Nash Mackey Death: Finding the Silver Lining

[Speaker 1] (0:00 - 2:29) Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Here for the Truth podcast. My name is Joel Rafiti. I've got my co-host Erasmus with me. Today, we're joined by Nash Mackey. We first met Nash in early 2022 when we became serious about really making this podcast what we do on a deeper level, monetizing it. He was working with some coaches that we hired to help us launch our first group coaching program. And just the way you synchronistically meet people and come across people is a whole story in itself, for sure. But there's just this sincerity about Nash, which Erasmus and I both sensed pretty much immediately. And to be connected to him. And I think anyone that gets to have a conversation with Nash and be within his presence, there's no doubt that there's a level of depth to this human being, which is very, very impactful. And so today, we're having a conversation, exploring this topic of death. It's a conversation which has been close to our hearts, and one that we've had previously. Nash recently experienced the death of 2 siblings of his within a very close time frame of one another. So we explore his story, we explore his perspectives, and we share our stories as well. I just feel like by listening to this conversation, you're going to be expanded as a human being and have acquired a new level of depth and perspective around this profoundly important topic. So please enjoy. Nash is a leading Australian breakthrough coach for high performers around the world. His clients include pro level athletes, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and many others in the high performance and leadership roles. He specializes in supporting his clients to break through subconscious blocks and achieve new levels of personal and professional mastery through building true resilience and developing habits and perspectives that enable them to expand their visions and be at their best when it matters most. We first spoke to Nash from an episode called Climbing the Mountain, which was over a year ago now. Bro, how you been, man? Welcome back. Gentlemen, absolute privilege to be back with you both. I've shared this before, the conversation we had previously was one of my favorite interviews I've ever done. So I just love jamming out with you guys. Thank you so much for having me. [Speaker 2] (2:30 - 2:46) Same here, man. Really excited to have you. I know you've gone through a lot in the last year and maybe you want to start off by sharing what amazing accomplishment you just did in the last, I think, week or two. Yeah. And the motivation for it. [Speaker 1] (2:47 - 8:17) Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And I think it's hard to separate the two because the driving force behind what I did and what you're referring to is I completed a world record in a particular niche that I found a particular exercise that I enjoyed doing. And I can share why I decided to the world record and how that all tied in. But essentially, I wanted to promote a message around encouraging people to check in with themselves, to be courageous if they're struggling, to reach out and find some sort of support and find a way to make a change ultimately. Because as you guys know, as I know, there is so much available to us to make a shift in life. And I think a lot of people limit themselves. And that whole message came on the back end of two of my siblings ending their lives last year. My eldest brother ended his life. And then shortly after that, my younger sister, she was actually two years younger than me. She ended her life as well. So, that was just insane to navigate, like, talk about, you know, and like, I've spoken to a number of people in the space and they're like, it's very, very rare that you have two people in a family do, like, kind of end their lives so close together. It might happen over the course of a few years, but so close, you know, and if I could just be real as possible with you guys, like how intense that is, even like putting them in the same grave, like it was literally the same gravesite and people don't think about that, you know, it's so real. So, that was the experience that was in my mind. And I decided to do this world record for a couple of reasons, guys, because number one, I had a client who was completing a world record. I was supporting her with mindset work and I was scheduled to do that three days after my brother ended his life. So, he ended his life. I was there on the scene. I discovered his body. I was there with the police, like in the realest experience of it possible. But I had to show up for my client still, because I just know life has to go on. So, I was there in this amazing experience of this woman who I was supporting going for this world record and she was doing it to promote awareness for spinal cord recovery and research. And I saw this and I was like, wow, she's getting such momentum behind this phenomenal message. And I had this big event with my brother ending his life just three days ago. And so, it was like I was having these, you know what they say, what fires together, wires together in the brain. And I was seeing this and I was like, this is really profound. And I've got a value on fitness. So, I was like, why can't I use my value on fitness to also promote a message? And I really liked that because I found that a lot of people don't necessarily pay attention to messages just when you're on social media talking. But if you get some skin in the game and say, hey, you sort of, I guess, meet people at their level of awareness. And a lot of people like, I think it's riddled throughout history. We like seeing other humans do physically challenging things. There's something kind of enticing about it. I think even since the time of the Coliseums, we've liked to see humans getting in there doing stuff. But I wanted to use this experience to promote a message to really encourage people because my big thing, guys, was I don't like to say I wish because I find that kind of talking is a little unproductive. But if I was in charge of the universe, I might have written the script quite a bit differently with my brother and sister. And I would have loved to have had the opportunity to maybe have them reach out to me and be like, man, could you support me a little bit? And I'll be honest with you guys, they were receiving a lot of support, but it was clearly not the support that they needed, if that makes sense. There was a deeper part of them that was hurting. And I think that there's a part of us that, well, this is true for all humans, there's a part of us that only we know about. And it's important for us to be brave enough to be like, yeah, this part is, you know, there's a darkness there or there's something going on and I want to talk about this with someone or I want to deal with this or navigate this with someone. The interesting thing is people get lonely, they get confused, they get judgmental of that experience and they feel ashamed of it and they feel lonely and lost in it and they just go, you know, so much introspection to the point where they lose themselves in it. And that's what I want to see change because I don't believe that has to be the way forward. Profound, bro. I can't even imagine the intensity of that experience. Just to clarify for those listening, what was the world record? What were you doing, just for those that are unaware? Yeah, thank you, brother. So, it was a push-up with a T rotation. So, I did that over 24 hours. The agreed amount was 4,000 with the Guinness World Record. I ended up completing 6,181. [Speaker 2] (8:19 - 8:30) So, bro, I remember like coming in on your lives a couple of times and people were like, oh, he's at 4,000 but there's this many hours left, like, let's get five and you're like, let's get six. [Speaker 1] (8:31 - 8:58) Had someone set a record previously for this or you set it for the first time? Brother, honestly, I can't even explain it but yeah, there was no existing record in this particular exercise. Wow. Yeah. So, you've set the bar now. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens and honestly, I will take my hat off to whoever beats it. I am not going to compete them. I'm just like, I salute you. I'm coming for you, bro. [Speaker 2] (8:58 - 9:02) I'm spending the next six months of my life for the push-up with the T twist. [Speaker 1] (9:04 - 9:06) If you do your awesome-ass, I will challenge you, man. [Speaker 2] (9:06 - 9:59) No way. No way. I'm joking, bro. I'm joking, man. I don't think I'll be attempting a world record but man, like, much respect, dude. I really can't imagine what that's like. I mean, I had an eldest brother who lost his life tragically and younger than he should have and it's an interesting thing navigating grief and then moving on with life and at the same time for you to have two siblings so close together. I mean, I have to be honest. I've never met anyone. I've never had a client that's experienced something like that within their family. So, I'm curious, like, how do you, like, you know, you've been in this world of personal development and shadow work, et cetera, all this stuff. Like, how do you navigate the balance between the part of you that is so hurt and grieving and needs to experience that and life needs to continue to be lived? [Speaker 1] (10:00 - 18:06) Yeah, bro. Such a good question. I love that you're in tune to even ask that question. Thank you because and by the way, that's been something I've been hopefully doing my best to share on my social media that it's important to feel everything and be in that true experience and not pretend it didn't happen and, like, trying to escape what your body needs to feel on the result, like, on the back end of something like that but also still be productive and proactive in moving forward. So, I, having worked in hospitals as I've shared on previous chats with you guys, I'm training as a combat medic, 17 years old, working in hospitals. I kind of had to get a perspective of the world that allowed me to move forward back then. I was seeing so much death and moving bodies and carrying limbs out of hospitals, like, just crazy stuff like that, you know, at such a young age as I trained for that role as a combat medic and working in operating theatres in addition to that for two years. Like, so, I was in that world and I was seeing events, like, just to be really real with you guys, you know, babies not making it, things like that, like, real things, like, and there's something about children in particular that's really intense and seeing parents hold their little ones in their arms. And so, my brain was seeing all of that at a really young age. And for me, like, I started breaking down, guys. I started having anxiety attacks, like, in public, it was full on, because my system didn't know how to quite compartmentalize that. And while I felt like I