Steven Ravnstag Cows and Kettlebells

[Speaker 3] (0:00 - 1:44) All right, everybody, welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. Thank you so much for listening and tuning in from wherever you are and whatever platform you're hearing us on or watching us on. Today, Stephen Ravistock returns for the third time. He's a teacher dedicated to helping individuals harness their awareness to shape their desired life experiences. Stephen is a friend, Erasmus, and his wife, Sophie, and Stephen, whose partner is actually Melissa Sell, who I'm sure many of our listeners know, are close friends and I've hung out many times in person. I got to hang out with Stephen for the first time just recently this past June at Erasmus' birthday party in LA and also again at Music and Sky. So awesome just to be able to connect in person. But yeah, just a guy whose mind works in magnificent ways. There's no doubt about that. In this podcast, we broach a diverse range of topics and conversations and have just free-flowing dialogue. So I hope you guys get a lot of value out of it. And I just want to say thank you for listening. Thank you for being here. And thank you for just being part of our world and what we do. We've now added videos to Spotify. I don't know if you guys have noticed, but if you're on Spotify, check that out. And for everyone else, all the other videos are housed on our website at hereforthetruth.com. And also, if you're interested in diving deeper into our world, you can hit the coaching and offers tab at hereforthetruth.com to check out the range of things that we have available for you to engage in, whether it's our membership community, whether it's a tarot reading with myself or a human design reading with Erasmus or anything else. So hit the website, browse around, check it out. And thank you so much for being here. Enjoy this episode. [Speaker 4] (1:45 - 1:52) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Erasmus. [Speaker 3] (1:55 - 3:13) All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. Stephen's just sent his bio in. So let me read it now. In the realm where legend meets the modern scroll, there exists a figure... This is amazing. Let me finish this. There exists a figure of both grandeur and peculiar charm, Stephen Ravenstag, known far and wide for his neurotic tendencies and his obsession with cows. Ravenstag weaves tales as intricate as a spider's web, spinning Instagram story posts that stretch on for what feels like eons. His followers, enchanted and exhausted, often wonder if they should grab a snack before embarking on one of his epic digital sagas. Yet Ravenstag is not merely a scribe of social media, he is a warrior in the realm of fitness. Clad in the tightest of shorts, he brandishes kettlebells with a fervor matched only by ancient champions of yore. His workouts, filmed with a dramatic flair, showcase not just his physical prowess, but also his extraordinary ability to make lycra look like a second skin. Stephen's neuroses are legendary, fueling his creativity and ensuring that no detail, however minute, escapes his scrutiny. His tales are peppered with the kind of minutiae that make even the most mundane events seem like grand adventures. Stephen, welcome back to Keeper of the Truth. [Speaker 1] (3:14 - 3:28) Thanks. Thank you very much. I can't tell you how much I resent how fair that roast is. You've not only humiliated me publicly, but deprived me of any ability to feel as though I was unjustly humiliated because it was all so on point. [Speaker 2] (3:30 - 3:44) Well, it's all out of love because you're someone, man, I have such deep respect for and I just, I value your mind and your humor and I'm just grateful that you're in my life. So I'm excited to have you back on and we have no idea where this conversation will go, but I think it'll be fun and enlightening. [Speaker 1] (3:44 - 3:53) I think so too. I'm looking forward to it. I was thinking by the last time and I couldn't believe it. It's been like two years almost. Was this, was our second run two years ago? [Speaker 2] (3:53 - 3:55) It feels like it. Well over one year. [Speaker 3] (3:57 - 4:06) I can't remember. I don't think it's quite been two years, but it's definitely been a while. I think it was maybe February last year, potentially. Okay. Give us an update. [Speaker 1] (4:06 - 5:12) What's been going on in the last year and a half? Well, kind of doing the same old stuff, personal growth and spiritual growth things, one-on-one coaching, group coaching. We got cows. I don't think, did we have cows last time? You didn't have cows. Yeah. So we have two cows and 13 chickens and four ducks and they kind of don't count because they're not as interesting, but cows are magnificent. Raising a baby cow is one of the most stressful things that I've ever had to do because it's kind of like constant worry. Is there something wrong with it? If there is something wrong with it, do I need to help it? We actually adopted two cows that were in really bad shape that were calves and they didn't make it. So we dealt with kind of like the cycle of life and death, which is just kind of like, you know, just kind of sucks. I mean, you do it, you're okay with it and all this, but it's just not fun because you instantly love these little animals. Do you know what I mean? So overall, that's been a really interesting experience. I now can't imagine what life would be like without walking outside and seeing cows and interacting with them and having to apologize to them when I'm leaving the property for a period of time and assuring them I'm going to come back and give them treats, you know? So that's a very interesting thing. I'm surprised by the effect that that's had on me. [Speaker 2] (5:12 - 6:08) Yeah. I hear you, man. I mean, I've never been a cat person and then we got two cats, well, kittens, and then we were going to try to like turn them into like barn cats and killers and realize like, I don't know if that's going to happen. They've bonded to us and we were trying to, we're going to give them away, but we've just fallen in love with them and we're going to keep them. But like this thought of like we live in Topanga, like, you know, once we start letting them out, like anything can happen. And yeah, man, it's pretty special connecting with nature and the natural world in that regards, you know, and experiencing life and death up close, which we've had this conversation before. We had an interview on Monday about regenerative agriculture and some other subjects. And it's like, I feel like human beings, the majority, well, maybe not the majority, but at least the urban, the urbanized man and woman are removed from this connection to nature and even understanding death in an intimate way. Would you agree? [Speaker 1] (6:09 - 7:14) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess I was, and I didn't even know I was really missing it. I would say there's something really interesting about like farm animals, like domestic, like, I mean, cows are livestock. I think chickens aren't. You know, the definition of livestock is when an animal has like multiple uses. So like you eat the cow, you milk the cow, you use the hide. That's like what differentiates livestock from other stuff. But it's kind of weird because like, you know, you have your dogs that live in the house with you. Most people are familiar with that. But then to have this in between tier, so it's not squirrels and it's not like, oh, here's some beautiful deer out in the meadow. It's like they're kind of beasts of the field, but they're also kind of family members. And so there's this interesting middle ground, I think, that probably is a pretty significant connection to nature in an interesting, but very practical way. Not going into the woods to go for a hike, which is a lovely thing to do. These are actual animals that have their own little ecosystem, but you also, you own them and you're responsible for them. But they maintain their wildness in a way that maybe a dog in the house doesn't. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're muted, bro. I'm muted? [Speaker 3] (7:15 - 7:20) No, no, no. Does your relationship to cows, has this made you question your relationship to eating meat at all? [Speaker 1] (7:21 - 8:23) You know, that's interesting and it hasn't. I sit out and I'm aware, I guess, of where the, I don't know if it's a paradox or the conflict, I'm aware of where it could be if it existed. But it feels to me as if I'd have to create it in order for it to be there. I sit out with this cow and I love this cow. And at the same time, we go driving up into the hills over here and there's cattle that will be in the road. They'll actually just go from one field to the other and be in this road. And I see them and they have a beautiful life, these beef cows, at least these. I know not all of them do. And I don't think they would have the life that they did if people weren't eating them. I'm also just kind of like, I'm suspicious of the impulse to be above complicity in any activity that could possibly be regarded as not nice, if that makes sense. I'm willing to accept as part of my nature, the need to eat meat, or if you prefer, as part of my nature, a willingness to eat meat, even if it's not totally necessary, as some people say that it's not. And so, I'm comfortable with that. I don't know what that is, that ambiguity or whatever. [Speaker 2] (8:25 - 8:40) Yeah, I agree with you there. And this is a conversation I've had with some people, I know you and I have talked about this, but this idea like, would these animals even have lives if we didn't eat them? You know, like you said, like, and that's interesting to think about. I don't know. I don't, I don't know. It's, anyways. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (8:41 - 8:43) So, would you eat your cow? [Speaker 1] (8:44 - 9:29) Never. Never. I often joke with Melissa that I'd just as soon eat my neighbor, Alex Jones style, that I love these cows. And I love the chickens too, to be honest with you. I can't imagine these, I mean, these chickens are just lovely ladies, and they just go around, they've taken care of our bug problem. We had terrible fly and what are they called, earwigs last year. And they just vanished. And these chickens are just around, they're industrious, they're constantly scratching, they're spreading the cow manure around. They're nice, they come up to you, you know, to be fed. And some of them will let you pick them up and stuff like that. So, I have a tremendous affection for any animal with whom I interact on a regular basis. And so, there's just no way. Hunting is no problem. I could hunt easily. But when it comes to raising a domestic thing, I probably would be reluctant to do that. [Speaker 2] (9:29 - 9:34) Do you feel that way about the rooster as well? You have a rooster? How many roosters do you have? [Speaker 1] (9:35 - 9:44) We have one rooster. I like him least of all. Interestingly, he's not aggressive. He's just the most skittish. He's the most avoidant. Interesting. [Speaker 2] (9:45 - 10:04) Yeah, ours was until it wasn't. Is that right? Like it was fine. And then it all of a sudden turned into a psychopath and was attacking every single human that went into the chicken run. And so, we made a decision to process it, and I cooked it. I made like a cocoa van, and we ate it, you know, because we wanted to like eat it. But I hear what you're saying. Like, we build an intimate relationship to an animal. [Speaker 3] (10:04 - 10:08) Maybe if that rooster lived with the trauma-informed parents, that could have been avoided. But, you know, yeah. [Speaker 2] (10:08 - 10:11) Yeah, I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. [Speaker 1] (10:13 - 10:17) If he attacked me regularly, I could come around to eating it for sure. [Speaker 2] (10:17 - 10:30) Yeah, no, for sure. For sure. But I hear you. It's like this idea that we build these intimate relationships with certain animals. And we're like, I'm not going to eat it. But then other animals, we don't. And we're like, okay, cool. Like, I have no problem cooking a ribeye. Ambiguity is, it's... [Speaker 3] (10:30 - 10:33) Yeah, no one wants to eat their own prisoners, just other people's prisoners, right? [Speaker 1] (10:34 - 11:04) That's right. Exactly. And, you know, is that wrong? I don't know. Who cares? Like, I mean, you could say, why don't... I've never understood this. You can say, why don't you have affection for everything? Or you could remark on the miracle that you've got the capacity to feel affection for anything. And to me, it's like, you know, why am I going to look at my ability to love this cow and say, well, why don't I love all cows as much as I love this one? Why don't I love all children as much as I love my own children? And it's like, for me, frankly, I feel grateful for the ability to form an emotional connection with this one. [Speaker 3] (11:04 - 11:05) Do you know what I mean? [Speaker 1] (11:05 - 11:05) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (11:05 - 11:19) This is kind of like the manipulation of compassion that comes through the left. You know, often we need to feel this extraordinary empathy and compassion for everybody universally, regardless of the relationship or the experience. [Speaker 1] (11:19 - 11:50) Yes. I think that's true. Yeah. If it's good, it has to be universal. And if it's good and if it's not universal, then it's worse than if it didn't exist at all, which is stupid. And I don't even think anyone really believes it. I think it's just a manipulation tactic. You know, I do think that there's this thing too, where people play a game where they say, you've got to be able to intellectually justify everything about your nature. And if you can't, you have to submit to me and my social reform programs. And I just like, it's not obvious to me that that's true. