you can sit them and sit there and be like. And be like, oh, I understand. You don't have to say it, but you could just feel you understand what they're going through as opposed to just being like, oh, let me throw some wise words out at them. Ruby 00:55:15.599 - 00:55:16.360 What did, what did. Joel 00:55:16.360 - 00:55:19.840 What did that coaching certification tell me I should say at this point in time? Ruby 00:55:22.080 - 00:55:56.730 Exactly. And it's like, you know, people focus so much on healing, but what I've learned through this experience is that this journey really connected me to my aliveness. And then that's what my work has now become. It's like, I don't want to help you heal your trauma and to help you feel alive because how many of us are just kind of walking through life saying the right things, doing the right things, wearing identities that are easy on the eyes, yet so disconnected from what makes us feel alive? Yerasimos 00:55:57.370 - 00:56:24.550 Yeah. And I feel like also people are looking for that next panacea that's going to fix them and heal them. And, like, now I don't have to feel the things or do those things when it's like, I don't think that's it, you know, and that's why, you know, you bring up, you know, plant medicine before. And that's one of the issues I have with that community, you know, is that, like, oh, if I just do another ceremony, I'm going to be what, healed, you know, And I think there's some value to it for certain people, but I think in some cases it's a crutch. But. Joel 00:56:24.550 - 00:56:38.590 And also, like, how are all those plant medicine ceremonies going to support you when something as tragic as what you experienced happens? I mean, I want to look back to my ayahuasca insights and like, oh, now I'm going to apply this to this horrific thing which I can't escape. Ruby 00:56:39.230 - 01:00:23.930 And it doesn't work that way. I mean, I. That happened June 2022. And in November 2022, I went back to Peru. I went to Peru in May 2022, came back, and then that happened. And then in November, I went again to do a diet, and I was away for three weeks. And actually, I did have a vision one night, and it was. And again, this is like, while I was still fighting with what actually really happened. And ayahuasca showed me my dog's face decomposing, and I was just like, wow. And I remember waking up the next day and kind of I journaled about it and then I left it. That was my last diet in Peru. I felt like I closed out with my maestro. And then a couple years later I closed out with my tribe in the US I started seeing the shadow side of that space, the power, the ego. I mean, the healing space altogether. Whether it's coaching, mentoring, you know, plant medicines, breath work, all the things, all the modalities, it is a really gnarly space to be in because people get wrapped up in their ego once it's made into a business and you get wrapped up in the shadow side. And if anything, the last few years have really highlighted that for me as well because of other things that unfolded. But me being able to step away from that scene long enough to actually observe it and recognize all of the issues going on and the lack of integrity and how it's become one big show, you know, one big performance, one big race towards a sense of catharsis. And with SC Somatic experiencing, so being in my three year program, but also receiving se work and realizing that true trauma healing is a, a sequence of very subtle shifts because we don't want to override the system, we don't want to push the system. We just want to work within the capacity that someone has. And as someone going through what I went through, my capacity had like gone down, way down 1/100th of what I had. But through all of these tiny subtle shifts, I came to this place. And so as someone who used to facilitate medicine and, and facilitate cathartic experiences, I now really understand that healing work and transformative work truly happens in these subtle shifts where we're meeting the edges of our capacity and slowly pushing them out while building resilience in a way that our bodies can tolerate versus pushing through, blasting through our capacity, overriding what our system needs. I mean, cathartic experiences create a really good feeling in the moment, but it's, it's not going to create longevity in the transformation and in the healing, I can assure you. I mean, someone who sat in over a hundred ayahuasca ceremonies, I needed a lot of therapy after that, you know, like, it's just, I feel like the entire healing space gets wrapped up in the catharsis and the quick fixes and the like, you know, you got to push through and heal this one really. It's in the slowness. It feels like molasses when you're going through it. But that's what leads to lasting transformative change. Yerasimos 01:00:24.730 - 01:00:26.490 Yeah, well said. Joel 01:00:26.570 - 01:00:36.970 Yeah, I really Recommend people check out our podcast called the Dark side of Ayahuasca with Amberly Sky. We go deep into, you know, her experiences in that world as well. It's its own monster. Yerasimos 01:00:37.290 - 01:01:26.430 It is. And again, I'm not going to be sitting here and say, like, no one should ever do this at any point in their life. But again, I think it's beyond, it's important to be