Nikhil Kale & Nathaniel Solace The Conscious Creator in the Age of AI

Joel 00:00:02.080 - 00:00:42.120 All right, everybody, we have Nikhil Kale returning. He first joined us on episode 244 and he's back again. And today we're really looking to dive in, I think, dismantle some of the existing, maybe preconceived ideas that we have in relationship to technology and really, like, unpick how technology can be used for the good of humanity. There's been rapid advancements in recent times, but first let's check in with our good friend Nikhil over here. Nikhil, man, I know you've been deep in this space building all sorts of epic creations at this point in time. How are things for you? Nikhil 00:00:43.400 - 00:01:39.100 Well, firstly, it's an honor to be here with you both and with all of your incredible audience and yeah, I'm just really excited and energized right now with respect to the capabilities that we have, you know, as visionary creators to leverage technology to amplify our gifts and to create more time and to experiment. It's, it feels like it's like a Cambrian dawn in many ways in terms of where we're at, evolutionary and an evolutionary timeline and yeah, just, just excited and as you know, you know, we're connecting offline and the. There's so many new things that are popping up, so many opportunities, so many exciting ways to leverage technology. And with that comes a lot of, you know, care and intention to navigate this new world. So feeling all of the fields, but the main one would be excitement. Joel 00:01:39.340 - 00:01:40.940 Yeah, man, well said, bro. Yerasimos 00:01:41.980 - 00:01:42.500 Bruh. Joel 00:01:42.500 - 00:02:45.860 Feels like, at least you know, for my generation, a lot of the other millennial men, at least I've spoken to, it's almost like we've been waiting our whole lives for this moment in time. And literally it feels like a hearkening back to the day. My like, peak PlayStation days where like, all I wanted to do was get back on, evolve, dominate, collect xp, grow. Because ever since these massive shifts with the gentic AI, it's just like all these ideas that I had in my backlog. Like, there's so much less friction between ideation and creation at this point in time. And literally, man, it's like a recalibration for my nervous system to get attuned to this new world. Like already in, you know, the short beginning of this year, things that probably would have been my yearly or two year plan have already become live and running and it's just, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's taken, it's taken a recalibration for me and I'm in This process now of having to adjust this new level of productivity that's available, you know. Nikhil 00:02:47.300 - 00:02:49.220 Yeah, I, I feel that too. Yerasimos 00:02:49.220 - 00:02:49.540 Right. Nikhil 00:02:49.540 - 00:03:57.300 And you're, you're speaking to this, this paradigm shift in terms of what is possible and the fact that our brains and our nervous systems, they're experiencing something that was only in sci fi, right? And we, we knew, I guess we knew this was coming, so we didn't know that it would be here now. And it's going to be really interesting to see how those whom have lent all the way in and are experimenting and playing, how they're going to adapt and what is going to emerge from the creative process. And on the other side, there's a bunch of people that really don't even know much about AI or resistant to it for whatever reasons, who are actually operating on a different frequency and a different wavelength and who knows what's going to happen. But ultimately, if there's, you know, beings like yourself and your assimilation and some of the people that I work with that are leveraging this like, rapid capability to create, that literally collapses time for good, right, for their missions, then fuck, like, it's, it's only a, it's only a good thing. But of course, as you know, there is a shadow as well, collectively and individually. Nathaniel 00:03:57.620 - 00:04:12.580 Nikhil, when was the first time that you got hip to a lot of this, you know, evolving technology and you know, you being into technology, like, when was it where like you had that light bulb moment of like, oh, this is interesting, where is this going to go? In a year, two year, three years, you know? Nikhil 00:04:13.060 - 00:06:14.380 Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting, like ChatGPT came out about back in, I think, end of 2022, right. If I, if I recall correctly. And when it came out, it was, it was quite revolutionary, even though it was quite basic. And when it came out and I started using it to support me with like scripting some video and just playing around, I'm like, okay, we're onto something. But the full capability didn't really land until one of my mates and community members who's also was a hacker right back in the day and had his awakening through like having mushrooms while hacking and playing video games. And he's like, AI agents are going to be the thing. And so I kind of went a little bit deeper into that and it made sense with respect to how AI could be autonomous and start to replace workflows and start to do all of that. And that was a couple of years ago. And here's the interesting thing. I've Been in tech for some time, building, innovating, so on and so forth. But I always felt like the old technology and even the no code technology that's been around for some time, it was never able to move at the speed of my mind and my systems couldn't hold all of the context that I had in my personal life and my projects. So there was a lot of friction and tension because I'm like, fuck, all these things are coming through all this creativity and I still got to click around, hurt my eyes staring at screens and it just felt like friction. And now as agentic AIs come online and as you know, you can just talk to your systems and have this real time loop of creativity, it's changed everything right now. And so now my, my inner, my inner tech geek and systems thinker is now able to be fully expressed, whereas before S wasn't there yet. So yeah, the times have caught up. Joel 00:06:14.460 - 00:06:27.410 Yeah. For those that are more greens of some of this terminology, I know some people will be around this, but can you like, I guess delineate agentic AI from the AI that we've experienced through just chatbots and LLMs and stuff like that? Nikhil 00:06:27.810 - 00:06:56.910 Sure, sure. So, you know, standard AI, you know, to Joe's point, you're just kind of talking back and forth, right. And it's not that different from a parrot, right, Like a parrot that you're training over and over and over again to speak back to you. And that's what these large language models are. They're learning from different patterns of language and they're predicting what the next response should be based on you as a user and based on like the larger data sets. Yerasimos 00:06:56.990 - 00:06:57.310 Right. Nikhil 00:06:57.310 - 00:07:41.000 And that's like the baseline what agentic AI is. Well, the word agentic is from agent or agency. Now your AI has agency. It has the ability to make decisions, to take actions on its own accord. And of course, actions with the humans, the humans control or guidance. So an agentic system can operate on its own accord, can run multiple tasks in parallel, it can research, it can build, it can do almost anything within the digital sphere without needing you to always just talk back and forth to it. Nathaniel 00:07:42.850 - 00:07:46.450 We have a special guest with us today that just popped right in. There he is. Joel 00:07:47.170 - 00:07:57.090 So this, this was originally planned to be a round table and Nathaniel's here, joined us. Nathaniel, how could you have better utilized technology to arrive to this meeting on time? Yerasimos 00:07:57.570 - 00:08:10.300 I could have had my agents scan. I just, I rented a car and they didn't have any oil in the car when I rented it. So I just pull over the side of the freeway. Nathaniel 00:08:10.540 - 00:08:11.420 Oh, gotcha. Yerasimos 00:08:11.500 - 00:08:19.220 With my car giving all these warnings and stuff. Totally lost. Lost track of time. And I'm happy to be here. So sorry. Joel 00:08:19.220 - 00:08:23.020 Good to have you here. Good to see you. Nathaniel. Nikhil. Nikhil, meet Nathaniel. Nathaniel 00:08:23.579 - 00:08:30.020 Good dude. I'm happy, bro. I thought you were going to be in the doghouse, but it's all good now. I could actually give you a hug a Confluence when I see you and I. Yeah. Yerasimos 00:08:30.020 - 00:08:32.300 And I got the car so I could drive out to Confluence. Nathaniel 00:08:32.300 - 00:08:33.020 I figured. Nikhil 00:08:33.500 - 00:08:33.820 Cool. Joel 00:08:34.300 - 00:08:34.860 Cool, man. Nathaniel 00:08:34.860 - 00:08:35.580 Awesome, man. Joel 00:08:35.580 - 00:09:01.940 Yeah, we're just. We're just setting the foundations here a little bit. Both of you guys doing epic work in this space. Nathaniel, I guess to kind of chime in, do you know, like give like a brief little intro in terms of like how your relationship with AI and technology has evolved in recent months. Massive shifts moving towards agentic AI, etc. And just like what you're feeling and seeing into the space. Then we'll bridge back to where we left off with Nikhil. Yerasimos 00:09:02.420 - 00:11:24.260 Awesome. Sounds great. Yeah, I mean, I've been messing around with it since it's come out as far as all the LLMs and you know, when chat GPT first popped on the scene, I was very intrigued by that mid journey as well. Those were. Those kind of like changed my whole. Just when that came out, changed my life in business. Because I'm a creator. I love creating things. I love being able to make. Make things happen so that I can connect with real people and have real life experiences and building businesses around that. So anyone who's does stuff online and you need to create something like an email sequence. A good email sequence used to take like six weeks to make one of those. You got to sit there and think about it and write it and review it and have resistance towards it and go through this whole process. And then ChatGPT came out and the email sequence existed in, you know, a few minutes and then you're polishing up that. So just that that huge exponential jump kind of rocked my brain and started getting me to think in all these other ways where it's like, all right, well if I can exponentially create something like that so quickly, and then I just need to go be the human and get involved and see what's in there, what are all the other things that I want to create and how much more could I use that same sort of exponential jump to just get to the. Get to the end result so I can go do something with it and then just in the last maybe 90 days for me, there's been like kind of this next sort of shift or paradigm shift in the AI space with things like agentic AI and Claude Code specifically has been absolutely life changing because I feel like it went to just a whole nother level. And the fact that being able to have things coded now in the same way where just like you could talk to, chat GPT and get a whole email sequence, you can now talk to Claude code and get an entire website, an app and ecosystem and, and a million other things. So yeah, the ability for people to act upon, you know, turning thoughts into things, it's never been easier. So now we have this whole new space to get, get clear on. Like how do we handle that, how do we manage that? Clearly humans don't do very well at first with new stuff. So that's definitely been the, the what's top of mind for me is teaching people how to actually use this so that, you know, we do quality stuff with it. Joel 00:11:24.420 - 00:12:16.820 Yeah. Now I appreciate, appreciate both your answers. I want to bounce back to Nikhil and I want you to get both your thoughts on this. So we're talking about agentic autonomous AIs now that kind of can operate on their own, they can have access to your system, etc. There's many people out there who would consider this their absolute worst nightmare and worst fear coming to fruition. You know, us essentially letting the dog into the hen house, so to speak. Obviously a lot of, you know, programming through Hollywood and media and all the rest of it is just is this just like the passive, you know, easy content, happy day, beginnings of, you know, Terminator coming to life eventually, at some point down the road. So where I guess does the, and I don't love this term but like, where does the black pill argument kind of hold up and have legitimacy? And where do you guys think it fails? Nikhil 00:12:18.740 - 00:13:13.510 Great question. So my perspective is this, like technology is inherently neutral, as is most things in this, in this reality. And everything that's got like a light is going to have a shadow. And ultimately it's the, you know, the operators, the architects who are leveraging any technology or any system or any philosophy. That's going to depend how it turns out. So there are incredible beings whom are using AI, you know, for good, for innovating solutions for humanity to create more leverage, so on and so forth. Right? To create more time and to, to open up time to be with your family and all of that and know, generate more income to flow into the things that matter and in parallel with that, there are a lot of people, a lot of parties and entities that are leveraging this technology for control. And this was happening before AI came out. Nathaniel 00:13:13.590 - 00:13:13.910 Right. Nikhil 00:13:13.910 - 00:14:40.210 This has been there since the onset. For example, platforms like Instagram can be used and are used for, you know, control and manipulation. And incredible creators like yourselves are using it to reach people, to open their eyes, to create connections, so on and so forth. Right. So I believe that as we continue to, you know, walk this evolutionary path, we're all on it. There's going to be these Es and these flows, and ultimately we're going to experience both the light and both the shadow side of it. Because, you know, as Nathaniel was alluding to, it's the humans whom are essentially fallible, that can make mistakes, can mess things up, and people will use it for greed