Ben Joseph Stewart Conspiracy, Magic & Technology

[Speaker 3] (0:00 - 1:13) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Erasmus Stelionesis. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to Here for the Truth. Sorry we had a week break there. Our last week's guest, Kyle Dake, he had a newborn son on the day we were meant to interview him, so we've postponed that slightly. But we're back today with an incredible guest, Ben Joseph Stewart. This is a conversation you'll want to warm your minds up for, because we go and venture down a number of rabbit holes and also a number of predictions of what the future might hold and the nature of magic itself. Before we get to that, guys, applications for Rise Above the Herd, our eight-week private group training program, are now closed, all spots are filled, and we're so excited to embark on this journey with the participants of that group. All our episodes, obviously, are hereforthetruth.com. Be sure to subscribe to stay up to date with our latest episodes. Our Telegram community is growing. We're on Telegram. It's at areyouhereforthetruth. We'll put those links in the show notes as well so you can find us and access us easily. Anything you need to add to that, bro? [Speaker 2] (1:14 - 1:22) Just if you want to download our free ebook, it's at growyourselfesteem.com. Check it out. It's 55 Signs of Low Self-Esteem for Truth Seekers. Yeah, man. [Speaker 3] (1:23 - 2:26) Good point. Absolutely. Guys, please enjoy this episode. All right, everybody, welcome to Episode 62 of Here for the Truth Podcast. We have an incredible guest for you today, Ben Joseph Stewart. Ben is a filmmaker and musician. He has a style for the conscious community. Before his touring rock group, Hyrosonic, disbanded, Ben had already launched his third full-length documentary with global viral attention. His feature documentary, Kymatica, won Best Scientific Film at the 2009 New York Independent Film Festival. After producing the Psychedelica and Limitless series at Gaia, Ben went on to produce the Magic Plant film on cannabis and hemp, which has been picked up by Gravitas. The viral internet film, DMT Quest, launched shortly after and was shared by Joe Rogan, Graham Hancock, Alex Gray, and the Beckley Institute. Ben then launched Aubrey Marcus' Awake in the Darkness film, which is slated to hit the 2022 film festival market. Ben, thank you so much for being here for the truth. [Speaker 1] (2:26 - 2:30) Yeah, brother. This is really awesome to be here. Thank you for having me. [Speaker 3] (2:30 - 2:49) Absolute pleasure, man. Obviously, you're an incredibly creative being. You've created so much. What really led you down that path? And I guess what led you to blend the worlds of waking up in a reality that might not be what most people think it is? Plus, you mean offering your creative input into that as well? [Speaker 1] (2:51 - 7:27) Yeah, well, what kind of led me... I've always been artistic. So I was an army brat, traveling the world nonstop. I was living in... So I was born in Tacoma, then Georgia, then Alabama, then a little bit of Florida, then Hawaii, then Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands. And basically, I had just gotten used to consistently reinventing myself, going to new schools. I was into sports a lot, definitely still into a lot of movement. But after a loss of a friend that happened right at the same time that I broke my ankle in football, I just kind of took a hard left turn into music. My brother got into guitar. I started playing with drums. And then I really started just delving into every kind of instrument, getting into songwriting, composing that kind of stuff on the computer. And then I started getting into bands in high school. I had this one freak out moment where I was thinking, well, shit, if I'm an artist, I need to keep making art that people like. Otherwise, I'm going to end up in a cardboard box. So I freaked out and I enlisted in the Air Force. And I instantly wanted out. I wanted to take back. But my dad was just like, you took an oath, and we're stewards. We have too much pride to break our oaths. So do it. So I did it. But in that time, I was in the military. My band, the band that I got into right after tech school, after basic training, is called Hyersonic. And you spoke about it there. And we instantly got landed a spot on Lollapalooza with Jane's Addiction, Audio Slave, A Perfect Circle, Incubus, Jurassic Five, 30 Seconds to Mars, Kings of Leon. It was incredible. And then so I still had five years left of the military. So I was kind of like bound to some of the military credos. Like you don't talk about politics in public. It doesn't matter if you're in civilian clothes, you represent the military. So I was definitely talking about stuff that was going on in the world, but I couldn't get specific yet. And then I got out of the military. And as people were asking me what my lyrics were about and what the music was about, I decided I was going to make a film instead that explains the message of it. My plan was a 15 minute film talking about the band turned into a two hour film having nothing to do with the band whatsoever. And it was a lot of things that would by today's standards be called conspiracy. Well, by those, you know, in those days, far more so. But it had a spiritual twist, like a, how should I say it, a twist ending that was a lot more empowering than disempowering. And that just went viral. And I never expected to go off into making films. I always wanted to make it in music, but my music skills helped me become a filmmaker. My favorite part of filmmaking is actually a soundtrack, because it's like the subconscious, it moves you in ways that the topic and the visuals don't. So, so then, you know, basically that that led into the career that I have today. And because I started making those films, I started having people, you know, fly me all over the world doing talks, plant medicine in the Amazon in different parts of the world. And I just started meeting the community that was turned on by my films. And I guess I'll just end like this. I mean, I made these films, and it was really turning people on. But I needed them and their feedback to like feedback to me, certain things, places where I was kind of like off either in the intention or in the details. And so I felt like it was the school of life once I started making films about topics that are like, hey, this is a different way to look at the world and also your potential. People took it very seriously. So I got a lot of feedback. And that also kept me honest. I was in a band, I was a lead singer, I was, you know, definitely a good person. I was trying to better my life. But once I started making films about consciousness, I started getting people nonstop, like, I guess, just keeping me humble, if you will, like calling me out on the smallest little things. And that was like, hard knock school, but it definitely got me on this path where I realized, I'm not here to do any one specific kind of art. I'm here to deliver my gift to the world. And that can come through many different mediums. And right now it's by being too stressed out over having three kids, two of them in diapers. [Speaker 3] (7:30 - 7:40) That's incredible, man. I can relate to that. I got two myself, both still in diapers, one coming out. I have a eight year old puppy. [Speaker 2] (7:43 - 7:45) I'm sorry to hear that. [Speaker 1] (7:45 - 7:45) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (7:47 - 8:24) I actually wanted to ask real quick, because you brought up a cool point about, you know, creating these films around conspiracy that, you know, the ending was more of like something that's empowering. I think for many of us that like, that are in this, let's say truth movement, or go down these rabbit holes, we see a lot of people that get stuck on the negativity and like, like have this state of nihilism and like, oh, we're fucking doomed and all these people out there and what they're doing. Like, can you talk a little bit about that? Like, you know, you know why that is and why people get stuck in that and how, you know, so important to be empowered and to control what you can control in your life and do what you can do. [Speaker 1] (8:25 - 14:51) Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good point because it's the easiest and actually it's the most necessary part of getting into conspiracy, that it, it shakes you up to the core. It shakes you to the core. And I don't think there's any way around it. Every single one of us that's gotten into it. I instantly felt inspired. I didn't just feel dread and hopeless when I started learning about conspiracy. It was more curious to me, like, whoa, this explains a lot. This, this explains a lot of things that I explained away in different ways. But I think because I instantly turned it into art, I instantly turned what I was learning into something that I could share with the world. I got set into this feedback loop and this was pre-YouTube. So I mean, the word viral was, was just beginning at that point in terms of like viral video. This was on Google videos. And so the fact that I had started putting my thoughts and my ideas out there, I started getting more people connecting with me, basically showing me like, Hey, have you read this? Or you really got to check this person out. So I was, now I was like in school. I had people sending me homework and I was learning about it. And usually a lot of it were videos and lectures. And I went through thousands of hours of lectures, but I was super hungry. And I can sense that a lot of people, when they learn about these things, there's two ways that you can do it. Like you can learn about these things and then you can, it's kind of like hiding your head in the sand, but you can kind of just be like, you know what? I don't know if I buy it because I feel safe. Right. I look around and in 2008, 2009, like I don't see any, like sky's not falling chicken little, you know, it seems fine to me. And, um, a lot of people, they just, they choose not to own it as true. Right. So they're just like, yeah, that's good research, but I don't know if I buy it. And there's other people that they own it. So they swallow the pill, but kind of like with plant medicines, you can take a plant medicine and then it'll start getting really intense. And if you have a little bit of guidance that tells you breathe this, this passes, nobody's ever died doing this. The, the, this is good. What's coming up. You can face what's within you. That's good guidance. But I think that conspiracy has become