David Whitehead & Josh Reid The Shape of the Earth

[Speaker 3] (0:00 - 0:42) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. I'm Joel Rafiti. I've got my co-host Yerasimos in the house as always. And in my personal opinion, this could be one of the most important podcasts we've recorded for a number of reasons, which I think you'll find out as you listen to it. The answers and the questions to this topic, I think, extend far beyond what most people consider it to. [Speaker 1] (0:43 - 0:53) And I think the ramifications are profound for the conclusions that we come to. But I'll let you be the discerner and the discoverer for yourself as you listen to the podcast. [Speaker 3] (0:54 - 2:31) Before we dive into that, I just want to remind everyone, applications for round five of Rise Above the Herd, our eight-week program designed specifically for truth seekers, is now open again. It's strictly 12 spots only. We're not taking any more people than that. And you can read all the testimonials for yourself if you head to riseabovetheherd.co. This is for those who are, simply put, to step into their power, to go through the individuation process, and to come out the other side as a badass motherfucker who knows what they want, knows what they stand for, knows what they value, knows what their vision is, and puts one foot in front of the other and kicks those goals despite what's going on around us. I think I dropped a bit of a Yerasimos American accent when I said a badass just then. But anyway, without any further ado, what can I say? Enjoy this episode. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. We have now four-time returning guest, David Whitehead in the house, name that is absolutely familiar to all our listeners. And for the first time, we have Josh Reid joining us. A little bit about Josh. Josh is from Western New York. He served just under 10 years in the U.S. Navy. He founded the Red Pill Project after an experience with information censorship and seeing how much of the world's mainstream media channels propagate biased and destructive propaganda. Since 2018, he's been exposing the unfolding global conspiracy and helping redefine how we look at information. [Speaker 1] (2:32 - 2:36) Gentlemen, such a pleasure to have you both here. Thanks for being here for the truth. [Speaker 2] (2:37 - 2:38) Thank you for having us. [Speaker 1] (2:39 - 3:58) Thank you for having us, boys. Good to be back. And I'm about Josh and I, I was actually watching Josh's show, like two years ago. And I'm like, wow, this guy really knows his stuff. And what I liked is he was covering a lot of the anon stuff. But he was also covering it from the angle of being like in the truth movement for a long time. And I went, okay, this is a different guy, because there's a lot of newbies coming out with channels and getting really popular and all that on these different things. But it's nice to see old school guys that know the whole breadth of this research community and really understand it. And I was like, oh, cool. So I had him on my show one time to talk about stuff. And then he brought me on his show. And it just kind of went back and forth. And we finally went, it's weird. Every time we both get on either of our shows, we get huge numbers. So people seem to like us. I'm like, we should do a show together. So now we do Earth Chronicles that is on Badlands Media. Hopefully they still like us. I don't know. But either way, we're there. And Josh also does a great show on his Red Pill project. So I'm glad to be here with all you guys. Yeah, man, for sure. We're chatting to Josh briefly before we jumped on and definitely got to do a solo episode in the future. A lot of information to be disseminated there, definitely. [Speaker 3] (3:59 - 4:24) So today, we are talking about a very polarizing topic, something that seems to be very emotionally charged, very triggering for many people, even particularly within this quote unquote truth community, which we seem to have found ourselves in, in whatever, to whatever extent that means. We're talking about the shape of the Earth. So I want to ask you guys, whoever feels called to start can start. [Speaker 1] (4:24 - 4:46) But why, like, so many people would come across this topic, recognize how polarizing it is, then, you know, throw their hands in the air and say, it doesn't matter anyway. Why does the shape of the Earth matter? So many other things that we could be arguing about or talking about or having conversations about. So why does it matter to you guys? Josh, why don't you go first, man? [Speaker 2] (4:46 - 8:18) Okay, I can go first. It matters because it constructs our worldview. If you want to look at it in that perspective, is that many people will say that the shape of the Earth doesn't matter, you know, whatever that we got problem, bigger problems to deal with. Flat earthers and globe earthers will both agree that the shape of the Earth does matter. Now the shape of the Earth matters to flat earthers for probably very specific reasons. And we can get into the psychological and the philosophical aspects of that. I know David will touch on that. But as for my perspective on it, or the greater perspective, is that if the shape of the Earth conforms to everything that we know about in the sense of our scientific inquiry, right? Think about this. I mean, when you start to research science in school, in high school, grade school, you go into college, you're taught very specific perspectives of how the world and the universe evolve and unfold. If that wasn't true, if the globe, if the Earth was not a globe or an oblate sphere, which we know it to be, then you have this kind of this, I guess, this place that your mind goes, that reality now becomes incredibly distorted. It would ruin everything that you could ever imagine that you've ever learned. You would not be able to trust your reality in its entirely. And then you have this breakdown, and that would lead to psychological breakdowns. And so, to me, knowing what I know about science, knowing what I know about psychology and the understanding of my own paradigm of understanding, what I've learned, the Earth is definitely a sphere, or oblate sphere. But the fact that it, the fact that it would, I'm losing my words here, but the fact that it is a sphere does matter. Because our whole worldview, our whole universal perspective is based upon this one kind of axiom, if you want to look at it like that. That if it was not a sphere, if it was a cube or a rectangle or a flat piece of whatever they want to call it, then the whole worldview changes, your whole paradigm changes. And this would crush people psychologically. I think that that people would, this would cause people to go crazy and insane. And so, to me, the Flat Earthers call this the biggest lie, is that this has been kept for us for generations, for thousands of years, or whatnot. Something that large and at that scale would be incredibly difficult to cover up at that scope. There would have to be millions of people involved in this, not only millions of people currently, but millions of people currently in millions of people in the past as well. To me, that's just not logically, it just doesn't make any sense. But if that was the truth, it would ruin our whole paradigm. I think that you'd see people start going crazy on this planet if they found out, let's say, that the Earth was somehow flat and that Flat Earthers were right. So I think it does matter for our psychological health, for our mental health. I think it does matter for our whole worldview and for our whole universal perspective. [Speaker 1] (8:19 - 8:42) Yeah, real quickly, I just want to just play quick Devil's Advocate here because a lot of people use that argument to say, well, how can 9-11 truth be, you know, how can that story be wrong? It would take so many people to be involved in covering it up. Now, again, it would take way more people and way more time to cover up, obviously, the, you know, the shape of the planet. But like, how do you, how do you navigate that? That that's an argument even going against other conspiracies. [Speaker 2] (8:44 - 9:50) Actually, that one's quite simple because the information pertaining to 9-11 or September 11th was really post facto, right? Is whether we believe that planes flew into the towers or it was early day CGI, which we've seen some video evidence of, is that the people involved prior to the event was very minimal, probably less than a few hundred people that plan that operation that allowed the operation to go forth. And whether they're still alive or not, I don't know. But after the fact, the people involved in the investigation, planning, evidence, and these types of things, those aren't hard things to do or the magician's trick, allowing people to see what you want them to see, giving them the knowledge and the information that you want them to see pertaining to that specific event. That's when thousands and thousands of more people get involved in the event. But you got to remember that it's a controlled disclosure of information at that point. So for September 11th, I think that an event like that would be very, very easy to manipulate in context to something like a globe or flat earth. [Speaker 1] (9:51 - 23:17) Cool. Yeah. And I mean, this is where I came in and I, so just a quick history of my experience with the whole flat earth paradigm. I've been in this community for a long time. 9-11 was what started me looking at the geopolitical aspect of everything. I was always into philosophy, comparative religion, ancient history, some of these esoteric subjects. But 9-11 really made me go, okay, I don't know what happened on 9-11, but I know what they told us was bullshit. I know that, but I still need to gather evidence to posit a theory, to actually posit a case to say, I have a counter claim to what the government is saying. And it turned out it wasn't just me, it was a whole bunch of other people. And there was actual evidence of it that you could reference easily. That is not so easily debunked. Things like seven out of the 10 commissioners of the commissioner report came out later and said they were underfunded, they were cut off at the knees, they couldn't really complete the full investigation the way they wanted to, et cetera. So therefore you're kind of like, okay, what the government told you was at the very least incomplete and at the very worst, the total fabrication because they were covering something up. I started going into that from there. Then we get into all the other subjects that this community, what you call the alternative research truth community has gotten into. And because it's such a new movement, we're very vulnerable to these types of psychological operations, which is what I believe this really is at the end of the day. Now, the other side's going to say, no, you're under a psychological operation of it being a sphere and all of that, but that's where you have to get into the details and the evidence. But that's just my opinion. And I think this matters because when I saw this take over the discussion in our community in 2014, 2014 was the year I was there. I watched it happen in front of my face where before this came out, you could talk about any of these subjects that you wanted to openly without having your entire chat spammed with this discussion. After 2014, it just took the internet by storm and it all started with the 200 proofs that prove the earth is flat by Eric Dubé. And I'm not going to get into him or personal attacks against anybody or anything like that. I'm not here to do that. But I have some suspicions about the way this rolled into the community as a divisive and also a tracking apparatus to track the methodology of thought and research within our community that was actually becoming quite formidable in the information war back in the mid 2000s. And it makes you wonder why they would want to go to this level of an extreme to put this out. And now you could argue, well, it's just regular people coming up with this and then saying, oh, my God, we had a flat earth society for how long and everything else. But this has become to a point where you can't now talk about it, any subject whatsoever, without having this flat earth discussion going on in your chat room, especially when you touch the subject of, say, like UFOs, anything to do with space. Because I watched flat earth go from, yep, it's a flat pizza in space to, you know what the arguments about the circumpolar navigation and the stars that spin in different directions depending on the observer, whether in the southern hemisphere, the northern hemisphere, the lunar eclipses, the rising and setting of the sun, the observation of the sun. As the flat earth industry started to come up, so did an industry of flat earth debunking. Right. And the debunking was done by people in the beginning that didn't really know what they were doing scientifically. And then eventually it caught the attention of serious scientists and people that really do know what they're talking about with this stuff. Right. And astronomers and even amateur amateur backyard astronomers started to take this on. And I thought that was interesting. I'm like, OK, so now there's like a major war happening about the shape of the earth while our earth is being taken over by this global cabal or whatever. Right. So I thought that's interesting. And then when I started to ask flat earthers back in 2014, 2015, give me the why. Give me your best assessment as to the motive. See, with 9-11, I can easily establish a motive even in any kind of investigation. Establishing the motive isn't the be all and end all of proving it, but it's a part of the process of investigating it. Right. If you're going to find out who is a serial killer or who murdered somebody, it's a good place to start is to start with the motive. And that's going to lead you to the actual culprit. Right. Or the evidence to show who the culprit is. So when I would ask these people, they would always give me a religious answer. Every single one to this day. Right. There's very few atheist flat earthers and not that it doesn't really. I'm just thinking that's interesting. I'm just taking notes as an objective person going, what's happening to our community? Why is this all devolving into a discussion with the shape of