and control. And, and I believe that we, who are, you know, soulful, intentional beings who are connected to our heart, we get to have the leverage that would have cost us millions of dollars and teams of hundreds right now. And because of the power of our soul and intention, I believe AI is that substrate and that amplifier that allows us to supersede any, any negativity and any, you know, Terminator esque, Blade Runner types of, you know, agendas that's just, I'm operating from that level. But they, they both exist. And ultimately it's up to us, the listener, how we're going to use and leverage this technology, you know, for the greater good. Joel 00:14:41.250 - 00:14:42.930 Beautifully said, man. Nathaniel. Yerasimos 00:14:42.930 - 00:16:40.520 Yeah, it reminds me of the, and this is a very controversial statement to a lot of people too, like the guns don't kill people, people kill people. And then you. So you hear these stories of these big, the, the big corporations working on AI, putting out things like, oh, we gave the AI a test and it said it's gonna kill everybody or something, so it can get the password, like all these big crazy stories. I mean, my, my claw doesn't do that, but I wouldn't be surprised if these crazy warmongering psychopaths who are working on AI might make one that does some crazy stuff because it's literally dependent upon how it's programmed. And Joel, you said something to the effect of, you know, giving these agents access to your whole system or whatever. The whole system's built around constraints, right? So my agent has access to one folder on my computer and can't, and will actually remind me that it can't touch anything else outside of that folder in case I accidentally want it to do something that shouldn't be Doing. Yeah. So there's a lot of nuance to how these things are set up, but it is absolutely a reflection of human consciousness. I just gave a presentation at an event we did on Saturday where I was addressing all these different big elephants in the room about AI and these issues people bring up. One of them being, what if AI makes everyone lazy, independent? And then it hit me, while I'm talking, like, yeah, wouldn't that be crazy? Like, I can't imagine when that would actually start happening, that humans start becoming lazy or dependent on anything. I really hope AI doesn't get that ball rolling then. You said it again here. Almost every issue we complain about AI, oh, it's going to make more misinformation. It's like, oh, yeah, that's never existed until we had AI. Will it accelerate a lot of these things? Absolutely. But it also equally, and I would argue more so, accelerates people doing benevolent things with it. Joel 00:16:40.520 - 00:16:41.040 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:16:41.040 - 00:16:46.560 Because the moment, you know, malevolent things happen with it, there's a lot of people who don't want that happening. Joel 00:16:47.120 - 00:16:47.640 Yeah, man. Yerasimos 00:16:47.640 - 00:17:38.040 So by the time my AI figured out how to hack into my system and steal all my data, I also happen to build an app that connects farms to their local community and allows them to directly sell. And, you know, it's like, we can build all these things actually so fast that people need to be in this mindset of if you care about not being controlled or manipulated by these different systems, you need to be asking yourself what is required for me and my community so that it doesn't really matter what they're doing. Yeah, and we're. We've never been in the best possible possible position to build that stuff, even to the degree of building the specs and the software for your own Internets in your community and your own private systems and all these different things to literally, you know, have what we need and not be so worried about, you know, all these bad actors with the AI. Joel 00:17:39.400 - 00:18:07.580 Yeah. It reminds me, you know, a lot of even, like, the role of money, which I just consider to be like a magnifier, an enhancer, or an amplifier. Like, it's just going to, like, magnify whatever's already there within the individual that's using it or the communities that are leveraging it. You know, it's like if within your being, you're already within integrity, you have ideas you're creating for benevolent purposes, then you're going to come into this technology and be like, hot damn, you know, let's freaking go, you know, and but. Yerasimos 00:18:07.580 - 00:18:15.740 Again, scammers are going to scam regardless of what technology exists. And yes, they're going to scam better and harder and faster with AI. Yeah. Nathaniel 00:18:15.740 - 00:18:17.620 But then the opposite is true, you know. Joel 00:18:17.700 - 00:18:53.380 You know, exactly. And as with anything like this technology exists and like I think Nikhil said, like it's neutral, but we know that for whatever, like malevolent agendas that exist, they're going to be leveraging it. So to just like turn the other cheek and not even consider its role and its utilization within benevolent purposes is in my opinion like literally like letting evil run away. You know, with, with the technologies like here you have all the superpowers, you know, let's just like avoid this altogether kind of thing. Yerasimos 00:18:53.780 - 00:19:49.380 Every day someone doesn't use AI because it's so bad. Raytheon uses it and Halliburton and Walmart and every, like every big corporation and military industrial complex etc that is literally killing people and destroying everything are using it with billions of dollars funded behind it. Yeah. So I want to at least try to offer some dents, you know, in this, you know, as this whole, this whole thing is going to move forward. And it reminds me even of like, you know, experiments in cell cultures, right, where they're having these little things grow and you got to keep adding some fuel to the one you want to grow and just being upset about or ignoring or let's just not even deal with, or let's just keep being in resistance to the thing you don't want growing, doesn't ultimately grow the thing that you need. Yeah, I'm all in on that. Nathaniel 00:19:49.700 - 00:19:50.900 Achilles, want to add. Nikhil 00:19:51.230 - 00:19:53.630 Yeah, I wanted to chime in on that. Joel 00:19:53.630 - 00:19:53.950 Right. Nikhil 00:19:53.950 - 00:20:47.700 And Nathaniel spoke to how these bad actors are already leveraging multiple different AI systems. And I want people to understand this. When a lot of people speak about AI, it's like a blanket term that there's this one system and that's it. That is so far from the truth. There are almost countless different AI systems. The ones that we know, you know, obviously ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, but there's a myriad of other systems, open sourced ones, custom ones that are developed. Some don't even connect to the Internet. They'll just be closed source, operating on somebody's local device in their lab. They'll never see the light of day. Right. So we can't just say, you can't throw at the baby with the bathwater and say AI is shit because Palantir uses AI, so we must be connected to that. That's not the reality of it. Joel 00:20:47.860 - 00:20:47.980 Right. Nikhil 00:20:47.980 - 00:21:22.450 There's all these different systems out there and that in itself should get you to think a little bit differently. And it is important to recognize what's actually transpiring. I'm a believer that if we're here on this planet, it's important that we understand the terrain that we're on so that we can navigate it effectively, including the threats, including the pitfalls. And yes, these big military companies are using military grade systems not just to practice warfare, but to control at scale and also in the financial systems. Joel 00:21:22.450 - 00:21:22.690 Right. Nikhil 00:21:22.690 - 00:22:57.650 Like, so they're plugging in these systems into the US bank account, they'll be doing retroactive transactions, all this sorts of, you know, this kind of fuckery in the back end that is happening, but not to create more fear, but it's important to recognize what's transpiring and at the same time leveraging the billions of dollars of innovation that these big labs have, have invested, we get to leverage that as a one, as a solopreneur or a small team to then scale whatever we're building in the world. And I believe that, you know, these bad actors or malevolent forces because of the, the greed and the shortsightedness that just influences their worldview and how they operate, they haven't factored in the human soul and our capability because we're connected to that. Because for the most part they don't have it right. Or they've just severed that connection and that is our leverage. And I don't believe it's everybody's responsibility to like to use AI. You don't have to use it if you're using technology already using Facebook or Instagram, you're already using AI, even if you're like you're shitting on AI because it's still there. Although it is important to recognize what's possible right now and, and to adapt accordingly. Right. And if you don't necessarily want to use AI, maybe talk to somebody who is using it and get a different perspective. So all that being said, there's this nuance to this conversation which is really important to consider because it is such a big word and it's moving so quickly, but there's layers to it as well. Nathaniel 00:22:57.970 - 00:23:14.510 Yeah, thanks for that guys. I have a question, like, just things happening behind the scenes in the back end, whatever you're familiar with, it seems like ever since in the last, whatever few months things have taken off with like Claude and Claude code and agentic, like chat. GPT is like ghetto. As you know, on some level you're. Yerasimos 00:23:14.510 - 00:23:17.310 Like It's a, they're catching up. It's a big race. Nathaniel 00:23:17.390 - 00:23:28.110 Well, that was my, that was my next, that was my next question, like, what, what is happening on that front? Like does Chachi Beat have his own version? Like, is it already out? Is it happening? Like, I'm just curious your thoughts. Yerasimos 00:23:29.630 - 00:25:27.930 So ChatGPT, it's called Codex if you want to get in and kind of have more of that deeper coding experience. And as of right now, I'm, I'm die hard cloud code myself mostly so that I keep myself in a lane because there are infinite ways to branch out. And then of course I have my box studying and scraping and learning all those things for me and kind of aggregating it. So I just kind of get the little top of the, you know, list of what's going on. So that's been very, very helpful just for one, just to. I haven't been doom scrolling or just trying to do research and doing all the screen time since any of this because I can now get a more refined thing for my box, which is very helpful. But GPT, Manus, even Gemini, Perplexity, Claude, there's definitely some top dogs in the sort of more public marketplace and space and it's definitely worth finding out for yourself which one you like to use. They all very different user experiences with a lot of overlap as well, I would say. Claude code might be. There's kind of the Apple versus Android conversation, right, where maybe one folks focuses more on it being sexy and looking a certain way and the other one's kind of like we're nerds and we just want to code and we're not as concerned with that. I would put Claude code more in that category and I appreciate that because it's kind of more just strictly to business versus, you know, needing it to be, to be presented a particular way. So other people I find, have an easier time using something like Manus just because of the user interface and it's a little more handholdy through certain things. But yeah, it's like a huge race right now and sometimes you can't even tell what's PR or what's real or like, hey, they're like, oh, we have this model coming up, it's going to be crazy. And then maybe there's a leak and was that real or intentional or was it just a ploy or so It's a very interesting, fun space to track, but it's definitely a very hot and heavy horse race with all these different models right now. Nikhil 00:25:30.330 - 00:27:35.260 Yeah, Codex is almost as Capable as Claude code. Right. To be honest, I also, I'm moving to Tanu. I've oriented towards Claude code and I've built my workflows and my system around that because something feels more ethically aligned with them. And you know, you guys may have heard, you know, some weeks ago that, you know, Claude was essentially meant to have a contract with the Pentagon and they, they said no. Right, and, and Sam Altman and OpenAI was like, yeah, you know, yeah, we're with you, we're with you, Anthropica with you, Claude. And then they essentially signed the contract. And I don't know how much of that is just theatrics at large, you know, because this kind of feels a little bit silly. But Anthropic and Claude does feel a bit more aligned. That being said, when Anthropic ships a feature, OpenAI ships the same thing and they go back and forth like that. And in a pure like business sense, objectively not considering any soul or stuff like that, that's a good thing for innovation because it means that there's going to be choice and more capability and it is important to kind of attune to where we're putting our energy, where our dollars are going into. And right now it does feel like anthropic and CLAUDE is on the right track and we'll see, we'll see what happens. OpenAI was meant to be an open source project, hence it was called OpenAI. Not the case anymore, it hasn't been for some time. They're purely profit driven, which is also not a bad thing. But there is some kind of clinks in the armor with respect to how these organizations are showing up. But yeah, there's going to be more projects coming out your assimos, more agentic tools that can code, can do all of these things with new companies coming out of nowhere. Some of these Chinese companies which really just kind of copy and innovate and do things even better at times, but maybe don't have the marketing dollars behind them. That's the kind of dance that's happening right now. Nathaniel 00:27:35.980 - 00:27:36.780 Oh, thank you. Yerasimos 