like a plant medicine for most people. And there's no guidance out there. There's really no shaman out there. That's like, I'm going to, I'm going to wreck your worldview. And it's, it's going to come tumbling down. You're going to question everything. You're going to start thinking things that are true, aren't true because you can't trust the thing, but this is part of the process. This is good. Like, you know, you know, a lot of good can come out of what, what is fading and crumbling right now, but we don't have much of that guidance out there. And I noticed that as soon as I saw Zeitgeist. So I know you guys have seen it. Like the first thing I saw, I noticed was Zeitgeist was this is very well done. It's really good quality for a free internet film. It's not Peter Joseph's faces isn't everywhere. It's just his voice. I almost was like, you know, is this an underground group trying to wake up humanity? It was super beautiful to feel that way because I didn't feel like they wanted my money, my email address, nothing. And then to come to find out, it's just this artist. He was a musician and he was doing these live performances and decided to turn it into a documentary. The only thing that I noticed that was off about it and off as in could use improvement. And that's basically by the end, after he showed you, he broke down your entire worldview. And then he was like, but if you just notice, if you just acknowledge what's happening in the world, the whole thing will crumble like a house of cards. And I just sat there thinking, is that, is that the solution? You know, just, just acknowledge what's happening. Cause I feel like I already acknowledged it and I noticed something was lacking there. And that was proper guidance. Like this isn't here to scare you into being the ostrich, which with your head in the sand, this is here to shake you up out of your comfort zone. So you feel like life is going to be peachy forever and that everything is conspiring for you, but it's not here to scare you. It's like if you, if you turn your head and you notice you're in the street and there's a bus coming at you and the adrenaline floods your system and adrenaline can be shocking. And some would say even traumatizing. What do you, what's the first thing you do? Sit down and talk about your feelings or do you use that adrenaline to get the hell out of dodge? You get out of way, out of the way. That's the purpose of the adrenaline. And I think conspiracy and plant medicines, whatever it is, that's trying to wake you up first has to destroy what's false. So that feeling that people get that scares them away from looking deeper into conspiracy or ever touching plant medicine again. To me, my thoughts are they just didn't hang in there long enough until it got to the beautiful part. So by the time it got, you know, it starts coming down for people, they feel like it's because they started looking away from the truth or they, you know, they waited out the drug and the drug is gone now. And like, I'll never do that again. So they missed all the teachings. It just turned into a boogeyman, not a teacher. That's kind of what I feel has happened in the conspiracy movement for most people. But I can't say I'm alone in this feeling that conspiracy made me far more spiritual. It made me far more interested in who am I, what is human potential and where's my community because I want to meet them. So, I mean, that's the big good thing that I let come out of it. And I realized I'm not alone in that. A lot of people started thinking community. Community is number one. We need to communicate. We need to, you know, you can't eat money, you know, can't eat gold. There are certain things that like, you know, food, you can't trade it to turn on the bills, you know, or to turn on the lights and stuff like that. But with community, there always seems to be some kind of way that you can get through the hardships of life. And I think that's what conspiracy did for me. I hope that answers your question and also like helps people understand that conspiracy isn't just bad. You're not just learning about bad. You're also just learning about self. [Speaker 2] (14:53 - 15:31) Yeah, man, definitely, definitely answered the question. I think we're aligned in that regards as well. And I feel like all the rabbit holes I've gone down have just inspired me and lit me up. And it fueled it like further introspection and further desires to know like, well, who am I and what's going on? What is all this stuff? You know, I love it. And I've met like minded people. And I think over the years by being curious and investigated with these different things, it definitely allowed the last few years to just be, I don't want to say normal, but I had a tribe, I had a community like it was, it was, I was really empowering. [Speaker 1] (15:31 - 16:07) I would love to ask, two things came up into my mind, which was what was your entry point into conspiracy? And then also, what happened with me was, I didn't understand why I went down that rabbit hole until 2020 hit. And then I realized not only is this validating what I researched before, but now I've already gone through the tough part. I'm here to help other people through this portal that they're going through. So I'm curious, what was your entry point? And did 2020 bring more clarity rather than confusion for you? [Speaker 2] (16:07 - 17:55) Yeah, well, I could tell that you're a podcast host as well, because you know how to ask the right questions. No, for me, it was, let's see, I'm 42 years old now. It would probably was shortly after 9-11. For me, but also I had in a previous incarnation, I was an actor as a performer. And my first acting teacher, my first acting mentor, he was like an HIV AIDS activist, and kind of challenging the conventional narrative around that. And so he gave me a book by Dr. Carey Mullis. It was his autobiography called Dancing Naked in the Minefield that I read in 2005. And it really just like, it just like woke me up in a lot of different ways, because he shared so many different perspectives on different subjects. And I kind of went down that rabbit hole. And that kind of led me coming from like seeing the corruption and incestuous relationship between government agencies, the pharmaceutical industry, science, medicine, the establishment. And then I got really into health and wellness. And so it like kind of started there. And then just, there were all these other things I just kept looking into and looking down and connecting the dots. So that was it for me, I would have to say was more coming from that end. And oh, and to answer the second part of your question. Yeah, everything has just made the last few years easier, because I've been sharing things and speaking about certain things. So like the people who like wanted to think I was crazy, or unfollow me, or the friends of mine that were more aligned and curious thinkers and critical thinkers, they were there. And I'm fortunate to have a wife who's also like similar minded. And yeah, just made it a lot easier to have community. And we live in the LA area, we've been building community the last two years, you know, for people who, you know, have been questioning the mainstream narrative. Amazing. [Speaker 3] (17:57 - 18:34) One thing you said, which I really want to want to tap on, and I definitely concur, is that when you go down these rabbit holes, and like you realize that the premise of what you've been taught about reality is for the most part, a lie, well, then you do kind of realize what's being held back from you, right, in terms of human potential. And to me, that is just like, that's a contemplation, which is endless, because truly it is. So what's, can you talk about human potential from your perspective? And what that is? And what's come up for you in contemplating that and discovering that? [Speaker 1] (18:35 - 25:05) Yeah. I think it goes to the core of just asking what is self? You know, I was very, very interested in like, well, like, if I'm being told by all these sources, the number one question that's never answered, but most important to quest after is who am I? And so this idea of self, I read in psychology, I read in mythology, I read in anything new age, any kind of explanation. And the best I could come up with was that even science, these paradoxes in science, they show that there's no one way to prove that there's one fixed concrete external reality that everyone's sharing. Now there's math, you know, and there's certain ways to quantify that, you know, they line up in the language of math. So it seems like everyone shares these things and there's the geometry and the makeup of reality. And there are some fixed principles that seem fixed, but where does self end? And I always sensed that even before I had these thoughts that magic was real, but that Hollywood was maybe not there specifically to make it look unreal, but they share views of it or aspects of it that are just the cool stuff with none of the fundamentals. So I think that magic is a higher science and by understanding ourself, you understand the higher science. And the one way I can point to that externally is through narrative and propaganda and story has always been the way to rile up the masses and to get them to do something. I think we're collectively, I don't think it's just ignorant. I think that when we say that data is important and science, trust the science and those types of things, science is one way to explain what's happening, but it's never complete. It cannot be complete. And we are not as beings hardwired for data or facts. We're hardwired for story. Because if I were to give you three to five data points on one topic, that doesn't make sense to you unless you fill in the blanks and you weave it together somehow. It needs to come together as a holistic organism that you can understand the dimensions of and the behavior of. So when I started realizing that I don't even know where self ends, that also means that you too are part of self. You're just a part of self that I'm coming to discover and understand how we're connected. In what ways is there a communication? I have cells in my body. They're individuated like this, but they communicate. And they're also part of a larger organism. So when I started thinking of human potential, what is human potential? I thought it was very myopic in its view to think that it has to do with running faster, jumping higher, being smarter, being more witty. I always felt that it has something to do with the organism that we're a part of that we can barely understand. Our cells may not