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (11:51 - 12:01) And I mean, I guess this is why that sort of politics kind of loves a victim, right? Or loves a minority because they can play on that. [Speaker 1] (12:01 - 12:38) Yes. Yeah. I think that advocacy, Thomas Sowell talks a lot about that, that famed concern, maybe mixed with some actual concern for some oppressed party or something like that. It's kind of like the go-to justification for rapacious demands for power and concession. And so whether it's the proletariat or whether it's this or that, like you said, minority group or whatever, it's pretty obvious that you've adopted signaling concern for this group as a way to sort of morally stigmatize people who aren't in your group and also just justify your group's demands for ever more power. It's very clear that's what's going on. [Speaker 3] (12:38 - 12:57) Yeah. And then there's also reality that there's people who genuinely feel deeply, like for example, when they see images or videos of coming out of Palestine or whatnot, like they feel deeply affected, you know, on an empathetic level. And yet, you know, so yeah, it's interesting. [Speaker 2] (12:58 - 13:08) Yeah. I'm curious what percentage of vegans and the people that really fight hard are leftists or more liberal leaning versus like how many vegan conservatives are? [Speaker 3] (13:08 - 13:49) I think this is the thing. I think this is... So like the leftist talking points, so people who aren't really thinking things through properly and looking at the root of ideas, they just immediately magnetize to that sort of politics or lump themselves in with that because the language and the dialogue and the talking points suit what's happening on that level. That's the feeling that I get. Like, for example, like Kamala Harris, you know, has said some pro-Palestinian things. And then so everyone who doesn't think really deeply about it on a level but aligns with the plight of the Palestinian people is going to be like, oh, that's the answer. That's what we need to group ourselves with. [Speaker 1] (13:50 - 15:04) Yeah. I mean, it seems to me like that. So you have like a human capacity or tendency to feel empathy or compassion or whatever. And if you think about the context in which that capacity came to be relatively small communities, if you're feeling compassion for someone, it's probably your neighbor or it's probably someone that's in the neighboring village or something like that. It makes sense. There's utility to it. I mean, there would be, I think, during that time, greater chance that the information that you have with regard to the situation would be pure. If you know about the thing, you probably have first or secondhand knowledge of what's going on so that unmitigated compassion would make a lot more sense versus if I'm seeing it through a multi-tiered information dissemination network so that I can look at what's happening in Palestine, say, and conceivably have absolutely no idea about anything that is what's happening, why is it happening, what's the context, right? I could actually worse, I could have a completely incorrect picture of what's going on. And so I think it becomes very easy in a situation like that to hijack what under other circumstances would be probably pretty good aspects of human nature, like the compassion thing, like reflexive disgust at perceived injustice or whatever. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (15:04 - 15:57) Like, are we supposed to care about every single thing? Like, are we built our nervous systems, you know, have the capacity to, like, deal with every conflict that's happening in the world? Like, I just, this is the part of me that just doesn't care. Like, I just, I can't care about everything. And especially when you're talking about the information dissemination pathways, like, there are things that are horrific happening that no one has a clue about. You know, but this gets propped up. And so, what, we have to rearrange our entire lives and our inner world just to be able to put our attention and focus on this one event. I'm not saying, like, completely, you know, la, la, la, you know, put earmuffs on, but it just, it just seems odd to me, like, from a human being standpoint that, like, we need to care about every single thing. [Speaker 3] (15:57 - 16:16) Let me just ask you this question. So, for example, I don't know if you've seen any footage or videos, but if you're watching a video and you're seeing families be blown, separated, you see a child losing limbs and losing arms and, like, barely have life. Like, are you, like, why are you saying nothing's happening within you as... [Speaker 2] (16:16 - 16:49) No, I mean, I watch it and it impacts me, but, like, am I going to spend 24-7 focusing on something that I don't really have control over, you know? And then if I'm not spending 24-7 of it, I'm going to get scolded. I'm going to get yelled at. I'm not posting about it every day. I'm not doing what the new current thing is. But, like, yeah, cool. I can have an experience. I can watch a video. I can cry. I can, like, feel it in my gut and then go on with my day. Like, I just... It's not my number one battle I'm trying to fight. [Speaker 3] (16:49 - 17:38) Yeah. And so, I think the driver or the motivator for some people who maybe, you know, haven't explored as much psychological work or whatnot is that a contradiction within their own morality arises, you know, where it's like, now, you know, I need to project that I care so deeply and I have to do the same actions and do all the sharing and, you know, change the profile picture and all the rest of it to kind of fill this void of contradiction that exists within their own moral system where it's like, oh, this is the right thing to do at this point in time. Even though maybe on a deeper level, there is that same recognition that you're as much as sharing that it's like, do I universally across the board throughout my entire day have that care about this issue? [Speaker 1] (17:39 - 19:56) Yeah. Yeah. When you don't know what to do, draw a box and then check it, right? I mean, it's kind of a, you know, it's sort of a... It's something symbolic is better than nothing at all. And, well, and the thing to me, and this is just a general heuristic, right, that does it guide my behavior? I don't know, but it informs kind of how I think about this, that an emotionally satisfying engagement with the current thing is not likely to be a meaningfully positive contribution to altering the current thing, you know, so that if everyone is telling you... Which is why, you know, sometimes people will complain about my commentary on situations like this. And it's because for me, it's like saying what's happening in Palestine is bad. While true, I'm disturbed by the notion that saying that makes a person feel as though they've done something when in fact they haven't, or what they have done is pre-neutralized by the existing system. The existing system is designed to absorb the expression of that sentiment by tens of millions of people, by 10,000 people at one demonstration in the street is really prepared to handle that. What it's not necessarily prepared to handle is a really thorough, deep understanding of why exactly is all this stuff going on? What's happening? And in order to do that, you've got to do a couple of things. You've got to talk about a lot of stuff in a lot of detail, which people aren't interested in. And that's the interesting thing for me is that a lot of people are willing to feel a pain of compassion, or they're willing to cry over a situation, but they're not necessarily willing to spend the hours necessary to fully understand what the cause of that situation is. And I think there's a little bit of intellectual laziness there, right? I think that there's a little bit of a... And I think the thing is too, that if you feel strongly about something, there is at times a sense that you've done something about it when in fact you haven't. Whereas if you spend time trying to form a coherent understanding of what's going on... And the thing too is risk social ostracization, right? Because one, you might say things that are regarded as inappropriate and that the sort of NPC class will condemn you for. Or, and this is sort of more my case, you form a picture of reality that is so separate from that of the average person that they not only don't accept what you're saying, they don't even reject it. Because in most cases, they don't understand it because you're not tricking any... You're not tripping any of the wires that let them know, oh, this is what he's saying here, right? [Speaker 3] (19:56 - 20:36) Yeah, totally, man. I think also when most of us have been conditioned with this idea that altruism is the highest form of morality, then we feel this inauthentic drive to present this form of morality, even at the cost of our own wellbeing and our own rational desires and pursuing what would really add value to our lives at the expense of having to pour energy into filling that morality bucket of altruism. