Chance Garton Tartaria Exposed : Sacred Cows & the Psychology of Conspiracy

Joel 00:00:02.080 - 00:01:09.440 All right, everybody, Chance Garden is the host. Actually, before I do that, can you pronounce Dylan's last name for me? Thank you. Chance Garden is the host and producer of the Universe podcast and Inner World with co researcher Dylan Sakosio as a self described all Odysseus. Hope I said that correctly. Chance's original research work is remarkable thanks to his sharp ability to discern patterns in language, symbolism, history, myth, and most importantly, the psychosomatic language of the human body and mind. As a biofield tuning practitioner, Chance has helped countless clients reach a more balanced state, resolve physical symptoms, and break negative life patterns by using tuning forks to guide bodies back to energetic coherence. This is Chance's third time on Here for the Truth. He first joined us on episode 15 back in 2021, and then he joined us on episode 97 in 2022. So we actually haven't had a discussion for four years, which is crazy to think about, but it's great to have him back. How you doing, Chance? Chance 00:01:10.160 - 00:01:17.520 Hey, guys. It's good to be back. Yeah. Doesn't feel like it's been that long since I was on, but. No, that is too long. Yerasimos 00:01:17.760 - 00:01:33.400 It is too long. We've seen each other, I think, a couple times. When I saw you in person for the first time at Music and Sky and realized that you're a giant. For anyone that knows Chance, you see me in person. I thought he might be like, you know, maybe a couple inches taller than me. Nah, just. Just towered over me. Chance 00:01:35.160 - 00:01:40.920 Yeah. There's a persistent rumor in my audience on the Telegram channel that I'm secretly a giant. Yerasimos 00:01:41.080 - 00:01:41.760 I think so. Chance 00:01:41.760 - 00:01:44.200 But I'm not. I'm just normal tall. I'm regular tall. Yerasimos 00:01:44.200 - 00:01:45.720 What are you, like, six, four, six three? Chance 00:01:45.800 - 00:01:47.000 No, I'm like six two. Yerasimos 00:01:47.740 - 00:01:48.900 Okay, maybe. Okay. Chance 00:01:48.900 - 00:01:50.300 I just love it. I just haven't. Yerasimos 00:01:52.300 - 00:01:53.580 Still got six inches on me. Joel 00:01:53.580 - 00:02:26.430 It's all aura. All right. And an intellectual giant. Let me. Let me throw that one in there as well. Before we get into the specific theme of this podcast, which is going to be the Tataria Conspiracy and some of your recent research on it, which is, you know, opposing it and debunking it, I just want to have a little bit of a general catch up, man. Like, obviously become a father in recent times. How is life generally for you? How are you feeling? How's fatherhood impacted you, things of that nature? Chance 00:02:27.390 - 00:04:24.950 Oh, man, life has definitely never been better. And not only have I evolved into a father since we last talked to each other, you know, I probably got. I Got married since we last talked to each other on this show too. So that's pretty big deal. Actually. I went through kind of a dark night of the soul during Cooties, like anybody and Joel actually helped me through that with a really great tarot reading. And that involved me kind of coming to terms with accepting that the relationship I was in back then needed to end. That was my version of the Dark Knight of the soul. I, I mean, I wasn't scared of a fake virus at the time, of course, but on the other side of those transitions now I've got a beautiful wife and daughter and the AI age is pretty awesome too. Gives me a lot more efficiency to create. And I've been, I think, doing my best work. Also evolved towards doing more solo research presentations. That's something that's always kind of been on my mind, like I wanted to do more of that because you guys probably get it right as podcast hosts. There's the further you go in your podcasting journey, if you have integrity, then it feels like the narrower the range of people that you, you would be willing to have on becomes. Because that's the whole, trust me, bro, podcast science and all of that. It's like, it's just crazy how many people talk mad and have no proof to back it up and just all completely are out of their ass with whatever it is that they're putting out there. And then it gets echoed around in the echo chamber of self referen genre content. That's kind of what the Tartaria thing is. So, yeah, I'm more interested in just sharing with people what I can figure out, what I can present. And I do have guests on still, but that's kind of the direction I've been moving toward. Joel 00:04:25.270 - 00:04:25.790 Awesome. Yerasimos 00:04:25.790 - 00:04:27.510 Cool, bro. Yeah, man. Joel 00:04:28.390 - 00:04:46.370 How. Sorry, Erasmus. How do you feel you've evolved on a spiritual level and as a man in, in the last few years, like what are, what are things that you can recognize in terms of internal shift shifts, you know, for you that are like a noticeable. Where it's like, yeah, you know, I, I really see myself growing as a human being. Chance 00:04:50.850 - 00:05:32.590 You guys will get it. This is the right place to share this. But probably in my ability to access and express anger. That's something that for the entirety of my life, up until the last three or four years was really pushed down in me. You know, the whole I'm a nice guy thing and I don't, I don't get mad thing. And so if people look at my content from the early days to now, they might Think that I've seemed like I've changed a lot because. Or I've become more serious in some way or just, like, less flattering, less mirroring to the person that I'm with and more a distinct individual. Yerasimos 00:05:32.590 - 00:05:45.020 I feel like more masculine on some level. You know, on some level, there is that element of it where it's, like, matter of fact, to the point, blunt, not just trying to, like, fawn or people please or, like, oh, everyone like me. Chance 00:05:46.460 - 00:06:30.490 Yeah. And I'm a. I'm a Leo rising in astrology, so I definitely have a strong weakness to wanting everybody to like me. And I think this Tartaria subject matter that I've been delving into has been a really great practice for me to express things that annoy me and be like this. This is righteous anger right here. This is stupid. You're. You're lying to me. I can't abide that. And then also get more practice with all of the, you know, hateful comments and crazy ad hominem that comes at you whenever you go after a sacred cow. That's also a kind of a cash cow as well, which is probably the most bizarre thing about the whole genre. Joel 00:06:31.130 - 00:06:50.330 Awesome, man. Appreciate it, bro. And it's good to hear, man. Congratulations on tapping into Biberanga. That's a powerful moment, for sure. All right, dude, let's dive into this. Like, how do we lay the foundation? Should we start with, like, what is Tartaria? Some of its origins in the conspiracy realm? Is that a good place to start? Yerasimos 00:06:50.890 - 00:06:51.330 Yeah. Chance 00:06:51.330 - 00:06:51.770 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:06:51.770 - 00:07:03.980 And also, why is it, like, on, like, the one thing I know about is, like, the fact that it's, like, on maps. Is that real? Is that not real? What is that all about? You know, the labeling and et cetera, et cetera, but you take us away, bro. Chance 00:07:04.140 - 00:09:42.730 Yeah, so I think probably the best place to start is what? The Tartaria, it's, like, hard to label. It's a whole bunch of different sort of conspiracy theories or alternative history narratives that have merged together. So there's many facets of it. And what drew me into deciding to finally investigate it in the first place was the Millennial reign theory. Have you guys heard of this? Okay, so there's this thing that's going around that's really popular, popular for the last couple years that says the Rapture already happened, Jesus already came back, and he already reigned for a thousand years or. And then. Then he left or something. And now we're in what's called the little season in the Book of Revelation, that after Jesus comes back, Satan gets loosed back on the world and gets to rule for a while. And so what they why this is part of the Tartaria theory. These two things have merged and Tartaria is like pick just picks up different other alternative theories, like a snowball rolling down a mountain. And the conspiracy Christian subculture has really latched onto it. And they say that all of the most impressive buildings that were built by, built in the 1800s, 1700s, or even some earlier than that were actually built during Jesus's time being here. Because that's the only way to explain how people could have built such beautiful things like the cathedrals and whatnot. Okay, so I, I had annoyance about this theory as somebody that has spent an incredible amount of time researching and presenting the many different reasons why the Bible is not like a literal history book. And what brought me into finally tackling Tartaria was I did a whole episode about the Book of Revelation to address the little season theory for my audience. Because a lot of my friends and people who are other podcasters that I'm friends with, and I like them and I like a lot of their work, they're caught up in this stuff. And ultimately I'm just trying to like, help and do a service. Can we break out of this delusion? Because it's, it's detracting from all the other good work you do because a serious person will see that you're into this thing and they'll think, well, there's no credibility here in these other things, where those other things actually have credibility. Like, especially in the health, health freedom type of realm. Yerasimos 00:09:43.450 - 00:10:01.890 So people are more apt to throw the baby out with the bathwater. When you like hang your hat on something and you're so sure that it is what happened without throwing the disclaimer out there, like, hey, this is just something I'm investigating and playing around with. I don't really know for sure, but when you, when you highlight that certainty, it can turn people off. Chance 00:10:02.850 - 00:11:23.600 Yeah, exactly. And I think ultimately if, if there is any kind of like, agenda behind the Tartaria movement, that might be it. To derail other actually important, I guess, conspiracy or truth or information by discrediting people or distracting people who would be sharing actual useful, anti establishment, anti pharma type information. And there's a demoralization element to it too, which we'll talk about. But yeah, I got into doing some research on the Book of Revelation presented about how the provenance of that book, like where it comes from in history. It like how how it came down to us in the modern time is not in any way the same canonical package of work as the gospels or the rest of the Bible. And there's a very good possibility that it was created much, much later, hundreds of years, potentially later than the other scriptures, maybe even as far late as the Renaissance. And the reason I did this research and presented that information was to just show, like, look, people are taking this book seriously, like it's some sort of prophecy of the end times. And you guys have seen it, right? Your whole life, whatever's going on this year, like, oh, look how it connects to the book of Revelation. We must be, he's coming back soon. Joel 00:11:23.680 - 00:11:26.640 I was, I was right. I'm very familiar. Chance 00:11:27.200 - 00:12:32.850 Yeah, right. And the whole defeatism of the religious minded person that thinks there's no point to actually trying to improve myself for the world because it's a fallen world and it's just going to be raptured soon anyway. So like bring up, I mean, during the Iran invasion or war that just happened, there were officers telling the soldiers allegedly that they were hastening the apocalypse by embarking on this campaign. Like we're doing this to help bring Jesus back sooner, basically. Like, this is the kind of, this is the kind of thing, man, and that's been my bone to pick with religion this whole time, is how it's a conditioning mechanism to get people to do stuff that they otherwise wouldn't do or support things that they otherwise wouldn't, rationally or consciously, morally wouldn't. Yeah, you know, wouldn't support or do. Right. I mean, what, what war can you name that doesn't have a big war that doesn't have some religious component behind it? And it's the big three, the Abrahamics, that are always behind it. So. Yeah, and we're getting a little off topic. Joel 00:12:32.850 - 00:12:33.410 That's all right. Chance 00:12:33.410 - 00:12:34.170 But that's what. Joel 00:12:34.410 - 00:12:56.610 So what I want to ask is this. So I'm a naive conspiracy researcher researching Tartaria for the first time. Why am I going to be sucked down into this rabbit hole? Why is this going to make sense? Why is this going to be something I want to believe? You know, the connection between mud, floods and the World's Fairs and all these amazing stuff that we used to be able to do that we can't do now? Chance 00:12:58.690 - 00:15:00.050 Yeah, well, I think it's different for different people. But if I was to just put it in a nutshell, it's the psychology of conspiracy culture itself, which is, has become, there's a couple elements to it. There's a social element. That's really interesting when you think about how previous times of conspiracy culture, if you were a conspiracy theorist or truther, this was a very isolated position to be in socially. Like it disconnected you from the people in your life. You got, you know, you could potentially be outcast for sharing that you think these contrarian things. But as the