the earth, even when we're talking about something totally unrelated? How come we can't get people off this and and focus on what's happening on the earth, which was my original goal. And I realized this is about something completely different because I got the answer again and again, that the reason that they're lying about flat earth is to cover up number one land. That they don't want us to have access to. And number two, they're trying to cover up God. This is a cover for God. This is a satanic agenda. The globe is a satanic agenda perpetrated by the Jesuits, which is kind of hilarious because don't forget, it was the Vatican that burned all the people and imprisoned all the people that were trying to say otherwise, like Giordano Bruno, Copernicus, all these were what's his name, Galileo and all these guys. But either way, I found it interesting that that was the first argument that was given. And it got me thinking because of all the work I was doing with Michael on Unslaved about psychology. And I realized that in our community, Michael was right that before even talking about flat earth, Michael was saying he did an analysis and said our movement is absent the discussion of human psychology. It's not being had. It's all political surface. Look at that. Here's the boogeyman. Here's all the evil, which is fine. You need that. You need the analysis of that. But that's the end. They just let you walk out of the theater of their presentation without any kind of context as to why it's happening. And that's because they don't get into psychology. And it's because predominantly in the alternative research community is the sort of classic Christianity, fundamentalist Christianity. And I'm not here to attack any religions or anything, but it is interesting to me that it is that mindset that is swept up into this type of narrative because they're already operating from a similar narrative. Then I started going, OK, what's interesting to me is why aren't all Christians flat earthers? Because you got all the flat earthers that were saying, well, it says it in the Bible. Yet I got a friend of mine and I know many Christian researchers that completely disagree with flat earth and completely disagree that the Bible says that it's flat. So they go through the scripture versus they do the translations. They show it and they say, hey, they're using descriptive language to talk about you as the foundation. Like if Paul is the foundation of the church or whatever, then they're talking about you as the foundation and we're talking about the foundations of the earth. They're not literally talking about the foundations in that way. That was their argument. People can make what they want. And so I realized the importance of this discussion is about perspective. That's really what it boils down to. And all the debates I've listened to and the one that I tried to take part in that turned into a big shit show. There's a there's no discussion about psychology in relation to perspective, right? Because you can't get there because it's too personal. Right. So you say, OK, why are you preferring this to be the case? Because if you're advocating for it to this level where it becomes so emotional that we can't have any other discussion and there's no like you're giving me unfalsifiable positions. Every time I bring a piece of evidence that says, yes, but all you got to do is do this. There's it's unfalsifiable. And they're going to say the same to me, which means now we've got two completely polar camps within our movement that are all fighting over something that, in my opinion, isn't the biggest conspiracy, because the biggest conspiracy is the inner conspiracy, which we've talked about many times and we can get into. But so that was me. I went, OK, there's something to the motivation behind this as to why it's so attractive to people. And there's a few elements really quickly. They want a closer sun in this model or the model that we're still waiting for, but roughly the model that we think there is that for this. They want a closer sun. They want no infinite space. They want Earth. It's most of them are also young Earth creationists. OK, not all, but most of them. This is all about hiding God, the whole thing. Right. And I started to notice themes in the narrative behind the explanation of the motive that were identical to what we were looking into of the divisions between hermeticism and Gnosticism coming out of Egypt, which those Gnostic elements made it into Christianity, whether Christians or Gnostics, whatever, want to admit it or not. And that's what we did. That whole presentation on enslaved and Michael did a bunch of work on it. And I started to go interesting. Forget about the detailed arguments about. Herbs and calculators and all that shit. All right. Just put that aside. Get to the meat of it. And then this is what I tried to do in our debate, which I'd actually cleared with our debate opponents before the debate. And I remember asking, can we come on and talk? I want to have a conversation about why this is the cover up, why this is the biggest conspiracy. Why are they lying about this? Why are they going to thousands of years of all the navigators, all the astronomers, all the people that ever worked? Remember, NASA is not the only space agency that exists. We've got India up in space taking photographs. We've got China up there. We've got Iran. We've got other countries that are up there. We've got private organizations that are going up there. We've got, you know, just reams of data. We've got geodetic surveyors. I know some of them personally. I've had many fascinating conversations with them. And you go, why would all these people be lying or deceived to this level? And they'll say, well, it's because their perspective has been altered. So then you go, OK, so it's an internal mechanism where when what you're telling me that I'm not seeing the sun setting at the same size, the same angular size relative to the observer, I'm not seeing that set below the horizon. It's going away from us. That's what they're going to say. And I mean, but that's not what I see. I don't see what you're saying I'm supposed to see. Forget all the calculations and everything else. I went, that's what I'm not seeing. So then they'll say, yeah, but your perspective, then it's because you've been mind controlled to see that. And now you're so you start getting into this. You're telling me what I'm seeing. And that's where I went. That's interesting. So I'm not I'll wrap this up because it's long. But just basically, I realized there's a psychological component as to whether people agree with my position, which is that it's not flat and that space is not fake. I don't believe that. I believe that is a if they were going to bring a psychological operation into this movement, it's perfect for this crowd, because this crowd is highly skeptical of everything the government, the media says. It's not far to push everybody right over the edge to say every single thing ever. All the sum total of human knowledge to this point is all a lie. What does that do? It's the perfect way to detach you from reality, distort your reality and keep now empty you. So now that you're like, OK, well, now that everything's alive, who's going to tell me the truth? Well, Eric Dube is going to tell you the truth. And all the rock stars are going to they're going to tell you the truth. Now, that's not to say those people, there's people in that movement that aren't genuinely seeking the truth. I'm not saying that. It's just that I'm trying to look at this from the angle that we live in an age of psychological operations. And why is there zero suspicion amongst this group? Why is there zero open mindedness to this other side to say, hey, what if this was put in here as a psychological operation to alter our perspective? Right. And that's where I went, OK, the debate has unfolded. And here we are today. So that's just a quick little summary. But go ahead. [Speaker 2] (23:17 - 24:02) Well, David, the easy answer to your question is something that we've talked about at length, is that. This. Idea that the earth is flat is a reiteration to their own proof of God. Is that there is this aspect within this this mindset of these people that God created the earth and the heavens of which since they believe or have been psychologically led to believe that the earth is flat, therefore, flat earth equates to their God, Jehovah, as the creator. And so by by attacking flat earth or by showing them that flat earth is incorrect, you are in sense attacking God because those beliefs are melded psychologically within their mind. [Speaker 1] (24:03 - 24:41) Yeah. You just summed up the whole point much faster than I did. Thanks, man. It's early. We'll get warmed up here. Thank you. I like how you called it a psychological operation to push people off the edge. No pun intended. Maybe a pun in there. Sorry, guys. I love you. But we have to talk about this because it's it to me. My question is, for example, like what what is so attractive about it? Right. Does anybody have any other points to bring up as to why you think this is so attractive? Like why is it pulling in record numbers of young people on TikTok right now? [Speaker 2] (24:41 - 24:48) Mystery and intrigue. There's something beyond the ice wall. There's land. There's new continents we can explore. We can go out there. They're keeping this from us. [Speaker 1] (24:49 - 24:59) I think it also reaffirms certain people's internal beliefs that everything's a lie, you know, like you were talking about before. So they go, see, even the shape of the fucking earth is a lie. [Speaker 3] (24:59 - 25:08) Yeah. Well, David hit the nail on the head because isn't that the premise of Gnosticism? Right. That I'm trapped in this prison planet that I can't seem to escape from. [Speaker 1] (25:09 - 29:26) And so hence that reinforces my own self-loathing, my own sense of low self-esteem. Right. But you're bringing it to the personal level, Joel, which is why I love your guys show. And regardless of anybody listening, what shape you think the planet is, you've got to listen to these guys about the inner work. Right. Because if there is an issue with perspective, the question is who's got the issue. The people that see all the evidence that to me is blatantly obvious that indicate that we live on a spherical planet or the people that believe that all the evidence points to the fact that we live on a flat plane. Some people think it's infinite, whatever. It's all a matter of perspective. So what does that do? It brings us back to the question of, I think it was like William Blake that said it, that we see the world through the lens of the self. So the condition of the self is a determining factor. So just like your inner state, your inner psychic state, okay, is a factor in what you're interpreting as reality external to you. And this is actually a subject of philosophy. It's not even a subject of necessarily science yet. You start with philosophy, right? And it's the idea that there was many philosophers that debated these types of points about perspective. I'm trying to remember if it was Kierkegaard or some of the, I'm trying to remember, but one of the, there were some philosophers that came in and were saying that, oh, it was Immanuel Kant, sorry. Immanuel Kant came in and he gave his proof for God or his proof of faith, how faith and belief and religion, we have to clip the wings of reason to make way for faith. That was his argument. So he, right as sort of the old dogmatic medieval version of Christianity and religion around the world was sort of losing their following because of the age of science and reason and the enlightenment period and all this open-mindedness started to come in. There was a sort of resistance that was taking place in philosophy to even accept God of any kind at that point or religious view of any time. It was just at that moment where they went, man, a lot of what we've been getting brainwashed with by the churches is a lie, right? So we need to think outside the box. And as that happened, there were philosophers like Kant that came in and said, and maybe he even made a valid point. He said, well, if we have such an analytical scientific mind about everything and we take God out of the equation, there's no meaning to life and life loses its zest. So we have to clip the wings of our reason to make way for faith, which bring meaning to the world. So he was basically saying that faith brings meaning, right? And yet other philosophers came in later and I think, you know, decimated that or at least added more to it to say, no, no, it's way bigger than that. But I felt like, okay, that's something that's important to think about in terms of this discussion, because if we're viewing the reality, and this was another of Kant's arguments, is that we're not even seeing the whole reality as it is. Our mind is only seeing what? 0.005% of the light spectrum. We have horrible night vision. There's, you know, your psychic state, your mood, everything about you on that day can change the way you're seeing something. How come two people can look at the same thing and come back saying they see two different things? It just became a Rubik's Cube. And I feel like now we're back to having these same discussions over and over again in different forums. And I think Flat Earth is one of those. It's a struggle for meaning. It's a struggle for significance. When I talk to people, number one, about why they think that the idea of a spherical Earth and that there's space that has other planets and suns and all that, why that's so offensive to them, or why that looks like it's some kind of a conspiracy to them is because they say, well, they want you to feel insignificant. So they gave you a philosophy that would amplify your feeling of insignificance, which is this idea that you live in this infinite universe teeming with life and all this stuff. And you're not the special one. You're not the only one. Right. And they didn't like that. And I think that's what this is a rebellion against. It makes them feel insignificant. [Speaker 3] (29:26 - 29:26) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (29:27 - 31:11) Right. Do any of the sands on the seashore feel insignificant? One grain of sand? What about look at how many fish