understand our human drives. But then in that sense, do we have just one human drive? Or is it the hormones in us that cause us to feel certain ways or the thoughts that have been implanted in us that give us subconscious fears that drive our behavior? So I started just realizing that I don't believe that what I would call self is disconnected from anything out there. But I'm not here to just blow everyone's mind by being a magician that I could just point a stick at and turn somebody into a newt. That's not what my soul incarnated on earth to do. So when I think of human potential, the first thing I think of is, am I listening? Not what do I want to do? What do my desires cause me to want? If I had magic, or if magic was real, or I should say, if magic was available to everyone, if everyone had the keys to that kingdom, a gorilla would ask for the biggest banana in the world. The person who's the most scared by life will just ask for a little bit of peace. We all want magic to work in our life in ways that just helps out the little aspects of ourselves. I began to realize that the only real path of human potential is being in service to community, being in service to others. So that's why I do my art. That's why I make music. And if it feels good for me, usually it's going to feel good for other people. So I'm allowed to celebrate in the beauty of the art, but it's not for me. If I hold on to it, that blessing becomes a curse. So I guess to answer your question, human potential for me is still, there's a big old question mark on that. What is it? I'm still exploring that territory. And the only way to explore that territory is for me to start deconstructing the obstacles that I've placed in my own way, that are like mirrors telling me, no, you're this and you're only this. So don't look behind. You're none of those things. And when you deconstruct that, it can be scary to realize that, oh man, I'm responsible for everyone I ever hurt. I'm responsible for all the harm that I could have neutralized, but I didn't even realize harm was being had. And that's, I think why people disconnect themselves from their real potential is because the same thing with ayahuasca. First, you need to go through that catabolic deconstruction phase where you realize that, yes, I've always been a magician, but I've been an immature magician and I've created a lot of pain and trauma. So you have to own that. You have to swallow that jagged pill, if you will. And so that's human potential for me. And I'm still playing in that territory. And I find that music and art are probably, and family and community are the best ways to get in touch with my own potential is by collaboratively seeking collective potential. [Speaker 3] (25:07 - 25:20) Beautifully said, man. So what is magic to you? If someone was to ask Ben, what is magic? [Speaker 1] (25:21 - 27:23) What is that? Magic is a term for a higher science that we haven't either built language around or developed a concept or a model to point towards. So magic today is different than what magic was maybe a thousand years ago. And I mean, I could show you my phone and all the amazing things that my phone could do 200 years ago, or even 50 years ago to some untouched tribes in the Amazon. They would look at that as magic. And we would be like, no, silly, that's just science. But at the end of the day, magic is a high science. Magic is the realm of reality that we haven't built conceivability around yet. So we haven't peered into that territory of reality. So I mean, I can't put it in any less vague terms, unfortunately, because I would have to conceive of the unconceivable for that. But what we can do with technology today would be considered magic, truly, by definition, magic in previous generations. What we would consider magic today is something that maybe in 50 to 100 years, hopefully not just with externalized outsourced technology, but also with this beautiful instrument that we have, the human body, the mind, which we still scarcely understand. I would say magic is understanding that self does not stop at your skin. And propaganda understands it. How do you influence people you've never met, people across the globe? Well, if you can somehow get gadgets and stories in their house and in their ears on a consistent enough basis, that could be considered magic. So that would probably be my best explanation of magic. And in that specific respect, I totally believe in magic. [Speaker 2] (27:23 - 28:57) Yeah. I like that you mentioned the idea of how untouched tribes would look at this. And it reminded me of a story. I took a year off and backpacked around the globe in 2008. And I was in Peru and I was hiking along the... I did the Machu Picchu Inca Trail. Nice. And we had amazing, lovely local native porters who were supporting us and carrying our stuff. And that was the year where the first Kindle ever came out. And I had a friend, I wasn't going to get it, a friend of mine who was this English professor into literature. He was the last person I would think to recommend that I get it because he's like, I love the way books feel in my hand. But he was like, no, man, it's great for traveling. So I said, you know what? Let me get this. I downloaded like 40 books in there before I went on my trip. And I remember one of the days we hiked up to a place to stop, the porters set things up for lunch. And I'm sitting against a rock and I have the first generation Kindle in my hand. And three of the guys come behind me, almost like they were lurking behind me with these eyes. Like, what is in your hands? Like, what the fuck is that? And I was like, es un libro electronico, you know, bro, it was like, mind's blown, you know? So it's just, I don't know. That just made me think of that story. Like, it's true. You know, it's like, we are here now, 2022. What will 2050 be like, you know? It's wild. You know, it's interesting. [Speaker 1] (28:57 - 30:16) I just have to say, because you mentioned it, this is ipadu. I don't sell this stuff. So I'm just showing you. It's coca leaves. Okay. Oh, yeah. It's from the Andes. I was chewing on some coca leaves during my trip. You have to, you have to if you don't want that headache. And what's interesting is when talking about magic, why when you look into old accounts of magic, are there always plants? And usually the plants have some kind of mind altering substance in them. Because magic also has to do with perception. And this is what I was getting at earlier. It's like, what, you know, what is self? Where does self end? And is there one concrete, scientifically explainable, fixed reality that we all connect to that we're all just dumb, and we're trying to figure out that one reality? Or does perception and what you allow yourself to believe also influence others? And I guess the reason why I'm saying that with like plant medicines is all ancient magic had some use of plants. So then people today would go back and say, oh, so they're all just tripping and there's no such thing as magic. And it's like, no, a lot of those like how, um, Cary Mullis actually said he had done LSD. [Speaker 2] (30:16 - 30:16) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (30:17 - 34:04) Right. The inventors are not the inventors, the, um, uh, I'm forgetting, uh, Francis and Crick with the DNA. LSD, Steve Jobs, LSD, this is tech, you know, Timothy Leary, um, by the end of his career, same with Terence McKenna, we're talking more about, um, technology, advanced technology than they were about psychedelics. Also Silicon Valley is, is literally on the graveyard of the Haight-Ashbury type of area, right? It's, it's in that, you know, hippie central of San Fran. So there's, there's definitely a connection there. And I feel like there's a lot of people who say technology is the devil, technology is the antichrist. And to me, I just have this feeling that the antichrist and the devil, these are also terms like magic is a term that is, is reality that lies beyond conceivability. And, you know, the devil and the antichrist are that, which we say is like, it's, it's wrong. It doesn't belong. It's wrong. And it doesn't belong. But if you think of the Bodhisattvas and you think of like wise sages, they don't see anything, even the darkest of reality as not belonging. Right. And so I've said, if you want to use the term God, you know, God exists everywhere. It's in all things, you know, all powerful, all intelligent. Oh, but it doesn't exist in the computers or our phones. Like that's, that's wrong. God can't go there and God doesn't exist there. This is some vacant territory. And I feel that when we talk about technology in such a way, you know, we're talking about certain things that we do understand about it, like 5g radiation on and on, like, you know, social media, you know, causing for hijacking the dopamine pathways and everything like that. But I feel that technology is also, it's a necessary part of where we're at in our human evolution right now. And all the problems with technology are necessary in the same way that, you know, again, plant medicines will throw you into a heap of shit before it takes you to heaven. I think that we're supposed to see that we have the ability to destroy ourselves very quick, very rapidly. I mean, like how many 5g satellites and towers have we thrown up since 2020? What's that gonna do? You know, like we say we care about climate change. And meanwhile, we're throwing thousands of these non ionizing radiation devices up everywhere, all around the world, you know, and then those who are complaining about it saying it's the Antichrist, they use their technology, they use 5g to communicate with people, they use it to to troll people online and to tell them that they shouldn't be using technology. So I think we're supposed to wake up to the hypnosis that we're coming up with all these self sabotaging reasons not to move forward with such haste that will kill us. But then too much of that those reasons to slow progress and everything keeps us in this more, you know, mythical religious use of using terminology and ideas and concepts to keep us from venturing into potentially risky territory. So I mean, that's just I guess, to finish up what I'm thinking about magic is we we're all magicians, but we have this underlying, probably very important mechanism called fear that keeps us from just putting the pedal to the metal all the time. And we need to conserve a little bit of that and step back and consider what some of the consequences of our actions are. So I mean, I don't know how I ended up in that territory, but I guess you guys tracked