Internet has evolved, people are now forming subgroup subcultures, online communities around particular conspiracy theories. And the funny thing about that is it now has the. These subcultures have shaped their own dogmas and have their own in group preference. That is a sort of like belief system package that you have to accept and talk about with the subculture, like if you want to be accepted by the group. Right. So there's a real, there's a real like replacement of mainstream culture with conspiracy subculture as a social group. For a lot of people right now they consider themselves truthers, which makes it, you know, that's a peer pressure like reason why it's hard to discard or like let go of the beliefs. But where it's coming from in the first place, I think, I don't, I don't think this about all people who are interested in finding out the truth. But, but as a cultural movement, truth rism or conspiracy culture tends towards denial of their own state of victimhood. Right. Like it's anything that is. They are doing it to me. That's a theory about how they are doing this to me or like secretly have some power over me or the world. Conspiracy culture tends to just buy that and try to roll it into the package of the grand unifying conspiracy theory. Joel 00:15:00.510 - 00:15:00.710 Yeah. Chance 00:15:00.710 - 00:15:12.830 Of reality. And that's what Tartaria kind of has become, is like a sort of grand unifying theory for a bunch of other conspiracy ideas. And what would maybe attract somebody to it in the first place is what are the claims? Joel 00:15:13.070 - 00:15:14.470 What are the claims that are so attractive? Chance 00:15:14.470 - 00:17:01.550 Yeah, yeah, that's exactly I'm going to get into. Yeah. So that's the interesting thing about it when you think about Tartaria, old world reset narrative as a genre, because that's really what it is. It's a genre. There are specific elements to that genre. They get repeated from video to video. It's literally a formula. So what the formula is is they show some pictures of some building from the 1800s. They say the, the story about how they built this is suspicious or I don't think they really could have built this with a horse and cart or donkeys or whatever. They say something like that. How the population was too small at that time for them to need this type of a building. They couldn't have moved the materials. The logistics don't make sense. There's no construction record or documentation. Those are the kind of things that they always will. They just show you some old, old photo and say, and basically just project incredulity at the, the photo and the story around the photo. They'll usually go to the Wikipedia page. They might show the Wikipedia page and say, and just like read a little bit off of it and say this doesn't make any sense. And then, you know, the video will usually wrap up by about 20 minutes of showing a few photos and saying this doesn't make sense. It must be Tartaria. And that's pretty much all there is to it. That's all that anyone has to do if they want to be a successful creator in this genre. And in fact, it's really easy to get success in this genre for whatever reason. The algorithm, or just people are intrigued by it and want to click on, gets a lot of traction really easily. There's a, there's like a free, there's. Joel 00:17:01.550 - 00:17:07.830 Like a free energy component to it as well. Apparently these buildings were previous free energy conductors, right? Chance 00:17:07.830 - 00:18:14.120 Yes, yes, they will say that there's. They'll say that like the spires and towers on cathedrals or old buildings are actually harvesting free atmospheric electricity or something like that. Now, it's never been demonstrated that that's like being done or how that's being done. I've never, I've yet to see it be demonstrated in any way that would constitute some kind of proof or evidence. But that's what they say. They say that's why the design was like. That has nothing to do with the popularity of like Gothic style architecture in the 1800s, of course, even though there's a huge paper trail behind that and you know, architects and journals and blueprints and all the, all the things of that nature. And when we just look at the things from the part of what appeals to people about this, that is the disconnect for like then versus now is the 19th century, the 1800s and before, but especially the 1800s, people were just more serious about their craft, about their art, about, about beauty. Beauty, aesthetic. Yerasimos 00:18:14.120 - 00:18:14.440 Right? Chance 00:18:14.440 - 00:19:42.330 If you've ever been into an old theater, you know, go in and you see all of this like inlay and this design and trim work that goes all the way up into the ceiling and the ceiling will have some kind of like mural on it and it's all Just, it's so elaborate and aesthetically complicated, yet beautiful. And they built with things like, they clearly built with things like the golden ratio and other types of proportions and mathematics in the geometry on purpose to create that sense of aesthetic harmony. Like you look at that type of mindset behind building stuff and then you look at the modern world where it's just, it's just squares, squares two by four framing and sheetrock and it's all super cheap and, you know, not that good looking and all cookie cutter. Right. And you think, you compare what people can and will do now in construction to what they're doing back then, and there's a legitimate feeling of loss or betrayal. That's a real emotion that can come up. I'm not discounting that. Like, like what? Why did we used to have this and now we don't have this? They took it away from us. They took it from us. And you know, I won't even argue that maybe certain kinds of construction techniques have been suppressed or hidden. That's a real thing that happened in the history of masonry itself. Like guilds of craftsmen of any kind of sort would want to protect their skill and trade secret. Yerasimos 00:19:42.570 - 00:19:42.970 Right. Chance 00:19:43.370 - 00:19:59.800 That's like, that's a real, you know, that's a real thing. But ultimately it just comes down to I think, the economics. Exactly. The rate of growth of populations that as those things were ramping up and. Joel 00:19:59.960 - 00:20:06.360 Most importantly and concurrently with the rise of fiats and the reduction in the value of a dollar. Chance 00:20:06.360 - 00:20:44.840 Literally what I was about to say. That's literally what I was about to say. Right. Because a lot of these buildings come from what was called the Gilded Age in the United States. It was a long stretch of time where there was no central bank and everything was on the gold standard. States could manage and regulate their own currency for a big stretch of time even. Right. So economically speaking, it was called the Gilded Age because Americans were just way more wealthy in general and wealth hadn't been siphoned and transferred like after the Federal Reserve, for example. And even this, the confiscation of gold that happened, that brought everything down to requirement of being much cheaper. Joel 00:20:44.920 - 00:21:14.130 Yeah. And so people are living and creating from a state of low time preference as well. They're more invested in long term creation of beauty and esthetically pleasing things and functionally things. And less invested in. Let's get this done as fast and quick as possible to immediately gratify whatever the need is, you know, Thank you. Chance 00:21:18.370 - 00:21:19.330 Going on here. Joel 00:21:19.570 - 00:21:31.250 Hey guys, guys. I, I froze for that whole chunk After I finished my statement about load time preference, high time preference, we're able to jump back in then, because it's not on the recording at all. Mexico. Mexico. Chance 00:21:32.290 - 00:21:33.570 Okay. Jumping back in from. Joel 00:21:34.130 - 00:21:39.330 Yeah, you. You're responding to me saying, you know, everyone, just. No one lives, no one delays gratification anymore. Yerasimos 00:21:44.450 - 00:21:45.650 You're muted. You're muted. Chance 00:21:47.570 - 00:22:55.080 There is a real. I'm going to validate the emotional component of seeing that beautiful old world stuff and thinking that there's some loss, you know, the grief and loss behind that. But where I think there's an inversion is the Tartaria theory tells you that it's an older civilization that existed in the Americas and all over the world that built all this stuff, and then all the people just disappeared somehow. You know, there's varying. There's varying theories about how that happened. That the elites. I like to call them the Supermasons because usually they are masons in whatever video you watch that did it. The Supermasons have some advanced technology. They caused a global cataclysm that created a mud flood that buried most of these buildings. And so then whenever they brought in their population of cloned children to repopulate the places that they had just destroyed, they got those clone children, once they grew up a little bit, to dig all these nice buildings out from the mud. Yerasimos 00:22:55.400 - 00:22:57.960 Sounds like an L. Ron Hubbard science fiction novel, dude. Chance 00:22:58.340 - 00:23:00.580 It's insane. It's so insane. Joel 00:23:01.380 - 00:23:04.820 Are they. Are they the orphans? Is that the orphans that people refer to? Chance 00:23:05.220 - 00:24:11.260 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there were a lot of orphans in that era and there were orphan trains in that era, like they would actually. And I haven't looked into the orphan trains closely myself. There's so many wings of this theory. All I can do is one thing at a time if I'm going to do it justice. Because what's different about my research versus the typical Tartaria video is I don't just stay at the surface level Wikipedia description. I go find the primary source documents and records about. From the time about the thing. Right. So let's get into a couple specific examples, because I think my personal favorite work that I've done in the genre is on the insane asylums question. So if you look up 1800s insane asylums, you'll find out that whatever state you're in, there's probably at least one or two of these built where there's these huge. It's called like a bat wing design. It's like a shallow V shape. So it's like a really long building that is Narrow and long and slightly staggered. So it's like a shallow V like this. Joel 00:24:11.580 - 00:24:12.300 Okay, right. Chance 00:24:12.300 - 00:24:56.080 And they look like a crazy gothic castle. And the Tartaria theory always brings up these insane asylums and says, why would you need a building like this to be an insane asylum? Obviously the building was already here and they just repurposed it. And then they usually also will say that the purpose of the insane asylum narrative was that everyone that remembered the old world civilization that was a survivor of it or just had some kind of, like, folk memory of it and wouldn't keep their mouth shut, they got chucked into these castles pretending to be insane asylums that were actually concentration camps where they were then like executed or. Yerasimos 00:24:56.080 - 00:24:58.560 Whatever, drugged or whatever. Chance 00:24:59.600 - 00:25:40.750 The reason why, the reason why I think this is a really important facet to debunk of the theory is so far, this is the only part of the. This is the only way that I have found that the Tartaria Old World Reset theory can account for the problem of wouldn't people remember that there was a civilization or that these buildings were already here? Like, wouldn't there be some knowledge of this? How would you keep this completely scrubbed and suppressed from all human knowledge? Right. How, you know, apart from the fact that they, I guess, allegedly killed everybody and replaced everyone with clone children or something. So I went into looking into these. Yerasimos 00:25:40.750 - 00:25:42.110 Are we descendants of clones? Chance 00:25:43.470 - 00:27:09.480 It's. It's so wild how like, you know, most people that are into the genre, they only really. They only have like a shallow comprehension or they don't critically think about all of the problems, what that would be necessary to solve for this story to be true. Right. They just think they couldn't have built that. Yeah, they couldn't have built that. That's too crazy. How could they have built that? Cowboys couldn't build that. And that's pretty much as far as the regular person goes. So looking into the insane asylum thing, I went really deep on this. I have probably like over six hours of. Yeah, like over seven hours of content between two episodes Just, just investigating these asylums because I needed to prove a lot of stuff a. That they actually were built, you know, and I have. There's like dozens of them, but it probably at least 10 or 12. I show really detailed construction records about it, like down to finding the legislature that creates the need that hires the people. Like, you know, they say, show me the receipts. I found the fucking receipts of like, they spent this much on the mason to pay the masons. They spent this much to set up the steam Power. Like, I literally found the receipt books on a bunch of these asylums being built. Yerasimos 00:27:09.480 - 00:27:09.880 Wow. Chance 00:27:09.880 - 00:27:10.520 And I also. Yerasimos 00:27:10.760 - 00:27:23.900 Is it real quickly, are you, like, are you doing deep, deep Internet research? Like, where are you finding, like, the receipts for how much fucking, like, cement was poured to create? That is curious. Chance 00:27:24.140 - 00:29:06.530 Most of it I'm finding in, like, archive.org it's like a scanned or at county