Sophie Fletcher, PhD The Significance of Touch

[Speaker 3] (0:14 - 2:31) Hey guys, welcome to episode number five of Here for the Truth. To the new listeners, welcome. Here for the Truth is a podcast by myself, Joel Rafiti, and my co-host here, Yerasmus Stylianesis, where we explore the stories behind the truth. We get to the bottom of the journeys of the truth seeker. What it took for them to get from A to B. Topics we explore are self-knowledge, health and freedom, philosophy, psychology, and all things truth. My background is, I'm a conscious hip-hop artist. I've written songs for 10, 15 years and put them out there. I'm also a student of the mystery school tradition of esoteric arts, tarot, astrology, divination, and astrotheology. My co-host here, my brother, Yerasmus, he's a holistic health practitioner and a human design guide. He works with motivated individuals around the world to help them understand and connect to their true nature more deeply. Without further ado, our very special guest for today's episode, Dr. Sophie Fletcher, PhD. Sophie is dedicated to helping people gain a greater freedom within themselves throughout all levels of their being. Sophie grew up as part of a spiritual community. She spent most of her life wanting to transcend the body until after earning her first master's degree in spiritual psychology, she then realized that the body actually held the key to true healing. Sophie went on to do a second master's and her PhD at Pacifica Graduate Institute in depth psychology with an emphasis in somatic studies where her dissertation explored the interrelational dynamics of touch through training in multiple bodywork modalities, primarily based in Chinese meridian theory, as well as breathwork, energetic clearing techniques, and somatic experiencing. Sophie focuses on tapping into the unconscious by attending to what comes forward through the innate wisdom of the client's body. Dr. Fletcher, welcome to Here for the Truth. It's a pleasure to have you here. Welcome, welcome, welcome. [Speaker 1] (2:31 - 2:32) Good to be here, guys. [Speaker 2] (2:33 - 2:38) Absolutely. I just did full transparency, I'm just going to say Sophie's my wife. [Speaker 3] (2:39 - 2:39) Oh, yes. [Speaker 2] (2:39 - 2:41) I'm just going to throw that out there. [Speaker 3] (2:41 - 2:45) I meant to add that in. I meant to add that in there. Well, bro, you're married to a doctor. [Speaker 2] (2:45 - 2:53) How does it feel? You know, it feels good. It feels good. I love it. We got a doctor in the house. We got a doctor in the house. Wow. Well done. [Speaker 1] (2:53 - 2:55) Just don't call me if you have a broken bone. [Speaker 2] (2:56 - 3:03) Yeah, that's right. I think you're like the doctor that I think can actually help people. But anyways, that's a whole nother conversation. [Speaker 3] (3:04 - 3:27) So today we're going to be exploring the significance of touch. And I've got an opening quote here, if you don't mind. Touch comes before sight, before speech. It is the first language and the last. And it always tells the truth. And that's by the Canadian poet, Margaret Atwood. So Sophie, tell me, why touch? [Speaker 1] (3:29 - 5:43) Why touch? I'm not even sure it was intentional. It kind of came out of nowhere for me. It wasn't something that I had been studying specifically. And I thought it was more going to do something around body work and how the body holds so much of the unconscious. And so working with the body, you get into deeper levels and into the shadow, more of the shadow of people. And then in my second year of coursework, I read this book, The Body Has a Mind of Its Own. And in that, they spoke about peripersonal space. So peripersonal space is this neuroscience concept where it's not the aura, which a lot of people sort of equate it to, but it's different. It's like this amoeba-like area around your body. And when you're touching something, this amoeba area basically engulfs what you're touching. And your brain and your somatosensory cortex maps it as a literal part of yourself. So I really like to use the, I guess how this was explained in the book is like when you're driving in a car and you go under something low hanging and you duck, I mean, consciously, you know, me ducking, my physical head is not going to make any difference on whether or not the top of this car hits whatever I'm going under. But because you're touching it, because so much of your body is touching it, and usually especially if it's a car that you know, you've literally mapped the outside of that body as part of yourself. So it's also the same thing as I always sort of think about as well, when you're like renting a car or something, it takes a while to get used to it. And it's kind of like your own car, it's like you may make like sharper turns or do things in a smaller area and somebody, you know, the passenger or whatever might be like, oh my God, can you even do that? And it's like, you know, because you've literally mapped to the car. And then it's the other thing is like, what do we touch more nowadays than our phones? [Speaker 2] (5:44 - 5:45) That's what I was going to bring up. [Speaker 1] (5:46 - 5:50) It's like our brain has literally mapped it as like, that's the extension of my arm. [Speaker 3] (5:50 - 5:56) You know where it is at all times. And when we don't have it, the sense of what he's looking for, unconsciously. [Speaker 1] (5:57 - 7:54) Totally. And people will say, literally, I've heard people say like, it feels like I'm missing a limb when you can't find your phone. And it's because your brain is actually going like mayday, mayday, mayday. We're missing a part of us. So anyway, I read that concept and it just kind of blew my mind in terms of enmeshment, in terms of body boundaries and borders, in terms of how the concept of self gets developed, especially if you're in a relationship or even as parents, like mapping your children, you mapping your parents, that kind of thing. That kind of just brought up so many questions. And then being somebody who had been working with clients doing body work, I had experienced that with clients of feeling this kind of like melding of bodies. And so that's what got me into touch. I think it's also probably because if you look up Sidney Girard, he did this super informal study where he went to cafes all around the world and he would just watch people. And he watched and counted how many times two people touched each other during an hour long coffee time together or whatever. And he didn't know what their relationships were. He didn't know any of that. But basically, England and America, I think England had zero and America had one touch within the hour. Whereas those were the lowest count of anywhere that he went. And both my parents are English, but I was raised in America. So I was like, all right, so I got some touch deficit going on. So I figured that's also probably why I was drawn to touch. And I was a very touchy-feely child, much to my parents' comfort. [Speaker 3] (7:55 - 8:03) I guess we're going there. In your study and in your experience, how does a lack of touch affect a baby or a child? [Speaker 1] (8:05 - 10:28) Hugely, hugely, hugely, hugely. The vast majority of research on touch now is on the developmental impact that it has. It's now been known for a little while, but it's still sort of under the radar that if babies do not get a sufficient amount of contact, they will actually die. So you can have them in a sterile environment. You can give them food, water, keep them the right temperature. All of those things can be like super highly monitored and exactly what the baby needs. And unless there's physical contact and caring for the child, what's it called? I can't remember the exact word, but it literally means like a withering. Like they wither away. They lose their spirit. They lose life within them, and they pass. And then you can have a child who's in abysmal circumstances, but they're being held and carried, and they will thrive. So, I mean, it is Tiffany Field, one of the top, top, top touch researchers who's still alive at the moment. She founded the Touch Research Institute in Miami, the very first Touch Research Institute, even though all of the other centers have already had research institutes. But she says like touch is not an option. It is a vital, vital need for your life. And it's sort of used this flippant thing, but it's just not. And the vast, vast, vast majority of especially Western cultures are touch deprived, which increases depression. It lowers your nervous, your ability to withstand stress. Your immune system gets lowered. Psychological issues other than depression and everything. You're more disconnected. You're more disconnected from yourself. You're more disconnected from others and the world at large. Lack of purpose. Also, just physical stimulation is like food for your body. So, there's a lot. [Speaker 2] (10:28 - 10:37) Why do you think touch, out of all the other senses, has been, let's say, relegated to just the background a little bit in terms of how much research has been done? [Speaker 1] (10:39 - 12:46) From what I've studied and what I agree with as well, is that there's kind of like two main areas where that has happened. One, because touch is so common. Like you just don't think about it because it would be a normal thing in terms of it's just so commonplace that you don't think of it that it needs actual research or that it needs actual investigation. Two, historically, it actually had a lot of prominence