was in the right space doing this work, like, just supporting and operating theatres in the ways I could, I also knew that there was something up because my brain didn't quite know how to pack that away. It's like, how do I make sense of this? Because to me, I just see that as, so, it shouldn't be that way. And I sort of had this resistance and judgment toward it. And so, the work I started to do was just, how do I gain perspective? So, I started studying actually a lot and I've not shared this much. I started studying a lot about death and dying and about how different cultures perceive that and about maybe the essence of what actually is going on when a human passes and what is a human and what is a being, like, the human being and how does that all package together and, like, what's really going on? And I really started developing perspectives so I could look back at that stuff in the hospital and make sense of it. So, I started this journey for selfish reasons. And then I also got real with the fact that I've got people around me who I love and who inevitably are going to pass because I was very in touch with that. Because of being in hospitals, I know how fragile life is and how sacred it is. And so, I was like, if I want to actually set myself up to win in the future, I must develop perspectives that will help me deal with someone passing because it's going to happen. And I didn't avoid that reality, quite frankly. And so, I started to, again, like, really break down what I believe makes up a human being, an individual. Like, I really started connecting with that. And then I also started just studying other cultures who do well on the other side of someone's passing. Instead of judging and resisting, they actually even honour their passing and say, this was their time to transition. This was it. And they move on because there are some cultures that literally celebrate when someone passes. And while I would like to think that that passing happens of natural causes, I think that beyond us as individuals, there's a greater power at play that kind of interweaves a perfection into every event of life, despite what humans do with our limited understanding and the often shitty decisions we make. There's a bigger perfection at play. And that's what I like to think I'm a little bit connected to that has allowed me to get through it. And if I might just share, guys, when my dad sent me a message and said, could you please go check on your brother, I'm really concerned with him. We've received some messages that are very, you know, worrying. Because my parents had been there supporting him on a high level, he'd been going through a very, very gnarly divorce. And quite frankly, he just drank too much alcohol one night. He was actually doing okay, but he went and just had too much alcohol and he made a really shitty decision. So, he was kind of on a pretty good path, like he was getting support. And that's why none of us were like too concerned about him, but it was just in the state of drinking alcohol, made a really shitty decision. And that was it. So, when I got that message, I straight away knew that what I might be finding is what I did find. So, what I did was, I really dug deep and I started balancing in my mind. I'm like, my brother right now could have ended his life or he could be sitting down at a cafe, we just don't know. And I made this commitment within myself, I said, regardless of how this plays out, I'm going to use this moment in time of just this uncertainty to go and impact more. I'm unattached to how this plays out. I hope he's sitting at a cafe somewhere and he sent some fearful texts or some kind of scare texts as a way to get a bit of attention or something. But I made a commitment, I was like, what's the impact I'm going to have regardless of how this goes? And I anchored to that impact already and I made a decision that I was going to go and double down on the work I do and support more people so they're not in this place that he clearly was in as much as I humanly can. And so, when I found him, I just honestly moved into gratitude where I was like, brother, I honour your decision, I cannot change it, I cannot change this. And I straight away went into, I love you for this decision because this is going to impact lives, this is going to change lives. And I wish I could write this story different, but I can't. And so, I honour you and I promise to live on on your behalf. And I promise to make other people's lives even greater on your behalf. And that is, like, as I stood there looking at him in that most vulnerable state, that is truly the decision I made in my heart. And it lit a new fire within me, brother. And that was it. That was it. And I honestly, I promise to live on for him. And then I did the same with my sister. And that's it, guys. So, I know that might be a little bit raw for some people and a little bit real, but I'm just being honest here. And I love him. I have the most beautiful connection to him and my sister still. I even have a deeper connection. I connect with him every day in my own way. Part of what I said before about what makes us up as humans is I believe energy can't be created or destroyed, as I said. And I have a beautiful relationship with him now. And it's beautiful, the little signs and synchronicities I receive in life. My sister's name is Beatrice, we used to call her Bee. And just sometimes, like, I'll be sitting out writing, I'll just get like a bee come and just land on my finger and then just fly off, just like stuff like that. I can't even explain it. And it's just, as Einstein says, you can see nothing is a miracle or everything is a miracle. And I find seeing everything as a miracle to be a perspective that serves as opposed to doing the opposite. [Speaker 2] (18:11 - 19:06) Man. I don't have any words, except I just appreciate your view, your strength, your presence around this too. Because it's like even hearing you talk, there's that part of me that can go into like, well, did he really mourn? Did he really feel? But like with you, man, it just really feels like there's something greater there and that you've gone through this journey, you've experienced the feelings that you need to experience. And yet, you see the bigger picture. You have a way of reframing this event. And accepting it too, because I think a lot of people, they struggle with facing reality. And they argue with reality. And I get it, it's part of the process. And yet, what's next? How do you move forward? How do you learn from this? How do you grow from this? And how do you take something tragic and turn it into a blessing in a certain way? And it seems like that's what you've done and what you continue to do. [Speaker 1] (19:08 - 27:31) Yeah, brother, thank you for saying that. And if I might just share also, to make it understood, I guess to support people understand, how did I process that emotion and everything else that comes up in the body as a result of that? Well, there's a couple of parts to that. Well, the first thing I did was I spoke. I spoke to a lot of guys, in particular, like many of my circles. I think you guys reached out to me, even though I was voice noting things to you, like just like honest, like thanking you for your concern, because you knew Gus, my brother as well. Well, yeah, I want to just let people know. So your middle brother, Gus, he was working with us during this time. And yeah, we received a message from him letting us know about your older brother, which just absolutely shocked us. And then yeah, not long after that, he shared another message about your sister. And I just remember being like, what is going on? Like, what are the odds that two siblings have gone like this in such a short period of time? So, being close to it and hearing it firsthand from Gus, like it was wild, man, absolutely wild. Yeah, 110%. And I will share just to give a little bit of context there, like God love my younger sister. She's just the most beautiful soul. She was fighting a battle for many years. She was under kind of mainstream psychiatric care. And both my siblings weren't necessarily, they didn't share the maybe views I have on the world. And not to say my views are superior by any means, but also I do the work I do for a reason, because I think it makes a difference. And I think it serves. And they were sort of on more, we could call mainstream thinking. And yeah, my younger sister was struggling with psychosis for many years as well, as it's labelled. And she was actually with my brother that night, he consumed a lot of alcohol. Like she was actually there with him, pouring him the alcohol, quite frankly, having a bit of a drinking session with him. And so, her beautiful little mind, knowing that that was something that contributed. And I could tell, I was very mindful how we told her the news, I was there. And by the way, that's one of the other parts of these guys was like, I was there making the phone calls to all the rest of my family. I was there telling my parents their son had ended their life, his life. And hearing, when you hear the parents like response to something like that, being a dad myself with children, like, man, that's as real as it gets. How old was your brother, Nash, your older brother? He was early 40s. Early 40s. Yeah. And yeah, that was big, but he was navigating an intense divorce. And he was fighting for the custody of his own son. And it's been interesting, guys, I've actually had a client recently, who is more or less, his situation more or less mirrors what my brother's situation was, a really gnarly divorce. A little boy in the mix, he's fighting for him. And he came to me, this client came to me because he was in an extremely dark place. And it was quite profound. And again, this is what I'm saying about these incredible synchronicities, I got to support that client in a way that I would have loved to have supported my brother. But because of my brother's experience, I was able to support this client on an even deeper level than I probably would have before, because I was aware of the reality of his experience. And he's been able to go on to do the most incredible things in his life, this guy. And I've seen that firsthand. So, I just feel like something's aligning, guys. I can't even explain it, but something's at play. Yeah. I hear you, bro. I hear you. And I completely echo that sentiment that there's something greater at play in all things. Just if I can speak a little bit candidly in terms of what comes up for me, and I guess what might be coming up in those listening, like the odds of this happening just seems so wild. Thinking back on it or looking back, was there anything like developmentally or in your childhood that led to this potential tendency being within both siblings? Is there anything that you've reflected on? Why did this happen within my system or within the system? It's a great question. And you guys