or state public record depositories. So, you know, every state legislature has someone who records the minutes of every meeting and everything they do. Right. And those are all published documents going back to the beginning of that state being a state. So I can just find out, like, okay, what year was it built? Well, let's go to that year or the year before and start digging into the state legislature documents and see what, you know, if they talked about whether or not they were going to build it. Like, for example, I found in Missouri, they built their first asylum where I'm from because they had meetings about not wanting to do it. They didn't think they needed to do it, even though a lot of other states were building these big asylums. And I'll talk about why that is, because that's really interesting. And then the governor of Missouri committed suicide, and they're like, oh, we maybe should worry about mental health a little bit more because our governor committed suicide. Right. And that is what, like, that's what I learned looking into why would they want to build it. Now, backing up a little bit, the other part of the research on the asylums that I found super fascinating and is a shame that the Tartaria theory just paints this whole crazy architecture of asylums, which, admittedly, they're very impressive and very big, and they seem, you know, spooky to modern eyes. Trained by horror movies to think Gothic castle architecture equals, like, the Addams Family or whatever. Right? But what I found out was that there was a lineage of. They call themselves alienists, not psychology. Joel 00:29:08.850 - 00:29:22.540 Hell, Guys. Sorry, man. Hang on. It's crazy. I don't know. It's so glitchy today. I can't hear you guys. Can you speak your response? Yerasimos 00:29:23.420 - 00:29:23.940 Can you hear me? Joel 00:29:23.940 - 00:29:29.980 Oh, you're back now. 36 Minutes. Yeah, so just. Sorry, bro. Start again at alienists. Yerasimos 00:29:30.620 - 00:29:32.340 Is there things open like that can be. Joel 00:29:32.340 - 00:29:43.210 No, no, it's Internet. It's straight Internet. Yeah. If you can come back in that. Talking about alienists, these guys call themselves. Chance 00:29:43.210 - 00:35:04.019 Alienists because they believed that being insane alienated you from society and that the cure for insanity was also to remove you from society from the causes of the Stress and stuff and, like, why now? There's so many questions that I had to answer to make the insane asylum story make sense. But the first one was, why would they build buildings like that? And what I found was an entire paper trail, books going back into Europe, mostly starting with Quakers actually, where they. They realized that, you know, maybe chaining crazy people to the wall in the basement of the jail, like in a dungeon, essentially isn't the best way to deal with mental health problems. Maybe there's a better way to do it. And Quakers actually started this facility, you could call it, in England, where they're trying to give people, like, a nice environment and a nice place to recuperate. And over time, that idea started to become more popular to the point where what these guys called it, they had a philosophy called environmental determinism that. And tell me what you think this sounds like. Okay. In modern. In modern terminology, these guys believed that having fresh air, clean food, clean water, a nice aesthetically pleasing place to live and access to nature and a lot of personal space would help you have a healthier mind and body, an overall terrain perspective. Terrain medicine. Yeah. So the reason why they built these giant castle insane asylums and the reason they were shaped the way they were shaped is because they wanted to create an environment for healing for people who had mental illness. And it turns out that they had a lot of success at first, but their problem was they became massively overcrowded really quickly. Because the time period where these were getting built and this was all happening was also when population was booming in the United States. A lot of immigrants, people were having more kids, people were living longer, and industrialization and urbanization was taking hold. So what used to be a family problem, you know, Uncle Johnny's kind of losing his marbles, but we just kind of take care of him and make sure he doesn't roam too far away from the farm. That became a different situation. When people are looking, living in compacted, like, apartment buildings and smaller quarters in a city, working in a factory job, they're not even at home when they're doing their work. Who's going to take care of crazy Uncle Johnny? Right? It started to become a real problem such that the state, like individual states, took up the cause to try to deal with it and started building mental health institutions. And then also, you got to think of, at the time, they would consider stuff like alcoholism, like religious mania or fanaticism, you know, just general not going with this. The program of what society thinks you should do. Like, lots of things might get categorized as insanity and get you chucked into the asylum. At that time, it was sort of a catch all for people who just weren't fitting in to society. And I'll be honest, it's not like it was all sunshine and roses and nothing bad ever happened at these facilities. One of the crazy things is to look at the mass graves at the insane asylums, which the Tartaria theory is like. See, they were extermination camps and really it was just poor people over the course of decades and decades, potentially over 150 years in some of the cases at these facilities, getting buried on the property because they had no family or anyone to claim them or give them a burial. Right. It's not like it looks crazy when you see a row of unmarked graves, hundreds of graves when you dig into like what, why that would be the case. It's the same as like at any hospital of the era. That was just something that they did. They would just give them inexpensive burial and put a little marker, maybe just a number on the marker that tied back to the record of the patient number, things like that. So essentially what Tartaria theory has said about the insane asylums is that this is the necessary explanation for why nobody kept, nobody talked about or remembered the old world, right? And as soon as you start to investigate it, you find out there's a specific ideology for why the buildings were built this way. There was a social need for the facilities in the first place. And there are even though, I mean, like, what I do in a lot of my videos is I just show you clips of a popular Tartaria researcher saying a thing like the, the. This insane asylum in Iowa has architect and no construction record attached to it. And then I play that clip and then I show you the record of construction across many documents. I show you photos of sometimes of pre before it's even done being built. I show you the architect that this guy just told you didn't exist. Like, basically my videos are mostly just showing you how these channels constantly lie and mislead and nobody bothers to check what they're claiming. And as soon as you check any of their claims, it all just falls apart. Joel 00:35:04.419 - 00:35:10.259 What's been some of like the, the responses from like these channel owners and these people, you know, spouting these theories. Chance 00:35:10.658 - 00:35:28.170 Well, the channel owners won't engage with me. You know, if they were to respond to me or like name me or my channel in their videos, they would have a serious blow to their credibility on their hands. Right? They have to so far Pretend like what I'm doing doesn't exist. Yerasimos 00:35:28.730 - 00:35:39.610 So it's the adherence to those people's challenge. It's the people that like, pay attention and follow them, that are the ones that are coming after you because you're like, don't go after my guru. That I'm giving my power away to. Chance 00:35:39.850 - 00:36:23.770 Oh, well. The first person that I covered was Howdy Mikoski and his book exposing the expositions. And the reason I started there is because I had Howdy on my show like five or six years ago. I believed the narrative that Tartaria Old World Cover up Reset Theory said about the World's Fairs. I had him on, I read his book. I never did any due diligence to check into the claims for myself. I was just like, yeah, this is weird, man. You know, like, yeah, back when I believed this stuff, I was getting high a lot. And I think that might have something to do with it. Marijuana puts you in a more receptive state. And I think a lot of people that are into this stuff and paranoid. Yerasimos 00:36:23.770 - 00:36:24.410 Paranoid state. Chance 00:36:24.410 - 00:36:28.010 Potentially a lot of marijuana. Just a possibility. Anyway, I. Joel 00:36:28.010 - 00:36:36.730 Look, thank you for saying that, man. I mean, I think it's something that's kind of unspoken in terms of like the connection to, you know, what gives rise to this in such a nice level. For sure. Yerasimos 00:36:36.730 - 00:37:27.140 Well, also, also too, like, yes, you have a show and you're open to having people on and have these conversations. But I think what we see, and you brought it up earlier, the psychological piece, is that, you know, in the beginning, when you're going down the rabbit holes, when you're questioning narratives, when you're just like, fuck, they've lied to us, then it's like anything that gets dangled in that part of your psyche is at the wheel, they've lied to us, they've lied to us, they've lied to us. And you're just like, see, they've done it here, see they've done it there. And it takes a level of psychological maturity at some point to go, okay, well, this actually has some solid evidence to ground to be grounded on. But then this stuff doesn't really. And can I be discerning of that matter? But I feel like for a lot of young people in the beginning and the conspiracy movement, etcetera, it's just like fucking gobbling it all up and just being like, it's not just young, it's. Chance 00:37:27.140 - 00:37:28.700 Not actually boomer, such as young people. Joel 00:37:28.700 - 00:37:31.380 Just being, well, no, I'm young. Yerasimos 00:37:31.380 - 00:37:49.780 I mean, I mean, I don't mean young Age only. I mean, young in terms of people who are into this stuff, I feel like. And, but again, you don't have to be just young into it because it depends on your psychology. You could be frozen in a certain psychological state and be 30 years of this stuff as well. So obviously it's not black and white. Chance 00:37:49.940 - 00:42:05.780 Well, okay, so back to the howdy thing. I, you know, I have nothing against him as a person. I'll just say that up front. But I believed that theory. I had him on, you know, shared his work. So I'm coming into this from a place of holy shit, I was wrong and I shared wrong information. I have to do something about that right and integrity. The beginning. I also wasn't sure whether or not the Tartaria theory was all wrong or what. Like, I just, I mostly wanted to deal with the millennial reign situation and it was connected to the Tartaria thing. So I went into this with a pure open mind of I'm just looking for evidence one way or the other. And in kind of like an X Files I want to believe way, I was rooting for the conspiracy theory to be true because that's more interesting to talk about and probably would have, you know, helped my popularity more than hurt it. So I, I covered his exposing the expositions book. I go through all the claims. I did a whole episode about the Chicago World's Fair. I showed how every one of his claims is either defeated by the evidence that he puts in his own book. Like this is a big thing with Tartaria theory is they will defeat their own claim with evidence that they show later and not even know they did it. And that's, it's super self defeating constantly. And that's interesting. Like what is going on with that? But then there's this thing called the Mott and Bailey fallacy. It's a lesser known logical fallacy. You could call it like a minor logical fallacy. It's not one of the main ones you learn about, but it's essentially what your Asmos was just saying. He's like, well, we know that they've been lying to us. So I'm just going to accept that this thing that I'm being told about how they're lying to us must also be true. The Mott and Bailey fallacy. It comes from the idea of like castle defense where you'd have the courtyard or the bailey of the castle has all this valuable shit like the blacksmith and maybe a farm and things like that. It's like a little miniature city. But it's hard to hold, it's open, it's not easy to defend. Maybe there's just like a wall and a gate and that's all it's got going for it. And sometimes not even that. And then you have the Mott, which is. Or a tower, essentially. That's usually like on a hill, there's a tower, there's really nothing of value in it, but you can hole up in there and ride out a siege for a while, shoot down with your arrows, and they can't really get in or get to you. So the Bailey is hard to defend, the tower, the Mott is easy to defend. And what this logical fallacy is about is when somebody makes a claim that's like really hard to defend, really outrageous, they really have no evidence or proof behind it. Like, the Chicago World's Fair was already. All the buildings already existed, and people just dug it out in the mud and then they destroyed it later to hide the evidence of the old world. Okay, that's the Bailey. Impossible for them to actually defend that. And so when they get pressed on it or even in their own book, like with Howdy in his own book, he constantly retreats back to, well, I don't know. But