mindful of all of it, of both sides. I mean, my wife has worked with a lot of people who, not in plant medicine, but who come to her after doing a lot of plant medicine for support, you know, nervous system support. And it's like, it's a real thing. That's it. I mean, that's, that's what I, I say to people. Just be mindful. And if you're going in for the one thing that you think is going to fix everything, like, it's, it's not about that, you know, and so I, I, I appreciate how you eloquently shared what's important, you know, like moving through things slowly and pushing just pasture, just, just building capacity little by little. And then what impact does that have? You know, the compounding effect of all those little micro movements outwards. Ruby 01:01:27.870 - 01:01:42.220 Yeah. And I wouldn't be who I am without all those ceremonies and diets. You know, Like, I'm grateful for my time and my journey with the medicines. And I know that not everyone would have come out the other side the way I did. Joel 01:01:42.780 - 01:01:43.260 Yeah. Ruby 01:01:43.260 - 01:01:45.820 You know? Yeah. Joel 01:01:46.620 - 01:02:26.940 It's just interesting, like, even, like this whole realm of, like, healing, you know, it's like, like. Isn't healing just another word for, like, growth? Like, in a sense. And like, growth is like something that happens, like, over a lifetime, like, just like through being engaged with life. Yep. We go through these phases in our life where it's like, I need to heal now. This is a healing thing. I need to do healing work, you know, as if I'm going to enter into work for like 10 weeks or six months or a year or two years, then I don't need to do that anymore. It's like, that's just like life offers you all of that if you just engage with life. Ruby 01:02:27.020 - 01:02:33.430 I think sincerely, and I think people associate healing with something's wrong with you. Joel 01:02:33.670 - 01:02:34.150 Yeah. Ruby 01:02:34.310 - 01:03:02.550 Because I have that argument a lot with people, is that I think, I believe that every day we're alive is an opportunity to continue healing, that we are always healing, because every day that we're alive, we also can be subjected to more trauma. But healing isn't A bad thing. It doesn't mean that we're not whole. It doesn't mean that we're not broken. It just means that we are continuing to fine tune our process. You know, that's really it. And, and there's beauty in that. There's beauty in being able to grow and evolve. Joel 01:03:04.070 - 01:03:04.630 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:03:04.630 - 01:03:05.110 Yeah. Joel 01:03:08.870 - 01:03:10.790 Being, being alive is risky business. Ruby 01:03:11.510 - 01:03:31.040 Yeah. But being alive feels so good, I can tell you. Like, I, I, I've never felt more alive than I do these days, truly. And I've never felt more alive than I do with the horses. Like sitting on a log and just being surrounded by horseshit. Yerasimos 01:03:32.080 - 01:03:32.440 Yeah. Ruby 01:03:32.440 - 01:04:20.700 Seeing the horse, like there's just, like, there's an aliveness I don't think I was ever able to tap into because I was too scared to, you know, like the little girl in me, the one that had been really wounded, like there, there was a trauma associated with being alive. And I think a lot of people have that trauma of like, if I, if I am alive, then I'm going to feel all the things I don't want to feel. It's why we numb out. Right. It's why we create these protective identities. And now without that, yes, I feel more vulnerable and more naked and more like easily hurt and, you know, easily activated. Feel my feelings to a different degree, but I also feel more alive and, and that is what feels really good. Yeah. Yerasimos 01:04:21.420 - 01:04:54.130 Well, you brought up. What I wanted to move the conversation towards was horses. I'm seeing the painting behind you and just from social media, I know that you have a deep relationship with horses and of course you do work with horses. So can you talk about horses and the magic of horses? I have a neighbor who has a bunch of horses. They, they have horses and they work with horses. And so I, they're majestic animals and so I'd love for you to talk about them and what, what supports healing and just being with horses. What it's done to you. Ruby 01:04:55.890 - 01:14:31.160 Yeah. In 2023, I think it was like seven months after Leia, I realized that I wanted to put my energy towards something. And being of a Sikh background, our religion is based on, on seva. So senseless service, selfless service. And I have volunteered my entire life, truly. And not the type of volunteering we have to prove it on social media. I've just volunteered my entire life for different causes and I really needed to step away from people. And so my first thought was, I'll volunteer with dogs. But that felt too painful to volunteer at the shelter. So I went to horses and I Started volunteering at a therapeutic ranch in just outside of Austin. And I volunteered specifically for the horse feed and care team because I didn't want to deal with people. And that was like, my first real, deeper, immersive experience with horses. I'd always been drawn to them my entire life. I was the one that would stop the car and pet a horse over a fence line. Like, that