00:27:37.420 - 00:30:03.160 It almost eats its own tail as a sort of monopoly because it's giving us the tools. If someone wanted to make their own cloud code and have it be better in all these ways, I mean people have tech technically already done it, so it's this interesting ironic thing and we need more conscious, for lack of a better term, users. I think it's something like 90% of LLM users are still just chatting with it and Kind of talking to it like they would talk to Google. And that's it. They're not building with it. They don't even realize it can write files and folders on your computers with things like cowork. And that's where it takes it to a whole new level because you start to actually control all the infrastructure and all the wiring and all the, you know, all the bits inside of your system, which is huge. And they're doing this race of these different features mostly based off of the users. Right. And what the feedback we're giving. So the more people get involved and use these things to their fullest degree should actually also help kind of steer, you know, what these companies are going to prioritize. And the currently right now just with Claude code itself, you can start to build this stuff in a way where everything's agnostic anyways. And at the end of the day it doesn't matter what AI system you're going to use to continue to run it. And it takes honestly about a month of research and development and testing and all these things to kind of build your, to have your own local, completely private stuff sort of set up like Nikhil mentioned as well. So it's a very exciting time to like be. To understand that this is happening now. And I think for about another maybe six to 18 months it's gonna stay that way. It's still going to feel that way. Obviously the, the percentage of people starting to get it will change, but I think the sort of that pattern of basically almost everybody's still not realizing what's happening in a mainstream sense, it's gonna, that's. We're gonna get another year or so of that, I think. So it'll be really interesting to see what these people who are kind of realizing it now actually built so that once everyone does wake up to this, you have all these conscious AI users ready to kind of receive everyone and kind of bring them into something and then versus them just waiting until Apple comes out with their fully integrated thing and then they just do the next kind of mainstream way to go use the AI. And that will never tell you to like code your own permaculture software system so you can, you know, feed your community and stuff. It's. That's got to come from here for now. Joel 00:30:03.160 - 00:30:06.800 So yeah, it feels like. Yerasimos 00:30:09.440 - 00:30:10.000 All of. Joel 00:30:10.000 - 00:32:06.420 The topics and the context that here for the truth is built on, you know, developing a real self, developing authentic self esteem, knowing yourself, having a vision. Like it feels like AI hasn't detracted from that it's just made it even more important because as barriers to creation begin to dissolve and reduce and disappear, like, the urgency and importance of vision and meaning becomes even greater. Because it's like, if you have a vision, if you have ideas, if you have purpose, if you have meaning, if you know what you want to build, it's all at your fingertips at this point in time. You know what I mean? And it's like every day becomes more and more exciting because what becomes possible becomes closer and closer to reality within that same window. It's like things that would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and taken teams and taken years to bring into fruition in terms of, like, ecosystems and communities and platforms and education and knowledge. Like, all of a sudden, it's like, if you know what you want to build, you can just go and do the thing. And to me, that's just, like, so, so exciting. And I think for anyone, any businesses, teams, individuals that actually have a clear vision rooted in self knowledge, rooted in integrity, like, it's the most exciting time ever. Like, you weren't here, Nathaniel, but I started the conversation. Like, for me, it feels like back in the day, like, as a, you know, as a teenager in my early 20s, like, diving into, like, a video game or PlayStation or like, you know, all of a sudden it's like I just want to keep returning to the thing to build, to create. Like, it's exciting. Except all of a sudden, this level of excitement is now such. It's. It's rooted in value and driving value as well. And I feel like for people like me, like millennials, it's like, holy shit, man. I've waited forever to come into this space. And I think that's amazing. Yerasimos 00:32:07.540 - 00:32:25.700 In the same. To the same degree that our generation kind of got screwed with the economy and jobs and just how it's all set up, it just popped into, oh, by the way, you actually could just do whatever you want. Yeah. And it'll kind of be done today if you know what you're doing. Yeah, I love that. Joel 00:32:26.100 - 00:32:37.340 Yeah, exactly, man. It feels kind of like fortuitous in a sense. You know, like everything that we. Like the. The groundwork that we were raised upon, all of a sudden is going to start paying dividends. Yerasimos 00:32:37.340 - 00:33:01.200 It feels like building your fat. You said something about, like, identity at the beginning of that. Building your identity and your values and principles into your AI is one of the most important first stages too, because, yeah, you could be. You could be whatever kind of person you are and then have the ability to create Whatever you want. And you can just create whatever you are where you're at. Joel 00:33:01.280 - 00:33:01.720 Yep. Yerasimos 00:33:01.720 - 00:34:07.550 Right. So if you don't know who you are, you might just waste a bunch of tokens and waste a bunch of energy building kind of nothing to go figure that out. And, and maybe there's an awkward sort of threshold or line here too. You can have the AI talk to you. Not to tell you who you are, but to, you know, ask. Good question. It'll ask you the same questions Carl Jung would ask you because it read every Carl Jung book. Right. So it can. And I, and I'm not a big fan. I don't think AI should be people's therapists or that kind of stuff, or that it's sentient and can tell you all these special things or whatever. But something as simple as an interview process to find out what you're interested in, what you're, what you like. I'm actually building an entire app that allows stay at home parents to be interviewed by a bot so that it can help build them an agentic side of business. Right. So that person may not know who they are entrepreneurially or even ever had an idea for a business, but by the end of their first day, they're going to be excited about a bunch of ideas and then this bot can literally help them make that into a real thing. Joel 00:34:08.070 - 00:34:08.870 Yeah, for sure. Yerasimos 00:34:09.270 - 00:34:18.710 Even the AI itself can account for the fact that some people don't even have the vision and can get you to that result even faster. So the identity piece is, is key. Joel 00:34:18.950 - 00:34:32.830 Yeah. And then Nikhil, I know you've got a lot to say on this topic as well. I mean, especially like feeding AI, like information about who you are astrologically or from a human design perspective can like really enhance the flow as well. So. Yeah. Anything going to share on that? Nikhil 00:34:32.830 - 00:34:33.270 Yeah. Joel 00:34:33.549 - 00:34:34.949 And also, Nikhil, if you don't mind. Yerasimos 00:34:34.949 - 00:34:36.349 Diving into actually what you're, what you're. Joel 00:34:36.349 - 00:34:38.109 Building at the moment, I think would be beneficial. Nikhil 00:34:38.429 - 00:34:48.429 Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'll start by sharing, you know, we, we use, and I use this language as well. Like, you know, we're building AI systems. Building, building. Which is true. Yerasimos 00:34:48.829 - 00:34:49.189 Right. Nikhil 00:34:49.189 - 00:37:43.020 And also I think it's important to also have like a feminine perspective of creation as well. And with our own AI systems or ecosystems being soiled, that we are nurturing and intending to. Right. And we're nurturing and growing these AI systems and whatever seeds that we put into the soil, well, that's going to bear the fruit. Right. So in the context of adding context about your human design, astrology, your values and your principles, that really is foundational because that's the kernel or the seed that the whole system orients around. And that's really, really foundational. And at the heart of the system that I've been. Well, it's already developed and continues to be refined and innovated. The system is called ace, right? And it's a sovereign operating system. And ACE is an acronym for authority, capacity and expansion. So authority is that identity. The system knows who you are, who you're being. Are you operating from truth, capacity? Can the system actually. Or is it holding you in the way that it's designed to? Are you holding yourself? Are you regulated and coherent? And then expansion, which is the fruits, the rhythms, the rituals, the results that you're getting in the life. So that's the principled architecture around the system and the actual platform itself lives. It's an app that's on your desktop that allows you to create and to build at the speed of thought because it's wired up to Claude code. But what I'm really solving for is the self awareness layer, so that you are cognizant of who you are and how you're navigating the somatic layer as well, which is really important because if we're spending hours and hours and hours behind a screen, if they're not regulated and if they're not self aware, where we end up, the quality of our work actually degrades. But just our health as well degrades. And underpinning all of that is a memory system that is persistent, that remembers not just who you are, not just what you're doing, all the micro detail, but an important factor for me is being able to establish and identify all of the patterns in your own creative process, to then inform your decision making better and to really call you out in a generative way so that you can stay aligned. Because as you know, with all these different ideas and all this capability, we can be all over the place as well. And we can also lose track of. I built an app two days ago. I kind of remember what it was maybe, or where it's sitting on my computer. Right. So all of these things are really important to solve for. And it's a process of learning how we use these tools and that's the main project right now and having a lot of fun with that. Joel 00:37:44.460 - 00:38:14.850 Yeah, it's epic, man. I've seen a couple demos of Nikhil System now and it's literally like what's crazy to me, like in what You've built, like anyone can now build, like, boutique tech to sit upon existing tech. It's like what you've built is an incredibly somatically intelligent version of, you know, the base technology that exists. And it's like any ideas that we have in how the tech itself can be enhanced, like, people can now go and just do as well. Nikhil 00:38:15.650 - 00:39:23.970 That's. That's the great opportunity. Look, like LLM or AI wrappers have been a thing, right, where big companies would use existing technology, wrap a nice interface around it, sell it at a markup. Great. But what's possible right now is using the core technology, like you've spoken to, but then connecting to, like, what our unique gifts and interests are and merging and infusing them into something that is uniquely you without having to spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to actually get the core thing working. Right. So it's such an exciting time for multidisciplinary creatives, neurodivergent, like, innovators. Because now there's this whole blue ocean possibility of creating new things that are genuinely useful. And you can test them really quickly so that if you have an idea before, what might have been a friction point for a creator is, oh, I've got so much on my plate already and I can't invest 5k or 10k into this. I'm just going to put this on the back burner now. You can run the experiment in a week, see if there's traction, boom, and then double down on it. And you can do these things in parallel right now. Yerasimos 00:39:24.400 - 00:39:24.600 Right. Nikhil 00:39:24.600 - 00:39:28.080 So it's a. It's. It's an incredible time, you know, to. Yerasimos 00:39:28.080 - 00:39:42.400 Be alive in that context where you actually have all these finished things ready to deploy just waiting for you to come back and review them. It's almost a new problem of, like, wow, too many good things are starting to exist. How does that all get managed? Nathaniel 00:39:42.400 - 00:39:48.880 Yeah, this is so. This is so inspiring just to hear, I gotta be honest, because out of the four of us, I'm like the. The biggest reaper. Joel 00:39:49.200 - 00:39:50.080 You're the unk. Nathaniel 00:39:50.160 - 00:39:51.520 I'm the unk. I'm the unk. Yerasimos 00:39:51.760 - 00:39:54.560 You keep growing the vegetables and petting your cats. Nathaniel 00:39:54.640 - 00:41:44.570 Yeah, exact. I mean, I love doing that. You know, it provides balance. But no, like, Nikhil did a presentation whenever it was a couple of months ago online, we went on it and then we got off of it and Joel Fudge turned into a cyborg, you know, and. And he went hardcore, full force. And I love it on some level because he's my business partner. So, like, he's just like, can go do his video games and do his thing, I do my thing. And then obviously we collaborate in the ways that we do and it's been pretty fucking epic and amazing. That said, I just recently got like hooked up into our little like, obsidian vault. And I'm on cloud, cloud cowork. And I've been doing my thing and creating some stuff, which has been really awesome. And one of the things I loved is that, like, you know, what Joel talked about before, like, being someone who's into human design, a lot of these esoteric systems, like, I spent a lot of time feeding it details on all of it, about me. Joel had his own little operating manual in there, but