I know that they're lying to us about history. We know that history is, is a lie. So they can easily defend that claim that history has lies in it. Okay, everyone can agree with that. That's easy to defend. So then once they've defended the easy thing, they act like they held the Bailey, they act like they defended the hard thing, as if the easy thing proves the hard thing. And that's really what you have to be careful with, with what you accept into your worldview is like, okay, if you're accepting item C into your worldview, but it's reliant on items B and A. Did you ever check to see if B and A exist or were real? And that's, you know, that's the issue that we're facing. And back to the question a few minutes ago about, like, what are some. Why I brought up Howdy. You know, keep in mind this is a guy that his newest work is about the Plato's Cave being a literal metaphor and how like, the world is a gnostic archon prison. And like, you know, the. The goal of life is to escape from existence and never reincarnate and essentially, you know, go into an oblivion state of non existence. That's nirvana to you. Joel 00:42:05.940 - 00:42:10.580 Yeah, it's like. Please reference our last episode. This is not a simulation with chance Garden. Yep. Chance 00:42:10.580 - 00:44:08.610 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that was our last time together, man. I'm. I'm so over that bullshit. So, you know, this is the worldview. That's that the guy who wrote the World's Fair Chicago World. Chicago World's Fair book had the whole time. And it's even in that book where one of the explanations for how this is possible, of the. The reset theory is maybe they just reset the simulation at a certain point and made it look like there's all this real history behind things, but really it's not that old, and they just reprogram the simulation. This is a problem in philosophy called Last Thursday Ism. It's kind of a joke in philosophy where it goes like, how do you know that the universe is as old as it appears to be? It could have all just been created last Thursday, but designed in a way that makes it look like it's older. And this is what's rife in these kind of. Kind of conspiracy theories is they. They make claims that are unfalsifiable, and then they hang on to those, like. Because nobody can. Nobody can disprove something that can't be proven in the first place, that there's no proof of in the first place. You know? So, like, I don't deal with the unfalsifiable claims. I just go straight for, like, what are they saying? That I can actually check whether or not is true. And that's what I go after. And a list someone after my Howdy episode why I've been rambling around this point. But the comment I remember most of all the crazy comments I've got from people that are believers was, Howdy, Mikoski is the way, the truth, and the life. Somebody commented that to me, and then they called me, like, a great deceiver or something. People have called me a Jew. People have called me a Mason. They say that I'm controlled opposition. How much are you getting paid to do this? And I'm like, bro, I'm losing money to do this, but, you know, I'd love to get paid. Can you point me to where I can send in an application to be paid? Yerasimos 00:44:08.690 - 00:44:10.930 Get those shekels. Get those shekels deposited. Joel 00:44:12.610 - 00:44:14.210 I wish those 7k checks were real. Chance 00:44:16.700 - 00:44:53.250 Yeah. But there does appear to be some, like, artificial momentum behind the movement. And when you look into what's happened in the last couple years, most of the biggest big channels that have just propped up in, like, 2025, 2026 in the genre are full AI productions where it's like an AI voiceover. It's AI video. It's AI image, like, photos. And the whole thing is completely fake. And I just catch them constantly. You know, it's in my algorithm now because I've been looking at it. Just the other day, one came up that showed a picture of the Chicago World's Fair. Can I screen share? Joel 00:44:53.330 - 00:44:54.210 Yeah, man, of course. Chance 00:44:54.850 - 00:45:45.340 Let me just pull that up real quick because this one is super funny. Cause I can. I immediately recognized it just because of my own kind of, like, background in being a gamer. But here is one that I saw just the other day. All right, so do you see this? I comment. I don't understand where you get out of this deceptive stuff. Yep. This is a photo of the Chicago World's Fair. And they have above it some kind of, like, floating city. And the caption of this Tartaria Instagram channel says. What is it? She whispered, it's a rare photo. I don't get it. What's so special? Asked the little boy. Well, dear, I'll tell you, said his grandmother, someone forgot to put vanilla in the sky. Okay, so what we're looking at here,. Joel 00:45:45.340 - 00:45:47.140 Is that one in there as well? Chance 00:45:47.780 - 00:45:51.820 Oh, yeah, yeah. They're throwing a zeppelin. Of course. Let me see. I want to. Joel 00:45:51.820 - 00:45:52.260 Let me. Chance 00:45:52.580 - 00:48:12.080 Okay. Bioshock Infinite is a video game, Floating city. I recognize this because I played this game, like, 10 years ago or 12 years ago. So see this right here? This is a floating city from a video game. Wow. And they just photoshopped that onto the sky. Chicago World's Fair photo. And people are just like. In the comments, they're all just like, wow, I knew it. This is amazing. And this is what they're doing, you know, like, this is what is popular in the genre is to. And I did. I think maybe this person saw this picture somewhere else and shared it, and they never checked. I don't even know that this person themselves. Their use of grammar makes me think they don't even have the skill level to do a Photoshop job like that. And it's. So this is. This is what passes as, like, good stuff for another one. There's a channel called My Lunch Break that's really popular. And I saw a reel by him a couple weeks ago where he's showing a photo of building at the St. Louis World's Fair, which happened in, like, 1903, 1904. And on the build on the side of the building, there's a plaque that has a date. 1803 Or 1804. It's one of those. And in the video, he's, like, undeniable proof that this building is older than they said, that it was really built in 1803, not in 1903, when the St. Louis World's Fair happened and some kind of mud flood covered it up. And they're just digging it out, see, because, you know, the ground is all muddy around the building because it's a construction site by a r. By just deleting. Yerasimos 00:48:12.080 - 00:48:16.410 Well, tell Joel that, because he tends to handle more of the. The tech. The tech stuff. Chance 00:48:17.050 - 00:48:18.890 We'll talk about it after. After we're done. Joel 00:48:19.050 - 00:48:22.330 One second, guys. This was ridiculous. Sorry. Home. Chance 00:48:24.170 - 00:48:27.650 It's the. It's the Supermasons. They don't want me talking about this, obviously. Joel 00:48:27.650 - 00:48:29.330 I'm starting to think Chance was saying. Yerasimos 00:48:29.330 - 00:48:30.330 To try Riverside again. Joel 00:48:34.570 - 00:48:36.250 What is that better for? Like, cutout? Yerasimos 00:48:45.060 - 00:48:45.380 Hello? Chance 00:48:46.020 - 00:48:50.260 It's got all these crazy AI tools for editing to be way easier and faster. Yerasimos 00:48:50.500 - 00:48:55.860 Do you need to change where you. Where you're located on the screen, or does it, like, now? Or does he have to fix it? Joel 00:48:56.340 - 00:49:02.260 No, that's fine. Sorry. It's never happens this often. All right. Yerasimos 00:49:04.260 - 00:49:06.340 You're a little blurry right now, too, to me. Joel 00:49:08.440 - 00:49:08.920 That's right. Chance 00:49:09.320 - 00:49:10.520 It's clear on my end. Joel 00:49:14.040 - 00:49:19.800 Okay. I. I was losing it at St. Louis World Fair. Chance 00:49:21.480 - 00:49:23.480 Should I just, like, tell that story again? Joel 00:49:25.320 - 00:49:26.040 Yeah, sure. Chance 00:49:26.840 - 00:50:35.530 Okay. So there's this channel called My Lunch Break, and it's one of the most popular channels in the whole genre. Also, he. He does fundraisers and advertisements for, like, big pharma stuff. Wonder what that's about. The guy had a reel where he showed a photo of the St. Louis World's Fair, a building that had a. That a fair that happened in 1903, 1904. And there's a plaque on the side of the building with the date either 1803 or 1804, one of those years. And he literally says in the video, undeniable proof that this building is older than we're told. And they just dug it out of the mud. What he doesn't mention in his reel or his video is that other. He names the fair the Louisiana Purchase Exposition. Great. That is the name of the fair because it was themed for the 100 year anniversary of the Louisiana Purchase, which happened the. The year of the date plaque that's on the building. So there's no undeniable proof that this is a building that's 100 years older than we're told. There's undeniable proof that they decorated the building facade Based on the theme of the event. Yerasimos 00:50:36.010 - 00:50:36.290 Right? Chance 00:50:36.290 - 00:52:33.930 But he just doesn't say that. And then you have all these hundreds and hundreds thou. I think it had over a hundred thousand views. And most of the comments were just like, I knew they were lying to us about the fair. Undeniable proof. Nice one, mate. And I'm like, guys, it's the literally the fastest thing to figure out, like, why would there be that date on this building? It's because that's the fair, the end. And that's the level of how easy it is for these guys to be popular while deceiving folks. Another channel, another channel that I covered recently actually had a guy on that was like a commenter on his Facebook post. So this dude leaves him a Facebook post that says, my grandpa or my great great grandpa was a mason who was sent to a to with a group of people to an empty city to populate it in the 1840s. And the Channel host jumps on. This comment is like, oh, you have to come on my show and share your story. And, you know, in the comment, he had claimed there's a secret journal from his great grandfather that tells the story. He never produces the journal. He tells a different. Different details of the story throughout the stream. Can't keep his own story straight. I looked into his ancestry and found that he was wrong about most of what he thought about who his own family is, like, through public record. So this is like, they'll. They'll just take anything that feels like it's true based on their worldview, and they'll put it out there. They'll never think about it critically if they find any evidence that disputes it. I actually Talked to this YouTube channel about him having a liar on his show. I was like, dude, this is totally wrong. And he just doubles down and tells me, no, you got to watch my. I know that there are problems with that one maybe, but you got to watch the next stream I did with the guy. And this is just like, he just had some old dude on who wanted attention to feel special and was making up a story like there was no. Yerasimos 00:52:33.930 - 00:52:36.170 Truth, which happens more often than we'd like. Joel 00:52:36.170 - 00:52:53.360 Yeah, yeah. Hey, dude, back on the world fairs, did they just, like, did they just build these buildings single purposely to host these world fairs? Like, what. Can you give me more context on that? Because I think isn't even, like, the Eiffel Tower, wasn't that built for, like, a world fair at one point in time or something? Chance 00:52:54.480 - 00:53:00.880 I don't know about the Eiffel Tower. The only One I've looked into really deep is St. Louis and Chicago. Joel 00:53:01.040 - 00:53:01.480 Okay. Chance 00:53:01.480 - 00:55:20.010 Because those are the two ones that mostly get pointed to in the genre. And I know that in Paris, the expositions, they've had more than one were like, really over the top, super, super advanced stuff. And, you know, there's. There's possible conspiratorial readings of the world fairs in the sense that you have. There is some weird shit happening there, like the. Some racism type stuff, like human zoos. Weird stuff was happening at the time, don't get me wrong. But to answer, like, the question I set out to answer wasn't, are these fairs totally on the up and up? And there's nothing shady about it. My question was, did these buildings already exist or could they have really built them? And so when I looked into that question, I answered that question conclusively. There's. There's blueprints of all the buildings at the Chicago World Fair. There's a book of blueprints to all the buildings. And they usually will say, there's like. In the Howdy McCoskey book, he says, there's no surviving blueprints or drawings of the Chicago World's Fair. And then later in his book, he names the book that has all the blueprints and drawings in it in a different. Talking about something else, I'm like, do you realize you contradicted yourself right here? And so what they. They did build most of those buildings to be temporary. And how that was achieved was with wood framing, sometimes some steel framing for the bigger buildings that needed structural support. And some of them were very big. Like the Chicago World's Fair, the manufacturer's building, I think it was. Was the biggest building in the world at the time, the biggest structure. So you see details like that, and you're like, this is weird. Like, why would this happen? When you put it on a budget level, or to go back to the construction technique, you know, they built the framing, they hung, they cast a particular type of plaster called staff. And I have all the details about how