it. [Speaker 3] (34:05 - 34:24) Yeah, I like it, man. And it reminds me to, you know, your earlier point of, you know, if only we had proper guidance or a shaman on our ventures out then those fears wouldn't come up. You mean we would be guided through that we wouldn't be scared of the potential of technology and all the rest of it? I think more than anything. [Speaker 1] (34:25 - 34:47) We trusted things like the FCC, not to cut you off, but we we do technically have these guideposts and wise experts telling us these things. But we're also in a time period in history where we're losing faith in those institutions, which I think is also either necessary or it's just right on cue with whatever stage of evolution that we're at. [Speaker 3] (34:47 - 35:57) But I didn't mean to cut you off if you had a point. No, it's all good, man. Yeah, dude. I mean, absolutely. But like what kind of guides are they? You know, I think it's rightly so that we wake up to that realization that we are being, for the most part, misled by what our perceived authorities are. And so at the same time people, I guess, I think currently they find themselves in a limbo because they've been so reliant on authority for such a long period of time. And now there's no overarching collective authority coming through. So people are at that phase where it's like, I have to become my own authority. I have to trust myself. I have to be my own shaman. I have to learn to trust my own mind again, because the person who's been guiding me this entire time has been lying to me. And so there's these wounds around authority and around guidance, because for the most part, we haven't had any kind of real metaphoric shaman or real guidance that we trusted and we could lean on. And we felt as though actually wanted the best for our part, you know? And so it's kind of like we're all wounded, traumatized children in this sense now. That's, I guess, that would be my input on that. [Speaker 1] (35:57 - 40:19) You know, I almost wonder, and I'm definitely with you there, like I almost wonder if we're not supposed to have one now because we're supposed to invent the collective version of a singular patriarch or matriarch that saves us. You know, that old story Jamie Weal just put out a book called Recapture the Rapture. And it's all about these stories that we get hypnotized by. And every culture has these stories that whether we realize it or not, there's like this singular hero and the singular hero saves everything for everyone. And I'm curious, because there's a part of what's happening in the world right now that I feel like is perfect. It doesn't matter how many conspirators there are out there. There's only one real conspirator. And that's the underlying mystery, you know, that's basically guiding all these things. And it just makes me wonder, what are we supposed, if we're supposed to, as I was talking about magic, what lies outside of our conceivability? You know, and when we're saying we need a miracle, humanity is on a bus driving towards this cliff at top speed. And now with films like Don't Look Up and you know, all the climate rabble rousers, which is necessary, and also like it's on and off base. But I feel like we're starting to say we don't have enough time to slam on the brakes. We don't have enough time. So we need a miracle. And the thing is, is perhaps we shouldn't slam on the brakes. And perhaps we need to conceive of the fact that we're a caterpillar disintegrating inside this chrysalis. And we only have time to come out of the chrysalis and grow those wings and take flight. We don't have time to slam on the brakes. We only have the time. And we only have the time to invent the unthinkable kinds of solutions that we need. Because I often wonder, like, are we really just here to survive our own folly? You know, are we really just here to like, you know, have government so we don't consume ourselves and kill ourselves and these checks and balances? Or are we here to blow our own minds at some point? And I think that's what point of human history we're at. We're at this point where we're like, a lot of people are like, man, we're fucked. There's nothing we can do. It's just like we're completely screwed. And it's their fault. And it's their fault. And it's their fault. And I think that's where we go too far is thinking we know enough about reality to assign a definitive absolute blame externally, as if we know that that's not self. This is me, I'm free and clear, because I love a clean conscience. It helps me get to sleep at night. And you're to blame, you're to blame, you're to blame, because that makes me feel better about this shitty situation that we're all stuck in. And so I think the reason why in conspiracy, I didn't just leave people hanging with a, hey, guys, yeah, you were lied to. We're being really, really screwed right now. There's a lot of things that, you know, if you were to hear about, you would cry for months on end. So I'll see you next time. You know, I didn't want to leave people in that position. I wanted them to acknowledge that like, okay, now that I've completely, you know, caused you to shit your pants, I now want to introduce you to the one solution. And that's you, that's yourself. Because I'm not so sure, you know, like, we're all gonna die. But what do we live in the pursuit of? And I think we're, I think we're driving towards a point where we can't have just this one figure, like a lot of people thought it was going to be Trump. You know, a lot of people thought it was, you know, going to be like, like one savior or one institution or one external authority, that is going to save us from the problem. And I think what we are here to do, and the reason why we are losing our faith in the institutions that have always been set up to protect us, it's the same thing that kids feel when they're about to step out of the house for the first time. And I mean, like, leave the house. So leave the nest is I'm no longer this little child that can be taken care of forever. So as much as I want my independence, you know, like everyone's talking about freedom, I want my freedom. It's just like, okay, but anarchy is freedom. And I'm actually not above anarchy. I think anarchy is actually incredible. If you actually look at the real definition of, you know, anarcho capitalism. [Speaker 3] (40:20 - 40:20) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (40:20 - 40:56) But I guess, I guess the grand point of that is, I think we're about to invent something beyond our present conceivability. It may have something to do with technology, but I think it's going to be a collectivized effort. And it's probably going to look a lot like a collective art revolution. We're going to wake people up to the possibility that we can save ourselves. And we can blow our minds and that this was all part of our growing process with art. And then science can help streamline that process. You know, science and technology can help streamline the process. So yeah. [Speaker 3] (40:56 - 42:10) Interesting take, man. I mean, me, personally, my viewpoint wholeheartedly is that this is a time of reclamation of individual power. And that is only going to be taken according to the level of responsibility that we're willing to assume for ourselves, you know, like, on a deeper level, our lack of responsibility is what's inhibiting us from our potential, from quote unquote freedom, from whatever it might be. And you're right, man. It is a major rite of passage for a lot of people at this point in time where that disillusion of, holy shit, I'm on my own now, you know what I mean? Daddy lied to me. Mommy lied to me. I'm leaving the house. I've got to figure this shit out. But in that process of figuring it out, this is self-discovery as well. We talk about what is self. To me, you have to assume responsibility. You have to put yourself out there and be willing to bear the responsibility of life as an independent individual in order to discover who am I? What am I like? What am I capable of? What is my potential? And I think obviously things are decentralizing at the moment in many ways as well. I think that coincides with this discussion as well. But yeah. [Speaker 1] (42:12 - 46:53) I like that decentralization idea. I think I'm working with Minds.com right now. They're an alternative to Facebook. They're open source. And they're not completely decentralized because I think it's more intelligent as a stepping stone process. Sometimes centralization makes sense. It's just usually when it's the over-centralization of power that it becomes a problem. But this of open source and transparency. There's a reason why we're talking about these things. It's not just because we want our technology to be in a different category. It's a lot because I think we're meant to turn over these things collectively. What does open source mean? And a lot of people feel like, well, for one, it's far more transparency. And that's good when it comes to the government. But it's not good when the government gets to see what I'm doing. I think my brother-in-law just told me that in Holland, for Telegram, Signal, and WhatsApp, they're now obliging these companies to share all that data with the government. To share with the government all the data that's on these private platforms. Obligatory. And I think these things are also like, when I don't just look at these things as the boogeyman, oh, this is a problem. We need to solve it. Yeah, it's a teacher. It's a teachable moment. We need to engage with it, is more the way that I would say it. And I think this open source idea, the internet wouldn't exist if it didn't start open source. I was listening to an interview of Edward Berners-Lee, one of the inventors of the internet. He was saying that the original concepts of the internet, the first prototype and I'm forgetting the name, it failed because they started charging people even just a tiny nominal amount. And once they did that, most people were like, fuck this. I don't want to be a part of it. And the guy interviewing was like, wow, that's interesting. So you could have charged for what you were doing and you'd be a billionaire now. You know, but you didn't, you made it open source. And he was like, I'm going to challenge you on that. If I would have, I wouldn't have become a billionaire and the internet wouldn't have started had I not done it free and open to the people. So I think it's this thing in human evolution where we're coming to the idea that once we can collectively share ideas in real time, thanks to technology or whatever, I think you have to start turning over these