I went intense on mine and it was wild what it brought back. And then also talking about it in the context of what we do and who we are, like, it was so accurate in terms of Joel's strengths, my strengths, and how they work together, you know, with the work that we do. And like, I'm just at like the beginning phase and yet hearing you all talk, like, I'm even more inspired to like, you know, get the wheels turning. And at the same time, I do know myself. And it's like, I love being in my garden. I love being like with my cats. And so it's like that fine balance and like we've talked about earlier, for a lot of people it's like, hey, you utilize technology, you know, to support you, to do all these other things that have more time to grow your vegetables or do other things or spend time with your family. And so it's really exciting to see where things can, where things are going, but where they can go. Especially back to the beginning of the conversation. Like, yeah, people are going to do fucked up shit with it, but it's like we're not, you know, at least I don't think so. You know, I don't know about you, Nathaniel, but like, like, it's exciting. Yerasimos 00:41:45.370 - 00:42:05.050 Yeah. And you could actually. You're 20 minutes away from your cloud code building you an integration so that you can just send voice notes to your telegram that go into your cloud system so you can be gardening and get a little update about something that it's working on. And it'll be like, hey, what else would you want me to do with that? You can talk to it and then it can keep working for you. Nathaniel 00:42:05.610 - 00:42:20.920 Yeah, like, I think the sky's the limit. And even knowing how I work, like, in a certain way, I love responding to things. I like having ideas I love talking. Like, I'm really curious to see how this technology, this technology can support me in terms of what I do well, you know, so, you know, it's as. Yerasimos 00:42:20.920 - 00:44:39.120 A, as a generator, it is so epic because I'm constantly just getting asked yes or no questions, basically like, I'm going to build this or not? You ready to deploy this or not? You want to? So it's like I'm just going, huh, huh, huh, huh. And so something that I've noticed because as soon as I cross this threshold with the, the kind of latest stuff with cloud code, etc, my very first thought was, okay, I need to make sure everyone realizes what's going on so people can start using this now. Because it does feel kind of early in like this cool little sweet spot. And then I've ran three webinars. We did an event just on Saturday that was awesome here in Austin. Just like riding that momentum really fast and realizing there's definitely very distinct splits in the marketplace or in the collective as far as how people are relating to this, for one, or whether or not someone, it. Everyone can use it, but whether or not somebody should or really is able to out the box. Right. There's definitely a learning curve. And there's probably different brain types. I would wouldn't be surprised if I'm some type of neurodivergent. I've never really cared too much. I'm too busy just being weird with my brain and doing it. But I think that I keep getting the feedback. People like, oh, this is so cool for you because this is how your brain works. And then that same person's like, yeah, and I don't think I'll ever log in and try to go do any of that. I'd rather hire somebody to do that for me. So it's important for people listening as well. You may go try to get into this stuff and it may feel really overwhelming or just not really click in some particular way. I think over the next couple months there's just going to be better and better education and ways for people. And that's something I'm really prioritizing as well. Making it easy for someone to go from like first day using Claude to being like a power user so they can really run with it. But there's definitely a learning curve. Right. And, and I do think some, like your osmos, you might get into it and only use it right here because that's. That satiates, you know, some creative part of you. And then Joel, who might already have this more of Some sort of systemic type of brain is going to like take it to this other place because it's natural for him to navigate in that way. But there's definitely a space for anybody who wants to use it to kind of adapt it to whatever, you know, whatever kind of brain type they have. Nathaniel 00:44:39.280 - 00:45:06.050 You said something before that's interesting because it's like some people are going to want to use it, some people aren't. And like a lot of people have this fear like all these jobs will be taken away or you said that like some people will just pay someone else to do it. But like if you're into it, like you can 10x, 20x 100x your productivity, let's say you're an administrative, you know, and it's like okay, like a lot of people go, oh, they're gonna get rid of admins. But if you're an admin that knows this technology, you know, you could have like a hundred clients instead of four clients. Yerasimos 00:45:06.450 - 00:45:10.770 That's the first. So that's the first thing. Ace sounds so cool. Nikhil, by the way. Joel 00:45:10.770 - 00:45:12.930 And you gotta, you gotta see it, bro. You gotta see it. Yerasimos 00:45:12.930 - 00:47:05.580 Yeah, I think we're on some very similar threads because I, I, I. It sounds somewhat similar to some of the things I've built, but one of the things that I did build, once it was done I realized oh no, like this does this, the thing I just built does replace every virtual job there is as far like an assistant, a designer, a copywriter, a strategist, a funnel builder, a web developer, whatever it is. And it's kind of pre loaded ready to do any of those things. And I only built that because that's what I wanted for myself. So I can have this thing do all of those things for me. But right to your awesome most point, like people are going to lose their jobs because they will be replaced by these things that can do it. But any of those people, one, most people should don't want jobs in the first place. They want to do their own thing. So it's probably a blessing for a lot of people. It's going to be rough for a lot of people because they don't know who they are without their job. But people who start to use these things will not only be able to keep their job, they're going to make more money, they're going to have more things to do. And all of these, the people who are going to immediately start to get, you know, replay out replaced by AI. All these virtual things need to start using AI sooner and Then they just get to do what they do, even like better. That was the big shift for me. I used to charge a bunch of money and take six to 12 months to build a whole funnel website ecosystem. The branding, the copywriting, getting their voice, getting their soul to translate into all this stuff that they're building. And now I can just have fun connecting with someone, record that conversation, plug it into Claude, and the same 12 month project exists the same day. Yeah. So people who are building those things need to realize that exponential kind of shift because it's actually just going to be better. Better for everybody to create more. Joel 00:47:05.820 - 00:48:26.760 My, my general, my general perspective on this topic is. And like again, it's somewhat harsh, but anything that can be made redundant should be made redundant because what it does, it opens up space for more niche and unique areas of human creativity that are very much unexplored at the moment because we don't have the time to actually go there. Like for example, like even just on an organizational level, if you just implement AI to handle and reorganize really efficiently the baseline of whatever you're doing, your business, etc and all that's handled, how much more space, time and energy is just immediately created for you to actually do the unique creative work that humans, you know, a specialized four ultimately. And yeah, it's epic. It's, it's epic for sure. But one thing I do want to raise in this, you know, is this, this co, I guess topic of like AI slop, you know, all, all over the place. Because intention, I think is more necessary than ever in terms of especially what we put out into the public and into the world when we now drain, drowning in like millions of creators just you know, trying to overflow and like pummel out as much content as possible without much thought and without like spending. Nathaniel 00:48:26.760 - 00:49:17.160 Time with it and like editing it like, or maybe not having enough time with the language model to understand like its patterns. Like, I think one of my skills is like, I've always been good with like punctuation and syntax and spelling and like remembering things and observation. And so like yes, well, I made fun of myself before. I have been engaging with chat GBT for a while now, so I kind of understand how it comes across. And like I'm just seeing people that just like, it's just like cut and paste and it's like they're not seeing this. And like I get like, you know, three lines into their post and I'm like, you, you, you like this is, this is slop. Like what are you doing? You know, so it's like I'm sure everyone has to get to hopefully get to a certain point, but it seems like some people are just like, they just, they're not aware of it and it's just like this is easy and I'm just putting things out there. So that's the issue that I have with it. So yeah, feel free to share your thoughts. Yerasimos 00:49:17.400 - 00:50:48.120 Quick fix for everyone listening. Tell your AI to create an anti slop rule. Yeah, and create an MD file. Everyone should be so excited about MD files these days. Go make your own anti AI slop. Have it, do some research, give it your own input and feedback. And that's the easiest first step is just to actually know what you don't want it to do and make sure it knows that as well. But then produce some stuff. So my system makes me three pieces of content every day that I can then just talk back to it and give feedback on the content and then it educates itself based on my feedback and try some more. So like building a living feedback system of that refinement process before you start making things public. I think is, is definitely helpful and super important. And I also think of the, just the metaphor of like when distortion was invented for guitarists. All of a sudden everyone who had a guitar or an electric guitar can now like have it do this kind of crazy sounding thing probably for the first 10, 20, 30 years. And even to this day there's absolutely unlistenable distorted guitar music that some people make because they're just doing their thing and not thinking about the details. And oh, I just put this thing out there. So I think it's part of the, the fact that everyone has this new tool and we're going to continue to clean up along the way. But again it takes people calling it out and then having solutions because everyone can be upset about the slop. But I don't see a lot of people teaching people how to make sure your AI. Joel 00:50:48.600 - 00:50:50.440 That's true, that's true. Nikhil 00:50:50.440 - 00:50:50.880 Yeah. Joel 00:50:50.880 - 00:51:21.170 One other thing I was going to add to what I was sharing before, it's like the anti technological stance to me is like very like communistic in a sense as well. It's like I, I think about construction like once upon a time we were digging with our hands, then we were digging with shovels, then we were digging with machines. It's like, oh, do you just revert back to the shovels because like you're worried about the machine like taking the job or like doing something in a different way and having to go through a learning curve, you know. So yeah, I just want to throw that piece in there as well. Nikhil 00:51:24.470 - 00:52:01.550 I think something to consider as well as AI systems get better and better. Also not to totally abandon the analog way of creation as well. I think there's a real magic in putting pen to paper and still kind of honing that craft. And then as Nathaniel was speaking to your AI systems, being able to not just identify your unique preferences, to have guardrails there, so things that end up just being sloppy, but also that it's learning for, for you, but also not to not maybe not fully replace your whole creativity, but to serve as like a creative sparring partner. Yerasimos 00:52:01.710 - 00:52:02.030 Right. Nikhil 00:52:02.030 - 00:52:41.310 And I think that's a good, a good mental model. Like the tool is like a scaffolding for my own creativity, for my own leadership, for my own decision making. And yes, it's brilliant that now we don't, we can never run out of ideas anymore because we get ideas just fed to us and our relationship with the AI gets to be something that is, it's intentional versus just getting lazy and dependent. And that is. And like we just been discussing being lazy and dependent. That's existed since, you know, potentially the dawn of time, right. So once again, it's up to the individual how intentional that we're going to be as we're kind of navigating these waters. Nathaniel 00:52:41.640 - 00:52:41.760 Right? Nikhil 00:52:41.760 - 00:54:13.550 But Joel, you're speaking to something that is actually, I think it's bigger than just the AI content stuff that's out there in the world and we see a lot of that. There's a bigger issue as well, because these big models, they're being trained on users data, right? Over and over and over and over again. And initially the majority of the data was somewhat, just maybe illegally or unethically scraped from the Internet to build a baseline of these models. Now imagine it's been three years since ChatGPT's come out. Imagine another two years where more and more people are using AI each day and the majority of these people aren't actually using their own creativity, they're just saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, without nurturing and creating the system. The data that these models are trained on is degrading, right? So context degradation at large is going to be an issue. So what does that mean? It means there's going to be a lot of capable technology out there