live in the ocean? Does all the fish feel insignificant? How many leaves are on trees all over the planet? Does a leaf feel insignificant? What about the cells in your body? Your body's made up of 100 trillion cells. And I don't know if anybody knows what trillion is, but I don't even think we can imagine it. That's how big that number is. OK, 100 trillion cells make up your body. Does every single cell in your body feel insignificant because there's 100 trillions of cells and things like this? And then I started to go, well, wait a minute. Human beings and every form of life starts out as a sphere, a perfect sphere. The female creates an egg sac that's spherical for a reason, because it can withstand the perfect amount of pressure. It's perfect geometry, because I did a lot of that research into sacred geometry. And I'm like, man, the spherical geometry is one of the most beautiful things that you can ever research. Why are we hating what's with the disdain for the shape of a sphere, first of all, because then you're a globehead and spheres or they're trying to make a sphere look like it's some kind of evil satanic conspiracy. I'm like, that's the female shape. That's one of the most efficient structures in the universe. That's why it turns out as a sphere. Your head is a sphere. Your eyes are a sphere. Your cells are spheres. You started as a sphere. Every form of life started as a sphere. It only makes sense, right, that this is what it would be. And then they'll be like, no, but this is an artificial reality because we watched the Truman Show and we think it was a documentary. And I went, well, maybe it's just metaphor. Anyways, I'm going off on a tangent, but the idea is not to go within to get this answer, I think. [Speaker 2] (31:11 - 31:23) You have to reiterate the point that one thing that Flat Earthers insinuate but don't talk about is that the Earth is the center of the universe. And so you have the narcissistic component that comes into this as well. [Speaker 1] (31:25 - 32:52) And thanks for bringing that up because doesn't that fill the point of what we're saying is that maybe the human mind would prefer that the Earth is the center of the universe. Or maybe the human mind would prefer to think that we are the only planet that has life on it like this, that we are the special chosen people. Every religious group that's ever existed and still exists is espousing the idea that they are the true chosen people of their God or that their prophet or their book or their idea is the sacred one season view of the world. Every single one. Right. Yeah. And yet you can't all simultaneously be right and wrong. Like it has to be someone has to be right. Someone has to be wrong. And so this is why I don't throw out all of science just because here I am critiquing. This is another point. They bring up a lot about, well, look at the state of science today. And we've done a lot on this, guys, the scientism, the medical science, the corruption of science. But that's a corruption of science. That doesn't mean science, which is scientia, which is just, you know, studying the observation of a phenomena. Sorry, that's a that's a hit at Nathan we had in this debate. It was kind of funny. I said when he said, what's the first step of science? You don't know what science is. And I went, well, it's to make an observation like you're wrong. It's to make an observation of a phenomena. And I'm like, OK, it's implied anyway. That was funny. How dare you, David? How dare I make such a blunder? [Speaker 3] (32:53 - 32:53) You know what? [Speaker 1] (32:53 - 33:05) You make an observation. You make a theory about what you're seeing. You you keep honing it and you try to find the truth. You know, there it is in a layman's nutshell. It's not. Go ahead. It's not the human mind. [Speaker 3] (33:05 - 33:39) There's no collective mind. It depends on the individual, like we mentioned, perceiving it, because for me, like. So the individual that knows he is nature, the infinitesimal aspect of the universe makes me feel so significant because it aligns all the hermetic principles within me. It perfectly aligns with the notion of as above, so below, as within, so without. I recognize that I am infinite. I recognize that I expand. Right. Like it's again, it's the individual who's perceiving it. And to me, ties in exactly with all the concepts of Gnosticism, which we've spoken about in the past. [Speaker 2] (33:40 - 34:36) But isn't it also a limitism? Because what they do is think about the fundamental. And I'm not attacking any Christians in the audience or anything like that. But but their whole world is contained within a book. Their whole world does not escape that book. It's limitism. So they limit who they are and what they are. There is no expansion beyond what is put in the scriptures. There is no growth from that point. There is no evolution of the spirit of the mind of consciousness. After they die here, they go to heaven and that's it. And they're with God. And that's said and done. It reinforces a rigid black and white view of reality. That's right. That's right. As for David's comment that nobody can conceptualize a trillion. I want everybody to understand this. If you were to count to a million, it would take a little less than a year. If you're going to count to a billion, it's 13 years. If you're going to count to a trillion, 33,000 years. So that's crazy. [Speaker 1] (34:36 - 34:37) It's a conspiracy. [Speaker 2] (34:38 - 34:43) Oh, there you go. Because of what's in Freemasons. [Speaker 1] (34:45 - 39:23) Oh, that's the other thing. That's the other thing. Okay. We need to say this. I'm sick of hearing. And this doesn't just have to do with flat earth. It has to do with. Oh, my God. Pick your thing. Okay. Yeah. If you don't agree with me and you don't agree with my favorite YouTubers, you are an insider shill Illuminati agent being paid by the Jew penguins that run the Antarctic circle, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, listen, okay, we're allowed to disagree on this shit. Okay. We're allowed. We have to. In fact, I say this to the flat earth community. Thank you, flat earth. Thank you for existing. Thank you for showing up. We need good arguments. We need points to reflect on. We need to find the flaws that are in the models that we're looking at. And it's important sometimes to have an exaggerated theory to say, hey, let's just put this out there and let them throw the arrows back and forth at that. And we'll figure out all the details that we're missing. So that's a good thing. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with questioning the establishment. That's what I made my whole work out of. But you can get irrational about it. You can go down too far. There's something called extremes where you can go to an extreme. And there was also the discussion earlier that we were talking about with how, Josh, you were mentioning, oh, this seems like one of those things that they couldn't ever contain the conspiracy or protect the conspiracy because it's just too vast, too big. I agree with that. The counter to that, typically, when it comes to conspiracy research is that, well, what about compartmentalization, right? This is usually what they're going to say. And that's an argument that I use when I'm talking about, say, Cult of the Medics or this global technocracy that's being brought into place on the Earth, regardless of its shape. But with this case, you're throwing out some of the most brilliant minds, some of the most brilliant humanitarians, some of the most brilliant thinkers and observers from all over the planet, like 55, like, was it over almost 4000 years ago, 35, 4000 years ago, there were Indian scientists or Indian thinkers that were already calculating the spherical nature of the Earth, that were doing it before Eratosthenes, that if you go to the Bok people, the Bok Saga people that are, they're the last line of they come from the Danish, sort of Swedish culture, that the origin of that the progenitors of that, and their knowledge is so ancient, it goes so far back into history, it's unbelievable. And when I asked the top guys in the Bok about this, they laughed. And they said, No, the sphere is the feminine shape. And there's, they're more into the inner Earth concept that there's a massive inner Earth complex going on, it's like a cavernous realm. And, and then there's other thinkers as well. And then you had the Greeks, and then you had all these scientists and whatnot, even with their flaws, they made observations that anybody can check on their own. That's the thing. And that's where I start to say there's something suspicious here, because we were told by this flat Earth community, don't trust science, don't blindly trust authority, don't trust NASA, don't trust the footage from the ISS, or any of these things, go and do your own independent research. And when I went and did that, and I researched all of their claims, and watched the debates, I logged, I don't know, hundreds of debates watching to try to get an idea of this. And then I spent about a good solid year back in 2014, going through the chats and everything and going through these discussions to try to look and what because you got to figure out both sides of the argument, if you're going to get a handle on it. And I came out and I said, I'm not impressed by the arguments, because all the arguments that appear to be like, oh, the gotcha black swans, they've all been taken apart by other other thinkers. And so that again, will leave you the individual to sit back and go, am I only hearing one side of the argument? Because I've been accused of that people go, you just need to watch this YouTube video. This is the YouTube video that you're going to need to watch. And I went, but I've seen it. And I think you're just misinterpreting what you're seeing. Because here's my own personal observations that counter what you think you're seeing in this video. And it's just not accepted. So that means you're now in a point where your own observation is discounted. And I saw that even in our debate we had Josh, yeah, but my own personal observation was, was just, they're like, no, that's not good enough. [Speaker 2] (39:23 - 42:27) We were having a Twitter discussion that was very, very similar with a few flat earthers. One is said they were flat earth expert. And me and David, I presented a simple question on Twitter, show me verifiable evidence that the earth is flat. Not that the earth is not a sphere, that the earth is flat. Show me the ice wall, show me the land above it, show me a viewpoint from sky that shows the firmament, give me something. And in two weeks of this conversation going on, they had yet to provide one piece of any evidence whatsoever to prove that earth was flat. And they said, well, prove the earth is a globe. I'm like, here's satellite imagery. Here's this, here's that. And I could do it over and over. Oh, that's fake. That's fake. That's fake. And so there's this, it's crazy to think about how to argue with these people, because it's a lot of circular logic, because what they'll do is they will ask a question with a question. They'll throw a question back in your seat. And then when you answer, they deny it and CGI it's fake, whatever. And one of the things that I've always wanted to ask the flat earthers, and I've started to ask this question before, is what are their thoughts on the Great Pyramid of Egypt? Because I think we could all understand that, you know, from various different points of research, that the Great Pyramid is a lot older than 3500 BC. That it's most likely back from the later Dryas period, 10,500 years ago. And in this case, we know that there's been some really good research done on this in the sense of sacred geometry. There's one tensor that's used, a 43,200 tensor. This is the amount of seconds, I believe, at 12 hours. And this was really, really pertinent to the ancient Egyptians. But when you use that ratio of 1 to 43,200, the dimensions of the Earth all start to formulate. Number one is, if you actually take the latitude and longitude of the Great Pyramid, it's equivalent to the speed of light, which is kind of crazy. But if you actually measure the perimeter of the pyramid, and you multiply or divide it by the 43,200, you get the equatorial radius of the Earth. And there's actually two perimeters. There's another perimeter that's a little bit wider. There's the base, and then there's the base that the pyramid is built on. If you take that one, you get the polar. So one, you get the polar radius. One, you get the equatorial. How are you getting a radius if the Earth is flat? And wouldn't the ancient Egyptians have known this when they aligned this pyramid, the true north? I mean, it's complete absurdity. Because what they do is, well, the Great Pyramid was there to test our love of God, because it's there to test our knowledge that the Earth is really flat. It was built by the globe-earther. It's just absurd to think about this. And we can go to many other ancient sites, many other ancient monuments, and validate the same thing over and over and over again, that the equatorial and the polar radius of the Earth were built directly into it. [Speaker 3] (42:28 - 42:38) So what are the key arguments? What are the key calling cards and drawing points for flat or flatter? [Speaker 1] (42:39 - 46:32) Well, what they do, this is what's interesting. That's a good question, because Joel, we've asked a lot of them and they don't have a model. Yeah, they don't have evidence for flat Earth. They have evidence against globe Earth. That's all it is, is it's just detraction. It's not it's it's not in a lot of cases. It's no, no, that's not it. And you come out and you get like, I've tried it, like I've watched the debates are almost entertaining at this point, because you have now physicists and astronomers and geodetic surveyors and scientists and even people who aren't professional scientists that but just know these debates. They're going in and they're putting these arguments forward that just go right over these guys heads. And there's no response. It's just no, that can't be because the Earth is flat. So therefore, that can't be. And it's like, well, OK, what evidence would you accept? So that's where I started to go. Well, what the best question I should have