in terms of its healing abilities. Like in ancient Greece, the god Asclepius, he was the god of healing. He touched people. So, his healing was through touch. You had the royal touch, which was supposed to heal people. You had Jesus doing healing touch. All of that. Like that was a normal thing. And then in the 1600s, there was this like greater split in sort of the zeitgeist of the time that I like to say was epitomized by Rene Descartes' proclamation, I think, therefore I am, which really sort of split mind and body and put mind in a much higher position than the body. And so, everything to do with the body was really sort of relegated to this lesser, dirty, lower class. It was also at that time, class-wise, as you went up in sort of wealth, you had larger homes. You could each have your own rooms. You didn't have to be in physical contact with the people that you lived with, whereas lower class were in smaller rooms, smaller homes, had to be more together. So, it was kind of this like weird amalgamation that happened plus you had sort of like the religious aspect come in that was like, oh, the body is that. It's equated with sex. It's equated with dirtiness and taboo. And you're not supposed to be in contact with others. [Speaker 2] (12:46 - 12:48) You're not supposed to show your body. [Speaker 1] (12:50 - 13:17) So, it's kind of, what was the quote somebody said? By making the body taboo, you made sex an obsession. Because it was kind of this thing, once you say like, no, that's bad. You're not supposed to touch that. You're not supposed to think about that. You're not supposed to. It becomes an obsession. It becomes a shadow, sort of undertone that takes on this really unhealthy desire. [Speaker 3] (13:17 - 13:20) Yeah, whatever's deprived becomes an unhealthy desire. [Speaker 2] (13:21 - 14:02) Yeah, and Sophia, I know you've spoken about this before, but especially around men. You know how there's this, how do I say this, like aversion to touch or like even men with other men that are friends, you know? Like, oh, no, I can't hold your hand or hug you or whatever that means. It might mean, what is it going to say about me? You know, we're in other cultures, you know, like straight heterosexual men, let's say, are like totally cool, just like kissing each other, like holding their hands, walking down the street. And I feel like you've said something about that, that like, because a lot of men in our culture are so touch deprived, that like on some unconscious way, the reason, the way they go about getting touch is primarily through sex or violence. [Speaker 1] (14:03 - 14:03) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (14:03 - 14:07) Just so they can make contact in that way. Is that correct? [Speaker 1] (14:07 - 15:26) Yeah, I mean, one of the things is that boys, little boys, stop being touched much earlier than little girls. So little girls will still be cuddled or held by their parents much later than little boys will. Little boys, I think what the research was saying was like around five. It's kind of like when boys stop being touched as much. I think like, I think the fathers, I think it's also little boys are more rambunctious. They're more active. I mean, I think it's sort of like a combination of all these things. There's also this whole, you know, Mindset around like, you're not supposed to coddle or you're not, you know, boys are supposed to like get more tough and like get through things. Whereas girls, like it's, it's all that sort of awful stuff. And then as we get older, the only way that boys know how to get touch is through violence, like fighting sports or sex. And so then we get mad at boys when it's like, they get so overwhelmed with lack of touch that they act out in negative, negative ways and harmful ways to others. But it's like, if you really think about the psychological piece of that, they are starving. Like what would you do if you're starving and you see food? [Speaker 3] (15:26 - 15:26) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (15:27 - 15:56) You're not going to go about, you know, it's like parents would kill somebody to be able to feed their child. And so we're not looking at it in the right way. We're not looking at it as this like actual physical need for survival. We're looking at it as like this luxury. You get touch and it's not, it cannot be. Animals. I mean, even look at primates, look at animal cultures. Like the whole thing is based around touching one another. [Speaker 2] (15:57 - 18:12) Like they'll like pick things off each other's fern skins to be in contact. And listen, even just for myself, I feel like I was raised with a lot of touch and I know like touching is my number one physical, like physical touches, my number one love language and in human design, my cognition or my main senses touch. But when I don't get it on a regular basis, for whatever reason, you know, even just get receiving body work, I know the impact that it has on me. You know, it really impacts my nervous system, which actually makes me think of this quote. You've shared this before and I didn't really know about this until you told me and it's Ashley Montague. Is that how I pronounce her? His name. And it says the skin develops from the same cells as the nervous system. Therefore making the skin, the external interface of the nervous system with the world. And like for me, like that quote was just like, yeah. You know what I mean? When we think about like you are your nervous system to a certain degree and like people that have more presence and peace in their life and resilience, you know, their nervous system health is, is healthier. You know, it's more regulated. And so when you think about the impact of touch and what that can do to a person's nervous system, to me, it's like, of course, like this should be so, so, so, so important, which then of course brings me to this. And obviously I want to get into your backstory a little bit for our viewers, but we've just spent the last 15 months. And I don't know if it's slowing down much where we've been conditioned to believe that touch is going to kill you. I mean, pretty much the thing that is the most important thing in my opinion, and you know, you can share your thoughts is the thing to fear and we can get into so many reasons why that is and get into theories, but what, what are your thoughts on that? Like, as this whole thing was unfolding, as this whole COVID thing has been happening, what was coming up for you around this, knowing that like you're literally doing this deep research for your, for your dissertation on touch. And it's like, nah, stay away from everyone. [Speaker 3] (18:13 - 18:16) Touch is the enemy. Tell us is going to the shops in bubble wrap healthy. [Speaker 1] (18:19 - 18:40) I mean, I guess you're still getting physical stimulation from the bubble wrap, but it's not exactly the same. I mean, there is a lot of research on like, you know, the, the weighted blankets and things like that. So you are still getting that like your touch receptors are getting stimulated to a certain degree, but I am so, I'm so, so partial. [Speaker 2] (18:41 - 18:44) I go to, I go to Whole Foods with weighted bubble wrap on the regular. [Speaker 1] (18:46 - 20:50) That's how you survived this year. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, I mean, I was joking. What was it like a month ago where I was like, man, like when I chose this topic or when this topic kind of chose me like four years ago, when I started this, the dissertation process, development process, it was like, Oh, I'm doing it on touch and you know, yes. Touched a pipe culture, but nobody really talks about it or knows about it. And it's like, like I thought it was important, but it wasn't like a controversial issue really. Now I'm joking that like, you know, the year that I was doing my actual interviews, research is like the most controversial topic that I could possibly be doing it on, which, you know, I personally probably wouldn't have chosen. So I'm glad I didn't know it at the time. But yeah, definitely weird. Cause I mean, my interviews were with people who are hands-on healing body workers. So practitioners of body work. Cause I really wanted to study people who are in intentional contact with others and what their experience is of being in contact with others. And I figured that if, you know, I walked down the street, you just ask random people, like, what is your experience of touch? I was going to get nothing that I could like really, really work with. So I figured I'd narrow it down to that. And during my interviews, I think five of my six participants were not allowed to work. They were, they were out of work. They weren't allowed to be practicing. Only one person was, and that's cause he was in, I don't remember what state, but he wasn't, he was on the East coast somewhere. It wasn't locked down. [Speaker 2] (20:50 - 20:55) I thought maybe he worked for himself and was like, fuck the rules. I'm going to do what I got to do. [Speaker 1] (20:55 - 21:06) No, I don't think any of them were like, fuck the rules. This, well, he's a chiropractor. I'm curious if he was deemed necessary. [Speaker 3] (21:07 - 22:01) You know, what's like even, even going like one step deeper, like birthing during peak pandemic and peak COVID and the immediate touch deprivation and that fear that's overlaid upon us when it comes to newborns and babies and viruses and health. And even in the hospital systems, I know in countries around the world, like the