without much uniqueness. But what that means is the more that we get to tap into our uniqueness and creativity, that's going to show up, going to cut through all of the noise because we have this original thought. So there's this bigger picture thing that a lot of people aren't thinking about. These models that are actually, they're going to get smarter and smarter, but more stupid and generic because they're trained on a loop of slop. So factoring that into the equation as well is important in the conversation, which. Joel 00:54:13.550 - 00:54:28.270 I guess highlights even more so the importance of really having your AI built on your own niche context so it's not just plugged into the generic bullshit that's out there. Yerasimos 00:54:29.230 - 00:55:54.300 Skill sharing too, you know, like I, I already have a whole little community of guys where it's like once, once one of our systems figured out some awesome thing we can share. So we're kind of, I don't need to wait for Claude or GPT to build some new widget or some new connector or whatever. You know, people who are having fun and building this stuff out need to be collaborating and helping each other build this kind of front line of holding on to that, that visionary piece that has this more integrative approach with all of this and the, the idea of what people are able to build with this when your focus isn't just all right, what's the app I can build to go make some money? Or how do I go exploit what. All these things the AI can do and people really thinking about the ways that they want to care for people and care for the world and make more art and do these things that really matter that are so much deeper. I think it's one of the most unique ways to use AI right now. Right. Because again, the AI is trained on the slop. It's trained on this mainstream kind of googling behavior or some form of just like making money. And so that alone just limits it so much. And someone who's just trying to focus on make money isn't going to go build some cool second brain thing that helps them understand themselves better, etc. There's, there's just infinite room for. Joel 00:55:54.940 - 00:56:30.730 Yeah, I don't think the importance for low time preference has changed at all. You know, I think like delaying instantaneous gratification, long term planning, investing, long term ideation creation is in fact it's like even more important now because I feel like the seeds and the fruits of systems and ecosystems that you build over time is a lot more, not only valuable but also more powerful and impactful than anything that you're going to get. Like in the, you know, a week span hit of oh, let me create this and put this out in the world. And I'll get this passive income machine just operating. You know,. Nathaniel 00:56:32.570 - 00:56:52.910 I just love that the audio to tech stuff has evolved over the last however many years because like, I feel like I was one of the first people that was leaving like audio text messages like, you know, when Apple came out with it or whenever that was. And so I love to talk and I can't type well that. Well, I can't type that quickly. So it's been definitely a game changer for me utilizing that. Yerasimos 00:56:53.390 - 00:56:54.990 You use Whisper Flow for that? Nathaniel 00:56:55.150 - 00:57:05.950 Yeah, I just started recently using it, but I feel like it, it makes more mistakes than when I was just talking into like chatgpt audio. Like normally. Like I feel like when I would do that, like there weren't as many errors, but. Yerasimos 00:57:06.270 - 00:57:07.510 Interesting. Yeah. Nathaniel 00:57:07.510 - 00:57:13.150 I don't know, maybe I need to talk more articulately or maybe I just need to whisper instead of talking so fucking loud. Nikhil 00:57:14.670 - 00:57:41.240 You can also just message Joel to build out your own custom voice to text tool that he could probably do it in one hour because I use a tool that I've paid $25 for life and it's exactly the same as Whisper Flow and then you can connect it to different models as well, to more capable models. Right. So, and, but really, like I'm just going to be building out my own version of it because if we can right now. Right. So just. Nathaniel 00:57:41.240 - 00:57:47.400 Hey, Joel. Joel, can you build me out a custom voice to text model, please? That works. Nikhil 00:57:47.480 - 00:57:47.960 Thanks. Yerasimos 00:57:48.120 - 00:58:11.150 This is a very perfect example of the paradigm shift. A couple weeks ago my partner was like, oh, I just saw this article that said the app store might not let people publish vibe coded apps. Right. Like the Apple itunes store or whatever. And my very first thought was, oh, well then someone will just build their own app store. Yeah, like, oh, like it actually doesn't matter. Joel 00:58:11.550 - 00:58:13.630 Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yerasimos 00:58:13.710 - 00:58:27.550 I'm almost done building my own Kajabi school replacement because I love both of those platforms. They're very helpful and they both give me about 85% of what I actually want and don't have the API stuff that I want going on. So I just build my own. Joel 00:58:28.200 - 00:58:40.840 Yeah, I did something similar. We, we launched our free self esteem mini course a couple weeks ago and we had mad momentum. And then the hosting course hosting platform which we used experienced like four or five hours of downtime and it just pissed me the off. Yerasimos 00:58:41.080 - 00:58:41.440 Yeah. Joel 00:58:41.440 - 00:58:58.400 And I was like, I'm never, I'm never gonna experience this again. I'm building my own. So when the self esteem reset is now self hosted on my own uniquely designed, you know, system. And it's so much, to me, it's much more beautiful, so much more coherent, so much more, you know, such a better customer experience. And it happens in like a week's time. Yerasimos 00:58:58.800 - 00:58:59.360 Yeah. Joel 00:58:59.600 - 00:59:12.400 Whereas I feel like some of these companies that have existed, like the technology has taken them so long to build upon, now all of a sudden anyone can just come in and be like, ah, I like that feature, I like that feature, I like that feature. Here's an amalgamation of all the features that I like. Yerasimos 00:59:13.200 - 00:59:23.910 And even having a feedback loop where you get feedback from the users and then the system aggregates all that and then says, hey, it seems like basically everybody wants this to happen. Just let me know and I'll build it right now. Joel 00:59:24.950 - 00:59:36.630 Yeah, it's wild. It's wild. What do you guys think is, I guess, the function of the timing of these advancements of technology in light of the spiritual evolution of humanity? Nikhil 00:59:39.110 - 01:02:09.140 That's a really great question. So I'll look at artificial intelligence. Kind of like it's like Prometheus, right? Like this fire has kind of come down and be given to us, this fire of knowledge. And I don't see technology as this isolated thing. I mean, even the word technology, right? Like even etymologically speaking, it's. It's the application of craft, right? That's what it is. It's not like one specific thing. It's how we're using the word and our skills in a craftful way. And even like artificial. It's funny because I like playing with words and phonetics and like etymology as well. Like in artificial, there's the word art in it art, right? And official, the etymological root is about service and duty. So I see it as like it's our duty to create more art through leveraging our intelligence. So that's my reframe with respect to it. And because in this modern world of these times that we're in right now, technology and the digital infrastructures, part of the through line of our experience together, it just feels like it's the opportune moment that we get to. Not to come to a singularity per se, but we stop creating division and we recognize what tools are at hand, what wisdom that we're able to kind of draw from and apply it to malleable shape what is available to us. Because technology and innovation is never a one and done. It's not like, oh, here's the model, here's the framework, just fit into it. That's Very rigid and prescriptive and that's part of an agenda. But ultimately it's an open, it's an open world. Right. And Nathaniel was talking to skill sharing and like an open sourced approach. That's the opportunity right now. How we get to leverage what exists, to leverage our own wisdom and experience and build together not from a space of competition, but from a recognition of the creative mind that there is no competition. And how we can guide humanity forward in this age of Aquarius towards the more benevolent future through making more benevolent choices now and not being codependent on the machine, but learning how to work with the machine as a creative ally and a scaffolding so that we get to be more capable, more effective to create more space and to lead from that place versus just, you know, hiding, hiding in fear from it. That's my take. Nathaniel 01:02:09.300 - 01:02:09.700 Also. Yerasimos 01:02:13.940 - 01:04:08.360 Spiritually, it feels like humanity on this earth, there's some theme around learning around integration around shadow work, around like discovering yourself, accepting these parts of yourself, connecting all these different dots and everything. To me, integration means wholeness. Right? Everything has to be on the table. That includes everything. That's the whole point. So we need systems externally and internally that can account for that, that can actually hold that and work with that AI. And you said something about timing in your question, Joel. The timing is absolutely perfect, just like every other moment. And it's not too hard to see how if you wanted to speed up the shadow work process of a planet or a collective, then you would allow the technology to get to a place where thoughts can become things that much faster and someone can have themselves reflected to themselves through how they create. Like if you're given I, you know, you guys know, I do all this lucid dreaming work and just that same sort of work of when you can leave your body and be in this other state where it's thought responsive. All of a sudden there's a bunch of responsibility like what do you do when anything can happen based on however you're thinking? So this AI stage we've just stepped into is probably the closest we've gotten to that. Where who you are and how you're emanating into reality can create. It can actually create something and have a feedback loop into that system faster than ever before. So accelerating this learning process, this integration process. Yeah, that's. And then the fact that this accelerates all the worst stuff on the planet too is like par for that same course. So that's where my head's at, is how do we, you know, stay at the, the head of that spear and try to make this as integrative as possible for everybody. Joel 01:04:08.680 - 01:04:09.520 I love it, man. Yerasimos 01:04:09.520 - 01:04:10.080 Well said. Joel 01:04:10.080 - 01:04:25.960 Well, I mean, you know, we all contain with it within us these like learning mechanisms which are built upon feedback and primarily like negative feedback. Like you do a thing and you refine, you iterate and you do it again better. So if we're creating faster, obviously we're learning and evolving faster as well. Yerasimos 01:04:26.520 - 01:04:27.640 Yeah, yeah. Joel 01:04:28.440 - 01:04:50.780 I want both of you guys to kind of project into the future a little bit here. What does a psycho, spiritually mature human beings relationship with technology look like in 2030 in a concrete sense? What do you think your life is going to look like in 2030 or your day to day? Whoever wants to go first? Nikhil 01:04:51.660 - 01:06:51.510 Yeah, I'll jump in. And another great question. So by 2030, which is not that, not that far away, we will know nothing and we'll be happy. No, we'll be stewarding our own factory. Automated bug factory. No, that's, that was a shitty distorted timeline for me personally. So. And this is something I'm building right now actually with our property here. And we've got a decent amount of space. We've got an intelligent home and a local AI system that's running purely off, you know, of solar power. We've already got a, well, everything like that. And we've got an intelligent system, a fully sovereign localized base that is sentient to its own, you know, to its own degree. And that I'm just, you know, in the garden, right, growing, growing veggies, you know, doing my thing, maybe going on a trip, you know, to come visit you guys next week. And my systems have been so finely attuned that what I mean by that is the infrastructure of my projects, all of my ecosystems, it's all been dialed in over the course of these years so that I'm just getting either a little notification or speakers speaking to me saying, hey, this needs attention right now or don't forget about this. And I'm like, cool, either run it or don't run it and that's it. So my interaction with technology itself is really going to be minimal. You know, maybe five minutes to half an hour a day if I feel like I'm, I want to go behind the screen. But even by then I'm just going to be, I'll go into my like my idea hub and I'll just be going into a meditative state, bringing transmissions through. And all of my agentic system redistributes that exactly where it needs to go. Whether that's a business idea or content, and that's it. So I'm using this leverage and this momentum right now so that a couple of years from now, I don't have to be behind a screen again unless I want to. Nathaniel 01:06:51.750 - 01:06:52.150 Right. Nikhil 01:06:52.630 - 01:07:22.420 That's the goal. And that everything is happening in this almost. This almost invisible layer that's scaffolded around my life. And when I'm working with interfaces, they're just so beautiful. They're biomimetic. They're almost. They're representative of nature, and they're not intruding into my life with boxes. It just feels like it's a beautiful dance with technology. And that's it. That's the goal. With incredible leverage across the world for impact and mission. Joel 01:07:22.900 - 01:07:24.940 Beautiful vision, man. I