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (20:36 - 21:26) Yeah. Sort of balancing wisdom and compassion, I think. Tactical compassion makes sense to me. There are times when it's useful, but I think also wisdom, which is sometimes sort of hard and sometimes it is unforgiving in the sense that it doesn't feel good to act upon it in the moment necessarily. Sometimes wisdom is the recognition that X number of units of compassion about this topic today is likely not going to change the situation. This isn't going to help. And worse than that, it's not only not going to do anything good, it's going to kind of do something bad because it's going to make me feel as though I've done something when perhaps I haven't. And that's a big thing. I'm really skeptical of any activity that gives me a false sense of productivity or a false sense of meaningful engagement with reality. Email checking is just a funny example of that. But I think also emoting about social issues is another example. [Speaker 2] (21:27 - 21:52) Yeah. I agree with you. And I feel like for some of these people, I'm like, well, then go get on a flight and go over there and go over there and freaking do your part. Sitting here yelling at someone because they disagree with a post or they didn't post something I just think is ridiculous. It's like this view that like my emotional reactions in the moment equate to truth. I just disagree with personally. [Speaker 3] (21:53 - 22:08) Yeah. I think also people like to identify with the victim archetype. And so they vicariously play the victim through these social issues as well. And then they embody it as if it's their own because it feels like it's a familiar state for many people to want to sit in that. [Speaker 1] (22:11 - 23:09) Sometimes it does seem like global tragedies or global problems or issues give a person a sense that's like, today's not the day to engage with my personal stuff because at the macro level, things are super bad. And until things settle down up there, it's almost... I mean, what is it? It's almost like superfluous. It's almost selfish. It's almost superficial and vain for me to work on how I talk to my partner. I don't know what's going on in Palestine. Like, yeah, I'm really mean to my kids, but don't you know what's happening in Palestine? Like, yeah, I need to figure out a workout routine that works for me. I need to do something about my negative internal dialogue, but oh my God, you know what's happening over there? And it's like, it seems... And that's one of the things for me too, is concern about the situation justified is a different question than in what role is my attention to this situation playing in my life right now? And very often a situation about which one might feel legitimate concern is playing a dysfunctional role in their life. And they are in fact using it to avoid doing things here that would be good to do. [Speaker 2] (23:10 - 23:51) Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a distraction mechanism as well. I mean, it just brings me back to the whole Black Square thing, the whole George Floyd. Like, I didn't post to Black Square and then like... You didn't? No, I didn't. An NPC came onto my DMs and like went off on me because I posted a testimonial about a human design reading someone had with me. They're like, how dare you post a testimony about your work when this is happening? How come you didn't post to Black Square? And I knew this person and I knew them pretty well. So fortunately, I just took two messages back to them, diplomatic messages for them to apologize to me. But it was just like, I can't post about things I'm focused on and passionate about because I didn't do the thing? [Speaker 1] (23:52 - 24:27) Yeah. That's shocking that the temerity required to... I mean, to one, to think that someone shouldn't, you're deranged. But then to actually contact that person directly, there's something very kind of malice about that. That is an absolutely a little effort at a malice struggle session and a forced conformity. And the thing is to the secret pleasure and delight that a person has by correcting you is disturbing. So that even if you kind of explain to them why you didn't, it's like, yeah, but I'm still kind of freaked out by the fact that you were real eager to do what you did. And whatever generated that behavior, I think that engine is probably still in there somewhere. Yeah, that's wacky. Oh, yeah, for sure. [Speaker 2] (24:27 - 24:36) There's been a few other instances that I've noticed since then, and especially since she's gone on a born again, Jesus path that she's said some things to people. [Speaker 1] (24:38 - 27:27) Anyways, that's a very different context, right? But the same kind of overbearingness, which is kind of interesting difference between pattern and content. And that's, I think that's one of those things about like, I mean, critical theory, and you talk about cultural Marxism and how it affects the manner in which people behave in ways that it's not like a cultural Marxist. Now, listen to me, it influences the structure of their thinking. It's the assumptions from which their thoughts flow. So there's like this difference between indoctrination and programming. So indoctrination is like, well, here are the 25 tenants of the organization. Be sure you remember these and relay these to people and embody them at all times, whereas programming really alters the structure of a person's thinking. So I don't know if you've, if you're, you probably have seen this, right? This problematization of things. This is problematic. That's problematic. I mean, you look at something and you figure out, you find a way to say, well, this can be problematic because of that. And okay, we fix it over here. And if that weren't wrong, what would we say? Well, then this is problematic, right? And it's this ability to look around. I think it was Marx that said it is the ruthless or merciless critique of all that exists. So it's this basic idea. I mean, well, normal people just call it being negative, but it's this thing where you just look at something and you don't say, is this good? Is this bad? You look at it, you assume it's bad and proceed to explain exactly why it's a bad thing. And that's, you know, that's sort of derived from this. It's a Rousseauian notion, basically. And Thomas Sowell talks about this too, the difference between the, I always forget the one, there's the tragic view of the world. And then there's another one. It's not the utopian view, but there's these two different views. And the left has this idea that says anytime there's anything going wrong, it's because a system of oppression is causing that to happen. There would be no bad, there would be no wrong, there would be no sad, there would be no hurt in the world if it weren't for some unfair system that's creating it. So anywhere you look, if you see something that you don't like, it's because a system of oppression is causing it to be there. And so what you do is just criticize the system until the system falls apart. And then what will spring, all you've got to do is jackhammer the sidewalk and then a beautiful garden that not only is nice to look at, but that will grow strawberries and everyone can eat them and be happy forever will happen. Versus the tragic view, which is kind of more of the traditionally conservative, I don't like that term, but you get the idea, not leftist. And that view is the world is the way that it is, because that's the way the world is. That not every negative outcome requires an explanation about what source of systemic oppression accounts for the fact that some people have more money than other people. That perhaps no explanation is required for a disparity in outcome that exists here. Now, if you have that view, you see a disparity in outcome or you see an undesirable situation and you don't assume that it's fixable, but you also don't assume that it's fixable by finding unfairness in the system and obliterating it. Does that make sense? [Speaker 3] (27:28 - 27:54) This mindset also exists on the right side of politics too, though. And even within truth communities, I think I find people find so many things to consider themselves oppressed through, whether it's leftist governments, whether it's the new world order, whether it's Klaus Schwab, whether it's whatever it might be. Even on that side, they like to play the victim and identify with ways to consider themselves oppressed, I've found. It's more subtle, but it's there. [Speaker 1] (27:55 - 29:13) Yeah. And I think there's an interesting kind of distinction between a person can say, okay, these people are engaging in behaviors that are oppressive, or these people are engaging in shenanigans at the internationalist or the globalist level, and that's bad. And that could be absolutely true, but there's a subtle implication there. It goes, if it weren't for them, my life would be wonderful. And that's actually not true. And actually, there can be bad people doing bad things in very high places. And those people could be providing people like us at our level, they could be providing us with a significant psychological advantage. But my life consists of looking around, seeing what you're doing and saying, if it weren't for what you're doing, my life would be better. That's very comforting. That structures my time, as a dog trying to get in the room. Pearl, my shepherd, is very opposed to closed doors. She has an open door policy. And so that assumption, and that's one of those things like, is there something wrong with collective action? I don't think so. But the issue with group identity, the issue with collective action is that if you are inclined to use it as a way to sneak in a bunch of personal mediocrity, you're going to do it. It's going to be very easy to do it. It's going to be very easy to make statements that are technically true, but that are actually cover for your own loser behaviors. And that's an issue. [Speaker 2] (29:14 - 29:22) Well, let's go back to the fact that you have a dog that doesn't believe in borders and is primarily left-leaning. So, how did you raise the dog that way? [Speaker 1] (29:23 - 29:31) Well, I think she just knows how to open doors. And if there's a closed door, she says, oh, I need to open that. I think she thinks that's her job. She is a shepherd. So, I'm supposed to be in her view. [Speaker 2] (29:32 - 29:34) Oh, Pearl, what a sweetheart. [Speaker 1] (29:34 - 30:40) Yeah. It's big too. Where do we go from here? I don't know. Go in all sorts of directions. What kind of cult are you leading? Well, this is actually ironic because as you probably have guessed, I lack the social skills necessary to be an actual cult leader. So, this is more aspirational than confessional at this time. I sometimes reflect with humor on the fact that I'm doing exactly the kind of thing that would be called a cult. I think that there are people who take my course whose friends and family said, oh, my God, that just sounds like a big cult and all this different stuff, just to get any kind of personal growth. And it's interesting to me how much it seems to me like that's not what it is. So, sometimes I'll reflect to myself and say, is this actually some form of what people are talking about when they describe cults? Because if it is, it's very strange because I really have a feeling like I'm teaching people to think for themselves. Like if I were actually a cult leader in some capacity, I'd be very surprised that this is what it's like to be a cult leader. Does that make sense? You're an ethical cult leader. Am I? I don't know. [Speaker 2] (30:42 - 31:07) Yeah. Wasn't that a phrase we read recently? It was like, if you're an ethical cult leader, it's hard for you to get in, but easy to get out as opposed to easy for you to get in and hard for you to get out. That's interesting. Of the cult. Yeah. Oh, I see. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's like, hey, well, I'm not going to just indoctrinate and teach anyone how to think for themselves. It's like, do I want to work with you? Do I not want to work with you? [Speaker 3] (31:07 - 31:16) It sounds very much like the mystery school tradition. You got to do the work to get in, but ultimately have the individual choice to lead whenever you want. [Speaker 1] (31:17 - 32:29) Right. Well, and if I don't kick you out first, because some people just miss... Some people do this thing in personal work, and I'm sure that you've experienced this and people have had this in their personal lives. If it's like a coach client or whatever you want to call it, where there's a difference between you helping the person deal with their patterns. Sometimes the person will begin to practice their patterns on you. And so this interesting situation arises where it's kind of like, hang on a second here. Is this a coaching situation or is this a customer service situation? Because customer service wise, I'm going to tell you, well, if you're unhappy with it, then I'll refund you your money and send you on your way just to get rid of you. Right. But from a coaching perspective, I think you're doing right now in this relationship with me exactly what you do in your other relationships that caused the problems that brought you here in the first place. And so I think that that's something, even if you're not a coach, if you're just a friend with someone or if you're in a relationship with someone, it's like, am I your awareness helper right now or am I your boyfriend, girlfriend right now? And sometimes those roles get kind of crossed up and people are really crafty sometimes, I think, inflicting upon you the very pattern with which they have asked you for help to solve. My prepositions got messed up there. They'll ask you for help with a pattern and then when you're trying to help them, they'll start to practice that pattern on you. That's a tenacious vein. [Speaker 2] (32:30 - 32:51) What do you think the role, like when you're in a more conscious partnership, let's say where both parties are into personal development and growth, like at what degree do you think it's too much like playing the person's awareness coach or playing the