asked and what you should ask if you have a discussion with a flat earther is to say, OK, all that aside about you saying you're not watching the boat disappear bottom up, you're seeing it vanish or you're not watching the sunrise and sun, whatever it is. Aside from that, because now we've been fighting over those points for literally since 2014 and for thousands of years now at this point. So what evidence do you have to show that it's flat? And also, I asked that one guy we were talking to, Josh, on Twitter. I showed a picture. I don't have it up in front of me now. But if you go look up the Indian Space Project in India, they get jack shit from NASA. OK, in terms of funding and help, it was it was almost like it's quite the story. There's lots of good documentation on it. You can go check it out. But they went up and they were one of the missions that went out past the moon with one of their one of their cameras or whatever. I can't remember what they were. They were doing a different mission because remember, they're not out there going, oh, we got to get up there and try to show all the flat earthers that they're wrong. They're not they don't they think this they're not there to do that. They're doing their own observations. They go out and they take a shot of the earth. Now, it's not the full earth. It's it's just one angle of the earth because it's I think distance and size and scale are lost to a lot of people in the imagination. Right. Just like Josh was saying about the number trillion. It's hard to imagine it. So you say, look how far out we are here. And this they took a shot of the earth and it's right there. And so I said, OK, they've just gone up and taken a shot of the earth. And it clearly shows that it's a sphere because they'll show the dog cam footage and all this stuff. I'm like, no, no. Here, the Indian Space Station, they went up and they go, yeah, but they're lying because they're an official government space agency and they're controlled by NASA and all the top whatever. I'm like, OK, here's the photo they produce. That's evidence for a spherical earth. You have to just you have to prove to me that they lied, that they covered it up, that it's CGI. What's the evidence for that? Crickets. You don't hear it. Right. So then, OK, at least we've got pictures now here. Let's look at the blue marble picture. Let's really look at it. Well, that's a composite image that analyzed it to composite CGI that CGI. Right. But that's the that's so that's what I mean. That's just not arguments all the way through. It's not. So I go, OK, but where's your photo of what you're talking about? Well, here's all the level of the water finds its level. And it goes back to all these arguments that you're like, yes, but that that's expected in our model. That's expected. All the things you're saying is expected and explained ad nauseum. So you're not it's just going to it's an unending battle is what I'm going to say, because they're in an unfalsifiable position where they're not they're not showing you positive evidence for they're only saying, no, that's fake. That's CGI. That's a conspiracy. That can't be like this. Here's all our laser tests and everything else you go. Yeah, but here's all the laser tests that disprove those. There must be missing some points of data. [Speaker 2] (46:33 - 49:19) And it's just razor with Oxman's razor, if you look at that, is it more pertinent that the earth is flat or that those people just don't understand mathematics, science, physics, geometry and so forth? And it becomes more relevant that they just don't understand how the science works. To your point as well, is that. Flat earthers believe, and I guess most of them don't have a model anymore because their models keep getting shut down. They used to have a model, but now that doesn't work. Flat Earth Dave has a little app where the sun goes around like this. And, you know, we tried to figure out for the longest time that the sun is moving parallel to a flat earth. How does it get back to the other side to rise? And some people were saying, like, it goes under and like, oh, so it goes under. I mean, but Flatterface says, no, it goes like this and it goes in concentric circles and then comes back out like this. And it's absurdity. But they say that we live on a flat earth with a non-rotating plane as that the earth is not revolving and it's not rotating around the sun. And they say the biggest example they give for this is if you have a helicopter sitting out on your front yard and the helicopter just hovered there for 24 hours, when you come out the next day, it's gonna be the same spot. If the earth was rotating, the helicopter should move with it. And I say, okay, well, go on an airplane. If you're on an airplane and you're moving at 450 miles per hour in an airplane, when you walk back to the bathroom, do you fly back to the back of the airplane at 450 miles per hour? No, that's absurdity. If you flew a drone above your seat in the airplane, would that drone fly backwards at 450 miles per hour? Because they're saying the earth is revolving around itself at a thousand miles per hour. So their objective is that that helicopter should be moving at a thousand miles per hour backwards. If we're moving like that, we have something called a relative reference plane. When you're in a plane, you're in a relative reference plane. The air in the plane is moving at 450 miles per hour along with you. You fly a drone in a plane, the drone doesn't fly backwards. It's moving with the momentum of the plane and the air and everything in there. They say, well, that's in a container. Show me the container. And what they don't understand is the container is actually built by the distribution of various gases and liquids within our atmosphere that's contained by the gravitational force and secondarily, the electromagnetic force, the earth's magnetic field within our earth that produces actually a very, very good container for gas, not a container, but a good barrier for the earth. We do have atmospheric release and all this stuff. So a lot of the stuff that they say. [Speaker 1] (49:19 - 50:08) Josh, just a quick question. I want to ask you, I was going to ask you this because we got pinned down on this in that debate and it took us off guard because of the way that they introduce it. And I find that some of these guys, especially people like Nathan Oakley or whatever, who does this for a living, okay, knows how to get under people's skin. It absolutely worked. Well done to you. But anyways, they caught us off guard with this one. I'm not a big physics expert here, but have you thought about that since, which is what you're talking about when they're asking about the container and the gases? Because this is also Patrick's favorite argument as well. And it's very detailed. It gets really into it. And one thing I heard from somebody that I was emailing with, he's a friend of mine from Australia. Uh, he's a mathematician and he said, it's a gradient and that's what they're missing. It's a gradient. [Speaker 2] (50:09 - 50:09) I call it a substrate. [Speaker 1] (50:10 - 50:12) So do you want to explain that for people? [Speaker 2] (50:12 - 55:43) Yeah. So one of the things that you can always get with flat earthers, and this is one of the things that I did with flatter Dave as well, is that they say that gravity doesn't exist, that instead it's density. Now density is kind of interesting because what is density? It's mass times volume. Well, what's mass? Well, you need an acceleration downward in order to accommodate for mass. So you need a force that's actually pulling you in order to have mass. So their whole definition of density is that you just, well, what is density? And they can't really explain it, but if you had the gravitational force of a flat earth edge, flat earthers, describe it. What you'd have is you had to have substrates of density, right? The heavier things will fall down to the bottom and the lighter things will stack on top. Well, here's the thing that I asked Nathan Oakley. So I said, then what is air? Because Patrick and them were, they were using this well, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, I said, well, what is air? And Nathan came in and says it's a homogeneous, asymmetric, a homogenous ace something, something, basically it's a well distributed pattern of gases. I said, no, no, no, hold on. What is air? And he would repeat it and yell at me. I said, no, no, no. What is air? Air is oxygen, nitrogen, argon, carbon dioxide, water vapor, all different gases at different densities that are in, as Nathan said, a homogeneous mixture. And I said, if gravity was density, then you would not have air. Air would not exist. The reason why is because nitrogen, carbon dioxide, water, water would fall down to the ground. Carbon dioxide would stack on top of it. Nitrogen. Then you would have oxygen. Then you would have argon. Then you would have all these lesser gases all stack upon it. Air would not be able to exist if their density model of gravity actually existed. Now, they didn't like that and they attacked me about this. But you're right, David. We have basically a substrate model, a gradient model, in that as you get higher up in altitude above the round earth, you get less and less concentration of gases because they're held and bound to the earth, number one, by the gravitational force, number two, by electromagnetism. And here's the thing, is we can do it and work it out mathematically. We can understand why it happens mathematically. And anybody can go out there and do that. But you ask a flat earther for the formula for density as gravity, they can't do it. Secondarily, if things were based strictly on density, there was no external force pulling objects down to the ground, then everything would, everything's velocity towards ground would be dependent upon its density. But we know that that's not true because we actually have an acceleration, a change in velocity over time of how things move towards the earth at 9.81 meters per second square, right? So the thing is, is that if it was completely dependent upon density, then we wouldn't have an acceleration that would be consistent and constant. And so they don't think through a lot of these things. And when you call them out on it, that's when they attack you, that's when they scream and yell and cry over you. I mean, there's so many examples of flat earthings. For anybody out there who's like maybe on the boat, they're like, is this a flat earth or is this a round earth? What I want you to do is I want you to go outside tonight at sunset. And I want you to look towards our arbitrary horizon, the horizon, and I want you to watch sunset. And I want you to locate a plane in the sky that has a contrail. Now on a flat earth model, the sun moves horizontal, parallel horizontal above the earth. And what you're seeing at sunset is the sun just getting further and further and further away until it disappears. Understanding that, does the sun ever come below that horizon? They say, no, it's just moving further and further and further away until it moves away. But that also equates that the sun never drops below a certain altitude of the flat earth plane. If that's the case, then you will never have at sunset, the sun's rays shining upward below something, a cloud or a contrail of a plane. And so if you go look at a contrail of a plane at sunset, the bottom part is illuminated. The only way in the world that the bottom part of that contrail of a plane on the horizon can be illuminated is if the sun is below it in angular distance. It's the only way. Not only that, is what color is the sunset? It's red. Why? Because of the angular position, the fractional distance, the angle of incidence that the sun is at, at setting, going below the horizon. If the sun was just moving further and further and further away, it wouldn't be red. You would never hit that angle of where red refraction would actually occur. And so these are very simple things that you can do to go validate these things for yourself. [Speaker 1] (55:44 - 58:13) Can I just add on to that real quick? Yeah. Because that's brilliant. And that's what I tried. I tried to bring up what I hear. I was preparing for this discussion. First of all, the discussion we had on our show, I was preparing for it to be a positive discussion amongst patriots. That's what I was asking for. That's what I wanted. I didn't want it to be. I was trying to change the policy, like the typical format of Flat Earth Global Earth from the typical let's just smash each other's heads in. I wanted to have a discussion and go why and have a debate, but like keep it loose. And so that's what I was preparing for. And I didn't even know who Nathan Oakley was. And I found out. But either way, I brought up observational evidence because we can go on forever about the history of science and who's corrupt and what's this and mathematics and all that stuff. But I'm a simple man in that regard. I'm not an expert in that. So I'm going to go with observation. Right. And that's usually what a lot of Flat Earthers argue for. So my observation is we do need some equipment to observe correctly, because a lot of I've heard a lot of them make the argument that you should only trust your senses and nothing else. Right. Because maybe NASA can hack the cameras and they built all the cameras and everything. So it could be all deceptive. And look at the airplane windows, their fisheye lenses and and all this stuff. Right. You get into it. But I say but you have to establish that human sight is limited. Right. We would I'm sure we can all agree human sight is limited. Like if I'm telling you we're only seeing zero point zero zero five percent of the light spectrum and we have shitty night vision and there's all kinds of tricks on you can see the illusionists that come out and show you something and you think it's something but it's not and it's something else or the inkblot where some it's one inkblot on a piece of a canvas and every observer sees something different based on what they're seeing in their mind from the inkblot the holographic photographs these types of things show you that human sight can be tricked. On their side they'll say that's a positive argument for the flat earth. I'm going to say no it's a positive argument for the fact