Joel & Yerasimos The Truth About Self-Esteem

[Speaker 3] (0:00 - 0:07) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth Podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 2] (0:11 - 1:04) What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Here for the Truth Podcast. My name is Joel Rafiti, got my co-host Yerasimos with me as always. Today, it's just the two of us and we're going to be talking about the power of self-esteem. This is, in our view, a concept and a reality that is very much so viewed with less importance than we believe it deserves. In our view, self-esteem is the root of so much that we do and decide in our lives. We're going to be getting into a lot of the common misconceptions around self-esteem and also really hitting you hard with why self-esteem is so necessary, is so important, and hopefully uncovering some deeper truths around self-esteem. I'm sorry, go. [Speaker 1] (1:04 - 1:17) Oh, I was just going to jump in and say, yeah, I mean, you may have heard us say this before, but we definitely think it's one of the most important psychological principles and yeah, it's ignored. We're looking forward to exploring this in more detail and more nuance. [Speaker 2] (1:17 - 2:41) Yeah, for sure. Round 10 of Rise Above the Herd, which is now a 10-week program, the doors are officially open. A third of the spots have already gone. There's 10 spots remaining at this time. You can head to riseabovetheherd.co to learn more about that and to secure one of the spots. Understanding the importance of self-esteem and developing authentic self-esteem is definitely a key component built into that program as well, as well as many other facets, which we believe leads to holistic psychological and spiritual growth and development. You can read all our testimonials there. Right before we dive into the discussion about self-esteem, I just got back from spending a couple of weeks in California, hanging out with Erasmus and Sophie, had Erasmus's birthday party. And then we did a nine-hour road trip north to Music and Sky created by a friend, Mike Winner, and his partners, Matt and Owen, had an amazing time at this four-day family festival. Music, amazing speakers, got to meet for the first time many of the previous podcast guests you're Erasmus has met before, but Eileen McKusick, Alec Zek, Mike, Dr. Berlando, Dr. Edith, to name a few. It was awesome. [Speaker 1] (2:43 - 3:58) I don't think I have to say anything else. You gave a perfect rundown. Yeah, it was so much fun. I think everyone knows how I feel about that event and to have Joel and his family, first of all, come up and spend several days with us at our home in Topanga and hang out and celebrate my 44th, which for me, a birthday party is just an excuse to bring people together to hang out. So, I really enjoyed that piece of it. And then this time, Music and Sky was further away for us. It's been in SoCal the last few events, but this was in Mendocino, California at this cramping ground. And it was just so much fun. Every event is so different. But again, the opportunity to meet in person and to connect and the community there is so loving and so fun and everyone just really honors each other's individuality, which is really, really cool. And Joel performed his new album, which was sick. I cannot wait for it to come out. Yeah, it was really awesome to see him on stage and I've been enjoying listening to the album. I'm special. So, I've been able to listen to some of it, but it comes out. I don't know. I'll let Joel talk about that if he wants. Yeah, thanks bro. [Speaker 2] (3:58 - 4:44) I appreciate it, man. That was my first full set in 10 years. By full set, I mean, performing more than two or three songs at a time. I did a couple of performances during the height of the scandemic in the Sydney Freedom Rallies. But yeah, the album is called Scorpio and it'll be out on the first day of Scorpio, October 23. So, very, very excited to put that out and to be received by all your ears. And I was really committed to making a creative project with the right message conveyed through my love of hip hop with songs which just really slap and are dope to listen to. And as a selfish creative project, I personally feel like I've achieved that result. But I'll let you guys discern once it comes out. [Speaker 1] (4:45 - 5:41) Yeah. I think one of my favorite parts too of your performance is that so many people know you via the lens of the podcast and even just what we do together and our business. And so, when you were performing, it was so cool for some people I'm friends with or people that know the podcast be like, oh my God, he's fucking killing it. I don't think they knew that this was a big piece of your life. And your, I don't wanna say initial, but your initial focus on what you wanted to create and bring into the world. So, it's pretty awesome to see you do it. I'm super proud of you, bro. So much love and support. And yeah, anyways, I'm excited for it to come out and for everyone to listen to it and gain value from it because it's inspiring and catchy. A lot of the lyrics are catchy. The beats are catchy. They stay in your head. So, it's gonna be fun. Thank you, man. [Speaker 2] (5:41 - 5:47) Love you too, bro. I appreciate it. And yeah, man. It's actually, oh, yeah, go for it. No, go. [Speaker 1] (5:47 - 5:50) Well, no, no, you go. I was gonna say this is kind of a perfect segue to self-esteem too. [Speaker 2] (5:51 - 6:12) I was going to say the same thing. I was gonna say the same thing. It definitely takes a healthy dose of self-esteem to pursue your unique curiosity, your explorations, your creative dreams and desires. And not only to envision them, but then to see it through, right? It takes self-esteem to complete a single song, let alone an album. [Speaker 1] (6:13 - 6:23) It takes self-esteem to write a single line. That's right. How many people sit there? I'm gonna create something one day. I'm gonna write a song. I'm gonna learn that instrument. I'm gonna do that thing and then nothing. [Speaker 2] (6:23 - 7:49) Yeah, to finish a verse, to finish a hook. And this was definitely an exercise of self-esteem for me. Each time I'll pull a thread on a verse that I was really inspired by. I really committed myself to finishing the sections at a time and really pulling as much of the juice through as I could and being committed to the project. And then sure, many of us go out there, we build something, we create something in our solitude, then putting it out there to be received, to be praised, to be criticized. And all the things is then another layer to that as well. Okay. But enough on that. To begin this discussion on self-esteem, I want to highlight in the beginning, I guess, some of the common misconceptions about self-esteem. Many people simply equate self-esteem with self-confidence or feeling good. I feel like this is a concept which we tacitly conveyed to you in high school as something that might be of relative importance. But for many of us, we don't really give it the creed that it deserves going forward in our lives. So yeah, I guess, to begin, what are your basic thoughts on that? Is self-esteem simply self-confidence? Is it simply feeling good about oneself? And how would you start that conversation? [Speaker 1] (7:50 - 9:17) Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we have to take a much more nuanced view of this because I agree with you. I think it's just like a throwaway word, I feel like. In our culture and in personal growth work. Like, oh yeah, self-esteem. Yeah, that thing. It feels like just a workplace phrase you throw around, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And it goes beyond just feeling good about yourself, you know. Even the idea that so many people, they almost said there's something called pseudo self-esteem where I think people mistake real self-esteem for something that it's not. And I think this comes a lot from external validation. I