ideas. What is transparency? Who gets to know what? What privacy is legitimate privacy? Because I can point towards some of our interpersonal family relations that, at least for the time being, should stay private. But what about corporations that are the biggest nuisance to the ecology? Economy that is swallowing ecology whole. How much privacy should they be allowed to have? If we're not allowed to know how their practices are actually affecting the collective, should that be something that in the corporate person, we're allowed to say, oh, no, but you're allowed your privacy. We protect corporations like they're people now. So, I mean, it's an interesting time when I take a look at what is happening in human history right now. Technology, we think is so external to us, but social media is like a hyper dimensional computer or it's a mirror, if you will. It's mirroring humanity back to us. We get to see what humanity looks like a collective organism through these, I would call them rudimentary, but increasing in their evolution, rudimentary kinds of mirrors like social media, the complexity of it. We get to see what people are thinking, how they comment on videos, how much they love taking pictures of their cats and their food. You know what I mean? We get to see what humanity is all about. And I think this is what self-realization truly is. We're trying to figure it out individually, like what does this big whole worldly event mean for me as an individual? And I think that's important. But sometimes you have to just acknowledge that you don't need to understand the physics of a tidal wave to know that you need to either surf it or you're going to get clobbered. So, I mean, I think that's where we're at. I think this is the growing pains of waking up and technology is a big mirror to who and what we are. [Speaker 2] (46:55 - 47:13) Where do you think we're going? Like with all this stuff that's happening, where do you think technology is taking us? Like if you were to take out your crystal ball, if that's even a thing you want to entertain and go, okay, like in 10 years and 20 years and 30 years, what do you think the world's going to look like? I'm just curious of your point of view there. [Speaker 1] (47:14 - 55:07) Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the technology is something that I can speculate about, but it's here to blow all of our minds. Even the people who've created it and have an agenda because they want to transfer their consciousness into a computer and live forever. I think even the creators don't understand their creation. And so in 10, 20, 30 years, I think we're going to see in this very decade, if you haven't heard of the fourth turning, it's this concept of a crisis period that we entered in 2008, and it shouldn't last any longer than 2028. And there's a lot of really interesting work that goes into showing that every 80 to 90 years, we enter a crisis period. And when we enter a crisis period, like the last one was the Great Depression and World War II. One previous to that 80, 90 years before that Civil War, 80, 90 years before that, the Revolutionary War. Before that was the Glorious Revolution in Europe. And this is very Western centric, but if you'll stay with me during these crisis periods, economy changes, politics changes, and social understandings of self change. And there's huge upheavals to major institutions. And usually there's war and in war, historically, I hate to say this or scare your audience, but historically, every crisis period has the most advanced technology is deployed, or a weaponry, I should say, the most advanced weaponry is deployed. And we saw with the last one was atomic energy. The reason why I feel like that's not a huge problem is because our technology today is much more about story than brute force. I mean, you look at our technology is the social media, it is the data harvesting, it is the way that information on your feed is different than information on my feed, even though we may follow the same exact people. So the sequestering of information and the intelligent and intentional placing of certain information in front of introverts, who are more prone to conspiracy theory to scare them away from the voting booth, as opposed to extroverts, which are given the more get out there and you know, use your voice and blah, blah, blah, vote, vote, vote. That's what this technology is turning into. So what I think in the next 10, what are we at 2022? Yeah, in the next six years, we're probably going to experience the United States losing its seat as number one in the global economy. And as tech leaders and stuff like that, we're in a unipolar world. And we've been since the fall of the Soviet Union. I think we're going to enter a multipolar world where China and Russia are now checks and balances. And this isn't good. It's not like, you know, well, it's not as intelligent as we would like it to. It's not like some altruistic checks and balances. It's by brute force. But as far as technology, I think what's going to change, we're already seeing xenobots and tiny microscopic technology, if you will, bots that are made of living tissue from the DNA of frogs, which can change gender if you haven't watched Jurassic Park. And you can cut them and they'll heal. So these are technologies that are starting to build real living organisms with real tissue and real vascular systems eventually and on and on. I think we're going to see Westworld come to pass, but not so quickly, maybe not even in our lifetimes, maybe not that realistic. But we know for a fact that we're working on cloning. We're working on genetic modification. Jurassic Park, I knew back then that if the Turin Shroud was real and we have Christ's DNA, we're going to try and clone him. If we have Napoleon Bonaparte's DNA or a pharaoh's DNA, we're going to try and clone them and bring them back. And then one day it'll go to corporate and then we're going to have Napoleon and Jesus debating on Fox News about which direction the country should go into. It's like today, joining us, we have Hitler debating Napoleon Bonaparte. And I think technology is going to not be circuits and wires anymore. Now, far enough in the future, if we go far enough, I think what we are going to realize is I get a lot of people saying that there's no way we're going to imitate life or create life. And this comes out of the mouths of people who don't know what life is. None of us do. We don't know how to explain life. There is a mystery that has never been solved about why any of this. Why is there anything moving around or getting up and walking and thinking and talking? There's no satisfactory explanation to it. There's a lot of attempts at it. But I think what we're going to see is what Terence McKenna said. One day, we're going to realize that our impact on the earth is a teacher. It's an example. And we're going to realize that consciousness is not bound by this body, but we can jump in and out of our body and inhabit other bodies as well. And I think this is far enough in the future. And I don't mean to go like too sci-fi for you guys. It's all good, man. We're here for the truth. And we're here for having all these dialogues. I think what we're going to experience is we're going to realize that what we thought were fixed parts of reality, like my consciousness belongs to this body and that's it. Out-of-body experiences, we already have the narrative that's coming up that's saying, no, I had a near-death experience and I was hovering above my body, still thinking, still wondering, still doing human stuff up there. I just didn't feel the pain from my body anymore. And then I entered my body again, and I felt all that pain. So I think what we're going to experience is that where we think technology will go as all these individuated little bots and stuff like that, we're going to realize that consciousness, it permeates all of it. And so when we have technology and stuff like that, if you think about it, it's communicating to the cloud. What's the cloud? Well, it's just another computer that's computing, but it's computing through invisible waves. And the whole of technology, which some call the technium, acts or can act as a singular organism. It's just not linked in that way yet. And I think it's the same thing for humanity. I think the, what do they call it? The apotheosis of technology is coming to realize that the only thing that's ever been happening here is that term God. It's the only thing that's ever been getting up and moving around. We call it a multiplicity. We call it self and other different things. We'll come to realize that all of it was us to begin with. And I think at that point, I don't know what lies beyond that event horizon because we either destroy ourselves or we transcend to something I can't explain. So yeah. Are you making a movie? I am making a movie called Welcome to the Machine, which is all about understanding technology differently, not as the antichrist, not as the savior, but as an extension of what we call self or extending self into previously unforeseen territory. [Speaker 2] (55:07 - 55:57) I mean, the reality is I don't think technology is going away and it is evolving and expanding in ways that we can't even comprehend, like you were saying. So then I want to ask you this, there is this movement back to the old world ways, back to the land, back to homesteading, like disconnecting even more. So like, how do you see like that interplay happening? Are these people that are like, you know, I'm moving off the grid and I'm going to have like a homestead, like, are they going to be left behind from fusing with these bots or whatever you were saying? Like, I'm just so curious, like, because there are many people who like, I like and I'm curious about the things you're saying, but there are so many people out there be like, fuck that shit, get Neuralink away from me and all the other stuff related to that. Like, I got a plot of land and some goats and some rabbits and some chickens and I'm chilling. So I'm just, I'm so curious. [Speaker 1] (55:58 - 1:00:51) That's all technology as well. Technology is bending resources outside of you. So building a house and putting chickens in it and eating those eggs to sustain yourself. That's a technology. Neuralink, keep it away from me. You know, I don't want, you know, 5G and Bluetooth in my cranium. Like I've read enough stories to say that like, let's find a different way to do what Neuralink wants to do with us. Or actually not what Neuralink wants to do with us because I don't really like that. And in fact, I'm friends