Rinat Strahlhofer May I Have Your Attention ?

[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 0:22) Rise Above the Herd was like a lifeline to me in the moments I needed it most in my life. It introduced me the most wonderful like-minded souls and it helped me really cast a vision for my future. Nowadays I'm passionate about the work I'm doing, I'm being invited to speak at live teachings and my work's being requested to integrate into school curriculums and I'm just so excited about the future and what that holds, thanks to RATH. [Speaker 3] (0:22 - 0:33) Rise Above the Herd reminded me because it is a reminder that I have all the power within myself to create change in my own life. [Speaker 1] (0:34 - 1:25) Rise Above the Herd is a one-of-a-kind program. I feel confident saying that because we integrate and we bridge the psychological and the biological. Yes, we provide information and knowledge to inspire you, to allow you to reflect deeply on who you are and where you want to go in your life, but at the same time, we integrate the biological. There is a nervous system focus to this piece that is a requirement to any self-development process. In this program, we help you build greater capacity within your nervous system so you can move through your life with presence, so you can know yourself, what's really happening on the most intimate level, so you can communicate clearly and ultimately be more empowered to achieve your goals as you move through life. Our next round is January 8th. Join us for this transformational journey. You can go to riseabovetheherd.co or hit the link in the show notes. [Speaker 3] (1:26 - 1:33) You are now listening to the Here for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Rafiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 1] (1:36 - 40:30) All right, everybody, welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. Today, we have the return of Renat Strahlhofer. She's the creative force behind the Lively app and a pioneer in the digitally conscious movements. Renat, drawing on her experience as an ex-telecom marketing insider, recognized our collective struggle with digital overload and responded with Lively, a movement and an app designed to bring us back to the heart of real life experiences. Her mission is to inspire us to embrace the world beyond our screens and find that elusive balance between our digital and physical lives. She previously joined us over 100 episodes ago on episode 52, which was all about 5G, big tech, and the surveillance state. We went into her hero's journey there, including her career as a telecom executive. Also, just recently, she's officially an alumni of our 8-week group coaching program, Rise Above the Herd. Renat, so amazing to see you here once again. I'm so excited to be here. I do feel like there's been so much time that's passed. It doesn't sound like a lot of time, but a lot of different realizations between then and now. Yeah, so much has happened too. And I don't think we even told you this, but what your episode, episode 52, was one of the episodes that gave us a strike that led to us getting booted off YouTube. So, you're doing something right. You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah, that 5G topic definitely seems to be a sore spot when it comes to YouTube, for sure. Renat, what's been happening? Give us something like, you know, obviously, we've connected over the past eight weeks inside Rise Above the Herd. Like, beyond that, in general, how has, I guess, life progressed and, you know, your overall evolution and worldview shifted? I mean, we spoke on this podcast, I think, two years ago now. Yeah. I think I've channeled my inner salmon. Does that sound crazy? So, if you've ever been on a canoe trip that's required even a little bit of upstream paddling, you know what it's like to fight the current. And I feel that, you know, I guess when I say I'm channeling my inner wild salmon, wild being keyword there, it's just like that every, I guess, sometimes it's like riding for hundreds of miles, navigating roaring, rapid, vicious currents is what it sort of felt like for the last few years at certain times. And to kind of come to that return of a place where you were born, because that's sort of the journey of a salmon. It's like you go through the stream of the river and you come to the ocean and you come back to where you were born, that remembering and that ultimate journey piece. And we talk a lot about the hero's journey. I also teach on that. But it's like, you know, whether you're really living or whether you're not really living, you can go downstream. It's only if you're really prepared to like take necessary steps to really find the power in yourself that you go upstream. Because that's, I think, a really brilliant illustration of my last year of like noticing that it's the tension, which we talked about a lot in our course as well. And that hero's piece that allows you to go towards the things that are sort of like the mediocrity that's pushing against you or the currents that are pushing against you. And so I've realized that there are many people on that same journey. And for a long time there, I wondered why there were so few. And now I just really focus on the few and I really value the few and I catered to the minority. So I catered to the few. And I think that my whole life has turned into this really beautiful experience of the magnetic field, I guess, really, which is what the salmon use as well. But that magnetic field towards the remembering. Yeah. I love that analogy. Because without awareness, without self-knowledge, without really engaging in psychological growth or self-work, the masses just purely through the conditioning of culture are going to be heading downstream. And it requires effort or requires force and will on our part to move against that. But if we just sit back and let culture, let the conditioning forces have their way with us, then you're right. We're just being moved in whichever way that current whims and directs. And so getting to the place of stepping into action and being like, no, I'm a force of myself and I want to swim upstream. Yeah, that's a venture for the few, not for the many. Yeah, 100% agree. And those are the few that I really enjoy swimming with. Let's put it that way. It's fascinating to have this incredible life and talk about transformation. The way I see transformation is pretty simple and people don't like to simplify things. They think transformation should be this really hard thing. It's not. Transformation for me requires three major realizations. And that is, at first I thought, but then I realized and now I can. And if we're prepared to go on the journey of those three major steps, that is the formula in my mind for transformation. And the more conversations that I'm having, it's like things are constantly lining up to make you feel like it's complicated. Ideas are complicated, dreams are complicated, certain situations around the world are complicated. And when we actually come back to simplicity, which is what I think we're most afraid of is simplicity. We're afraid of how simple it is to access the part of us that has creative potential. It's actually not hard because we've all just got it. And that's why I think we're here. We're here to access creative potential, to live within that pool. And when that pool has always been systematically, I guess, poisoned, to say it lightly, then I think that kind of clouds our judgment. It clouds our reverence, our awe of the experience of creative potential. And we don't access those things when we start to, I guess, question why things aren't simple. We go, oh, it's so hard. It's like, no, it's actually really quite simple. The hard part is actually not the understanding, it's making the decision to do it. But the simplicity is actually understanding it. Yeah. I think this is where the difference between a victim mindset and an empowered mindset comes into play. Because I feel like a victim mindset overly complicates things. Yes, there may be some simplicity in terms of how they're speaking about stuff, but an empowered mindset just takes personal responsibility and is honest with themselves and goes, what's the next step I need to do? I just feel like, yeah, I don't know. That's just what came to my mind. Yeah. I agree with you. But so much of this human experience and what it means to appropriately live and appropriately lead one's life is shrouded in so much mysteria. There's so many complicated philosophies which make no sense, which drive human thought. So many backward socio-political theories, even spiritual growth and spiritual evolution, we're shrouded in so much mysteria like it's some being only available to the few who understand and get to this mystic ascended place. For me, real spiritual growth is becoming appropriate for life, becoming appropriate for reality. In that development of competence and self-esteem, that's spiritual evolution. But you're right. For the victim, acknowledging the simplicity that's the last thing they want to do. So they unconsciously enjoy the mysteria and they enjoy telling themselves, it's so difficult. I don't know the answers. I don't know where to look. I don't know where I got to go next. When really it's very, very, very simple. You got to get your life in order and you got to start with the next most simple thing available to you and you know what that is. And to even like what you said or not in terms of like your three steps, to be honest and to look at your life. A lot of times the proof is in the pudding. How is your life? And if it's not how you want it to be, then maybe these philosophies, these ideologies that you've been conditioned with, you need to like take a hard look at them and go like, what is leading me towards this? What is guiding my action and my choices in my life? And where do I need to change? So I can then move closer towards the things I want and to feel the things that I want. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're all speaking in the exact same language. I think that's why we resonate with each other. And you know, one of the reasons I started my marketing agency was because I recognized during a time where there was increasing amount of intensity, there were people popping up that were daring to live their truth. And then I realized that's the only life worth living. That's it. That's the one. That's the one I get to pick every day. I think that's what empowers me. I don't think we live in a society that's like, well, how can I use this contrast to empower myself? I think we live in a society that says, oh, we've got all these hard things and we need to focus on all these people that are creating the hard things. And we need to feel terrible about why they're doing that to us. And it's like, well, no, because they're doing that to us, I'm able to find my tribe. I'm able to find purpose in my life. I'm able to live with intention and to create campaigns that bring community and that individual to its hero's journey. I mean, all of those things are only possible because of the contrast. And like you talk about Erasmus with the tension of opposites. If we didn't have the tension of opposites and people love, especially where I live in Byron Bay, they love to do the Kumbaya thing and like, oh, I don't know negative thoughts. No, no, no. Don't think negative. It creates negativity. And I'm like, no, you got to go into the belly of your shadow and look it in the eyes with an open heart. When you can do that, mate, you'll live in life. That's the hero's journey. That's slaying the dragon, being honest. That's being heroic. That's facing things head on. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the big part, which is what I loved about the course is like, where's your courage to be heroic? And that's an incredible formula for empowerment. And it's an incredible formula for figuring out the simplicity of like, okay, right. So if I'm here to be creative, let's get creative. Are you up for the challenge? Why are there so few and far stories between hero's journeys? It's because like we talked about this with Edmund Hillary who climbed Mount Everest. We talked about it and it was, we don't conquer the mountain. We conquer ourselves. It's one of my favorite. It's one of my, yeah, I think it's one of the best quotes. And that is exactly what we're talking about is, you know, what I've been creating the last few years is all around understanding that on a deeper level. Like I started off really inquiring into safety and why that sort of stamped me for a long time in my life. And then I realized, oh, safety, it's got so much to do with victim consciousness. It's got so much to do with what quality foods you eat, what quality of the life you live, how you treat your kids, how you treat your partner. Like everything surrounds safety. It's like when we're feeling unsafe, we tend to make decisions that aren't rational and we're not rational beings to start off with. So this idea that we should always think rationally is in itself, it doesn't make any sense to me. So I think if you look into data, we actually prefer people that have shown potential for success over proven success. That is our preference. That's been studied. So if we prefer the potential for success over proven success, that means there's something in that, that I guess drives risk. It drives this, I guess, this inner curiosity. And so because we have that innately, we have curiosity at such a fundamental level. What we do is we tend to park that. We go, I'll just park curiosity because I've got to be rational because my whole life I've been taught to be rational. When curiosity, I think starts the journey of the hero's journey. I think it's just that curious mind and then it develops. And I really enjoy speaking to people who are curious. And I've said that to you in our interview. I think the greatest way to create some of the most amazing conversations and you guys would know this, is ask questions, learn, uncover things. It's not just critical thinking. I think critical thinking has been given this all high and mighty kind of stature. Critical thinking, it starts with curiosity. So when we form more curiosity in our lives about ourselves, about others around us, about why things work in the world, I think that's your first step. That's an easy step to take. It's a simple step to take. Yeah. There's two things I want to comment on. One is when we talk about rationality, a lot of it's projected rationality and what a person thinks is rational. Whereas the heroic person, the person who is in tune with who they are, they may make a decision that seems irrational. To others. And yet, because it's connected to their inner truth, it ultimately does not end up being that way. And something that just came to me right now when you were talking about critical thinking, we also need critical feeling. Not just reacting in the moment, but being able to be critical with what's happening within us, with our bodies, with our feelings, to take in all the data that supports us into making decisions. Yeah. 100% agree with you. I want to, a little bit, I want to talk about from the outset, you seem like someone who, I guess, has things pretty well figured out. You're on your hero's journey. It feels like you're connected to purpose. You're leading an intentional life. And I'll be honest with you, when your astronauts and I saw your enrollment for Rise of the Herd come through, we were a little bit surprised. We were like, you know, we're not sure how Renate's going to receive this course, what there is, I guess, for her to take away, et cetera, et cetera, initially. But I guess, can you let us in on, I guess, what was the initial driver for you wanting to come and engage in that process? Yeah. So, you just talked about Erasmus critical feeling. So, I'd seen, and I'd obviously been following and supporting your work for some time. And honestly, it was just, I remember where I was when I made the purchase, because I was walking into my backyard and I just put down my phone in the living room. And for the same reason, I just thought, it's going to pick that thing up. Excuse me. And I thought, I took it outside and I went onto the Rise of the Herd, the promo piece that you were doing. And it was just this instant moment of drive. And I've had them quite a lot in my life, and I don't second guess them. It's not because I've critically thought it through and I've understood why I'm doing it and what I need from it. It's just this constant resonant feeling that I'm going through with my life. It's whether I'm resonating with somebody with an idea, I have people presenting ideas to me all week. I have people asking me to do presentations all week. And I've come to understand that what resonates with me is far more important than whatever I may be just critically understanding about the situation and why I'm feeling the thing that I'm feeling. And so, learning to trust that has been a big part of my journey. And what I was trying to get to within myself during that time is the somatic bodily experience of truth. I understood truth from a resonant level. I understood truth from what I felt like truth to me. But when I realized, oh, there's something missing for me. And that is like, how do I experience truth in my body? How do I go into that deeper layer of the relationship with myself? I've had great relationships with my community, with projects, with my relationships, like with my husband, with my kid. But there was the relationship with me wasn't as defined. If we could think of definition, it wasn't as defined as other areas of my life. And the way that I work is I tend to resonate with people that I believe are walking the hero's path. I've even seen, I've had a coach at one time, and I could feel energetically that she wasn't walking her hero's path. And it made it really hard for me because there was something missing in like, oh, okay, where are the others? Where are the others that are really on that path? They're not just doing the work to get the payments and doing the work because it literally is their life. It's like they create life out of that work. And that's what resonated with me. It was deeper feeling of recognizing that there's an acceptance in me that's missing from more of that bodily understanding of truth. And the layers that you guys presented in that course was so fantastic. I mean, it dispelled a lot of the ideas that I've felt, especially living in this area, were being projected on me constantly, which is, as I said, not to think negative thoughts, and you are not your body. You're not your thoughts or your feelings. You're the awareness behind it. And there was always something within me that just didn't resonate, even though there was so many around me that did. There was something in me that thought, why is my body feeling like that's not truth? And so there was some feeling when I read that post was like, I think there's an answer in there for me, or there's something in it for me. And I don't approach anything with, I know enough, I don't need to do it. I always feel, as I said, with curiosity, I always feel like if there's a resonant energy, if you could find out more, you could know more, I explore it. And a lot of people, they're quite surprised. I think they would have been surprised going, oh, I thought you had that stuff figured out. And it's like, no, I'm always figuring it out. And I'm always uncovering more truth. And I like to do that with people I resonate with. And so that was really the calling. And we talk about calling, I talk about calling on every interview that I do. It's like this inner calling, and we've replaced that with this idea of technology. But the inner calling is the one that I refer to constantly. Yeah. You know, even how you talk about things just relates to having a sacral authority, you know, from a human design standpoint, really honoring that inner knowing, that inner resonance. And, you know, I love having you on this journey with us and learning from you and growing with you. And, you know, you hit the nail on the head, like how can we remain humble to the fact that we don't effing know everything. There are so many points on this journey where there's an opportunity to dig deeper, to expand, to gain new awareness, and to use that on the hero's journey. So, yeah, just much respect to you. Yeah, it's definitely a marker of psychological health, in my opinion, to be able to be like, there's something more here. I need to honor that, even like beyond whatever projected identity might be out there, you know. So, yeah, totally. I guess just to ask, did you get what you came for? Yeah, I did. I think finding out more about who I am and loving what I find is, and it was beautiful to witness that in others, you know, to be feeling that within myself and witnessing that within others and seeing their transformation. I mean, that's part of why I love doing inner work is because it ripples. And when other people are doing that, it ripples back. And it's a beautiful relationship to have with yourself. And a lot of people feel that when they go on that journey, they're going to have to come face to face with their shadows. I mean, that much they know, they do know, like, oh, it's going to be hard or it's going to be challenging or it's going to be. And it's like, well, yeah, but do you really want the ease? You know, like this is the formula for life, ease. Is that your formula? Like everything you do has to feel easy, has to feel like we talked about at the beginning, has to feel downstreamy. And then when you realize that there's a room full of people that are prepared to go upstream, as I said, like, it's like your inner cheerleader is like, yes, let's do this, you know? Yeah. Listen, there's growth that can happen on our own, obviously, on this path. But this is the power of like connecting and community and group work is to be witnessed in transformation and to have that cheerleading and support. And that inner realization, like, I'm not alone. I think for a lot of people, they just think like, oh, no one's dealing with the things I'm dealing with. And yeah, on one level, sure. But then at the same time, there are universal things that we share with one another. And so, to be on a journey with people that also share your values too, which is I think, you know, with Joel and I and how we've put ourselves forward the last few years, like people know where we stand on a lot of stuff. And I think that's what's drawn certain people to us as opposed to just like, oh, we're coaches and we coach things. You know what I mean? So, it's been fun. I love doing it. And