are probably thinking it, the audience might be thinking it, I was certainly thinking it. I think about the amount of work I've done on myself, and I still feel like there's still so much more to do. And I'm like, I look at people who might not necessarily be doing the work, as we call it, and I'm like, how do they cope? You know what I'm saying? So, what I know to be true is that it's hard to say if there was a specific thing. So, one thing with my younger sister that I do know to be true was there was a severe head injury at a very young age, like a severe cracking of the skull open. So, what we do know, and that was at a very young age, she threw herself back off a chair just as a little kid, throwing a tantrum. So, if you look at the work of, say, Dr. Daniel Amin, who scans brains, often if there's a very abnormal behaviour that manifests, often that can be due to a damage in the brain, like a legitimate thing. So, there could be something like that at play. I personally feel that there was, my younger sister got involved with a religious group, and I feel like there was a lot of judgment for herself. I could see her as my younger sister who wanted to be someone, but then I feel like she also repressed a part of herself. And I saw her have a bit of a change in her behaviour as a result of being associated with a particular religious group. And I think that she put impossible standards on herself as a part of being in that religious group, and maybe just got lost in all of that, because I certainly saw a correlation there. But I guess what I'm saying is, humans, and I know this to be true in the work I do, supporting people, using hypnosis and everything else I do, people often go back to moments in time that are all to do with the origins of an issue, and they can be so slight. It could be the parent at a sink who ignores them because the parent's having a shitty day. And so, it's really hard to say what was it specifically. My eldest brother, he was an incredibly skilled church organist, incredibly skilled. He had a fellowship in church organ playing. And so, he'd travel around the world to these massive cathedrals and play this beautiful music. And from the outside, it looked like he was doing okay. But you never truly know, again, what's that deep part of ourselves feeling. And if we feel like we can't control that monster at times, it's worth finding other people who could support us do that. But then that involves us being connected with ourselves and being in tune to what's going on inside of us and how am I truly doing. [Speaker 2] (27:32 - 28:29) Yeah. There's this dualistic nature within the psyche. And I always wonder this when I come across people that come across as everything's great, life is amazing. And I'm always wondering, like, what's on the other side? Now, I'm not saying that this was the case with your brother, but I'm curious because I know within myself, like most people that meet me, oh, you're awesome. He's a good guy. He's a nice guy. He's fun, this and that. But I'm also in touch with the darker elements of me and some of the insecurities or the more anti-social aspects of me. I'm in touch with them. And so, it's interesting when you think about why a person does what they do, especially when everyone around them or at least the public around them, they would never guess that. But it's like we are, like you said earlier, we're all fighting this battle of being human and navigating all these different energies and qualities within us. And anyways, that thought just came to me. [Speaker 1] (28:29 - 28:54) I hear, brother. I 100% resonate with what you're saying. And I don't know what your guys' belief is on this, but I certainly am of the belief that, you know, that there is generational stuff that gets passed down. Like, all my siblings were feeling how much of it was theirs or my parents' or society's or... Ancestral, past life. That all comes into play. [Speaker 2] (28:55 - 29:02) You guys get it. Mother psychology while the baby's in utero has an impact on- A thousand percent. On the baby. There's so many factors. [Speaker 1] (29:03 - 32:39) A thousand percent. And trust me, I've had those moments in time where I've tried to, like, dissect it. I'm like, why? Why? Why? Because that's, like, what the brain wants to do. But then I'm like, why am I playing that game? Like, I can't control the thing about what happened. And I'm going to look for how do I support other individuals and empower myself as much as possible and my kids and my family to have hopefully a state of being or a state of mind where this isn't an option, where this isn't a thing anymore. You know, and if I can support my family to do that and what I have taken away from this is I've deliberately cultivated a deeper relationship with all of my siblings as much as humanly possible. Like, even though I thought it was deep before, I go as much as I can in amongst everything else I've got to do. I deliberately cultivate connections with them, check-ins with them. And so that's been a blessing in itself. And that's what I find is really important, is to be proactive in using what's happened as an opportunity, as a launching pad to move forward. Yeah. There's no doubt there's higher reasons and there's higher gifts, you know, on the other side of perceived tragedy, you know. But it has to be received by an individual who's consciously willing to receive it, you know. And very, very often these gifts and these deeper wisdoms that become available, they just go by because the other person is, you know, not, I guess, conscious enough and not willing to see what's on the other side fully. Like, last November, my wife and I found out that the third child we're expecting had passed away in utero and she had a miscarriage. And I've shared this story before and, you know, she carried the baby in utero deceased for three months and still born naturally at home when it was ready in its own time. And, you know, of course, there's incredible pain and grief and confusion that comes with all of that. But there's also an undeniable recognition of the immense evolution that's become available to my family as a result of that. Like, my wife's my relationship, we've healed deeper stuff, which we probably never would have got to if it wasn't for this. My wife was already working in the birth space as a holistic birth daughter supporting others. And now she has this incredible new depth of wisdom in this niche arena available to her to support others as well. And then not even one month after that happened, she fell pregnant again, like not even one cycle. And so, you know, it came back to us like pretty much immediately. And, you know, it's just so much of a man is being willing to be fully present with the experience, allowing it to impact you, not disassociating, not running from it, feeling it fully, having two feet on the ground, and recognizing that things are held in balance, you know? Brother, yes. Mate, thank you so much for sharing. I wasn't aware of your experience, brother. That's full on. And as I said, in particular with, you know, children, there's something really, you know, that's another- They're so innocent. They're just so innocent. It's like, why get it? Yeah. And that can be the question, like, why, you know? [Speaker 2] (32:39 - 32:42) It just feels like it goes against the natural order when parents outlive their children. [Speaker 1] (32:43 - 32:45) Yeah. A hundred percent. [Speaker 2] (32:45 - 32:47) Like it's something like, wait, this isn't how it's supposed to go. [Speaker 1] (32:48 - 35:53) And that can certainly be the dialogue that comes up for sure. It was interesting in amongst my brother and sister and in their lives, I actually had a best mate who I was supporting him and he's, you know, I was working as a head coach for him as well. And he had a child die birth, perfectly normal pregnancy. Everything was fine. And then right at birth. And so, I was actually going away for a few nights to my family just to kind of have a little bit of respite in between, or actually after my brother passed. And I got a call from him when I was away and he's like, man, I need you to go to my group straight away and tell them what's like, I can't run a call today because of this. And like, he's got a big social media following and everyone was kind of expecting this and he'd had the baby thing going on and I had to go on break. And so, yeah, we're talking about Joel Brown, obviously, another previous podcast guest of ours dude. 40 weeks, losing a baby that late into it, like that is shattering. Like, I obviously lost mine early on, like just, you know, three and a half, 20 weeks, which is still, you know, past the first trimester. But to have built a relationship to that extent with this child, to be so excited, so giddy at the point of birth, at the point of welcoming it, like there is a deep relationship built between mother, child, father, child at this point. And then to lose it at that moment, man. Yeah. No words, man. Honestly, just no words. It's like, how do you come to terms with that? And I don't know if anyone ever does. I think it's actually quite a healthy perspective to say that like just owning the fact that your life will never be the same and be like, that's true. It's never going to be this, like that's going to, I'm going to feel that for the rest of my life and being real about that. Because that also shows that, yeah, you truly cared about that outcome. You wanted that. And so, I can't even comprehend what it must be like with a, you know, the passing of a little one. And I have certainly been on the cusp of that with our baby girl with her challenges, being born with multiple holes in her heart and having to sign those forms when she went to surgery, like saying that she may very well not make it. And having to be like kind of dad to two other kids who are seeing their little sister being born and then being like, oh, by the way, she needs to go and have 21 tubes plugged into her and lying there in bed. And their little brains being like, why is she in this bed? Like, why is she having all these tubes? Like, and helping their little brains come to terms with that. And what I've learned to be true about kids is they are the ultimate accountability partners. They hold us to a standard as parents where it would be so easy to let ourselves like like spiral down into a mess. [Speaker 3] (35:53 - 35:54) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (35:54 - 43:46) But kids give us the- And we don't have to, by the way, as parents, like as parents, we could go and spiral. But kids, if we choose to let them hold us accountable to navigating things with as much grace as possible, because we want to pass that on to them, you know, we want to pass them because they're going to go through their own challenges. And I think that there's a beautiful opportunity when you have kids to or just navigate things