with Max Egan. I'm friends with, you know, David Icke. You know, I understand the dangers they put out there. I also understand that those who are saying that this is bad and this is wrong, I'm waiting for a solution that doesn't feel like scared stay away from me. You know, because there's something in that that I feel like, no, no, it's not asking us to run the opposite way. It's asking us to transcend our concepts. And in a sense, I don't like where technology is at. I don't like the non-ionizing radiation. I don't like that now there's the internet of underwater things and millions of sensors are going to be dumped into our ocean so it can keep track on tsunamis and stuff like that. You know, it's going to be communicating through sonic pulses that Martin, Paul and many other people are saying is going to be worse than your Wi-Fi router. And it's going to disrupt marine life. It's incredibly stupid if you think about it. But the reason why I talk about technology in such a way is because we don't even know what a human is. We can transcend. And I have full faith that we can transcend every issue that's out there. That doesn't mean we just ignore it and say like, all right, well, I'm just going to kick my feet up and forget about it. No, it's asking for us to engage with it. Those who go back to the land, those who want away from technology, what I see is that's a statement that they don't like the current iteration of technology. They want to go back to a certain point of technology like the Amish, right? The Amish are like, all right, we can build houses, you know, we can have horse and buggies and stuff like that. And I lived amongst the Amish. You know, they just stopped at a certain point and said beyond this point, I don't agree. The only problem I have with that is, you know, or maybe not even problem, I would just say reconsider that you want to throw away or just do away with all of it and consider that there may be some developments that you are down with adopting, but you don't want the telephone poles and you don't want the 5G towers right next to your house. You don't want, you know, these cables being run under the ground so you're in this electromagnetic grid. You don't want cameras everywhere feeling like you're in China in a smart city. I get all of that. I absolutely, and I'd rather be in nature. You know, I'd rather be doing parkour in the woods. But I think I'm not here to just live my desired life, my human desired life. I'm here to learn what I'm really here to do. And so I think a lot of people, I get the sentiment that they want to say, fuck off with all technology. I'm just going to go live in the woods. I get that. But you said technology is not going anywhere. It's not. And guess what? You want to avoid the 5G towers? There's satellites up above you. You're not going to avoid it. Even if you want to live on a boat in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, satellites always beaming this stuff. So, and I think when we're doing a puzzle, I'll just end with this. When we're doing a puzzle and this one piece, you're sure that it must fit here and you keep trying it upside down in every way and you're sure that it must fit there. But if it doesn't fit there, you eventually come to realization, okay, this piece does not belong here. So what I'm saying with this is a lot of people, they can only conceive of if I don't like where technology is at, I need to go back to a certain point in history and live a certain way that they lived. And I am fully confident that I would be happy that way. I'm sure you would. But are we here for you just to be happy and not to feel like you're faced with all the same global problems that everyone else is facing? Because that puzzle piece thing, there's somewhere technology is meant to go. And I think that going back to the old world is like trying to force that puzzle piece into the wrong spot. [Speaker 3] (1:00:51 - 1:01:02) Let me ask you this. Why aren't they meant to be happy? Why? What makes you think that your desires aren't what you're here to do? [Speaker 1] (1:01:03 - 1:03:48) That's a good point. That's a very good question. Maybe, if I'm just being perfectly candid, which would be the point of a podcast. Maybe it's just a personal belief. It's maybe not an overarching belief. And maybe it's semantics here because I guess it's not about the happiness. What I really mean is when we run away from a situation back to a certain point where we feel safe, we didn't engage with something that we could have. And if it's a lion, fucking run away. I get it. You run away to a place that you're retreating to. But I guess the reason why I said that I feel like a lot of people feel like the world and reality owes them security and safety that we don't need to invent it ourselves. So when you feel like you're owed security and safety, sometimes you run back to old models that don't serve you anymore in the same way that we go back to old girlfriends and boyfriends and relationships that I want to be happy like I was. I want to feel safe and secure like I was when reality is showing you like, no, you move on, you move through, you move forward, you engage with. And I guess the reason why I said that and thank you for clearing up the semantics of it. The reason why I say that is because probably the biggest example that I noticed that people wanting to go back to just living off the land. I mean, I'm doing that. So like, let me also not make the mistake of making it seem like I think we should all live in a smart city. I want to do away with 90% of the technology. I want technology to be done more intelligently and more streamlined with nature, not at odds with nature. That's what I want, but I'm not afraid of technology. And I feel like people are afraid of technology and they're using the fear to keep them from seeing that beneath the boogeyman is a teacher here. And when I say that maybe we're not here to just live out our fantasies. Can either of you tell me that you know that the point of life is to feel secure, to feel, maybe not secure is the right word to say it, but that all of our desires as well as we can conceive of that your desires are supposed to come true. Can you say that you know that this is the purpose of life that our desires are meant to be fulfilled or are our desires, our only human construct to move towards what we think we need, which is like we all say we're trying to avoid pain and move into pleasure. I don't think that's why we're here. [Speaker 3] (1:03:49 - 1:03:52) I don't know why, but I don't believe my desires are foreign to me either. [Speaker 1] (1:03:54 - 1:07:10) Maybe not foreign. No. And I believe it's a mechanism to get you to look deeper into reality. I think your desires are there. So I want a million dollars. That's a desire of mine. And I get it. And I was sure that I was going to be happy. I'm going to run off into the woods and I'm going to eat nothing but eggs and I'll be secluded out there. And then I come to find out that I feel lonely. In fact, I kind of miss every now and then Netflixing and chilling. And what I'm saying more, I guess, now that I'm running through the scenario in my head is the people that I was talking about are those that are running to a point where they used to feel safe, like an old platform, an old stepping stone rather than moving forward in their life because they're worried. And maybe it's just a loss for words because I do definitely see where you're coming from. And I'm glad you put that challenge to me there. But it's just this underlying notion that I feel that and I use happiness and security and maybe those words aren't even correct. But it's this underlying notion that I feel a lot of people are certain that the source of their woes and their pain is technology. It's Bill Gates. It's the Illuminati. There's all these things that we are certain we understand that is the source of our pain. So we run to previous forms of security, thinking that that's what life is all about, to feel safe. Now, why does the flow state get brought on by pushing past your comfort zone 4%, an intelligent 4%? The flow state is you have to risk. You have to put skin in the game. If you up the risk and the skin in the game a little bit, you actually trigger the flow state, which I believe is a higher form of play. Play is curiosity and playing around. And then when it becomes effortless, and the self merges with the task, and Michael Jordan doesn't even remember how easy it was to slam dunk from the free throw line. I think we're meant to venture out and try new things. And I think we're scared of technology and we're allowing the fear of technology as it exists today to scare us back into previous states of sedentary. Sedentary. We're not evolving. We're not engaging with this problem. I'll just end it this way. I think we're supposed to look at what technology is actually doing on this planet. Because what is technology? What really is this stuff? Is it going to turn into a new organism? There are many questions that are unanswered. I would say that we're in the middle of this ayahuasca ceremony, and we're asking for it to stop. We're saying, please stop, please stop, please stop. I don't want to see any more of this. And I get it. It's hard. It's scary. Like I said, I watched Max Egan and David Icke. How can you not feel a little bit of fear if you're watching the shit that they're putting out there? I think that we're supposed to leverage our fear, not run from it. Maybe I should have just said it that way. [Speaker 2] (1:07:10 - 1:07:54) No, I get it. And I love the conversation we're having. Because again, we are using words. And what are these words? How do we perceive these words? There is semantics. And for some, I could say them going back to live off the land is not going to be secure because they're like, I don't even know how to grow vegetables. I don't even know how to start a farm or do this and that. So they're going to face challenges they've never faced before. So I think it depends on the individual. And then when we start talking about desires, I mean, there's a part of me that has desires that wouldn't be ideal for the fact that I'm in a committed monogamous relationship. You know what I mean? So like, what parts of us have desires? Are they related to our values? And so even that... [Speaker 3] (1:07:54 - 1:08:08) Rational. I think rational desires. That's a self-discernment to discern what is a rational, what's a rational desire, what's a pseudo desire, which is obviously just not self-serving in any way. [Speaker 1] (1:08:10 - 1:09:25) Well, yeah, I