think a lot of people who have been overly praised or who get pats on the back all the time or maybe have achieved certain levels of success, they've built their sense of self out of how other people view them and how other people feel about them and the external validation they get. And unfortunately, it's not a solid foundation. And so, I think it's one of the things that people mistake, individuals mistake. Like, I have self-esteem. I'm doing so great in the world and people think so highly of me. But how do you really feel about you? What is the reputation you have with you? How do you navigate challenges in life? So, there's just a lot more nuance to it. I don't know if you want to pull on that thread at all. Yeah, for sure. [Speaker 2] (9:17 - 12:37) Well, I think a good way to bring this around is... So, one of our, I guess, favorite authors and researchers on this topic of self-esteem is Nathaniel Brandon, who was an intellectual heir to Ayn Rand. And I love his basic definition. So, Nathaniel Brandon, he says, self-esteem is the disposition to experience oneself as being competent, to cope with the basic challenges of life, of being worthy of happiness. It is confidence in the efficacy of our mind, in our ability to think. By extension, it is confidence in our ability to learn, make appropriate choices and decisions and respond effectively to change. It is also the experience that success, achievement, fulfillment, happiness are right and natural for us. The survival value of such confidence is obvious. So is the danger when it is missing. And so, when I hear this, obviously, it goes much deeper than just general confidence or just general feel-good throwaway sentiments about life. Self-esteem to me is the impact... How the impact of the agreements that we've made with ourselves internally impact the external world around us and our perception of the external world around us. And so, this is very much so an esoteric concept. Esoteric in the traditional sense of meaning something that impacts one inwardly. And this is literally the driver of every single decision that you make in your life. So where you are right now, how you're currently spending your day, the car that you're currently driving, the relationship that you currently exist in, the career that you've chosen, how you go home and relate to your kids, how you relate to money, how you relate to your husband or to your wife and to your peers and to your colleagues, what choice you're going to make for lunch, dinner, and breakfast. What choice you're going to make in terms of what you consume via the TV or what book that you're reading. All of this is determined by this unconscious process of self-esteem or by the level of self-esteem that's currently existence within oneself. And so, it cannot be understated the importance of this concept. When we talk about ideas such as destiny, what is destiny determined by? Destiny is the compound accumulation of the thousands of choices that you make every single day of your life, all of which is driven by your level of self-esteem. And so, it's so much more than just feeling good or whatever it is that people want to place on it. We're all seeking to fit to reality, to be appropriate for life, to see oneself as being competent to cope with the basic challenges of life, as Brandon has put it here. And we look all around us for this. We dive deep into so many even like new age occult resources to try to find this, whether it's manifestation, whether it's reality creation, whether it's whatever it might be. And I think so often we overlook the foundation of all of that, which is this concept of self-esteem. [Speaker 1] (12:40 - 13:41) Yeah. Even if you're talking about manifestation, which is a word that gets thrown out so often in different spiritual circles, one of Brandon's pillars is living consciously. So, if you want to really manifest, you have to have a high level of self-awareness. You need to be able to align your intentions with your actions, which is a huge piece. You're not just sitting around hoping or trying to positively affirm yourself to what you want to achieve in life when underneath you haven't done foundational work or you don't have a deeper level of self-awareness. And self-awareness, we're talking about the light and the dark. We're talking about really understanding the many facets of who you are as a person. You have to be willing to take personal responsibility of your goals, of who you are, of how you behave, and understanding that you are agent of change in your life. And that's what's going to allow things to really come forth and to manifest in your life. That's right. [Speaker 2] (13:41 - 13:53) And to me, even when we talk about this whole overarching concept of spirituality, we're also speaking about self-esteem. When we speak about spiritual bypassing, really what we're speaking about is bypassing self-esteem. Yeah, that's the truth. [Speaker 1] (13:53 - 15:04) Because a person with high self-esteem isn't fearful of reality, isn't fearful of accepting themselves truly as they are, all the aspects of them. I mean, spiritual bypassing, it's like this focus on just the love and the light, just on the positive, which again is another misconception of self-esteem. Self-esteem isn't about just focusing on everything that's good and positive within yourself. It's being reality-focused. It's okay to feel shitty. It's okay to realize maybe you've been hurt or you've dealt with certain trauma. I mean, that's, again, one of the pillars of self-acceptance. You have to be real with yourself. You have to go, okay, this is the truth about my reality. This is the truth about my history. This is the truth about my relationship to my parents. This is the truth about my relationship to money. This is the truth about the relationship to myself and to how I view myself. Can you be fucking super real and radically honest with yourself and truly face reality? That is a key component of self-esteem, not just pushing all the stuff away that you want to just deny and put earmuffs on, like, la, la, la, la. I don't want to have to deal with that stuff. [Speaker 2] (15:05 - 16:47) Yeah, exactly. Being here for the truth is choosing to be connected and to lean into healthy self-esteem because being here for the truth means being here for reality. It means being here for whether it's dark or light or anything in between, whether it's internal or external, it's being here and willing to receive that in its fullness and having the appropriate capacity for that as well. I think about these ideas of manifestation or reality creation and just sitting there and visualizing and calling these things, etc. But if you don't, on a fundamental internal level, feel worthy for what it is that you're calling in, your efforts, without a doubt, are going to be futile. Self-esteem is a way of life. This is something that we engage in, in every single decision that we make and every single day, choosing to live consciously, choosing to live with greater purpose, greater acceptance, greater responsibility. And when you think about the disconnection or the dissonance between where you currently are and the life that you wish you were living, by choosing to lean into self-esteem and embody this as a daily practice is the thing, in my view, that's going to bridge the gap in a more reality-focused way than anything else. Now, I'm not saying some of these techniques, etc., are futile and don't work. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying without the baseline of healthy self-esteem, it's like painting a donkey with makeup. [Speaker 1] (16:48 - 17:34) Well, yeah. We're looking at whether or not we're using something as a band-aid or if we're getting to the root cause of something. And when we think about the root, self-esteem is at the root of our being. Even when you think about your financial situation, even when you think about your relationships, the type of partnership that you get into and the relationship that unfolds from that place has a lot to do with your level of self-esteem. If you don't have the self-esteem to express yourself, to assert your needs, to be real with your partner, how are you going to have the relationship that you want? How are you going to build trust with one another? [Speaker 2] (17:35 - 17:49) To set appropriate boundaries, to have enough emotional intelligence to facilitate a healthy relationship. When there's disconnect, when there's arguments, when there's heavy things that are being thrown around, this all, again, comes back to that. [Speaker 1] (17:50 - 18:34) Yeah. Triggers are going to happen. We're human beings. We've all been through things. We've experienced trauma. We have our patterning from our youth, from our primary caregivers. So, how do we live more consciously? How do we build greater self-awareness? And when we're in something that's a conflict in partnership, do we take responsibility for our role in it? Or do we just blame the other person for everything? Again, we keep saying reality because a huge piece of self-esteem is being a friend to reality, is leaning into reality, not moving away from reality and living in a much more delusional state and denying certain truths. [Speaker 2] (18:35 - 19:26) Yeah. And self-esteem doesn't mean that you never experience grief, pain, anxiety, frustration, things that, no, all these are intrinsic to reality. However, what it means is that one has greater resiliency in the interface of these things. Nathaniel Brandon implored us to think of self-esteem as the immune system of consciousness. Now, obviously, we've had Germany Medicine podcasts in the past. There's questions about the reality of an immune system. But from a conceptual standpoint, if you have a healthy immune system, you might become ill, but you're less likely to, says Brandon. If you do become ill, you will likely recover faster. Your resilience is greater. Similarly, if you have high self-esteem, you might still know times of emotional suffering, but less often and with a faster recovery, your resilience is greater. [Speaker 1] (19:26 - 19:37) Well, this relates to when we've talked about often, like when we talk about nervous system work and the nervous system regulation on how it's almost as if it's self-esteem for the body. [Speaker 3] (19:37 - 19:37) Yes. [Speaker 1] (19:38 - 20:29) In a sense, is that the more regulated you are, I mean, when you do this kind of work and you work on your body, you work on your health, you're going to build self-esteem. You're able to deal with challenges. You're able to respond appropriately to life, which is another important component of self-esteem. And even from a nervous system standpoint, we want to have access to all these different states within us. Like there's times that we're going to go into more sympathetic. There's times where we might need to shut down a little bit, but do we stay there and do these states take us over? That's the difference as opposed to, okay, I needed to run away from a tiger for 30 seconds. Now, do I stay in that sympathetic state for five days or do I come back down to a more baseline? [Speaker 2] (20:29 - 21:56) Cool. Yeah, exactly. And not only that, but also having self-efficacy is a key component of self-esteem. So by self-efficacy, do you have the capability to learn what it is that you need to learn to move yourself forward or to achieve your goals? So for example, not understanding about the nervous system or not having... It requires self-efficacy by way of self-esteem to go and dive deep into learning theoretically about the nervous system, into learning practically about the nervous system. I can see myself in a relationship where I get triggered and I stay in either freeze or flight for an extended period of time and it doesn't feel good and these patterns keep reoccurring. The psychologically healthy self-esteem individual, in my view, would want to figure out how to solve that. I don't like what is happening in my reality. How do I move forward? So they go. They're curious. They explore resources. They explore ways to help that. They learn about the nervous system. They learn about self-esteem, et cetera, et cetera. And life moves on. And same goes for any goal in life, whether it's creative endeavor, whether it's starting a business, whether it's having an unmedicalized birth, whatever it is that you're looking to do, it requires self-efficacy by way of self-esteem to go and learn what's required. And this is always needed because we're never at the end. [Speaker 1] (21:57 - 24:05) Yeah. And it requires effort and it requires you pushing through certain challenges. I mean, if you're learning something new, if you're coming to certain awarenesses, it can be challenging at first, but the more you push through it, the more you get to the next level, that is inherently a self-esteem building act. So ultimately everything we're talking about here, especially around these subjects is like, are we ultimately self-responsible to realize, hey, listen, oh man, this shit isn't working out. Now, do you just sit there and stay in a victim state? I'm not saying that you can't to a certain degree. I mean, yeah. No, I'm saying like, I'm not sitting here saying that human beings aren't victimized. I mean, we are, but do you stay in that state for years, for decades, or do you realize, hmm, the proof is in the pudding. My life is pretty shitty. My relationships are pretty shitty. My health is pretty shitty. What am I going to do about it? Can I live more consciously? Can I have greater self-awareness? Can I have these aha moments like, oh, the common denominator in my life, in my relationships, in my career, and all these different things that I'm doing is me. If those aren't working, if I just get into the same relationship over and over again, and I find myself blaming my ex-partners over and over again, well, maybe we need to turn the gaze inwards and go, well, what can I do about it? How can I change? A high self-esteem individual has these realizations, has this awareness, and goes, okay, what's the next thing I need to do to improve this level of my life? And inherently, at the core, is to truly feel worthy of happiness, because that's the thing. That's a big piece of it too, being worthy of happiness, being worthy of experiencing a life of fulfillment. And so, if there's a deep, deep unworthiness there, or self-abuse or self-hatred, you can read all the affirmations you want. But it's going to be tricky. [Speaker 2] (24:06 - 25:27) Yeah. It's the question of, do I value my life enough to change? And do I value the experience that I'm having in reality enough to change? And if we value wanting better feeling, wanting greater well-being, wanting greater psychological health, wanting to be financially equipped, abundant, wanting to be able to deal with the nuances of reality and friendships and relationships and growth and evolution, then we learn, we implore changes, we require healthy self-esteem for all these things. And so, I want to take a look at, just so you guys can be really clear on this concept, some symptoms of healthy self-esteem and symptoms of poor self-esteem. So, I'm going to start with the poor self-esteem column. So, take note, try to be open to noticing this within yourself. There might be other people that come to mind as well. So, some symptoms of poor self-esteem include irrationality. So, irrationality to me basically means responding inappropriately to what reality is requiring. Blindness to reality, kind of implicit in the same thing. Rigidity, if you want to speak about that a little bit, you're asking us. [Speaker 1] (25:27 - 26:59) Well, yeah. I mean, again, this is, I think has to do with psychological health. I mean, you know, there are people that are highly, highly rigid in their behavior and their personalities. You know, there isn't a fluidity to be able to maybe