in a way and hold yourself to a standard where you're certainly not making things worse than they are. You're probably feeling everything as much as going to set a good example in their mind of, yeah, OK, mum and dad feel stuff, but they don't lose themselves in stuff. So, like they're always on my mind in these big, intense times, if that makes sense. Yeah, bro. I hear you, man. So, when- With the baby that we lost, when my wife went into labour three months after the fact, so she was technically like six or seven months pregnant at this point in time, even though the baby stopped growing at 19 weeks. And like, she still had a home birth, which was witnessed by my kids. Wow. So, me and my two children were there when the baby was born, you know, as this little fetus, which is something that's incredibly surreal, bro, to see a baby that size come through. And they held the baby's hand, bro. They were with it. They were completely present to the reality of death, you know. And I think that's the key thing in conversations like this and in these discussions is that we live in a very death adverse culture. And I think, you know, the more that we can begin to welcome death and understand death and have a little bit more balance when it comes to how we perceive death, I think, you know, the greater that we're all going to be as a society and as a collective, I think so much of what we see is driven by this just complete turning a blind eye to this reality. Brother. Mate, first of all, just... I'm kind of speechless for the fact that that's how you navigated that experience and that you were able to give your children that experience too. Like, man, what a freaking gift you've given them. And honouring that beautiful little creation. Wow. And not having it like, oh, because they've passed, like, we're just going to kind of hush this away and like, get over and done with. Like, you still had a celebration almost of that little being, because that's what you deserve. You said it was a girl. Was that correct? No, we don't know. Gender was... Okay. We're unable to determine gender. But yeah, man, we had the baby in our home, you know, for a few days until we felt it was time to put a close to it. And then we went and we live in, obviously, Playa Del Carmen, Mexico. We went and found a pretty empty and isolated part of the beach and we're walking for a spot that felt right to like, bury the child and have a little ceremony. And we found this incredible tree, man. It's a little bit inland from the beach and it felt right. And so we did that thing. I dug a grave. We buried the child. You know, the girls put some soil in it. We were all there. We did our thing. We sent it off properly. And I took a photo of this tree. It was a beautiful tree. Like, it felt as though this was the resting place. And we're in Mexico, mind you. And then afterwards, I shared the word out to ask people, like, what kind of tree is this? Like, I wanted to know what kind of tree it was. And mind you, we're in Mexico. This was an Australian she-oak tree on a beach in Mexico. Yeah, man. What a chance. Yeah. And this means mother and protector. This is the symbology of this tree. And that's what I mean, man. It's like, there's some things that it's like, what the hell? Man, how incredible. Wow. Wow. Brother, and again, I acknowledge your perspectives on this. And I know you guys have done so much work and it doesn't make it necessarily any easier. In fact, often when you've done the work, like those feelings, we don't maybe have escapes like a lot of people might turn to. So, you know, I know for me, when my siblings passed, alcohol wasn't an option. I don't have that as something. So, I was there. I was, you know, I didn't have that. So, the feelings were real and they were present and I know I felt them. So, wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing, Joel, man. Again, I wasn't fully aware of that experience and thank you for sharing and just honor you for navigating that with so much grace. No, no worries, bro. I appreciate it. And like you mentioned, like in the aftermath of those experiences, how, you know, you feel you still have a relationship, you know, with your brother, with your sister, like a deeper connect, like the veil seems to thin a little bit between physical reality and, you know, the spirit world, if we can call it that. So, not long after that, man, like my wife started feeling this like energy over the right side of her shoulder. And like it was undeniable, this presence, like it was the realest thing to her. And she started opening dialogue and having communication with this energy. And this energy was telling her like, I am this baby. I am this baby. And it was saying to her, I want to come back. I'm ready to come back. I want you to be my parents. And it was giving her information about where it wants to be born, about name, about gender, about all these sorts of things. And then, like I mentioned to you, man, not even one cycle later and she's pregnant again now, the baby's due early December. And for her, there is like zero plus, there is zero doubt that this is the same soul. That's come back through in having this dialogue preconception. That is profound, brother. And so, they kind of did the sneaky on you. They gave you this experience to awaken something in you. And then it's like, hey, I'll be back. That's what I think. I think, admittedly, it was like, there's a leap that needs to take place. The room needs to be made for me and you guys aren't ready for it. So, I'm going to come through. I'm literally on some level like this is happening intentionally for you guys to grow, for you to expand, for you to have more empathy, for you to realize the importance, for you to be more connected to what's happening maybe beyond physical reality. And then I'm going to come back through in the way that I want to come back through. That's honestly what it feels like. Yeah, mate. And what a phenomenal frame of mind to hold as well. And just like that is honouring life as opposed to resisting life. Because a part of life, as you guys said, is the death experience. And, you know, you can't have life without death. Like they're inseparable. And you're right. I totally agree and resonate with what you said with you feel that we need to kind of maybe do some work on developing perspectives in relationship too. And I'm mindful not to use the word loss because I don't feel like it's a loss. I feel like it's a passing. It's a transition. And I'm very, very deliberate with that language. You'll never hear me say I lost my brother and sister. No, they transitioned, they passed. And so, that would be something just as- because words matter. I would offer anyone because the truth is I knew my siblings for their entire life. Their life was just short. So, was that really a loss? I don't know. [Speaker 4] (43:47 - 43:47) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (43:48 - 46:59) And it kind of negates what has been gained, you know? 100%. 100%. And if we go deeper into the work, so often what we- and actually, I'd just like to touch on this, if this is okay, because this is really important if we're talking about, you know, gaining perspective around death, I think that there are certain ideas of how people feel they should respond or react to someone's passing that are ingrained through society. And a lot of people get very lost because they're trying to play a role almost. I don't know if that's the right wording. Yes. But they're trying to essentially live out society's expectations because they're like, if I'm not doing this, it must show that I don't care. And I think that that's a real thing. So, I think that everyone's experience around death is individual. And I think that it's important that we come to terms with death before it- like, hopefully, ideally, before we have to, essentially. So, we develop, we think about it, we process. And if you look at some of the greatest thinkers in the history, like they had a very healthy relationship with the fact that, you know, life isn't forever. And they use that as a great driver. Philosophers did that, you know. And I think it's important, yeah, to address it head on and say, okay, this is the thing. Like, what do I think about it? How do I feel about it? And connecting to that, but also not feeling obligated if someone's passed around you and you actually do feel a sense of peace, not feeling like you have to play a role of living in grief. Like, if you feel a sense of peace, that's okay. Don't feel guilty about your peace when someone passes. Because I think a lot of people do have guilt around, I'm actually okay. Yeah. And again, I'm not saying to mask it. As I said, I spoke to people. I deliberately- I was talking to people all the time. I was calling mates. I was saying, this is what's just happened. And I would get them to ask me questions. And I'll be like, you know, I just wanted to share honestly, I would share every single detail. I'm like, I hope this is okay. I'm going to share every single detail with you, man. And they're like, bro, go for it. And I just let myself speak about it. Because again, I didn't have alcohol or, you know, vices like that to turn to. I would go into my ice bath, which is one of my favourite places and just sit in there and like, feel like everything comes up. Because in the ice bath, like, what's real in your body tends to surface. I can't quite explain it. But I really like felt things and just in tune with the body and connected to the body and the mind, like, very, very powerful stuff. I was doing my own breathwork journeys. I'll take myself on hour-long breathwork journeys or longer and just breathe into the body and feel every depth of it and replay moments from my childhood with these beautiful individuals and just like face off with it and feel it. And so, that was my process. I just lent in because I didn't want to harbour that in my system because I know how detrimental that is, if that makes sense. [Speaker 4] (47:00 - 47:00) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (47:03 - 47:05) Now, a short break from the episode. [Speaker 1] (47:07 - 47:56) Hey, everyone, really hope you're enjoying this all-important conversation. Just a quick message, if anyone's interested, if this is a topic that you're interested in, within our membership community, Friends of the Truth, we have a specific death and dying channel where we open the space for vulnerable conversations like these to be had for people to share, for perspectives to be offered. We have Tracy, the death midwife within our community and she's there offering guidance and advice as well. So, if you feel called to connect with community and to have authentic conversations, then you can do so at friendsofthetruth.co. Back to the episode. Love you both. You too, brother. [Speaker 2] (47:57 - 47:58) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (47:59 - 47:59) You too. [Speaker 2] (47:59 - 51:33) Yeah, death, man. Like Joel said, man, we live in a death phobic culture and I think having these types of conversations are important. You know, I mean, I've shared on multiple episodes and I think you may know, but my dad passed away in February and I agree with you. Like, I don't think I experienced it maybe the same way as some other people, partly because when you have a 93 year old father, at least for me, I thought about him dying for 15 years. You know, I was like, oh, he's 80, he can die at any moment. You know, what would that be like? I imagined it. So, when it happened, well, of course, you still don't want to, the reality of it is still different, you know, than thinking about it. But still, it felt like on some level, like I prepared myself for it, you know, and then was able to do what I needed to do to be there for my mother, et cetera, et cetera, you know. Wow. You know, in our community, we had a death cafe recently. We have someone we've worked with who we've been helping, you know, support her business and she's a death midwife. And so, in Friends of the Truth, we had a death cafe and, you know, people came to just talk about whatever, you know, they wanted to talk about surrounding this. And Tracy, the death midwife, she facilitated this amazing experience. And then she went on to, she's hosted other death cafes before and I went to another one she hosted and like, they're really so beautiful, man. Like, to be able to come together, to be in a room and to see what comes up and for people to share things that maybe you don't feel comfortable sharing with other people or just to have a place where the container is set. Like, this is what we're going to talk about. And there's no right thing, there's no wrong thing. Maybe you lost a parent 20 years ago. Maybe you have an elderly parent. Maybe no one's on the verge of maybe dying soon from a health standpoint and you're curious about this subject and you want to know more. And there's so many things about death people don't even know. And you talk about all these cultures, so many different cultures approach death in such a different way. But I think in the modern world, modern Western world especially, it's like, let's just push it under the rug. And then we are not prepared. The things happen, you don't even know what a funeral costs. You know, you don't even know what all these things are. And it's just like, oh, I got to deal with this shit. And how do I deal with it? And then navigate the loss and then deal with family and deal with... And so it's just like, I think these kinds of conversations that we're having, like what you've gone through, obviously what Joel's gone through, like, I mean, the power of that and to share our stories and not to just hide them and to be like, this is an opportunity for people to go, oh, wow, look at these guys, they're talking about this stuff. I want to share some stuff. Maybe I'll reach out to them. Maybe I'll send them a DM. Maybe I'll drop them an email. Oh, wow, Nash, thank you so much for sharing your story. I lost my brother when he was XYZ age. And I just think, unless we share these things, a lot of times we don't give permission to others like, hey, it's okay. You can open up, you can be vulnerable. You can have a whole range of emotions around this. This isn't to say like, hey, if you're rageful, if you're angry because someone passed, that's the experience that you're meant to be having in that moment. And what can you learn from that? After you have the experience and hopefully there is a period of self-reflection and go, wow, that's interesting. I was so angry when my partner or my child or my parent passed away. What is that telling me? And like you said, it's so individual. [Speaker 1] (51:35 - 52:21) Yes. Brother, 110%. I absolutely agree with that on such a high level. And yeah, well, I haven't experienced a father passing, man. So, you know, or dad passing. So, I can only imagine what that must be like as well. Because I think between any father and son, there is a bond, there's a connection there. And so, while it might have seemed more- because you said it was your dad, right? That was correct. My father, yeah. Yeah, your father, yeah. Thank you. Like, I guess while you said it was maybe to be expected given his age and everything else, it's still, well, that's dad, you know? [Speaker 2] (52:21 - 53:30) The finality of death is something that I think every individual has to deal with in their own way. Because I can get caught up with my day-to-day, you know, they were living in New Jersey part of the year, Greece the rest of the year, and I'm here in California living my life. But then there's that like, if I see a picture, again, I'm never gonna hug my dad again. Yes. When I hug him, his scruff, you know, that old Greek scruff, it's never gonna like brush against my skin. His smell, I'm never gonna smell that in reality. Now I have it in my memories and all that. So, I think that's the thing that like parts of us are really impacted by. And I'm on the same page as you. I have this part of me that also aligns with like, what is the lesson? What is the greater purpose of this all? What can I learn from it? How can I grow from it? What do I want to do moving forward if I choose to be a father, you know? How do I want to take what I learned from my dad and at the same time, like, evolve beyond that, to take the good and then maybe leave the rest and then continue the legacy in a different way and also honor his legacy. [Speaker 1] (53:31 - 53:56) So, you know... Yes, absolutely. And honoring his legacy, that's what it's about. That's just such a phenomenal energy to move forward with because for what it's worth, you're awesome. I just want to say like, I'm certain your dad is so proud of you as a son. Like, he must look at you and be like, man, yeah, that's- I'm proud of that guy. [Speaker 2] (53:57 - 54:37) To be honest, man, like, I think he was, but like, I didn't take a more straight and narrow path. And I think there was a little bit of a point in contention in my life when I was younger and wanted his validation in a certain way but didn't get it. And then I realized like, it's okay, he's doing- he's being him, you know, a 93-year-old Greek man who, you know, went up to second grade, six years old and started working at six years old. And then it's all about like, practicality and work and- I get it. I chose a more alternative path. But I think deep down, he knew that like, the decisions that I've made in my life have led me to a good place, you know. [Speaker 1] (54:37 - 54:38) 100% brother. [Speaker 2] (54:38 - 54:40) I'm grateful for that. So, thank you. [Speaker 1] (54:41 - 55:05) And like, the fact that you have thought for yourself and you are doing what's true to you, I think that- I think it's kind of like a parent's role to be a little bit pragmatic with kids and be like, this is probably a solid path. Like, this is kind of- Yeah. Tried and tested a little bit. And so, we'll offer that. But then there's probably a part of us is always like, I hope you follow your heart as well. Like, hope you just freaking do everything I didn't do and, you know. [Speaker 2] (55:05 - 56:01) For sure. And my dad and I, we're both Gemini's. We have a similarity, you know, there's an essence to us that's very similar that I knew about. But it's turned into a legacy. Like, I'm so grateful Joel and I created this platform because, you know, after my father passed and obviously a little bit after Joel and his wife had- and their family had that experience, like, we were able to talk about it. Yes. You know, we were able to talk about life. We were able to talk about death. We were able to talk about our experiences. And like, I feel proud that, you know, more people can know my dad's story, you know. And we're- I mean, there's that element that's, I think, powerful to be able to share that and have people relate to it in their own way or- and I think that's what we do. It's like, hey, listen, we're here. We have Zoom. We have a screen. We're having these conversations. We want to keep it real. We're here for the truth on many different levels. And that's it. See how people receive it. [Speaker 1] (56:03 - 58:09) I love that, brother. I love that. And if I might add to the conversation, you know, speaking of hearing- being here for the truth, I think it's also important to acknowledge the fact- and I learned this- I'm a Demartini method facilitator. Demartini, I know you've had Demartini on the show. I've studied a lot of his work. I do find huge value in his work. And he speaks about, with death, that the opposite of grief is relief. And so, this is quite an interesting thing to grasp. So, I think that every single one of us, if we're being 100% truthful, would say that even the people we love the most, there's little things they do that tick us off. We're like, ah, you know, a little bit. Like, it doesn't matter how much work we do. We've always got those little things where it's a bit like, you know, just different ways of doing things, if we're really honest. And people resist this because they're not being honest, by the way. And then they get honest, and then there's a beautiful realisation that happens. So, I think it's important, if you look at those little things that might kind of grind your gears a little bit, or just, you know, points of difference there, and you actually allow yourself to feel a bit of relief. And again, this is why I'm mindful who I share this perspective with, because people who haven't done any work, they'll be like, oh, that's unloving, or that's this or that or the other thing. But the truth is, you hear most people in conversation, and quite honestly, they complain about other people. Like, you hear partners and they're, you know, someone's out with their girlfriends or having a boys' night, they're like saying things like, oh, you know, they did this thing, I come with this argument, and I don't know what I did. And like, it happens in real interaction. And then so, when someone passes actually being honest, what were the things about that individual that did tick me off? And then I'm grateful that I won't necessarily experience as well. And that's not not loving them, it's actually loving them in the entire experience. [Speaker 2] (58:09 - 1:00:27) Yeah. Well, again, I think we're talking about, again, like, we have different parts of us that feel different things. Like, I definitely know that there's a part of me that's completely relieved. This part is relieved that my dad is on to the next, that next path, you know, because I was like, he lived a full life. This part of me is like, he lived a full life, you know, he was starting to be a little bit more curmudgeony. And like, I didn't want him to cause any more problems or stress for my mother, you know? And I just like, thank you for everything you taught