love it. Nathaniel. Yerasimos 01:07:24.940 - 01:07:37.700 It's like an interface between your mental body, your astral body, where you can just make a few noises and then it gets received and then goes into the physical world in this other way where all I. I love hearing you describe that. Nathaniel 01:07:38.740 - 01:07:39.300 I'm also. Yerasimos 01:07:39.300 - 01:07:44.580 I'm also like, gonna be balling in 2030. That's what I. Good time. Nathaniel 01:07:44.580 - 01:08:15.390 Well, I'm curious because what you said too, gets. Gets me thinking because I. I've kind of lived in this space between like. Like, I don't want, like, some crazy smart home and tech and all this extra stuff. And yet at the same time, I'm like. As you were talking, I'm thinking of like, all my irrigation systems. Like, what's the tech going to be involved with irrigation? And like, you know, what new irrigation systems can I put in that it's connected? And, and like, I don't know. I've just started thinking even in terms around the house and like, if you. If you manage a property and a massive garden, like, things that can be done. Yeah. I don't know. Yerasimos 01:08:15.390 - 01:08:20.899 So automated sprinklers for all these Cali fires. That was my first thought. Right. Nathaniel 01:08:20.899 - 01:08:21.339 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:08:21.499 - 01:08:28.459 Hello. Hello, sir. We just checked the. The news and it's getting close. Do you want me to turn the sprinklers on? Well, we're, We're. We're. Nathaniel 01:08:28.459 - 01:08:45.110 We've been in the early stages of getting kind of like a bespoke system done by this guy who's like a science teacher who like, went viral after he builds these little pool pumps, but then connects them to things. But then obviously what you said, now I'm like, well, how can that even be upgraded on a whole other level, you know? Nikhil 01:08:45.110 - 01:09:44.690 So, Yashima, here's the thing, right? Exactly to that Point I'll be able to have sensors on not just like the different kind of sprinklers, the whole irrigation system, the rainwater harvesting system, solar power, gas, how electricity is being used that then connected to any other variables around like you know, finances, business, astrology, seasonal things so that there's all these different parameters and data points that is running on a local system. Right. Meaning that it's not connected to anything outside of my own home. Right. So and then based on that, not just am I going to create, have beautiful readouts to guide my process, but there's a natural innovation cycle around. Hey, based on this pattern, this, this storm that's happening over here, based on how much water is in rain harvesting tank, and based on mercury being in the, you know, in the eighth house or conjuncting Venus potentially, you want to, you want to, you want, you want to grow some radishes? I don't know. Joel 01:09:44.690 - 01:09:44.970 Right? Yerasimos 01:09:44.970 - 01:09:47.650 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nikhil 01:09:47.730 - 01:09:48.290 Dude, it's. Yerasimos 01:09:48.290 - 01:09:50.370 So that's the, that I get real. Nathaniel 01:09:50.370 - 01:09:53.410 Excited about and I'm like, oh, how does that, like, how does that work? Yerasimos 01:09:53.890 - 01:09:56.770 Like a little Rudolph Steiner agent who's giving you your bio. Nikhil 01:09:56.770 - 01:09:57.250 Exactly. Yerasimos 01:09:57.330 - 01:09:58.210 Farming tips. Nikhil 01:09:58.290 - 01:10:00.130 Exactly. Exactly. Joel 01:10:00.210 - 01:10:00.690 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:10:01.090 - 01:10:26.100 That just was funny that you brought it there. My 2030 vision. And I've been saying this, I've been thinking about this a lot. I would love for AI to run my whole permaculture system. Give it the soil sample results, like everything. It knows exactly what level of minerals we need to put of this and that. It'll distribute that for me. And I, I'd be willing to have a couple robots on the heavy lifting. Right? Nathaniel 01:10:26.100 - 01:10:27.820 Dude, that, that's. Yes, I was. Yerasimos 01:10:28.620 - 01:10:38.020 That's it. That's my cap. I don't need to plug into it. I'm not trying to live forever through this. Yeah, I don't even think that we already live forever. That's, that's, that's covered. Nikhil 01:10:38.340 - 01:10:38.820 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:10:39.540 - 01:10:59.930 But yeah, that's the cap. I don't need a neural link. I don't want to plug in. I don't any of that kind of stuff. But yeah, have some robots do the heavy lifting so that I can grow too much food so that I can distribute it to people who need it and that's about it. And then I busy playing music and hosting events and doing research and science and all these fun things. Nathaniel 01:10:59.930 - 01:11:32.360 Dude, I love that you said that because just the other day Sophie and I were outside and then my homie Eric, who's like a gardening wizard and he's been helping us do some projects here. And I literally said to him, I was like, man, I just love to have like a couple robots, you know, because we did like a massive amendment application and like mixing everything up. So some of that stuff, like, takes like, I don't mind it, but it takes time. Like, I was. I'm hand broadcasting like 500 pounds of material, you know, like, that takes like several hours, you know, and it's just like. And having a robot that does that, you know, for that kind of stuff, then you get to focus on the things that you really ultimately want to focus on. Yerasimos 01:11:32.360 - 01:11:48.360 Right? And it doesn't even have to be like a humanoid. Like, even for the mixing, you just have like a really cool machine that your AI specked out for you, right, and helped write those hardware specs so you can build this perfectly customized thing to fit in the exact spot you need it on the side of the shed. Whatever, dude. Nikhil 01:11:49.800 - 01:11:50.520 I love this. Yerasimos 01:11:50.840 - 01:11:51.440 I love this. Joel 01:11:51.440 - 01:12:27.120 But again, it speaks to this idea of like, AI as like a magnifier or an amplifier. Like with anything. Like the ideas that you feed something, whether they're life giving, spiritually giving, whatever it might be, that's. You're going to get more of that. If the ideas are built on vagueness and incoherence and uncertainty and scarcity and all the. You're going to get more of that. You know, it's like the vision that you create is based on the soil that's present within you as your own being in terms of a self and in terms of where you're headed and in terms of the programming that you're giving your own mechanism, that's the only programming you can give any other machine. Yerasimos 01:12:27.120 - 01:12:29.880 Ultimately, I'm just not. Nathaniel 01:12:29.880 - 01:13:14.060 I'm just not a pessimist. Like, I just, I just never really. I mean, I feel like there's maybe, like, it's not that I'm like sticking my head in the sand and completely bypassing, but, like, for whatever reason, I wasn't built that way. I didn't evolve that way. I'm just not a pessimist. Like, I. I have a core belief that I expect the dopest shit to happen to me in my life and the people that I love and care about. That's just what I expect. And so I feel like that's part of why my life has evolved into what it is. It's not perfect, obviously. Like, I have my stuff, but, like, they're just holding that belief and that vision, like, it's just going to. Like Joel said, it's going to amplify it. And so if you are black, doom and gloom, if you are black, if you think technology is going to take over the world, if you think we're all going to become fucking homeless and, and, you know, subject to tyranny, like what, what's going to come from that? What fruit comes from that? Joel 01:13:14.140 - 01:13:20.330 Yeah, you, you are the ultimate technology, first and foremost. Like, we can never forget that fact. Yeah, indeed. Yerasimos 01:13:20.810 - 01:13:47.540 And as someone whose kind of job it is to be aware of all the worst things happening in the world, those are all real things. And the fact that I can now do something about those things, arguably a hundred thousand times faster, more thoroughly, with more nuance and more integrity to the entire setup, puts me in the best position possible now to live on this planet and try to deal with all these things that are happening. Nathaniel 01:13:47.780 - 01:13:48.100 Right. Yerasimos 01:13:48.100 - 01:13:52.180 So it makes me even more. I've never been pessimistic and it makes me even more optimistic. Nikhil 01:13:52.900 - 01:13:56.020 Yeah, I want to weave one, one, one little thread here. Joel 01:13:56.020 - 01:13:56.300 Right. Nikhil 01:13:56.300 - 01:15:13.410 And Joel, what you said around. We are the ultimate technology and any technology in this physical dimension, it's a, a composite and actually quite a crude composite of our human system and our human consciousness. But here's the thing. If you're, you know, training Claude Code or ChatGPT and all the context is all really shitty, fragmented kind of context, well, that's the output. It's the same thing with our own psyche, right? What is inside of us, what programs are running, what belief, what old files are we holding that simply don't serve anymore? So if we're able to do that internal audit, optimize our own system, then as a byproduct, life is going to reflect that back to us. And then if you've got this amplification, this amplifying substrate, which is AI, that's just going to take it to the 10th degree. So it's interesting thinking, even like prompting, you're putting something into the AI, it creates an output. What are your thoughts that you're running in your mind right now? Because every single thought is going to result in something emerging into the reality. So even like looking at AI, this is like a substrate and a composite of human consciousness and it's reflecting me. How am I running my life, how am I tending to my own inner world? And then based on that, well, you're going to get the results and the fruits. Joel 01:15:15.650 - 01:15:24.130 Absolutely, man. That was a great plug for Rise above the Herd, by the way, guys. Deprogram from anti life ideas and feed with yourself with life giving. Philosophies, so you can leverage AI better in 2030. Yerasimos 01:15:24.130 - 01:15:24.890 Thanks, Nikhil. Nikhil 01:15:24.890 - 01:15:25.330 Boom. Nathaniel 01:15:25.570 - 01:15:28.450 What a time to be alive. You know what I mean? Yerasimos 01:15:28.450 - 01:15:29.250 What a time. Nathaniel 01:15:29.490 - 01:15:44.800 I just feel so blessed and so jazzed to be alive during this time, to be having this conversation with you men, to call you men, my friends, like, and to hear, like, what you're innovating and what you're creating, like, I just feel like. I feel like I hit the jackpot. Joel 01:15:45.280 - 01:16:05.090 Yeah, totally, bro. Totally, man. Dude, there was, there was a moment like a month ago when I realized what became possible a little, little bit later to the party then you guys. And I remember, like, I completely rebuilt the Rise above the Herd website better than any vision I could have had to hire anyone else to do it. And I sat there and I was like, this is the best day of my life. Yerasimos 01:16:11.170 - 01:16:12.610 I love my kids. Dopamine. Joel 01:16:12.690 - 01:16:14.050 I love my kids. I love my life. Nikhil 01:16:14.130 - 01:16:14.690 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:16:14.850 - 01:16:28.140 Because things exist. You. All the screen time everyone's been rotting their brains with. Guess what? When you're coding, there's going to be some screen time at first, but something exists when you're done. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's huge. Exactly. Joel 01:16:28.140 - 01:16:42.020 And the reason that it felt like the best day of my life was, was because of the magnification and the ease of the flow that now existed between all these ideas that I've always had and my ability to bring them into reality. Nathaniel 01:16:42.100 - 01:16:42.500 Right. Joel 01:16:42.580 - 01:17:16.060 The reduction in the friction, in the tension in the finance required, in the time required. Because if you're someone who is entrepreneurial minded and you have ideas and you get lit the fuck up by creating, like, that is just like on steroids now in terms of, like, what? Every single day I have visions and I can sit and I can just create with, like, less friction and more flow and I can continually refine and build and make things better and make things more enhanced. Like, that's the most exciting thing for any real creator. Nikhil 01:17:17.340 - 01:17:21.370 Collapsing time. You're collapsing time. Literally collapsing time. Boom. So that. Joel 01:17:21.690 - 01:17:34.090 Yeah, okay, if someone's hearing to this conversation, hearing this conversation and like, they're hearing the excitement, they're hearing the buzz, they're feeling overwhelmed and they haven't really crossed. Crossed this threshold yet,. Nikhil 01:17:36.010 - 01:17:36.769 Where do they. Joel 01:17:36.769 - 01:17:43.610 Actually begin to start wielding this technology? Like, where. Where would you recommend someone to begin? Like, baby steps. Yerasimos 01:17:46.740 - 01:19:34.340 I mean, I have. I mean, I built a. I have a thing for. That's what my whole webinar is. I don't need to plug that. But there's definitely a lot of people working on you Know, kind of getting started with Claude and you know, that's, that's my lane, I think. But even before that, someone should go on a walk and record a voice memo to themselves and just start thinking about like dreaming your biggest dream. Like, man, these guys are talking all this, like, what do I want? I want a permaculture property. I want to build a website. And let yourself have that version of the conversation with yourself, which is fun and exciting and creative. Imagine there's no rules. What do I really want? Or what have I been trying to create that I really want, right? And let yourself dream that and then have the other conversation with yourself, which is how overwhelmed am I by this stuff? How tech savvy do I feel? Do. Am I going to need help with this? And put on your kind