father isn't even allowed in the room. The mother only gets one person often that's going to be a doula or a midwife or a support person. Right. So, I mean, just thinking about the massive long-term effects and consequences of babies born at this time, particularly in families that have outsourced all their trust and power to the powers that be. So to say, yeah, I can't even begin to imagine what the world would look like for them. [Speaker 1] (22:01 - 22:10) I saw that video where it was like a baby had literally just been born and the mother had like a, like a plastic. [Speaker 2] (22:11 - 22:13) Yeah, like a shield on her face. [Speaker 1] (22:13 - 22:15) And then the baby was being sort of like pushed into the plastic. [Speaker 2] (22:15 - 22:18) It was like plastic wrap. It felt like it was being pushed into plastic wrap. [Speaker 1] (22:19 - 22:20) Oh my gosh. [Speaker 2] (22:20 - 22:42) It felt like it was straight out of like this dystopian movie, you know? Like it's like, what are we humans or not? Like this, it couldn't be further from health in my opinion. And I guess the follow-up question to that is with all this touch deprivation and touch aversion and fear, like what do you think the long-term impacts are going to be? [Speaker 1] (22:43 - 25:27) I mean, I think, I mean, we've already seen massive impacts in terms of the skyrocketing depression, skyrocketing suicides. It's just, I mean, even my friends, like the vast majority of my friends that I've talked to, it's like they've just plummeted in terms of their own mental health and physical health because of it. I think, I think it's terrifying to me to think about the longer term ramifications of kids who are growing up right now. You know, like I, the other day walking somewhere down the street and there was a group of little kids and we were walking towards each other. And as we got close, the little kids like went like single file against the edge of the, of the sidewalk with their hands behind them. And like this kind of like military pose as if like I was going to hurt them. And it's like, I don't, I mean, as a kid, it's really terrifying to me to really feel into like the trauma that's happening to our kids right now around the fact that they're being, they think that anyone around them is a threat and that they think that they could possibly be a threat to anybody. I mean, all of these, I've seen commercials now of, of kids being like, so who knows, is this real, but it's scripted of, you know, I'm so worried that I'm going to bring COVID home to my parents. If I go to school and it's like, it's a well-crafted propaganda. So much to put on kids, not, and you're not allowed to touch each other. You're not allowed to cuddle. You're not allowed to play. I mean, one, actually one of my participants talked about that, where she has a young child and she was commenting on that. She was seeing the touch deprivation impact on her child already. And this was like three months into lockdown. So that was, you know, almost a year ago at this point. And she was saying that her child, even though her it's a super touchy feely family. And apparently like she's always in contact with the mom or the dad or all that. It was like, she wasn't allowed to be playing, like physically playing with the friends. And so she was just seeing that her daughter was like way more reserved, was way more sort of lethargic, was way more tired, was way more just sort of down. Whereas she had been saying that her, you know, her child was so vibrant and excited all the time and was really, really physical. [Speaker 3] (25:27 - 26:23) It's shocking and scary to think about the mindset of some of you mean some of the things and people that are out there at the moment, having just completely capitulated to the propaganda machine that is in full swing. I remember hearing a story. Early on in the piece where you mean, I think it was in New York and a father and son working through the city and the father's mask fell off slightly. And the son was so shocked. He thought he was, his dad was going to die. And just this, this kind of these, these concepts, man, I feel sorry for the kids more than anything, because they don't know better and they can't really know better. They're, they're basically at the whim of whatever their parents are thinking at the time. And I hope that, you know what I mean? They, they can come, come out on the other side, half sane out of all of this. [Speaker 2] (26:23 - 26:44) Yeah. I hope so as well. And I know there was that, was it those collection of tweets that went viral around like parents in like Canada when, where they were like, they were isolating their kids for like two weeks, like, and like not even a lot, not seeing them and like communicating to them, like from like radio or something, maybe monitors. [Speaker 1] (26:44 - 27:36) Crying and saying how lonely they were and how like they needed attention and they were, you know, so sad. And it's like, I mean, that's where you get to the point where it's like, wow, you've been so indoctrinated that you're going completely against your own nature. Like everything within a parent's body. If your child is crying hysterically over a baby monitor, I think it was like seven years old, seven years old, the child alone in a room, everything in your body should be screaming at you being like, this is not okay. This is seriously wrong. Like if you're being asked to do this, this is not okay. And like how badly indoctrinated you need to be that you're, you're actually going a hundred percent against your own nature as a human, and as a parent. [Speaker 2] (27:38 - 27:40) Again, the propaganda machine, none of it based on real science. [Speaker 3] (27:42 - 28:20) Yeah. I mean, and the conditioning and the indoctrinations already there from the get go, because I mean, most parents that bring kids into the world immediately, they want the baby to be sleep trained. Like this baby can sleep train itself somehow and they should be in a room alone, crying it out. You know what I mean? And the baby's a hassle if it's actually in the bed and there's co-sleeping and there's real natural nurturing that that's taken place. So I feel like that the foundations for, for this mindset, we're already kind of seeded, seeded in a way, but now it's just become extrapolated beyond anything else. It's, it makes me sick to be honest. It makes me really, really, really angry that this, this, this, this is going on. [Speaker 1] (28:22 - 29:12) But you know, I mean, I guess, I guess sort of like what I try to focus on to combat that is that hopefully this will also wake up a lot of people to the importance of touch, to the importance of being in community, to the importance of being connected with others. All of that in terms of, I feel like it's, it is one of those things where sometimes things have to get worse and worse and worse and so bad in order for people to realize, because even though we were already a hugely touch deprived culture, it's like, it was, you could bypass it. Whereas I feel like this, hopefully will wake up a lot of people to like, hang on a second. This is actually really painful. [Speaker 3] (29:13 - 29:58) Yeah, no, definitely. And to me, like I've mentioned this before, but it does feel like a really significant timeline reality split in a way where some people are going to be, you mean, awake, wake up completely and drawn more even so into a natural and authentic path and realize these things. But for me, I really feel like this whole COVID touch deprivation thing kind of ties, it does tie into a long-term transhumanist agenda. That's my feeling on all of this. Definitely. You know, maybe we're going to become more attached to the machine, more attached to getting a stimulation from the machine, from the AI through interfaces, as opposed to. Human to human contact. Yeah. Being who we are. [Speaker 1] (29:59 - 30:12) Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Especially this year where it's like, if you weren't allowed, if you know, weren't allowed out of your house to be in contact with people and things like that, what were you doing? Probably sitting at home on your phone. [Speaker 3] (30:13 - 30:18) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Phone, computer. I mean, look what we're doing now. Right. [Speaker 1] (30:18 - 30:24) Yeah. I mean, that's the positive part of it, you know, like, like we wouldn't have connected. [Speaker 3] (30:24 - 30:25) Yeah, no, exactly. [Speaker 1] (30:25 - 30:48) You know, without this kind of technology and ways to be in contact with people without being like, it is awesome. It does open up major avenues. And I think that it needs to be balanced out with and put emphasis on human to human contact at the same time. It can't, it can't be a full substitute. [Speaker 2] (30:49 - 30:49) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (30:49 - 31:14) At the end of the day, there is now, I think, I like as somatic experiencing one of the Magalis we're trained in is, is experimenting with virtual touch and things and, and there's research coming out on that. Again, I'm super partial. I'm biased. I'm not going to say that I'm not very much biased on it. I know it has effect, but, but it's like, it's different. [Speaker 2] (31:14 - 31:47) It's definitely different. And listen, technology is a tool like other things are tools and do the tools use you or do you use the tools and have balance? Like you said, I'm really grateful that we have this opportunity to connect that