person's therapist? I know it depends on the dynamic and you can't just do like one rule for everyone, but I'm curious your thoughts on that. [Speaker 1] (32:52 - 34:12) I think the threshold for too much is extremely low. I think it's extremely, extremely low. And I think really in my relationship with Melissa, I feel like we have gone to like 98% awareness coach at various moments in time, like not for long seasons of time. And we then had to go through that place into a new pattern of relating with one another. And it was an interesting thing for me to experience in this relationship because we've been together now for many years that I could, let's say without necessarily doing anything wrong in any specific exchange, I could by relaying high quality information to my partner, begin to participate in a dynamic that was not useful. Without either of us necessarily have done anything wrong. It's kind of like, personally, I think what I said to you is true. Personally, I think that you would benefit from hearing it. I think you think you've benefited from hearing it. And yet still a dynamic arises as a result of that information having come from me and gone to you that is not necessarily desirable. And so I think the thing for that is watch that, observe that, acknowledge that it's true. Don't be provoked into compulsive attempts to fix that. And you can just kind of float right through it. But in general, I mean, don't you just want to, don't you just want to do life with a person and not do meta life programming with them? I mean, at least most of the time. [Speaker 2] (34:13 - 34:30) Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, it's just, it's interesting. Sometimes like there is that instinct of wanting to just like correct someone. Like, you know, you're doing this, you're doing, you're doing something wrong, you're behaving in the wrong way when sometimes just shutting your mouth ends up with a more enjoyable experience of life and the relationship. [Speaker 1] (34:30 - 36:06) Sure does. It sure does. And one of the ways that I work with that is I make fun of it. So I make fun of myself as a teacher of this stuff all the time. I make fun of the people who are in awareness school, sales pitch. Like, I mean, I make fun, I mean, I say everything we teach you is made up. Either I made it up or I stole it from someone and they probably made it up. And that really is true. And it's okay as long as it produces the results that you want. And so when Melissa and I began to get a sense of humor about the follies that personal growth people can get into in a relationship, we let that be okay. Because it was interesting to examine what's my objection to being a little bit too teachy in this relationship. And my objection is that it violates the image that I want to have of myself. And so I said, uh-huh, I'm getting uptight about a violation of the image that I'm holding of myself. This is a really great opportunity to embrace a situation that violates my self-image. We could say that that makes the eagle unconquerable. Do you know what I mean? And I was like, okay, what if I just did the same thing with the cows and the eating the meat with loving the animal and stuff like that? It's like, okay, so here's a contradiction. Am I going to push this away? Am I going to rush to rationalize it or explain why it's okay? Or we're just going to kind of go, you know, I don't have everything figured out. I solved one problem. And in the process of solving that problem or partially solving that problem, I found myself in the midst of another one. That sounds like life to me. Isn't that funny? And then, you know, you can just have a talk with your partner about it and it's silly. And I think one of the other things that's really important is have fun with them. You need to have fun with your partner and you need to enjoy them. And if you're fixing each other, that's fine. But don't wait to have fun until you're both totally fixed. You need to have fun before, during, and after the fixing. [Speaker 2] (36:08 - 36:39) Yeah, I agree. Things can get so serious in partnership sometimes. It's like, where's the playfulness? You know, where's the silliness? You know, while you're maybe discussing deep things or calling each other out in a way and then like coming back together and then laughing about it. And, you know what I mean? Especially during like the repair process that happens, you know, sometimes one person triggers the other person or whatever, and then you pull away, you withdraw, you do your things, your patterns, you come back together. And then like, maybe you take responsibility for how you came across and you share something and then you're talking and then you're making jokes of it, you're laughing of it. And it's like, okay, cool, let's move on. [Speaker 1] (36:39 - 38:24) Yeah, that's what I found in my relationship. Yeah, for a long time, I felt that my protective mechanism was being kind of one up on my partner. And I don't mean necessarily having control over her, but I mean, I wanted to have behaved more properly than she did. And that was just kind of growing. And it wasn't even like, okay, so I'm going to make up things that she did that she didn't do. It was just I noticed within myself, listen, there's this big desire that I want to be the one who's doing the better job when it comes to relating. And I kind of reflect on that. Like, what is my experience of this relationship like when my when my main priority is to have not been the one that messed up the most, and it was tedious, it was onerous, it incentivizes bullshitting myself and all this. And so then I started to get to the place. And that was, I think, early life experiences, like I was avoiding being perceived as making a mistake, because there was a heavy penalty associated with it. And then I said, really, what I want from this relationship is I want a dynamic in which it's so completely safe to have been the one that screwed up, that I'm not trying to monitor my behavior to avoid finding myself in the position of having a mistake used against me. If anything, I'm monitoring my my behavior just for optimization purposes. Like what I want is I want a partner and I want a dynamic in which when I make a mistake, it's no big deal. When I'm overbearing, or when I'm the one in the wrong, or when I'm the one who did a pattern or violated or whatever, I want a situation in which I can have it pointed out to me. And in a way, that's not a big deal. And I can look at it and I can say, is that true? Is that not true? It seems true to me. Okay, and then we just move right on. And that was, you know, it was, I think, like vulnerability, you know, but for me, it was more clarity on exactly what I wanted. And what I wanted was not to never make a mistake. What I wanted was for making a mistake to not be a big deal. [Speaker 3] (38:26 - 38:31) What are the ways that you've personally experienced vulnerability play out in your life? [Speaker 1] (38:31 - 40:45) What is your what is your relationships of vulnerability? I don't really relate to that term a lot. I know that there is a there there, like I get it, like people are talking about something. For me, I mean, I suppose it's it's a it is a willingness to be having the experience that I'm having at a given moment in time. And I think the willingness to be in the situation, interpersonally, financially, whatever, socially that I'm in one story, I actually told the story that we just had our first class of awareness school, I used to have a big issue with humiliation and embarrassment. I was I was had like a phobic aversion to being embarrassed. I was it was like the worst thing that could happen to me, like I would rather be physically injured than have an embarrassing thing happen. And I remember like as a child being kind of fawned over and you know, oh, look at him and how cute he is. And that is always created inside me this horrible feeling I just felt kind of like other than put under a microscope and sort of objectified in some kind of weird way that was always kind of offensive to me. And so I got a big hang up about not being embarrassed, which of course made me even more awkward than I naturally am, which you guys know is fairly, fairly awkward. And I remember I had I was like fifth grade, and I came back from the bathroom and I had stepped on like some toilet paper, and it got stuck to my shoe. And I walked into class and someone saw it pointed out and the whole classroom started laughing. And initially, I was just overwhelmed by like, here we go. This is the word this is like it times 1000. But something strange happened where my it was like my emotional resistance machine was overridden by how intense the humiliation was. And I just surrendered completely to the situation. And in the moment of surrender, there was an awareness of how utterly not personal it was. Even though it was personal, there was something impersonal about how personal it was in the sense that everyone experiences humiliation at some point. And when I recognize that, I just sort of went like this. And everyone laughed. And I went like that, like this, you know, just kind of like there it is. And I'm the guy with the tissue on his own issue. Now, everyone laughed. And it was like, like that. The silence just silenced as if the conductor went like this. And everyone went about their business. And I had this kind of strange moment where I was like, wait a minute, is that it? Is it over? And it was kind of like, okay, okay. So, the way through this is through it. Like the way to the other end of it is just through it. And so, it was this is my willingness to be laughed at. [Speaker 2] (40:46 - 40:54) You accepted it. There was like a moment of self-acceptance and external acceptance. And it was just like, okay, yeah, right. [Speaker 3] (40:54 - 41:07) There it is, right? That was like Stephen's Bill Gates moment. You know when Bill Gates got the cake thrown in his face. Like that was the moment that he decided to like destroy the whole planet. It was like Stephen's moment walking in the classroom with a toilet paper on his foot. [Speaker 1] (41:10 - 41:39) Yeah. Yeah. I think looking back like my childhood, like I take so many, I took so many things so personally. And I was so emotionally bothered by minuscule little things that happen that I think I was kind of forced into a natural sort of personal growth mindset just to rescue myself from the catastrophic emotional consequences of everyday life events. And I got, you know what I mean? Like the little stuff would just absolutely devastate or create very strong emotional reactions inside. And at some point I was like, I got to get a handle on this because otherwise life's not going to be fun. [Speaker 2] (41:39 - 42:21) You pretty much, I remember some of our conversations like you like noticed a lot of stuff and called out a lot of bullshit like from a really young age. Like that was just something that's just kind of been a part of you. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. I think like noticing like people's behaviors and being like, this is off. This is weird. Whereas I feel like most kids just kind of go along with, okay, I'm just doing my thing, following what my parents say. But I feel like, you know, you've always had this, like it's kind of, you've been born with this insight to some degree. I don't know if that resonates or lands, but I mean, anyone that knows you now that is friends with you, goes through your courses, watches your stories, understands that you have a skill for pointing things out and analyzing things and pointing out the ridiculousness of certain things. [Speaker 1] (42:22 - 44:23) From my perspective, it's a matter of like your relationship to information. So like, what do you do when you come upon a little bit of information that seems interesting, but that you're not quite sure what to do with it? For me, always put a pin in it. That's just been my natural response is how do I respond to something that's interesting or potentially important, but I don't see how it fits in. Maybe I don't have time to think about it right now. Maybe the prospect of thinking about it right now creates anxiety inside. You know, especially it's information that seems to contradict something that I believe that has a lot of emotional stuff attached to it. Do I shove it down? Do I just move on? Do I just assume I'll remember it and come back to it later? Like I've never felt sure that I would remember things that were important. So I've always mentally just kind of went like this, I got to come back to this. Oh, my parents told me something and it wasn't true. They told me it wasn't spicy and it was spicy. Okay, parents sometimes are wrong. Put that in there. I mean, it was about ketchup, right, burning my lip. And then six years later, my dad's taking me to Southern Baptist Church, and they're saying all kinds of stuff. And I'm like, wow, you know, you're really into this. But remember when you said that ketchup wasn't gonna burn my lip? Is this, you know, is that and literally like that has been, for me, a tremendous asset. You know, you just catch a person being wrong once and you know, they're capable of being wrong. It doesn't mean they're always wrong. But the next time they tell you something that seems really wild, that makes you uncomfortable. Just remember, they were wrong one time. Yeah. Everyone's wrong at least one time, right? I've never experienced that before. Except for you, Rosso. It helps, though, to have a personal reference point for it, though. Like, you can know intellectually that your parents make mistakes because they're human beings. But if you have witnessed them in a folly, or witnessed them be very, I'm so certain about this. I feel so strongly about this. I honestly believe this is true. And then you just simply matter of fact, we see that it isn't true. It's kind of like, oh, even that force of emotion and that force of authority. And that way that I felt as their child, right, because that's my parents throwing down that gauntlet there. I can feel persuaded by their certainty and still the facts can be other than they were presented. The personal reference point for me has been really important. [Speaker 3] (44:23 - 44:31) So, in that spicy ketchup moment, like, was your dad like, oh, sorry, I genuinely believed it wasn't spicy? [Speaker 1] (44:31 - 45:26) Or was it like brushed off? It was actually, in that case, it was my dad and my mom were both there. But I think it was my, as I remember, it was my mother. And the funny thing was that the ketchup wasn't spicy. I had a cut on my lip. And that to me just adds a whole other meaning to it. And it actually freed me from this whole thing that's like, OK, I understand that technically, technically, you were telling me the truth. And yet I was right to not want to eat it, even though I wasn't right for any reason that I can ascertain. And so her response was effusive regret. Yeah, absolutely. She felt terrible about it. And I think one of the things that she did was that she rushed to explain to me, no, no, it's not spicy. You've got a cut on your lip. And my feeling was, listen, I don't care exactly what the mechanics are. I didn't want to eat it. And I wouldn't be hurting if I didn't eat it. And I did eat it because you told me to. And so and that was just kind of a lesson, not about my parents being bad, but it was a lesson about, listen, sometimes people are real sure and you need to listen to your intuition, even if you can't justify it. You know what I mean? [Speaker 4] (45:28 - 45:32) I do. Now a short break from the episode. [Speaker 3] (45:33 - 46:15) Hope you're enjoying this episode in the Friends of the Truth, which is our membership community this month. In August, we're doing seven calls. We've got Nelly Barnett joining us on the 21st of August, diving into German new medicine and personal responsibility and answering our members' questions. We have a special bonus call at the end of our month for our members, a somatic breathwork journey hosted by former Rise Above the Herd graduate Stephen Cantola, which we're really looking forward to as well. But you can head to friendsofthetruth.co to see the full slate of calls lined up. And yeah, if you're down, come join in, say hello, and we'd love to connect with you and have some fun and learn together as well. [Speaker 4] (46:16 - 46:17) Back to the episode. [Speaker 1] (46:18 - 48:45) When's the last time you cried? Oh, Lord. Well, I can tell you for sure that I cried when Buttercup, our cow, she miscarried a bit because she had a... And that's like that farm thing, man. And grief, I hate it. I just hate it. I'm willing to do it. I don't care if you see me doing it, but I'll be sort of sobbing. I mean, I've buried two cows since we've lived here. And I'm so grateful for the physical work required to bury a beloved animal because it gives you 45 minutes, an hour and a half of respite from just being gnawed up by the emotion. And I remember like one of the cows that we had, she was almost like 75% blind and all this different stuff. And she came to stay with us and she had pneumonia and we did everything we could. And the night that she ended up passing away, I sat with her and I was like, I had this terrible feeling of what was coming. And it was like, I'm so afraid of how I'm going to feel tomorrow morning because I'm going to come out here and I'm going to see that body there and I'm going to be like, fuck. And sure enough, that's what happened. And when it happened, there was not relief, but there was almost something that goes, okay, now we can do the grief thing. And it's just, man, and I had to carry this. I mean, she was big, you know, I mean, she was a little cow, but she's big. And so I had to carry her way up this hill because I wanted to plant her up in the ground so that she could kind of see the, again, that symbolic stuff. I give myself over totally to that, what may be meaningful, meaningless symbolism, because it is, it feels important and it doesn't bother me that I don't understand what the purpose of it is. So I definitely cried just on and on and on about that one. I mean, when Buttercup lost her calf, you know, Melissa found it and everything, and it was a, it's a protracted thing. It takes a while for it to come out and then it's there. And then she's doing like the mama cow stuff to the, just in, you know, of licking it and stuff. Just like, this is miserable, you know, but then, you know, you just, you have to take care of the situation. And I felt like, I feel overwhelmed with gratitude for the burden of responsibility because it saves me from sitting in this, the feeling of what I would be feeling if I didn't have to do something. So the need to bury, the need to care for the, for Buttercup and, you know, and to see that she's okay and everything like that. So big, big crying there. If something bad happens to an animal of mine, I'm a wreck. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (48:46 - 48:48) Yeah. Thanks for sharing, man. [Speaker 1] (48:49 - 48:52) Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. I hate it. [Speaker 3] (48:52 - 48:59) I don't like it, but you know, it's just- Does anyone genuinely like, oh yes, the grief is coming. Like, oh. [Speaker 1] (49:00 - 49:02) No, maybe. Oh, we probably lose one person. [Speaker 2] (49:02 - 50:01) I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think it depends on your, like your internal makeup and nature, like different parts too. Like, like, I don't know. I mean, I don't, I don't love grief, but like, I love knowing that I have the capacity to feel deeply and to connect in a new way. Like it opens me up to something different. Like, you know, even like with my dad, my dad passed away recently, like on some level I was expecting it. Like, but like, I don't know. It's almost like an honoring, like by crying and having so much feeling you're honoring this life. You're honoring this thing. It doesn't mean you have to live in it and like be like wallowing in tears for 15 weeks, you know, it's probably not healthy, but I feel like there's an appropriate response to a situation and then you have the appropriate response. And again, it depends on the individual. And then it's like, okay, then we continue on with life. But I think so many people don't even allow themselves for whatever reasons, there's so many factors we can get into to even have the appropriate response, whether it's tears or even freaking anger sometimes. [Speaker 1] (50:01 - 51:06) Yeah. Yeah. It's like sweating to me in an interesting way. The body sweats when it's hot or the body sweats when you're exerting yourself, you know, and in the same way, the body or the soul or whatever, or some combination thereof, it emotes in this way when these events happen. And I have this strange experience when I'm really deep in the grief, you know, and it's just kind of like, Jesus, this is pretty intense. There is a part of me inside that's watching it and just matter of factly being like, this is interesting. Wow, this is, you know, and it's like sweating. And sometimes I have an aversion to sweating. I don't know if you know this, like if you get like showered, you're going to go somewhere, but it's kind of hot, but you're going to a meeting and you know what I mean? You're like this. And sometimes there's that aversion to it. And then sometimes you just let it happen. And I think that the capacity just to sort of let it happen is useful, as useful as it is to be resourceful. I think that it's also very resourceful to be willing to be in a situation where you're basically really challenged to be resourceful or where it's not possible or where being resourceful doesn't do anything about the fact that you're a complete emotional wreck. Yeah, I can't, I can't wear gray shirts, just sweat through them. Gray shirts? [Speaker 2] (51:06 - 51:11) Oh yeah, gray shirts. He said he can't wear gray shirts because he sweats through them. Okay. [Speaker 1] (51:11 - 51:12) Yeah, let me keep my arms down during this. [Speaker 3] (51:14 - 51:16) Stephen, what's sweating from a GNN perspective? [Speaker 1] (51:18 - 51:27) He's like, I don't know. I mean, I think it means you're hot, right? I'm sure that there's something for, was it hyperiridosis or something? We have to ask Melissa about that, but it means you're a bad person. It means you got a lot of guilt. [Speaker 2] (51:27 - 51:31) Well, we'll get her on for episode seven or six or episode six, The Truth About Sweating. [Speaker 3] (51:32 - 51:45) Right. I had a really important question I was going to get into, but my need to get in the sweating comment has resulted in that question leaving my awareness for a period of time. [Speaker 1] (51:46 - 51:46) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (51:47 - 52:46) Well, I guess, well, I don't know. I mean, again, when we hang out, I feel like we can go into so many different areas and conversations. Yeah. I'm curious, and Joel, if you want to go in a different direction, please do, but there's some recent events that are occurring. We have the Olympics. There was something called the opening ceremonies, and you have everyone being up in arms, the Truth-er community, the Christian community, the leftist community, blah, blah, blah about this event. Now, I think if you look historically at opening ceremonies, there's definitely some weird shit that is portrayed in them, and then you can go down the conspiracy rabbit hole and say why that is, but I'm curious your thoughts on that. Specifically the- Like these recent opening ceremonies and their reactions to it, and do you care? Are you like, who cares? Are you like, this isn't, I don't think billions of people should be seeing half-naked people, and you know what I mean? [Speaker 1] (52:46 - 54:46) Yeah. What it was not was a celebration of beauty. It was not that for certain, and the interesting thing about that is that I think that there are a whole bunch of what you could call wrong responses or not useful responses to it, but that doesn't mean that no response or affected aloofness is preferable, right, or ideal. I think it's, the thing for me is not the event itself. It's the ideological invasion from which the event is downstream, that it's an affront to normalcy that is principled in nature, which is to say it's not someone's artistic creative display that happens to deviate from the norm, and therefore arouses contempt. It is designed from the beginning as an affront to what is regarded as normal, and it's that way as part of an ideological agenda to be corrosive towards and undermine anything that's regarded as normal, regardless really of what that is. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a manifestation of, I think, neo-Marxism, which is downstream. It's kind of a fusion of Freudian psychiatry and cultural Marxism, and the idea, and it's one of those things too, so the idea is to provoke a negative response from the European Christian establishment, right? And if you don't provoke a response, well, then that just means that you've cemented your cultural hegemony, right? They don't even say anything to us anymore. And if you do provoke a response, well, then you point at it and say, oh my God, look at these reactionaries, look and see how intolerant they are and all this different stuff. And so it's part, it's just one in a long line, I think, of things that are designed to erode Western civilization. I actually think that is true. Yeah, it definitely seems that way. Did you watch the whole thing? I haven't. I didn't watch it from beginning to end. I watched little three-minute clips. [Speaker 3] (54:47 - 55:06) Yeah, I didn't watch it. I didn't watch it at all. But the curiosity for me is like, was there anything genuinely beautiful, genuinely inspiring, genuinely creative? And are we just seeing the short segments of debauchery because that's what the human psychology wants to cling to and circulate and bring into the forefront of awareness? [Speaker 1] (55:07 - 55:33) Yeah, quite possibly. I'm a little of, I mean, from the kind of the energy perspective and things like that, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm also sort of the opinion that in a healthy society, that just wouldn't happen. I agree with that. The expressions. And again, that's one of those things is that the values would promote an adherence to some aesthetic standard. [Speaker 3] (55:35 - 55:44) Have you thought much about life post-human death, post-death? What are your thoughts on that topic? [Speaker 1] (55:46 - 57:22) I don't really know what happens. And I guess I feel pretty comfortable with it because I figure I'll find out eventually. There are certain things in my life that, you know, like past lives. You know what I think? I think I remain deliberately agnostic about that so that I don't have an intellectual framework that distorts any experiences I might have. You know, I'll often say that I'm not claiming to have lived a past life, but that I at times feel as I feel things that would make sense if I had, or I have perspectives or I have sentiments or reactions to things that that model would explain it. Is it literally true? I don't know. Do I have capacity to understand what's going on? I don't know. I think a certain amount of healthy indifference to what happens next is probably good. That, you know, kind of, I mean, it's natural to wonder about it, but it's also probably the fact that that wondering doesn't bring any definite answers. You know, Melissa will accuse me of being what's called post-mortal sometimes. So there's this post-mortal constellation. And I think it's an unfair accusation because like if I see a coffin in a show that we're watching, you know, like we're watching Stranger Things right now, which is, you know, I'm in the Matrix. And there's like a scene where there's a coffin, and I'm like, you know, if I die, will you put me in a nice coffin or a cheap coffin? And that's just like, I'm just asking stupid children's questions, you know, because I like to do that. And she says, oh, that's a post-mortal constellation. I'm like, it would be a post-mortal if I was just sitting on the couch drinking coffee and out of nowhere, I say, you know, when I die, you're going to put me in a nice coffin. But if you see it on TV, it's not that bad, you know. [Speaker 2] (57:23 - 57:53) Yeah, I hear you. I think also too, and we've had this conversation before, and we've had death cafes in our membership community. I think there's a lot of people that just don't even want to discuss or talk about death or what does that bring up? It's negative, you know, and I'm not saying Melissa's doing this, but like you see it often, like, you know, and I just, I don't know, I think it's a part of existence, a part of life is that we're all going to die, you know, like that's just the truth, you know, no one escapes death. And so, yeah, one of my favorite TV shows is Six Feet Under. So, if you want to look at coffins, there's a coffin and multiple coffins in every single episode. [Speaker 1] (57:53 - 58:59) So, it's not like a fixation. Yeah, I don't know. And I guess I was always, so when I was growing up, my dad became religious, became a Christian, I don't know, I was probably four or five years old. And all of a sudden, I mean, death was never discussed except for in the capacity of like, oh, so-and-so died, so we got to send him some flowers. So, it was like a naturally occurring thing and you had to do something in response to it. But all of a sudden, when the religious stuff came on the scene, oh my God, what's going to happen after death? And if you thought about that, I'm like, no. And are you worried about that? No. Do you know where you're going to spend eternity? I'm like, that seems like a weird consciousness-shaping question. It seems like you're doing something to me here. You're not actually asking me that question, you're inviting me to start to reshape my mind in a certain way. And so, like, I have a very sort of a before and after the intrusion of religious-based afterlife contemplation comes in and life was better before. And so, I tend to try to just live in that way. And I figure if there's some information that I need to have about it, it will come to me in a form that will make sense to me and not come to me in a way that makes me think this is stupid and seems like a racket. [Speaker 3] (59:00 - 59:29) Yeah, I completely hear you on that, man. Like, I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. So, for me, there was very fixed ideas about everything that's to happen in terms of death, in terms of the earth becoming a paradise, in terms of where you end up, if you're good or if you're bad. It's a horrible place to live in. That's the real hell. It's like thinking there's these fixed ideas of everything that's going to happen after this human experience. So, yeah, I hear you. [Speaker 2] (59:31 - 1:00:03) I just want to piggyback on that. For me, it's like I think about what happens, but it doesn't really – I think with my dad passing, I'm more curious. But it's the scene that the actor at the end of Gladiator says, what he says to Russell Crowe's character who had just passed. He goes, I'll see you again, my friend, but not yet. I'm not like, cool, it's going to happen. And I think about it, but I don't care that much. You know what I mean? When it happens, it happens. And let's have that experience and be hopefully as present as I can be with it. [Speaker 3] (1:00:03 - 1:00:40) Yeah. And also, there is a certain amount of evidence that has been collated and collected that can hint to some kind of picture or form as to what it might be. I think about Michael Newton's Journey of the Souls with his collection of all these experiences with his clients. There's other people. Brendan Murphy's been on the podcast. He's done great work in this area as well. But to get so clingy and attached and start building a concrete, imaginative idea of what that might be, I think is a slippery slope, personally. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:00:41 - 1:02:02) It's interesting too, because there's a number of people that were very close to me that have passed away. And I look at how I think about them and how I talk about them. And I quote them a lot. And I'll quote, not profound insights, but just funny ways that they'd say just daily life stuff. And I think, gosh, that's so interesting, because I feel their presence. But it's like, in a sense, they're in my head. And it's kind of like even when they were alive, a lot of my interactions with them occurred within my own mind. Do you know what I mean? Because for most of the time, I wasn't with them. And so there is this kind of strange, and I don't know if everyone does, I ask Melissa sometimes, do you think that we, because we kind of jokingly quote your grandfather, we quote my grandfathers, we do these different things. And sometimes just non sequitur, we'll just say one of the funny things, whatever you want to call it, we'll just kind of do these different things. And I just am kind of like, is that them? In some meaningful sense, there's an information network, right? There's an awareness of them that's here now. And I was also like, is that honoring them? Is that what we're doing? Because I feel like our family wouldn't think that it is. But I'm like, if you think about it, we're thinking about that person in a joyful way, in a lighthearted way, not like in a crusty sort of unpleasant, let's go see grandpa at the funeral. We're like joking around, having a good time and using them for that purpose. And it's like, that kind of feels like something that's intimate in a strange way. But that's the point of ostentation. [Speaker 3] (1:02:02 - 1:02:24) It feels like a much more authentic form of honoring someone where it's in the natural flow. And there's a genuine joy in recurring this euphemism or something they said, or whatever it might be. To me, that's real. It's not like, I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but let's go specifically out of a way to do something because it feels like we should tick a box. [Speaker 1] (1:02:25 - 1:03:05) Something that's very serious, right? I feel that I'm enjoying, it's enjoyment. The memory is associated with enjoyment. And that's like, when it comes to teaching stuff, it's like, do I insist that the things I say and do that are most helpful to people, that there are things that I'm like this and I'm handing it down? Or can I say something inappropriate or self-deprecating or use an analogy maybe that's kind of gross, but that really drives the point home in a way they never forget. Am I comfortable helping someone in that way? In a way that's the opposite of self-aggrandizing. And it's like, if I think about it, yeah. Yeah. Because pretty much the outcome is really what I'd want to have. And I'd rather be impactful than impressive, I guess, if that makes sense. [Speaker 2] (1:03:06 - 1:03:32) I mean, humor is a way to get truth through. I mean, look at the greatest comedians. They say shit that gets accepted because it comes through the lens of humor, as opposed to like, I'm going to sit in my soapbox and be serious and tell you about something and give you a speech. It's like, you know, so I think humor is something that, I don't know, man, I mean, I love it. I think it's important. I think people receive things in a different way when it comes through that lens than it is just serious. [Speaker 3] (1:03:33 - 1:03:58) I mean, with the masses, particularly like the context matters. Like if I'm going to a comedy show, I know I'm in a position where I can laugh and things can be made light of, et cetera, et cetera. And so, someone can say something really hard hitting and truthful in a comedic way, but I give myself permission to laugh because I'm in this setting. Whereas if I heard someone else express this in a comedic way in a different setting, I'd be outraged, you know, that this was coming through. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:03:58 - 1:04:02) Yeah. I guess it depends. Yeah. It depends on what's being said. But yeah, I hear what you're saying. [Speaker 1] (1:04:02 - 1:04:57) Yeah. You see that in parents' relationship with children too sometimes. I mean, at least when I was growing up was that there seemed to be a somewhat arbitrary internal process by which the parents decide whether or not the child's behavior was humorous or terrible? What's the value of this inappropriate behavior? The child just said something disrespectful, but it was real clever. They got a jab at it. And it's kind of like, are they going to get in trouble or are we just going to laugh and appreciate it? And this happened with going to church. I remember I would watch my parents go through this kind of deliberation process. And it's kind of like, you know, is it going to be maybe okay if we just kind of stay home and just hang out? Or is this like, no, no, no, we got to go. We got to go. And I always got the sense that it was kind of like a roulette wheel, that it wasn't, that there wasn't anything objective that was influencing that process, that it really was like plinko on the prices, right? Are we going to land in, listen, we got to be serious and do this, or we're going to lighten up and be real. So that's always kind of an interesting. [Speaker 2] (1:04:57 - 1:05:08) I loved the prices. Right. Growing up, man, I used to sit down like whatever time it was on 11 o'clock East coast time or whatever during the day. I can't remember and watch like Bob Barker. I love those games, man. It's so much fun. [Speaker 1] (1:05:09 - 1:05:09) It was hypnotic. [Speaker 2] (1:05:09 - 1:05:15) And that little tiny microphone. Yeah. Yeah. It was wild. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:05:16 - 1:05:34) I think in terms of what you're speaking to with parenthood, like the thing is the parents don't actually know what the right response is, whether I should laugh, whether I should, you know, discipline, whatever it might be. But I think the reality is, there are multiple responses that are coming up in this situation. And so. Yeah. It's going to be real, right? [Speaker 2] (1:05:35 - 1:05:45) Yeah. Also, if it's like authentically funny, like the authentic response, I just think would be to laugh. I don't know. Like, I don't know. I'm not a parent, so I wouldn't I wouldn't know. [Speaker 1] (1:05:46 - 1:05:48) I imagine that you could laugh and also punish them if that was a. [Speaker 2] (1:05:48 - 1:05:48) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:05:48 - 1:06:58) Yeah. What you did is really funny, you know, and I'm a human being and I recognize it's funny and I'm a parent. I love you. I'm also a parent and trying to teach a certain thing. So and, you know, acknowledge the the inherent ambiguity. Right. And I think that's one of those things, too, is that like you give I would think that you would give a child permission to acknowledge that ambiguity as well. And, you know, and perhaps to, you know, embody a degree of inconsistency in this moment that there seem to be two apparently conflicting responses, but they both seem to be required. And so I'm going to do that. There you go. Some vulnerability right there. I'm going to do both of these things, even though it kind of gives you a basis for criticizing me. And I'll go, you know what, I've got no defense for that. I can't tell you why. I think what I think it's funny, but I also think maybe some sort of consequence is appropriate. And you'll find that that happens in life sometimes, you know. And so I think that just that that that open ended willingness to be spontaneous. And I think probably, too, there's a certain amount of trust in yourself and also trust in other, you know, outside stuff that, you know, I'm going to be honest and see what happens, a certain curiosity. And then if it's desirable, great. If it's not desirable, well, I'm going to trust that I'm going to respond to that in some way that's useful. And if I don't, well, you know, somewhere on down the line, it'll work out. [Speaker 3] (1:06:59 - 1:06:59) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:06:59 - 1:07:00) I'll just be less honest than lying next time. [Speaker 3] (1:07:00 - 1:07:02) Hopefully that will lead to the desirable outcome. [Speaker 2] (1:07:05 - 1:07:09) Even I think you could totally start like a- So what happens for homeschooling? [Speaker 3] (1:07:09 - 1:07:21) So, yeah. What happens for you when, you know, you, I guess, respond truthfully and it leads to an undesirable outcome? How does that affect your heuristics next time you answer a situation? [Speaker 1] (1:07:22 - 1:08:50) I guess it depends on what it is. You know, if it's like with Melissa, she's important to me. The dynamics, the dynamics in our relationship are important to me because it seems very likely to me that those dynamics will repeat. I mean, simply because we're together all the time and that happened and likely will be for a while. Right. And so it's worth making the effort to then figure out why. Why was it that I told the truth and then there was a negative response, which is different than saying, why did telling the truth get a negative response? Because maybe it wasn't the truth telling that got the response. Maybe it was something else, something native to her, something about the manner in which I express myself, whatever. So what specifically caused that to follow this? Do you know what I'm saying? And ironing that out, if it's like friends or family members, sometimes I'm just kind of like, well, I'm just not going to bring this stuff up with them. And I have no problem with that. I don't have this need. I feel like I have to be able to tell everything to everybody all the time. I just don't feel that way. I think that, I think not only expressing opinions, just as a matter of personal freedom, not only should expressing opinions be optional. I think even the holding of an opinion should be optional. And I've done kind of considerable work and internal experimentation to really kind of bring that into being for me so that I have the ability to deliberately not have an opinion about another person's life choices, because it feels as if it keeps me flexible, it keeps me free. I don't have to bring that opinion into interactions with that person. So it really is context. [Speaker 2] (1:08:50 - 1:09:37) It's just, yeah, it's just discerning. When is the time to say something? When's the time to, how to say something too? I mean, you can say truth, but what part of you is saying the truth, you know, that's going to often trigger another person. But I mean, like, I don't know. I see the relationship, see what I want to get out of it, especially with my parents. Like I'm not going to comment and point out every single thing that I disagree with, with my parents, because it's like, I'm just there to enjoy them when I spend time with them and like have some fun and laugh and eat some amazing Greek food. And I don't need to like comment on like my mom's levels of consciousness and point out every error. It's just like, and the same thing with certain friends of mine, like there's a time and a place, you know, like I'm sure when we hang out and play games, you can make fun of me like, you know, 10 hours a day, but you're like, you know what, I'm not going to point that out. I'm not going to point that out. Let's just enjoy the games. [Speaker 1] (1:09:38 - 1:11:44) I point it out. I mean, I point it out, but we have fun with it. We make fun of each other constantly, you know, and it's fun to point out things that aren't true. It's fun to accuse you of doing things that you haven't done because like, you know, that's like, it's fun. And that's it. Like with your mother, it's like, if your mother were, I don't know what you call it, perfectly evolved or more evolved or whatever, she would lose a lot of what makes her wonderful to be around. Because I don't necessarily think that those things, and that's one of the, you know, I don't necessarily think those things are totally compatible. Like the things that make a person wonderful and that person being 10 times more aware, like I want a person to be as aware as they need to be in order to solve problems they want to solve. I don't necessarily say, listen, you've got to be as aware as you can possibly become. I just don't have that attitude personally. And I find it refreshing at times to interact with people who have not given tons of thought to themselves and their mind and how it works. Assuming that their mind is not sort of chock full of stuff that doesn't work. People who just kind of run on autopilot, but their autopilots are, you know, fairly functional. It's sometimes fun to interact with people who are like that. Sometimes there's a, I don't know what it is, a looseness and a lightness and a relaxation. I mean, it's kind of like if you were a kid and you ever went over to someone's house and there was a house that was run like a military encampment and it was maybe spotless and clean, but there's a, there's kind of a sternness to it. And then you go to someone else's house and it's, you know, hygienic and it's nice and taken care of, but there's a much more kind of relaxed attitude. And it's kind of like, gosh, a little bit of dust on the windowsill is not so bad. It's like, there's just a warm wholesomeness here. And I kind of think of the mind in a similar way. It's kind of like, I'm really concerned about how it feels to be me. I'm concerned about what it feels like to interact with other people. And if it feels really unpleasant, right, I don't want to do it, you know, and, and, but I don't need it to be perfect. And that's the idea of what, if you were perfect, you'd be an absolute war to be around. I mean, like you were in perfections or what kind of, you know, I mean, a lot of the value you bring to the table, I think is in your imperfection viewed from that personal growth perspective and your willingness to be that way. And so it's kind of like, you know, sometimes there's, sometimes there's unquantifiable value and the things you haven't gotten right. [Speaker 3] (1:11:44 - 1:11:49) Do you want to be specific about your asthma as imperfections that you feel bring the value to the table? [Speaker 1] (1:11:49 - 1:11:53) Oh yeah. Well, yeah. So for example, so where's that? I got this list here somewhere, you know. [Speaker 3] (1:11:53 - 1:11:54) Oh my God. [Speaker 1] (1:11:59 - 1:12:03) Well, and he does this beautiful thing and I'll talk about it. Can I talk about you for a second? I don't care, man. [Speaker 2] (1:12:03 - 1:12:06) I'm open. I know I'm not perfect, whatever the fuck that means. [Speaker 1] (1:12:06 - 1:12:58) He does this beautiful thing where he'll violate a principle, like taking responsibility, like it's his fault we lost the game. And he will do this thing where he will not accept responsibility for having lost the game. And he is playing, but he is serious, and he is playing, and he is serious all at the same time. And so it's totally impossible. I cannot point at him and say, you are doing this wrong thing because I am as wrong as I am right in that situation. And so he's got this amazing ability to play it and be serious all at the same time. You know what I mean? But I think that when it counts though, to be honest, one of the things I love about you is your willingness to be neurotically fixated on minor things that bother you. I find that to be a good thing in my life. It enriches it. It galvanizes me and gives me some energy. So there's a lot of, what's that called? Codependence? Is that what that is? When two people like each other because they have the same issues? [Speaker 2] (1:12:58 - 1:13:02) Yeah, maybe. I'm not sure. I appreciate you. [Speaker 1] (1:13:03 - 1:13:08) No, no, no. The term I'm thinking of is narcissistic circle jerk. That's not codependence. It's funny. [Speaker 2] (1:13:08 - 1:13:12) I was going to use the term circle jerk before, but I didn't. So I'm happy that you brought it back. See? There you go. [Speaker 3] (1:13:15 - 1:13:15) Nice. [Speaker 2] (1:13:19 - 1:13:21) Tell me more about me. Tell me more about me, please. [Speaker 3] (1:13:27 - 1:13:34) So this is interesting. This is interesting for a podcast. There's nothing specific that we want to talk about. [Speaker 2] (1:13:35 - 1:13:42) What are we going to title this episode? Contemplation with Steven Robinstone. It's like, yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:13:42 - 1:13:51) The podcaster needs to fill the gap, needs to fill in the silence with something that feels like I have a grasp and control and direction of where we're going. [Speaker 2] (1:13:51 - 1:13:52) But you know what's interesting? [Speaker 3] (1:13:53 - 1:13:56) It's okay if the listener just hears me yawn for a second, maybe. [Speaker 2] (1:13:56 - 1:14:29) Yeah. And a lot of other podcasts out there, you know, that maybe aren't as deep, like they're just people hanging out, having random conversations. You know, we tend to have a certain model or we have a guest on that's into something. But like, again, when we have people that have been on multiple times or people that we know more personally, it's just a conversation. We actually get feedback sometimes. Like, oh, I just love, like, I love you three as individuals. It's just fun seeing the three of you guys hang out and have a conversation, which I think a lot of shows out