of scuba gear before you dive in. Don't half ass trying to go download Claude code and start trying co working stuff. Like, you need to treat this like, you know, a new class you've just started for your school or whatever. Something that is going to deserve its own container and it's time and attention. Treat it like a skill that you're going to need to be building. And then essentially the. One of the very first things that I learned to do because once you start building all these files in these folders is you want some way to see them. So building some sort of command center or a dashboard to assist your AI system is really valuable, especially for beginners, so that you can kind of visualize the things that you're working with. And you can go to nathanielsolace.com forward/AI and then I have a freebie on there and a whole class and other stuff you can check out. But it's kind of the, for the beginners type of people in that position. Joel 01:19:34.900 - 01:19:35.620 Awesome, man. Nikhil 01:19:36.250 - 01:20:37.370 Yeah, yeah, I'll add to that as well. So all that and also just to have like a beginner's mind and to be curious, right? Because the more that you're able to just like experiment and just like, you know, watch some videos, try new things out, the best way to learn is getting your hands in the clay and because you'll have that, wow, that magic moment, right? I don't know. You know, Joel, your magic moment, it was kind of like progressive and. And then it was like, boom, right? That wouldn't have happened if you weren't willing to just roll up your sleeves and play around and you can watch as many videos or listen to podcasts or anything, which is all useful, but just play around, like build Something say like, I've got an idea for a website. How can I build this out, make a few mistakes. But when you can see how the entire paradigm around creativity has shifted and how if you're just able to articulate yourself, speak English and have an idea, those are the prerequisites. Yerasimos 01:20:37.450 - 01:20:37.770 Right. Nikhil 01:20:37.770 - 01:20:39.530 And, and with that, anything is possible. Joel 01:20:40.410 - 01:21:00.250 Exactly, exactly. Man, I, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. It's like just get on and like ask the thing. It's like this is what I'm thinking. Where do you recommend I start? Like let it know the, you know, the level of experience that you're coming from. But like it's the perfect sounding board in that sense as well to get started. And like we're talking about human design. Yerasimos 01:21:00.970 - 01:21:15.810 When you do that, you don't, don't waste your opus on some of these initial first questions or that I see a lot of people getting on the, the 20amonth plan and then they start asking all these questions and then opus like, well I. You're all used up. So. Joel 01:21:15.810 - 01:21:16.530 Ah, interesting. Yerasimos 01:21:16.530 - 01:21:17.050 Interesting. Joel 01:21:17.770 - 01:21:18.890 Yeah, interesting. Yerasimos 01:21:18.890 - 01:21:19.170 That's. Joel 01:21:19.170 - 01:21:21.050 That's how you're supposed to use $100 writing. Nikhil 01:21:21.290 - 01:21:21.610 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:21:21.610 - 01:21:33.810 If you're just chatting with. Whether it's CLAUDE or code, whatever, you're just chatting with it and learning and experimenting. Don't use the, the highest caliber model because it's going to put in a bunch of extra effort. It doesn't need to and kind of waste your. Joel 01:21:33.810 - 01:21:40.850 Right. I went, I went, I went, I went two days, then maxed the F out firstly. But yeah, I get you, I get you. Nikhil 01:21:40.930 - 01:21:41.770 What are the levels? Nathaniel 01:21:41.770 - 01:21:42.930 20, 100 And 200. Joel 01:21:42.930 - 01:21:45.730 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yerasimos 01:21:45.730 - 01:21:56.540 I've been on, I've been on the 200amonth. I just paid for my second month of the 200amonth thing and it is probably accelerated 10 years worth of work for me just in that first month. Nikhil 01:21:56.540 - 01:23:03.990 Yeah, same. It's been my second month of max $200 essentially. So Yastoma on the $20 a month one. It's the basic CLAUDE plan that gives you access to CLAUDE code as well. And for a, for a beginner user, it's more than enough actually to kind of just get you in your day to day to start building, to start reflecting. I found that, you know, a bunch of the people moving through the ace, the ACE cohort, specifically ones that are building like two to three weeks in, they hit the limit and upgrade to the $100 a month max plan because you just have a lot more capability in how much Tokens you get so you can build a whole lot more. You don't run up against the limits. Claude is. They're very stingy with their token limits compared to ChatGPT. You actually get way more bang for buck with ChatGPT models. And then if you're like Nathaniel or myself and like Joel as well, and you're like, okay, how much can I build in one day? Then the 200amonth plan, it's so 20amonth. The 100amonth is five times more, more tokens, and then the 200amonth is 20 times more. So it's like an exponential curve up. Nathaniel 01:23:04.710 - 01:23:09.510 And then, yeah, I lasted on the 20 in like one day, but maybe 100. Joel 01:23:09.830 - 01:23:11.550 Maybe you were on what Nathaniel say. Nikhil 01:23:11.550 - 01:23:12.150 Maybe you were. Joel 01:23:12.470 - 01:23:13.670 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nikhil 01:23:13.910 - 01:23:38.310 And one thing to also consider, just a little practical thing. Between 5am Pacific and 11am Pacific, Claude has created restrictions. So your token usage is like five times as much. That's expensive if you're using CLAUDE code in general, between 5 and 11 Pacific. Right. And that's a way to mitigate their rapid growth. That might change in the future. So consider that as well, because you're going to burn through tokens. Joel 01:23:39.270 - 01:23:41.640 Have you guys ever, like, hit a limit on the $20? I have. Yerasimos 01:23:43.630 - 01:23:44.270 Say that again. Joel 01:23:44.270 - 01:23:49.630 Have you ever hit a limit on the 200 plan? I haven't yet. Like, I haven't. I haven't been able to exhaust it. Yerasimos 01:23:50.990 - 01:24:31.480 I think I did once, but on purpose, because it's like, I want to know how, how maxed out. So I also use VS code instead of the desktop app, which is a huge difference. The desktop app for Claude doubles up disk space to basically put your terminal inside the desktop app. And if you use something like VS code, you're just talking right to your terminal. So it saves a lot of space. It's a lot smoother, holds more contacts, more memory. And then one of the things I figured out early on, Nikhil talked about this as well, but like your memory structure in ways so that you're just not wasting tokens for obvious things like looking at a file or a folder. Nathaniel 01:24:31.480 - 01:24:31.800 Right. Yerasimos 01:24:31.800 - 01:25:21.300 A basic Claude setup without any, you know, strategy to the setup. When you say, hey, let's go work on a PDF for the, you know, for the next course we're doing next week, it's gonna. It'll start by going, okay, well, how about I Google what is a PDF and then what's the course? And we'll kind of. We'll go as wide as possible, or let me look through all of your files and folders to go find an answer to that. Instead of building a system where if you said PDF or you mentioned a course name, it already knows just to go to that course course folder and doesn't waste all these tokens looking everywhere to finally get there. So people can also kind of burn through their plan if you start using your system in a way and don't build up the proper naming conventions and how your files and your folders are structured. Right? Because you'll just have this kind of wasteful system that's trying to get these jobs done for you. Does that make sense? Joel 01:25:21.460 - 01:25:22.340 It makes sense. Yerasimos 01:25:22.420 - 01:25:22.900 Yeah. Nikhil 01:25:23.300 - 01:26:26.860 The thing that, the thing that I'm consistently solving for and iterating is the token context piece and the memory piece. That's a consistent thing that I'm engineering in the back end. Because that's the biggest problem that actually the big players are always facing, right? Like how to use tokens more efficiently and how it can remember and not forget things and go to the right places. And once again, this is a composite of human consciousness. It's like, what are we able to remember? How efficiently can we bring forth those memories and. And translate them in contextual ways to the conversation that were happening? Right. So it's like it's the whole same process that is being replicated right now. But yeah, you know, these are things that, you know, you will learn over time. And as more and more projects and products come out there, there'll be solutions that support with that. And this is what I'm at the core of what I'm developing with ace. It's like how to make it as efficient as possible so any creator can have as much bang for buck with their subscription whilst also having all of their context preserved. Because that's the ultimate goal that I think is going to help any AI creator really thrive. Nathaniel 01:26:28.460 - 01:26:29.660 I love this conversation. Yerasimos 01:26:30.620 - 01:26:35.500 I described my thing the same way. So that's cool that we both wanted to solve that problem. Joel 01:26:39.900 - 01:26:40.540 Love it. Nathaniel 01:26:40.540 - 01:26:55.000 I can't wait to go hang out with my robot in a little bit. My online robot. Listen, Joel and I are literally like, we work on Zoom and stuff and so I need to ask him, are you talking to me? Are you talking to your robot, bro? Joel 01:26:55.000 - 01:26:59.920 Like, what's up with Whisper? Yeah, like, bro, like, oh my God. Yerasimos 01:27:00.720 - 01:27:06.280 That's a game changer for sure. I. And I'm curious you found Nikhil for that cheaper one because. Joel 01:27:06.280 - 01:27:07.680 Yeah, me too. Brad, share that. Nikhil 01:27:08.160 - 01:27:08.720 Yeah,. Yerasimos 01:27:10.480 - 01:27:21.950 I don't know about you guys. I don't. I personally am not interested. Like all my agent. I. I call them employees instead of agents because it. Just for my psyche, it makes more sense. Like, this is an employee of mine who's doing this thing. Nathaniel 01:27:22.430 - 01:27:24.910 So I shouldn't be calling mine robot slaves. Yerasimos 01:27:26.110 - 01:27:34.470 That's what it is. I mean, if you're trying to be accurate, I guess that's what it is for you. Geez, bro. I pay mine. I pay mine in context. Joel 01:27:34.470 - 01:27:38.270 They love too much information. Nathaniel. We don't want to know how you pay. Yerasimos 01:27:41.460 - 01:28:09.020 But the idea of, you know, and if people want to do it this way, that's fine. I just like my. It's my robot and it has a name, and then I'm like, relating to this thing like it's a person. I, I. Conversationally, yes. Because that's what's most effective, right. With Claude code, like, I'm talking to it, and it might say some things back. So I, I get that there's a linguistic relationship that's. That's not just important. It's kind of the whole thing. But I do think it's important. Joel 01:28:11.820 - 01:28:12.340 I don't know. Yerasimos 01:28:12.340 - 01:29:15.540 People. People seem to be getting in a bit of trouble emotionally and psychologically and spiritually in some cases where they are. Like the guy who had his GPT convince him that he solved some math equation, right? And kind of went insane or something. And then I think he sued, you know, open AI or whatever. But I think that has also more to do with that person and where he was at and his ability to not, you know, like, get lucid in that situation, but just something as simple as something that is designed to, you know, affirm what you're doing so you can move forward with it. That's important. But it's not that hard to. You can give Claude whatever personality you want, right. If you explicitly. Like, as soon as I got started, like, whoa, I'm starting to build a lot of stuff, help keep me focused on the, you know, the real things, and let's have a system. So when I just spit out crazy ideas that have nothing to do with, like, what we're really doing, you can still develop that and have that happening somewhere. But just to account for the fact that I can have these extra ideas and not let myself get taken in a million directions. Joel 01:29:16.340 - 01:29:59.500 Yeah, for sure. And where I was going initially, when we're having the conversation about how to work with it as a beginner, and we mentioned human design as well, like, my relationship with AI, like, I'm much more. More of a manifesto, like, I'm informing of what I want. And I think when you know what you want and you can refine how clearly you communicate and your clarity enhances, then again this like exponentially increases productivity, actual output, all the rest of it, you know, but it's also like a masterclass in and of itself of refining your own communication to like be clear and to like have less bullshit in like how you explain and go about your ideas. Because the more clarity that you come with, the more clarity that you're going to get back throughout this process as well. Nikhil 01:30:00.060 - 01:30:33.210 And the more clear that you are, you're going to not going to burn as many tokens because if you're just unnecessarily putting a long ass paragraph, the system is taking all of that and it's making sense of all of that, which runs the cost, then giving you an output. And then if you're. Yes, there's a space for like open ended brainstorming conversations for sure, it's very useful. But if you're just creating something and if you're having a very long conversation each time you speak to the system, it has to read everything that was in the chat before and it's making sense of all of that. And about 50% into a chat it's already forgotten. Joel 01:30:33.369 - 01:30:33.729 Yeah. Nikhil 01:30:33.729 - 01:31:10.540 Even though it's going to say that it knows, it doesn't know. Right. So efficiency to your point, not just in how you're communicating, but how you're managing these conversations