that was made, what was made out of. They use molds and this staff type of plaster to create the appearance of, like, carved and chiseled stonework, things like that. But it's really just a type of plaster. It's like a Hollywood movie set. You know, it looks really impressive when you're looking at the old timey black and white photos. That's. Joel 00:55:20.490 - 00:55:21.850 I didn't know that. Wow. Chance 00:55:21.930 - 00:55:47.950 Yeah. In reality, it's like a movie set. So when you look at the budget behind these things and you find the receipts of like, how much of each material they brought in, how they were transporting the materials, how they were. All of this stuff is, is recorded even like down to the engineering calculations of how they decided whether or not a proposed building was going to be able to handle the structural weight and load that they were trying to put on it. Joel 00:55:47.950 - 00:55:50.750 So, like, when we see images of like the Chicago World Fair, we see this. Chance 00:55:50.750 - 00:57:10.030 Imagine, like just to finish that thought, like, imagine, you know, I don't have the number in front of me, right. But imagine today an event that is thrown that I think in the ballpark of what they spent at the time to modern money for the Chicago World's fair is like 600, $800 million of modern money. If I, you know, ballparking. Don't quote me on that. It's in my actual episode. I have the real number. So if you could imagine an event that's going to be put on, that is going to draw people from all around the world, all around the country, and it's going to be hosted in the same spot for the entirety of the warm part of the year. So like more than half a year. Can you imagine somebody or like a group in modern time spending 6 or $800 million on an event that's going to last most of the better part of a year and draw people from all around the world? Yeah, I can, I can, I can imagine someone spending that kind of money, even though it's like technically impressive and, and crazy that they did it. And when you look at it from the perspective of these buildings were really stone, you know, like the Tartaria theory says, then it becomes hard to believe. But when you find out how they really built it and you see all the photos of the buildings in different phases of construction is really well documented. Joel 00:57:11.710 - 00:57:24.820 I want to share my screen for a section for a second. So this is the Chicago's World Fair. So you're saying like, this is like a temporary molded structure, like these beautiful domes and carved out pieces and things like that? Yerasimos 00:57:27.940 - 00:57:29.860 Bro, I can't believe you. An AI photo, bro. Joel 00:57:29.860 - 00:57:31.220 You're on mute. You're on mute chance. Chance 00:57:32.740 - 00:57:33.700 You're muted. Yerasimos 00:57:33.940 - 00:57:34.900 You're muted, bro. Chance 00:57:36.820 - 00:57:52.500 Let me make sure I know exactly what building that is, because there was a couple of buildings that were built to be permanent, actually. Oh. But yes, most of those buildings, like the ones off to the side, for sure, were in fact temporary structures built with that framing and staff. Joel 00:57:52.900 - 00:57:53.380 Wow. Chance 00:57:54.260 - 00:58:04.100 Yeah. Situation. And when you think about Chicago at the time, Chicago was The lumber working hub of the whole country. Yerasimos 00:58:04.740 - 00:58:05.060 Right. Chance 00:58:05.060 - 00:58:48.110 All the logging that was happening in the region routed through Chicago. They had all this woodworking capability. They also were a central railroad hub right in the middle of the country. So bringing in people to do this work was easy. Like they could hire craftsmen from anywhere, get on a train and come to Chicago and work on this project if they wanted to, like. So getting the people, no problem. They had. They were able to deploy rail spurs to the site, which is like, you know, a railroad track that just is temporary and ends at one spot. So they could bring a rail car up with all the materials, unload it and send it back. Like all of, all of the logistics check out as possible. Of course. Joel 00:58:48.110 - 00:59:22.690 Of course. Well, that kind of leads me to where I want to get into because obviously there's so much of this we could explore and unpack. But can you talk about the demoralization aspect of this? Because I also see it as like, very reductionistic in terms of like, what are human beings capable of? What a human mind can create, conceive and achieve. And I think for us and our platform and what we share, it's like we, of course, we believe that humans have incredible ingenuity and capabilities and we see it all the time. And yet this idea that, oh, we can't do that anymore, so it must have been extraterrestrial or supernatural or something otherworldly. Chance 00:59:23.890 - 01:01:23.940 Yeah. Like, let's return to that whole Graham Hancock thing in a minute. But, but the demoralization, you pretty much just nailed it on the head. This is you, you're being told and you're accepting into your worldview that humans couldn't have built these things, or that your ancestors, your great great grandfathers or triple great grandfathers, whatever, depending on the era, couldn't have done that. Right. In reality, men of that time period, a lot of them had a bunch of different skills that they were good at. All of them, they were like true Renaissance men back then. And to say to diminish the capabilities of your own ancestors and say that some, you know, Tartarian empire did this, Tartaria, for the record, is on old maps. It's the. A label to describe what is now called Mongolia and the area between China and Russia. So Tartars were just a group of nomadic people, like Mongolians. And that name, Tartary was just a catch all label for a part of the world that wasn't very well known about for Europeans. And the reason it got erased off of maps wasn't a conspiracy. It was, it Became more known who these people were and what that place was. And it wasn't really called Tartary. So what's the point of, like. It blows my mind that because this place, Tartary, used to exist, used to be labeled on maps, and now it's not equals. That must be the civilization that built all of this old world architecture. When the peoples of that were of that area and the Tartar peoples of that era, they leave behind no literature. They have no architecture in their land. Like, there is no civilization. It's nomadic, like horse tribes, right? Like, what. What are we doing here? Joel 01:01:24.500 - 01:01:32.420 So how do they even, like, make that connotation in the first place? Oh, this must be what it was. This random Asian label that we slept on. Yerasimos 01:01:32.420 - 01:01:32.580 This. Joel 01:01:32.580 - 01:01:34.260 This area must be. Chance 01:01:34.420 - 01:03:20.050 And then where does that come from? And that's. This is something I'm going to get into more deeply in the future. My co researcher, Dylan, has got a whole project that he's been doing to support this work where he's looked into the history of Tartary really closely. And we're gonna. It's very interesting. Like, there's. There is a real history there. There's no gap in the record of, like, what those people were doing in history. But the next step is also to, like, figure out where did this conspiracy theory come from. I think it starts with Anatoly Fomenko. And it's not Fomenko himself that is the origin of it, but he's the guy that the hat gets hung on. His work of phantom time and problems in chronology. You know, I've looked into Flamenco's work somewhat. It's really vast and. And hard to digest. So I can't claim that I'm familiar with all of it. And I found things that checked out and I found things that didn't check out. And what I did look at, but what happened is. And I can't remember his name. I'm gonna do a whole episode where I cover this more closely once I've done the research. But I did find out that there was like a Russian guy who was sort of a, you know, like a New Agey psychic, charlatan type, spiritualism type from the 70s who invented, seemingly invented, the Tartaria old world civilization theory back then. And it's just been sort of like a little poorly known conspiracy theory for decades. And then at a certain point, it took off on the Internet and became like the thing. So that's. I think where it comes from is actually from a Russian guy. Yerasimos 01:03:20.050 - 01:03:33.550 Hey, Chance, quick question. Obviously, when People talk about this subject, they talk about the mud floods. Like, to back that up, any of these people that are pushing these claims, like, is there any geological evidence to. To highlight that there's been a mud flood? Chance 01:03:35.230 - 01:11:33.690 Mud floods happen. They do happen, yeah. I mean like liquefaction of the ground is a real phenomenon. But what Tartaria theory is telling you is that liquefaction of the ground happened worldwide and it reset the whole, whole world. Right when we see it, it's like isolated around an earthquake. And so it does happen as a real thing. But it's when the main reason that they say mud flood is because they'll see some old building and there'll be like a half of a window, you know, and then the sidewalk or something like that. And they're just completely missing the point that buildings were built that way on purpose a lot of the time. Because the basement, you know, they didn't have electricity when they built the building. So they needed like a natural light source and ventilation source or a lot of times like servant quarters and kitchens were put at the lowest floor. So they needed. They had these little windows where they could pass through groceries or supplies or whatever. Like this is a well documented construction technique that happened for a reason. And then there's a few cases where like the city of Chicago, for example, would change the street level grading of its own city. So they would raise street level back when they had dirt roads mostly. And some, in some rare instances, you might be able to point to an example where a building really did get partially buried from what its original ground floor was. But that is just a theoretical. I've never actually seen an example of that being the case. I do know that they do change the street level in the 1800s in towns like Chicago regularly as a way to try to plan a city better. That's just been expanding rapidly with very little organization. And another thing I did recently was I looked into the great Chicago Fire. Because a big part of the Tartaria worldview is that the many great fires that have happened in the history of the. Of cities, in the early days of big urbanization and industrialization especially, well, those great fires were actually like the Supermasons were bombing the Tartarian architecture from the sky in airships and zeppelins. And that's why the great fires happened. It was to destroy the evidence of Tartaria. So when I looked into this for Chicago, because that's the one they look at, they point at the most often, I found why Chicago burned, how it burned all the like how they were building their buildings at that time. The fact that the literal sidewalks were made of wood planks and the, the streets were paved with wood blocks coated in tar pitch, which is flammable. Right. They were building what looked like some stone and brick buildings. In reality they were what's called balloon construction, or at the time Chicago construction, because it was invented back then, which is a lot like how we build things now. They figured out that they could build once they had mass produced nails and like lumber yards that were manufacturing consistent two by four shapes and stuff. And you didn't need to get a carpenter to personally by hand cut the wood for you and shape the wood for you. You could get all these materials like stock and the same. It turned what used to be a multi man process of having a mortise and tenon style joining for your framing, which is where you make like a little plug and you have to like fit the wood, the logs together with like a plug and a hole. And because you didn't have nails at that time that were easy to come by, it changed from that which were bigger logs to the balloon construction Chicago style framing, which is like two guys with a hammer and a bag of nails, and some two by fours could frame an entire building by themselves, as opposed to needing like 20 guys to raise a barn before that. So when Chicago was growing really rapidly in the 1800s, the reason it was growing so fast is because they had access to all the lumber in the whole country. They had innovated this new style of construction that allowed them to frame building super fast. And then they were just basically mortaring bricks over the outside like a shell, sometimes using limestone. Well, when you get a, when you have a building with this kind of framing, you have streets and sidewalks that are flammable. You have a year where there's one inch of rain from July to the beginning of October when the fire happened. And all this stuff is really crowded and compacted together. You have the recipe for a city fire that could actually be as big as it actually was. And you know what they leave out of the story is the fact that in Chicago, that wasn't the only place where there was a big fire. Not even that day because of the weather conditions. There were fires in a two week span with the great Chicago Fire sitting right in the middle of that two week span all over the country, all over the continent. It was a bad year for fires. So what they'll never tell you in the Tartaria videos when they say they bombed Chicago to hide the Old world. Well, why don't you bring up the fact