even navigate life in a different way or navigate situations differently or navigate different relationships differently. Like, I'm going to treat every single person the same exact way in every single situation. Do you know what I mean? Where it's like, that's not how life is. Like, if you're super rigid, like how are you going to, you know, go after the things that you want in life? How are you going to have healthy relationships? You know, like there's sometimes going to be a time for you that you might need to lay the hammer down, you know, and speak firmly to someone. And then at other times, you might need to handle someone with kid gloves a little bit more. And so, do you have, do you have the, the, can you embrace more of who you are? Like, have you done the work to, I mean, I guess this is where shadow work comes into play too. Like, have you integrated things from your shadow? You know, have you moved towards more wholeness? So you can have this flexibility and this fluidity that's going to allow you to respond appropriately in a greater number of situations. As opposed to like, I'm the same person, I talk the same way, I behave the same way, no matter what. You know, okay, that may serve you in some cases, but it's just not going to provide you the capability, I think, to have success in a variety of areas. Yeah, that's right. [Speaker 2] (26:59 - 27:46) And also, it'll prevent you from exploring the new and familiar because there's going to be fear that arises whenever reality calls for something, which is outside of your agreed bandwidth of what I'm here for and what I'm capable of responding to, which actually is the next signpost of poor self-esteem, which is fear of the new and the unfamiliar. And, you know, this applies to one's nervous system as well, this whole rigidity factor, right? Whether we're getting stuck at one stage of the nervous system for an extended period of time without having that flow and that flexibility to move between states with ease and as reality changes, you know, and as perceived safety changes as well. Inappropriate conformity or rebelliousness. [Speaker 1] (27:48 - 28:12) Yeah, that's a big piece too, because a lot of times people would think like, oh, that person that's just going against the crowd and is a lone wolf, is a high self-esteem individual. And that's not always the case, you know? So, I think it's easier seen in those that conform and just go along to get along, but the same can be true by someone who's overly rebellious, especially if it leads to like, let's say more criminal activity. [Speaker 2] (28:13 - 28:28) And also, sometimes we're inappropriately rebellious because it's driven by a lack of worthiness where we just want attention at all costs. Yeah. We want that pseudo self-esteem affirmed by the external validation of people being like, oh, look how different he is. Look how different she is. [Speaker 1] (28:29 - 28:53) Yeah. Or we don't want to face reality. There may be certain things that we need to own up to, but we're like, nah, fuck that shit, you know? I'm better than that. I don't need to listen to my parents. I don't need to listen to my teacher. I need to listen to my boss, even though from a rational standpoint, they may be sharing something and presenting something that one should take in, one should think about, one should contemplate. Yes. Yes. [Speaker 2] (28:53 - 29:46) When it's come from a place where one hasn't properly asserted their consciousness and let things through the dictates of one's mind, and they just followed the status quo, whether it's towards conformity or it's a rebellion, and it's coming from a place of low self-esteem. And very often, this perceived rebelliousness is actually just pseudo conformity anyway. When you look at the tribe of blue hairs out there, or you look at the flock of young kids being driven by socialist anecdotes without really thinking about what it is like, oh, I'm going to go fucking spray my hair, sweep on this painting or tie myself to the road or whatever it might be like, you're not being rebellious. You're being driven by social conformity under the guise of rebellion. Well said. Defensiveness. [Speaker 1] (29:48 - 29:58) That's something I can have a relationship with too. It can be defensive at times. Anyways, I just wanted to share that piece. [Speaker 2] (29:58 - 30:42) All right, man. Thanks for sharing. Over-compliance, again, fits with conformity. Over-controlling behavior. Because this is a result of us wanting to control reality. And we cannot control reality, right? We have elements of control over ourselves. However, reality is constantly changing. It's constantly shifting. And that requires you to be flexible to that as well. And again, the crux of self-esteem is finding oneself appropriate and competent to reality. And this requires us to be able to flow with that. And lastly, here we have fear of or hostility towards others. [Speaker 3] (30:44 - 30:44) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (30:45 - 31:26) Okay. And also, people with low self-esteem generally don't consider joining Rise Above the Herd. Okay. Healthy self-esteem. Good plug. Healthy self-esteem. So, again, we're looking at the opposite now. So, we're talking about rationality. Using one's mind in relationship with reality appropriately. Realism. Adopting an attitude of wanting facts. Of wanting to seek facts and not shy away from them. Whether it's a low bank account. Whether it's a poor relationship. Whether it's toxic patterns which keep repeating. Whether it's self-sabotaging behaviors. Developing an attitude of realism is very, very important. [Speaker 1] (31:27 - 34:01) I think that's such a huge piece of the puzzle. And what I want to throw in here, too, is for everyone to really be mindful of what they turn to to self-medicate that helps them, I guess, keep kicking the can down the road of something they need to pay attention to. You know what I mean? Because again, it's like, we could be self-sabotaging in certain ways to keep us from, you know, coming face to face with the fact that, you know, our relationship isn't healthy. You know, or beyond that on a general level. But like, what is the feeling and sensation inside that if you came face to face with that may lead you and motivate you to taking action? Okay? Because that's what happens. It's like, you know, we don't want to feel the pain of reality. You know, reality is painful. You know, the reality is life is filled with suffering. Not all the time, but if you were to sit here and say, life is no suffering. The perfect life means you never suffer. Like, it's ridiculous. You're going to feel pain. Yeah. Now, I think part of healthy self-esteem is realizing like, hey, I need to sit with this. You know, I can't just go straight to my phone and scroll for three hours. I can't just go towards the shitty food that's going to self-medicate. I can't just turn on, you know, the go on the internet and flip on some porn or go shopping or whatever. All the millions of ways that people self-medicate and self-suit. Now, I'm not here to shame. We're doing what we can based on what we know and where our nervous system is at. You know, because we're trying our best to, I guess, more self-regulate. It's just not always, we're not utilizing the best things to do that. And so, I think a big piece of self-esteem is going, okay, I have this habitual behavior. Why do I have this habitual behavior? You know, again, we've talked about this before, having the curiosity to go, huh, that's interesting. Every time I come home from work, I have to crack open a bottle of wine and drink a couple of glasses. Oh, every time I come home from work or in order for me to go to sleep, I need to light up a J and get high. Oh, every morning in order just to get out the front door, I have to drink coffee before I even put any food in my stomach. You know, what are these things and these behaviors that you rely on outside