was just me. But this really put me in relationship with them. And I would notice how I would feel around them. I noticed how they could sense what you're feeling. So even if I went there and I was having a really hard day, and I would pretend because I, you know, I was working with other volunteers or staff, and I would pretend to be okay, the. The pretending wasn't okay with the horses. And what I learned as I continued to study horse behavior and psychology is that horses really appreciate congruence because as prey animals, they are built differently than us, and so they are constantly scanning and seeking out for danger. So when a human approaches and, for example, you're sad, but you're smiling, there is an incongruence there, which to them translates to, you know, this doesn't feel safe because they're sensing something, but witnessing something else. And so the horses wouldn't really want to engage with me when I would do that. But if I was mucking a stall and a horse is in there and I started crying, it was like a totally different experience. Like, I really felt their presence with me. That experience let open my eyes to the world of horses. And I will say some therapeutic centers that are actually like organizations, like, being careful with my words, that are organizations, and they have like a board, they've got a appease a certain, you know, financial goals and things like that. And so a lot of times horses are overworked, and I could sense that. But while during my time there, there were so many examples I could give you where I would tell one of the staff members, you know, like, so and so is having a hoof problem, or so and so is. Is dealing with this, because the horses would communicate with me. And I felt like such a crazy person saying this, but I'm like, I cannot just not tell you. And it would be right. They'd be like, oh, wow. To the point where one of our horses had to be put down and. And the owner had actually come to me and said, can you ask her if she's ready? So that was my first real immersive experience with horses. From there, I got invited to work at another ranch outside of Texas, where I could explore my own modality that I was sort of envisioning with the horses on this land, with this woman's horses. And it was a small herd of three, plus a mini donkey. And that's where Equia was formed. And Equia is really. It's like equine assisted somatic work, but the horses are not responsible for anything. And I want to emphasize that I feel that a lot of equine modalities are still using horses in a way that feels traumatic. And if we're dealing with someone's trauma, I don't want to have the horse going through. Like, if I'm trying to get a person to stop overriding their system, why am I going to put a horse in a position where they have to override their system? And so much of the horse world does that. They're teaching horses to override their systems. An example is like horses that are used to break up crowds, crowd control horses, you're literally training the horse to push through a crowd, which is the exact opposite of their defense mechanisms. Like a horse's number one mechanism when they are faced with danger is flee. That. That is what they do. They flee. They're not going to sit there and fight. That is not their first response. And so these horses that do crowd control are taught, trained, broken, quote, unquote, broken to the point where they will push through a crowd. So that was what I was trying to avoid when I created Equia, which meant I had to work with specific types of herds that are not on leads, that are not on halters, that had land to roam, that had free choice to come in and out as they please. And the result became something inexplainable. I would work with my clients in one area, and then the horses come in and they witness. And when things feel deeply overwhelming or incongruent to them, they. They leave and they come back. And then the human being in the experience is able to notice the horse is almost like a reflection of what they're experiencing internally. And it becomes this fully immersive experience for everyone involved. And it just blew my mind, the work I did there. And when I moved to Montana, thankfully, I have a mentor here, and she boards horses, and she's known as the. The elder horse whisperer because she has a herd of elders. I mean, a lot of the horses There are over 20 years old, and she's allowed me to do work there, But I've also been able to learn from her hands on. Because now I'm in Montana and I can work with her. Standing on her property is how I found our property. Standing on her property is how I found my horse. Like so much has happened because of this. And working with these horses now, you know, three, four days a week, there's just, I know why, like everyone's wondering why is there such a rise in, in horse popularity and all these women are going to horses. Well, it's because again, like as prey animals, they lack that prefrontal cortex that we have to be able, the meaning making part of our brain. Like that creates a narrative, creates a story. They don't have that. And so their responses and how they react and respond to the world is extremely sincere. A horse will never, ever, ever lie to you. They, they don't even have the ability to lie. So what you're seeing