anyway, Joel, if you want to... And well, just on like the power of like group coaching, like most people learn through osmosis, you know? So, even just when you're on a group call with someone, there's someone else like experiencing like a powerful breakthrough. Like that resonance is felt throughout. And that resonance impacts, you know, wherever else those blockages might lie in other individuals who are hearing that. And yeah, I love it, man. Just, you know, because there's so many different contexts of the hero's journey and each of our unique lives. And being able to witness someone move from like psychological cloudiness, uncertainty, Mark, and just having these moments of incredible clarity, where it's like, what the fuck have I been doing? I know who I am. I know what I want. I'm ready to take that step. Yeah, it's just a blessing. It really, really is a blessing for sure. One of the exercises that I did was around like, it was thanks to Sophie because, you know, Sophie is so amazing as well with what she offers with orientation. And it was like, I actually went to the wall and, you know, the metaphor of a wall, okay? So, I'm looking at it as like something that constricts you or something that creates boundaries, right? So, I'm looking at this wall and I'm feeling like anger coming through my body. So, I start like pushing against the wall. And then I start using my knuckles and I start using my arms. And I'm like, oh my God, it's just like a release. I'm like, here's this physical thing that I'm always going around, never touching, never addressing. And it's just like, here's this experience of me and my body, this metaphor of a wall, and me having this moment of just like, what does this mean to me? Why am I pushing? Okay, what am I feeling in my hands? What am I feeling in my muscles? What's coming through my thoughts? Like what's raising my heart rate right now? And all of those layers of like, how we respond to walls and boundaries, constrictions, whatever the metaphor of the wall would be. But for me, that's what it was. And I felt like this incredible surge of like, oh, like release, truth, energy. Like, that's what we're doing. Everything that we do in life, whether it's, you know, these types of experiences with group coaching, or whether it's literally just standing there with the experience of a wall and recognizing all the ways in which we are on this kind of like somatic bodily experience to feel more. And so anything, I feel like anything that gets you away from feeling, absorbing, testing, regulating, all these things, if it's getting you away from that, it's usually an indicator for me that like, you know, a red flag, you know, that for me is a red flag when it comes to coaching. It's like, you know, you're not that, you're not seeing that, you're the awareness. No, I am feeling that. And it's an incredible experience to be here physically experiencing that. Yeah. How disrespectful, in my opinion, it is for someone to see you going through this experience and to feel like, to say it's an illusion. You know what I mean? And like, this somatic piece is so important. How much repressed impulse, impulses do human beings have? You know, that they haven't allowed to move through them, you know, especially around anger. And so the simple act like you explained of being able to be in touch with this life force energy, and then how does that impact your thinking? How does that impact how you take in your environment, how you respond to your environment? Like this is important work. And it's kind of new, relatively speaking, in the realm of personal development work is really coming to this subtle level of understanding of your body of sensations and bringing that awareness to the core of who you are. And it changed my life. You know, yeah, I love all the other stuff. It's nice to have philosophy and understanding of psychology and a lot of the intellectual stuff. But unless the work is grounded, it's incomplete, in my opinion. Yeah. And also this whole out of body is part of why I loved this course is because everything that I'm doing in that sort of tech space is all about bringing people back to their bodies, because it's such an obvious anti-human experience when you're constantly stuck in that vortex where all of life is happening and the participation is there for you to have. And we go, oh, I need a break. I need to just get on my phone. I just need to zonk out. It's like, you're not actually zonking out of life. You're just using the hands as blunt instruments and basically just, you're still in life. You're just, you're not present. You're not, you know, like when we give children a device, the spontaneous parts of life, they can't see them anymore because they've just got this narrow focus that now becomes so ingrained in them. We can't experience it in this kind of peripheral vision. We've got to create more narrow viewpoints of life. And this is what I said to you guys last time. It's like, I see myself standing on a mountain. I see Joel, I see Erasmus standing on a mountain, and we're all looking at the mountain from different positions and perspectives, but we're able to communicate those perspectives and positions. And I think that's what makes it so enjoyable. That's what makes life for me so, I guess, people look at me and they often say, oh, you're always vibrating. And I'm like, as in, like, I'm radiating or whatever. And my surname is Strahlhofer, which means radiates into the sun. And, you know, it's so funny because I met my husband on Magnetic Island and I work with electromagnets. It's just all kind of, you know, you can look at all of this stuff and just go, wow, like it can blow your mind. Yeah. There's something in that. There's totally something in that, but yeah, sorry, keep going. Yeah. So, you know, I don't believe that you are solely responsible for everything that happens in your life. I do believe that things come and how you respond is your responsibility. So, that's your piece, right? So, there's a lot of things going on in the world, but it's like, how do I make a story out of that? How do I make purpose out of that? How do I create meaning, life, existence from what I know? And so, because naturally I'm curious, naturally, I like to seek information. That's just part of my makeup. I go on this journey and go, okay, so there are things that can throw me into all these types of emotions. But it's like, you know, when it came to the tech space, I said to myself like, okay, I've been building these bridges and helping people understand that, you know, the nefarious parts of technology that we have to aware of as an ex-Telco marketer. But I'm like, well, what do I really want out of this? Do I really want to be educating people and using technology more safely? Sure, I've done that for a number of years, but what if I take it one step further? What would my journey, this is selfish, right? What would my journey look like if I actually go into like, how do people live life lively? How do people actually experience life and participate in a way that is like, fuck yes, you know, like, how do I get that emotion into people? Because when I'm noticing like my, you know, so many people around me are like constantly on this buzz of technology and they can't get out of this vortex. I'm like, the antidote is participating in life and like valuing, balancing that out. How do you balance that out? Well, let me talk to inspirational people that know how to do that. Let's talk about all the ways in which there are products and services all over the world that create sacred places, spaces, and moments for us, right? So, why don't we tap into that? And then I thought, that's the path I want to walk on right now. So, I created an app because I was like, all right, that's a conundrum. That's a humility piece. Here I am thinking I'm getting people off devices, creating an app to help them, meet them where they are and go, hey, I can help you understand how to create healthy digital habits so you can balance offline and online. Let's go on this journey together. And that's living life lively. And so, that's what I get to do now because if I'm on my own hero's path and I keep recognizing what my values are, then I start realizing, oh, wow, like there are more people with those values. Let me cater to that minority because that's fun and that's engaging and that makes my life feel like exciting. So, these are the conversations that we often have. It's like rather than, you know, when you spoke about this during the course, like it's actually very true and it's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow is that most people don't know how to be happy for you. So, therefore, you have to be happy for yourself. Like it's a pretty easy formula, right? So, if you recognize, oh, you know what, me, Joel and Erasmus have got this podcast, we're in the top 1%. How many of you are like, fuck yeah, right? Because the idea is not for other people to be happy for you. The idea is be happy for yourself and you find your people because they're the ones that are supporting, listening, watching, leaving reviews and all the things, right? So, that's part of like why we go through this system where like you get an A and you want an A plus or, you know, this rewards and punishment model of living. And we're constantly seeking that sort of external validation when what we're really wanting is that natural state in us, which is the creative potential state to really flourish. And then those people that understand and can resonate with that flourishing nature, they just find you anyway. Like it's just by law. So, it doesn't matter who you have in your life. The idea is that when you access your creative potential, you find the others. It's like you say, Joel, it's like there's two reasons that animals call out in the wild. Is that right? It's like to find their tribe and to alert danger. And to repel the others, to repel those that aren't meant for them. There you go. And that's natural. So, I feel that the more you go and you hear us pass, it's like you become less people-pleasing. And that's hard for people. Like they've been raised to believe the more people you please, your parents, your family, your boss, your partner, your kids, whatever, that it's like it'll give you something. It's like it takes it away. It shreds. After a period of time, it's like you see it paralyzes people. And that's why I think we're all on this, the last few years has really brought us this interconnected web of independent entrepreneurial spirit thinkers to find each other is because it's resonant energy. When people say, when people ask me, how was this course? I've taught a lot of people about this course. I'm like, mate, if it resonates with you, you've got to do it. Just feel into it. I don't need to tell you about all my experiences, although I can, but just feel into it. Do you feel that thing that calls you to it? Because when we tap into that, we don't really need as many words. We don't really need as many explanations. It's like we've lost the ability to tap into that peace, that empowered peace in us that's like, oh, I've been born with this guidance system. Fuck, that's amazing. Let me just listen to that. Mic drop. But it's true. It's true. We've become disconnected from this wisdom in our bodies that has so much for us that can help