me and learned. But it's like, there is that part. It's like, okay, time to move on. I'm living my life. I don't, you know, so that part of me is there. It's like, come on. And even with my mom, like my mom was his caretaker for the last, you know, few months. He didn't really need it. But once he left, once he sold his business, he was home with my mom. And so the two of them are living together in the same home for years. And it used to be my dad was working, my mom took care of the house. And so that caused its own like, you know, things that are going to be, you know, they're both strong personalities, you know? And I think the last couple of years, it was like, I can tell the weight that my mom was carrying and all the conversations, like she would talk to me and it was always like this heaviness and the things she was navigating. And then of course, when my dad passed away, it was hard and she was broken. But there were a lot of conversations when I talked to her, there was a lightness to her. Now she wouldn't admit the relief part of her old school and she hasn't done this level of personal development or introspective work, but I saw it and other people saw it. Because you're in that position and you're like, wait, how is he going to pass? How long was this going to go on? Is he going to suffer? Is he going to just like lose his wits? You know, fortunately, my dad didn't suffer long, was pretty cognitively healthy until the moment. I've shared the story before, I won't get into it. And like, so then it ends and it's like to an individual, they're probably like, oh, whatever I was imagining those worst possibilities of it being worse and more of a burden, it's over. And so, there has to be that like, again, an aspect of it, not the whole being of a person. Yeah, because then that's lopsided the other way. [Speaker 4] (1:00:28 - 1:00:28) Yeah, yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:00:28 - 1:05:05) But it's going to breed its own nastiness. That's right. And to deny it's there is lopsided as well. And again, I can only speak in my personal experience is that when we first discovered that we were pregnant, the original time, which was actually yesterday to the year, it was August 7th. Oh, my goodness, man. Yeah. Another synchronicity. Another synchronicity, man. Wow. It was completely unexpected. By all means, we just got to Mexico. I was just finally figuring out how to be a dad of two children and felt like I was getting my groove and figuring it out. And the moment I found out, I can't deny that there was a part of me that was like, oh, shit. You know, like the new resources that I'm going to have to bring in the new energy that is going to be required to handle this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then again, in all the grief and in all the intensity and in all the loss, we found out, I'm not going to deny that there was a part of me that was like, as well, you know, that was a little bit like that, you know, that pressure isn't presence anymore. It's not there. You know, just embodying this here for the truth principle. Yeah. And then when we found out we were pregnant again, it was completely different. There was none of that. I'm not ready. I'm not prepared. Like the expansion had taken place and it was like, fuck yes. You know, I'm ready. I feel expanded. I feel that we're ready. And just again, the way that everything happens within this perfection is just so present. Rather. Joel, I want to acknowledge the fact that you're honest enough to say that, man, because that for a lot of people is their true experience, but they don't admit it. Like, oh, I felt a bit of a holy shit moment when I first found out. And that doesn't mean anything's wrong or you're not doing anything right or you're any less of a human. It's just your true experience. Like it was like, oh, man, you've got two kids. You've just moved like legitimate, you know, responsibilities, things like that. Like walking this path is choosing to be completely aware of our inner experience or as aware as we can be. And that requires us to be honest with what we're fully experiencing. And I mean, for me to deny that because of some collective moral superimposed code that I shouldn't be feeling that way. And then what I'm going to create some kind of contradiction within myself, right? Slash myself a thousand times or a part of me having a certain experience like, no, I'm not going to do that. That's not what we're about. And I don't believe that's the path towards truth, wholeness and a life well lived. A hundred percent, brother. Wow, mate. Thank you both. Both of you for sharing your honest experiences with that as well, because again, my younger sister, she was under a lot of care and a lot of support. And I could see my sister, like I knew her essence because I grew up with this little girl. This is the girl like I would go and build cubby houses with and play in the mud with like, and I was always that annoying brother. I was very creative. I was putting circuses on. She was always like my little support who was there with me all the way through childhood. And so, I love her and honour her and I just celebrate her and I have nothing but gratitude for those moments we had. But then I saw her grow up and go through life and develop these perspectives that seem to become cages for her and just like her detach from that true essence of who she was. And there was almost like a part of me that was grieving when I saw her in person because I was like, where are you, Bea? Like, where's the true you gone? And of course, I couldn't say that to her. But in her passing, I feel like she has been liberated. And as I said, I now have- I was out there on my deck this morning watching the sunrise just connected to her and my brother. And that was- again, it could all be in my head, but it's a reality that feels very expansive and- What do you think it is about the sunrise? [Speaker 2] (1:05:06 - 1:05:12) Because that's how it was with my dad when I went to see the sunrise. I felt like I finally got to connect with him. [Speaker 1] (1:05:12 - 1:05:56) It's the archetypal representation of birth. And the sunset is the archetypal representation of death. And death and birth are these things that were just completely inseparable. With every death, there is a birth. There's an expansion. And with every birth, there is a death. In my instance, it's the death of the little boy who thinks he doesn't have as much responsibility and he can just go around willy-nilly, do what he wants. There's not that many consequences, right? And for the mother, it's the same thing. So, yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, brother. Actually, you're awesome. I still gotta get you to share, brother, because you were saying something about your dad. I'd love to hear that. [Speaker 2] (1:05:56 - 1:07:28) Yeah, no. Well, I was just going to say like, with everything that had been going on, I had been taking multiple trips back and forth to New Jersey from California when my dad was in the hospital. Two hospital visits for like four days each, and then he passed away, and then I spent a lot of time with my mom a few weeks there, and then I came back and had to go back. But then I think the first trip back from after the funeral, I woke up for the sunrise, and I went for a walk to a beautiful place to watch the sunrise. And I got overwhelmed with, I felt like I could finally let myself experience the fullness of grief. Because there was this element of, or a certain kind of grief. There was this element of, hey, I know myself, I know my connection to vulnerability and pain, and I'll have my time. But my intention was, I'm going to be home with my mom, and I'm going to be a rock and handle what I need to handle around everything so she can feel nurtured and taken care of and not to have any extra stress. But like, waking up that morning and going for that walk and seeing that sunrise was something that just, I felt his presence there, and I don't know how to explain it. And it was just like, minutes of just weeping. And it was like, I was so grateful for it. I was like, it wasn't like, oh, this shouldn't be happening. Like, I just was like, surrendered to this. And then, okay, then it's like, let's walk back home. Let's hike back home. Yeah. You know what? You know what? [Speaker 1] (1:07:28 - 1:08:38) Something else that just came up for me in relation to the sunrise is, you know, these archetypal stories, even within religion. Like, they're living things within our psyche. And obviously, this isn't a Christian podcast by any means whatsoever. But I think about the story of Jesus, and I think about the He is Risen concept, which ultimately, from an astrotheological perspective, is about the sun anyway, in my point of view. And it's like, someone dies, and you see the sunrise. And maybe symbologically, within one's psyche, it's been like, okay, there He is. He's being taken to the next transition, or the next phase, or whatever it might be. A thousand percent. Yes. Yeah. And that's built into our thinking. And so, you're awesome. Thank you for sharing your experience as well, brother. I resonate with that a lot. All of these parts, I think, have just been ingrained in us as humans. And that's one of the great things that's been ingrained in us. It could also be that, I guess, when we wake up in the morning, there's less static, for want of a better term. And so, maybe we are more connected to the truth, and more connected to our heart. [Speaker 2] (1:08:38 - 1:08:44) And the peace and the quiet in nature that allows the space for this stuff to come up. [Speaker 1] (1:08:44 - 1:10:13) For the true experience to emerge. There's less energy in the field. There's even less conscious minds. Most minds are asleep at that point in time. And it's even in those moments, personally, where I feel I've got a greater connection through the divine. Like, my deepest conversations with God and with the divine happen during those moments as well. And I feel like you're right. There's less static in the field. I love that. I remember my mom would teach me as a kid that, like, to always wake up early. And she used to tell me this. I can't quite remember the story, but it was this story of, you would wake up early in the morning and you would find wisdom. And she would talk about wisdom as this beautiful woman who would be waiting for you, or sitting on a rock, or sitting by a stream, or something. As a young boy, I was pretty keen to find a beautiful woman. So, I started waking up early. Legitimately, she would say about this beautiful woman, and she's like, it's wisdom. And you'll find and connect with wisdom. And that stuck with me. It's such a beautiful teacher. I don't know where she got that from, or what that's about. It might be some biblical thing. My parents are very much so in the Catholic religion. But she would teach me about