mean, to me, it's all about learning. Life is all about being the student of life and our irrational desires are there to teach us just as much as our very functional biological desires. Like, yeah, I love breathing. That's a desire of mine to keep breathing and keep eating and have the opportunity to sleep when I'm not being chased by some kind of monster. There's all kinds of desires. Perhaps where I was really going with that is it's not the... Where I believe we are here to learn from life. Sometimes learning means stepping out of our comfort. Sometimes we're not happy in the throes of our learning curves. So, I love happiness. And I believe we all deserve to be happy. But I believe happy is one of the things that happens on the roller coaster towards self. And sometimes so is fear. And a lot of us are like, no, I want to be happy. I don't want to be afraid. So throw away fear. Okay, well, you're going to miss a lot of life. If you're just running from fear, you're going to miss a lot of the lessons. Because if you stand up to fear, if you stand up to that bully, if you say what's really in your heart, even though you know you're going to get challenged, you learn more than you would have if you would have kept your mouth shut and stayed happy. [Speaker 2] (1:09:26 - 1:10:03) Yeah. Well, this is again, like where we talk about even the concept of self-esteem. It's like, what is it the basic competence to deal with life's challenges? So you have to challenge yourself. And then you get to see that what you're capable of. Oh, I just faced this challenge. I stepped out of my comfort zone. And then like, wow, I feel, wow, I did something I've never done before. I learned something new. And then I could keep moving forward. So yeah, I get it. I mean, like, I love playing table tennis. So I don't know if I'd be happy if I can play in 24 set, like, I might enjoy playing 24, seven for a certain period of time and realize what the fuck, like, what's going, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I'm just speaking from personal example. [Speaker 1] (1:10:04 - 1:11:36) I do. I also love just for the audience and you guys, like, I love pointing out, like, there's also humility here. We are talking like super philosophically. And at the end of the day, I'm, I'm a fucking musician that turned into a filmmaker that has no fucking clue what I'm doing in life sometimes. And I love the fact that we can have this conversation because I mean, it just shows that like, what the hell am I doing? Having a philosophical conversation about the deep complexities of life. You know what I mean? Like, and I think it all kind of points towards the same thing. Why do you play table tennis? Why do I play music? There are certain moments where that's called for to be in the fullest expression of what life might be asking. And, you know, sometimes it's being challenged on words and like, you know, and, and the reason why I bring this up is because sometimes I get challenged on things that I say in films and that lives for fucking ever. Thank you, internet. And people will come back and be like, oh, you use the wrong picture there. That wasn't thought that was a new business. And I'm like, all right, yeah, I get it. And it's like, it's, it's there permanently. But I also like to show that it's beautiful to show that I'm fallible. And I'm a musician. Like every time somebody says, you know, like, or every time that I find that I'm at my wits end of my research or my understanding of reality, I always just go back to dude, I'm an artist. You know what I mean? I'm just an artist talking about shit right now. So we can also stay humble. And I think humility is a very powerful tool to use. Because a lot of the times we feel like we need to take life so seriously. [Speaker 3] (1:11:37 - 1:11:48) Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, man. You didn't just have a philosophical conversation. You're at the sequel to George Orwell's 1984 2028 for us. That's true. [Speaker 1] (1:11:48 - 1:11:49) That's true. [Speaker 3] (1:11:50 - 1:12:58) I absolutely love this conversation. I love that we get to come at it from our different viewpoints and just really extrapolate what this is. And I think we're all on completely on the same page that we have to step out of our comfort zone. We have to be challenged. I mean, we started this conversation talking about potential. How can you even fathom what potential is if you don't go to meet it, you know? And I think meeting life is so important. And I'm all about embracing technology in that regard completely. Like, I don't think I don't, I don't advocate for wanting to return or move back to a womb like state or regress on any level whatsoever. You know what I mean? But I feel like for a lot of people, collectively, I think we've been bypassing responsibility as well in terms of how much control we have handed over to governmental authorities. You know, I think for some people by returning to the land and venturing in different ways, it's kind of them walking the path which life actually bypassed for them to get to the point where they can feel responsible and they can feel as though they've done the work to handle the technology, which might come into play, you know? Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:13:00 - 1:13:46) I just want to add something to that too, because, you know, I relate to it. I mean, I grew up in suburbia. I went to college in Boston. I lived in New York City for nine years, and then I moved out to Los Angeles nine years ago. And my wife and I moved to Topanga a year and a half ago. We have a little bit of land and we're embarking on having this kind of like homestead life or bougie homestead life, I guess you could call it, you know, because we're about to get chickens next week. We're, you know, starting to grow vegetables. But at the same time, I don't want to throw away my computer. I mean, look at us. We're having this conversation. Joel's in Australia. You're in Tennessee. I'm in Topanga. I don't want to not have that. Like, I love this element, this element of technology. It's fucking incredible and it's amazing. So yeah, again, how do you use it as a tool? You know, it's a tool. How do we use it? We allow it to use us, etc. [Speaker 1] (1:13:47 - 1:15:41) For sure. And, you know, like you, back to you asking what the future is going to look like, I do think it's going to turn, maybe not agrarian again, but I think it's going to turn back to more simple economic models, more fractional economic models. And like the, I know that for most people, they see the direction that the world's heading right now. They're like, there's no way it's going to become a technocracy completely controlled from top down. I think that is coming to pass. I definitely do. But I also don't see that as being what most people fear, which is a prison planet, slave system everywhere. I think it's going to encroach on our lives in many ways. And I think we're also going to develop temporary solutions to these temporary problems. And part of that's going to be, people are just going to say, fuck it to the economic system. Because right now, I mean, the economic system in the United States is just, it's all the flaws are being shown right now in a short amount of time in history. And so I think people are going to come to realize that as inflation goes through the roof, actually, it's cheaper, it's more stable to get chickens to return to a non-city dwelling type of life. And maybe the cities will still be there. I'm sure they will. But I think a lot, I think it's smart to go. And that's not even going backwards. I think land is still here. Chickens are still here. We have the ability to plant in the ground. Demeter still gives us food. And so I think what we're going to do is, like you said, we're bypassing a lot of our responsibility to the nanny state. And the nanny state is like, yeah, we'll feed you, we'll do this, we'll do that, and the other, unless there's a war, and unless supply chains get cut off, unless there's food shortages coming or something like that. [Speaker 3] (1:15:41 - 1:15:43) And as long as you get- As long as you get three jabs. [Speaker 1] (1:15:44 - 1:19:20) Right. Yeah. And then however many suppositories you need from that point on. I literally heard about COVID suppositories. It's pretty funny. But I'm all about that. And I think I can't wait for that. But I don't feel like technology is not going to be involved in that. I feel like my ideal, if I would tell you my ideal, is that we live closer to the way- I mean, I'm looking at this book right now. This is ancient Ukraine. It's the ancient history of Erata Ukraine from 20,000 BC to 1000 CE. Would blow your mind. This is where the oldest forms of shamanism come from. Ancient Ukraine, right in the Dnipro area, these stone graves, and the cuneiform writing that is, by their accounts, proto-Sumerian. So pre-Gobekli Tepe, pre-all the religions. It's where the Aryans, the Slavs, the Baltics, the Russians, all come from this one area. And 20,000 years ago, they were using cannabis by the thousands to do ceremonies on certain spots on planet Earth, where there's inerton fields, where there's a 5 million year old ancient volcano underneath. And there's these interesting vortexes of inerton fields coming up through the ground. They would do these ceremonies to me. I feel like I want to go back to that. Kind of what Burning Man was showing you. It's just like 70,000 people can set up a city in the matter of a couple months, use it for a week, and then clean it up like it was never there. I mean, Burning Man has some weird aspects to it, but I think we're meant to do ceremony. I think we're meant to come together as community. I think we're meant to share space and do plant medicines together. I think we're meant to share our struggles and communicate. And so what I feel like where we're headed is something that resembles what we loved out of the past, but is enhanced, only enhanced, not taken over, not dominated, but enhanced by technology. And I think that's the most ideal world we could find, where technology, you can barely see it. It feels like we're living in the Garden of Eden, but technology is there, but it removes itself as it becomes less and less necessary. And it's just seamless with reality until eventually, hopefully, we realize that everything we are outsourcing and allowing technology to do, I believe we used to have the ability to do that. Our higher human potential, you look at wolves, or even aboriginals that know when a hunt has been completed. They know how many