guide us. And many people, they override that with overly thinking or distorted thinking. When it's like deep down, they get that hit, they get that knowing and what they need to do, what they need to say, what the next step is. And the more you live your truth and honor yourself, that is the law, the right situations, the right people, the circumstances, they're going to come into your path. Yeah. But the reality is we need help, we need to take action, and it requires will on our part to move towards clarity. For so many people, they're just sitting there in that well of confusion and disconnection and having outsourced their authority, just thinking one day clarity is going to come out of nowhere. One day, all these illusions will be shed and then I'll have the answers and I'll know what I want and I'll go do it. You have to be really honest with yourself. Hey, I'm confused. I actually don't know what it means to live life appropriately. Things have never really felt coherent and congruent and fulfilled for a long period of time. So then in that space, when you're asking me the questions, when the curiosity is coming up, it's like, all right, what do I need to do? And then that's when you're given the opportunity to really pay attention to that inner truth and own it. And the more you honor it, the more you honor it, the stronger, the more reciprocal it becomes and it gets. That's the only way out of this. I think may I have your attention has to be one of the most important questions we overlook. Because in life, whether it's people around us or whether it's on tech or anywhere, people are vying for attention. And what you just described, Joel, as well, is like, I often refer to this when I'm explaining this to clients. It's like, how will you know, you go into a cafe and you've never been to that cafe before. And there's this muffin that looks amazing. And you go, well, I asked, how will you know before you finish that muffin if it's delicious? So, the answer is, you cannot know. And that's how we build ideas. It's around the sense that people will pay with their attention, their trust, their money before they know. And that's built into the idea that we're making a promise. So, we promise you that if you give us your time, your attention, your money, your trust, you will get something. And that's exactly what hooks directly into the changes that we seek to make because change isn't perfect. And so, that means that you literally go to whatever idea you have, whatever product, whatever service you have, the first thing you're asking is, may I have your attention? And that you've got to be really careful if you do want to give attention or if you don't want to give attention. And these are the questions that people are just giving attention to things constantly. They're not challenging the status quo. They're like, I've had that muffin before, I'm going to have the same muffin again or whatever it may be, right? And the secret to leadership is so, again, simplicity. It is do what you believe in, paint a picture and go there. I don't know how else or what better way to describe it. It's like, if you want to create ideas and you want to have the confidence to actually go on that path, it's as simple as saying, go there. Try the muffin. You don't actually know. That's the hero's journey. That's what makes it so exciting is that hero is going not because he knows where he's going. He doesn't know what ends up happening on that journey. He goes because he doesn't know. And so, that's what disrupts agendas. This is why vision is so important is because you have to have an idea of where you're going. You have to have an idea where you're putting your attention. And so, that's the indicator of whether or not you're going to go there. The forces of mediocrity and all that story stuff, that's true. They're not going to forge any errors to try to get in your way. Yeah. Well, that attention piece, that's the primary investment that we make. And we seem to be the least discerning when it comes to that. We offer it freely to everyone or everything that might ask the question. And when you're in that state of constantly licking your attention, how are you possibly then placing that into growing something that's fruitful? So yeah, I like the analogy. Now, a short break from the episode. What's up, everybody? If you're listening to this as soon as it's been released or shortly thereafter, in two days' time on the 19th of December at 2PM PST, we are hosting our first ever Here For The Truth Community Virtual Hangout. This is a call that's free and open to all our listeners. We want to meet you guys. We want to connect. We want to get deep. We want to laugh. So hit the link in the show notes, and you'll be sent to the Zoom link. And all you have to do is press the Zoom link at 2PM on the 19th of December PST, and you're going to see us, and we're going to meet you, and we're going to connect and have lots of fun. For the Aussies, that will be the following day. Please use a time and date converter for your local time. But all the information is in the show notes, and it's going to be loads of fun. We'd love to see you. [Speaker 3] (40:31 - 40:32) Back to the episode. [Speaker 1] (40:33 - 1:17:15) Where do you think things are heading with technology? Obviously, technology's not going anywhere. And yet, how do we use it to our benefit? Yeah. AI's not going anywhere. There's no point beating the system over the head being like, fuck, and ban AI. Yeah. And even you were talking about in your previous life, or you were speaking more out about the dangers of technology, and yet you created this app to bring more consciousness around how we live our lives, and yet through technology as well. So maybe talk a little bit more about Lively, and just talk more about how technology can be used to support us, as opposed to just being this all-encompassing evil against people. Yeah. Because when I hear live life lively, I feel like that can be replaced. It might be the case with you. What it's saying is live life intentionally. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So look, we're talking about it's not going anywhere. Well, technology's always going somewhere. It's always developing. And we talked about this last time. If these technologies are amplifying, then I guess the human experience has to amplify with it, right? Because that's ultimately the game here. It's like the tension of opposites we talked about. It's like there is a lot more technology that's coming when I express it and when I explain it, which I did many times. But the online world, it can be fulfilling. Like you said, it can help us find our tribe. Absolutely. We share all kinds of passions, interests, and all those meaningful moments with people that get us that does not need to change. But the question is, if you're looking at your life and you're saying, all right, connections now become more about being online than being with those closest to me. When did looking up and looking out, like I talked about before, become the exception and not the norm? When did multitasking become multiscreening, not living in the moment, not sharing, playing, learning? These are the questions that now, again, simple questions. And this is the simplicity piece I keep coming back to. Because for young people, there's so much pressure within their connected worlds that if they're not there, what will they miss? What will others say? How can they live without it? But the reality is, what are they actually missed? Do you remember, Joel, we talked about the whale watching and you said they actually didn't watch the whales because they were too busy trying to capture the whales on their phone. They missed the real thing. There's that side of it, of course, and it takes a tiny toll every day. And that leads to constant comparisons. And not to say that comparisons is all, it's not a bad thing necessarily, right? Because it makes you level up on certain levels, right? But striving for unattainable perfection online, these fractions of other people's lives that don't even tell a complete story. So people just scroll and they swipe and they search for the next hit of validation and approval in this cycle that just doesn't end. And then what about parents? It's even more of a minefield because they're making their way through these online experiences and they're trying to protect and guide their kids through this world. And it gets complicated. But the role of technology in our everyday lives is about finding ways to have those experiences that do create the tribes and the countless marvels that do enhance our lives like we're doing this podcast. But it's the simple act, I believe, of cutting down, not cutting out and striking the balance. So it's the intentional use of technology, which is what Lively's all geared towards, right? So that's what we're here to help people do and rediscover that things that really matter, that give you the tools that bring you back to life, literally, right? So that's the best of both worlds. And you can live life lively. You don't need to sacrifice, we talked about this in the course, for me to be digitally, I don't know, awarded, I have to be offline. It's like, no, we can intentionally use technology just like we intentionally participate in life. So we're bringing more intentionality into that. And therefore, we're speaking to experts all around the world from neuroscientists. One neuroscientist that I interviewed, she was hilarious, Dr. Erin Clabo. And I asked her how many unread emails she has in her inbox. And I was expecting, I don't know, 10, 20. She goes, you've got these cute little dimples. And she's like, 99,000. And I was like, 99,000 emails. And she goes, yeah, that's like digital clutter. And she said, it's not my job to clear out the mess they've made in my inbox. Because attention is our greatest resource. I'm going to spend it on clearing out my inbox. And it was like reframed my mind, because I'm thinking digital declutter is all about getting rid of the clutter. And she's just like, no, I'm parking that, that's not my job to do. And so I thought that was really fascinating, because the way in which we understand the world of technology is different person to person. But the interviews I've had with interior designers, with chefs, I've interviewed both of you as well. It's like, I get to experience the world of living life lively from all those different perspectives of the mountain. And I think that because we've all got these incredible interconnected, this web of life that we get to live, we get to understand not just our own understanding of the way we live our lives, but how fascinating, and you guys know this as coaches, how fascinating is it to understand the world and the way somebody else sees their life? And if they're living life lively, there are tools in that that can teach other people. It doesn't matter. I've done so many interviews, I can't even begin to tell you how different they were in terms of how they understood their participation in life and their relationship with technology. And I think that's beautiful. I think that's how we learn. I'm learning just by doing these interviews, I'm learning and then I'm creating blogs out of it. And I'm creating content that I really love sharing about it. Is technology making us fat? I'm like, I don't care, I don't hold back. All these people are like, well, don't say fat. I'm like, oh, I'm going to say fat. If people don't know, literally on the Vox Pops, cannot remember the last time they sat on their couch without a device. I'm like, you can't remember the last time you sat on your couch without a device? No, it's been at least 10 years or more. And so we can have these funny, engaging conversations. And there's really funny statistics that go with it. Two million people a year drop their phones down the toilet. 