that, and I really like that. I do want to touch on another point with this as well. Yeah. Just quickly, just to emphasize that. There's a beautiful Rumi quote which ties this all in, which I love. And he says, the breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you. Do not go back to sleep. [Speaker 2] (1:10:14 - 1:10:29) Wow. Yeah. Well, also too, based on what you were saying, Sophia is the Greek word for goddess. I mean, for wisdom. Yeah. And so, the goddess Sophia represents that. So, I don't know if you were out searching for the goddess Sophia, you know? That's quite possible, brother. [Speaker 1] (1:10:29 - 1:15:16) I don't know who it was, but it was quite a goddess-like character that my mom depicted through her explanation. So, that's quite possibly. My mom used to love learning about history. So, I'd say that's quite possibly trickled in there. That's super cool. So, the other interesting thing is when someone passes, because I work with a lot of clients with actually developing perspectives around death. And one of the things is, it's very interesting, because when someone passes and you perceive that individual to have certain traits and behavioural characteristics and things like that, all of a sudden you think, oh, all of that's gone. And that creates a void. But if you can actually ask yourself, who else is replacing that? Who's replacing what I'm perceiving to be gone? Like, where am I now experiencing that in another form? So, this is quite interesting to work with and play with. And it takes some work, but if you actually look, what tends to happen is it changes form. So, Joel, for you, I heard that you said it with your wife getting pregnant so soon. So, that seemed to happen. But even, like, I've seen cases where an individual has had such a sadness because they saw their child be born, stillborn, and they're like, the little feet weren't moving. But then they looked a little bit deeper into the moment in time, and what they found is there were nurses and doctors running around, there were feet moving everywhere. Where they found, where they believed that there was one thing that shouldn't have been that way or wasn't extreme, they would find the contrast to it. So, that's even a deeper idea around the passing of someone. It's like, where did it get replaced? Who replaced it? So, for example, you'll see someone who has like a larrikin uncle who passes and everyone's sad, but then someone cracks this crazy joke at the funeral because that's what the uncle would have done. And then the larrikin is reborn. So, it's quite interesting if you go even deeper, you will find this perfection where it just transforms. Energy's not created or destroyed, you know. Exactly. Yeah, a thousand percent. So, if I can ask you in your personal experience, how did you find, you know, these energies come back for you? So good. So, when I found my brother's body, I was very in tune to the fact how fast the police were moving and how that was all going on. Where he had no voice, there were voices pouring in across the radio. And I could go on and on about these different references I made in my brain. Where there was no communication from him, I was now communicating to all my family, calling them up. Where his hands were still, I saw, again, the police hands moving fast, reacting or responding to the incident. And where I saw a brother who was no longer there to kind of hold or hug, Gus was, he didn't come in on the main scene, I made sure he didn't, but he was there and I was holding and hugging him. And so, there was a connection of brothers. And so, and this is why I might be quite balanced in what I do because I can truly see that the higher part of my brother moved on, but the physical just continued, if that makes sense. Nash, man, I just want to say that I'm super glad that you exist. I'm super glad that you were born and that you live and that you are who you are and you have the heart and the energy that you have because I just think you're just a blessing of a man and a human being, bro. And so, thank you. Thank you, brother. Thank you, brother. Well, man, right back at you. You're seeing others what you're seeing yourself, I believe. So, anything you're seeing in me, man, is because it exists within you. And the same with you, Erosimus. So, thank you guys. I greatly appreciate you and your hearts and just how you continue to share conversations like this. Like, this isn't necessarily a popular conversation where you're talking about death, but it's a necessary conversation. And so, thank you guys for the way you continue to show up because it takes work. It takes a lot to do what you guys do. Thanks, man. [Speaker 2] (1:15:16 - 1:15:58) I appreciate that. And these are the kinds of the conversations that I think our audience really, really loved. You know, and we're raw, real. I mean, it's cool we can talk about, give information and have people learn. But like, yeah, this is information, but it's held in this heart and soul and depth. It's different. It's real personal experience. And the three of us sharing our stories, obviously, you sharing everything you've gone through. I don't know. I love these kinds of episodes when we do them, when it's like three of us that can get real and connect and hold space for one another. And especially three men, too. I mean, come on. [Speaker 1] (1:15:58 - 1:15:58) A hundred percent. [Speaker 2] (1:15:59 - 1:16:00) Yes. [Speaker 1] (1:16:01 - 1:17:08) Well, brother, I love that your audience and it speaks to the caliber of your amazing audience as well. The fact that they can receive a conversation like this and sit through it. I just want to say like a key component of the world record was turning the mess into the mission. That's another thing I believe in. Like if there's a mess in your life, then you can either complain about it and say it shouldn't be like this, or you can go to work like doing some resolution work. And so that was a key component. Turn the mess into the mission. And that was what I wanted to demonstrate through what I do. I didn't need to do a world record. For me, my ego didn't need that. I was good, you know, like whatever. But it was like people will pay attention. This will hopefully show people that it is possible to go through something intense and come out the other side stronger. And that was one of the key reasons I wanted to do that. And that's how I think I found another gear within myself. How was your chest feeling after 6,000 push-ups? [Speaker 4] (1:17:08 - 1:17:08) Bro, you took my question. [Speaker 1] (1:17:10 - 1:17:16) Well, you can go. I don't know if you can still see on my Instagram, but I was doing chin-ups the next day. So I was okay. [Speaker 2] (1:17:17 - 1:17:38) The whole time I'm thinking, what's his recovery like? What's going on? Yeah. Well, it was a year of push-ups and I'm like, man, my chest, I feel like jelly, let alone he's like, yeah, I did over 6,000, 24 hours straight. You're not sleeping, right? You weren't like, hey, I'm going to take a 20-minute nap and then come back to this. [Speaker 1] (1:17:38 - 1:18:09) Nah, no napping. No napping. There was a little kind of like going and sneaking off and having a hot shower to relieve the muscle tension. Because yeah, the big thing for me, I've been in construction for years. So my elbows, I had to rehabilitate them 110%. I was a little concerned my elbows and my wrists would blow out. But again, it was- I've shared with people, it was one of the most spiritual experiences I've ever had. Just even the people who came on to- because we had to have counters and judges and we have to record it all, like it was very- you have to do it by the book. [Speaker 2] (1:18:10 - 1:18:24) What's that process like? Like, do you just reach out to worldrecords.com and go, hey, I want to do this thing and you need to send a team. Like, do you create the team? Do they have a team that come out? Well, yeah, it's a great question. [Speaker 1] (1:18:24 - 1:19:22) So you reach out to the world record, like Guinness is one of the world record things. And you submit an idea to them or a proposal and then they'll get back to you within 12 very long weeks. You can speed it up if you're willing to pay a lot of money. But otherwise, they'll get back to you in their own sweet time and they do. And then they'll either approve it or reject it. They're very kind of black or white. There's no sort of in-between with them. But then because I found a niche and again, that was strange that I found a niche, like a push up is a pretty common exercise, but just with a T-rotate, the fact that no one in history has done that, I was kind of amazed. Yeah. And the interesting thing was, it was all about pushing up from rock bottom. This is sort of the metaphor, push up from rock bottom, checking in with your heart, like being courageous if you're not doing well inside and reaching out. Like that was kind of how I got the message going on, which is kind of behind me there. [Speaker 2] (1:19:22 - 1:19:26) And it's a heart opener too. You're like opening up the heart. A thousand percent. [Speaker 1] (1:19:27 - 1:20:06) Yeah. But yeah, so you reach out to them, you submit an idea and they'll let you know what the current record is. I actually proposed 4,000 because for me, that was a little bit of a stretch. I was like, yeah, that would be- I've never done that many, so that would be a decent stretch. I've done 3,700. 