Erin Esser Embracing Uncertainty & the Dance of Life

[Speaker 3] (0:00 - 1:55) Oliver, who just graduated from Rights Above the Herd round eight, has left us some amazing commentary and he says, In a world that's filled with misinformation and misconceptions of what it means to be a human, in a time and day when everything seems to be up for debate, Joel and Yerasmo stand out as powerful embodiments of how you can live an authentic life deeply anchored in your own core values and purpose in life. These two truth seekers have not only put together profound curriculum for personal growth, they also hold a very unique capacity for facing anything that comes up with kindness and love. Through their clear perspectives, Joel and Yerasmo have mirrored back to me my shadow and light, which has developed in me the strength I need to pursue my individual path, the tools and capability to rise above conditioning, and the self-esteem to be free and to take actions towards a life less ordinary. Oliver, thank you so much for those incredibly profound words, man. It was awesome seeing you grow and evolve and rise in that container. We deeply appreciate the trust and I'm glad you got the value on the other side. Today, guys, we have Erin Esser joining us. We have a beautiful conversation here, free-flowing on a number of topics of what it means to be human and how to dance with or wrestle with life, as you'll hear during this conversation. I really hope you enjoy it. As at this point, there's one week left to join the next round of Rise Above The Herd, round nine, in my opinion. This is the most holistic self-development program out there and available. It's so, so broad-reaching, yet so inspiring for those who are genuinely wanting a shift and want to experience something new, something greater, something different. Limited spots left, one week left to join riseabovetheherd.co or the link is in the show notes. We sincerely hope you enjoy this episode. [Speaker 1] (1:56 - 2:03) You are now listening to the Year for the Truth podcast, hosted by Joel Graffiti and Yerasimos. [Speaker 3] (2:06 - 2:49) Erin Esser is a midlife transitions coach whose mission is to equip and empower women in their 40s to 60s to not only navigate this time with ease, but to realize that midlife is an initiation that invites us onto a journey of self-discovery, renewal and empowerment, ultimately leading us to live a more meaningful and purposeful life. Erin is an astrologer, a human design reader, a Reiki master and intuitive and uses these gifts and skills to empower people to discover and live their authentic blueprint. She currently lives in South Carolina with her three teens, 11 chickens, three cats and dog, but is exploring moving in 2024. Erin, welcome to Year for the Truth. [Speaker 1] (2:50 - 2:54) Thank you so much, Joel and Yerasimos. It's so great to be here with you guys. [Speaker 3] (2:54 - 3:03) No, it's great having you here. Awesome to have you here. It's like I was reading Yerasimos' bio, but I just switched to a female one of you. 11 chickens. [Speaker 1] (3:05 - 3:11) Right, right. That's right. I remember the last time we talked, I remember Yerasimos saying that you guys, you guys have chickens there too. [Speaker 3] (3:11 - 3:17) Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely 11. Yeah, 11 chickens, human design reader, empowering women in their 40s or 60s. Yeah, exactly. [Speaker 1] (3:22 - 3:29) It's kind of eerie, the similarities with Joel and like with the cross and everything, and now with the chickens, Yerasimos, it's wild. I love it. [Speaker 2] (3:29 - 3:45) We had such a great conversation on your platform too. And even when we had that, I think Joel and I were just like, oh yeah, down the road, we definitely want to have you on and have a conversation and get into your story and see where it goes. And we had a little chat beforehand too, which was nice. [Speaker 3] (3:46 - 4:01) Anyways. Yeah. On that note, we definitely want to start off getting into your personal hero's journey and just really exploring some of the really pivotal and major rites of passage that determined your path and some of the wisdom that you've learned along the way. [Speaker 1] (4:03 - 4:12) Awesome. Yeah. So I guess, sorry, what was my rite of passage, basically? Yeah. [Speaker 3] (4:12 - 4:17) A little summary of your personal hero's journey. Yeah. What were the major catalyzing ones? [Speaker 1] (4:19 - 9:47) Yeah. So I guess I knew, when I was a kid, I always knew something, and I think we all can probably relate to this. It's like, I knew there was something different about me, but I thought maybe everybody felt that too, but nobody really wanted to talk about it. I was always a little bit different in my beliefs around spirituality, religion, just life as a whole. But I would get pushed back from my family and just people around me. So I would say my major, gosh, there's a couple of them. When I was in my 20s, I was living in Seattle, Washington, and it was 2002, actually. And I had gotten this, I was wanting the truth, right? So I got the book, The Four Agreements, and the Celestine Prophecy. And I remember telling a really good friend about it because I was into these books. They were so good. And she had been in seminary though at the time. And so she had asked me if they were of Christian authors. And I was like, I don't know. So I just read the back of the author thing for her. And she's like, oh, they're not Christian. It's just, they're not speaking the truth. They're not of God. I'm going to send you some stuff that is. And at that time, I honestly, I did not trust, I wanted this journey, but I did not trust myself to know what I really wanted or at least what I believed. And so I was very open and very vulnerable to external beliefs. So that allowed me to go into really deep into Christianity, like really deep. And as a 6'2", I couldn't just level the surface. I had to really get in. And one of the churches we were at was a very, very political base, very intense. I was on staff there. We would go to revivals. It's crazy. That's a whole other podcast. But yeah, it was wild. And, but left there, just different situations, questions that I had. I was, it was a lot of spiritual manipulation, I guess, that I started to kind of question my own beliefs. But I left there and again, still wanting the truth. So, you know, stepping into a whole other religious container, which was Orthodox Judaism. And I worked with a rabbi actually in Jerusalem for probably a couple of years and spent time in Denver, Colorado and in Houston, Texas with some Orthodox families. And we were going to go through the whole conversion process until I realized in 2015, which is a major that I was like, again, I'm skipping a lot of things. I'm just kind of going over like this whole journey from like 2009 to 2015 of like, I remember sitting at my, we were living in Charlotte, North Carolina at the time. And I remember sitting at my kitchen table and I'm like, okay. It was another question I'd asked myself previous to this was like, I just want the truth, like no matter where it takes me. And I was reading this quote by, I think it was a Buddha or something. And it was the raft, you know, where if you, an inappropriate use of the raft, right? Like, so if you use a raft to go across a river, perfect, leave it at the shore. I'm paraphrasing. But if you pick up that raft, thinking that you have to carry it with you, it's going to be a burden on your journey. And in that moment, I was like, oh my gosh, this raft that I've been carrying is like religion or some sort of structure that I thought I needed, you know, which whatever Christianity, Judaism, whatever it was. And then I literally, I remember in that moment, I was like, I can lay this down. And I did. And I went back to 2002, 13 years prior. And I read, I went and got the books, Celestine Prophecy and The Four Agreements again. And I read them again with new eyes, right? And a whole new foundation. But I would say that's really what kickstarted my journey into myself. Because in that time, then I was like, I do, like I started to trust myself more, right, in this whole process of like what I believed, what I didn't believe. But I had to go through a lot of stuff and a lot of outside and external, you know, BS, so to speak, belief system BS. To come to that point where I was able to trust myself enough to say, all right, I'm going to put this down and I'm going to come back and what do I believe and what feels right and true to me. And I realized, you know, reflection of Judaism, what I loved about that is the ritual. I love the intention. You know, every Friday, the woman is like sets the candles and like, that's like, it's like so sacred. I loved that part of it. So, I was able to take that, I was like, I can take that in my whole, every day in my life. It doesn't have to be a, you know, structured type of thing, dogmatic type of thing. So, basically, that led me into you know, where I'm at today, you know, nine years later. And yeah, been through, I was married at the time, divorce, that was another big catalyst. So, yeah, it's just, it's been a journey ever since. [Speaker 3] (9:47 - 10:06) Yeah. It's interesting, like, I feel like I was kind of called in 2015 as well. I experienced my first kind of major shift and major questioning. It definitely happened around that time. I don't know if there's anything astrologically going on then or whatnot, but it's definitely curious. So, was the divorce post 2015? [Speaker 1] (10:07 - 10:08) Yeah, it was 2017. [Speaker 3] (10:09 - 10:09) Gotcha. [Speaker 1] (10:11 - 10:16) You know, what happened though, is I started doing shadow work. I started doing inner child work around that time. [Speaker 3] (10:16 - 10:16) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (10:16 - 10:48) And I started getting more connected, even, you know, some somatic, some energy healing, some work like, you know, where I was able to tune in more with my body. And I just, it was, we were going to make some big decisions, sort of purchasing a home, things like that. And I just, it was like one of the first times in my body that I was like, this does not feel good. Like, I can't, I can't do this. And learning how to express myself from that place of trusting that and being able to speak that was a whole new experience for me. [Speaker 3] (10:48 - 10:50) Yeah. And how old were you at that time? [Speaker 1] (10:51 - 10:56) Oh, gosh, I was, well, I'm 40, 48 now. So, I was 30, 38, 39. [Speaker 3] (10:58 - 11:15) Yeah. That's incredible. I think that's incredible to like have that trust and make those decisions at that time. Because like I said, that time period where most people will kind of like lay it down, they feel they're too entrenched and they feel, you know, they just need to go with whatever they've built around them at that point in time. And they think it's too late, you know. [Speaker 2] (11:15 - 11:22) And kind of accept the seeds that were planted earlier on and just go, okay, this is my life. Yeah. And we see it often. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (11:22 - 12:20) Absolutely. It's like, well, and I've even asked myself that question several times. I'm like, well, maybe this is just my lot in life and I have to catch myself. I'm like, what are you doing? You know, like, no, it's not, you know. So, but I think it's just one of those, yeah, it's, you know, one of the things I realized recently too, you know, I'm approaching even my Chiron return here in the next couple, next year and a half. And it's in Aries and it's like North Nose right now in Aries and stuff too, or, you know, with Chiron and in Aries. And it's just the mental like games that our mind really plays with us and how like realizing how vulnerable, like if I would have realized 10, 20 years ago, truly how vulnerable like our mind is and really how we have to take every thought captive and just be so on, like be so aware, right? Like, yeah, it would be interesting to see, you know, what would have happened, but yeah, it's really wild. [Speaker 2] (12:21 - 13:55) Well, yeah. And this is, this is where I appreciate like the importance of somatic work and nervous system work and human design is that obviously the mind is important. Obviously we need to be able to think critically. We need to analyze things and we need to have discernment, but we know that like the mind can be distorted, you know, via conditioning. And that conditioning causes us to think and behave in ways that aren't ideal for us. And so like, how can we drop into the body, you know, and we have all these, not all these, but many spiritual teachings and principles that wants you to discount the body and ignore the body and that you're not your body. Like, okay, I get it on one side of the coin. Okay. Our soul, our spirit is eternal, but like to, to harp on this idea that like this, this body is like, eh, it's a throwaway. You have it, you know, whatever. It's not, it's not, it's not a big deal. It's like, it's such disrespect to life in this incarnation on this planet that we experience this world through a body. We have this nervous system that impacts so much. And I just think it's, it's, it's so important work and you can't have authentic shadow work without integrating the body, you know, like, cause the wisdom that we have, that's like that our body knows, you know, it's like, and we, we ignore the signals over and over and over again because we're all these rationalizations that happen within the mind. Absolutely. So you're, you're right. We have to have such an attuned awareness of what's going on mentally, what's going on semantically. And this is part, this is the great work as