Joel and I connected through technology. Otherwise we wouldn't have. So yeah, it's really, really important. But then the day there's no replacement for touching and connecting with other people and hugging and, and touching the earth and being outside and letting the wind touch you and breathing things in, letting the sun touch you, those kinds of things. [Speaker 1] (31:48 - 32:35) Well, even like self touch. I mean, I, obviously my distribution was on interrelational dynamics. So what happens between two people touching, but I also did a lot of reading on just touch. Stimulation of the skin is still really important and still amazing. I mean, just doing like just little, you know, self compress, um, and touch massage on yourself. It's like that is a way for you to get more in touch with your body, more in tune with your own self and disconnect from this sort of like whatever you're being taught or fed or whatever. It's like you come back to yourself. The more you're in touch with yourself, the more you're going to be able to authentically be in touch with others. [Speaker 3] (32:35 - 32:35) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (32:36 - 32:38) And I mean, maintain your own sense of self. [Speaker 3] (32:38 - 32:56) Yeah. And like self, self Shiatsu is such a big thing in Eastern culture. I mean, I have a regular Shigong practice and I mean, a part of what I've learned is like just meridian tapping, you know what I mean? And they've, they've done this for thousands of years. Um, so it's like the, they, they knew, right. [Speaker 1] (32:56 - 32:59) Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. [Speaker 3] (33:00 - 33:00) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (33:03 - 33:03) Hmm. [Speaker 3] (33:04 - 33:08) Talk to us. You're asking us any other questions. [Speaker 2] (33:08 - 33:42) You got your wife. Yeah. Cause there's all these like questions around, like I know my wife, so it's like, Whoa, tell us about your background. What drew you to this? Um, but really like what connected you on this path of wanting to gain greater self-awareness and always, you know, what was it in you? Where was that seed planted? Like what obstacles did you face on the Siddhartha road of authenticity? To whatever degree you feel comfortable sharing. [Speaker 1] (33:42 - 37:55) Yeah. Um, I mean, I think, I mean, as it said in, in the intro, I was, I was brought up in kind of a spiritual community, kind of an alternative, um, spiritual community. And my godmother, I was really sick when I was born. Um, and my mom, uh, well, I guess I'll just be honest. So my dad was in pharmaceuticals or that was his career and I was born really ill. And my mom realized that the pharmaceuticals weren't helping me. They were actually making me sicker and that the, the main doctor she was taking me to weren't able to figure out what was happening for me. And so it kind of forced her onto an alternative path of, okay, this isn't working. What else? Like she, you know, as a mother does of like, I will, I will search for anything to save my child. Um, and so that really motivated her to find these alternative paths. Um, and part of that was finding this person who ended up sort of, I adopted her as my godmother. So this person was more on the alternative spiritual realms and I started working with her. Um, and, uh, a lot of it was more sort of esoteric work and things. Um, and I was, I was severely, severely depressed starting at the age of three, is what I've been able to trace it back to that at age three, I started having my first suicidal thoughts and ideations and wishing that I wasn't here anymore. I had this, um, very strong sort of, um, mindset that if I weren't here, everyone else would be better off. Um, and so that just got really ingrained in me starting at age three. And, um, and I never ended up doing anything because of this spiritual community. Community. One of the lessons that I was taught was that if I were to commit suicide, that I would have to come back and do it again, because there was a strong emphasis on karma and reincarnation. And as silly as it was that sort of went deeply enough that I was like, well, that's not an option. Like I don't, I don't feel like doing it again. That's not smart. So I'm just going to power through and keep going. And so while it didn't, you know, cure my depression or change my mindset, it stopped me from actually physically doing anything to myself to, to make that happen. So that was great. Um, but it was all about sort of transcending the body. It was a lot of meditation. It was a lot of, um, focusing outside of yourself, focusing on, um, the larger sort of universal, uh, experience and, um, you know, if something hurt, you just kind of move your attention to something else. And while it was great, um, I, it was after I graduated with spiritual psychology that I did my first body work session with somebody. And it really just started to land these things that all of you sort of concepts and all of this sort of emotional and esoteric work that I had been doing was able to land more deeply into my body. So while I had been doing all these practices, I was still severely, severely depressed until 24, 25, 24, 25 is basically where it started to shift because I got into body work. Um, and as I started getting this body work done, that's when it really solidified the shift for me. And, and I, and I haven't been depressed or had a suicidal thought since, um, since 25. So 10 ish years now. [Speaker 3] (37:55 - 38:05) Thank you for sharing. Um, I've got, I've got one question if you don't mind. What was it at three years old that made you feel like such a burden on, on others? [Speaker 1] (38:07 - 41:26) Um, I, I think it was, uh, uh, I think it was a little bit of a series of things. Um, one is that I had a sexual trauma happen, um, with an, with an older male. Um, and I think that that was the first sort of like get out of my body, um, to sort of protect myself, you know, go into that dissociated state to be able to handle what was happening. Um, two, I had an experience where, um, I was at a neighbor's house and we were playing with like toy cars and one of the boys picked up a rock about like that size. And he threw it up in the air thinking like, Oh, I'll get a bigger, you know, smash or whatever. And he said, look up. Well, I was three. So I looked up and I caught the rock. I saw the scar. I don't know if you can see it, but right here in my head. And I think it, it knocked my, cause I was like this. So it knocked my brain in a certain way. And now I've, that was actually a dissertation topic that I was exploring whether or not it was going to do it on traumatic brain injuries. But there, there is some research, even with CTE and stuff with the football players. Um, but there's, there's research coming out or developing around how with traumatic brain injuries, especially with kids, but even older your brain actually gets moved. Um, and so the wiring is a little skewy, like things aren't actually as they should be. Um, and along with that, I remember my distinct memory is that I was lying in the backseat of my mom's car with, you know, like paper towel on my face as it was like gushing blood. And my mom is in the front seat with my sister, my older sister. And my mom is like screaming at my sister. Like, how could you let this happen to her? You know, you were in charge. You need to look after all of a sudden my sister's crying. And I just had this very strong, if I weren't here, this wouldn't be happening. Like they wouldn't be arguing. My family would be happier. And my, I mean, my, my, uh, My nickname as a child was disaster area. Um, because I had this habit of like running into everything. So if there was like an open field and one tree, I ran into the tree somehow with my head. Um, There's also research on that, that apparently once there's a traumatic brain injury, once you've hit your head in a certain way, or there's a certain injury, your body will actually sort of recreate things to try and like Jar it back into place. Like an instinctive, like trying to heal yourself, but you're actually hurting yourself more. But, um, so I think there's a little bit of that, but so, so both of those kinds of things, um, both of those happened at three and I think that's just such a, you know, a formative little age that you're, you're just becoming more conscious of things. You're just kind of becoming more and more conscious of like other things outside of you and what's happening around you and, Oh, that feels good. That doesn't feel good. [Speaker 2] (41:26 - 42:01) Um, so I think those things just kind of tandem together, uh, to me being like, I find it interesting to, I find it interesting to you that you're a three line and human design and this happened when you're three and the three line in human design and it's your conscious line is all about bumping into things and learning through trial and error. So you mentioned like bumping into things. So again, who knows? It's just interesting. It happened at three and then you're a three. And you said like, I kept bumping into things. Uh, so it's interesting to think about that's for sure. Definitely. [Speaker 1] (42:02 - 43:59) Yeah. Yeah. I think also, I mean, I wanted to just share it cause school was really, really, really hard for me. School was, um, I did. Well, I went to a Quaker school and there was only 20 of us in a group, in a class or in a grade or whatever. So it was very small. Um, but it was, so I didn't