is the most sincere representation of, of a reflection of what is going on internally. And I think that is what brings people in. Because when you're in front of a horse and you let yourself be seen, like you just drop the mask and let yourself be seen. The way that they approach you and see you is, is a feeling that is indescribable. Like they really see you and you know that they're not judging you. They're not sitting there making up a story about you. They just see you. And you know, I got my first horse there. His name is Quiz and he's a gypsy banner former show horse, 8 years old and very much acts like an 8 year old. But he's amazing and he's taught me so much. And he brought forth my second horse, Mojo. And Mojo is 21 years old and they're best friends and it's just been like the greatest gift to work with them. They've helped me, Quiz helped me feel joy again. And what was interesting is I would record videos of us together and look back and be like, wow, I don't remember the last time I've laughed like that. Like real belly, true, genuine laugh. I don't remember that. And even my husband would say to me when I'd come home from the ranch, like, it's so good to see you happy. And it just clicked. Like horses really helped me realize what it means to live a meaningful life. And for me these days it's joy. Like, I just want to keep experiencing joy and build my business around that. I don't want to sacrifice it. I don't want to wait until I get to a certain level in my business or certain income level to experience joy. I want to Experience joy every single day. I want to feel every single day. I want to experience meaningful things every single day. And I want to build my life and business around that. And so they've just. Yeah, they've been such a gift. And the fact that I have two now, I, I don't even like how, how am I here? And now we're like planning. I'm trying to plan a barn on our property. Like, what, what is, what is this life? What is this life? I live in Montana. I work with horses, and I'm planting a barn on our property and we're building our dream house. What? It's wild. Yerasimos 01:14:32.120 - 01:14:54.160 Yeah. What's that quote? You gotta, like, let go of the life that you plan to welcome in the one that's waiting for you, you know, Like, I mean, many of us, you know, we, we. We have these parts that kind of take over the psyche. And our whole life is just built from those places without understanding what, what else exists in there, what's waiting for us. So it's cool. I mean, yeah, I, I hear you. Ruby 01:14:54.320 - 01:15:10.640 And we don't, we don't know that we're doing that. That's the thing is, like, I really thought that I was living in this like, ultimate alignment, and now I see it's not that I was living misaligned, it's just that there were ways for me to live that feel more alive. Joel 01:15:11.840 - 01:15:12.240 Yeah. Ruby 01:15:12.240 - 01:16:04.820 Then, then how I was living and leading my work and business, you know, like there, there's, there's been more to that. And I think I will have to add this piece because I am really grateful to have a husband who has evolved on this track with me who, you know, was willing to let go of the identity of his wife being this hyper independent, like, money making, successful human to like, you know what? I can, I can step up and take care of the household and support you while you rebuild in a way that feels like it's honoring of your capacity. Because I just want to see you happy. Like, we've gone through this journey together and I feel like without him, I would most likely have gotten back into my hyper independence in a different way, you know? Yeah. Yerasimos 01:16:04.820 - 01:16:06.410 Shout out to your. To your man. Ruby 01:16:07.290 - 01:16:07.770 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:16:08.890 - 01:16:09.530 Much respect. Ruby 01:16:11.050 - 01:16:16.810 And he, he and I are both living on our sun lines now, so we're like ready to go here in Montana. Yerasimos 01:16:17.370 - 01:16:20.330 I'm sure it's just absolutely beautiful and stunning up there. Ruby 01:16:20.970 - 01:16:47.910 It is. It's unreal. I, I love it here. I love not being so tapped into that community. Not saying that that entire community sucks but again, there's, like, a sense of aliveness to, like, be friends with people who work with horses and ranchers and, like, just real people, people who aren't pretending to be anything, who don't ask you what your social media is. What's your Instagram handle? Who the cares? Yerasimos 01:16:47.910 - 01:16:48.670 I feel you. Joel 01:16:50.910 - 01:16:52.990 What's. What's your Instagram handle? How can people find you? Ruby 01:16:53.870 - 01:16:55.870 Yeah. Is this a serious question? Joel 01:16:56.750 - 01:16:57.390 Oh, yeah. Ruby 01:16:58.020 - 01:16:59.220 At who the cares? Yerasimos 01:16:59.220 - 01:17:10.780 Yeah. But again, this is life. This is the unfolding. This is the process. Like, we can sit here and talk about, like, oh, boy, this is what I. This is who I was then. And yet would you be who you are now if you weren't who you were then? Ruby 01:17:10.780 - 01:17:27.910 I'm grateful for everything that led me to this place, you know, I'm grateful for all of it, and all of it taught me something, you know, And. And I can say that. That