90% of people take their phones to the bathroom. And when we're doing this with Vox Pops, it was hilarious. People were just like, there was one woman and a guy on a date and they were an older couple, like in their 50s. And I said, we asked them, do you take your phone to the toilet? And she was like, oh, that's disgusting. And he was like, so it made it for some funny conversations. But we tap, swipe, and click our phones 2,600 times a day. 2,600 times a day. And when we ask people on the streets, what do you think it is? They're like, oh, it's easily in the hundreds. And I was like, 2,600. And their faces like, what? It's like average four to five hours a day. So what I realized doing these Vox Pops on the streets is people don't actually understand their usage. They don't understand how they're using technology. They're just doing it. It's the same with life. They're just doing life. They're not understanding how they're doing it, they're doing it. Like Simon Sinek, which is like, I don't know if you guys know who he is, but he talks about, you start with the why. And I actually think you start with the who. The who comes out to the why, the why comes out to the how and the what. And so when we start with who we're interacting with and how they look at life, it's a really fascinating conversation to have. And so the same with technology is the same with life. I don't think we treat technology any different than we treat life. If we're using it to distract ourselves, then we're using life to distract ourselves. You know what I mean? And so it's interconnected. Yeah. I love that. I have 62,000 unread emails in my inbox and yet my wife has to always clear it down. She just doesn't understand it. So we're so different there. I don't know if it's her Virgo nature, but it's pretty funny. Overall, it's a negative nature. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. But yeah. It's such an important thing. And I think it's only going to become more prevalent, particularly as time goes on. And one thing that I've found which has helped me, in the past, I'd use an app blocker like Opal or something. But then it's like, I'm using technology to mask technology. And then I was given the advice to log out. And when I finished using the social media apps, I log out. And you know how amazing it feels to be logged out? To be logged out of Facebook, out of Instagram, out of Twitter. I felt like that was the best I've ever slept when my psyche knew that I wasn't even logged in. So even if it's just a weird feeling, there was so much peace that came with that. And I find myself so many times now during the day, pressing one of the apps, realizing I'm logged out. And instead of wasting the five minutes scrolling that I usually would, it's like, all right, just swipe out of that app and close it. So it's been a sweet little hack for me, personally, for sure. Yeah. I'll give you another hack that you both will like, because this one was so popular as part of our beta test for the app. And that was diving into the world of Grayscale. Have you ever used Grayscale on your phone? Yeah, I have. Yeah. Dan Coe gave me that one. It's a game changer. So you've got to, like you said, Joel, you've got to picture your phone and those apps. And it's literally like wandering through a tempting lolly shop. It's really vibrant. All those distracting views, all of those things, it's captivating. And they're not just pretty colors because they're designed to toy with your emotions. Colors toy with your emotions. And so they call us to break our concentration at any given moment. Oh, that color, whatever it is. And so to change the game, you go into your color filters and you activate the Grayscale settings for half a day. And you just, that's all you have to commit to is like half a day. And it's transformative because it's like, it's shedding the candy appeal. You know, your device has turned, you know, going into these like serene kind of like fairyland havens. And then suddenly it's like, oh, this is like, this is great. This isn't as like, you know, Willy Wonka-ish, you know? So these are the types of things, you know, when we understand that we can have deliberate interactions with devices, we can sort of like, you know, if you're not going to go shopping, I don't know, if you prefer to do your food shopping at a farmer's market or whatever it is, you notice there's a difference in how you digest the food and how you enjoy the food. It's the same with technology. You know, if we understand we can have a different relationship with technology, it's a healthier thing. It's always a good thing to understand. We have a society that's like, everything has to be photographed. You know, you have a beautiful meal in front of you, you've got to take that photo. And, you know, these are the kinds of things that we ask, you know, in our conversations with people is like, what about like a screen-free selfie? People go, what's a screen-free selfie? You know, like it's like taking a selfie without a screen. It's like literally there's 32% of teenage girls, the Wall Street Journal was talking about, that feel worse about themselves due to social media. So, if there's time for a different kind of selfie, like why don't you grab a mirror, find a quiet corner and just appreciate you. You know, you give yourself a big genuine smile, no likes, no filters, just the real raw you and you keep that image in your heart instead of in a feed. You know, and sometimes it's really good to remember that we're more than what's on the screen. A lot of people interact with us on screens, especially us three, because we're in different parts of the world, but it's like, where are those moments where you see yourself beyond the technology, beyond the email that you wrote or the picture that you sent or the heart emoji that you sent? It's like, we have to see ourselves beyond that world because right now, the way the trajectory of this technology is going is for you to associate so deeply with technology that you don't even recognize yourself in the real world. Yep. Yeah. So many people, like there's the thought immediately, I got to do it for the gram, I got to do it for the gram, I got to take the picture, I got to do the thing. Like that's just at a person's like base level now with all this technology. And not to say there's like, there's no gratification in sharing an awesome photo of your food with your friends. But again, we're talking about intentional use, you know? Like we had an episode recently with Nathaniel Salas talking about dopamine. And I think we asked him, how do we change the world or something? And he goes, don't bring your phone to the toilet, you know? And even you said that earlier, like when I'm on the toilet sometimes, and I'm on my phone, I'm trying not to now, but this habit's still there. Like sometimes when I turn around, I have the thought, I can't drop this, I can't drop this into the toilet. Like, okay, I got to move it from over the toilet. Like I'm consciously being like, don't drop my phone in the toilet. So wild that 2000 people a year, you said, dropped their phone? A million. A million. That is insane. Yeah. Right. Dads around the world take their phone to the toilet to get that 10 minutes. Yeah, no, they get it. They get some alone time. They're actually more at risk of hemorrhaging because they're sitting for too long. When that dead leg kicks in. Because you're there for 30 minutes, you know? When that dead leg kicks in, you know it's been too long. Yeah. Exactly. But the other thing is- Like following from the other room, you know? Yeah. We talk about fubbing. So I asked people if they know what fubbing is. Can you guys guess what fubbing is or do you know what it is? I mean, it sounds sexual to me, but what is it? People go straight to sexual. It's incredible. Joel, do you want to have a guess? No. So when I asked people, they're like phone rubbing. And I was like, no, it's phone snubbing. Basically, you're with someone and you're in the middle of a conversation and they just get their phone out and just start scrolling, checking. And it's become so common, it's in the dictionary. So fubbing, like life unfubbed is what we tend to refer to. It's like, oh, wow, it's become normal to just have your phone and just grab it in the middle of conversation. Yeah. So like the no fap movement, we need a no fub movement. That's correct. Yeah. Me too, fub me. So yeah, there's 66% of mobile phone users around the world that have what's called nomophobia, which is literally no mobile phone phobia. Like they start to panic, have real panic when they've either left their phone at home or in the car or they can't find it or there's no reception or they can't respond to someone's messaging. So it causes a lot of anxiety because we tend to think of these devices as an extension of ourselves. And so when most people are checking their phones every 12 minutes, like throughout the entire day, and 70% of people sleep with their phones right next to their bed, they use it as an alarm, they sleep with it all night and there's like 900 pulses a minute from that thing. And then they're like, oh, I didn't get a good night's sleep. And I'm like, well, maybe take the phone out of your room, like start with that, turn your wifi off at night. You literally can break a habit, like 28 days of turning your wifi off, you'll do it on the 29th without even thinking about it. You know, there are 20% of people aged 18 to 34 that are having, this is going to sound crazy to you guys, but they're having, they're using their smartphones during sex. I don't mean like they're videoing their intimate moments, they're checking their phones. No way. Yes. What percentage was this? 20%. If you're aged between 18 to 34 and your phone pings, dings or notifies you, you'll grab it during sex. Oh, that. Okay. Okay. I mean, I get that. It's still intense, but I thought it was just like, like, Hey, I'm just scrolling through my Instagram feed. Turn around, baby. Hold on. But it's what I'm saying is like, you're flubbing during sex. You know, it's ridiculous. That's crazy. So this is, I guess, what's rewiring brain chemistry and the certain, I guess, pleasures of life. I mean, I get it if you're like 18. Oh baby, my mom's coming home. Let me check my phone. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting what you said before, because something Sophie kind of introduced me to based on her research is that there's this idea that like anything that you come in contact with, your brain maps it as being a part of you. It like, I don't know if she calls it a peripersonal space. Peripersonal space. Peripersonal space. So, you know, think about when you're driving a car and you go under a tunnel, go under a bridge, like you lower your head, even though your head isn't in danger, but your brain has mapped the whole car. So again, with your phone, it's, what do we touch more than our phone? I don't, not much these days. I think everyone's on their phone all the time. So to not have your phone, it's like you're missing a limb, like something's been cut off of you. Yeah. And that's why screen time is, it's actually the third most frequent source of conflict between parents and teens is like, get off the phone, get off the screen. And so I mean, to make it quite like serious for a moment, the difference for teenagers who spend five hours a day on their devices, they're 71% more likely to be at suicide risk than those that spend one hour a day. The difference between one hour and five hours of usage a day for a teenager increases suicide risk by 71%. This is why teens, I think the statistics are quite profound, but it's like 40% of teens, they feel completely overwhelmed by the number of notifications they're receiving daily. They feel this constant pressure to respond because they feel like, oh, they're going to be disappointing their peers. And these pings, these dings, it's not always fun. It also causes a lot of anxiety. So these are the types of conversations that we're having to have more and more as time goes on. Because in the last few years, the proliferation of this technology, like 25 iPads in one classroom with wifi turned on, on kids' laps for hours in the day. And so these conversations have to happen. They're only going to happen more and more, not because technology is going away, but because intentional use of technology is coming up, it's going to become bigger. And so this is why we do this work, is because we want to create more conversation, not around removing technology, but how do we use it safely? How do we use it with more purpose and intention? And how do we make sure that these statistics are not going to get higher and higher? Yeah. For the parents out there, even specifically with toddlers, what is the appropriate use? Many kids now have iPads, they have iPad games, gives mum and dad a chance to do something for an hour, cook, clean, or whatever else needs to be done around the house. What, in your opinion and in your research and your experience, is appropriate usage? At what age should it begin? For how long? Et cetera. Yeah. Oh, look, I don't like to give people a 411 on when you should start, how long you should use for and all those things. What I tend to say is, honestly, when it comes to parenting, we as parents, we can see when our child is zonked out. And it's so clear on their eyes, it's just like, they're not here, they're not there. And it's like, they're not experiencing, it's not experienced in a healthy way. I think you can watch a movie together as a family and have a really beautiful experience. There are ways that we can do that where it's really, it creates beautiful, cherished memories and moments, right? We definitely even talk about that at Lively, is having a movie night, right? But where I think parents need to, this is paying attention. This is the problem, is that parents, because they're so warped in their own addictions, they're unable to pay attention when their kids are struggling. So, I don't actually think it starts with the kids. I think it starts with the parents. I think the parents are more heavily addicted than children. And part of any addiction is people passing it on. Oftentimes, it's like, oh, I'm not addicted. And then the kid starts to feel like they can't get the attention from the parents. So, maybe if they're on the device and they're not listening to the parent, then the parent will like, hey, I'm talking to you. Hey, I'm asking you something. It's the projection of the same thing. And so, we end up repeating cycles. So, what I definitely, what I will give as a tip is we can't constantly be outdoors with our kids. I get it. We've got to cook, we've got to clean, we've got to put things away. I get it. All those things. I'm a parent as well. So, what I definitely encourage is, this is going to sound radical, boredom. Kids are not used to boredom. All right? And I tell you what, when you get bored, you get so creative. I've seen it with my own kid. He's like, oh, mom, can I, because I go to Ollie's house because I know Ollie, our neighbor, he's allowed to watch devices. And I go, why don't you bring Ollie over here? So, Ollie comes and they play and they do, like, we work it out with the neighbors. So, we get creative with the neighbors because we're all kind of like thinking the same thing at the moment. And then we allow them to get bored. And I tell you what, they start creating cubby houses, they go outside, like the things that they're capable of doing. This is the problem we have in society is like, oh, boredom, you know, there's not enough fun. It's like, oh, that's negative thing. It's like, no, boredom is great. Sit with boredom, understand what you're feeling in that space, see what happens with boredom. And almost every time I noticed that when kids around, even my nephews and nieces, we get together as seven kids, I'll create situations where they're kind of bored and see what happens. And it's always ends up being something enjoyable, fun, and interactive. It's not always screaming and tantrums. The screaming and tantrums usually happen because they want a device, not because they are bored. It's because they're like, oh, you've always filled my gap with a device and now you're not giving it to me. So, this is sort of like, okay, well, what do you do? What do you do when these things aren't available? What did we do when we didn't have devices growing up? We got creative. We went on the streets. We played with our neighbors. We built things. We asked to participate in the kitchen. My kid comes up to me, asks me to help fold laundry. He does it really badly, but I let him do it. I'm like, oh, this is fantastic. Thank you. So, I don't want to limit what we can do if we allow spontaneous boredom to just happen. Yeah. And really, it's only boredom because we're so used to the Candyland. Without the Candyland, it's just reality, right? You're just being. But now, in contrast to the so much options for the dopamine firing around us, we call it on board. Yeah, this is so true. I mean, what we're doing with Lively is we're creating what's called a digitally conscious movement. So, you're not taking yourself off device. You're just being more conscious of like, oh, geez, that's how it participates in my life. That's how I participate in real life, in real world events. And so, noticing both is as equally as important. We're just focused on your online usage. Focus on online, offline, focus on both. And when you have that focus, when you're actually paying attention, again, paying attention, this whole world is built on perception. We talked about that in our first interview. It's like one of our favorite things to talk about is like the way you perceive the world is the way you interact with the world. If you're seeing something as more exciting, it's because something in you feels and believes that that is more exciting. Or if you feel that that is a better option for your child, explain it. Explain it to the child. It's amazing what happens when you have just really incredibly open and honest dialogue with kids. And a lot of parents, they just think, I'm not going to explain things they want to understand. They do understand. They understand a lot more than we give them credit for. And so, this idea of like when you're on a device, you're more quiet, right? So, you're not talking when you're on a device. As a parent, if you're distracted by a device, you're doing less communicating. So, people go, I'm communicating online. Yeah, but you're not communicating offline. That's what keyboard warriors are all about. It's like, oh, I'll say everything I have to say online. And then you meet them in person. They're like a frog. Nothing that comes out. And so, we've just become full of words online and expressing ourselves in the real world has become much harder. And this is actually a statistic for kids. They're finding that they don't even want to participate in the real world. Teenagers are struggling. Even 20-year-olds are struggling since COVID to actually have social interactions. They've got such anxiety. They want to go back to being online. And they'd rather message their mates than meet up with them. You guys remember a time when someone would just visit your house with their entire family, like unannounced. You'd be sitting there, 6pm, the doorbell rings. It's like, oh, there's 4 people who's coming to visit me. That feels like an ancient era. And that was just never going to happen anymore. Now, you see the memes going around. I never answer the phone, just text me, etc, etc. But it's crazy how time has moved on because of the advent of technology. There's no space for non-caller IDs. It's like the rock up energy. It's like, pick up the phone and see who it is and rock up to someone's house. And maybe we've got to bring that back. Maybe we have to have a one day a year event where we're surprising our friends and family at the door. Make that the Valentine's Day. You know what I mean? I feel like now if I hear the door ring, I'm like, I need to go grab a gun or something. It's so foreign to even have that. I'm not expecting someone. No one texted me. No one said they're coming over. No one called me before to let me know what's going on. Well, it's definitely a lot less spontaneous, which I guess is another symptom of increased use of technology in society. All our arrangements, all our meetings need to be planned, need to be prepped. I need to be ready. I need to have the right amount of time. I need to then have it scheduled so I can do the thing afterwards, etc, etc, etc. There's a lot more rigidity in our days as a result of it. And at the same time, there's a benefit to that. We can coordinate, organize, plan, systemize, make the best use of our time better. But it's definitely spontaneousness in general has taken a big hit. Yeah. We talk about understanding that FaceTime and FaceTime, they're both part of our lives. Remind someone, kissing someone on the cheek is not the same as sending a kiss on the screen. It's a great substitute. I think that's a really healthy way to look at it. I think technology is amazing for certain substitutes. If we could be together, the three of us in a room, we would opt for that. It's a great option to have this online experience, right? But the minute we start to see this as the first option or the best option or the top highest option, I think that's where we start to move towards that whole avatar. Avatar the movie was all about how people were celebrating in the cinema. I remember sitting there. It's like 10, 12 years ago. I can't even remember how long ago it was. But I remember people celebrating the cinema that he gave up his humanness to go and be an avatar in this meta. And it's like, wow, you did it. You went there. And I was literally the only person with my husband in the whole cinema. We were looking at each other going, holy shit, this is what's coming. This is what's people are so disengaged with the human experience that they're like, upload me up into the cloud, please. So yeah, FaceTime or FaceTime. There's great substitutes and the participation in life is really what we're all coming back to. It's