go to public school. Um, but it wasn't like a Montessori or something like that. It was more normal. Yep. Um, in terms of that. But I, what I was told later is that I'm more of a kinesthetic learner. So I do better if I can like touch something or understand something like personally relate to it, um, get it through different avenues. And, um, and my parents are extremely smart. And so is my sister. Um, and then when I was seven or eight, um, and I'm curious about this in terms of the traumas that I had and sort of the depression and stuff that that also really affected my ability to learn things. Cause memorization, I am terrible with memorization. Like if you give me something to memorize, it's not going to happen. I could take a week on it. I'm not going to remember it unless I like, have something where it like hits me, like touch research and things like that, where it's like, I have a story. I have, um, it's more personal. Um, but so seven or eight, because I couldn't, they would do, you know, spelling quizzes or whatever and reading, um, you know, lessons. And so my parents were called in and I remember sitting with them with my first grade teacher. And she was explaining to them that I was so severely dyslexic that I wasn't going to graduate high school and that college was completely and utterly out of the question. [Speaker 2] (44:01 - 44:07) And who's this teacher now? So you can show your PhD and your two master's degree to let's hear it. [Speaker 1] (44:07 - 45:21) Yeah. So I think that that also was, you know, as a parent, especially you hold intellectual prowess as, as a very high quality. Um, I think that was really hard on them and they, my mom was fierce in terms of she did not let me be diagnosed and she didn't, she didn't, I was never put on medication. I was never put on anything to like combat it or whatever. She just had me go through like multiple, multiple tests and I had to go to special tutoring and all of that. But I think there was a certain level of like, Oh, something's wrong with me. Um, they got really ingrained as well through that of like, I'm not smart. I'm not capable. I can't do, you know, the same thing as everybody else. Um, and I also, I'm also kind of grateful for it because I'm curious how, what percentage of that also sort of motivated me to do the PhD, you know? Cause I mean, trauma can also be the greatest motivator that you can possibly have. And even my research on touch and things like that's all from trauma. That's all from my own shadow, uh, you know, wounding. [Speaker 3] (45:21 - 45:22) Yeah, definitely. [Speaker 1] (45:23 - 45:34) To do that. So, you know, there's a part of me that now, I mean, if you would ask me, you know, when I was eight through probably like high school, I would have said, fuck that's terrible. [Speaker 3] (45:34 - 45:51) But now it's sort of like, you know, But the shadow in a sense is where our deepest work lies. Right. So often is the catalyst and the motivator for where you mean our, our trajectory kind of points in a sense. Definitely. [Speaker 2] (45:52 - 45:56) Your greatest wound becomes your greatest gift as the saying goes. [Speaker 1] (45:56 - 45:57) Exactly. [Speaker 2] (45:57 - 45:58) Nice. [Speaker 1] (45:58 - 46:04) Yeah. Yeah. I think there are pieces like that. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (46:06 - 46:07) Thank you for sharing. [Speaker 1] (46:08 - 46:27) I mean, so. Getting in touch with the body. I mean, even touch, I feel like goes with that of like, because dissociation was such, was my go-to for dealing with trauma or anything. It's like getting into the body touch. That's probably another reason why I was really, really drawn to it. [Speaker 3] (46:27 - 47:05) Yeah. And I think it's such a, it's, it's such an, um, It's underrated. Topic or concept because most psychotic disorders, you know what I mean? From narcissism to schizophrenia can be linked back to bodily dissociation and a lack of bodily presence. Um, I read a book, betrayal of the body by Alexander law, and that goes into this goes into this deeply. And just to think even the correlation between a simple narcissistic attitude and bodily dissociation, um, do you want to touch on that a little bit? [Speaker 1] (47:07 - 47:59) Yeah. Um, well, I think it goes back to what I was talking about, even with the like self touch and research on that, of being in more touch with yourself is that, um, narcissism. It's such a wound on not knowing yourself. I mean, it's such, such, such a deep wound of self doubt of self, self loathing in a lot of ways. Um, and, and it's a disconnection from your true self, because if you're really connected to yourself, if you really love yourself, you really care for yourself. If you really feel yourself, you're going to know more of your divinity and all of that. Um, and so with narcissism, you're, you're so disconnected from the truth of who you are. Um, um, but I think touch touch can only help with that. [Speaker 3] (47:59 - 49:17) Hmm. No, definitely. And I mean, it's, it's, it's projecting everything that we lack. Right. Yeah. And I mean, this always, for me, I've always come back to, um, you mean the, the Rocky and idea of, of bioenergy and ultimately touch being the, the catalyst for that bioenergy to be able to flow and for us to be embodied, not disembodied as these new age gurus, teachers, um, and even religious and biblical and Judeo Christian Christianity ideology have perpetuated and indoctrinated and conditioned into the masses for so long. Um, it's, it's crazy for me to think about, you know, because for me, I always try to create these links, but to me, there has to be intention there, right? They must have known at some point the ultimate significance of the body as primary and as divine for the actual stigma and ideology of the body to be dirty, to be perpetuated such a deep extent. Um, and for someone to actually that's raised with these ideologies to get to the point of, I guess, reversing that and understanding it's, it's a, it's a big trick. It is, it really, really is. [Speaker 1] (49:17 - 52:04) Yeah. I mean, Reich is the, you know, Godfather of Western body work in terms of everything kind of started from him saying, fuck you to the establishment of the psychoanalytic Institute in Vienna with Freud and, and well young as well, but not, they didn't know each other. Um, but you know, Reich was was one of the main students from Freud and Freud actually started with the body. He started, uh, his theories of the instincts and all of that was very body based and he was a hypnotherapist at first and he would touch his clients while they were, um, under hypnosis to really like kind of provoke more of these emotional reactions. Uh, and then as he kind of wanted to create psychoanalysis to be more of a quote unquote hard science or recognizable science and be quote unquote more legitimate, he shied away from that. He really went more with like, okay, this is what's acceptable by society. So we're gonna, no one's allowed to touch because now there was this whole thing of like psychoanalysis being, um, sort of made an analogous synonymous with like sex work and stuff because, oh, they're asking you about your sex life. They're asking about your childhood. They're asking you about all of these instincts and Oedipal instincts and sex drive and all of this. Oh, there, you know, this is dirty work. Um, and so he really shied away from that and then he really took it even a massive step further and he made it so that the analyst was out of sight. So the analyst sat behind the client, the patient who was lying down. Um, and so I talk about this in my dissertation and how he literally removed the person, the analyst body. So they were supposed to be a hundred percent blank slate. Young did a little differently where he actually brought the body back in where he would talk to them about their bodily feelings and, and sensations and all of that, but he never touched. He wouldn't do touch work. Um, Reich was the first person. Well, and Alexander Lohan and, um, Grodek, what's his first name? Um, and George, George, George Grodek. Um, they kind of all started, but Reich was, he had a massive, you know, split with, with Freud because of it. And really went against the establishment stood up for himself. You know, when you're talking about like here for the truth, like going against the grade and that kind of thing, like what sets you apart? Like did that. [Speaker 3] (52:05 - 52:06) And look what they did to him for it. Right. [Speaker 1] (52:06 - 52:11) He ends up dying in jail with all of his work destroyed and burned. [Speaker 2] (52:12 - 53:10) Yeah. Isn't that the case historically of some, yeah. So many pioneers, anyone that challenges the status quo, especially depending on the time period, like gets burned at the stake, you know, which, you know, the powers that be, they use that as an example to say, Hey, if you get out of line, if you start challenging the status quo, this is what's going to happen to you. And we've seen that the last 15 months, you know, people that have been challenging the, the conventional narrative around this whole COVID thing, including scientists, PhDs, doctors, health practitioners. It's like, no, we're going to censor your ass. You know, we're going to de-platform me. We're going to take away your ability to make money as well. And so it's like, it takes something within, in this hero's journey. What is that that keeps people like this on the path towards truth? Cause it's like truth above all the truth is the only thing that matters and people make sacrifices. And this is what happened with Reich. [Speaker 3] (53:11 - 53:34) And I mean, it also gives us clues as to what, what truths are most threatening to the establishment, right. Based on how, how hard that punishment seems to come down. And yeah, this to me, what happened to Reich links completely with the, with the, the false ideologies perpetuated by religious circles, you know, the main enzymes of the body and the idea of the body. So yeah. [Speaker 2] (53:35 - 54:07) And it's not to say like these people that we talk about are like 100% right or have all the answers, but we live in this culture where it's like, Oh, this one person did this one bad thing. Let's throw the baby out with the bath water. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's just like, well, no, you have to like look at these people when they were around during what time period and they're experimenting and they're exploring the path to truth. It is a lot of bumps in the road. You know, it is a trial and error process. You're not just going to like wake up one day and like, I have all the answers. That's it. And so you're going to make your mistakes. And I think. [Speaker 1] (54:08 - 54:12) And be like supernatural non-human without any flaws whatsoever. [Speaker 2] (54:12 - 54:12) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (54:12 - 54:14) Right. Like. We're going to have flaws. [Speaker 2] (54:14 - 54:15) We're going to have flaws. [Speaker 1] (54:16 - 55:34) Like Reich was apparently like, you know, not a nice person in any stretch of the imagination, but it's like, did he have good ideas? Did he have foundational information that was, that was drastically changing people's lives and experiences? Yeah. Sounds like it seems like it. I mean, I read, I read all of his books for, for my dissertation. And it's like, he's saying all the stuff that I was just learning about. It's just, he was doing it at, you know, the very fricking beginning and got burned for it. And then everything went underground. Like, okay, well, we're not going to talk about the body. We're not going to talk about body work. And so there's just this like gap in terms of like his work and stuff. And then there's like nothing for a little while of people, because it was just people. You know, anybody who was into it was kind of like underground and only teaching to maybe like a few students, but not definitely not publishing about it or anything. They'd be like blasphemous. So it was like, And then it came out with like Alexander Lohan and, and all that, where they sort of bringing it back into things during that sort of, you know, time of, of renovation or Renaissance or like, we're going to do what we want. Everything's great. [Speaker 2] (55:36 - 56:33) I brought this up, I think on our, on our last call, but it's one of my favorite quotes. And it's so applicable when you think historically and even in today's world, and it's a Schopenhauer quote. And it says all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. And how many times do we see that? You know, I mean, even just in the last 15 months, you know, things that like people were being called conspiracy theorists over and ridiculed and ostracized are like pretty much true. You know what I mean? And how many people then take responsibility, go, you know what? I was 100% wrong. And like, you were right. No, people dig their heels in. They like pretend they weren't the person calling everyone a conspiracy theorist. And it's just like, you think back to days of Reich, you know, how many people, what was it like to imagine? What was it like back then? To have people, other colleagues or other PhDs or Freud or whoever, you know, contemporary is being like, he's crazy. He's a threat to society. [Speaker 3] (56:33 - 56:36) He's evil. He backstabbed, right? Yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (56:37 - 56:45) He did. Even, I mean, what was it not until like the seventies or eighties when they started deciding that babies could feel. [Speaker 2] (56:45 - 56:46) Oh yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (56:47 - 56:55) It's like, that's so recent. Like you didn't realize, but now we have all the research saying that no babies are feeling everything inside the womb. [Speaker 2] (56:55 - 56:56) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (56:56 - 57:34) Whatever the mother is going through the baby is experiencing as well. Like the nervous system, everything like touch is the very first sense to, to develop and every other sense develop, every other sense developed from the same cells. It's like touch is the mother of the senses. That's what actually Montague says is it's like yours, getting that first stimulation while you're in the womb, as you're bumping up against the edges inside, you know, inside there and like getting all that stimulation and, and even starting that, this is me, this is other. [Speaker 3] (57:35 - 58:03) Yep. Yeah. First language, right? I mean, we use sensation. Yeah. We, we communicate through touch. Like we, we, we, there is obvious communication that comes through when somebody touches us, whether that's, you mean sinister, whether it's empathic, whether it's whatever you mean touch it is language. And I mean, for a baby being held by, by a mother. And if the mother is resentful or whatnot, then the baby's going to feel that too. Right. [Speaker 1] (58:03 - 58:31) Yeah. Well, especially like the baby doesn't understand words yet. They're not going like, Oh, they said, I love you. That means they love me. They're going by, Oh, she's stroking my back in such a nice way that feels great. That's what love is. You know, they're not, they're not having that intellectual discussion inside of themselves, but it's like your physical body is replying to nice stimulation, bad stimulation. [Speaker 2] (58:31 - 59:51) I remember, I remember reading about what you just said before around like that up until the seventies, eighties, you know, the consensus was that babies didn't feel anything. And I read about that in this book by Dr. Ronald Goldman called circumcision, the hidden trauma. And they talked about that. And so I just, it does blow my mind that went around the time when I was born, I was born in 1980, that the consensus in the medical community was that babies do not feel pain. And even just the fact that like when babies were, were, were, were experiencing circumcision and they would like pass out disassociate, you can say like the ruling paradigm was like, Oh no, they're just going to sleep. It's just, it's so archaic and, and it blows my mind. And a lot of that stuff, it takes decades for these truths to come out. You know, there are these rituals, there are these ways of being that just get passed down because it's like, this is what we've always done. This is how it's done. And it does take a pioneer like Reich or someone of that ilk to go, wait a minute, something's fucked up. Like, wait, how long has this been going on? [Speaker 1] (59:51 - 59:57) We've been really messing with people like draft, like really hurting people. [Speaker 2] (59:57 - 1:02:24) For how long? And it's like, nah, I have a different way. And it's not for everyone. Like that's, there's a reason why there's only like one Reich, you know? And it takes a certain person and their path. And we can talk about human design. We talk about your telescopic system, like which types of people are geared more towards this thing. But it is, it's, it's the road less traveled. Yeah. You know, being on this hero journey, challenging the consensus, exploring who you are on the deepest levels, challenging the system. It's not for everyone. You know, it's one of the big reasons why we have this podcast. Like Joel said earlier is that, you know, I'd like to think we're all true seekers to the degree, but we also, we want to celebrate that. We want to celebrate the person who has challenged authority, challenged a status quo, you know, that are fighting for freedom, freedom of their lives, freedom of truth. You know, that like, talk about the obstacles they've faced and have like met them face to face and said, you know what, fuck this, fuck the system. There's a better way. And I, you know, it's just, it's just really cool. And I'm really blessed and grateful that we're doing this. And obviously in interviewing you, it's really cool. Cause it's like, how many people go like, I'm going to write my dissertation on touch or I'm going to explore touch. Like what is the significance of touch? You know, like you said earlier, it's kind of this thing that's taken for granted, but we don't really know. And we're going to experience in the next two years, three years, four years, the next 10 years, who knows? The repercussions of this lack of touch for the last 15 months, 16 months, whatever that is. And I do hope like you mentioned that there is something positive that comes out of this, that we realize the importance of it. You know what I mean? And it also makes me think, and I'd love for you to comment on this too. Like I wouldn't say directly related to touch, but we're talking about reading signals and psychology and parent child relationship is like for however many months we've had these children, two years old, three years old, four years old, five years old, that are literally growing up and experiencing an environment where they're masked up and their parents and their peers and their teachers and the