spiritual thing right now because I've already been through and I'm on the other side of it, but it doesn't feel like that when you're in it, you know? Joel 01:17:30.550 - 01:17:32.070 It's like you found that silver lining. Ruby 01:17:35.350 - 01:17:39.590 Still not friends with that girl, though. But, yes, it's all about time and place. Yerasimos 01:17:39.670 - 01:17:43.630 All right. Timing. People need to understand the timing of when they say certain things. Ruby 01:17:43.630 - 01:17:54.990 Yeah. If someone is at their lowest low, please do not feed them a spiritual platitude. Just be there, sit next to them, Just listen, hear them, hold their hand. You actually don't need to say any words at all. Yerasimos 01:17:55.070 - 01:17:57.350 And close your mouth and hold the box of tissues. Okay. Joel 01:17:57.350 - 01:17:58.030 There you go. Yerasimos 01:18:00.110 - 01:18:00.510 Yeah. Ruby 01:18:00.510 - 01:18:01.630 And maybe feed them. Yerasimos 01:18:01.870 - 01:18:02.670 Yeah, that too. Ruby 01:18:02.830 - 01:18:04.110 That too. Yeah. Yerasimos 01:18:04.670 - 01:18:42.580 It is really, like, to speak about, like, men and women and dynamics. Like, I could speak for myself. Like, it's a process to learn. Like, don't just go in right away and fix a problem or try to fix a problem or tell someone what they need to do. Like, I have to continuously, kind of. I've worked through that. I can't say I'm always successful. Where it's just like those moments where it's just like, if I'm with my wife or if with someone else, just be there and just sit with them. And like, I would say almost every single time, like, later that day or the next day, they're just like, thank you so much. Meanwhile, I'm like, have this mantra in my head. Shut the up, Shut the up. Shut the up. Don't say anything. You know, like, to just in certain moments, because it's not what's needed. Ruby 01:18:42.900 - 01:19:36.050 Yeah. I will say, though, like, even for any man listening, my therapist, she's so great. When I would cry to her, being like, my husband doesn't understand, she'd be like, yeah, well, does he actually have the capacity to, like, she would just be up front, she's like, is that how he's built? He wants to solve a problem? And. And me acknowledging that and not trying to change him really helped us. You know, it was like him working through his stuff, but me also working through my stuff and not trying to get him to change in order to receive the type of support I needed. And really just understanding this is how he can support. And I can appreciate this. I can get everything else from my therapist and for my, you know, one or two close girlfriends. And that's good. And that needs to be good enough, you know, because otherwise I'm just chasing something that doesn't make a good point. Yerasimos 01:19:36.450 - 01:19:36.930 Yeah,. Ruby 01:19:39.250 - 01:21:03.570 Yeah. I mean, we are. Maybe there's going to be some women that are pissed off about this, but we are fundamentally different. Like, fundamentally, there are different a lot. There are physiological differences, hormonal differences. As a woman in her mid-40s now, having gone through early menopause and like, complete capacity shift and how I operate, energy levels, all of it, I understand that it is not healthy for a woman to be hyper independent because you will hit this plateau where your body is physiologically not able to hold that. And that doesn't mean that you're not good enough. It just means that this is the limit of your physiology. And so I feel very comfortable in where I'm at in my marriage and letting my husband take the wheel with the finances again, and having that gift of being able to grow my business from the ground up on a foundation that feels deeply intentional and aligned with my current capacity. Like, that is a gift to be able to do it this way and not do it from this place of scarcity, of feeling like I need to rush to get to where I was, because, you know, where I'm going now is going to look so different than where it was. I already know it. Joel 01:21:05.010 - 01:21:25.830 Yeah, yeah, I hear you. And then even then, it's like, but maybe there are some women that are built to be hyper independent that can hold it, that are men's. You know, maybe there's like a biological baseline, you know, and there's a general sense, but there's individuals as well, even within genders, you know. Ruby 01:21:26.790 - 01:22:18.410 Yeah, I just, I feel like I've come to a place in my human journey where I believe that there's Only so much we can do and hold on our own, that we truly are tribal in nature, that we are meant to heal in relationship. There's healing that we do on our own, for sure. There's a need for solitude, for sure. And we heal in relationship, we heal in community. We do better in community and partnerships. And with everything that has unfolded in our world, you know, in the last six years, and the disconnection, the, the actual human need for us to come back together in community, in relationship is going to continue to become louder. And I mean, people are already feeling it and experiencing it and desiring it. Joel 01:22:18.850 - 01:22:19.090 Yeah. Ruby 01:22:19.090 - 01:22:44.050 More in person, more touch, more like being able to, to feel someone's energetic field in front of you