that you need proper equipment to do correct observations that don't have those limitations that the human eye has. Okay. So you can rely to the human eye to a point but for example if we're going to do solar observations which is what we're doing with the sun you can't look directly into the sun you can't look at the sun while you're observing it you kind of have to look downwards and catch it in your peripheral or you need to use equipment. [Speaker 2] (58:14 - 58:51) Right explain why we're going to do the why we'd actually look at the sun so on a flat earth they claim that the sun is way closer like three thousand miles away from the earth which means that as it comes from the further distance point to above your um your zenith above your head it should actually increase two times in size and then as it goes away it should decrease in size where on a round earth since it's 92 million miles away that distance is negligible it would never change and so the size of the sun would be consistent throughout the entire time in the sky. Now go ahead David you can put the filter on. [Speaker 1] (58:51 - 59:31) Perfect I love that you you know what I'm going with this. So this was the argument I brought up I probably could have done an even better job pushing it but here it is it kills it right and anybody can do this you don't need to be watching YouTube videos. You take a camera and they like the Nikon p1000 it's their favorite camera they call it the what Red's Rhetoric calls it the flat earther camera of choice and the reason that's the flat earther camera of choice is because it has the best zoom magnification capability which shows you that flat earthers do agree most of them that you can use equipment to make observations right you we can use lasers we can use gyroscopes we can use cameras those are all permitted okay. [Speaker 3] (59:31 - 59:38) This argument seems so ridiculous to me so are they writing off the microscope as well and like the in the microscopic world. [Speaker 1] (59:38 - 1:05:05) The fisheye lens. We can't use telescopes some of them will say you can't use telescopes but you can use the p9000 the p1000 and my yeah microscopes telescopes that's all Jesuit foolery apparently I don't know but with this we don't even need to go there because all you need to do is take their favorite camera and the reason they have their favorite camera is because of the zoom capability that it has because they're trying to recapture ships going over the horizon and sun setting over the horizon to show you no it's going away it's not going over anything but you just do this you get a solar filter for 15 on amazon you get a p p9000 I think it's like 1200 bucks for this camera okay you if you can afford it you don't even need it but if you can afford it you get an equatorial mount I was trying to explain this and it just went over everybody's heads but the equatorial telescope mounts are already a problem for the flat earth because of the fact that that it has to do with the actual rotation it has if this if the sun because an equatorial telescope mount you can track an object with it and it moves with the object so you can actually just align it track it the sun and it'll go with it if the earth was flat it would have to use two axes of rotation in order to follow the sun because of what josh was explaining about the only way that the sun could work on the flat earth model that they never present to us right and so that's one thing but if you can get those three things together the camera with the zoom the solar filter and an equatorial telescope mount and you can put that together you can even do it without the mount you could just manually observe the sun but you observe the sun for three days and you track it rising and setting three full days just that's all you need you could do longer if you wanted and you will see that the angular size of the sun relative to the observer doesn't change that's because you put it on zoom so it's zoomed into the sun so the sun fills the frame of the camera through the solar filter so you can actually see what the sun looks like okay and you can watch it and track it going up and down three days in a row if that sun does not change angular size relative to the observer and if that sun does indeed go the first part of this of the sphere starts to drop down then a little bit more than a little bit more than a little bit more until it disappears and you can watch i've done it myself i've watched it happen many times and it's undeniable that the sun is not vanishing away from you because it doesn't change angular sign whether you're at high noon or the morning or the sunset it doesn't change so what does that say right so that's one observation that just right away should make people go if i make that observation personally not just watching a video but i make that observation personally right away i now have to start asking more questions about the claims that they're making so that was one of the pieces of evidence i brought up there was the other thing about the uh the midnight sun in karuna sweden um and the and the relative miles if you do the calculation of the miles between karuna sweden and somewhere in the us uh and then karuna sweden and australia and you do those calculations it's uh i had it all written out but it's a really good argument because actually i do have it here um it's talking about how the uh here we go yeah okay so karuna sweden the sun stays up continually never setting for two months during june and july so it doesn't set there okay yet 8400 miles away so just over 8 000 miles away in australia it's coming up every single day joel did you see the sun coming up and down every single day in australia or i believe so dave okay just making sure and you're not being paid by nasa to say this okay i can't speak on that okay so the total straight line of flight distance between karuna sweden and perth australia is 8 300 miles okay now just think about that if we have the sun going up over two points on the earth that are 8 400 miles apart and given the flat earth model the sun visibility of 9 000 to 10 000 miles because they're talking about the visibility it's it's a vanishing point it's not a horizon right those who live in america should see the sun at the same time as karuna and australia sees it as we are only 4 400 miles from karuna and only 8 100 miles from australia and it shows the exact so on a flat earth we should but we get nothing but total blackness that's the other thing that never rubbed me the right way was when they're saying it's a sun that's disappearing away from you and then coming back around the record player how are we in total blackness and i remember trying to bring this up but i i think it deviated back to curvature or something and i'm like no but it's total blackness that means something's blocking the sun rays from hitting our eyes to decode the light so what's blocking it and their answer would be nothing because there's there's no horizon it just dims out is what it just dims out yeah and that's not we don't see that so i again i'm like why am i not seeing what you're saying would have to exist in order for what you're saying to be true and then you know on and on we go so um the other argument really quick oh go ahead and [Speaker 2] (1:05:05 - 1:05:58) then i have one more yeah it goes back to remember when we were discussing this and we were talking about experiments and there is no such thing as an experience we call them tests right and they were coming out there and patrick was doing this a lot he kept on referencing dubois or a youtube video or i got a video for that i said what experiments what tests have you done yourself you remember what he said none this is the thing is they go out there and they claim they tell us that our object you're claiming nasa's data you're indian space state your space data you're claiming this experiment that was done here go out and do it yourself i'll show you and then you ask them what experience that they've done none this is the the narcissistic tendency that i'm right and you're wrong simply because i'm right and i proved it to myself sorry david i wanted [Speaker 1] (1:05:58 - 1:08:53) to put that out there because well yeah and also just to say there are flat earthers that do experiments but i was shocked to hear that our debate opponents hadn't and i was actually just like okay that's why i started saying okay guys let's hook up and do this experiment together side by side and record it like because that's where it gets to as you go let's just do it so um but here's the other argument that they're because you asked what are the arguments they say they go on sensation and they say we don't feel movement so you're walking around i don't feel earth inertia i don't feel inertia i don't feel the spin of the earth a thousand miles why isn't everybody flying off the planet and i'm like okay again you had you already kind of hinted at this earlier josh with the inertial reference frames when you get in a car and it's not moving and you start the car and then you start to accelerate and let's say i accelerate really fast i just push that pedal of the metal and i go oh you're gonna feel that aren't you right because the human body has sensors in it to feel acceleration we feel things when they accelerate if i suddenly shove you you feel the sudden movement right but when you're in the car at a constant speed that doesn't change you don't feel it i was just in the car last night we went on a nice little drive with the family they're all sleeping peacefully in the back of the car got some music playing you can barely feel this thing moving i even have a truck that has those uh speakers on it that cancel out the outside noise so it's just like a nice little sound bubble and you're just like and you're just coasting along if i suddenly stop we feel that if i suddenly accelerate we feel that but if i maintain the motion exactly if i maintain 100 kilometers an hour you don't feel nothing okay and then remember it's relative to the size and scale of the planet in relation to the rest of the universe as well and so you're not going to feel that and then you start asking this was what um the professor dave did to flat earth dave which to me the reaction was priceless and i feel like that was checkmate right there in that debate he did on sean atwood show when he asked him this question because flat earth dave brought this up uh and so professor dave just says okay uh how many days does it take for this for the earth to do one full rotation or how many hours does it take for the earth to do one full rotation and how many days does it take for the earth to revolve around the sun yeah it's okay 12 hour or 24 hours right and 365 days so it takes a year to do a full revolution at that speed okay he said take a car get up to that speed and take a right hand turn that takes a year one degree a day yeah one degree [Speaker 2] (1:08:53 - 1:08:58) one degree a day take a right hand turn one degree at the day and tell me what type of force that you [Speaker 1] (1:08:58 - 1:10:14) feel yeah exactly so right away that to me is there's there's the answer for you that answer is expected in this model why is that a problem why is that not immediately oh i guess we'll throw that argument out right and so it's inertial reference frames relative to the observer we feel acceleration we don't feel speed the body doesn't have the ability to detect velocity exactly and one more thing real quick on that the speed at which your nuclei is spinning around in your cells and your and the atoms and the atomic structure of your body you don't feel that but it's traveling at the speed of light inside you right so go study the microcosm to understand the macrocosm you don't feel nothing going on in your body but there's trillions of mechanisms going on in your body every second of every day that you're alive and you don't feel it so you can't use that as the way to determine it you need instruments that are tuned to be able to feel that and understand that and that's where you get into some of these experiments that you can do to prove that it's moving but they always deny that as well but there you there you have it [Speaker 3] (1:10:17 - 1:10:29) wow thank you for sharing a lot of great points there uh for sure so let me ask you this is there anything about the mainstream scientific model of the earth that you disagree with [Speaker 2] (1:10:31 - 1:15:04) absolutely josh you want to start uh yeah i will so there's a lot of things within our our modern scientific theories that um that they will claim are exactly that theories that they don't know the answer to and so the one thing that they do know is they do understand the math and so just because you know you can explain mathematically how something works doesn't mean you know why it works and that's key and important to understand here we know why we know we can describe mathematically how the sun operates and how the earth operates but we don't necessarily know why they operate that way for instance the core of the earth we have a magnetic field that expands beyond the earth and to this day geoscientists have no idea what produces it they have theories of what produces it is you have a hot magma and an outer magma that are moving in contrast to each other an iron molten core and this is produces an electrical field well then you ask prove it show me that repeatable in a laboratory and guess what they can't they can't recreate a mag an electric field that produces that large of a magnetic field in a laboratory with those two substances so the question is is how is the earth's core operating to produce the magnetic field they really don't know secondarily why does the sun's magnetic field change and fluctuate due to solar minimums and maximums dependent upon the various solar cycles and if there's solar flares it strengthens all these types of things they can't explain this either i think it's more of quantum entanglement with the sun these types of things but these are things that science doesn't research or provide funding for to look into simply because there's no interest in it we can explain it mathematically that works there's no reason to worry about the theoretical model of what it is and the same thing goes for quantum physics and when you start