people around them are masked up. And it's like, babies need to, children need to read signals in order to, to, to develop empathy. And they're, they're being robbed of this opportunity. So I would love for you to comment on that a little bit. [Speaker 1] (1:02:26 - 1:05:07) Well, I mean, I think you, you sort of hit it correctly of like, I just think there's going to be a huge deficit in terms of empathic development in people. I mean, they were already seeing that so massively in terms of like the rise in technology and video games and things like that, where it's like, you can literally, your goal is to like kill people and you're not having any reaction whatsoever. Like desensitizing, right? You should be having a reaction to that. I always really love one of my, one of my cohort members was doing her dissertation on, on soldiers and their transition out of the military. But at one point I remember her stating like PTSD, the D is actually incredibly inaccurate because it's post-traumatic stress disorder. But when you're having the reactions that are classified as PTSD, that's actually a natural response. That's actually the response you should be having to an unnatural and traumatic experience. The people who aren't having any kind of reaction to that, those are the people who are actually having disorder happen within them because they're not having the empathic resonance. They're not having the human nature reaction that they should be having to abnormal and traumatic experiences. So I think it's the same with sort of this 15, 16, however many months it's been or whatever, like the people who are having reactions are more healthy than people who are like, no, this is fine. This is normal. This is totally great. And what we're doing with the kids with that is we're just completely desensitizing them to understanding that this is an abnormal and traumatic experience. And we're telling them like, no, this is normal. This is fine. This is for your health. This is for your good. This is to save your parents and your grandparents. And so we're telling them to go against their natural instincts and to basically like squash their own animal nature of being in contact, being, yeah, being empathic, being in resonance with others. We're basically like, no, shut that down. Stop being, you know, stop being sensitive. This is an insane time. And we're telling kids that like, this is normal. This is fine. Get over it. Like, no, you should be sensitive to this. [Speaker 2] (1:05:07 - 1:05:18) This reminds me of the, it's the Krishnamurti quote. It's like, it's no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. Exactly. And I think that's what we're doing with the kids. [Speaker 1] (1:05:18 - 1:05:27) That's exactly what we're doing with the kids. We're adjusting them to an unsafe, unhealthy environment. [Speaker 3] (1:05:28 - 1:06:01) And what I love about what we're doing now is that I wholeheartedly believe that the way to reverse this and out of this, it is the body, right? Because once you re-sensitize the body, once you get in touch with the body, you can orient yourself again. You can begin to understand inner truths because you're no longer externalizing everything, right? So the remedy to me is the body. [Speaker 1] (1:06:03 - 1:06:42) Yeah. It's coming back in touch with yourself. It's getting back in contact with yourself, getting back into knowing yourself, working on yourself, all of that. I mean, from every single one of my practitioners that I interviewed, the main through line was like, that they have to be doing their own work on themselves in order to be the best practitioner that they can to other people. That if they're not doing their own work, if they're not taking care of themselves, if they're not like doing their own internal excavation and, and going within themselves, that they are going to be unhealthy for their clients. [Speaker 3] (1:06:42 - 1:06:46) Well, you can't really offer anything to another that you haven't already given to yourself, you know? [Speaker 1] (1:06:46 - 1:07:16) Right. But it's even like there will end up going into more enmeshment versus empathy. They will go into more like melding. They'll go into, because a lot of them were talking about how, well, so one of the main, main things in my dissertation is that everybody kind of bypasses the fact that for touch, touch is the only sense that is inherently bi-directional. So you cannot touch something without also being touched yourself. [Speaker 3] (1:07:16 - 1:07:16) Yep. [Speaker 1] (1:07:17 - 1:09:00) Well, so that was also a huge part of my dissertation in terms of working on the practitioners is that research on body work really focuses on does this modality work and what is the client's experience, which is great. That's extremely important research. And there's another body in the room and they're having an experience. They are also being touched. So my, my title was actually touched by touching and it's because when you're touching something, you're being touched by it. You're also being impacted, but it goes both ways. So it's this exchange of energy that is just happening when bodies are touching each other. So if they're in a bad, if a practitioner is in a bad mood, if they're low, if they're, you know, griping about something and they're in contact with their client, that energy is exchanging back and forth. So again, they're like, you have to be on top of yourself if you're going to be in contact, but it brings it back to this. Like everything is interconnected. The entire world is interconnected as much as like you need to be responsible for yourself as the individual. Like we're all individuals. We're all our own beings and we're interconnected. So I'm impacting and I'm being impacted by everything. There's no way for me to be completely separate from everything. So how do we be responsible in that? How do we take self responsibility for ourselves to stand up for ourselves, to be in better understanding, self knowledge, self contact so that we can be the best person to be impacting others as well. It starts with us. [Speaker 2] (1:09:00 - 1:09:31) For some reason, while you were saying that, it just made me think of our last guest, John brought up the concept of tensegrity, you know, within the body and within the fascial system, it's like, it's all connected. It just made me think of this like idea of like social tensegrity, universal tensegrity, like how we're all connected. And it's like, well, okay, maybe it's on this macro level, but like how I'm being and how I'm relating with myself, like how does that impact the whole, whatever this web of life is, you know? So I don't know. It's just very interesting to think of it that way. [Speaker 1] (1:09:31 - 1:10:11) That perfect tensegrity between not going into like full meld into the group of like, I'm not my own person. And I'm just going to be in group think, and I'm just going to be, you know, a blob with everything else and that everything's, you know, the same. Versus like, I'm just the individual and fuck everyone else. You know, those are kind of like two extremes. Whereas it's really coming to that like tensegrity within yourself of the world of like, I'm a human, I'm an individual with independence. And I do have responsibility to the world at the same time. So how do you balance that? How do you keep that in a healthy? [Speaker 3] (1:10:12 - 1:10:36) True, true individuality to me, it is self-responsibility and it is self-love. So I feel like once you walk that path and you, you realize that and give that to yourself as an individual, then you do inherently regard the responsibility towards others in a higher way because you realize the impact that you've had on yourself as an individual. [Speaker 1] (1:10:37 - 1:11:10) It's Jung's individuation process. You can't bypass the individual. It's like, you know, becoming, be doing the individuation is you're going to, you know, screw society. I'm just on my own and fuck everybody else. And it's, it's actually not at all. It's actually that you have to separate yourself first, get to know yourself, get in contact with yourself. And then you can come back and you can be more whole. You can be more full within yourself to then be a greater assistance to others. [Speaker 2] (1:11:10 - 1:11:51) It's part of that hero's journey, you know, going off on that internal journey and then coming back. Like ultimately we want, you know, collectivism, you know, that term, it's just like this, like, Oh, this negative term. And yeah, I get it in a certain way, but at the same time is like when we have a collective of true individuals, what will the world look like? Cohesiveness. Yeah. You know? And well, is that even possible? You know, like, but we can strive for it. And at the end of the day, it comes down to self-responsibility. Like you said, Joel, you do your inner work, control what you can control. You can't control everything else outside of you, you know? And then when you start there, then what happens? How do you influence your environment around the world around you, et cetera? [Speaker 3] (1:11:52 - 1:11:58) Well, we're only free as we're willing to assume responsibility in one sense. [Speaker 2] (1:11:59 - 1:12:18) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's always come back down to personal responsibility for me, you know? And I know it's like kind of like a buzzword and cliche, but it's so true. You know, where can we continue to look in the mirror and look inwards? I say that as our dog is