that farmland and tiny towns and villages got burned too? Like, what was the point of burning all of those lumberjacks and farmer farmers, you know, what was that hiding? They had big wildfires because of the slash and burn techniques they were doing at the time, around the exact same moment as the Great Chicago Fire. And this goes into some more interesting stuff. So if you don't mind, I'm just going to kind of keep going. I looked into the astrology of the day, of the day of the Great Chicago Fire, because even though that might not be evidence to somebody, I just wanted to know, like, you know, that might give me some insight because I've found astrology to be extremely accurate. Of course, there was a Grand fire trine on the day of this great Chicago Fire. There were three planets in a perfect trine in fire signs on that day. So in my episode about the Great Chicago Fire, it's in the members only section, but I go into all of the things, things that the astrology said about that event for that location, for that day, for that time when it started. And it was like I found like four different causality chains in the astrology that said big fire, destruction of property and buildings. It was crazy. Like, you know, I'll just keep that to a tease because I go into it for like a half hour in the video. And if there's a grand fire trying that day, you might think that other places would catch on fire that day. And they did. There were fires in several Michigan and Wisconsin, basically. And a few places in Illinois, including Chicago, had huge fires, including the biggest loss of life in a fire in American history was on the same day as the Great Chicago Fire. And the people that died were farmers and lumberjacks in Wisconsin. So, like, how does that fit into your firebombing theory? And if the point of bombing Chicago to destroy the old world evidence was to, you know, hide the evidence, how come a bunch of the buildings that got destroyed that looked really grand and territory, and how come they rebuilt them bigger and better a couple of years later? Like, that doesn't hide the evidence very well. They rebuilt the same thing that just got destroyed in a more. A more elaborate way. Yeah, and this is the 1870s. These people are telling you that buildings up to like 1930 built in the 30s are actually already existing tartarian structures. They tell me that the Empire State building built in 1930 was already there and nobody noticed it or wrote about it and they were able to pass it off like, they just built it that year. Like, the level of insanity is. Is hard to reckon. Yerasimos 01:11:33.850 - 01:11:55.730 It's really. It's really interesting because I said this to Joel, and I think we live in these worlds of extremes, and it's really humbling to realize that even in the conspiracy world that, like, very often the simplest explanation is just ignored or not even looked for, not even entertained. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's not. Chance 01:11:55.730 - 01:12:07.740 They tell me all the time you're just repeating the mainstream history back to us. And I'm like, no, I'm not looking at Wikipedia. I'm not looking at history books. I'm showing you the primary source documents of what people at the time said. Yerasimos 01:12:08.220 - 01:12:43.530 Yes, that. And also sometimes the mainstream account isn't 100% wrong. And so it's like there may be nuggets that you can explore within that that get you closer to a place of truth than completely approaching something with what was told to us is 100% wrong. Now I need to go towards the thing that explains it in a much more elaborate sense. And so, again, it's this. It's this difficulty to dance with nuance and be discerning and take what makes sense here and take what makes sense there. And we're finding it more and more and more in this highly polarized world. Pick any issue, and we're seeing this. Joel 01:12:43.690 - 01:12:44.250 And what a. Yerasimos 01:12:44.250 - 01:12:44.530 What a. Joel 01:12:44.530 - 01:13:14.640 What an incredibly powerless states to just, you know, lean on. All of history is alive for your reasoning for everything. As if there's these people that have this perfect control over every single piece of information which ever gets disseminated into the public sphere. And everything around you is completely organized and coordinated to, like, puts you in a state of illusion 24 7. And then you can live your entire life justifying everything by just saying, don't you know that history is a lie? Chance 01:13:15.120 - 01:13:38.120 The irony of it, dude, is that a big sub section of the Tartaria Old World theorist, as I said, relates to conspiratorial Christianity and the little season theory and all that stuff. So while on one side of their belief system, they're saying all of history is a lie, on the other side of their belief system, they're saying the Bible is a literal history book. Joel 01:13:38.360 - 01:13:38.920 Yeah. Chance 01:13:39.720 - 01:15:41.420 So, which I've done tons of work on showing how mythology, not just the Bible, but mythology in general, has been leveraged throughout millennia by nobles and kings and rulers to create a justification for their divine right to be in charge. And I literally just published an episode that's coming out tomorrow about how Jason the story of Jason and the Argonauts from ancient Greece did that very thing. And that's like the oldest, farthest back version of it that I can find. Where like, you know, Alexander the Great and his, his cohort were tracing the re like their legitimacy of their conquering of different parts of the world under a Greek banner. Back to the idea that some of the Argonauts from Jason and the Argonaut Smith actually started that country or whatever. Right. And we see this in the world today. Look at the situation in the Israel, Gaza thing. It's much easier to justify a takeover if you couch it in the terminology of, well, we're just. It's a homecoming. This is our ancestral land. And I mean a big chunk of my work in the last couple years has been showing different facets of so called history and ancient history that are really just based on trying to make the Bible true as a history book, disregarding all the other really beautiful useful stuff in the Bible, particularly the astro theology. And that's like no, no, no, no, that's the devil, right? Astrology is the devil, Tarot cards are the devil. But the Bible is a history book and it really happened. And then everything else that I'm told is history is, is a lie. So like, it's just, they have it so perfectly backwards. It's almost, it almost boggles the mind like what happened here. And I want to give a little addition to what I was saying about the Great Chicago Fire because when I was researching that. You guys know who Ignatius Donnelly is? Yerasimos 01:15:41.420 - 01:15:41.820 Yeah. Chance 01:15:42.700 - 01:15:55.300 So Ignatius Donnelly, he's kind of like the, the modern origin of the entire genre of alternative history. Advanced ancient civilization based on cataclysm. Yerasimos 01:15:55.300 - 01:15:56.540 Michael brings him up a lot. Chance 01:15:56.860 - 01:20:33.530 Yeah. And well, I, I found some serious problems with Donnelly in my investigation of it. Particularly though, the Atlantis thing. You know, I've done a couple, several good episodes about the allegory that the Atlantis story might be telling and like the non historicity of anything about it possibly checking out, you know, that's a side subject. But what Donnelly did when he wrote his book Atlantis in the Antediluvian World, while he needed an explanation for what happened to this ancient civilization, so, so he came up with must have been a comet, a comet, meteor hit the earth and wiped him out. And so to prove that he needed to find an example that he could point to so that people could think that that was actually possible. And what did he reach for? The Great Chicago Fire. He says that the Great Chicago Fire was caused by A comet that had just come back around. And I want to find. What's the name of the comment? Let me pull up in my notes real quick. Yeah, so he, he published Atlantis in the Antediluvian world, saying that Atlantis was a literal civilization that had been destroyed and every known culture descended from it. So this is like a proto Tartaria idea, right? This is like the first time this became a pop culture thing. Then he wrote Ragnarok, the Age of Fire and Gravel. He said the comet is what did this. So he decided to claimed that the Chicago and Peshtigo, Wisconsin fires from only 12 years earlier when he wrote the book were caused by Bela's Comet. That's the name of the comet. So Bela's Comet, he said fragments of it had like broken off and hit the earth and that's what caused the fires. You know, the, the main issue that I found with that was the fact that Bela's Comet doesn't come to the come around until late November and this fire happened in early October. Right. We actually have the Andromedids meteor shower that astronomers say is related to that comet. Whether or not that's accurate, I don't know. But the other, the sort of fascinating thing to me about this is you have an ancient civilization destroyed by a cataclysm alternative history theorist, the first one of his kind in the modern age, and he reaches for the Great Chicago Fire and gives an alternative explanation for how it happened, claiming that it's suppressed by the authorities and that that fire is how he is like his proof of his ancient civilization destroyed by cataclysm theory. Jump to. Today you have Tartaria theory, ancient civilization destroyed by cataclysm. The Great Chicago Fire proves that my theory, but for an entirely different, you know, story and reason. This is a weird thing that is entered human like the human collective, and it just keeps sort of evolving. I would say 99.9% of Tartaria believers or content creators don't have a clue who Ignatius Donnelly is or how his work set them up to be successful in their. Their subgenre. The weird thing about Bela's comment, though I will say is it was discovered in the 1800s. In 1846, it was seen to. This is something I figured out by the way. I discovered this when I was looking into it in 1846. They saw that it had broken in two and the pieces drifted apart further and further each year that it came around until they were, you know, just fragments essentially. But I thought if a comet is a Traditionally an omen of some kind of destructive change or whatever in the world. Like a bad omen. A comet splitting in two maybe would be a portent of division, destructive division. And the 10 years after the 10 year time period after B list comet was seen to split in half, you have in this all in the same 10 year period. The Mexican American War, a Swiss religious civil war between Protestants and Catholics, revolutions in France, Germany, Italy, Austrian Empire, Hungary, civil wars. Dominican Republic had a war of independence, the Taping Rebellion in China, the Crimean War. And then after that 10 year period, the very next thing, the American Civil War. So I was like, man, maybe this comment was trying to warn humanity. Hey, you're about to get into some like serious civil war shit. But that's just a side like mystical read that I, I don't think anybody else has claimed, but it is possible. It's interesting real quickly. Yerasimos 01:20:33.530 - 01:20:57.420 Yeah, and I know we can probably get into this in a future episode on something, but like when you bring up someone like Donnelly and I think this is the case with a lot of people, like do we throw up the baby with the bathwater? So it's like, are there, I'm assuming you explored Atlantis in that subject at all? Is there anything that potentially could be true regarding that, regarding his research around that? Just share a quick thoughts and then we can move on. Chance 01:20:58.380 - 01:22:41.380 So I looked at Donnelly in this recent pass, more of a top down. Like what was the ramifications of his work? Like before he wrote Atlantis in the antediluvian world, nobody really cared about an idea of Atlantis being real or true. And then after it was published, you have people like Helena Blavatsky writing about it as part. Basically like the Donnelly theory is a part of the dogma of her form of occultism. Rudolph Steiner put it into Anthroposophy, right? Like it started to become. It really started to spread in alternative theory circles, alternative subcultures. I don't think Atlantis as written about by Plato has anything to do with reality. I think that it's an allegory for. Because when you read the Timaeus before, right before the story of Atlantis is told by Timaeus, he gives an entire cosmogony of how the universe begins and following that, he then tells the story of Atlantis. It's really to me clear that it's an allegory for something that's a big part of that time. Mystery school tradition, dogma or doctrine, which is the cycle of destruction and regeneration of the world that they believed was, you know, it was a big part of their whole religious shtick, their initiatory secret. So they wouldn't write out, like, Plato wouldn't just come out and reveal the dogma of destruction or regeneration of the world openly. He would couch it in an allegory. The initiated would know what they're reading when they read it. Yerasimos 01:22:41.700 - 01:22:42.060 Right? Chance 01:22:42.060 - 01:23:09.300 Because, like, just logistically, there's a. There's a guy named Jack Kelly who did a really awesome documentary called the Atlantis Puzzle where he did like, a really grounded research of how. What logistically would have to be the case for the Atlantis story to be literally true. And there's some things in it that he found were. Were