yourself to act as a crutch to maybe not feeling discomfort? [Speaker 2] (34:02 - 35:03) Yeah, man. And anytime our actions or behaviors are driven by a need to escape or avoid an external reality, I think that's a reflection of poor self-esteem, in my view. And even with this whole concept of realism, I think about the dictates of collectivism and socialism and us believing or feeling that we don't need to bring value to society or to reality or to exchange and that we deserve things for free and that we're entitled to things. I even think about this within the truth of community when I think about the 2020 era, the whole just Sarah and Sarah, we're going to get a baseline income, people are going to get all this money for free, et cetera, et cetera. Like all that is driven by poor self-esteem, whether it's, you know, whether people believe that it's coming from a place of healthy self-esteem or not. Whenever we believe that we're entitled, deserving, or we should be getting something for free without offering adequate value in exchange, that is an avoidance of reality. [Speaker 1] (35:03 - 35:32) Or that we're expecting someone out there, something out there to save us. Yeah. That is a signpost of low self-esteem as well. So, check yourself. Again, so much of this is internal contemplations and reflection. Like, where are you giving away your power? Where are you giving away responsibility? Where are you hoping someone is just going to come in and tap you on the shoulder and tell you everything's going to be okay and solve all your problems, your financial issues, your relationship issues, et cetera? [Speaker 2] (35:34 - 36:12) Yep. Exactly, man. Okay. Healthy self-esteem. We're talking about intuitiveness. And to me, this is very, very clear because like we've mentioned consistently throughout, like self-esteem is having a friendly relationship with facts and with truth. And without having that core of inner truth and the equilibrium and the psychological hygiene that comes from being truthful with oneself, intuitiveness is very hard to come by. And intuition comes from knowing yourself as a core of truth, from trusting one's own mind, from having a record of being honest with oneself. [Speaker 1] (36:14 - 37:44) And also, I know we talk about this often, it's not just trusting your own mind because our mind can be distorted and confuse us by conditioning. But when you were talking, when you brought up intuitiveness, I was just right away, I go to human design or any one of these other systems that allow you to know yourself more, like you said. There has to be a foundation of a desire to know oneself, to cultivate greater self-knowledge. Because the more you know yourself, you understand yourself like, hey, this is how I make decisions. This is how I best interact in my environment. This is how I'm designed emotionally. The more you understand these things, you're going to make better decisions. You're going to trust your specific intuition. We're not all created the same. There are differences amongst us. And so, I think the more we can understand this differentiation and again, going back to not relying on others, oh, well, they're doing that, so I should do that. But like, no, I am a unique being. I am separate in a sense. And so, how do I go about life? What do I do? How do I make decisions? Maybe I need to take more time to make decisions. Maybe my best friend is able to know things in the moment. So again, it's like really trusting yourself and who you are. Yes, of course, cultivating a healthy mind, trusting your body, building a connection to somatic impulse and what that says to you and how that informs you. All this is really, really important key components. [Speaker 2] (37:44 - 38:21) Yeah. And just being able to give proper credence and attention to that small, still voice within which is trying to hint to you something, which is trying to hint to you the next step, whether it's taking ownership of something you did in the past, or whether it's taking a leap of faith, or whether it's exploring that other job opportunity, or whether it's going down a creative entrepreneurship path, right? It's like so often within the low self-esteem mainstream culture that we live in, everything is just designed to be buried on top of that voice. So we don't pay it the appropriate attention. Yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (38:21 - 39:48) And this is actually an interesting conversation. I want to hear your thoughts on it because for some of our decisions that we make, I could think about my own personal life. Many people would have thought they weren't rational. So we talk about rationality as a key component of self-esteem, which it is, but then we also talk about intuitiveness, which some people would consider antithetical to rationality in some cases. Again, because I think about the choices I've made in my life, and the left turns and the right turns. Many people in my life, many people in my family thought I was crazy. But when you know yourself, when you can feel into what is right for you, not what is right based on the projections placed upon you by family, friends, culture, society, that's a whole nother level of self-ownership and self-esteem. Because on some level, you have to be willing to disappoint people. This goes along with not conforming. Conforming is a piece of low self-esteem, but to go against conformity, you're going to disappoint individuals. You're going to disappoint your mom or dad that wants you to be a business person or a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. And you're like, nah, I'm going to be an artist or I'm going to whatever, travel around the world and continue my education in a non-traditional way. For sure. [Speaker 2] (39:49 - 41:20) I think we have this misconception that rationality means following the status quo. It means doing the safe thing. It means listening to my parents and just going down the well-trodden path. When really, I think that intuitiveness is compiled within this greater concept of reason and rationality. Because when you have walked the path of self-knowledge and wanting to know oneself, then you realize that the most rational thing I can do is to listen to that in a still voice, to listen to my intuitive impulses, because I recognize that there's a price to pay if I don't listen to them. And when I don't listen to those callings, then all of a sudden, I become at odds with myself. There's contradictions which occur within my internal reality. There's a chasm which widens. My inner critic becomes louder. And then the bridge to walk becomes larger, to come back to intuitive equilibrium. And this is a price that I've paid in my past for not listening to my intuition, for not paying proper attention to those messages that are coming from within and ignoring them and numbing them and hiding them down. Then the quote-unquote punishment, or in other words, the recalibration that reality has offered me has probably been much more painful than it needed to be if I had just paid proper attention to my intuition in the beginning, which would have been the rational thing to do. And now I know that. [Speaker 1] (41:21 - 42:53) Yeah. You brought up a word that I think it's misconstrued often. I just want to kind of converse on that reason. I think many people think reason is like, they think of like, oh, a robot. And it's just, I'm just using a calculator and being extremely rational in this sense. But Ayn Rand's definition of reason, this comes from her book, The Objectivist Ethics. She says that reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses. So then we go, man's senses. What are man's senses? You know, like, sure, we have like what we can touch, see, feel, hear, etc. Yet there's a felt sense within the body. Anyone that's, you know, gotten into somatic work understands there's a felt sense, you know? From a human design standpoint, the decision-making faculties in human design are much more of an intuitive somatic sense, you know? Whether it's honoring your gut, whether it's honoring that impulse of like that feels healthy or unhealthy, whether it's getting emotional clarity over time, you know? So again, like when Joel and I talk about reason, you know, we're encompassing all of it. The more you add to your self-knowledge, the more you connect to your intuition, the more you build nervous system regulation and emotional intelligence, that all enhances your reason to ultimately make the best decisions and respond as appropriately as possible depending on the situation that you're facing in life. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (42:53 - 43:07) Nah, well said, man. Very, very, very important point there for sure. It's taking in all the material and then formulating the best possible decision from there. Okay. Creativity as a signpost of healthy self-esteem. [Speaker 1] (43:09 - 43:28) And I mean, a high self-esteem person is going to be much more willing to sit down and write a poem to, like we said earlier with your music, write some music, learn how to even paint. Like, I'm just going to pull out a canvas. I'm going to start painting. Oh, it doesn't really look great, but you know what? I'm going to do it. [Speaker 2] (43:28 - 43:54) Yeah, exactly. And again, I think about maybe this dichotomy of the right and left hemispheres of the brain, which can kind of be linked to this concept of poor and low self-esteem as well. We need both hemispheres of the brain. One is not better than the other, et cetera. But we definitely live in a very left brain and detail specific focused oriented world, which removes us from elements of creativity and wanting to explore our intuitive impulses and those things that come to us. [Speaker 1] (43:56 - 44:45) Yeah. And real quickly, I want to say too, even from creativity, I don't just mean it in terms of like from an artistic standpoint, like I said, if we look at a signpost of low self-esteem, rigidity, it's almost as if creativity is the opposite of rigidity to a certain degree. Whereas like, even if you look at it in terms of your own life, one of my favorite quotes is the most creative act you'll ever undertake is the act of creating yourself. So, think about that. If you're facing a challenge, if you're in an unhealthy relationship, if you are dealing with something in the workplace, or if you're an entrepreneur, having the ability to be creative and resourceful and look at things in a new way, in a different way is going to allow you to be more successful. So, it is a high self-esteem. It's not just oh, I'm drawing a painting or creativity falls as an umbrella with so much falls underneath it. [Speaker 2] (44:45 - 45:44) Yeah. I mean, finding new and alternative ways to solve problems, which haven't been thought about before, seeing multiple angles in and not realizing there's more than just one way through. But again, yeah, with creativity more on the nose when it comes to art, like, thinking one's creations are even worthy of being brought into existence, right? It requires healthy self-esteem for that. And then to be shared and to be put out there and like, do I have any value, right? This is a question of self-esteem and that comes down to one's creations as well. And I like what you said, man, it extends beyond art as well, one's entire life is a creative act. The way that you engage in the workplace is a creative act. The way that you go about building a business, the way that you spend your weekends with your family, the way that you cook a meal is a creative act. [Speaker 1] (45:45 - 46:36) And what I want to highlight on that too, which is also I think something that's misconstrued about self-esteem is this idea that having high self-esteem means that you're perfect, that perfectionism is the goal, that like people with high self-esteem, they have no flaws or failures and that's not true, you know? People that have high self-esteem, you know, again, are friends to reality, you know, they can accept and acknowledge their imperfections, you know, they learn from their mistakes, you know, they're not going to just focus on striving for some unattainable goal. I mean, just think about as an artist, if you're a filmmaker, if you're a musician, like, when is the end in the end? You know, you can just sit there and then it's not ready, it's not ready, it's not ready, it's not ready, and then like years go by. Yeah. Where it's just like, at some point, you have to just trust, put it out into the world and move on to the next thing. [Speaker 2] (46:37 - 46:47) Yeah, which ultimately by through completion, we welcome greater insights, inspiration, and creativity. When we leave the threads open for eons, right? [Speaker 1] (46:47 - 47:30) Then we block ourselves off from that news coming to visit us with the next work of art that wants to be born through Even for real quickly, I want to highlight just from a personal standpoint for us, you know, when we when we met, you know, I think everyone has heard our story, I would think ad nauseum. But like, when we both felt aligned that we wanted to start a podcast, we started, we just started, we got on zoom, and we pressed record, and we started talking. And then things built from that, you know, our logo, our first logo isn't the logo that you see now. Now, if we were to just sit there and go, we're not going to record one episode until all the marketing is done until all the copy is perfect until the logo is perfect. [Speaker 2] (47:31 - 47:44) You know, until we have a production team. And so we I self produced the first 66 episodes, I learned how to use the these these softwares, I learned we learned how to find distribution, we learned how to etc, etc, etc. [Speaker 1] (47:45 - 48:13) Yeah, you highlight a big piece there to like, when you're going into something new, like you have to have the fluidity and the flexibility to learn something new, whatever, whether it's for your business, you know, you know, in my case, like moving to a property from having no outdoor space to having all this outdoor space, and then learning about shit and things breaking and then, you know, like learning a new skill and how to deal with with life or to plant trees, like, yeah, you're gonna face challenges, and you have to push through those challenges, you know, but you have to start at some point. [Speaker 2] (48:14 - 49:23) Yeah, exactly, man. And so I want to talk about the idea of perfectionism a little bit more. So as I was researching, I decided to just throw self esteem into Google. And the very first link from verywellmind.com. It says people with overly high self esteem may overestimate their skills and may feel entitled to succeed, even without the abilities to back up their belief in themselves. They may struggle with relationship issues and block themselves from self improvement because they are so fixated on seeing themselves as perfect. Like that is total bullshit. Yeah, that is not that is not self esteem. That is pseudo self esteem. And that is the antithesis to self esteem. That is avoidance of reality. That is seeing through rose colored glasses. Right? Interesting how that's the first link on Google. Yes, exactly. You cannot have too much self esteem. Just like you cannot have too much health. You cannot have too many skills you cannot have, right? Like healthy self esteem is not something that you need to be scared of, of overly developing. [Speaker 1] (49:25 - 49:30) Yeah. Yeah, that's so fun. I still can't believe that was the first link on Google. [Speaker 2] (49:31 - 49:39) Yeah, I mean, again, but this speaks to the initial conversation about the general overview of self esteem that we said, like, you know, this is what people are being taught out there. [Speaker 1] (49:39 - 50:16) And it's also a person of high self esteem isn't grandiose. A person of high self esteem doesn't boast and tell everyone how amazing