many people say, you know, as we, that we do throughout our lives. [Speaker 1] (13:55 - 14:48) It is the great work that is for sure. Well, it's interesting you mentioned that too, because just now I'm realizing these last few days I live in the South, you know, United States and oh gosh, the pollen right now, it is crazy. And I was never, I never had any issues. I've been down here for nine years and in the South and I've never had any issues with pollen, never had issues with allergies at all until last spring. Well, the August before that was when my dad passed and there was so much going on. Right. And so like, I'm sitting here this morning thinking about this and I'm like, uh, there's gotta be some, some connection here. Right. So, but it's like being curious about those things, you know, and, and rather than discounting them or just thinking it's just, oh, it's just allergies. No big deal. It's like, yeah, but what is my body really like needing right now? What is it trying to tell me, you know, and communicate to me? [Speaker 2] (14:49 - 15:31) Without a doubt. And I don't know if you've gotten into Germany medicine at all on any of the we've done on that. Like, you know, it makes sense to me when, or we go through something emotional, traumatic, you know, during a time that, you know, maybe pollen is present, like our body picks that up during that time and it becomes a track. And so, you know, it's interesting to think about that, um, from that standpoint with regarding allergies, cause it's so easy to be like, oh, it's just a physical thing that's impacting me, you know, as opposed to, no, there's something deeper. We are consciousness, you know, we're always perceiving things in our environment. Um, and if we're dealing with something impactful, uh, as a death or something else, you know, that's acutely stressful, you know, there's many factors that need to be considered. [Speaker 1] (15:32 - 15:33) Absolutely. A hundred percent. [Speaker 2] (15:34 - 15:34) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (15:36 - 16:31) Yeah. I think it's, it's so alluring, you know, cause it really supports the notion that it's okay to, to escape and to, and to be an escapist, you know, these ideologies that inform us, you know, that we can drop the body, drop the mind, et cetera. Like this is the perfect gateway to, to avoid self-responsibility ultimately. But really the truth is like where, where, where there's more pain, where, where it feels like, you know, it's difficult to be in the body where it's like, it's difficult to be with ourselves. That's where the real work is. That's more than ever where we're being called to drop in, to attune, to build a relationship, you know, to what's really present and what's really with us. And I mean, even like the whole new age idea, you know, like drop the past, drop the future. Oh, perfect. You know, that's perfect for the person who's like, just lived 30, 40 years of, you know, destruction and hedonism and white lies and all the rest of it. And they come into an ideology that tells them, oh, don't worry about it. Just, you know, wash your hands of all of it. Like now freeing that feels. [Speaker 1] (16:32 - 16:32) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (16:33 - 16:35) No, no wonder there's a, there's a bliss phase involved. [Speaker 1] (16:36 - 17:38) Oh, absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's pretty wild. And I mean, it just takes, and I feel like too, like this time, you know, that we're in, it takes so much disarmament, you know, there's so many things out there that are being, oh man, you know, it's easy to get confused in the mind. And it's always, you know, at least for myself, you know, I'm just trying to like go back, like even this morning, you know, it's, it's been an interesting last few days. And then today, you know, with my dad's birthday and whatnot, you know, and just sitting out, I was like, all right, what do I need? And so my body just led outside, you know, I just go outside, sit down, you know, and listen to my rooster crowing and put my feet on the ground. And just, I just cried for a while, you know, it was just like, okay, just allowing whatever my body's needing to do to do and, you know, and not trying to have to make sense of it. It's just a release, just is, you know, so. [Speaker 3] (17:39 - 18:07) And like part of the work of being an individual is recognizing that you operate on your own individual timing as well, you know, like we live in this culture that's constantly propagating this idea that there's like certain ways to success, there's certain ways to healing, there's set things in place. But, you know, each day is different based on what your individual psyche or individual body is presenting to you. Like you have to be the one that is constantly listening, become your own shaman, make the decisions based upon what's there, you know, it's like you can't pump it till it hurts. [Speaker 2] (18:08 - 18:21) Well, even like just having the presence to know, let's say an individual has like a really strict morning routine and it's like their mind's like, no, you have to do your morning routine when like on some level you're like, I just want to go outside and sit on my front porch and weep. [Speaker 3] (18:21 - 18:25) And that's probably the ultimate medicine required for you in that moment. [Speaker 1] (18:25 - 19:57) Absolutely. And I, and like smiling because it's just so telling because, you know, we're talking about the mind, right? The mind wants certainty so bad. It wants structure. It wants to know what's going on, you know, especially I have a completely undefined mind layer, you know, Ajna, like nothing at all. So it's like, okay, nothing, no activations, no gate. So it's like, you know, so my whole life, like that's why I was in, I believe anyway, that's religious, you know, I was like, I wanted to know what was going on to be certain, you know, cause it made me feel safe. And, and it's, it's just like, I think that's why too, like nobody really knows, like nobody knows business, how to do what's the right way of business, right? Like what's the right way of healing? What's the right way of relationships, anything, right? Anything, but we want that structure because it makes us feel safe, you know, of like, oh, well, if I work with this coach or do this or this or this or this, they'll tell me what I need to do. So then I can just go, oh, okay. But that's not where our truth is, right? Our truth lies within the uncertainty of we got to figure this out. And I mean, we got to walk this journey and that is scary at times I still get, you know, there's times literally, I'm just being vulnerable here. Like, it's like, what do I really want this? Do I really want to be, you know what I mean? And it's just like, that's normal. Like, like, can we just be real and be like, Hey, you know, like, like some days I wake up and I'm like, I don't want to be on social media. I don't want to do anything. And I know my business coach is this, that, but I'm like, ah, I'm not that smart. You know what I mean? [Speaker 2] (19:58 - 21:00) I mean, again, it's like duality within this reality of like there's certainty and uncertainty and how well do you dance between the two and honor the two? I mean, there's times where I'm like, okay, I feel pretty certain, but this is where human design helped me as well. Because with the mind, an undefined mind, it's like the conditioning element of it is like pretending to be certain. And most people, the majority have an undefined mind. And so you look around you on social media and our relationships, and it's just this, no, I'm right. No, this is it. This is the truth. I'm like, I used to be that way. And I still have moments of it, but I've really tried my best to learn like, okay, I may feel certain about something based on my level of research or study, but can I create enough space in me to be like, and like, I don't, I don't, I don't really know. I could be wrong. And what does that do in an interpersonal dynamic, in a communication with another person? It's so different than just like speaking at people. I have the answers. I'm right. I'm certain. Like, all right, cool. Go enjoy your certainty. [Speaker 1] (21:02 - 21:11) I used to do that all the time. You know, that's the funny thing. I knew the right way, the right, you know, all that stuff. And, and now like my, one of my favorite phrases is, I don't know. [Speaker 2] (21:12 - 21:20) Can a person be comfortable with saying that that is such like important work, like. Especially with clients too, right? [Speaker 1] (21:21 - 22:32) You know, because like, right. Like, you know, guys have clients and like, I've, you know, it's like when a client comes to you and they want that, you know, it's like, I don't know. And with my kids, actually, I started doing this, I don't know, probably about five years ago with my, with my kids and my son, especially because he would always be like, Hey mom, like, what do you think about this? Or what should I do here? And I would turn it back around and like, I don't know. Like, what do you want to do? What do you feel like? You know what I mean? And working that through him so he could learn to trust his own, like, you know, inner promptings and, and inner, you know, voice, you know, within himself. It's like, I don't want to tell you what to do. That doesn't equip you to be a, you know, like an actual like human being that's going to navigate this world, like in a healthy and, you know, just the best way that you can and feel confident and competent. So, but that like threw him for a loop though, when he was like 13, he was like, I don't know. Just tell me. I'm like, no, I know, you know what it is. So let's just work through this. Right. And then he'd start to realize that. So I feel like that's the greatest gift we can give to people is, you know, is trusting that we all have that within us. It's just that we've been so conditioned that we have to trust external authority when it's like, well, what if we didn't, you know? [Speaker 3] (22:33 - 23:00) Yeah. We're constantly looking for someone who knows better in every, situation, you know? And I think that just robs us of so much personal development and self-esteem and really claiming the reins and being the captain of our own soul and of our own ship, which ultimately we're all being called kids to do. You know, my life is a constant wave of uncertainty. I think we both share the life theme of uncertainty in human design. They're just flipped. I think I've got the conscious 14, unconscious eight and yours is the other way around. [Speaker 1] (23:00 - 23:02) Yeah. You're November and I'm May. [Speaker 3] (23:02 - 23:33) Yeah. Scorpio-Taurus axis. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And like, this doesn't stop. It doesn't end. Doesn't matter how far you progress down the road, how much you think you've evolved and grown, like that uncertainty, it's always going to come, you know, and teach you again to like, dig deeper, you know, to trust more, to like, figure it out, to lean on your own resolve, your own discernment, to like, navigate. And it's like, it doesn't go, you know, it's like a constant, it's constantly present. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (23:33 - 24:21) Well, it's funny, you know, we're going to be probably moving this year and, you know, I bought this house not even three years ago. I have Uranus like on the, between my third and fourth house as well too, like in astrology. And so I've always moved around a lot and, and I love that adventure and that kind of spontaneity in a way too. But like even my daughter, she's 19 and she's just like, mom, but like, sometimes you just got to find something and just stick with it, you know, cause like she gets like stressed out sometimes, you know, with that. And, and it reminds me that my parents would say the same thing to me too. I don't know if that was your experience, Joel, but like, it's like, just find something and just stick with it. Cause it would like make them nervous, you know? And I'm like, I don't know, but everything always works out. It always does. So, and that's what I just have to keep reminding myself, you know? [Speaker 3] (24:22 - 25:05) And I think that's been a constant truth. And that's kind of been like the major lesson is that when you're on this path, when you're truly moving in authenticity, like you're always supported, like you're always looked after no matter how much that survival instinct kicks in, that fear, that scarcity, you know, that death, that death ride where it's like, you know, I literally, my survival is being threatened. If I throw away everything now, if I make a different choice, if I make a different decision, like every single time, over and over again, somehow, some way, even in like the last minute scenario, things find a way of working out and panning out. And it's like, there is just this grace and this serendipity that exists in the human experience. You know, it's always, it's constant. [Speaker 2] (25:06 - 26:00) Yeah. Well, I think it also perception has so much to do with it because, you know, someone would hear that and go like, what are you talking about? It doesn't always work out, you know? But it's like, if you do face challenges, what kind of person faces those challenges in a certain way, you know? Whereas they can adopt like, okay, like things ultimately end up working out because you're taking a challenge, you're taking something that, that isn't, that doesn't go super well. And you're not just falling into the victim mindset. Now you can have moments of it, of course, but like, what do you then do with it? And I think when you come from a more empowered standpoint, things do work out, you know, especially if you're like truly listening to something within you, that's like, I have to make this choice. Like, I have to like, you know, after time, of course, like I have to leave this relationship. I have to leave this job. I have to move, you know, when you make that decision. It's like that quote, remember that quote that we always read? I just pulled it up. I just pulled it up. Oh, wow. The Goethe, right? The Goethe quote? I think it's a Goethe quote. Yeah. Like Providence. [Speaker 3] (26:00 - 26:28) The moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events, issues from the decision, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do or dream, you can do. Begin it. Boldness has a genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now. You know, it's like God, Providence, Source, it has to see you working. It has to find you committing. It has to find you making a decision. [Speaker 1] (26:29 - 26:40) Oh, that made me like, I got emotional, like you reading that. I was just like, that was good. It was so good. It's where I find myself right now too. So thank you for both of you thinking about that at the same time. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (26:40 - 27:52) And I think like when we think on our lives, these rites of passage and things that came from them, like that's what happened. We left something that deep down did not feel right. We honored our authority perhaps, you know, for those that are in human design. That's how it was for me. All my major life decisions, without even knowing human design, you know, especially in the past, I was following my design. You know, I got a hit, but I didn't jump on it right away. I waited on it and it just felt like the next step to take in my life. And in a lot of ways, it was a very uncertain path, leaving a job, leaving a path that was laid before me, you know, saying no to what my parents, you know, probably thought they wanted for me. You know, they come from a different world. You're like, listen, I have an amazing parents. I'm grateful. But if I listened to them on what I should do with my life, I wouldn't be who I am. And I is the individuation from the projections of our parents on how they think we should live and move about in the world. You have to be willing to disappoint your parents in order to have the life and create the life that I think ultimately is going to provide more fulfillment, satisfaction, et cetera. [Speaker 1] (27:54 - 28:00) You know, and I'm going to add something to that because I love that. And I'm also going through the time where I have to be willing to disappoint my children too. [Speaker 2] (28:00 - 28:00) Mm hmm. [Speaker 1] (28:01 - 28:30) And that's a big one because that's like that has gotten me for so many years of like, you know, a lot of just like, oh, OK, well, I don't want to, you know, but it's like, well, no, like it just is. It's like it is, you know, it is what it is. And, you know, I think back on when I left my marriage and, you know, we were we had earnest money put down on a home. It was a home. It was like, you know, your American whatever dream, right? Whatever the dream. [Speaker 2] (28:31 - 28:33) The white picket fence, but maybe not the white picket fence. [Speaker 1] (28:34 - 30:26) But I get it. Exactly. Exactly. And and I just I could not. This is what I was referring to earlier. Like there was like I literally felt sick to my stomach when I knew that I had to sign these extra papers and whatnot. And my ex-husband at the time was like, hey, don't forget he was going to work. Don't forget to whatever, you know, to do that today. And I remember being in the laundry room and I was just like, oh, my gosh. I can't do this like I knew I just couldn't do it. I couldn't. And get the crazy thing is it's kind of like the quote, right, that you just read. I knew that I couldn't do it. And so I had I knew I had to talk to my ex at the time. And I mean, we had money down like, you know, I was just like it would have been easier at the time. It would have been so much easier just to go with the flow and just do it right. Everything was aligned, you know, to do that. And to go against that was that was really hard. And anyway, I had to express to him, you know, my reservations in this. And he, you know, he understood. I mean, he knew, you know, it's but here was the crazy thing. His work, like, basically, it was like God like worked this out where we were able to get pretty much all of our earnest money back because something with his work changed as far as his location. He was going to be transferring. He could transfer so he couldn't move to where we were going to move to. So anyways, so it all like by honoring that right and trusting that like we were not in a big like financial like, you know, whatever. And even if we would have been, it would have been worth it because I could not imagine he wasn't a bad guy. Just we weren't aligned like I was growing. He wasn't. It was just one of those things of, you know, we spent many years together and, you know, we're still friends and whatnot, but my life would not be where it's at now, you know, and I'm so grateful that I listened and took that harder road at the time because it would have been a lot harder now if I wouldn't have listened then and made that hard then. [Speaker 2] (30:26 - 30:33) Yeah. The quote unquote easy road is harder down the road. That's right. It's not really the easy road at all. [Speaker 1] (30:33 - 30:40) It's not, not at all. Like in the moment, it might feel like that, but it's really not because we're denying ourselves ultimately, right? I mean, we're denying. [Speaker 3] (30:43 - 30:45) Yeah, you're denying what's most sacred. [Speaker 1] (30:46 - 30:47) Yes, absolutely. [Speaker 3] (30:47 - 31:27) And like if there's anything in life that you're here to do is to honor thyself, it's to really develop such deep attunement and connection with that inner voice, which is the truth of like who you are and the gifts that you're here to give and what's here to unfold for you. And but so many just live and die having drowned that out, and having continued to make decisions against what's the truth for them and in favor of the crowd and refusing to rattle the cage and remaining within the status quo. And to me, that's a death because stagnancy is death. There's no growth there. There's no energy moving. And it's not easy. It's never easy, but it's always worth it. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (31:27 - 31:34) Always worth it. Absolutely. And it might not be in the moment, but down the road, you look back and go, oh, my gosh, I'm so grateful I trusted myself in this, you know? [Speaker 2] (31:35 - 31:53) Yeah. And, you know, for some people, too, it's like their path is their path. And so maybe the easy road is the easy road for as long as it was. And then the lesson needs to be learned. And just it's like a much bigger, probably a lesson filled with more suffering that maybe it could have been. But, you know, it is what it is in that regard. So, I mean, Absolutely. [Speaker 1] (31:54 - 32:03) Well, I mean, if I would have listened ultimately for myself, even if I would have listened, I wouldn't have even gotten married. But I didn't listen. Yeah. I knew, but I didn't listen. [Speaker 2] (32:03 - 32:24) Right before you talk, I was going to say, I think about all those stories and even people I knew that go, I was walking down the aisle being like, what am I doing? I don't want to do this. But then people go with it. You know, they go with the flow and they do their thing and they continue down the process. They have kids and, you know, and but that's part of the life journey, you know what I mean? But it's interesting to think about that. Like, how often do we get those whispers? [Speaker 3] (32:25 - 32:33) Yeah. And you can't kill that whisper. You can't kill that thought. Like, you can't make it disappear. Right. It's going to keep coming back and knocking on the door. [Speaker 1] (32:33 - 33:29) It will keep coming back, you know, and absolutely, you know, and that's one of the things that too, like even, you know, in your asthma too, you know, like the midlife, like with men or whatever, right in their 40s. And like, there's five, literally five astrological transits that like, walk us through this whole time. And it's like, we start getting this inkling, like around our late 30s. I mean, it's like, you know, it's like our Pluto Square. It's like, something's got, we have to take a look at something, you know, within our life, and it will come up, you know, and I always tell people, like, the more aligned we are, that Uranus opposition, when we get there, that's one of them won't feel as crisis-y, right? Like, it'll only feel so much of a crisis, the more unaligned we are, right, to our authentic path or to our own, you know, like our own journey. And, you know, but we're always given these clues. We're always given, you know, information, you know. [Speaker 3] (33:29 - 33:33) What is the midlife crisis to you? Like, what is that? [Speaker 1] (33:33 - 33:59) To me, I think it's a rebirth. It's a reawakening. You know, I don't really feel like adulthood really happens. I don't think it happens at Saturn Return. I think that that's an inkling, but it's, you know, and I'm not the only one, you know, that his name is like, like, escaping me right now, but I'd know him, but I can't remember his name now, but Waldorf, my son even went to a Waldorf. [Speaker 3] (34:00 - 34:01) Thank you. [Speaker 1] (34:01 - 34:48) Yeah, even his own, you know, cosmology and stuff, too. It's right around 40. And I believe that, especially even looking through the astrological transits, you know, because it's right around the mid-30s that we start to get ushered in. I believe it's an initiation into our truest path, where we've spent, you know, like the first three, three and a half, almost four decades of our lives doing what we think we need to do, or, you know, what we should do. All the shoulds get replaced with what do I want? What is my actual, like, what am I destined to experience in this life? And we all have that. It just depends on how cluttered our life can be, I guess, or how numbing, you know, our life is. But that's what I feel it is. [Speaker 2] (34:49 - 34:50) Got you. [Speaker 1] (34:50 - 34:51) Yeah. How about you guys? [Speaker 2] (34:53 - 35:47) What do I think the midlife crisis is? I mean, I don't know. I don't know what one considers midlife, you know, in terms of the timing. But I would say a crisis is that, yeah, you're not listening to the inner call for decades, but you can't push it down. It's there, you know, like, there's that knock on the door of your consciousness of like, you're, you know, you're not living the life that you want to be living. And, you know, then kind of the proverbial shit hits the fan on some level, and you have to make a decision, whatever that is, whether it's to go on this growth path within the life you have or blow it up and change it, you know, like there's, it depends on the person. But I think ignoring deeper elements of yourself and who you are, just keep coming to the surface and you have to face them. That's what I would think. I don't know. Joel, what are your thoughts? Oh, well, you asked me. [Speaker 3] (35:49 - 36:44) I don't know. It's interesting. Like I'm 33 now, you know, for me, I definitely don't feel like what I'm quite adulthood started until like 29, 30, you know, but maybe by the time that comes around, it's like, it's asking to really like ground in that adulthood, you know, but I think my journey of really becoming an adult only just started the last like, you know, three odd years, so to speak. Like before that, very, very wishy-washy. And again, it speaks to my 6'2 nature, you know, very much in the trial and error phase, very much so figuring things out, very much so still influenced by authority and by the crowd and by the status quo, wanting to fit in, wanting to be disliked, etc. So yeah, I'm not sure, maybe by then it's like deeper grounding and a deeper initiation of power into like, OK, now you have full control, you know, like, what do you want to do with this? Where do you want to go? What decisions are you going to make? But I can't speak from experience for another few odd years, unfortunately. [Speaker 2] (36:45 - 39:05) My life relates a little bit to what you said around 40. Not that I wasn't living authentically beforehand, but like I got married at 39, you know, I met Joel at 41, you know, and we created what we created, which was kind of very often amalgamation of a lot of the things that I had been into and wanting to do, put together through this platform that we have and what we provide. You know, I had an interesting little, I guess you would call it a full circle, maybe not a full circle moment, but had a moment on Monday, yesterday, I drove my wife to the airport because she left Jersey to head back to LA. And on my way back, I was kind of just in thought and I missed the turn to get on the Garden State Parkway. And so my GPS took me to go through like 287, Route 287. And I came around. And when I was on the highway, I was, I passed right in front of my first job post-college, the hotel, because I went to school for hotel restaurant management. I grew up in the restaurant business and my initial path, I thought I was going to be this big hotelier, you know, and like go down that path. And in 2000, I started there in 2002 until 2004. So I was 22 and I worked until 24. And I stopped, I stopped by and I walked in to see the place. You know, I hadn't been there in a decade, you know, a couple, I don't know, maybe 