there, people watch because they just like seeing certain people have dialogues and conversations about, you know, life. [Speaker 3] (1:14:29 - 1:14:38) Well, it's like just being, it's like just being like in the room, you know, three people hanging out, having a lot of conversation that can also, I guess, you know, touch on some deep stuff. [Speaker 2] (1:14:41 - 1:14:45) I can't wait to be an ethical cult leader. So to continue that, it's going to be great. [Speaker 1] (1:14:46 - 1:17:13) The thing is, too, you got to really emphasize how ethical you are, because if you don't talk about it constantly, then people won't know. And so it's like that, and also I want to talk about integrity a bunch too. Like not talking about the issue and describing why it's important and here's some issues with it, but actually just use the word a lot. You know what I mean? What are you really excited about in life right now? That's a good question. Well, I'm pretty excited about the kettlebell exercises I'm doing here lately. It's kind of a, and I know that seems silly, but it's actually a pretty big life journey. So I got into kettlebells like in like 2006, but it was the kind of the Americanized version of it, which is sort of heavily marketing influenced. And the style I'm doing now is actually the original, it's the Russian, it's a strength endurance sport where you do it for set intervals of time. And so it just feels really fun to be working on that. It's kind of a mental challenge. It's different physically than just lifting weights because you're doing it for like long time and you're trying to build up your stamina and stuff like that. So I'm excited about that. We're contemplating a move. You know, we might be going somewhere a little bit less dry and hot. That's very exciting to me. We're checking out the Oregon coast. It's magnificent. Awareness school's going well. We're thinking about restructuring our business and just kind of changing up the offering some, which is fun. Yeah. There's a lot, there's a lot of fun stuff about the cows and all that stuff. That's a lot of fun. Really just enjoyment of daily life is a big thing lately. And the farm animals help with that a bunch. There's a rhythm to it where you get up and you go, Melissa does most of the chores and stuff, but like you get up and they're there and you speak to them and interact with them. That's fun. I think I'm learning how to cut through the nonsense and working with people. I'm pretty excited about that. Everywhere in a school that we do, it's a little bit more to the point. The one-on-one work I'm doing with people lately, it's just kind of like, I don't know, I don't, I just, I don't, in a sense, I don't care anymore in a way that's immensely liberating. And it's just like, all right, cut the shit. What's going on with you? And now let me tell you some things I think will help. And it's like, I love what it feels like to interact with people in that capacity. And it's really great when people feel, I've had multiple people say to me, I haven't understood very much of what you've said, but I feel so much better after talking to you. That's it. That's exactly it. Cause it's a non-intellectual apprehension of the key elements. [Speaker 3] (1:17:15 - 1:17:24) I think that's definitely how many of our listeners feel as well. No, having not understood much of what you said. [Speaker 1] (1:17:24 - 1:17:27) Oh, yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:17:30 - 1:18:06) I hear you about the day to day, man. Like I'm finding beauty and gratitude in the simple things is something I want to just keep focusing on. And then I think the more you have animals too, like it does bring that, like, there's this like love and presence and simplicity that's around you all the time that you get to tap into that I think is really beautiful that I'm, I'm enjoying for sure. I don't have cows, like even just having new, new kittens, new, new kittens. And we're thinking about getting like a, a guard dog, like a, like a Ackbash or like a Great Pyrenees to like protect the cats. And maybe like if we get more animals, so it's, it's exciting. [Speaker 1] (1:18:07 - 1:19:43) Yeah. There's a certain, there's a certain profundity that comes with contemplating the fact that like that cow is a cow 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And I know that's a weird thing to say, but when you live around one and it's like, you know, it's kind of an animal, it's kind of a pet. That's almost like a decoration, you know, and you interact with her here and there and all this stuff. But sometimes I'll just think, I'm not thinking about her right now. She's out there. She's cowing. She's cowing. She's just, she's just doing like, like, and when I'm asleep and when we go on vacation and when we're, we'll go to town and all that different stuff, cow 24 seven. And I will say that there is something about going out as a little nighttime bedtime ritual. So they lay down and into this massive beast is just laying down. And it's a fascinating way, the way that it's like a big helicopter landing and she'll lay there and she's chewing her cud and you walk over to her and when they trust you, they don't stand up. They just keep laying down and you can kind of sit down or squat down next to her and just touch this massive body. And there's this, I mean, Melissa calls it living leather, which I guess maybe is a little macabre, but there is like this smell of life. It's not like a, it's not like a strong animal smell. It's just like, and she'll start going and she'll do these like deep grunts, like it was like just very comfortable. And I feel like there's an energy field, especially with the two cows. And it's almost like you kind of start vibing with whatever that energy field is. And it's a, it's a weird kind of meditation. These huge eyes, this enormous head that you can just, you can just touch it and scratch sort of under her chin and stuff like that. And she just, and I kind of just start kind of swaying. It's like this weird, like it's nighttime. It's so quiet out here. It's so dark. And there's just this massive animal chilling. And it's like, God, this is like, I want to be as good at being me as, as a buttercup is it being a cow, if that makes sense. [Speaker 2] (1:19:43 - 1:19:47) Yeah. Yeah. Humaning is, is a little bit more complex than cowing. [Speaker 1] (1:19:47 - 1:20:29) You know, we make it that way or we make it feel that way anyway. But when you're out there with that cow, it's like there, there's an isness there and an ease to the isness that I think must be replicable at the level of human, of human living. And, and it's like, these are, these are, I understand why people worship cows, I guess. I understand why cows hold a position of reference and like the Hindu religion, if I'm not mistaken. Right. Because it's weird, you know, and they're funny and they play in all this different stuff, but they have this meditative and the fact that they're the ruminant, the fact that they eat grass and they, and they process that grass. I mean, it's a miracle to me that an animal that size can derive its nutrition from, from grass. That's weird. [Speaker 4] (1:20:31 - 1:20:31) I know. [Speaker 1] (1:20:35 - 1:21:36) It's like stuff like that for me is really important because I'm, as you know, I tend to think a lot, you know, and, and I like to contrast that with a little bit of just raw appreciation of the peculiarity of reality, which is just to go out there and look at this thing and look at and observe what it feels like for me as a human being to look at this cow and touch this cow and like interface with this thing. And it's like, it's a strange, and it's a wonderful experience to be a human being next to this cow and just to interact with her and just be kind of like, there you are. And sometimes she'll come up and knock you. She's knocked me in the face and like almost broken my nose so many different times. It's not like all love and light constantly. Sometimes she's an absolute brat. Sometimes she's a jerk sometimes, but you know, that's just part of it. You know what I'm saying? Like she's not playing a role as some kind of like spiritual avatar. It's like, she's a cow and she'll run you over. She's knocked my grandma down. One time she jumped up on her shoulders, you know, but at the same time you sit next to her and you're just kind of like, man, I'm, I'm, I'm involuntarily zinning out in this moment in a way that's really fascinating. [Speaker 3] (1:21:38 - 1:22:15) I love that, man. I mean, like I feel what you're saying, you know, and I mean, we all carry a certain energy field right now. So maybe there is just something that's like meditative and healing and brings out a different aspect in you in being around her, like more of that beingness more in that just resting in this experience. And I think we need that. We need that return to simplicity on some level for sure, because life is getting more complex, you know, stresses heap up and, you know, whether it's necessary to stress about all the things that most people stress about, it's probably not. But I think, you know, a presence and relationship like that is very much so, you know, healthy for sure. [Speaker 1] (1:22:16 - 1:23:16) Yeah. Yeah. There's a seamless segue between very different emotional states so that she'll be angry at you and pissed off and just an absolute jerk, knock the hay out of your hands or try to hit you because you haven't paid enough attention to her or whatever. And then and then all affection. And it reminds me a little bit of like very young children. It's the same as a kid. It's the same as a kid. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like there's something I mean, obviously, emotional regulation is useful. But I think that there is a certain smoothness of that. And I think it's a willingness to accept sudden and complete changes in mind or feeling because you don't have an image of yourself. And so you don't say, oh, my gosh, I don't want to seem like a wacko. So I don't want to go from totally angry to totally happy. So what I'll do is I'll be a 45 minute cooling off period where I'm kind of nice to my spouse, but also prickly. And it's like, well, that seems that seems like weird PR management. Like what if the moment that you stop being mad, you said, I don't feel angry anymore. And we could also talk about it and discuss it. But you also weren't embarrassed about the reality of your emotional process, if that makes sense. Yeah, man, totally. [Speaker 3] (1:23:17 - 1:23:37) Yeah. Very often, I think like we can be like more clingy about experiences and about shifting between states and experiences where, you know, for children, definitely. And I think, you know, for most animals, that's just not there. You know, it's like, alright, it's past. I feel comfortable to shift. Right. Not even give it a second thought. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:23:37 - 1:23:38) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:23:40 - 1:23:53) Cool, man. Stephen, thanks so much for joining us once again. Episode three is in the books. Just let people know, man, I guess what's going on for you at the moment, how they can get in contact, what you're offering and stuff like that. [Speaker 1] (1:23:53 - 1:24:34) I'm on Instagram. Obviously, Melissa's on Instagram. We have everybetterlifeuniversity.com. We do Awareness School, which is a 10 week coaching program that goes along with this course that we put together. We actually just started a class of that. So the next one of those will probably be, gosh, I don't know, it'll be a while. It'll be at least 13 or 14 weeks. I do one on one coaching that people typically take Awareness School first and then do one on one work with me. Occasionally, someone will do that. Usually, after listening to me talk to somebody like this, you know, a person has a pretty good idea about whether or not the kind of work we do is for them. Yeah, that's pretty much it. You know, it's just a bunch of information offerings and a little bit of extra guidance for implementing that stuff if that's what you're interested in. [Speaker 2] (1:24:36 - 1:24:42) Love it, man. Love you. Grateful for you. Thanks for coming on again. I can't wait for the next time. [Speaker 3] (1:24:42 - 1:24:46) Yeah. Thanks for having me. Thanks, everyone else for listening. Take care.