like, She's whining a little bit. She's like, all right, all right. [Speaker 1] (1:12:18 - 1:12:20) He's not fully individuated yet. [Speaker 3] (1:12:23 - 1:13:00) Well, yeah, I mean, cause in, can you speak a little bit on, on Jung's individuation? Just a little basic rundown on that because in what I discovered, I guess, esoterically is that we all have one primary sense, which is neglected. And that inherently is the root for the shadow and individuation is basically recognizing that sense and it bringing forth and it coming out of the shadow. So create, to create the whole, what's your perspective on that? [Speaker 1] (1:13:02 - 1:16:07) Yeah. I mean, I think it's really similar in terms of for a young individuation was really going into one shadow was doing the unconscious work, bringing as much of the unconscious into consciousness as possible. I mean, it's sort of, it's never ending. It's not like one day you're just going to wake up and be like, Oh, I have nothing in my unconscious anymore. That's not a thing. That's not, that's not actually what you're striving for. That's impossible. It's the unconscious is a fathomless, you know, bottomless pit. However, the more work you do on that, the more you do become conscious of, or bring the unconscious more into the conscious and delve into the shadow aspects. You're then more capable of being with others in terms of the more you accept yourself, the more you know about yourself, the more you can know and accept others. So it's sort of this going into these deep, deep dark aspects that all the shadow is, is the stuff that you don't want to look at. And that's the good and the bad in terms of like, I know a lot of people use shadow work terms. It's like just the negative parts of you, but it's, it's not. And that's not how Jung used it. It was, it's actually everything. So it's your greatest, greatest, greatest potential that you're terrified of realizing as well as your deepest darkest secrets that you're terrified of realizing. So it's, it's the full gamut. And so it's, as you become more aware of that, as you become more acceptable of the fact that you have these two massive extremes within you, well, you have, you know, tons of different extremes within you. You're also going to be more apt to be with other people in their extremes and you're going to be able to hold for them, hold with them. And I mean, I kind of remember if Jung actually said this, but I know that I've heard about it a lot in different sort of spiritual communities and stuff is like, as anybody starts doing that work or anybody who's doing that work, it lifts the whole of consciousness. So even like Jung talked a lot about the collective unconscious. So there are these massive archetypal energies that everyone understands, like the mother archetype, every single person has the mother archetype within them. And that runs the gamut of every experience of having a mother because every single person has a mother, whether they knew them or not, or whatever, you know, you were in somebody for nine months, at least for however many months. And so the more that you work on these aspects, the more you're going to be able to be in relation. [Speaker 3] (1:16:08 - 1:16:26) Yeah. Because I guess once, once we begin to tune into our shadow and the language it speaks and what it's communicating to us, we kind of begin to understand the concept of projection and we're able to hold space more for others and understand where they're coming from in, in, in reaction. [Speaker 1] (1:16:28 - 1:16:40) Yeah, completely. I mean, it's one of those things of like, you stop judging people as harshly because you understand that you have the same thing. You could be doing exactly the same thing. [Speaker 3] (1:16:41 - 1:16:42) We're all just wounded children. [Speaker 1] (1:16:43 - 1:16:51) We're all just wounded children running around, running into each other. Or feeling really disconnected from each other at the moment. [Speaker 3] (1:16:52 - 1:17:06) Yeah. So getting, getting pretty close, I think to wrapping this thing up. So tell us where, where is it to for you from here? What's, what's your goal? You've got your, you've got your PhD now. What's next? [Speaker 1] (1:17:09 - 1:17:11) Next. I have an idea of a book. [Speaker 3] (1:17:11 - 1:17:12) Okay. [Speaker 1] (1:17:12 - 1:18:24) That I kind of want to, I want to write about these topics, especially and sort of skew it more in terms of current events of what's been happening for this past year of how that is effect or could be affecting culture. And really also focus a lot on the antidotes and tools and ways to sort of combat what's been happening and to regulate yourself better and to be in healthy contact with others. And I also really, even as you'd asked most brought it up earlier, because I didn't talk about this in the dissertation of the societal effects in terms of the unhealthy sexuality that comes through lack of touch and especially from males and all of that. So yeah, that's an idea that I really want to write about that in a much larger scope and more applicable way. I mean dissertations are not exactly a light common breathing for people. So definitely. [Speaker 2] (1:18:25 - 1:18:47) And obviously I know where to find you because you're next door, but for, yeah, just for people like, you know, what, what work are you doing now? I mean, you finished your PhD, but you're also trained a lot of different modalities and some inexperiencing. So if anyone that's watching this and is connected to you and your energy and wants to explore working with you in some capacity, what's the, what's the best way to go about doing that? [Speaker 1] (1:18:48 - 1:19:19) Yeah. Well, I see clients one-on-one at the moment. In person I can also do online in person. And I prefer just because I can actually be in touch and contact so I can utilize those tools a little bit better. I can also do intensive with intensives with people if they are out of the area of Topanga, California. Yeah. Are you guys going to put like information at the bottom? [Speaker 3] (1:19:20 - 1:19:21) We'll put whatever links you want down the bottom. [Speaker 1] (1:19:22 - 1:19:25) Details and all of that. [Speaker 2] (1:19:25 - 1:19:29) We can put website, Instagram, email, all that stuff. [Speaker 1] (1:19:30 - 1:19:32) And I'm on the SE website and listed on there. [Speaker 2] (1:19:32 - 1:19:34) By SE you mean traumatic experiencing? [Speaker 1] (1:19:35 - 1:20:45) Traumatic experiencing website, traumahealing.org. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing work. It's just about retraining the nervous system and all of my work is focused on how to create more freedom within people. Victor Frankl talks about it a lot, but that space between the stimulus and response. And so all of my work is based on how do we create a little bit more separation so there's more freedom in terms of how you're going to respond to life. So anything that's happening, you have more choice. You have more capacity to relate in a different way. So every single modality that I have trained in and that I focus on is based on that. Like, how do we create more and more, well, your own truth, like get more in tune with your own truth, have that freedom in how to maneuver through the world, with the world, because we are being impacted. We are impacting it and we are being impacted by it. We can't stop ourselves from being impacted by it. So how do we be more healthy in how we relate to it? [Speaker 2] (1:20:46 - 1:20:48) And have more overall resilience. [Speaker 3] (1:20:48 - 1:20:55) That gap is where freedom lives, right? In our ability to choose how to respond. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:20:55 - 1:21:13) I love that Victor Frankl quotes, my favorites. Cool. Well, listen, obviously, I'm so grateful that you can come on our show and we definitely want to have you back on again to discuss these topics. And then, you know, when you have that book and it comes out, you can come on our show again too. [Speaker 1] (1:21:15 - 1:21:16) That might be a while. [Speaker 2] (1:21:16 - 1:21:16) I feel nice. [Speaker 1] (1:21:17 - 1:21:19) It took me a while to do the dissertation. [Speaker 2] (1:21:20 - 1:21:32) Yeah, it's all right. No worries. This podcast will be going on when we just started, you know, you could be like episode 232, 287, you know what I'm saying? Sophie. [Speaker 1] (1:21:33 - 1:21:38) Well, thanks for having me on as my first interview as a full doctor. [Speaker 3] (1:21:38 - 1:21:55) I want to thank you for being so real, so raw, so honest, and for sharing your truth. We thank you. We honor your journey. We're grateful for the medicine that you've come here to offer. So thank you. Thank you very, very much. [Speaker 1] (1:21:55 - 1:22:00) Thank you for having me on. I'm a big fan of you guys. [Speaker 3] (1:22:02 - 1:22:10) I've got two now. So before we go, are you here for the truth? [Speaker 1] (1:22:10 - 1:22:12) I am here for the truth. [Speaker 2] (1:22:16 - 1:22:26) I mean, let me think about it for a little bit. Am I here for the truth? Yeah, I'm here for the truth. Hey guys. Are you here for the truth, bro? Come on, you can't get out of this. [Speaker 3] (1:22:29 - 1:22:47) I'm here for the truth, bro. Guys, thank you for listening to episode five of here for the truth. This has been an incredible conversation and dialogue and something so relevant with Dr. Sophie Fletcher, PhD. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time. Take care, everyone. Bye-bye.