getting into that aspect i think science itself is inherently been corrupted since the early 1900s and the reason that has been corrupted is kind of where i agree with the flat earthers is that they don't want us to know the truth about reality they don't want us to know the underlining mechanisms of how reality actually functions and i think that this is one of the deepest darkest hidden truths within our world right now i think that this is something that's been hidden deep within the occult sciences within the esoteric mysteries and i think that only a few handful of people on this planet actually know what this truth is and i think many of us right now are rediscovering what that truly is and coming into the understanding of what it is that relationship with it but then we have multiple interpretations of that information and knowledge and this is why we probably have flat earthers this is why we have people who think pleiadians are coming down here and taking them to the fifth dimension and all this other stuff i'm not saying that's not happening i'm saying that's an interpretation of the information of what they're perceiving so i think that there's a lot of flaws with science i explain our current quantum mechanics quantum paradigm very similar to this imagine that there was a skyscraper and the skyscraper was invisible you can't see it and you have wind that blows by the skyscraper and it goes around it you have rain that falls off the top of the skyscraper and the only thing that we can see is a screw and we go out there and we see the screw we start explaining all this phenomena pertaining to the screw like you know thousands of feet before the screw we have wind wrapping around the screw there must be a force outside of the screw that wraps it around when water drops high up 10,000 feet above the screw it drips down like there's a force expanding out about it so we will describe the phenomena based upon what we can see and observe which is just a screw when in actuality there's a huge skyscraper there and we have yet to understand or conceptualize that huge skyscraper that's our current understanding of of of quantum physics and i think that's the same thing that goes for cosmological cosmology as well is that we we are looking at a screw and trying to explain the phenomena that we see well the screw is only something that's within the 0.005 of the visual spectrum of what we can actually perceive when there's a greater bigger universe out there that is not being described yeah reminds me of a great [Speaker 3] (1:15:04 - 1:15:09) unran quote just because it's something along the lines of just because something is not known [Speaker 1] (1:15:09 - 1:18:52) and doesn't make one liable to create fantasy yeah yeah and that's what happens and maybe the fantasy is normal process of getting to the truth of the thing like you have to start with a theory you have to start with hey i've got a question why does it look like this and not like this and like there's nothing wrong with that okay but when the answers are given to you and the experiments are available you can do for yourself to prove it one way or another and then you deny doing that and you keep in the fantasy realm this is why we have to bring in that psychological component of is there something else motivating this inquiry other than the truth now because if the truth has been presented to you or at least the best possible equation of the truth um then and you're denying that then uh you're at a point where you're moving the other way you know right um and i just want to say about this uh question about disagreeing with science we do this on unslaved all the time and one of the biggest things that michael brings up about science is that it leaves consciousness at the door it dismisses the idea of spirit and uh the order of the moral universe or god or whatever you want to call it it's been called many things um so it's and and the argument from scientists would be like that's not our realm we decided to become a compartmentalized group of experts in certain areas to get greater insight into those areas so our domain is not religion and uh philosophy and big picture and asking if there's like speculation only goes to a certain degree in science and so in that sense i can hear both sides right i could hear the scientists that are just saying it's not our job we're leaving all that anyways but the problem is then their theories start to become mystical in nature right that's the thing is that in science in and that's i hate this word problem because there's just science as a methodology and then there's like the institutions of science that have all their theories that they're positing as the basis that lead to other theories okay like the theory of darwinian evolution right there's many scientists that have taken that apart and shown a different way of looking at it okay um so for them to say science is settled and it's darwin evolution that's bullshit just like in medicine the science is settled that we have to wear two masks alone in our car okay well there's scientists that disagree with you so for us to go screw all of science it's a big cult that's not in the i'm making the cult of the medics documentary i'm saying no science itself is not a cult the scientific institutions with particular organizations and conflicting interests are manipulating statistical data and studies they're manipulating science which means it's corrupted criminal science that's different than saying screw science right that's where i'm at um now matt presty who we've had on and you guys have had on i love the man i'm glad he's doing podcasts again by the way um and he sent me we had a real nice uh chat and he gave me his argument about against flat earth and he comes from the walter russell school okay and i'm just gonna can i do a quick share screen to show you a couple things here sure man i'll go we had matt presty on a couple nights ago in our private membership community and he gave us the he gave us the same thing for our members so please okay perfect then i'll just i'll just show you so i'm just going to show you where you can find this stuff let me know when i'm up you're up oh i'm up perfect okay i created this channel on telegram as a separate channel with no comments because i just want it to be i'm just putting this out and you can take it or leave it you can leave anytime okay this is my collection of arguments that refute flat earth okay it's my collection that's what i do i collect [Speaker 3] (1:18:52 - 1:18:56) it's called flat earth refuted for anyone listening that wants to find it that's correct flat earth [Speaker 1] (1:18:56 - 1:26:40) refuted um i've got a whopping 300 people that are interested in this um most people would prefer flat earth debate but anyways what i've got is a collection of the top arguments from flat earth debunkers from my own observations uh different arguments and comments that i've seen over the years uh people that you can follow like this is an excellent video on the blue marble because you don't get the full story when you hear flat earthers talk about the blue marble photo and the nasa thing is a yes i think there's stuff going on with nasa but that doesn't mean it's to this extent and that's another conversation um but this just kind of goes through to show you how you can validate whether or not it's a real photograph or not um and on and on but anyways i wanted to get to this okay i don't know if i don't know if matt covered this this is from walter russell's great book the universal one and for those that don't know who walter russell is walter russell was a mystical scientist he was assigned he was the left and the right brain put together uh he wasn't just a compartmentalized expert he had mystical visions and um mystical visions i don't even like saying that he had he had a deep intuitive knowing about certain things that he then used science to validate okay kind of like a nikola tesla and he had an entire philosophy an entire thing about the the way that what gravity is on a philosophical sense is actually just stillness that we've called gravity because there are issues with the theory of gravity on many point but it remember that gravity itself is not a force gravity creates a force gravity is like a placeholder for what that is uh so just because we don't know what it is doesn't mean we can't measure the action of the force that's being employed and calculate and do all kinds of stuff with it okay walter russell knew what he would say well gravity their issue with gravity is they're looking at it just materialistically there's a whole process that creates a sphere that starts with the cell that creates you that the way the planets are formed the way the galaxies are formed and he just goes through it so he's talking about the evolution of mass from a plane to a sphere because there's an expanding and contracting mechanism within all of nature and so he's getting into a deeper thinking process when it comes to this discussion about whether or not it's flat or not and walter russell was definitely not a flat earther or was somebody that said space is fake and we're the only ones he was more of an infinite mind uh thinker um i've also got arguments here from you know little clips of debates that i found really good gems measurements uh how to go get books like the original elementary surveying books to get the actual calculations of how to calculate the eight inch times mile squared which they all get wrong and they won't change the way they're telling people that it's calculated so it's really it's just it's unbelievable the amount of lies you start to see which is really sad um i've got uh this is and then in here i've written out or i didn't write it out i posted matt's uh argument on monopoles because he used magnets magnetism right as a way of saying every living thing has two poles every magnet has two poles what you're asking us to believe with flat earth is in a monopole which can't exist because of and he goes through the arguments of it so he's coming back to we have to look at this argument from the her from the hermetic perspective and that seems to be the biggest misunderstanding is when you understand the microcosm macrocosm as above so below as within so without and you start looking at your own body as having two poles and um and then you understand how magnetism works and you there's all these experiments that you can do you start to ask well if it's this if it's that way within my own being can i not expect to see evidence that it's also that way within the external world as well right there's a reflection happening and so that's why i love his argument because it's not just the typical a lot of the flatter at the bunkers are all like atheist scientists guys right yeah and they just take it from that angle and they're valuable to a point but when you bring in like matt prestey and some of the arguments that we give we're not atheist scientists okay so we we are on that side but we're also not flat earthers that think space is fake so there's a there's a there's a middle ground here that can be resolved when you bring in thinkers like tesla who also wasn't a flat earther they a lot of flat earthers keep going back to tesla um because he's one of the most covered up scientists of all time yet i just pulled out tons and i posted them all on this page all the documents all the written notes of tesla where he's explaining how gravity really works how the universe is structured how the he talks about the planets he talks about the spherical nature of the earth how it works and so i wanted to just show people you're being told things that are just simply not true and so look at all the arguments and then make up your mind so that's what flat earth refuted is and then really quickly before i leave the screen share i want to show you this there's a good uh collection of debate notes over on mctoon's uh website and it's mctoon.net and what he's done is he's worked with other flat earth debunkers in the community from all over the world and they've been collecting data and they've been doing arguments and debates with flat earthers for years and collecting data and then posting all the data and all the counter arguments on the site and it's quite an interesting project and if you go and look at something like the coriolis effect you're going to start to hear people claim because this was something that i think even jill rogan said this years ago he's like what about snipers having to calculate for coriolis when they're doing long-range shooting and once i do this josh i want you to weigh in because you were in the navy for 10 years but they have the actual formulas here so they have the math of coriolis acceleration they got the whole thing and then they have um i don't think it's this page it's this one coriolis for artillery you're going to be told by people that talk about flat earth that they know snipers that don't calculate for coriolis when they do long-range shooting and that's their argument is they're just saying nuh-uh however this is a collection of all the military documents for sniper training and long-term ballistics that absolutely refute it and have entire chapters on calculating for coriolis the difference is and they'll say it right here artillery projectiles travel a long distance and a speed and and spend a considerable amount of time in the air the longer projectiles in the air and the farther it travels the more coriolis it affects for this reason the military have compiled tables to include adjustments for coriolis when calculating firing solutions for artillery and there's even books written by world famous sniper trainers okay and i've got two copies of these books and they both have entire chapters on on the the details of how to calculate for coriolis and that it's only condition specific they don't always have to the vast majority of times when they're doing long-range shooting it's irrelevant but in certain conditions over certain distances it's absolutely there and it is absolutely part of the training so i just wanted to show people the actual place to go for the sources go check them out so that when flat earthers tell you no snipers don't calculate for coriolis when they're doing long-range shooting [Speaker 2] (1:26:40 - 1:28:30) that's a lie so josh