10 years, 15 years, 20. I don't even know when the last time I was there. And it was such a trip to think about who I was then. Yes, of course, the essence is there, you as a human being, but, you know, I had yet to really go on, on this, this journey, this more alternative journey, you know, like 2004, like when I left that job, I just, I had that hit again. I was like, this isn't for me. It was a great experience. I was young. I had to manage like 30 people. All of them were older than me. I learned a lot of lessons there and how to navigate people, but I just had to sit, this isn't my path. And so like, that's when I, like the Olympics were in Greece at that point in 2004. And like six months before I was like, I'm leaving, I'm done. And I'm going to pack a suitcase full of books and I'm going to Greece and I'm going to do nothing but read and figure out what's next. You know, so like, as I was there, I wasn't there very long yesterday, but just sitting around and thinking and feeling into like, you know, what was my state of mind? Like what was going on in my life? And I don't know, it was a trip. It was kind of a little definitely a trip. They had done some remodeling too, so it looked different. It's like, man, anyways. [Speaker 1] (39:05 - 39:47) It's funny you're saying that because I was just in, my daughter and I took a trip to Seattle a few weeks ago and I lived in Seattle, Washington from 2000 to almost 2006. And before my daughter was born, well, my daughter was born out there, but it was like towards like the last year. And it was so surreal walking through West Seattle where we lived majority of the time when we were there. And I was pointing things out to her, you know, because I had a business out there and I had, you know, different things. And I'm like, I told her, I was like, it's so wild walking with you here at 19 years old when like pointing all these things out to you when you weren't even here. Like it's such a, it's such a trip. I mean, it's a mindfuck. [Speaker 3] (39:47 - 40:04) It's a mindfuck for sure. You know, at times. Yeah, it reminds me of that quote, you know, like no man steps in the same river twice, but it's not the same river and he's not the same man. It's like, it's a totally different psyche that's present in that location, you know, and observing it through completely different new experiences that have been had. [Speaker 2] (40:04 - 40:43) And this is why you brought up earlier, why reading the same book at different points in your life is really interesting too. You know, I've done it on a few occasions, but the one book that I mentioned before, I've read the alchemist four times at four different points in my life and my journey. And it was like, it landed and it hit me in a different way. You know, it's a sweet, simple story, you know, really about like honoring yourself and paying attention to the signs and, you know, following, going after your dreams. But like, how does that land, you know, when you're 20, 21 years old or 28, 30, you know, it's a really cool experience. So that quote you said y'all really lands for me. [Speaker 1] (40:44 - 41:26) Oh, it's, I love that quote. Yeah. And just, you know, even when we went out to Seattle too, like I booked a ticket because I kept having dreams. Seattle was in my dreams like several times and they were so real. And I'm like, I, my subconscious is trying to communicate something to me. Like I need to go there for something. I didn't know why I was there. People are like, why are you going to Seattle? I'm like, I don't know. Like I just had dreams. Like, and I just booked a ticket, like after my last dream, that was so like real. And funny thing is since then, since I booked that ticket, this was like, probably we went in February and I think I booked it like probably late December, early January, not had a dream since about Seattle. [Speaker 2] (41:27 - 42:17) Yeah. You know, this is, again, this is another thing where an individual can dialogue with their unconscious and, you know, ask yourself before you go to sleep, like, you know, send me some messages and, you know, like a lot of people don't remember their dreams. You know, I go in and out. I think it was young who said dreams were messages from God. So if you think of it that way, like is there some intelligence out there that's, that's coming from you, you know, from deep within your unconscious. And I've had stories of friends of mine. I have a friend of mine who like had a dream about the ocean over and over again. Then he like moved to Costa Rica and started this business and like super, super successful. And like multiple times I've had stories shared by friends where they had a dream and then they acted on that dream and their life just went in a completely different direction. And they found their path. They started a business. [Speaker 3] (42:18 - 42:46) There's so much, there's so much wisdom and inner riches. And he's taught in the imaginal world, me unconscious, you know, like our conscious perceptiveness is like the tip of the iceberg, you know, compared to what's available to us in the, in the unconscious realm. So any way which we can develop deeper attunement, you know, it's the right hemisphere of the brain, to the unconscious, to the dreams, like, you know, that's a person who to me is intuitive. That's the real alchemist, you know, they're listening on all levels. [Speaker 1] (42:47 - 42:49) Now a short break from the episode. [Speaker 3] (42:50 - 42:53) What feels different now compared to the beginning of the course? [Speaker 2] (42:53 - 44:36) For me going into this, you know, I was just hoping to kind of water some seeds that I've, I've had planted there and I feel like I've been able to do that and some thanks to all you guys. And it's just so great to have like a community of individuals who come together and help each other out and just kind of show you what's been missing. Cause I think what I've found has always been there. It's always been there right in front of me. And it just kind of helped me and my consciousness kind of find that and move forward with it. Like I always complained that I didn't have my passion, right? And I'm like, well, all I found is that it's always been there. And now I'm going to push that forward and try to make that something with a little, a little unique twist and hope that works out. But I'm so much more confident and ready to do that than I ever was. And that's thanks to you guys. And it's just, I don't, I don't, I don't really know how to put it into words, but like the help and the influence that I was able to see and see other people's hardships and realize you're not alone. You're not even close to alone. And all these excuses we make, it's just, it's great. It's been, it's been awesome. And yeah, I'm keep going through the modules as well. Just rehash them, learn more, do what I can to, to make my dreams a reality. That was Joe from round seven of rise above the herd. Um, as he said, I think many people listen to this, you know, deep down, like what's inside of you and what you have and what you want to bring into this world. So if you want to take it to the next level, uh, we have one week left before we start round nine, you can go to rise above the herd.co or the link in the show notes. And we'd love to go on this journey with you back to the episode. [Speaker 1] (44:38 - 44:41) So can I ask you guys, like speaking of dreams, cause I love dreams. [Speaker 3] (44:41 - 44:44) This is our podcast, Erin. We ask the questions. [Speaker 1] (44:46 - 44:53) You had your chance. Okay. [Speaker 2] (44:55 - 44:56) I know. [Speaker 1] (44:57 - 45:05) Um, so I'm curious, like, as far as dreams go, like what's been a dream that sticks up to you that has been like really poignant for both of you? [Speaker 3] (45:05 - 46:24) Oh man. Yeah. Well, I was having a recurring dream for a long time that I was like a Viking, like literally pillaging villages. Like I'm doing heinous things to like people, individuals, women, everything like, like full rage, full like chaos, like no fucks given, like storming through like my path in any means necessary. And, you know, to me that was definitely like an unintegrated, like primordial rage and anger and, you know, Aries energy. Like for me before that, before those dreams, before really working with that and integrating with that, it was definitely like more passive, more on the sidelines, less inclined to lead, to make decisions, to set clear boundaries, you know, and there was a homeopathic dose of that Viking that I really, really needed. Um, actually back then in Sydney, I went to a holographic kinetics practitioner. I don't know if you've heard of holographic kinesiology is, you know, it's ancient Aboriginal indigenous tradition. And anyway, for him in their mode and in their methodology, like he reckons it was a kind of thing. Um, I don't know if I buy into that completely, but for me, it's definitely hinting to like, you know, this deep unresolved anger that was yearning to be integrated and, you know, used properly. [Speaker 2] (46:25 - 48:06) Yeah. That's, that's my way of looking at dreams in the most simple way is like these energies, these archetypes that come to us, you know, reflect aspects of us. You know, I remember back when I was much more identified with being a people pleaser back in the days, um, you know, I definitely had more, uh, you know, let's say darker, aggressive, you know, qualities come to me in my dream, but I'm going to go on a different direction to answer your, your question. Um, a premonition dream that I had, um, right after I moved to Los Angeles, cause I think it's interesting. Like I think I've only had a couple, but right after I moved to Los Angeles, I was, you know, still, you know, bartending part as I was exploring, you know, all the other interests. And I worked at this place for a bit and, um, I had a dream and in my dream, like I walked into the parking lot of the place I worked at and I like go to the front, the front door and I look in, I was like, oh, the banquets look differently. People are wearing different uniforms. And so like the person, the hostess or whoever comes, I was like, Hey, like I work here like, oh no, the place was sold. It's under new ownership. And so like, I wake up from that dream and then later that afternoon I get a call from my manager and he's like, Hey, just to let you know, the place was sold. And, um, you know, it's, um, you know, so yeah, you don't, you don't have to come in, you know, pretty much. And I was already like on my way out, I was working like once a week, once every couple of weeks, but I was like, that was a trip. Yeah. Like he said it to me and I was like, dude, you have no idea what just happened. I had this dream last night. Like, what is that? You know, what is that? And you hear so many instances where people have these dreams predicting the future. [Speaker 3] (48:06 - 48:45) I mean, there's no doubt there's some kind of underlying connection, like, you know, etheric connection to everything. It's all to this wisdom that, you know, just wanting to make itself known to us. Like for me, like I studied the tarot, you know, several years ago and I've performed tarot readings and the tarot is communion with the unconscious. It's just giving the unconscious a container or a vessel to speak through in images and symbols and through meaning, you know, it's not like there's some external Oracle coming, something, what's going on. But, you know, there's ways through all divinations to access this kind of information. Um, I think it's amazing, you know, and it's a life half lived without experimenting in this world. [Speaker 2] (48:46 - 48:46) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (48:46 - 48:47) I love that. [Speaker 2] (48:48 - 49:09) Well, and I was going to say, and that's the tricky thing with a lot of dogma out there, religious dogmas, they would take this, these, a lot of these things we're talking about Carl Jung, the tarot, and they would think it's like in the realm of Satan, you know, and you're like, like, well, you're just discounting so much of the human experience of knowledge of wisdom that's out there because you're pigeonholed. [Speaker 3] (49:09 - 49:11) Do not lean on thine own understanding. [Speaker 1] (49:12 - 49:13) Yes, yes. [Speaker 3] (49:13 - 49:44) This was told to me this morning, trust the Lord with all. Do not lean on thine own understanding. Like what is that saying? Yeah. What do you have to make this morning on a conversation on Instagram? Like, what is that saying? Like, don't trust yourself. Don't use discernment. Don't be interested in being more intuitive and being more rational, being more reasonable, give it all up, outsource it completely to an external authority to lead your life and make decisions for you and wash your hands of all responsibility and hence wash your hands of all the power available to you to know yourself, love yourself and move through life in a deeper way. It's like far out. [Speaker 1] (49:44 - 50:51) You know, the funny thing is, is I used to be that too. Like I, because I was in religion, I was very deep, like Christianity. And so I totally, I've been on every side of every fence pretty much from my kids and schooling to like, we've unschooled, we've homeschooled, we've done public school, we've done private school, like, like politics. I've been on both sides. And now I'm like, I don't give a shit. It's all a scam. Like, you know, like religion where, you know, I've been, oh man. So I get it. And it's funny. I have people every once in a while, not a lot, but every once in a while, if I post something about, you know, Christianity or how I, you know, whatever, I'm not there anymore. I'll get every once in a while somebody in my inbox, you know, and they'll try to like, they'll bring me back to the Lord, you know? And yeah. And I'm like, you know what? Hey, I get, I've been where you're at. Like, it's kind of like, I know what, and you believe it so wholeheartedly. Like I get that. Like it's, it's a, I feel like most people, it's a very genuine, but it's over, I don't know. It's, it's makes me go, okay, there's no fear there anymore, you know? [Speaker 2] (50:51 - 51:22) Well, yeah. And ultimately at the end of the day, if a person is content and happy with where they're at, great. The minute you start trying to then project that onto me and tell me how I should live, then, you know, then we're going to have to have a conversation, but I'm cool with a person living their life and however they want. As long as they're not hurting another person. And if they feel connection to God or something through a certain medium, through a certain religion, great. But it's like, when you start to like not honor me and my boundaries and think, you know, better than me, like, sorry. [Speaker 3] (51:23 - 51:40) Yeah. I think, I think we need religion. What we don't need is dogma, you know, but religion in the truest sense, just a connection to meaning a connection to something deeper. Right. But you can have that without the dogma and without the black and white thinking and without the, you know, all the rest of it. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (51:40 - 52:43) Oh, you know, I agree. You know what, even when I was in my marriage, I would have this friend that was in seminary before that was, you know, got me, you know, like sent me stuff about Christianity. She would always tell me, you know, she's like, well, you know, the devil doesn't want you guys together, you know, and all these things. And, and that was just like, you know, and at that time I was very vulnerable to a lot of external, you know, thoughts and people that I trusted too. Right. I've known her since high school and whatnot and all of those things. Like, I don't think we realize when we're not asking questions back, like, you know, like when, for instance, when my son was like, Hey, what do you think I should do? It's like, well, what do you want? You know, when, and that's, you know, it's like when we're not trying, when we're just trying to tell somebody or project onto them based on just our own experiences, we're really doing people a disservice, like totally a disservice. And it speaks more about where that person is obviously. Right. Then, you know, I spoke more about where I was at that time. You know, I was filled with fear again. I wanted certainty. So I wanted everybody to believe the same way that I believed. And now I'm like, whatever works for you. [Speaker 2] (52:43 - 53:07) Because the vulnerability is too great for people to go, well, if, if they're right, if the other person is right, what does that say about me? And it's too heavy to sit with. And so they can't, they go into judgment control, you know, certainty, et cetera. And so it's like, this is where having the capacity to sit with not knowing, to be vulnerable, to be uncertain, can really serve an individual. And it's just, it's imperative. [Speaker 1] (53:08 - 54:51) Oh, you know, this brought up something for me, my, my dad, before he passed, it was probably about a year before he passed. And he, he knew he was terminal and whatnot. And we were sitting at his table one day, cause I was back in South Dakota, where he, where I grew up and where he was living at the time. And he's like, Aaron, and he's, was not a vulnerable, like, you know, he just was pretty stoic. His father was, you know, just like in that, like, anyway, but we had a pretty good, I mean, pretty good relationship for the most part, where he would ask me certain questions. And one of the questions he asked me, he's like, Aaron, he's like, where do you think, where he goes, where do people go when they die? And I was like, I love this. Like, I love this, like that we're here now. Like, because my dad never, I didn't want to do on, you know, I wanted him to, you know, if he wanted to go there, but here's what I said to him. I was like, dad, I don't know. Yeah. And I said, and here's the thing. All I can tell you is what I know from other people that I know personally who have had like near death experiences. And I know that the ones that I've talked to, at least personally, like they don't want to come back, but that's all I know. And I said, and if anybody tells you any otherwise, like, like, sorry to tell you, but they're lying to you because they don't know, you know? And because that's all I could tell him. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, you know, and, but we were able to like, that though, allowed us to go deeper into like this conversation that I felt off. It was like, it was exactly, I believe, like what he needed and what I needed as well to in that time, because we were able to go there, like to the uncertainty of it all. [Speaker 3] (54:52 - 55:50) Yeah. I think it has to be a mystery. Like it needs to be a mystery for us to do what we're here to do, you know? And that is to really, in my opinion, like claim the reins of responsibility and like be loving beings. And to me, love requires effort. You know, love for self is being responsible for self, love for other, for another is being interested in that person's spiritual development. But if we knew that things went on and everyone had full detailed information and imagery of what's next, like how the hell would you be leading your life? You know, you think there's laziness now? Imagine the laziness that existed if like everyone already had that, you know, that hall pass, that life goes on. And I knew that as a fact. And to me, that's the original sin. And M. Scott Peck says it as well. The original sin is laziness. It's our refusal to think. It's our refusal to put in the effort required to think and to lead our lives appropriately. And really, this is what religion propagates more than anything else. It's you don't need to think. You can be lazy in your thought process. [Speaker 1] (55:51 - 56:08) Yeah, you're right. Absolutely. You know, you saying that too reminds me of or it makes me think of Uranus. That's why we have Uranus, right? We can't see Uranus even with our naked eye, right? Saturn's the last planet that we can see with our naked eye. And Saturn's about the foundation and we want the control and the structures and everything else, right? [Speaker 3] (56:08 - 56:09) Very interesting. [Speaker 1] (56:09 - 56:41) We can't see Uranus with our naked eye, but Uranus in Greek, I think I might've mentioned this the last time we talked, it means, you know, heaven. It is like, I kind of feel it's like heaven at hand almost. That's how I, you know, think about it. It's like, okay, when we can embrace that level of uncertainty and you think about the archetype of Uranus, like what you can even think and fathom, it's not going to happen, not with that energy, you know? And so it keeps us on our toes or it's supposed to like keep us and we can't even see it. So we have to step, it's like out of bounds, so to speak, you know? [Speaker 3] (56:42 - 57:08) Yeah. Yeah, fully. Yeah. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness as well. So very, very dogmatic early days, early religious programming for me. You know, I was the kid running around school. You're all idiots for celebrating Christmas. You know, you're not going to experience paradise, this, that, this, that. But even then, back then I was so convinced I had the truth, you know, and I wasn't shy of it. I wasn't ashamed of it. Like I really stake my flag in the ground as you guys are the, you know, you're wrong, I'm right, you know? [Speaker 1] (57:09 - 57:17) Oh, it's a humbling moment, isn't it? When you're like, oh gosh, like at least it was for me. I was like, okay. You don't know. [Speaker 3] (57:18 - 57:42) Like the whole way, I've always found myself very comfortable in being the rebel and like taking the rebellious stance. So even when I eventually like started seeing through it, starting asking the questions, like all of a sudden then I really identified with the questioner. Like that's been my part, like always identifying with the person that's questioning the status quo, regardless of how small that status quo becomes. You're all infidels. I have the truth. [Speaker 1] (57:46 - 57:47) What's the truth, your SMS? [Speaker 2] (57:49 - 1:00:59) Can you please channel something down for us right now? No, I'll channel the fact that I don't have it, but I'm on the process of it, of continuing to seek until, you know, my last breath leaves me, you know? And I think it's just the process. And I know I've said it many, many times. And again, even this idea of this podcast here for the truth, you know, we are here for it. It doesn't mean we have it. It doesn't mean we know it, but we're willing to go on this journey. We're willing to have these conversations. We're willing to challenge our established belief systems. We're willing to keep learning and to stay in the uncertainty, you know? Yeah, sure. At times we may feel like we have, you know, more of a clear knowing and speak that like, you know, we're allowed to have convictions, but you still need to be connected to some degree of like, Hey, listen, I don't, this is where humility comes into play is like that word. Sometimes that word, I think, as I've mentioned before, it's like, it can make people like keep themselves small, but like humility to the vastness of wisdom and knowledge and the mysteries out there needs to impact a person's thought process and their behavior. You know, that's, that's what keeps people grounded and go, listen, like, yeah, I got my degrees. I've read all the books and I've done all this and fuck. Think of all the wisdom, all the knowledge, all the things out there. You really think you're like, Oh yeah, I know because you fucking spent four years as a college, like listening to someone read things out of a book, you know? And it's like, we experienced it the last four years, you know, everything that went on. It's like, it blows my mind that these people in the academic world who like specialized in a certain subject, like think they just like are immune to just being wrong or to not having the answer and to thinking they know everything. And then they can just pronounce that. And again, for people who don't have self-esteem and who are lazy from a, like a thinking standpoint, then they go, Oh, okay, cool. Well, this person, you know, that knows more than me, that's smarter than me, that has the letters before and after their name. Like I don't need to think I don't need to read books. I don't need to speak out for, they know. Yeah, they know. So again, it's like we say it all the time, but it comes back to self-responsibility. You have to claim responsibility for your life, for your body, for your health, for your thinking. No, it is yours. This life is yours. What's right for me may not be right for you or Joel. Like we, and this is why I do like human design and some of these more esoteric systems. They highlight the differentiation. They highlight that we're this, this unique fractal of the whole that's unique. And it's mine. My life is mine. My decisions are mine. The gifts that I have, my personality, my essence, all of it that make me this separate human being. Yes, the separation does exist. I get it. We're connected, but there is separation. I'm me. You're you. Joel is Joel. And so how do we honor that? How do we embrace that? How do we dive into that and own it? And then where do we go from there? [Speaker 1] (1:01:00 - 1:02:11) Yeah. No, I love that. And I think just recently, you mentioned duality a little earlier. You're asked most. And I think Joel, I think you had a post about duality maybe within the last few days. And then, yeah, it's, it's a both and, you know, it really is. It's like, yes. And this is also true at the same time. And like, I love the analogy of like the dance, like how can we dance, you know, in between those and hold space for that, you know, and rather than trying to just attach ourselves to one, one thing, you know, and it's just, yeah. And I think that is when, at least for myself, that is when life becomes more magical when I can just sit out again, like even this morning and sit and listen to my rooster, crazy Earl is his name, bro. And, you know, with my feet on the ground crying for my dad while I'm literally on a zoom call, I didn't have my video on, but like, you know, with, so, you know, a group call like where I'm like, this is all happening all at the same time. Like I'm, you know what I mean? It's just like, how can we navigate it all and still be present in the moment and, and, and be here just to be here. [Speaker 2] (1:02:12 - 1:03:32) Yeah. I think people need to be really, all of us need to be careful of the absolute statements that we make about certain things. Like duality is an illusion, you know, like, okay, I have many examples of it. Like, so we throw this word illusion out there. Like, what does it even mean? It's like people read something or they go to a class and they take something in and it just gets like programmed to them. And then they just regurgitate it that really, really thinking about it in terms of reality, in terms of what they experienced within themselves. So again, like you have to be responsible as a thinker. And as, as Ayn Rand would say, have an active mind, you know, like to really grapple with ideas and to think about things, you know, not just have an open mind. But really an active one. And then even from a human