they are. They just go about living their life, you know, living consciously, you know, being a person of integrity, you know, being a friend to reality, understanding the depths and nuances of who they are as a person, going after their goals, facing challenges, working through those challenges, having a keen eye to look at the data in your life that's coming at you and going, oh, I need to make a change here. What do I need to do in order to make this change? [Speaker 2] (50:17 - 50:52) Yeah, exactly. And I think that this is where people really need to understand the difference between pride and hubris as well. A healthy self esteem individual is not scared of feeling pride, right? We have pride as one of these seven deadly sins. Ooh, don't feel pride. Pride is simply the emotional reward for achievement, right? It is a natural feeling that arises within oneself through accomplishment, through achievement. There's nothing wrong with that. Hubris, on the other hand, is an overestimation of one's abilities, which is a problem because it is avoidance of reality. [Speaker 1] (50:52 - 51:02) It's like after I came down from 4-0 against Joel back in 1-5-4, I felt a sense of pride. I'm glad. [Speaker 2] (51:02 - 51:10) I'm glad I could play a role in giving that to you, bro. Yeah. That healthy self esteem is not arrogance. [Speaker 1] (51:11 - 51:43) Yeah. And there's a difference there too. Pride, I think, is an internal thing, whereas arrogance is much more of an external projection to others about that. Whereas pride, no one even has to know or feel or know that you're feeling this. It's just something that's like feeling the... How do I say this? The cells of your whole being are just feeling this... I did a thing. [Speaker 2] (51:43 - 52:10) I put something into action, right? But that's motivating. That's something that's self reciprocal, that feeds one's self esteem, that inspires one to continue to do, to continue to exert effort, to continue to be conscious, to continue to create. It's an internal reward mechanism for aligning one's actions with their thoughts and beliefs. It's your body saying, thank you. Your mind's saying, thank you. [Speaker 1] (52:11 - 52:36) This is why I think it's really important to see where you're stagnant in your life and complacent and see what new skills or new experiences you're going to have. Because I think that's going to help build self esteem in an individual when you go, oh, maybe I should learn a new language. Maybe I should take up a new hobby, as opposed to like, oh, I'm just doing the same stuff I did when I was 11 only. Yeah, exactly. [Speaker 2] (52:36 - 53:21) For example, music and sky, I perform my set. I finished the performance. Dr. Melissa said that was fucking incredible. I had no idea. Your wife, Sophie, my whole body is shaking. I can't believe. I didn't know it was like that. I felt pride and I allowed myself to feel it. It's not a downplaying of, oh, yeah, I'm pretty good, but this, that, this, that. No, it's a thank you. I'm glad I was able to put something into creation, action it, perform something, give value in that regard, and receive the value that people received on the other end of that. To me, that's a signpost of, cool, man, you did something. There's something here. You're on the right track. Keep going. [Speaker 1] (53:22 - 53:33) Yeah. It's like a deep gratitude for being you. I don't know. That's how I feel. You're just grateful that you exist and that you're living your life. [Speaker 2] (53:35 - 54:27) I fucking love being me. I love being me. There's no one else I'd rather be. I love the inherent gifts that I have. I love the path that I've walked to cultivate and nurture those gifts. I love that the life that I've created, which is a container for me to constantly give those gifts because that's what the energy in my body wants to do. It wants to keep pouring it out in this way. I don't want to live anyone else's life. I don't want to have anyone else's skills. No. To me, that's not arrogant. That's a signpost of healthy self-esteem. Yeah. I agree, man. Okay. More signposts, independence, flexibility, managing change. We've spoken into those. But now you're asking us, willingness to admit and correct mistakes as a signpost of healthy self-esteem. [Speaker 1] (54:29 - 55:27) Yeah. I think that's one of the signs of narcissism is an inability to accept, which again, I think a narcissist would be somewhat of low self-esteem. Yes. But you have to be, again, back to what we've been saying this whole time, you have to be real. Yeah. Be real with yourself. Be honest with yourself. When I'm a dickhead or insensitive to my wife and we have a little, maybe there's a trigger and a little mini conflict, I kind of go off and I need to reflect. Oh, yeah, I was insensitive. I'm going to go back to my wife and be like, hey, I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings or whatever the case may be. You have to take personal accountability, personal responsibility. You can't just sit there in victim mode, blaming everyone for everything. Yeah. That's the bottom line. Yeah. I don't know what else to say about that. [Speaker 2] (55:28 - 55:38) To restate it, adopting the attitude of being radically honest and truthful with oneself and with reality, this is the baseline of self-esteem. [Speaker 1] (55:39 - 57:22) A lot of these things feed one another. The more rigid you are, the less likely you are to consider another person's experience and another person's point of view. You're going to be so locked into your way of being and your conditioned way of thinking and behaving that you can't consider an opposite. Okay. This is, again, when we talk about integration and wholeness, do we have the capacity to stand between the tension of opposites? Maybe we're behaving in one way, but then we go, oh, there's another part of us that may have a different view and opinion on what just occurred. But if you don't have access to that, if you're repressing it, if these parts of you are disowned, you're going to be blind to the wisdom and the insights and the reflection that are coming from these aspects of you that very often another person is holding because we're opposites attract very often. So, again, this is the beauty of relationship is we come into relationship because people are carrying qualities that, you know, we can integrate. You know, instead of just sit there and over admire or judge, we can go, huh, that's interesting. But again, this is what a high self-esteem person would do. They would go, why am I highly judging this person? Stan... Yeah. Why am I putting this person on this pedestal and giving my power to them? What is that saying about me? You know, what aspects of me have I repressed or have I not developed that I could integrate that could serve me in my relationship, in my career, in my path as it's unfolding in life? You know, I think this is one of the gifts. But again, a low self-esteem person isn't going to have this level of curiosity, isn't going to have this level of honesty to go, huh. Again, it's like slowing down and taking things in and contemplating and reflecting and not just be driven by conditioned responses and triggers. [Speaker 2] (57:23 - 57:28) Yeah. Very well said, man. Very well said. [Speaker 3] (57:30 - 57:30) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (57:31 - 58:22) I mean, we can keep going, obviously. But I think... I think we've given people a lot to chew on and to contemplate and think about. Yeah. And I mean, like, I just want to restate again, like, this is a way of life. Your daily practices either feed or diminish your self-esteem constantly. No one can just give you self-esteem. And once you've moved to a place of high self-esteem or healthy self-esteem, it's not there forever, right? It's something which needs to be reinstated, nurtured, nourished by the way that you live, by the way that you interact with others on an ongoing basis. And it's