fascinating, like the. The work of George Sarantides, a Platonic researcher from Greece. Yerasimos 01:23:09.540 - 01:23:10.100 Greek. Joel 01:23:11.940 - 01:23:13.700 You can't mention any. Greg's on this show, bro. Chance 01:23:14.580 - 01:26:23.450 He's a good. He's a good researcher. You know, he re. He re translated with the help of a linguist, the entire Timaeus and Critias that Plato wrote about where the. You know, Plato talks about Atlantis. And he found some things like the fact that pelagos may be a mistranslated word like moderns tend when this is a weird thing that happened to some at the time when that documentary came out, when I would look up into lexicons about the word pelagos, like just quick Google searches in Greek, it would usually say that it's referring to, like, enclosed large body of water, like a sea, essentially like the Mediterranean or something. And then as I've looked into it later, looked up that word, it just keeps getting defined as like the whole ocean. So I don't know what's going on with that. But Santitis claimed that where Plato wrote the Atlantic Pelagos, he would have said Atlantic Okeanos if he meant the Atlantic Ocean. And so when Donnelly comes around 2,000 years later and says Atlantis is sunk under the waves in the Atlantic Ocean, but the original source material, the only source material from antiquity that talks about Atlantis says Atlantic Pelagos, not Okeanos. We have a problem right there that we're not even looking in the right place. And so this guy Serenitis found tracing the. An alternate way of interpreting the geography of Atlantis and how to get there that Plato describes that it might have been like, Mauritania, North Africa type of location. And what Jack Kelly found in his documentary is that in the time period 9,000 years before Plato that it's very possible that that area was. Is in one of the cyclical green Sahara periods where it's like more of a jungle and a wetland than a desert in that time period. But there's still no, like, archaeological evidence to suggest there was any kind of great civilization there. There might have been large populations there 9,000 years before. But the whole read of Atlantis as literal is much less, in my opinion, solid than reading it esoterically. Because the entirety of all the other work that the philosophers wrote in that era and in the entirety of the western canon up until modern times is 100% esoteric. Like, you have to read between the lines. There's double meanings. They don't come out and tell you what the actual thing that they're trying like, that they're communicating is like, that's just the nature of philosophy in writing. Like he has, he puts Plato, puts it in Socrates's mouth that writing is an inferior form of communication and people can take your meaning the wrong way. So it's like important to have your meaning concealed in it. So someone has to figure it out for themselves. Otherwise people will twist your words if you try to be too literal. It's hard for people to understand that in our modern age of direct and efficient communication. Joel 01:26:24.250 - 01:26:25.050 But a lot of parts of the. Chance 01:26:25.050 - 01:26:27.850 World are still pretty early. Indirect communication is the thing. Yerasimos 01:26:28.250 - 01:26:29.209 What'd you say, Joel? Joel 01:26:29.209 - 01:26:32.810 I said Plato prophesied to the problem with Twitter pretty early in the game. Chance 01:26:34.090 - 01:27:09.030 Well, if you want to look at what Atlantis is really a prophecy about, I mean, there is something to that you have. This is part of what I think is the most important reading of the Atlantis myth. Like why, why would Plato write it is the story is. I mean, and keep in mind all of the like New Agey conspiracy stuff about Atlantis is all post Donnelly invention of people that make stuff up and trust me, bro, about it. Or like psychic mediums like Edgar Cayce seeing it. And so it must be true because it's Edgar Casey. Right. You need to make features that say,. Yerasimos 01:27:09.030 - 01:27:10.910 Trust me, bro, this is what I want to say. Joel 01:27:10.910 - 01:27:25.390 Like, and I know you're going to answer this right now anyway, but do you think generally we place too much emphasis and reverence on these old style esoteric researchers where it's like everything they said must be true, whether it's Steiner or Blavatsky or Casey or whoever, it may be like people. Chance 01:27:25.390 - 01:27:26.350 Yes, because they could be. Yerasimos 01:27:26.350 - 01:27:33.510 They're human. They could be just as fault at fault of misinterpretation and you know, psychological bias as anyone. Chance 01:27:34.750 - 01:28:10.640 Yes, yes, I, I have nothing against mystic experiences, but they are personal and subjective. Right. Like I've had an experience of communing with spirit guides in my life. Do I report back what those things tell me as if they are true and apply to everybody? No, I don't. I don't report those back as if it really happened. I don't know what those experiences are. And anyone who's honest would have to say the same thing. You don't know what that experience is like. One of the times I sought out to meet a spirit guide, it was Gandalf from the Lord of the Rings. Joel 01:28:11.360 - 01:28:11.680 Right? Chance 01:28:11.680 - 01:29:06.130 Does that mean it was literally Gandalf? Was it an egregore? Was it my own mind creating a construct of a form that I would trust and have reverence for? I can't answer those questions and I won't pretend like I can. So when we have a guy like Steiner or you have a Casey that is bringing you all this information from channeling or whatever the case may be, there is nothing veridical about that. It could be that sometimes it gets stuff right and is true. I don't disagree that there's the possibility of having innate knowing of information and getting it right. But how do you know whether or not you got it right? Is if there's confirmation in the world, right? And a lot of this stuff that gets taken as gospel, the no confirmation of it in the world. There's. There's no like nobody is all right or all wrong. Nobody is all good or all bad. That's the entire spectrum of yin and yang exists in all people, in all places at all times. Joel 01:29:06.370 - 01:29:21.910 The, the human need for infallibility and for heroes with like perfect armor and who have never gotten anything wrong is just like at the core. It's so at the core of all of this, the savior worship part of it, where it's like someone has to know all the answers. Chance 01:29:22.790 - 01:33:21.950 Well, think about. Let me, let me bring it back to the Atlantis story and what the allegory, I think the most applicable one to us today that is totally lost in the sauce. So what Plato actually wrote about was a two kinds of society that are polarized against each other. Atlantis is described as descended from Poseidon. And they're basically like, you know, mortals who have a divine ancestry and that they were a society of traditional traditionalism. Upholding the same rituals and behaviors as their ancestors is what made them strong. And then the opposition to Atlantis in the myth is the prototypical like the ancient 9000 years ago city of Athens. So it's like we'll call them the Proto Athenians and it's described in Timaeus that the proto Athenians are a lot like what you were telling us about yesterday of the perfect republic or perfect society. I don't remember the exact words, but you can infer if you're familiar with Plato's other work, that the republic and the, the, the, the story of the Republic, Socrates description of the perfect like rational society. It would be what these prono Athenians are, are like. And what's that? The perfect rational society is like pure progress. It's progressivism. It's we do everything scientifically, we don't adhere to any traditions just for the sake of our ancestors. We try to always do the most rational and best thing. So you have a society that's ruled by tradition, Atlantis and you have the society that's ruled by reason or progress, which is Atlantis. And when you are, is the proto Athenians, when you map these on to society today, you're literally looking at conservative and liberal is the two things you're looking at. The irony is like conservatism in our current day, like Republicans, they're, they're progressives of a lesser degree. There's nothing traditional about them. What we really have is progressive versus progressive, right? And one side pretends to be traditional, but what happens in the story is when the society of progress, you know, you have the two, the two myths is essentially like the foundational myth of a culture is our ancestors were worse than us, they're stupider than us, they were monkeys, there are apes and we ascended from our lesser ancestors. That's progress. Or we descended from divine ancestors or better ancestors. That's tradition, right? Those are the two myths that are the foundational belief to a social philosophy. Whether or not people actually know that they believe one of those two things, almost everybody's going to fall into one of those two beliefs. And it's very polarized. The reality is some of your ancestors were dumber than you and some were smarter than you. And most, it's like a mix are smarter in some ways and dumber in other ways, like there's no right. But for some reason humans polarized to those two ways of looking at it. And what happens is the traditional society of Atlantis and the progressive proto Athenians, when they clash, cataclysm occurs and both societies are completely destroyed, wiped out, swallowed up by the earth and the waves gone. So what is that story really telling you? Is it telling you a literal flood sunk a continent? Or is it telling you that when society polarizes into such extremes like this and those extremes are then in conflict, it destroys Society. That's what it's telling you. Like what's a more reasonable read of the myth? You know, the literal or hey, this is a universal truth that is applicable to our time now and seems to have been the case all throughout human existence. Joel 01:33:22.370 - 01:33:29.690 The same, it's the same thing when you look at the Bible through an astro theological lens and all of a sudden so much makes sense, so much starts to make sense, you know, hey,. Yerasimos 01:33:29.690 - 01:33:37.410 Chance, I know we've talked about little elements of this, but I'm going to ask you this straight up question and I want your response. Why are people so. Chance 01:33:41.090 - 01:33:42.370 Sure you've asked me this before? Yerasimos 01:33:42.930 - 01:34:21.750 No, but I just mean like we're highlighting some of the elements psychologically and stuff. But I'm just like, we're. It's 2026, it's September 1st, we're recording this. And of course a little tongue in cheek using the word but like, you know, slow, like just unable to grasp nuance, discernment. Like, like what is your, what is your explanation, you know, physiologically, socially, culturally, spiritually of like why it seems that we're in this state where there is a high level of incompetence and yeah, infancy on different levels. Again, I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush. Chance 01:34:23.510 - 01:34:26.630 For different, different retards have different problems. Yerasimos 01:34:26.870 - 01:34:27.430 Yes. Chance 01:34:27.910 - 01:34:59.870 I think the biggest one to paint the widest brush is health. Because in my experience, and I've done, you know, my personal experience of my own life and then working with many, many clients that I have worked with, intelligence is clearly a function of health. It is not an innate thing that you're born with, hereditary whatever. It's completely a coherence of body and energy that creates intelligence. It's a. Intelligence is your natural state. Joel 01:35:00.270 - 01:35:00.670 Right. Chance 01:35:01.070 - 01:36:13.230 And it's a consciousness issue. Whenever you're at a, like a stuckness in your health and your body and your energy field, it's reductive to your level of awareness. So if you have a. It like it's a metaphor of blinders, right? You can't see a wide range. It gets narrower and narrower the more your health is diminished. And I think that's probably the main thing that's causing retardation in the world. But then the other thing that causes retardation is religious zealotry. Those are the, probably the two main factors. And the Tartaria thing functions a lot like a religion. Honestly, the way people have got upset at me for going after, you know, and I, like I said, I never even set out to try to Debunk it. I set out to find out what the truth was. And once I had done several investigations on different content creators and found them lying through their teeth left, right and center in their whole video. At that point, I became adversarial to the whole thing. Like, you know, because I kept begging people, show me the good research. Show me the good research. Show me the evidence. Show me what's. Joel 01:36:13.470 - 01:36:13.990 What's. Chance 01:36:13.990 - 01:36:23.950 Why you think this. Show me the thing. And whatever they sent me, I'd look at it and be like, AI slop, fake, lie, deceiving, you know, and there was no good research. Yerasimos 01:36:24.510 - 01:36:38.150 Hey, Chance, I. I'm sure you've. You have your people that are attacking you, but, like, with the research that you've done, people that maybe are a little bit more grounded can take in new information and change their opinion. Have you gotten some really good feedback? Chance 01:36:38.470 - 01:36:38.870 Oh, yeah. Joel 01:36:38.870 - 01:36:39.030 Yeah. Chance 01:36:39.030 - 01:38:52.170 And I'm glad you asked that. The thing is like. Like to be a little vulnerable