design standpoint, like to really understand our, our unique fingerprint and who we are and what's, what's unique about us and how we move through the world and how we make decisions. You know, that whole decision-making process, authority is like life-changing. I think that's the gift from a human design standpoint is strategy and authority. You know, for me is like, to understand that even in the context of your family or relationships to go, Hey, listen, your way of making decisions is different than mine. So how do we honor another person's individuality separate from ours, you know, and then move through the world that way. [Speaker 3] (1:03:33 - 1:03:42) On, on, on what level can human design start to become dogmatic? Cause I'm sure people have had experiences in that regard as well. So I'm curious your thoughts. [Speaker 1] (1:03:44 - 1:05:14) For me, I, I've actually talked about this a little bit online too, where, um, you know, I think anything can get dogmatic if we're looking for it. It's depending, I think, on the intention behind why we want to learn it. Right. Like, are we looking for another structure that we're going to feel safe within, or are we curious? Um, and where is that curiosity lead, you know, leading us into. And, um, so for, I'll give you an example. Um, there was a woman that reached out to me and I don't know her like personally or anything like that, but it was in a group. She reached out to me. She's wanting to sharing some stuff about her life, wanting to do some coaching. And she knows that there's something going on, right. That she needs like, uh, somebody to lock arms with. Right. Like she knows this. I share it with her and she's like, well, okay, well, I'm a reflector. So I have to wait like my 28 days, you know, at least to, to make a decision. And I'm like, okay, but you know, that you like, you know, like, so that, you know, just an, you know, something that I had recently over the last like probably month that, you know, or, um, I think too, is it's like, well, I mean, for having a completely open Ajna, I could go into the whole framework of like, well, I can never be certain or sure about anything ever because I have a completely undefined Ajna with no activation. So I can just be like floating around and blah, blah, blah, without like, wait a second, not what that means. You know? [Speaker 2] (1:05:15 - 1:05:45) Yeah. I think when we like rationalize whatever laziness or poor behavior through astrology, through human design, through this, well, I can't do that because I'm this. And it's very, just like blanket statements. Like, it's like, no, this is, this is cool information for you to explore and to experiment with and to see what works, but not to just be like, this is it. This is 100% me and anything else that goes against this. Like I can't, no, that's not me. It's not me. It's not me. Again, there's equality. There's an intention. There's an energy behind it. [Speaker 1] (1:05:45 - 1:05:46) You know? [Speaker 2] (1:05:46 - 1:06:24) And again, it's up to the individual to decide. They're relating, like each individual is relating to this knowledge, is relating to these tools, this information. And how do you go about doing that? Yeah. Maybe in the beginning, I think many of us, when we read a book that we're really drawn to or a teaching or a course or a philosophy, we might get a little, you know, attached to it, but this is the natural progression. Then very often we might flip to the opposite and then maybe we come back to a healthy balance as we dance between those opposites. That is life. That's the nature of duality to a certain degree. And we all go through that. I remember when I was a crazy health freak, you know, like in my early twenties, mid twenties, I would go around to everyone. How dare you eat that? [Speaker 3] (1:06:31 - 1:07:11) How dare you eat that? And the question that comes before and underlies any of these systems or ideologies is like, what do you actually value? And then the question beckons, does this information, does this knowledge, do these systems move me closer towards the achievement of my values on a daily basis? Does it take me away from it? You know? And for me, my values are very simple. I want to do passionate, fulfilling work that fuels my spirit and that creates value for me and my family. And I want to have healthy, connected relationships with the people I love and care about. So everything that I do, the discernment is always filtered throughout those two values. And in my experimentations, at least so far, human design has moved me closer towards the achievement of my values. Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:07:11 - 1:08:14) I love that, Joel. And I'm a big values person too. And I feel that if we are in tune with those for ourselves, right? Like mine, that are right now are adventure, impact, and there's things underneath it, right? This is kind of an umbrella and there's like different things that like support that, but it's like adventure, impact, growth, and expansion, and health. Those are like my biggest values right now, those kind of four values right there. And so that's like my GPS. So I think if we know that, right? Then we like, I also have like my emotional, right? Like through human design, but yet I can also go, okay, wait, does this align with my need for adventure and like my need for impact to have impact in the world or growth and expansion? And so we can sift those through that kind of, does this align with that? And I think for me, that makes decisions, especially being an emotional cloud sometimes, like a lot easier. [Speaker 2] (1:08:15 - 1:08:52) Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, again, if you don't really know what you value, what are you responding to? Again, as a general, like, what do you, you're just like, okay, here, I don't really know myself. I've just been projected onto my whole life. So it's like, even with human design, it's not just as simple as like, oh, well, I had a reading and I know my strategy and my authority. There's like pre-work that I think needs to go down because how many people have dysregulated nervous system and they're confusing a splenic response or sacral response with like a trauma response? So it's not- With a synchronicity, you know? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God, it's meant to be. This is my twin flame. Like, no, you probably shouldn't have sex with that person right now. Okay? [Speaker 1] (1:08:53 - 1:09:42) Yeah, absolutely. No, it's such a good thing. And I mean, and, you know, like even with readings and stuff, I got to a point where I'm like, this is just the Band-Aid. Like it's, you know, like this is the beginning of the journey. It's not the journey. It's the beginning. Now, how do you navigate this? Like in a way that is true for you versus even getting in the dogma, like we talked about too, right? And really having that healthy balance of like, okay, this is who I am. Now, how do I want to navigate life knowing this? Because I think a lot of people with these tools too, like, I love them. Like, don't get me wrong. Like, I love these tools, but one of my quotes I had like 10 years ago, 12 years ago, I was in a network marketing company. And one of the things they asked me, I was on a panel and I was like, this is a tool. Use the tool. Don't be a tool. Just use it though. [Speaker 2] (1:09:43 - 1:09:45) Yeah, don't be a tool. That's good. That's good. [Speaker 1] (1:09:45 - 1:10:00) Yeah, well, like use the tool, just don't be one, you know? And so like, and I keep coming back to that where I'm like, that's such, it's like all these things are tools are tools, like, you know, right. And how are we using them though? Or are we being used by them also? [Speaker 2] (1:10:01 - 1:10:14) And the proof's in the pudding too. You got to look at your life. Like what's going on? Like, are you content? Are you fulfilled? Are you satisfied? Like, if you're not, then like, you need to do something different. You need to make a shift, a change. You know, maybe the tool you're using is fucking dull and you need a sharper one. [Speaker 1] (1:10:14 - 1:10:17) Yeah. Maybe it's taking you further from your values. [Speaker 3] (1:10:17 - 1:10:24) Like you're saying, well, or maybe, Yeah, maybe using the wrong tool for the job, but you know, you need to see what else is out there and available. [Speaker 2] (1:10:25 - 1:10:40) Or you then go, oh, I just found a new tool. So I don't need to listen to the intuitive nudges that I'm getting that's coming from somewhere. It's like, no, now I have to just put all my, I have to create a new God of this new tool that I have and then like discount everything else or something that's coming from within. [Speaker 3] (1:10:40 - 1:11:34) This harkens back to our fear of uncertainty, us needing black and whiteness, us needing dogma. This is why we see people flip from, you know, new age to Christianity. You know, they just, they just changed what's on the altar. They just switched the tarot deck with, you know, a cross or whatever it might be. And like, none of it's scary, right? It's just, you're being called to venture out on your own and live within the uncertainty and be able to grasp and utilize and discern when things are needed at what time. But what I will say about human design is like, knowing myself as an emotional authority and going through the process of creating more space between like stimulus and response. That has been the most profound container for psychological growth in my life and in my relationships. And I think that's something that's universal to everyone. Like even a non-emotionals can benefit from, you know, taking time. [Speaker 2] (1:11:35 - 1:12:03) Well, I think they must because they're surrounded by emotionals and they're amplifying emotions. And so like, emotional reactivity in the moment is a no-no. Now we're going to do it because we're human. But like, if you think you going off on someone or you jumping into someone's DMs and fucking yelling at them is the truth. Like my sacral told me. Yeah. Like, sorry, like you need to chill. Okay. Because again, it's the quality of communication. It's the language, it's the energy behind it. [Speaker 3] (1:12:04 - 1:12:22) But it's like the discerning, discerning between like what is like a genuine response and like what has like a charge behind it, which is really distorting what's true in the moment. Like that's, that's the work. That's it. That is anything to focus your energy into. Like to me, like that's the thing that'll change your life. [Speaker 1] (1:12:22 - 1:13:16) Yeah. Well, Neptune, you know, has been in the 36 for, I don't know, probably three, four years now. I'm not even sure how long, but you know, that and the 36 is crisis, right? So it comes to the emotional center and it goes up to the throat. So it's like, you think about Neptune, right? Like there's a lot of delusion when it comes to Neptune, there's a lot of cloudiness and it has beautiful energy too. But when it's in the gate of crisis, are we just reacting emotionally from what we view as a crisis or do we maybe have to change our lens around what it could be? Because what if it's bringing us deeper into ourselves or deeper into, you know, like, like again, allowing us then to sit with whatever that is so that we can become more emotionally mature, you know? And I think that's been the journey for us as a collective for, you know, over the last few years. [Speaker 2] (1:13:16 - 1:13:45) I agree a hundred percent. And again, the solar plexus rules the nervous system. And so this is why the nervous system work is important. This is why more people are talking about the word somatics. I mean, now things are getting thrown around a little much, but like, can you build greater capacity within yourself? You know, to be able to dance with discomfort, to feel this stuff before you just immediately react. Because there's no consciousness around it. [Speaker 3] (1:13:45 - 1:13:50) Yeah. And because you know what else comes with that? Building the capacity to tolerate discomfort, you build the capacity to tolerate joy. [Speaker 1] (1:13:52 - 1:13:54) You know, it's for good things. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:13:55 - 1:14:09) You begin to compound good days. You begin to be able to, you know, have more capacity to experience happiness within your relationships, with your kids, with your partner, with the simplicity of things. Like it comes with profound gifts on the other side too. [Speaker 1] (1:14:10 - 1:15:16) You know, you're right. And you're mentioning something that's interesting because I remember before when I was going through just a lot of stuff, like, you know, just divorce and just really like navigating all of this. And for me, I remember thinking back on, I wrote a chapter in a book called Courageous Hearts, and I had to really reflect on this journey. And I was drinking a ton back then too. And it was like, I would think about like, am I drinking? Like I would drink even when I had a good day because there was only a level that I would allow myself to enjoy. Right. And I would drink when I had a bad day because I had to get myself that thermostat. I had to get myself between 68 and 72. If I go up before, you know, above 72, it's like I had to bring myself back down and same thing. Right. So that's a really good point that I don't think a lot of us really think about too much. It's like, you know, it's on the other side of that. We're able to hold space then for happiness and true happiness, you know, that like we can hold rather than trying to like sabotage it then or trying to, you know, take ourselves down. [Speaker 3] (1:15:16 - 1:15:51) Yeah. And not allow like every wrong thing that's said to us or every time someone misunderstood us or didn't hear us properly to completely skew, you know, our day and hijack our happiness and hijack, you know, it's like there's more space to have conscious communication as well. And like that way things can be smoothed out. Like when I think about the waves, you know, like doing this work really is like creating like smaller waves, like smaller kind of, you know, bumps in the road that can be dealt with. They're not as extreme. They're not as extreme or intense. [Speaker 1] (1:15:51 - 1:16:03) You guys felt that the more work you've done? Like, because that's been my experience too, where it hasn't felt so extreme. Like every once in a while still, I get, you know, but has that been your experience too, as far as like- Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:16:03 - 1:16:21) Yeah. But again, like this is, I go back to why I love human design, you know, as a tool is this element of authority and how many people are on a higher low and they literally blow up their life because of it. They end a relationship, they tell their boss to go fuck themselves, you know, they like, you know, go off on their kid, whatever. [Speaker 3] (1:16:21 - 1:16:34) Or even on an entrepreneurial endeavor, like they blow up the business, they blow up an offer because all of a sudden, like sales haven't come in immediately or, you know, things haven't worked out the same way they worked out last time, you know, all of a sudden they're switching lanes completely and not giving things a chance. [Speaker 1] (1:16:34 - 1:17:54) Oh yeah. I've done it. I mean, I had that 39.55, which is like that, you know, provoking. And then that 50 is like, oof, like I remembered before when I started working with my wave, when I first learned that I was emotionally defiant and my first reading that I had, I remember I was like, oh God, thank goodness, like nothing's wrong with me. I literally thought something was wrong with me. And, you know, and I started working with it. And so this has been a dreams before I would, I remember having this dream that I was standing on the beach. I was probably working with my wave about, I don't know, for about a year and a half at this time, maybe a couple of years. And there was like this huge wave that would come in and I was standing there and I didn't fall down. This other wave that came in, there was three total. And I remember standing there, like all three, and I remember turning around and like looking at the waves, like passing through. And that was so like, I remember waking up, I'm like, okay, like I'm really working through like these emotional waves that are like, but it was like in three, it was really interesting. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely, it's been a journey with the wave. And I have a passion for people who have, who either are emotionally defined that are unaware of it or people who are not defined and are living with someone who's emotionally defined and not aware of it because it can create such distortion. [Speaker 2] (1:17:55 - 1:18:31) Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, you hit the nail on the head before, like being like, nothing's wrong with me. Like within a day I could experience multiple seasons, you know what I mean? Like, and it's okay. Like, and also not have to then go after the certainty of like, why is this happening? Why is this happening? I'm not like at a hundred today. Like, no, I could not be at a hundred. It's okay. You know, tomorrow's a new day. I'll go to sleep and see what happens tomorrow. You know, I don't need to think like something's wrong with me. I have to fix it. And sometimes I just like the mood, the life that happens. You don't need to be a control freak, you know? [Speaker 1] (1:18:32 - 1:18:32) Oh yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:18:32 - 1:18:35) Give yourself time. [Speaker 1] (1:18:35 - 1:18:42) Yeah. I'm in a bad mood. Nothing bad's happened. And then I'll try to like, it's like, gotta be something external, you know? It's like, oh my gosh. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:18:43 - 1:18:55) Whether you're emotional or non-emotional from a new design standpoint, don't send the text immediately. Don't send the email immediately. Don't, you know, whatever, pick up the phone. [Speaker 3] (1:18:56 - 1:18:59) Don't storm back into the room. Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:18:59 - 1:19:53) Like just get away. Bite your tongue. Yeah. Bite your tongue, get away, you know, call a timeout, you know, write, write, you know, say you do want to get something, write it in notes in your phone. That's right. Come back the next day. Very often you realize you'll either delete 75% of it or delete or the whole thing, or maybe keep like two sentences. Like give yourself time. It's okay to have time. I don't know. This is, I think the other thing too, where I think this plays into it that we're, we feel like we need to like respond immediately in our, in our, everyone has access to us 24 seven with email and texts. So I think that adds to it. And people are like, I got to respond. I got to tell this person because I got to move on to a million other things that I got to do. It's like, just no, don't you're triggered. You're not going to get to a place of truth from this place to trigger. And it's probably going to impact the relationship in a negative way. [Speaker 3] (1:19:53 - 1:20:01) And it's going to like set you down a trajectory, you know, which is going to have to be like re reassessed down, down the road. [Speaker 2] (1:20:01 - 1:20:51) Like I could set off like a catalyst of, of events, goodness, you know, it's like, sure, your feelings are important, but in the moment feelings that have just come from a trigger, they, they will lead you to a place that you're going to likely regret. But yes, feelings are important over time. You gain wisdom from them. And then you can come from that place. I honor my feelings, but I honor them over time. I try not to in the moment. Now, am I 100% successful in that by no means? Am I not? You could just ask my wife, but still like, you have enough awareness to go, just chill. You're awesome. Let's just wait, like go to sleep, see what comes in a few hours. And so often you're like, whoa, thank God I did not send that text. Yeah. Like you read it over sometimes a text or email and you're like, holy shit. If I press send, like what would, what would have happened? [Speaker 1] (1:20:51 - 1:21:28) Oh yeah, absolutely. Sometimes too, what I'll do is I'll just like, if I, because I know that there's times if I'm in a wave, if I'm low, like I, I'm not even able to digest everything. That's like, somebody's saying, especially if I'm reading it. And so I'll just like, just to acknowledge, cause I'm one that, and I think it's as a manifesting generator too. It's that like, I want to, I want to be informed. I want to know what's going on. So to be like left kind of hanging, it's like, okay. So sometimes I'll just respond back and be like, Hey, I just want to let you know, I did receive this. I just haven't had a chance to like sit with it yet. So I'm going to go sit with it and I'll get back to you in a day or two, just because then they're like, okay. Like, I feel like that kind of helps. [Speaker 3] (1:21:28 - 1:21:52) Yeah. Perfect. You know, it, it, it, it acknowledges and you buy yourself proper time that's been communicated, but you know, there's some people who will be listening to this conversation and be so triggered by it because they're so identified with the chaos. They're so identified with feeling that trigger than that being who they am, then that them responding in that really highly emotionally charged way. And that is their, that has been their life and will continue to be their life. [Speaker 2] (1:21:52 - 1:22:08) Well, also, I think many people to have gone to the opposite of the, what was it as a more conservative or Republican talking point, facts over feelings. And so people would just go like, no feelings or everything, 100%. And you know, that's not the truth either. So, yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:22:08 - 1:22:11) And the, you know, like, right. It's the dance. [Speaker 3] (1:22:11 - 1:22:19) It's not a dance. It's not a dance. It's a wrestle. It's like, it's a grapple. Like, it's not, it's not pretty. It's not smooth. [Speaker 1] (1:22:20 - 1:22:25) True. True. You're going to get your feet stepped on I don't know if you've seen some people dance. [Speaker 2] (1:22:25 - 1:22:27) I don't know. It could be some people dance. It could be a dance. [Speaker 1] (1:22:30 - 1:22:31) Oh, that's funny. [Speaker 2] (1:22:31 - 1:23:35) This is it. This is the human experiences. We're human. You know, it's not going to be pretty always. It's going to be messy. We got to, you know, wrestle with it, dance with it, whatever with it, you know, and, and, and, and do our best and not vomit it over other people, like vomit all the stuff we're navigating and like take responsibility and go, okay, listen, I'm, I'm having experience. I'm triggered. I'm emotional. I'm angry. I'm sad. Like, all right, what do I got to, I got to navigate this. I got to deal with it. I got to sit with it, do what I can. Now, again, not everyone's in that position, but I think most of the people that are listening to this podcast probably to some degree on a personal development journey. And they're interested in things we're saying and they're, they want to grow. They want to evolve. They want to have a more regulated nervous system and build more capacity within the nervous system. So they can communicate more consciously, have better relations with their children, with their wives, with their friends, with their fellow workers, et cetera. And this is what's necessary, you know, and to be gentle with yourself and not just because you like, oh, I did a nervous system workshop. Now I should be totally regulated and perfect in the moment. No, like you're going to fuck up. You're going to like say some shit to your partner that you're like, oh man, I wish I didn't say that. [Speaker 3] (1:23:35 - 1:23:54) You know, but again, some people treat this, yeah. Some people, some people treat this stuff like as getting a degree, like just ticking a box, you know, and then I've done that and then I can move on. Like, this is life. Like this is ongoing relentless, you know, constant experiences, constant challenges, you know, it's up to you, you know, to get better with time. [Speaker 1] (1:23:54 - 1:24:36) Well, that's why I like Richard Rudd's like, you know, the gene keys. It's, I mean, I love human design, but I also love the gene keys as well too, because it does take that both end approach. It's like very feminine gene keys. I look at it as very like kind of fluctuates between the shadow and the city. Right. But, and, you know, and human design is more kind of like, it's like static. It's like right here. So I love the both of them because it gives just more of a context of it all. But I love what Richard Rudd talks about to the jinkies. It's like, we're not, it's not like we arrive at the city. It's not like we, it's not like shadow work. Like we move in from the shadow to the gift and the city and we move back and we're, it's just this constant ever like flowing energy. It's just. [Speaker 3] (1:24:36 - 1:24:40) And that's healthy. And that's healthy, you know? Yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:24:40 - 1:24:47) And if we can go, where am I at in this right now? Like, and have that awareness around it. I think that's the key. Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:24:48 - 1:25:07) And like, even, even from, even from a nervous system perspective, like it's not about constantly being in ventral, right. It's about being able to easily shift between the states and have that flow and, you know, and being able to move up and down with ease. So yeah, it's not like there's this end goal where like everything's perfect and, you know, nothing can challenge me and nothing's going to touch me anymore. [Speaker 2] (1:25:07 - 1:25:44) And also different situations require different parts of you, you know, require you to act and behave in a different way. You know, again, like Joel said, even your nervous system may be a different place. And so it's like, do you have that capability, the flexibility, the fluidity to, to kind of move through these things, you know, when the moment calls for it. So yeah, it's like, you're not just, oh, I've achieved the city and I'm now standing on the mountain and I'm now living the city out always, no matter what, even when someone hits me in the face with a baseball bat, I shall ignore it because I am living in the city and I'm this evolved being, you know what I'm like, okay, that's not life. [Speaker 1] (1:25:46 - 1:26:42) It is not life. That's for sure. Yeah, it makes me think I was, I ended up in the underground Atlanta. I don't know if you're familiar with Atlanta very well, but there's an underground, I mean, in a lot of cities, but ended up there with my two little, this is a long time ago, but my two little kids, not, it was, it was a long story, but basically I had to be hypervigilant in that state because there was a lot of shady things that were happening down there. And I had two little kids and the whole thing was closing. The, the, one of the entrances was closing and, and the only other entrance was like, or exit was to go up on this, on peach tree, which it was like full of, like, it was not a good place. And I was like, no way in hell am I walking with my two little kids, like, you know, on this street. And I, I mean, it