a spectrum. Sure, you can dip in and out of healthy self-esteem and poor self-esteem, etc. But, you know, a baseline of healthy self-esteem is going to give you the resilience to bounce back much quicker, for sure. [Speaker 1] (58:23 - 58:49) What are your thoughts on, like, a person having high self-esteem in one area in their life and low self-esteem in another area? Like, potentially someone in the workplace, they're willing to take on challenges. They're willing to keep moving and growing and learning new skills. But then, like, you know, in their relationship, they are rigid. They, you know, they won't look to grow. They won't take responsibility. Like, what are your thoughts on that? [Speaker 2] (58:49 - 59:28) Yeah, well, I mean, it can definitely happen, right? Because, I mean, someone can have developed, you know, their self-esteem in one area of their life, yet they feel unworthy and incompetent and have a baseline of feeling not as capable in other areas of their life, you know? Maybe they've overly identified with being someone who's, like, a good employee and is great at what they do, etc., etc., etc. Yeah, when it comes to their home life and their relationships, like, they're probably avoiding reality on some level. And hence, the self-esteem that they bring into that relationship or into that environment is not going to be the same as to what they bring into an environment or to an area where they are more comfortable. [Speaker 1] (59:30 - 59:30) I hear you. [Speaker 2] (59:31 - 1:00:56) Thanks for sharing your thoughts. No worries. Like, it's not, you know, it can definitely happen. There's no doubt about that, like, for sure. But yeah, so, I mean, I want to quote Brandon here. He says, every value pertaining to life requires action to maintain it. If we do not continue to breathe, the breathing we did yesterday will not keep us alive today. The same principle applies to self-esteem and the practices that support it. And so, there are key components, there are pillars, there are practices to self-esteem. We do a very deep dive into this in Rise Above the Herd. And like Erasmus has mentioned, even from a human design perspective, we cover human design in depth. All participants get a one-on-one human design reading with Erasmus plus 10 weeks of human design guidance from Sophie and Erasmus. And there's so much out there in terms of modalities, in terms of self-help, in terms of self-improvement. And I'm still not seeing much conversation around self-esteem, if I'm being perfectly honest, despite the fact that all these ideas to me revolve around this core concept. So, in closing, I guess I really hope through today's conversation, we've been able to appropriately convey the importance of self-esteem and the role that it plays in one's life. [Speaker 1] (1:00:59 - 1:02:54) Yeah, I don't have anything to add to that. For those of you that are listening, thank you. And just take this as an invitation to live more consciously, to be more curious about your behavior, about who you are, about what you want in life, about how you go about life. And I personally love this stuff. I love human behavior. I love learning about what makes people tick. I love people that are truly, truly on the path to living the life that they really want, that are lit up by what they do, that are learning the things they want to learn, that are sharing the things they want to share, that are building the things that they want to build, that are leading in a way that they truly want to lead, and are being, again, radically honest. Here for the fucking truth. It isn't just about what's happening in the external world and all the crazy conspiracies out there. It is, I would say, primarily, what's happening within you. Who are you? What are your gifts? What do you value? What can you do that only you can do, that no one else can do in the way that you do it? You know, and are you stepping into that? And are you owning that? And are you being 100% real about where you're falling short and how can you improve on that? Okay, and again, it's not about perfection. It's just about the reality of, hey, I can step up in this area of my life. And maybe I'll pick up a book. Maybe I'll join a course. Whatever that is, you know. You are the guru of your life. That's it. We're here. We're guides. We can offer support and guidance. But no matter what, at the end of the day, you have to make the decisions. Okay? You have to make the choices. You have to do the necessary work to improve in the areas of your life that you want to improve in. [Speaker 2] (1:02:56 - 1:03:33) Before you were born, there was conspiratorial activity and malevolence taking place on this planet. After you die, there'll be conspiratorial activity and malevolence taking place on this planet. The life that you live in between, you're never going to get a shot at again. Right? It's as simple as that, really. So where is your focus? And what is truly worthy of you valuing in action in your life? And to me, like what you mentioned before, you know, the greatest work we'll ever undertake is the life that we're creating. You know, I'm sure I messed it up, but... [Speaker 1] (1:03:33 - 1:04:15) Yeah, yeah. The most creative act you will undertake is the act of creating yourself. You did a pretty good job of it. But it's true. You know, what are you creating? Where are you putting your attention? Where are you putting your energy? Okay? Like, we get it. The world's fucked up. We get it. There are people in power that don't care about our interests. Like, how many more websites, how many more rabbit holes can you go down when the primary rabbit hole of like who you are is a mystery to most people, truly outside of the conditioned behaviors and the conformity in that, but truly who you are, your dreams, your pains, you know, your gifts. Like, that's what I care about. [Speaker 2] (1:04:15 - 1:04:41) So, like... And ultimately, that's what your children are going to care about, right? Like, they're going to care a lot less about not saying it's not important, but about how much mommy and daddy, you know, question the shape of the earth or whatever it might be, etc, etc. What's really going to impact them is what is the level of self-esteem that was modeled to me by my parents in my household? Because that's what I'm going to take with me ultimately. [Speaker 1] (1:04:42 - 1:04:55) Yeah. And what's the level of nervous system health within my parents that are going to impact me on a daily basis? So, if you're not a parent, but want to be a parent, these are things to think about. If you are a parent, these are things to think about. [Speaker 2] (1:04:55 - 1:06:13) Yeah. All right, guys, just in final round 10 of Rise Above the Hood, our 10-week holistic program to lead you to greater alignment, truth, disparity, and well-being in your own life is now open. There are currently only 10 spots remaining. And I just want to close by, I guess, reading this amazing testimonial by a recent graduate, Chris McCormick. He says, I had reached the glass ceiling and couldn't get beyond the mediocrity of my life that had become overwhelming. This course shattered the glass ceiling into smithereens and provided extremely well-thought-through steps, knowledge, and experiences to enable progress. The level of detail revealed around the insidious programming we humans have been subjected to allows for a quantum jump in understanding and ability to take one's power back like never before. There is life before Rise Above the Hood, and there is life after. The two are very different. Just make sure you do the work and keep going. Thank you so much, Chris. And appreciate the words and glad that we create something that offers that to individuals. If you're down to learn more, there is a mammoth amount of information about this program at riseabovethehood.co. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here for the truth. And we'll see you next time.