take it away so yeah so i actually know a uh a sniper and he might be but he's uh he's actually a uh a delta force ranger former and um he will tell you the earth is flat and he is a flat earther and i've had this discussion with him multiple times and yeah he they calculate for curvature in long distance shoots now that document that you were just showing there by the u.s navy talking about the 60 inch 50 caliber gun have you ever seen a battleship i've seen pictures of it okay so the battleship that's a battleship that's 16 inch gun the rounds are like like this big okay so when it's talking about long distance shooting so this is actually i've worked on weapons and defense systems in the navy i worked on three inch guns 25 millimeter gatling guns i worked on you know sm1 2 and 3 missile launchers those types of things and so when you're shooting something two or three miles 10 miles 8 miles like the 16 inch gun they would shoot that probably 10 to 15 miles all right you have to account for the curvature of the earth you have to account for the coriolis and when you're when you're plotting these shots okay and we go up to a place called combat system we pull up all these maps and topography and everything like that and we actually have to calculate specifically where that round's going to land because this isn't like a missile that's a heat seeking and stuff like that this is just a projectile that we're shooting and we want to land on a target we wanted to land on a target 10 or 20 miles away like another ship and to do that you have to be very very specific within your calculations and you absolutely 100 calculate for curvature i can tell you this because we've done it i didn't get to that in our conversation with nathan because they didn't care to hear it [Speaker 1] (1:28:30 - 1:32:16) but anyways yeah and that's important because um when they start making claims you have to go okay young people are hearing this that don't have any other side at the same time and so they're just believing it they're like oh well there it is that's the one that senses it for me but you realize there's counter arguments to everything yeah so if you're going to determine the truth don't just believe us either like i'm sitting here positing the earth is a sphere because i think it's the most efficient shape in nature and i feel like the evidence strongly suggests that's the case and you can measure this for yourself but if you disagree with me fine that's totally cool we're allowed to disagree um but you have to go out and prove it you have to hear all these arguments that's why i created flat earth refuted is to go there has to be something out there that shows there's another side to every single argument that they posit so i have done a good job i think uh as well as other guys of collecting every single argument that they have make and point giving you the refutation to that argument so then you can go which one do you think has the most evidence it's up to you and really quick i just want to give some questions um for flat earth so those of you who are on the fence those of you who are not sure those of you who believe it here's a here's a list of questions number one why does the circumpolar celestial stars rotate in different directions why is the circumpolar stars directly above when at the north and south pole yet at the horizon when at the celestial equator right this is that idea of like the ancient the first thing ancient man did was observe the stars okay and they built monuments to align with these the movements of these stars and so we have to understand that we have to start looking up again and if you just go oh it's all fake how do you know that it's fake you're just making an assumption that it's fake what if it's more real than you can possibly imagine and what if there's a mechanism inside of you that might prefer that it's fake because therefore it might ease some of that anxiety that we all have about just how unpredictable nature is i don't know i'm just speculating next how does light from the sun travel a great a far greater distance latitudinal than longitudinal why does the shadow from a lunar eclipse always appear around no matter what location or orientation it is viewed in and how do lunar eclipses even happen at all this is where they had to start making the idea that the moon is some kind of holographic projection or it's a living being or something right where there's these shadows these they've got these black planet theories that it's like it's not the shadow of the earth it's like some dark object that's going in front and last one is why does the moon always appear the same size and why do we always see the same face and that's the same thing we'd have to say about the sun if you do those observations those are just a few questions uh if we want to later i also had a list of questions that ralph ellis sent me to ask flat earthers that we can wrap with because i asked him as well i said ralph what do you think about all this and he didn't just go and start googling shit he started to think because he's got a genius mind he's like i'll think about it for a couple days and i'll send you a few questions so he just thought about it and these were his organic questions so i'll save it for the end but there's more questions we have for flatter this episode would have been five hours if ralph joined us as well man i think you've done an incredible job with that channel and i hope this episode proves to provide some balance of the force as well um i want to bring it back for a second early on you posited that this movement started in 2014 had a lot to do with that eric debate video 200 proofs um let's we dive a bit deeper into that [Speaker 3] (1:32:16 - 1:32:34) what proof and evidence potentially have you compiled that this was an intentional plant to distract and deceive um and can we go down that rabbit hole briefly we don't have heaps of time but i'd like to explore that why is this a psychological operation um and what's the [Speaker 2] (1:32:34 - 1:37:26) evidence that supports that yeah i want to take this real quick because um 2017 you had another psychological warfare operation that people might be familiar with known as q or q anon um whether q was real and legitimate or whether q was bad and a bad guy it was operated as a psychological warfare operation directed and targeted towards two various ideologies first christian and the the patriotic community okay um currently today and this is where the problem arises is that if you look at people who still latch on to that whole genre of information they believe that somebody else is going to come save them that that trump and the patriots are in control and the deep state is being systematically taken down and there's so much level of information of false information that flows in to that channel that these people lose a perspective of reality because they have a faith attached directly towards the warfare operation psychological warfare operation i mean the same thing goes to flat earth is when flat earth came out i think it was actually a uh he was a an african-american um air force active duty air force guy who came out and he he posted videos all over youtube about him on a plane showing how the earth was flat and him measuring remember he brought the the the tools up there and he was measuring it on the plane and that was him he was active duty air force and he has since disappeared so i look at this is that i think it started as a psychological warfare operation i think it came out uh targeting directly the christian ideology and what it did is it it instituted itself in the faith of the believer and that's the dangerous part of this the same thing with the q thing is it instituted itself within the faith of the believer now how does this come about these are the tactics that are using within psychological warfare to attack that certain mindset of a person to be ingrained within their belief structure as a truth i've always talked about truth is there's various types of truths we have a self-evident truth that is based upon our observation of nature our education our indoctrination our authorities that we learn throughout our life and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a correct interpretation of the absolute truth it's just our truth and what happens is is when people go through these various psychological warfare operations is they become emotionally spiritually and physically attached to that dogma of truth and that it is so pertinent to their being in their existence because it reiterates their whole belief in god or their whole basically or their whole perspective of how life comes about in the universe is and so i think kind of what we're seeing here is we're seeing various different psychological warfare operations being perpetuated on people for various different reasons number one is david and i have talked about this one of the main reasons that the flat earth was brought about and targeted towards these people is because now you can usher in a whole bunch of other extreme conspiracy theorists into flat earth and these people will run on their own rabbit holes and not only will they keep themselves active by going down these rabbit holes they're not going to be paying attention to what's really happening in the world they're not going to be paying attention to the real change and attack that's happening in the world whether it's the world economic forum the new world order the globalist or whatever but also because you can take them to various different points of extremism simply because you got them to believe this one now all you do is you run the same operation you attach from flat earth you attach that uh you know i don't know nibiru or planet nine is coming in and or whatever it might be and now they run with that and that extrapolates into their theory and now you have basically this is the other part of it is they believe these extremist views they believe these these things that have no substantiation of evidence whatsoever but now what happens is you have an actual conspiracy let's just talk about the the thing in the arm right now you have an actual conspiracy and who are the freedom fighters fighting for that truth it's them so now they come out i'm a flat earther and oh they're trying to poison us and kill us with a bioweapon what happens they're easily discredited because of their dogmatic beliefs within this other thing that is completely disprovable so that's my perspective well said man [Speaker 1] (1:37:26 - 1:43:53) yeah and um and that doesn't mean all psychological operations are necessarily run by let's call them the bad guys like there are some reasons why certain operations are run in a certain way to cause a reaction right in society that's another debate that we've had you know josh and i we've talked about some of that stuff before but that's another show um the the reason i think i don't have any like physical evidence of taped phone conversations or something between people saying we're gonna fund flat earth and put out there and all that i just see the signs of the people that believe it and when i when i started getting into the whole cult thing i started to do a lot of research into the blueprint of how psychological warfare works within cults and how they get normal people to become very extreme in their thinking in a very short period of time and it's it's quite the elaborate uh methodology but don't forget your government knows this inside and out no matter where you live in the world they've spent decades and billions of dollars into operations and projects as to how to appeal to you on an individual level and guide you against your other natural will or to uh be able to create narratives that appeal to what edward bernay is called the public mind and so this is where i go how do you guys know because they're going to say we're the ones under mind control but i would say how do you know you're not under mind control how do you know that like how do you know that what you've been told isn't more oriented towards an emotionally charged argument versus a logically charged argument right and i i saw this when i watched the same dynamic is at play when you watched um that documentary by matt walsh what is a woman when he's trying to go to professors and universities about the gender thing and the you know how do we even define what a woman is in this world where you know everything is social constructs and moral relativism and he's trying to question them and they have the same kind of arguments and they they sound scientific they sound like they know what they're talking about sounds legitimate but you really start to see the brilliance of how matt walsh approached those interviews was he didn't combatively come at anybody or debate anybody about those points he just asked questions that allowed them to fill it in and demonstrate that a lot of what we're dealing with here is not reality or science or a quest for the truth or helping this there's an emotional religious like belief system around the idea and there's many ways to test for that so my question is is is this a natural thing that happens as many humans are trying to avoid reality evade themselves uh create false mysterious constructs to escape into is this just escapism on steroids or is this a planned psychological attack well i think it's the latter i think it's both okay i think the latter feeds the former and if you have created this online world that's very new to the human species like i lived in a time you guys too we grew up in a time where there was no internet all right i'm gonna sound like an old fart now i was in the days where there was no internet and uh now we have the internet and as it's grown into social media and we've seen what social media has become which is basically just a bunch of different cages that are all censored and monitored and patrolled and surveilled and they're getting data off of the human race and we're actually giving our free labor to these multinational corporations and these investment firms and these elitists to fill in the gaps of knowledge that they have about us so we're giving them all the insight into how we think what we what turns us on what turns us off what pisses us off what polarizes us simply by having our conversations on the internet