for a minute. The whole project has been a bit discouraging at times because the popularity of this conspiracy theory and how it is infiltrated and wormed its way in to all these different truther circles and outlets. It's like, how do I. How could I really make a difference in the spread of this thing? Slowing it down or stopping it? You know, I have. I have feelings like that, and it bums me out. And I like. I'm like, what is this? Pointless? And it's caused me a bit of stress. But there are also a lot of people in my audience that have given me thanks and gratitude for the research I've done. Like, they've said I changed their mind. Or they weren't. They. They thought there was something fishy about it, or they were just happy to get to the bottom of things one way or the other. Like, you know, showing that I show my work. Whenever you watch one of my videos about this, I'm showing you. And especially if you're a member of my premium membership, you get all my notes. Like some of these episodes, the notes package is 90 pages in a word document, you know, with a hundred cited sources in a bibliography. It's. It gets huge, right? So I show my. I do the thing that these channels don't do, which is show my work. And I guess what makes it discouraging is there are so many. There's so many examples of architecture from the 18 and 1700s that get pointed at as evidence of Tartaria Old World reset theory that it's like, how do I eat an Elephant here, you know, how do I. So I've been trying to tackle it more as parts of the theory. Like if I can disprove big load bearing pillars of the theory, like the Great Fire of Chicago, the Chicago World's Fair, the insane asylums, you know, I, I don't necessarily need to prove every building that was ever built was built yet the way that we're told it was built. Joel 01:38:52.410 - 01:38:52.730 Right. Chance 01:38:52.730 - 01:38:54.090 That's kind of been my strategy. Joel 01:38:54.330 - 01:39:10.010 We'll wrap this up shortly. I've just got one more question. And this isn't like a flat Earth debate or anything like that, but Tartaria became very tied in to flat Earth theory from what I observed. And is that also maybe part of the reason why, you know, people are holding onto it so tightly for some reason? Chance 01:39:11.870 - 01:41:00.840 Well, exactly, because they have been told that Tartaria is real by people that have earned their trust for other reasons, whether it's because of the cosmology question or because of the virology question. Like that is exactly the issue. There are people who have credibility for other reasons that have promulgated this theory that is not credible. And because they had credibility and earned their credibility in some other realm, then people are willing to take their word that this must be true too, that they're telling. And you know, I think in those cases where somebody's not a dedicated Tartaria researcher or channel, they just drank the Kool Aid because they're generally a conspiracy truth or type and other, you know, it's this weird echo chamber of trust based authority that has allowed this thing to take hold and become so rooted that, you know, like I said, it's kind of discouraging to imagine it's. Why it's discouraging is because of how big and entrenched it is. What's really helpful is to have people like yourself that are willing to give me a platform to talk about it aside from my own platform. Because, you know, I've reached out to other people. I'll say, I won't say who about like, hey, I found out that this isn't real and I'd like to share it with your audience. You know, because they've done con, they've interviewed the wow, World theory people and all of that, and they won't have me. Right. And I don't know why that is. Like, weren't you just, you're, you're not even a content creator in the genre, you're just a host who has hosted people who are pro this theory. So why won't you have the. Someone on that has evidence to the contrary. Like, what are you. What are you afraid of? There's this weird attachment to it. Yerasimos 01:41:01.560 - 01:41:06.200 Yeah, bro. I mean, that's why we call our podcast Here for the Truth. You know, we, We. Chance 01:41:06.280 - 01:41:06.800 We don't. Yerasimos 01:41:06.800 - 01:41:39.780 And I say this often, I don't. We don't say we have every episode we have, and what our guest shares is the truth. And at the same time, we want to have these types of conversations. And like, I mentioned the beginning. This isn't something that I've. I've personally gone down again. I can only speak for myself subjectively, intuitively. I wasn't really drawn to. It didn't excite me. I, I was like, really? I don't know. It's not. Doesn't seem like that, that. That truthful to me. But then you come on and you explain things like, I like things in a simple way. You're doing a lot of the research, you know, that I, I haven't done, and I'm so grateful to you for that and appreciative of that. Joel 01:41:39.780 - 01:41:40.260 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:41:40.260 - 01:42:21.430 And it goes back to my statement before, around, you know, sometimes it's just like a. A simple answer that provides, you know, conclusion as opposed to having to invent some outrageous claim to support something. And then like, even just this idea, there's this like, archetype now of like the truth or conspiracy person that's just. It's almost so obvious. And even the meme of everything is fake and gay. Like, people just throw that around and it becomes like their rallying cry for the things that they're, you know, coming across or presenting in the world. And, and it's just, you know, I love the, I love the way you go about it. I appreciate, you know, your mind and, and grateful that we were able to have you on, I think. Chance 01:42:21.430 - 01:42:23.150 Thanks, man. I want to say, too. Joel 01:42:23.230 - 01:42:25.070 Yeah, sorry, real quick. Chance 01:42:25.070 - 01:42:54.780 Just like the research into this subject matter has a lot of gyms in it that are valuable or interesting for their own sake. Even if, like, you're not. You don't even believe in Tartaria or, you know, you don't. You don't care about debunking it. Learning about the 19th century, the 1800s, is fascinating just to see what people could do back then with lesser technology. You know, it. It's, I think, a worldview healing to expand your idea of what's possible. Yerasimos 01:42:55.340 - 01:43:39.070 Well, and also too real quickly. Like, you know, obviously different periods have their strengths and challenges, but like, we live in this modern world of so Much grasping for our attention and distractions and movies and Internet and all that. Like, back then it was different what you had, what you focused your time on. And so it doesn't surprise me the level of, of sophistication of people like you mentioned earlier having these skills and their crafts, because it's like, this is my thing. This is what I put all my time into. And so I felt like it was a different time back then. I'm not saying one's better or worse, but it's just different. And so I think people like in today's world are like, how could someone do that? I think I could barely even just do two things in a single day. Joel 01:43:39.750 - 01:44:24.920 Yeah. Back to the point we were making before. I think to be a genuine truth seeker, you cannot hold any sacred cows. You cannot have anything that has such a grasp on you where it becomes connected to identity and where if it becomes challenged, you respond in irrational ways that honestly, like pull you down. And I think that's what we do well here is that we don't really have sacred chaos in that sense. And I just want to plant that seed for everyone listening. Like, what, what is this? What's a sacred cow that you still could potentially be holding where if you got into an argument or a discussion at the dinner table with family, with friends, wherever, whoever it's going to be, where like you morph into like a character. Yerasimos 01:44:25.160 - 01:44:28.600 It's like life or life or death. Life or death responses. Chance 01:44:29.640 - 01:45:02.510 Yeah, identity is the trap, for sure. Identification with a belief or an idea that you can't separate from your sense of self. Right. When I do biofield tunings for people, the majority of the things that we're removing in a way that helps them be healthier is false beliefs about who they are or about what the world is. That's what it really comes down to is truth is the apophatic method. Because truth is reality. Capital R is everything that is. It's an infinite thing. Yerasimos 01:45:02.990 - 01:45:03.310 Right. Chance 01:45:03.310 - 01:46:28.850 And the same could be said about God or the divine. So there's no way to wrap your what the mainstream with their grand unifying theme of or theory of physics and conspiracy culture with their grand unifying Tartaria reset theory. They're all, they're both trying to do the same thing, which is wrap their arms around the infinite, the mystery, the unknown that scares them and contain it in a bubble called an explanation. And there is no way to do that in reality. So it's always going to be challenged. Whatever that explanation is, is always going to run into things to that break the mechanics that you've tried to set up in your explanation. So exactly like you said, whenever you try to identify with anything that is besides just the like the infinite potential and possibility of your innermost capital S self, eventually that's going to lead you into a bad place, you know, like it might get you and we all do it. And it's like a vehicle that might get you a ways. Like I am this, I am that. But at the end of the day, the real path to truth and to self is the apophatic not this, not that, not this, not that. And just keep removing things that are not, you know, in alignment with the potential that you can do anything that can be done in this realm, you know. Joel 01:46:29.090 - 01:46:39.650 Yep. Well said, man. Dude, definitely shared a lot. I'm sure you've generated a lot of intrigue and interest amongst their audience. If they want to go further, where would you like to point them? Chance 01:46:40.770 - 01:47:44.380 So I've got a website, interversepodcast.com and my show is video heavy. I mean, especially these Tartaria episodes. But most things that I do lately have a visual component. I make a lot of slideshows and stuff. So my YouTube is a good place for that. If you go to my YouTube, there's a playlist that has the Tartaria investigations, the tests, the theory. And I'm just collecting everything I do about that if you're interested in that. But I have all kinds of other content. I've been doing this for like 10 years. So you got consciousness and reality investigations, mythology, symbolism, terrain, health, biology, biofield tuning, sound, healing stuff, you know, lots of stuff to get into. And on my itunes, I'm kind of excited about the itunes Apple podcast app. I just got video delivery hosting there so people can see the video of the show without having to go to YouTube if that's something that interests them. And then other than that, you can find out everything else about like booking a session with me on my website, interversepodcast.com Perfect, bro. Joel 01:47:44.380 - 01:47:55.140 We'll make sure we got all those links for everyone to access them. And lastly, man, any like closing statements or closing words to impart with those listening before we wrap this one up? Chance 01:47:56.660 - 01:48:07.500 Just gratitude for hanging with us and gratitude to you boys. I think we got everything that needed to be said. I mean, you can't. If somebody. I guess what I do have one thing. Joel 01:48:07.500 - 01:48:07.860 Yeah. Chance 01:48:07.860 - 01:49:55.200 Okay. So if you're somebody that made it this far in the episode and you are a Tartaria believer and maybe you felt you know, attacked by the subject matter of how we've presented things or like, invalidated. I want to be clear. The reasons and the feelings that are evoked by what you believe and what you've investigated, they're like, that's all legitimate and real. There's a legitimate grief, there's legitimate anger about what the world was like 150 years ago versus what the world is like now. Okay. The, the thing that I would invite you to open your mind to is maybe you've misdirected those feelings and directed them towards a, a container that has holes in it and there's nowhere for that energy to be properly wielded towards the solution to the problem. Right. And if, you know, if that resonates with you, I'm just trying to tell you, like, I'm not invalidating that you, that these feelings you have exist, but you need to maybe reconsider what the, what the conclusion you've come to has been. And if you don't want to do that, that's fine, but I just invite you to check out what I've done on the subject and I, you know, challenge you to make it to the end of one of my videos on the topic. And if you see a few of them, I don't think you're going to be able to hold the same position that you've held. And, you know, maybe you will like the worldview that you get out of it better. That's ultimately what I'm about is just I want to help people heal their worldview however possible, and I want to heal my own worldview, which is why I changed my mind about this once I found evidence to the contrary. Looked for it. Yerasimos 01:49:55.350 - 01:50:00.070 It's also why your, your incarnation cross in human design is the cross of healing, I believe as well. Chance 01:50:00.150 - 01:50:01.030 Yeah, that's true. Joel 01:50:02.390 - 01:50:08.790 Beautiful man. Thank you so much once again. Good to see you again. Everyone else, thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.