animals are coming back. How do they know that? Science can't explain it, but we know that wolves and bears do that at miles of a distance. They have some kind of communication ability. So it's not like we don't have that communication ability. Hell, Ellen Boudreau and Daniel Kish, they taught themselves to echolocate. They rewired a part of their brain to create a 3D map inside their head, and now they can see around corners. How does that happen? It's not because of brilliant DNA. It's not because they're special. It's because they focus their mind and their body on a singular task until it became reality. That seems like magic to me. Maybe a scientist would explain it away somehow, but it's like, yeah, but you go ahead and do that. You teach yourself to see around corners by echolocation, but we can. [Speaker 2] (1:19:21 - 1:19:56) I love that you said that because even when certain people create a life, a life that aligns with their highest values, and people will go, oh, you're so lucky. They almost put it in the realm of the unexplainable. I guess you can say magic, but then it's like back to what you said about focusing your mind and your body on a certain task or tasks that you do every single day and choices that you make every single day that bring you and help manifest this life that you have. Other people are looking on and going, oh, well, that's just luck. I find that interesting. [Speaker 1] (1:19:58 - 1:24:49) A lot of people who say, oh, they became an overnight success because they're lucky. They invented, they had to position themselves so it could happen overnight. They didn't just walk into a rehearsal. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought I was applying at McDonald's. Well, sit down and act the part out. And then bam, they become the number one actor or actress in Hollywood. No, it takes hard work and determination. Man, there was one other part of that that I wanted to mention. You were mentioning the luck part of it. It'll come back to me, but this concept that we don't invent that reality. For me, everything that seems to just fall into my lap is because I positioned myself. I invented that reality. And I will say this in terms of inventing. Magician, right? Totally. And it all starts with mind. I'll use this as an example. Some people are like, I'm stuck. I have to sit behind the sink and wash dishes for hours a day because my kids or it's my job or something like that. And I can't do anything else. I can't get ahead this way. And it's killing me. Well, it's proven that even if you just have a gratitude journal and you engage with it, it lowers inflammation around the heart. It's not even saying that gratitude lowers inflammation around the heart. That just means engaging with a gratitude journal. So if you're standing in front of the sink doing dishes all day, but you're griping about the fact that you're standing in front of the sink doing dishes all day, what if you just change your perspective? You go through a gratitude list every single time and you make yourself do it. Even though you want to gripe, you're like, no, I'm going to focus on gratitude. And you force yourself to do that. You allow yourself to do that rather than force. Is that going to change you? It has to. It has to. Your mind definitely permeates your body. So to me, I've also come to realize that when things happen to me, I come up with a story to make sense of it. I'm like, why did this happen? Oh, well, it's probably because of blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah. And most people in the country right now are saying, well, it's Biden's fault. Because it's easy to project responsibility onto somebody else and say, what I'm feeling right now, it's that person's fault. That makes me feel better because I don't have to do anything about it now. That's the denial. That's the blocking of the magician. So you could invent something and say, no, I'm just going to assume that every way that I feel, I can do something about it, but I need to find what it is inside me that's asking to take more responsibility, to step up, to step into my human potential and my power. I invented it. Is it a lie? I invented a different perspective that allows me to be more in gratitude and for me to not project out onto other people, but take responsibility for everything. I that to me means that's magic. You can create something that changes the direction of your life. You can invent a perspective that can lower inflammation around your heart. What's the placebo effect? It's what all pharmaceutical companies with billions of dollars, that's their number one competitor. The human ability to take a sugar pill and turn it into exactly what that other pill was going to do. At such a degree that you only need to beat it by 1% or 2% to have Zoloft, to have Ambien. You only need to beat the placebo effect by 1% or 2% to say, clinically, this actually works better than placebo. So let's pump billions of dollars into it and get it into people's households. That's what placebo does. That's the human imbuing an external thing with meaning, taking it like a sacrament and inventing the exact same thing that that medicine over there was going to do. Nobody has an explanation for that. Every time I hear people saying like, Ben, that sounds very good and airy-fairy, but I'm just like, you don't even know how to explain what the placebo effect is. You don't even understand some of the underlying mechanisms that mind merging with body can create all this technology and do all these things that humans are doing right now. Rewiring your auditory center in the brain to create a visual map. How do you do that? It sounds like magic, but it just lies beyond our conceivability. So we feel safer saying, oh, it's magic. It's not real. So I don't have the responsibility of stepping into that chamber of my human potential. [Speaker 3] (1:24:49 - 1:24:55) Yeah. Well, it's the willingness to discover what you're capable of at the end of the day, you know? Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:24:56 - 1:24:58) And step into uncomfortable territory. [Speaker 3] (1:25:00 - 1:25:12) Ben, man, this has been such a fire conversation. We're so glad that you're able to make the time to join us. I've got a final question for you. You might have already answered it. What is the single most important lesson you've ever learned in your life? [Speaker 1] (1:25:24 - 1:25:30) Always wipe from front to back. I'll give you a better one. I'll give you a better one. [Speaker 2] (1:25:35 - 1:25:37) I wipe from front to back, yes. Thank God. [Speaker 1] (1:25:38 - 1:25:53) You solved the problem, the human dilemma. Breathe. Really learn how to breathe. Do either of you do Brazilian jiu-jitsu? [Speaker 2] (1:25:53 - 1:25:56) No. I wrestled back in the days, but no. [Speaker 1] (1:25:56 - 1:28:25) I mean, it's in a lot of sports, but in BJJ, it's a lot about learn how to breathe. Don't gas yourself. You're in it for the long haul. People's breathing goes into this panic mode when they're stressed because they're late for work. They're causing their body to make it feel like a predator is after them when really they're just late for work and they're sitting in a car. If you can breathe as if you're in heaven, you could be in hell and you could maintain that like the Buddha or a Bodhisattva. Really, the whole point of a Bodhisattva is to enter them, just to go from nirvana, heaven, back into hell to serve other people, to help others who are in hell, that they just have lost hope. They've lost this hope that anything better could come, like the mice, that they were put into a beaker of water and they couldn't climb out. They would swim around for 15 minutes until they just gave up hope and they drowned. So they did it again and they took these mice and they put them in there. But after like 10, 11 minutes, they saved them. So now they have hope that they'll be saved. Later on, they let them rest. They put them back in the beaker. How long do you think they swam for afterwards? Because they had hope. It was like, was it 60 hours or something? 60 fucking hours. 60 hours because of hope. That was hope they didn't even think was possible when they were freaking out before. If you breathe and you simply just learn how to breathe casually and normally in the face of any stress that you're facing, I think that's what I've realized. I deal with a lot of stress. Like I said, I have twin three-year-old boys in diapers and evolution did not prepare humans to drive 75 down a highway with screaming kids in a tin can. That's not what evolution prepared the ears for. But we can deal with so much and you can learn so much from what feels like hell by just breathing and relaxing a little bit. It doesn't mean you need to stay in hell, but there's something about the breath that I think a lot of people skip over. They try and go to some intellectual resolution to their problems when really it lies in your breath or your diet. [Speaker 2] (1:28:26 - 1:28:53) Yeah, man. I hear you there. No, thank you so much for that. Man, I feel like a conversation for another time and getting into the nervous system and other things as well. Because again, it's like the more you can build that window of that resilience, you can be in hell or you can have these things happen to you and you can react more appropriately to what the situation calls for and have a lot less stress in your life. Yeah, man, thank you so much for being here, dude. Really appreciate the conversation. [Speaker 1] (1:28:54 - 1:28:54) Yeah, it's a pleasure. [Speaker 2] (1:28:55 - 1:28:57) It's a pleasure to meet both of you. Yeah, likewise, man. [Speaker 3] (1:28:57 - 1:29:01) Before we go, how can our audience find you? Is there anything that you want to let them know? [Speaker 1] (1:29:02 - 1:29:45) Go to benjosephstewart.com. That's B-E-N-J-O-S-E-P-H-S-T-E-W-A-R-T. So benjosephstewart.com has all my exclusive content. You can go to YouTube and type in Ben Stewart. You'll find my Ben Stewart podcast. You'll find Waking Infinity News on Monday. And yeah, I mean, those are the two places to find me. Find me on Instagram. I don't really use Twitter all that often. I don't personally go on the rest of the social media stuff. I just use Instagram. So you can find me there at benjosephstewart.com. And that's how you can find me. [Speaker 3] (1:29:46 - 1:29:56) Beautiful man. We'll make sure all those links are in the show notes. And dude, honored to share this conversation with you. Thank you so much. Same. Thank you both. Thanks, man. Thanks for listening, guys. We'll see you next time.