was like, it called for that, you know, but it was like necessary at the time. Right. So we have to know what's necessary and now if I stayed in there for, you know, one, two days, three days a week, that obviously would be healthy, but you know, it called for me to be on court. [Speaker 3] (1:26:43 - 1:26:56) You have to have, you have to have circumstantial awareness. Like there's, there's no point where you get to where it's like, oh, this is who I am in every situation. Like that's, that's not rigid. So rigid. And it's not realistic and it doesn't serve anyone. [Speaker 1] (1:26:56 - 1:26:56) No. [Speaker 2] (1:26:57 - 1:28:09) Yeah. Also life's much more boring that way too, in my opinion. Like I love like the complexity of being a human. I love dancing, wrestling, this moving through different parts of me. And again, different situations call for different things. You know, how you speak, how you behave to this person may be different with another person in a different environment, how you are with your kids, how you are with your lover, how you are with your grandmother, how you are, you know, in a business meeting, like, like sure there are aspects of you that are going to be there, but to have the discernment and to know, hey, what aspects of me are going to provide more success in this situation? And this is why we talk about shadow work and wholeness is like, so you can be able to play all the different instruments and all of them, but you know, as many as you can and connect to them, their ways of thinking of moving of being, you know, cause you don't know what life is going to bring you. And so the more parts of you have access to the, I find the more successful you can be in life. And that ultimately makes you more compassionate. And I've said this over and over again, because you can see yourself in the other. No, like any person who sits there and thinks I'm 100% good. I only do good things. I have never had a thought that would be the opposite of good is lying to themselves. It's highly repressed. [Speaker 1] (1:28:10 - 1:28:10) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:28:11 - 1:28:17) You know, like the, the images, the thoughts that the random things that pop in your head, you're like, Whoa, that's interesting. [Speaker 3] (1:28:18 - 1:28:24) Like highly repressed or highly narcissistic. You know, like the whole driver of that is that they believe in that living is moral purity. [Speaker 1] (1:28:25 - 1:28:25) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:28:26 - 1:28:26) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:28:27 - 1:28:30) So disconnection. [Speaker 1] (1:28:30 - 1:28:30) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:28:31 - 1:28:48) Yeah. So I said that again, that is the work. It's like, how can you be with the, the, the, the complexity of who you are and be okay with it and, and honor that in another person and then communicate to another person from that place. And, and then even when there is conflict, like how do you repair afterwards? Cause you do understand these facts. [Speaker 1] (1:28:49 - 1:28:49) Yes. [Speaker 2] (1:28:49 - 1:29:10) No, it's like, just because the perfect person did a behavior doesn't mean they're a hundred percent that, you know, now again, if they consistently over and over again, do the same thing over and over again. And you're like, okay, let's just, I don't want to give any more energy to this person, this partner, whatever. Cool. But like we're complex. Like you can't just take one thing a person ever did and then be like, that's how that person is. [Speaker 3] (1:29:11 - 1:29:13) That's who they are. I know your type. [Speaker 2] (1:29:13 - 1:29:27) I know what you're like. Okay. Yeah. So, but again, this is what I love. This is what I think we all love. We're, we're in this work where we do these things, we support people in this or like condition. [Speaker 3] (1:29:27 - 1:30:03) Like what a, what a magical gift. Like what a magical journey to like be human and to, and to be so complex and also to have this awareness that's able to navigate and discern and evolve and grow and get better on this, you know, and the key is like fall in love with that process. The key is like become super motivated by that process, you know, of, of becoming better, of building discernment, of building greater capacity, of knowing the self, loving the self, you know, and ultimately you're, you're a creator. Like you're here to be a creative being, you're here to create, to give a gift. And all this does really is support you on moving towards your potential and unlocking that gift. [Speaker 1] (1:30:04 - 1:30:38) Yep. Amen. Well, and I think too, like there's an element too of like, like laughing at oneself too, right? Like, we can lighten it up and be like, okay, like I know, you know, just at times when we're, you know, just in something it's like, oh my gosh, like, okay, I see myself like, you know, if we can step back a little bit and see, which is why I love archetypal work a lot, you know, cause it's like, that's, it's a way that we can like step back a bit, you know, and detach and go, oh, okay. You know, rather than being so like, you know, dug into, to this persona. [Speaker 2] (1:30:38 - 1:30:46) Got to have a sense of humor within ourselves about like the things we do. Like I laugh at myself on a regular basis. [Speaker 1] (1:30:47 - 1:30:47) Yep. [Speaker 3] (1:30:48 - 1:31:20) Yeah. Well, you know, it's like to the ancient masters and esoteric and divinators of the past, like enlightenment was not lights. It was to move through life lightly. It was to be light footed. And this, this is ultimately the meaning of the it is to be, is to be flexible, is to be able to shift, to be creative, to be innovative, to not hold any massive burden. And so this is what we need to be moving towards ultimately. And this means becoming less repressed, becoming less armored, developing more psychological wholeness. [Speaker 1] (1:31:21 - 1:31:21) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (1:31:21 - 1:31:26) And so this is, that's the goal. Whiteness is the goal, not the lights, so to speak. [Speaker 1] (1:31:27 - 1:31:42) Ooh, I like that way that you put that. And I think about fool too with the need for that certainty, right? Like the fool doesn't need to be certain. The fool just, you know, everybody looks at, you know, it's like, what the heck? But like, they're the ones that are dancing through life, you know? [Speaker 3] (1:31:42 - 1:31:59) And he's, he's going, he's going on his journey. He's got, he's got his dog. He's got his, you know, his little sack and he's, he's stepping off the cliff ready for the path to make itself known to him. He doesn't have a set direction, a set journey, a set rigid, you know, thing in front of him. It's like, let me go over the experience. Let me go learn. Let me go see what happens. [Speaker 1] (1:31:59 - 1:32:22) And ultimately that's take, that's trust, right? You know, when we step off that cliff, right? When we want certainty so bad, it's just, it's just a reflection of like the lack of trust that we really have in life. When we can step off that cliff, like you were saying, I could just get that visual when you said it, it's like, I'm going to step off this and I'm going to trust that there's going to be something underneath that's going to catch me, you know? [Speaker 3] (1:32:22 - 1:32:26) The moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. [Speaker 1] (1:32:29 - 1:32:29) I love it. [Speaker 3] (1:32:29 - 1:32:38) And this is putting a message from day one is take the step, take the leap, you know, walk your authentic path, go out into the forest, carve your own way. [Speaker 1] (1:32:41 - 1:32:41) Amen. [Speaker 3] (1:32:41 - 1:32:54) Yeah. Erin, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for joining us for the past 90 minutes. We've absolutely loved this conversation. Love your energy with us and, you know, being able to hang in this setting has been really amazing. [Speaker 1] (1:32:55 - 1:32:59) This is my jam. I love this kind of stuff. So now it's great to be here with you guys again too. [Speaker 3] (1:33:00 - 1:33:06) Yeah. Do you want to let our audience know how they can get in touch with you, what you've got going on and I guess how they can connect with you and your journey? [Speaker 1] (1:33:07 - 1:33:25) Yeah, sure. So I'm on Facebook. I'm just Erin Esser. And my website is just erinesser.com. And I have a free webinar actually coming up next week on midlife stuff where I'm going to be talking about astrological transits and stuff too. So that's all on my page. So if people are can come check me out. [Speaker 2] (1:33:25 - 1:33:37) Yeah, we'll have all your links below in the show notes. And yeah, just appreciate you. I really love this conversation. I love all the different directions that we went in and definitely a kindred spirit. Yeah, totally. [Speaker 1] (1:33:37 - 1:33:42) Especially 11 chickens. We're both 6'2s. Uncertainty at all. So yeah, definitely. [Speaker 3] (1:33:43 - 1:33:44) There's a lot going on here for sure. [Speaker 1] (1:33:45 - 1:33:45) Absolutely. [Speaker 3] (1:33:46 - 1:34:03) Guys, thank you so much for listening. Hope you got value out of this conversation. Stay tuned for the wrap up. Take care. I love those conversations, man. Just people that are on the tip, people that get it, wholeness, able to flow. Nothing in life is black and white, but everything is sacred. [Speaker 2] (1:34:04 - 1:34:46) Yeah, for sure, man. I love those conversations. I love Erin. I love exploring the mysteries. I love diving into these subjects. I love personal development. I love being human. All of it. I'm just so curious about it all. I think a lot of people that are listening, I would say they're on a similar page. The journey doesn't end. You're not going to get to the place where you're like, now I have it all figured out. You have to just dance with life, wrestle with life. I love that you brought that term up. Just keep going forward. Have compassion for yourself. [Speaker 3] (1:34:47 - 1:35:21) It's okay to have down days. It's okay to take a step backwards every now and then. Sometimes it's necessary, but be where you are and be with it. Fully engaged, fully conscious, fully committed to what's present within and without. Trust yourself to know what's best, to know how to move forward. With that, you build self-esteem. You build discernment. You build your intuitive faculties. You build capacity. Life doesn't get easier. There's going to be constant challenges, but I think you can become better. [Speaker 2] (1:35:22 - 1:36:08) Oh, yeah. Again, when you have that whisper within you of what needs to be done next, fortune favors the bold. Do you begin something? Do you put yourself in a position for Providence, the universe, God to support you in your journey? It's a co-creative act. You have to decide. You have to act. You have to do the things that you know deep down are the things that you need to do. Look in the mirror. Take time with yourself during a meditation as you're walking and hiking in the forest. Really contemplate who you are and what you value and what do you want to do and create in this world. [Speaker 3] (1:36:08 - 1:36:48) Yeah, and what do you want to move towards? I think having a goal and having an objective that can be flexible and mutable is so important because having that North Star is what orients you. Now, it's what gives you something to measure against. Again, it can shift. It can change. It can evolve as you evolve, but know where you're going on some level. I just want to thank everyone for the incredible feedback that we received from our last episode, Life, Death, and Purpose, episode 170. Just really blown away by what was brought in and by the feedback and by how you guys received that episode. Thank you. [Speaker 2] (1:36:50 - 1:37:42) I echo that. I just appreciate the support over these last almost three years. I think May 17th, we're coming up to the anniversary of when we released our first episode on YouTube. Thank you so much. We just had our three-year anniversary of when Joel hit me up on Instagram and showed up in my request box. I think it was March 1st. Yeah, I cut a cake by myself. What did you say? I cut a cake by myself the other day for it. Yeah, three years. I mean, it's wild. We've only known of each other's existence three years. Again, this is to say you have no idea what's going to happen in your life. You may not have it figured out now, but you don't know what one choice will lead to, who you want to meet, what opportunities will present themselves. [Speaker 3] (1:37:42 - 1:38:43) But again- If you guys want to see a video of us meeting for the first time, go to the Are You Here For The Truth Instagram page and check out the pinned clip. We met for the first time last year in April and I think it's beautiful. It makes me fucking laugh and cry every time I watch that. But send us a message, leave us a comment. We'd love to hear from you guys. Touch base. On a final note, there's one week left to join Rise Above The Herd round nine. So if you're inspired by these conversations, by what we do, and you feel called to take action in moving towards greater wholeness, unlocking your gifts and walking your authentic path and experiencing greater joy and building your capacity to deal with all of life, then riseabovetheherd.co or the link in the show notes. If you have specific questions, send us an email. There's even a WhatsApp button on the page if you want to message us directly and have a conversation about whether it's a good fit or not. But yeah, seven days left. We'd love to see you inside. There's no time greater than now. So much love. Peace.