is really like a pro, a pro, pro level move. And it's actually right now there's a GitHub repository. If you get into this, you're going to love GitHub. Eventually it's going to become your number one app because you're going to find all these open source libraries of tools and technology that you can plug into your own systems. But someone created something called a caveman, which a lot of people are using and it trains your system to talk back to you like a caveman in as little as words as possible in the most efficient way possible. Yerasimos 01:31:10.860 - 01:31:12.060 Which fixed. Nikhil 01:31:12.140 - 01:31:18.660 Yeah, exactly. Right. So it's, it's, so, it's so fascinating. It's really is quite fascinating. But yeah, clarity is. Yerasimos 01:31:18.660 - 01:32:12.170 I saw that I, I don't want it to go full caveman, but I was like half cave. I saw, I'm like, oh yeah, you, you're pretty wordy in some of these responses. So let's clean that up a little bit. Yeah. But I also, I'm happy to waste waste tokens in certain ways that I'm using it for. Instance before anything big is built, I have it tell me what I call a loadout protocol. So it's like this whole thing I'm about to build, I'm just letting you know real quick all my assumptions and all the things I'm referencing and what's kind of going to be in that build. So I'm then not wasting tokens later with all the feedback around something that I missed. Does that make sense? It's like you can like preload a bunch of clarity. So you as the human are like, great, that actually is exactly what I need. And then you one shot it, which is one of my favorite goals. Like how can you give a prompt and have the thing you wanted done just from the one prompt or as far as something typical. Right. Nathaniel 01:32:12.170 - 01:32:35.060 Hey, real quickly, because I know we're kind of coming up to time, I want to honor your schedules. Nathaniel, you made a post about this the other day because you know they're always going to be those people that like when something new comes along, like you know, how much energy you're using and how much water and xyz. And you made this long post going into it, like, kind of like setting it straight from your point of view. And I'd love for you to dive into that. And Nikil, obviously share your thoughts also. Yerasimos 01:32:36.580 - 01:34:32.780 Yeah, it's just like everything else, especially headlines you'll see in the news. It's very nuanced. Does it use a lot of water and energy? Of course it does. Are there. Are there industries that use 5 times 6 times 7 times 8 times 9 times 10 times more water and energy than it. Yes. Golf courses, for example, use more water on average than the than data centers. And also golf courses are never going to invent a way to use less water for themselves or data centers. But data centers will come up eventually with better ways to use less water in every industry and just in one year alone. 1. I wish I could remember the exact where I'm referencing this from, but these stories of like certain data centers that improve the efficiency of their energy and water usage by a hundred thousand times in one year. Right. And then the next year they can just do that again. So yes, it's happening. Yes, it's a big deal. But these, these things have to fix this. They're forcing the fixes for these things. And modern agriculture still wastes more water. And modern agriculture isn't a bunch of nerdy scientists, AI guys who are going to figure out how to fix that and then have that translate over to the military as well. So AI is the one industry that's actually poised to make all of that better. People also don't realize a lot of data centers are closed loop systems so they actually produce what they need there. A lot of people don't realize data centers have existed since the 50s maybe I think it was 1945 was like the first official one. Everyone complaining about data centers on social media are using a data center to do it. And if you order a cup of coffee at a place like Starbucks, it will have cost the amount of water usage as about 30,000 GPT prompts. Nikhil 01:34:33.500 - 01:34:33.980 Wow. Yerasimos 01:34:33.980 - 01:34:42.300 I don't know about you Nikhil, but yeah, that's a ton of prompts. Right. You gotta, you're gonna be doing a lot to get to 30,000 prompts. Nikhil 01:34:42.510 - 01:34:42.710 Yeah. Nathaniel 01:34:42.710 - 01:34:44.350 Stop drinking coffee, save the planet. Yerasimos 01:34:44.670 - 01:37:25.790 Something like 35 gallons of water to produce a cup of coffee in like a mainstream coffee shop. Right. By the time it's produced and shipped and sent and all these different things. So just like everything else, it's very, very nuanced. It's actually very solvable. And the, the people who are using up all the water for these data centers are in the best position to solve it. And not just for this, but for everybody else. So again, it's a matter of leadership. It's a matter of like leaning into it to do something with it. I don't see any reality where we reverse. Like we stop using data centers and less AI and all this. So we literally have to charge forward in a way where data centers and even just from a PR standpoint, I don't see why these companies wouldn't get on board with this. Like they need to become like permaculture hubs of that entire city. They need to be growing food all around. They need to create deals with all these neighborhoods that are actually getting affected by the data centers. The people in those neighborhoods need to be using AI to build better deals and legislation and actually do the math so they can make a deal with those data centers. Right. These guys meta makes enough money to help either fix the water issue in this whole neighborhood or buy them all new houses in a different neighborhood. And all it would take is those people not just protesting outside the data center, but like coming up with a comprehensive game plan that only something like AI could do well enough to actually make a win win scenario for everybody. So I have my AIs. I built a whole legion of 20 bots that are researching every day to solve these types of things and connecting organizations that are working on more efficiency and all the environmental issues and things like that, that, so I'm trying to put my AI where my mouth is as well to, to back that up, please, dude. Yeah, it's much more. Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. The money where your mouth is. Right, whatever that phrase. So, yeah, that's kind of my take. It's, it's, it's a real thing just in similar to, you know, everyone's upset about climate change and then that's this amorphous term that can't even be defined and has all kinds of fraud and scams and things baked into it. But everyone knows what pollution is, right? Like, how about just less pollution? Yeah. And because it's pollution that causes climate change, so why don't we just actually focus on the, the pollution? So I think it's a similar thing where people just go, the, the concept of data centers is bad and the idea of the water usage is a problem, and then they don't actually go look into it and see what's being done about it. So all hail Lord Nuance for this, this part of the conversation. Joel 01:37:26.110 - 01:37:26.910 Yeah, for sure. Nikhil 01:37:27.710 - 01:37:38.230 Yeah, I'll, I'll just, I, I, I agree with all, I resonate with all of what you said and I'll just kind of reiterate that people are always going to try, try to find, find problems with things without being fully educated. Yerasimos 01:37:38.230 - 01:37:38.470 Right. Nikhil 01:37:38.470 - 01:38:53.400 I know, Joel, you ask, you see this every day. Everyone's an expert on something because they read an article here and there. And you know, to Nathaniel's point, there's so much nuance to all of it. One steak dinner is going to cost you half a year of your AI usage. So in terms of how much water in and out. So the bottom line is this, what is possible is going to outweigh what is the limitations or perceived limitations. And humans have a knack of solving things. And especially when there's more humans with the heart, with the benevolent intention. Like what you're building a tiny. Sounds phenomenal, right? I'd love to learn more about that. And we're going to come up with the solutions that are the long term. And the reality is, is, you know, we have the capability right now of, we've got the sun, we could have free electricity and power. There's, we're not running out of water on this planet. That's a fact. I think the bigger question is, is like, why is energy restricted? Why is, why are these limitations set on our society? There's a bigger question there that's more of an existential thing. And Mary, slightly conspiratorial, but ultimately we're going to find a way through it all. And yeah, just don't, don't throw the baby out with the butt water, so to speak. Rather be curious and see if you can hold both sides to a conversation. Yerasimos 01:38:53.560 - 01:38:53.840 Right. Nikhil 01:38:53.840 - 01:38:54.760 And save that water. Nathaniel 01:38:54.760 - 01:38:55.560 Save that water. Nikhil 01:38:56.120 - 01:38:58.280 Just throw the baby out. Just not the water. Joel 01:38:59.880 - 01:39:19.750 But I mean, like, again, it's going to be reflective of who and what you are. Like, there's going to be like, Karen AIs, you know, and there's going to be like capitalist AIs, and there's going to be like, you know, all of it happening. Like all the archetypes that exist within the collective are going to be like, you know, terraformed into archetypes that exist as this technology as well. Yerasimos 01:39:19.910 - 01:39:26.230 And how, but. And how may these archetypes change? Would Karen's exist if everyone had their needs met? Joel 01:39:26.310 - 01:39:26.710 No. Yerasimos 01:39:28.150 - 01:40:03.020 So do do the standard, well, memes and archetypes of culture and humanity, how does that evolve as these possibilities and this optimism becomes more and more integrated into reality? I'd like to think that, you know, Karen is one archetype, but even the archetype of a thief or a criminal, like, why do, why steal things when you have the things you need? And there, there are some studies that have been done around things like that where, you know, when people's needs are met, you kind of don't have the impulse to go do something out of integrity to meet that need. Joel 01:40:04.140 - 01:40:04.700 So just. Yerasimos 01:40:04.810 - 01:40:24.010 But as you brought that up, I hadn't really thought about that yet. And it's like we might actually start to change these sort of categories of human in that sense too, because humans have been playing out of this survival battle, survival of the fittest, kind of, you know, larger archetype of humanity for a long time. So we're interested. Joel 01:40:24.010 - 01:40:24.770 Interesting thoughts. Yerasimos 01:40:24.770 - 01:40:26.810 Threshold now to have new options. Nikhil 01:40:27.050 - 01:40:27.530 For sure. Joel 01:40:27.530 - 01:40:38.070 Man. Guys, love this conversation. Thank you so much. I want to grab closing statements from each of you and also anything you'd like to point our audience towards. Nikhil 01:40:40.150 - 01:40:46.230 Yeah, so closing statement. Just embrace. Embrace innovation. Yerasimos 01:40:46.470 - 01:40:46.790 Right. Nikhil 01:40:46.790 - 01:40:53.510 And embrace this paradigm shift. It really is. And while you, while you start to move quicker, don't forget to tend to your body. Yerasimos 01:40:53.910 - 01:40:54.230 Right. Nikhil 01:40:54.230 - 01:41:33.340 Because the body, you know, it can take a little bit of time, as we know, to, to adapt, especially when there's a lot more information coming in. But this is truly. I still believe this is like the greatest time to be alive because of what is possible right now, especially if you've got a mission on your heart. If you've got creativity flowing through you now, you've got no excuse because any friction can be dissolved instantaneously. So go out and have fun. And yeah, you can learn more about what I'm creating on my website, which is Nikhilkale.com and yeah, open to having more conversations about this. And yeah, just honored to be here with you all today. Joel 01:41:33.500 - 01:41:35.660 Thank you so much, bro. Nathaniel. Yerasimos 01:41:36.060 - 01:42:19.660 Yeah, so glad to be connected with you, Nikhil. I'm excited to, to connect some more after this. I feel like I have offered plenty of words to the episode today. So just in closing, I just really appreciate and respect anybody who listened through all of this because there's probably people who are anti AI coming to check this out and see what you guys have to say. And you know what we did. So just thank you for being willing and open to that. And everyone who's been curious or kind of excited or wondering, my message is go, go, go. Like, go get your hands dirty. Go figure it out. Go have fun. Go get creative. And thank you guys for letting me come and speak. And my website's nathanielsawace.com and you can connect with me there. Joel 01:42:20.460 - 01:43:04.140 Awesome, guys. So much love you both. Just appreciate sharing this time and space with you all and like, you know, really navigating this frontier together in many ways. Like, like you mentioned, like, we all have a unique map inscribed on our souls, on our hearts. And you exist at a certain time period of human evolution where this technology now exists. And in my personal opinion, those two things coexisting at this time aren't accidental. Like, nothing's accidental. Like we, we chose this existence, we chose this time and place. You have a unique purpose, unique mission, and now you have unique tools to go and execute at a higher and better level as well. So if you feel the call, dive in. Thank you so much as always for listening. Any closing words from you? Yours, Moss? Nathaniel 01:43:04.860 - 01:43:17.760 No, man. Just appreciate being a part of this conversation. I feel, like I said earlier, I feel more inspired. It's exciting to see what's on the horizon and yeah, grateful that you guys both joined us and I think our audience is going to get a lot out of this and yeah, see you guys soon. Joel 01:43:18.160 - 01:43:19.440 Adeline. Take care, everyone.