versus on a screen. Like, these are all things that are, that are becoming more apparent, and these are all things that I'm also weaving into my work today is, is just taking that human component into consideration. Yerasimos 01:22:47.100 - 01:23:05.740 I couldn't agree more. I think connection and community in person and hugs and dancing and laughing is required. It's, it's, it's our history. It's, it's our birthright. It's what we're meant to do. And yes, I'm grateful for technology, but there's no replacement. Joel 01:23:05.980 - 01:23:06.340 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:23:06.340 - 01:23:11.180 For being with someone and, and being in physical contact with them. Joel 01:23:12.620 - 01:23:12.940 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:23:12.940 - 01:23:30.780 And like so much of what we've navigated and gone through and the traumas we've experienced are relational. It's in relationship that that happens. So to think you're just gonna go off to a mountain and sit there and meditate all day, and that's going to solve all your problems. I don't think it's going to solve all your problems. And I think we need to come back in connection with one another and. Joel 01:23:33.100 - 01:23:33.580 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:23:33.580 - 01:23:35.260 So thank you so much. Ruby 01:23:36.060 - 01:23:37.350 Yeah, thank you. Joel 01:23:37.670 - 01:23:51.590 Yeah. The problem is, I think that so many people feel wounded by the communities that they found themselves in, you know, but I think you have to at some point risk finding the right group of people that can hold you in the right way, which is part of the process. Ruby 01:23:53.430 - 01:25:26.920 Yeah, that is actually really true. I, I, There's a thread in, in the clients that come to me, which is interesting. And a lot of them have experienced big wounds and other coaching programs, masterminds, containers, communities, ceremonies, and it's wild how prevalent that is. You know, people saying that they stand for community, but what they're creating within their communities is far from, you know, the sense of community. And I think that that happens when we are afraid to connect to our own humanity and we feel like we have to lead or facilitate from this place, place that is elevated or detached from everyone else. Yeah, but when you can meet an. I mean, I cannot say this enough. When you can meet another human on a very human level and are willing to see them and be curious about them, so much healing can take place for both people. I, I really, I mean I, I don't feel like I've drifted that far off brand, but I feel like my brand is different. But the humanity piece is always going to be there, you know, Like I feel like a lot of people are lacking their humanity and if anything, this is an invitation. Whatever trauma you go through, whatever event that changes you, it's just an invitation to reconnect to your humanity, your aliveness. Remembering who you are, remembering why you're here, remembering why we, we are essentially the same, you know, and, and meeting each other from that place. So yeah, I think, I feel like that's a whole other conversation we could have for like three hours. Joel 01:25:27.640 - 01:25:50.510 Sure. Yeah, sure. Well, we appreciate you. We appreciate you being here and sharing your story and sharing your journey. The highs, the lows, in betweens, all of it. So thank you so much. All that being said, Ruby, how can people connect with you, find you, reach out to you? Where would you like to direct our audience at this point in time? Ruby 01:25:52.100 - 01:26:00.660 Well, I just launched a new website so I'm pretty excited about that. Ruby fraymon.com. It's not free man, it's Fremont. Joel 01:26:00.660 - 01:26:02.420 I apologize my mispronunciation. Ruby 01:26:02.580 - 01:26:50.510 Oh no, it's okay. A lot of people get wrong but my website holds everything and I'm most active on substack and on Instagram, Ruby Fremont and all those links and more will be in the show notes. But you know, if you are listening and you can resonate with something or it's brought you some form of insight, I'd love to hear from you. Please send me a DM on Instagram I. At Ruby Fremont. Ruby Dot Fraymond. Sorry. At Ruby Fremont. And you know, if you're interested in exploring the possibility of working together, journeying together, just head to my website. That's the best place to learn about my upcoming offerings and retreats in Montana. Yerasimos 01:26:51.150 - 01:27:06.590 Ruby, thank you so much. So happy we're able to make this happen. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate you. I'm so excited for this new path that you're on and your new life in Montana and I look forward to seeing more photos of you and horses. Ruby 01:27:06.990 - 01:27:29.700 Thank you. Thank you guys so much for having me on and just asking the question that you asked and approaching my experience with so much love and compassion. Like, I really, really feel that. And I just always have had so much respect for the work that you guys are doing in the world and just a lot of respect for how you held space today. And thank you. Joel 01:27:30.100 - 01:27:34.580 No, thank you. Thank you so much. Everyone else, thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.