4,000, I haven't done that much. Let me stretch myself, guys. Yeah, man. No, unfortunately I hadn't done 3,700. I'd completed half the record in six hours before. I'd done about 2,000 each arm in six hours. I had done that because that was the longest- Was that part of the training? [Speaker 2] (1:20:06 - 1:20:13) You were like, okay, I need to prepare for this. You weren't like, hey, I'm just going to do the pushups and then just show up and do it. You actually done thousands before. [Speaker 1] (1:20:13 - 1:21:58) I did thousands. I pivoted my entire training schedule. I changed my body composition. I did relentless physio. I increased my endurance. I had a science. I'm a breathwork coach as well, so I focused on really building up my carbon dioxide tolerance, increasing red blood in my body, or my red blood carrying ability, oxygen carrying ability. That's probably the right terminology. I get quite scientific with this stuff. I actually really love nerding out on that. Also, just practicing with visualization and hypnosis and actually training my brain to perform the event in advance. That was all part of the experience as well, in addition to the physical component. The world record process is you reach out to them if they're good to go, they'll send you some very strict guidelines. You can hire one of their consultants to fly out and assess the whole thing. You'll pay about 20 grand for that, or you can put your whole team together yourself. Your team needs to be someone who's got experience counting numbers and also a fitness industry professional. They need to rotate every four hours. They need to sign stat decks. They need to say what they witnessed. All the wording needs to be different. It's full on, man. It's a full freaking- That was more exhausting than doing the freaking push-ups, to be honest with you, organising all the paperwork and all the cameras. Yeah. You need to record it from two different angles. But yeah, we got it done. But I still haven't received the piece of paper. They could still come back to me and be like, no, you suck. Go away. [Speaker 2] (1:21:58 - 1:22:02) Oh, whatever. You did it. You did it. And that's amazing. [Speaker 1] (1:22:02 - 1:22:02) Yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:22:02 - 1:22:42) I had to look something up real quickly because I have a proposal for Joel that the current world record for the longest podcast is held by a Dutch team that recorded a 153-hour continuous podcast during Dutch Media Week in October 2022. That's according to AI. Joel, I think we need to do a continuous 154-hour podcast. They didn't sleep for five, six days. Whatever that is. Yeah. Let's do it, bro. I'm ready to go. I think you should do it right before your wife gives birth. I think it'll be the perfect timing. [Speaker 1] (1:22:44 - 1:22:49) Bro, I'm all about resilience training. I like that, man. I'm open to it. Mike, Nash, will you coach us? [Speaker 2] (1:22:50 - 1:23:05) Yeah, sure. I wonder if we could do it where it was like, when I was at Anarchapulco, they had a podcast set up- Oh, guests rotate. And people just keep coming in. And so you and I are there. Bro, I'm down. People just keep coming in and we just have this conversation. [Speaker 1] (1:23:05 - 1:23:11) Guys, guys, I think that you've said it on me. You're recording this, aren't you? I'm kind of down, bro. [Speaker 2] (1:23:12 - 1:23:13) I am too, dude. [Speaker 1] (1:23:14 - 1:23:24) The sleep is the hardest part of that. Yeah, that would be. But I think that the conversation would be so hilarious at some points because you'd be so scared. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Speaker 2] (1:23:24 - 1:23:35) Exactly. Can you imagine like 120 hours in, how delirious I'm going to be and whatever the hell is going to come out of my mouth? That's going to be like gold, I think. [Speaker 1] (1:23:36 - 1:23:55) Oh, man. I think I'd sit there and watch all 150 hours. That would be so funny. You'd need to upgrade your Zoom capacity. That would be the only tip. I think we'd do a live in person. We'd set it up, do a live in person, get guests or have the guests organize. The people come and go across the five days. I love that. [Speaker 2] (1:23:55 - 1:24:23) We'd need a team of organization for like 153 hours worth of guests that are coming in, like flying in. I mean, you live in Mexico. I live in the Los Angeles areas. We have to find like a neutral place and then come in. I'm not trying to make this a $50,000 endeavor where we're flying people. Hey, do you want to just fly in? Imagine the file size of that episode. Oh, dude. Imagine we sent it to Ryan and we're like, you need to edit this whole thing, bro. [Speaker 1] (1:24:27 - 1:24:39) Oh, that would be hilarious. I would love to see that, guys. That would be... Someone's got to hold the record. Why not you? That's what I say. Yeah. And there's two of you as well. Technically, I'm sure one of you could take a break and the other one jump in and sort of do it. [Speaker 2] (1:24:39 - 1:24:45) I wonder how that would work from a legal standpoint. Can I take a little like... Everyone gets to see me nap. [Speaker 1] (1:24:45 - 1:24:53) Someone would have to be talking at all times. I really like this. It makes sense because Erasmus is a mess, so might as well turn it into a mission. There we go. [Speaker 2] (1:24:54 - 1:25:02) That's it. What would we be promoting besides that? Like, you know, you have like a... [Speaker 4] (1:25:02 - 1:25:02) Truth. Truth, brother. [Speaker 2] (1:25:03 - 1:25:14) Yeah, sure, sure. We'd have like the most... With our like network of people and friends and colleagues and previous guests, we'd have a wild... You would have a wild... Conversations. [Speaker 1] (1:25:14 - 1:25:25) That could be something really epic. Like you could do a lot with that. You could do a lot. Joel, you could get up and do some rapping as part of it. And Erasmus, like you sing. You play the guitar, don't you, man? [Speaker 2] (1:25:26 - 1:25:35) I don't play guitar. No, no. But that's another... That's the other Erasmus. You could do like a live concert too. What did you say? That's the other Erasmus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Speaker 1] (1:25:35 - 1:25:40) Maybe that could be part of the like 150 hours. You could learn to play the guitar in 150 hours. [Speaker 2] (1:25:40 - 1:25:47) Like you could get really good and start the future. I have a piano that I played a little bit that I want to learn how to play even more. So, I'll just sit there going... Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring. [Speaker 1] (1:25:47 - 1:25:54) Yeah. Because I imagine like you're watching the live stream of how many viewers are watching it all dip. Like exactly at that point where you started playing piano. [Speaker 2] (1:25:57 - 1:25:58) Everyone's like, it's time for a nap. [Speaker 1] (1:25:59 - 1:26:02) That's so good. I love it. Well, maybe we plan to see. [Speaker 2] (1:26:03 - 1:26:22) Yeah. The previous record before that was 53.1 hours set in 2020. Oh, that's weak. We can get them to at least, sure. Oh, yeah. You guys crush it. I got to look more into this. I'm curious what the process was like. A Dutch team. So, like if it's just two of us. [Speaker 1] (1:26:24 - 1:26:47) There might be a separate record for like just two people. We could create our own one. Yeah. I'd just go look at it on YouTube because most people share their records on YouTube. So, just go like say longest world record on YouTube and see what comes up. Nash, what if we've already started? Well, what if we don't end this podcast and the three of us just keep going right now? [Speaker 2] (1:26:48 - 1:26:58) Imagine we just did 154 hours with just you, Nash, just the three of us. You can just gather a second world record and we can raise more awareness for this, man. Look at that. [Speaker 1] (1:26:59 - 1:27:09) Guys, if you're listening right now, strap yourselves in. That would be a wild ride. Like I'd just be here like reading books to you. I think I'd just be, I'd run out of ideas, man. [Speaker 2] (1:27:10 - 1:27:20) Oh, check this out. The Dutch team that set the world record for the longest podcast lasting 153 hours was composed of multiple broadcasters and podcasters. Specifically, it involved five different podcasts. [Speaker 4] (1:27:21 - 1:27:21) True that. [Speaker 2] (1:27:21 - 1:27:27) Lut Verde, Dit Wat De Radio, Podvast, Hanpico75, and Mond. They're napping. [Speaker 1] (1:27:28 - 1:27:32) They're taking showers. There's got to be a niche for it. There's got to be a niche for it. [Speaker 2] (1:27:33 - 1:27:38) I'm going straight five days by my, just me, bro. Fuck this team. Me and Joel, let's go. [Speaker 1] (1:27:38 - 1:27:39) No doubt. [Speaker 2] (1:27:39 - 1:27:41) Here for the truth. Here for no sleep. [Speaker 1] (1:27:41 - 1:27:51) I love it. I love it. Well, maybe it's only like if there's two of you, you could probably do like a 12-hour podcast and that would probably be a record in itself. You know what I'm saying? Maybe. Maybe. [Speaker 2] (1:27:51 - 1:27:52) That's weak, bro. Come on. [Speaker 1] (1:27:53 - 1:27:56) I'm sure there's live streams that have been longer than 12 hours. [Speaker 2] (1:27:56 - 1:28:05) I mean, we've done three-hour podcasts with Ralph Ellis and I've been a little tired after those, but we'd have to maybe do a few more with him just to get the, you know, build up some more tolerance. [Speaker 1] (1:28:06 - 1:31:26) Cool. I love it. Nashman, thank you so much, bro. I've absolutely loved this conversation. I love you, obviously. Appreciate you being here. Honor your journey, everything you've been through. I've got no doubt, bro, our audience has received so much value from this. Yeah. Gentlemen, I love you too. Thank you. Brothers from other mothers, just nothing but gratitude for you guys. And yeah, thank you for having me on again, because it means a lot. And again, I want to honor my brother and sister and Joel, honor the passing of your little one and your Osmos, your dad, because, you know, all of these individuals have really added a depth to this conversation. Certainly my siblings are the reason we are reconnecting in this conversation and it's going to go on to have impact. So this is what I'm talking about. Like, yeah, it continues to flow on. So yeah, let's honor all those who have gone before us and who will come after us by living well. Yeah. How can people let it inspire you to take nothing for granted as well? You know, like we mentioned, how does it motivate you to lead your life from here on out? You tapped into it before, but you know, the philosophy of memento mori, like one day you will pass. What does that mean for how you live now? What does that mean for the intention that you bring to each moment? What does that mean for when you get home to your wife, your kids, your husband, whatever it might be? And, you know, that is great work in and of itself, for sure. And yeah, man, like your Osmos was saying, Nash, where would you like to direct our audience? How can they support? And yeah, let us know. Thank you. Thank you, guys. So just at CoachNashMackie on Instagram. My website isn't CrashHot. I'll share with you. I actually learned from someone. I used to teach people how to build fancy websites and I learned from someone recently to like have a crappy website and the people who are really committed will find a way through and look beyond the crappy website. Hopefully my website is not that crappy, but you can find me at NashMackie.com as well. If you want to go check out my crappy website or just at CoachNashMackie on Instagram. But thank you so much, gentlemen. And can I just share something to sort of close this off? Is interesting when someone passes, people get up, they sell this really kind, thoughtful stuff about whoever's passed for about 20 minutes, you know, eulogy. And what I would encourage anyone to do is think about people around you who, you know, if they passed, you could very well be called on to do the eulogy and don't wait until they pass to say those things. Like, go say them now, go tell them how much you appreciate them, how you love them, those moments, how much you treasure them. That would be what I would encourage everyone listening to this to do. Thank you, bro. Yeah. Thank you, man. Guys, welcome. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. News and I'm in a DeLorean fast forward in evolution.