they've got ai algorithms pulling that information into these big centers they have analysts studying it and they're crafting political narratives media narratives and psychological operations off of that data that we are willingly giving them okay that's the reality in that world what's what's occam's razor now in this situation is it more likely that a bunch of random guys made some observations that challenged all of the brilliant thinkers for thousands of years and their observations um or is it more likely that we're dealing with psychological warfare and and i think that in the end the way that this came in now keep in mind when i said 2014 that's when i noticed it went viral on the internet and people that i knew started asking me these questions and even fellow researchers of mine fell into that rabbit hole and never came back you know people like santos bernacchi and all these other guys who i used to where i was like whoa what happened and not only did their belief system change their attitude changed their uh whole approach changed and i went okay i just don't like the way you're going about this so i'm out and that freaked me out a little bit and i realized there's something here that appeals to like josh was saying it appeals to the religious mind and when i first asked michael about this i wish i found the write-up that he did he did a write-up on flat earth from a psychological perspective years ago i still gotta find it but he his argument was from a psychological perspective about um the quest for meaning and how this is just how it feeds in and it feeds an emotional uh there's a there's sort of like an emotional vacuum that and a feeling of insignificance that needs to be filled and that's how they craft psychological operations that's how they get everybody at the super bowl or the halftime show or the olympic games show to tune in and respond to those symbols and those emotional cues because they're training you to think a certain way and react a certain way and so you pose this question to uh patrick in the debate josh and i don't know what his answer was but he was saying i got thousands of videos showing um stuff about the sun growing in size and all that and i said and you said to me go but patrick you know and you believe we live in an age of psychological warfare so how do you know that those videos aren't crafted by people who are perpetuating that psychological operation and i think he was just like oh like i don't know if he's like well you're right you're right you're [Speaker 2] (1:43:53 - 1:43:56) right and i said well why don't you go do the experience yourself he goes well i guess i'll have [Speaker 1] (1:43:56 - 1:48:31) to right and then so then that's where you go okay we can't go anywhere but that's where i say everybody's they're telling me like even that flat earth expert we were debating on twitter he brought up eric dubay like every second tweet you have to go read eric dubay you have to go read eric dubay and i'm like okay but i've listened to him and i've listened to people take away and refute his theories why do we keep bringing up this guy because he was the first guy and i i'll tell you this i have my suspicion without evidence but i have my suspicion that someone like an eric is a personality that's chosen and created and paid to bring this narrative into our space where everybody's got an open mind and everybody already knows there's real legitimate lies and conspiracies afoot and so you bring in the mother load of conspiracy that can take air take everybody into that and actually create division but it's not even just about that i think it's also about collecting data i think this is part of the surveillance operation and i i pin that on also what we just went through with the pandemic where i tell people don't forget this wasn't just about getting quack scenes into you and making you wear masks and doing that this was the largest intelligence gathering operation in human history where they were tracking you where you went on your phone they were getting your neighbors to report on you and they collected all that data and i think that these type of psychological operations um that's what it's for ultimately at the top is to collect data on how people respond to measure the psyche to see how well people craft their own arguments that are based on the fallacy that they were fed and then they can draw it out and it creates a whole industry and again it's ultimately about a distraction from the real conspiracy which is the conspiracy to control land wealth and resources um and the final comment i'll say it to the people that say well they are that's why they're covering up the flat earth because they're trying to hide the hidden resources from us on the outer rim of the after the ice wall and i'm like well but what's why does it have to be that why wouldn't we also take in the secret space program as a reason why there's been some lying and chicanery regarding nasa and some of these cover-ups and that the real resources and the real land that's being hidden from the human race is uh what's off planet right they don't want you to know that so that could be same data similar conclusion but i'm not in a realm where it's flatter so when i basically give them their same argument back and they come back with a bunch of all caps i'm like okay so we're not open-minded we're not free thinking here this is a religious belief system that was installed i think by way of a psychological warfare operation i agree i agree okay go ahead and drop that mic dave drop the what the mic oh drop the mic okay i mean and again i like i've heard guys say i've heard i've spoken to people that work in intelligence okay and i got in touch with some of these guys during the convoy in canada because they were 100 against what the government was doing and they were they were trying to help expose it and you start asking them questions about this kind of stuff and they would tell you behind the scenes oh yeah these these these this whole movement was financed by you know darpa by the cia as a way of getting online like well what evidence do we have and they're like well we can't really share that you know and so i don't that's why i have second-hand information i don't know but i also look at the signs around me and um whether it was planned by the government or whatever to um to divide a community and track and trace us in this way or whether it's a further indication of psychological regression that humanity is going through this was another one of michael's arguments is that this is about regressing regressing and flattening your consciousness um to bring you back to a medieval form of thinking because think about it if they're trying to recreate feudalism 2.0 and we're dealing with all these dark chivalric orders that i'm exposing in cult of the medics that are military mind people um then it makes sense that they would want to bring a stone age a medieval age of ideology back into the mix as well to help program the consciousness in that way so there's just indications and hints but i just look at the track record of other proven psyops and i say this has the same fingerprints all over it you know [Speaker 2] (1:48:31 - 1:51:10) and in closing to your point that you're talking about there with this is DARPA or CIA or intelligence agency controlled see here's the thing nowadays you don't need funding this is the beauty of what i think happened and it goes to what you were just saying is i think that that there was a test on social media to basically try to see if you can manipulate a certain group of people into believing a completely radical ideology and get them aligned with it and see how well it grows over periods of time and i've talked about this to extent that the way the social media platforms are built facebook instagram twitter youtube all of us they all utilize the same marketing background the way these marketing products work is they go out there and they create what's called an egg about you and this collects all the data of what you're doing how many times you're clicking what you're clicking on what you're scrolling past what you're what you're reading what you're not reading not only that is it collects your phone data where your phone is in your body is in your back pocket your front pocket how many times are you picking it up when you're looking at it what type of days you're looking at it where you're traveling to all the places you're going where your fingers touching are you touching the top of the screen the bottom of the screen the middle of the screen are you playing games it's taking in all of this data and it builds a psychological profile based upon you and what they do is they put certain information in your peripheral and in front of your eyes so when you're going through and scrolling what they'll do is they'll run certain algorithmic test functions on you and they'll say okay well this person seems to be more towards monster trucks so they'll put a peripheral of a monster truck rally coming up and see if you click on that and then they'll start putting little cues in your feed until eventually when this is built up inside you subliminally they have by monster truck rally tickets right now and you click and you go to the call the action and i think that this is what they did early on in 2013-2014 as a psychological warfare operation to target christian ideology towards more fundamentalism to basically see if they would believe something as absurd as flat earth and all they had to do was set the seeds and then these people would take the bait and just move it forth and now we're in 2023 and it's a multi-million dollar industry the flat earth community right now and so you know you look at that and then all that all of a sudden you have the shooting then you have all these other warfare operations that come out after this and i think that that the internet has 100 percent been um weaponized against people specifically within social media [Speaker 1] (1:51:13 - 1:51:40) that's really well put yeah i really wanted to create this episode just to kind of have a flag in the ground or a signpost for weary travelers to just let them know that there is you know another way another direction that you know things might not be all as they seem and that you know not all conspiracies are true and not all science is bunk um which i think is a couple categories which i'm seeing be proliferated and this was everything which i wanted it to be so i want to [Speaker 3] (1:51:40 - 1:51:52) thank you both uh for that for sure um all right you guys have a podcast together do you know tell us what you what's going on for you guys for our audience before we close this one off sure uh well [Speaker 1] (1:51:52 - 1:52:42) we do a show called earth chronicles on badlands media which is skyrocketing right now on rumble and we do that every wednesday at 12 pacific 3 p.m eastern and we talk about all kinds of stuff anything we actually originally had done a a small little series called mars chronicles where we're getting into all the mars stuff and all the fringe theories and stuff and it was pretty popular but we thought well let's call this one earth chronicle so we can actually talk about more things and more specifically what's happening on the earth regardless of the shape of it so that we can stop this unfolding global conspiracy in its tracks and bring back freedom and bring back open-mindedness and reason and truth and uh all these beautiful things so that's the goal of it and yeah badlands media every wednesday josh anything individually you want to share about [Speaker 2] (1:52:42 - 1:54:18) what you work on and where people yeah no um yeah i have the red pill project that i started 2018 uh very simple it got censored off the internet for a very long time and uh i had to restart everything over i was on youtube had hundreds of thousands of subscribers millions upon millions of views and overnight my whole world was turned upside down when i got deleted from instagram facebook patreon anchor fm youtube all one night at the same exact time and at the time it was you know that's how i was supporting myself and so my family and i couldn't eat and there was no money coming in and it was it was a shocker so i started the red pill project kind of decentralized streaming is we we stream on multiple different platforms we have our own private social network and we have a motto never believe anything anybody tells you no matter who they are what authority they possess or profess unless you can prove it with your own research your own investigation through your own inquiry and through your own volition and i think that that's one of the most important things in today's world and what i do really on the red pill project is i help people actually integrate that into their life is to be hyper critical in the sense of information as it comes into your senses to keep filters up when you hear things to never just blindly accept something simply because somebody said it or because you observed it as such but instead to go out there and always question the narrative so that's what we do at the red pill project you can find that at redpills.tv redpills.tv guys so much respect for both of you thank you for coming [Speaker 3] (1:54:18 - 1:54:22) on thanks for being here for the truth and to everyone else thank you so much for listening [Speaker 1] (1:54:22 - 1:54:34) we'll see you next time take care thanks guys thanks boys thanks everybody thanks again so much guys for listening i hope that's triggered uh various nuances of thought [Speaker 3] (1:54:34 - 1:55:01) within you and hopefully made you reconsider the importance of this topic uh why it matters and why the conclusions that we draw for ourselves matters as well um food for thought anyway for sure just in closing i just want to remind all our incredible listeners that applications for round five of rise above the herd are now open again um this probably will sell out quickly like the previous four rounds this is specifically for truth seekers who are ready to reclaim the [Speaker 1] (1:55:01 - 1:55:07) reins of their lives so if you're interested in learning more please head to riseabovetheherd.co [Speaker 3] (1:55:07 - 1:55:14) and so much love for you all thanks for the support we appreciate it greatly be well see you next time