like, how do you feel into your experience of the world? You're not going to experience yourself. You will experience yourself offline and online. So there are things that I say online, I'm like, oh, in reflection, I'm like, probably wouldn't have said that if it was 2023 as opposed to 2019. So I understand how great of a mirror it is because it is a screen. At the end of the day, it's a mirror. So it does project back. That's what screens do. So in that kind of metaphoric way, it's quite fascinating to look at it that way. But when I talked to Charles Eisenstein, he talked about the substitutes in life. And I think that intimacy and all these things that we're craving, when we're getting it in an unhealthy way, it does start to translate into, we can actually physically see it in the real world as well. People are so disengaged. You can tell when people are engaged in life and when they're not. Which I guess is part of the fun. How do you bring people back to life? It's pretty simple. It's right here. It's always here. For people to come back to life, for me, psychologically, it's really very simple, but it's super important, which is we need to make sure that for as long as possible, we're comfortable with the pain of reality, with the pain that comes with the responsibility. Because if we get into this cloud and into this comfort bubble and we accept the insidious offering that is, here's a pain-free life, here's the escape mechanism, you don't have to worry about a thing, then we're lost. That's where we lose the fight. That's where we lose the battle. But the more that we can make ourselves comfortable with dealing with even the mundanity of reality at times, the boredom of reality, the general day-to-day pain, the legitimate suffering, as Carl Jung put it, then to me, that is the antidote to technocracy. Yeah. I absolutely agree. We had these delicious coconut balls that my girlfriend made when we were doing Vox Pops and we asked people if they could chew it 15 times, give it a try. And we did it because that's actually better for our digestion. The more we chew. So we're not actually chewing on technology, we're swallowing it whole. And the fact is, is that our bodies digest information the same way we digest food. That's been proven through so many scientific papers. And so because there's 2.5 quintillion bytes, haha, bytes of data every single day, that's a lot for us to digest. So that's why people are suffering real physical effects from not digesting information. And when we're going online and we're binge screening, which is the same as binge eating, what do you think is happening to that person? There's the power of a pause, the power of digestion, the power of slowing down. Technology is not designed to slow you down. Technology is, and will always be designed to speed things up. And so to take a break from technology is heroic. I tell you, that's why it felt so good to you, Joel, because you were like, whoa, I'm in control now. It's heroic because you're constantly at the mercy of speed. And so we had people chew on a coconut ball and they were laughing. And then they realized like, oh, I don't even take the time to digest this device, this information. Yeah. Well, I mean, in German medicine, it's called indigestible morsel conflict. And this goes well beyond simply just digesting food. So whenever we struggle to digest anything psychologically or any information we're receiving through a phone, it can lead to the same kind of conflict. So yeah, it is correct. Yeah. And it's lonely. I don't want to discount the fact that being on a device is oftentimes like a lonely experience. And that's what the statistics are showing. It's like, there's like, I think it was like 30%, I read that 30% of people worldwide today classify themselves as lonely. 30%, right? Now they probably have a lot of Facebook followers or Instagram or all of those things. And this is, I guess the Maslow, whatever hierarchy of needs, right? Is this whole place of placing things like belonging is right at the top, like food and water, because we are constantly craving, searching for connection in our lives. And oftentimes if we're being super uncomfortable, it's because we're looking for it in all the wrong places. And that's what people I think get wrong. They go, I don't have the connection. And I go, but are you looking for it in the wrong place? And if you had that chance to offer advice to your younger self, it's amazing what people start to uncover, what advice they'd give themselves on their journey if they were 10 years younger. And then they realize like, oh, I would have spent more time with my brother and sister or all these kind of like, again, coming back to what are those connections that you really, really nurture and love and feel in life? And what are you using technology for as a Band-Aid? It's like putting a Band-Aid on a tumor, right? Like there's something that's breeding and making you unhealthy and you're putting a Band-Aid on it. And so it's like- Yeah. Do you have some foundational connection with yourselves? Is that even present in the first place? Like, sorry to cut you off your For me, like I crave solitude, you know, like that 10 minute walk to the gym, you know, two or three times a week, like that's my reprieve. Like I can't wait to have those moments to like self-talk and self-dialogue and to reflect and whatnot. So like what's, even lonely, like is that the wrong word sometimes for many people? I don't know. No, I think that's not the wrong, I think lonely is like people that are looking for it in all wrong places. That's the lonely. But I think I'm the same, Joel. Like if I get solitude every day, like I'm a better person for it. Like I need at least an hour a day where I am completely alone and doing something for myself. And I think that's the difference. Yeah. I think aloneness is different than loneliness. You know, being alone versus feeling lonely is just has a different feel to it. Yeah. And it also just wanted to say as well, like, you know, how long it takes us, like when we're like taken out of the moment. So like we're creating moments in our lives every day. Right. And so some people are just like, oh, that moment presented itself. Great. At some moments we're creating. Great. But when we're in a moment and there's a ping or a ding or a notification, do you know, it takes us 23 minutes to refocus after that interruption. And that's what pisses me off because I was like, oh, I was in the middle of them. You know, you have 19 tabs open and then it's like, blah, blah, blah. It's just, it's relentless. And so part of our frustration with technology is that we're unable to focus because that it's designed to kind of like just take you out of that and then 23 minutes to come back and refocus. It's like, it's a long time. Yeah. There are times where I have the intention of going to my email on my phone to do a thing, but then I noticed I have a text and then I'm going down that rabbit hole and then I'm on Instagram and then I'm like, fuck, I gotta, I gotta check that email. 20 minutes, 30 minutes, sometimes longer. [Speaker 2] (1:17:16 - 1:17:16) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:17:16 - 1:32:56) And then, then, then he realizes, holy shit, this whole time I've been on Zoom with Joel, we're supposed to be working. I remember what I wanted to say before was how, I don't think anyone on their deathbed is going to be like, I wish I spent more time on my phone, you know, just to have that perspective. You know, people bring up that scenario often, but no, it is like, oh man, I wish I'd scrolled through one more reel. Oh, one reel that I missed 20 years ago. Like, no, it's like, I wish I spent more time like looking at my, you know, child in the face or, you know, spent time like with my father, you know, who was about to pass away or, you know, insert anything there. Or creating, you know, creating a life of purpose and of deep meaning. Yeah. And even that, even that too, when you think about your uses of technology, are you a producer or consumer? How many people are mindlessly scrolling or, hey, this is a tool I'm creating something I'm using as a tool to advertise, to promote my business, whatever the case may be. Like, that's a whole nother thing to think about. Like, what kind of usage on technology? Yes, overall, how much time are you spending on technology? But even with the time you're spending, what is it going towards? Are you learning more about yourself? Maybe there's a, you know, I don't know, a video, an educational video that you're watching on there, or are you just like mindlessly scrolling towards through reels? Now, okay, sure, laughter is important once in a while. But again, this is where having intention and using the devices and using technology to your advantage is important as opposed to it using you. Yeah, exactly. I mean, right now we've got 32% of kids that are reporting that they're feeling unimportant when their parents are constantly checking their phones. So you talk about like the deathbed, right? Like our kids remember, like, you know, these are the things like they remember their childhoods. And when we are at those last moments, it's like, we're not reflecting back on, you know, what meme we sent, even though that may have made someone's day once in a while. But at the end of the day, it's like what you said, it's like people have lost the ability to look others even in the eyes, like eye contact. The fact that there's a huge industry out there that create money for like coaching businesses on how to do eye gazing, literally coming back to eye, like face to face, eye to eye connection, people have lost that. There are industries that are now available to the corporate world that teach you eye gazing. Because we've lost our ability to look people in the eye. And honestly, like some of the greatest memories I have is my parents looking me in the eye. Yeah, we've lost- It's technic, you know, this is the technic we see, right? It's like the downward pull, it's downward pull of technology. So you're not looking up, looking out, looking at each other. Yeah. Well, we've lost the ability to be with ourselves, to be vulnerable. And so, if you can't do that with yourself because you're constantly distracted all the time, and you're from device to device, to distraction to distraction, then when you're with someone, talk about intimacy, like that's too vulnerable, I got to look away, I got to laugh, I got to crack a joke. Like I can't just be with a person, I can't see them, I can't look at them, I can't be seen, you know, in silence, in presence. Like, if you can't even be present with yourself, how are you going to be present with another? Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. And that's all the self-care stuff that we keep coming back to. It's like, you know, we're doing this as much for ourselves as we're doing it for our kids. And it's because looking at someone else in the eyes, looking at somebody else and listening to them, really listening to them when they're talking. I mean, that fills us up, like it really does. And so, when we cut that off and we put a barrier between ourselves and that connection, it's not the device that's doing that, it's we are doing that. We're using the device as a tool to disconnect. So, we're putting that in between us and the ability to connect. That's how deep the trauma lies. It's like, I'll grab that device without me even realizing that I'm going to use that to disconnect. Yeah. And just for those listening, I feel like it's important just to mention, like we've said from the start, this technology isn't going anywhere. The options, the attraction, it's going to become more and more potent. But ultimately, you're responsible. You alone are responsible for what you're doing on your phone. You're alone are responsible how often you're picking it up, when you're picking it up, how much of your attention of your creative life force, it's actually consuming. And you can't have this conversation without a conversation of self-responsibility as well. And in those moments where you've been drowning in your phone for such a long period of time, you know when you feel zapped. You know when there's that regret that kicks in that's like, what the hell have I been doing? But that has to be a motivating force. To shift behavior, to change behavior. And that's what it means to be responsible ultimately. Yeah. Responsibility is honestly one of my favorite words, because of what you've just described. And I think if you're spending your life chasing the degree, the money, the job, the house, car, possessions, the looks, big things about looks right now, and the family life, the marriage, all that stuff that you want to present to the world. It's a never ending, and it's a desperate attempt to forge some form of connection of something meaningful. But it's looking in all the wrong places for those answers, because the true meaning of connection is with ourselves. And it's within our natural state of creative potential, our natural habitats. I mean, there's nothing more artificial than literally going to a waterfall and having devices. Even when you look out and you see everyone with their devices filming the waterfall, it's somehow in you. You feel that's really bizarre. It's kind of strange that we're all on our phones. It's like, there's a waterfall, there's a mountain, there's a whale, whatever it is. It's like we genuinely, I think we create the harmony within ourselves and our relationship to what is natural. Again, natural being key word here, is because ultimately we want to better understand ourselves and the purpose in being in this world. And that takes responsibility. That's the greatest responsibility that we have. And that's what I think is what we've been talking about, is that we're not separate from anything. We're not separate from our devices. It's how do we use them? Do we use it to interfere with our experience of life? Or do we use it to enhance and amplify certain experiences in our lives? And only you know that. And only you can be honest about that. Because ultimately we are all on this wheel, this massive giant cog, I guess. And we continue to turn and operate however we think is effective and efficient. And that's what amplifies our experience. And so, yeah, I think all of that, we become an extension of a bigger picture. This is an interconnected web of life, online, offline, all of it. And so that's what I think is when we come back to what is real connection, does it nourish you? Does it nurture you? Does it provide you with real connection? And I think these are the best ways for people to explore their relationship with technology, which is what I'm all about. I'm just like, what's your relationship? And it's the same in coaching. If you can't be honest about your relationship with yourself and with what you use and with who you've got in your life, then, mate, I don't know that you're really capable of going the distance on that hero's journey. But these are the things you'll come across if you decide to go that path. If you decide to be that salmon and go upstream, you're going to have to face those uncomfortable questions. And discomfort is not a bad thing. We've been sort of deterred from discomfort. Discomfort means it doesn't feel right in the body, therefore you shouldn't do it. It's like, oh, mate, if you only knew what a great teacher discomfort is and you actually listen to that teacher, it's amazing what you'd learn. And because technology ultimately does make a lot of people uncomfortable, they don't want to talk about that part. It's like they don't want to talk about the shadow. They want to talk about all the things that make them feel good about technology. Great. There's a lot of that too. But don't avoid the experience of understanding the discomfort as well and noticing things more in your life when it comes to that. So, I think that's the greatest understanding. It's as if the masses were addicted to heroin. No one wants to speak about heroin. It feels so good. What's the last thing we want to break? Let's not bring that up. Beautiful sentiments to end on, Renate. So much value in this conversation. You're so amazing the way you're able to articulate your experience and your level of expertise here. It really is so valuable to all of us. And again, just to honor you, it was awesome spending those eight weeks together in Rise Above The Herd. You blew us away. Any expectations that we had, we were like, wow, Renate's really diving deep. She's engaging. And it was just awesome to witness and see you. Thanks, guys. And I really appreciate what you offer. And I've spoken about it to so many people and I will continue to because at the end of the day, I think I support people that are doing, and I mean this wholeheartedly, doing the work and are encouraging others to do the work. And I'll always be doing the work. That's the thing. It's like the humility in me, I like that. I like that I can always uncover more. And if it resonates, my God, I didn't miss a beat on a single lesson or a journal or there were people that were on the call and they're like, I'll get back to it. And I loved my commitment to the completion. I love my commitment to anything that I put my mind to. That's what I value about my individuality is that when I commit and I make a promise and I give you my attention, you get it wholeheartedly. And I think that is something that, yeah, I'm really proud of in myself, but I'm also proud that you guys created something that allowed me to notice those things more and more in my life. So, I take my hat off to both of you for what you're doing. And as I said, I'm a massive cheerleader of who you both are at your core and everything that you'll do from that core. Thank you. Lively app on all platforms, let them know. Yeah, you can download the Lively app, as you said, like on App Store and on Google Play. And it's 28 days, 28 ways to create healthy digital habits. It's all about creating a relationship with technology, balancing online and offline. And it's just really fun, engaging challenges that you can give yourself. I think that's what we all enjoy in life. It's like a bit of that fun challenge. It's got satire in it. It's got incredible content within that space. And ultimately, it's really up to you if you want to create a better relationship with technology and therefore yourself and how you participate in life. This is my offering. Amazing. And I mean, just congratulations in terms of having an idea and bringing it to fruition, bringing it to material reality and now having something that people can engage with. That's so huge. I can't imagine what it would have gone through to create and fine-tune and refine an app and all the ideas and all the planning that would have gone into that. And again, the currency of attention is what moves us forward. It's what brings creation forth. So yeah, congrats. And I'm a subscriber of Lively. I haven't gone too deep yet, but knowing the individual that's behind it, I highly encourage and recommend and can vouch for it. So once again, thank you, Renat. And everyone else, thank you for listening. Stay tuned for the wrap-up. Take care. Always love connecting with Renat, man. Yeah, I'm on the same page as you, man. She's one of my favorite people for a host of reasons. I love the conversation. I love who she is. I love what she stands for. I love that she's on the path of continuing to just want to grow and be the best person she can be. And those are the people I want to be around. That's the thing, bro, because you and I know in the past, we've had people who I guess have higher profile names actually come and wants to do the course. However, I felt like the commitment just wasn't there, so to speak. It didn't really go through the work or the modules or engage appropriately. But for Renat, for her to come on, she was deep within the content. She was deep within the story and the journeys of the other students. And really, it just was a powerful process, bro. And it really is rewarding for me to know also just the broad range of impact that Rise Above The Herd can have. Yeah, I agree, man. And I said it to her after the fact, like it's so affirming too. And I'm just like the respect I have for her and to get that feedback. And it's like, I'm proud of what we created. I'm proud of what we're bringing to the world. And it's amazing to see people's lives continue to transform. So great conversation obviously on technology, on the role of technology and how it's not going away. And yet, how can we have the consciousness around it where we don't have to be slaves to our technology and where we can use it to support things that we want to do in our lives? Yeah. I mean, every single step of the way, it comes back to us. The world is going to do what the world does. Civilization is going to advance. Technology is going to evolve in the way that evolves. And the constant factor is what are we doing? What's the state of our own psychology? How are we adapting to the environment? Because the environment is always changing. And we have that choice. And in that choice lies freedom. It lies morality. And this is why we have the conversations we have. This is why we do the work that we do. So we can remain competent and conscious to navigate this world and navigate reality appropriately. Yeah. And I think, again, the importance of just remaining humble to the fact that you don't have it all figured out, that I don't have it figured out, that Joel doesn't have it all figured out. We know everything. And that life is just a process. It is an experiment that we continue. And we do our best to continue to grow, to evolve, to be better men, to be better women, to be better husbands, to be better fathers, friends, et cetera. Yeah. And to have the self-acceptance to know that there's going to be times where you're going to slip. You're going to fall. You're going to be in lulls. You're going to be on the low end of waves. You're going to be distracted. You're going to be full of self-sabotaging behaviors. But with awareness and with consciousness, that's okay too. And we can move out of those states with ease. Anyway, guys, thank you so much again for listening to our episodes. And just a reminder, Rise Above The Herd, round eight. The doors are now open, spots are filling up, and you can sign up using the link in our show notes or by heading to riseabovetheherd.co. This is going to be a powerful process. The next round launches January 8th. You're down to do this work, down to change your life, down to make 2024, the year where you say yes to transformation, real. And we'd love to see you inside.