Joel Schafer The Toltec Path of Shamanic Dreaming

Joel R 00:00:02.560 - 00:00:41.060 Joel Schaefer is a personal empowerment mentor and shamanic dreaming arts teacher. Through online courses, one on one mentoring and in person workshops, Droll trains people in a highly effective way to reclaim vital energy and attention. Utilizing the Toltec knowledge base. These are powerful non linear redistribution techniques that guide and support students in discovering clear purpose, increasing awareness, getting grounded, reclaiming focus and accessing strong intents. Joel is also an excellent listener and mirror, offering practical but magical solutions to life's challenges. Joel, welcome to Here for the Truth. Joel S 00:00:41.060 - 00:00:44.380 Man, oh man, so good to be here. Thanks for having me guys. Joel R 00:00:44.540 - 00:01:08.980 Oh, absolute pleasure. First off, I know I've said that to you before, but great name. Obviously your assimilation was quite upset at me a few days ago because I didn't honor him on his name day, which was October 20th. I'm like, Bro, it's just a name day, who cares? And then I ended up, I ended up googling our name day in the Greek Orthodox tradition. And it was one day before his. So we're October 19th and he's the prophet Joel. Yerasimos 00:01:08.980 - 00:01:09.460 Yeah. Joel R 00:01:09.860 - 00:01:12.660 So anyway man, I just want to say happy name day for like a week and a half ago. Joel S 00:01:13.060 - 00:01:17.140 Cool, thank you. That's funny, Joel. Joel R 00:01:17.380 - 00:01:33.380 One way we always like to dive deep, especially with first time guests, is we really just want to explore in depth, like your personal hero's journey. Like obviously it's a very intriguing, interesting and what seems like a wild ride. So like, where do we begin? We're really happy to spend as much time here as we need to. Yerasimos 00:01:34.020 - 00:01:34.780 Cool. Yeah. Joel S 00:01:34.780 - 00:01:50.810 Thank you. Yeah, I was, you know, my cousin really influenced me at a young age. He was older than me and was breaking all the rules at like 15 and I was 13 and he was getting away with it, you know, it was like really cool to see someone kind of think for themselves. Joel R 00:01:53.210 - 00:01:53.610 Kind of. Joel S 00:01:53.610 - 00:02:51.040 Come out of the indoctrination pretty early. And so I, I gravitated to some pretty wild people at a young age. And at 13 I took LSD for the first time. I found some older dudes that were really pushing it with lsd, trying to figure out what was possible. And I jumped in and went on some really intense adventures. Really powerful people, very telepathic, very gifted with a lot of trauma stuff that was showing up. And I was like a babysitter for these older, like more schizophrenic trippers. I would keep them out of jail and they keep me entertained. It was just like a lot of adventures through Seattle. We were selling, you know, psilocybin a lot in, in Seattle area during the rave scene. I was hanging out at Evergreen State College. I was in high school, but I was bringing like pounds of mushrooms to the college kids. Joel R 00:02:51.120 - 00:02:52.880 Yeah, what, what time period is this? Joel S 00:02:54.080 - 00:02:55.920 Early 90s, like 93. Joel R 00:02:56.320 - 00:02:56.800 Cool. Joel S 00:02:57.440 - 00:05:49.450 Yeah. Through 99 is when I was in Seattle. So from 13 to 16, it was really intense. 16 I met a shaman and I got sober and celibate. So it was just like total flip. And then we were spending most of our times in the. In the forest. We were doing parkour before it was called parkour. This guy was like a fearless pro skater and pro BMX guy. So he was just always pushing us physically and he was teaching us muiti kickboxing in the woods. So it's sparring all day long, jumping out of trees, learning all these ninja roles, just getting saturated in the woods. Like I. People actually could tell that we lived in the woods. They were like, whoa, you guys are different. You know, like we just were there all the time. We'd still go on adventures and go to raves and do things, but for the most part it was just really private. I was really popular and I walked away from all that social power to be with this shaman. He basically told me, you can't have too many attachments, you can't be tied to all these people. You're going to have to go inward. He taught me the art of gazing, which is a way of looking at the world. And without substances, you can let go of the physicality and it starts to rotate and move. It's all fractals. And those fractals can reassemble and you can be looking at two layers of the onion at the same time. So I spend a lot of time staring at trees, and then they're no longer trees. After a while. I'm looking at something, a shape shifting experience. And I try to hang out there as long as I can, as often as I can. And then I teach these movements that I learned from that same system. So this all comes from Carlos Castaneda, the Toltec teachings that come out of that lineage. You know, people can say whatever they want about him, but if you read the books and practice the disciplines inside of them, they're absolutely will expedite your perceptual experience quickly. And their point is that, you know, we don't want to be relying on power plants like mushrooms and things in order to reach these states. These are like states of perception we inherited, but we were conditioned to not receive them. So these movements that, that I learned are called magical Passes. And I started doing them, you know, right away at 16. And then I've been doing them my whole life since. But I had to leave that first shaman because he developed real, real delusions of grandeur. You know, the kind of the Neo thing where he thought he was the One. And I get why he was doing things that I've yet to see anyone else do to this day. So it's hard to not get into those realms of confidence when you can't relate to anyone around you. So I feel for him. Joel R 00:05:49.610 - 00:05:51.690 What, what, what are some of those things? Yeah. Yerasimos 00:05:51.690 - 00:05:53.290 Can you explain maybe a few of those things? Joel S 00:05:54.330 - 00:06:32.990 Yeah. I mean, he. He was perceiving himself to be capable of healing humanity on his own. Like, that he had the keys that he was needed, you know, and my teachers would always say, we're. Everyone can be replaced. Spirit always has a backup plan. It's just an honor to be of service. But when you start thinking that you are the glue that keeps the whole world together or that if something happens to you, that it'll affect the whole system. Right. That's these places that some people end up going where they're like the prophet. Joel R 00:06:33.230 - 00:06:40.910 Yeah, yeah. And I meant, like, what are some of the things that you saw him do that you've never seen anyone else do? Like, in terms of what you want, you understanding his grandeur now. You're good. Joel S 00:06:41.790 - 00:07:53.440 Yeah. Like, just the full commitment physically to, like, the parkour stuff. I. I watched him fall like 60ft and just get up and run, run it off. Like he. His martial arts stuff, his ability to take hits and falls and not have it affect him physically and then repair his body like within a week when it should take months, even if it did manifest in an injury, just the tenacity, the fearlessness around. And I think there was a desperation behind it. Like he had to achieve something in this lifetime and maybe he was in some sort of punishment, but it was just constant. I've never seen anyone so driven to succeed. I have seen it in, like, super male, disciplined arenas. But this was in the realm of the more feminine, which is becoming lucid in dream time. So he could tell me things about my past that I had forgotten about that nobody could have known. Because he could see into my story. He could anticipate events that were going to happen to me in very short periods of time, you know, and prep me for. For meeting someone that next day. And it was just so specific. Yerasimos 00:07:53.920 - 00:07:54.400 Wow. Joel S 00:07:55.600 - 00:08:37.740 His ability to read minds, like, it was very invasive. Like you just couldn't have a thought without it being read, which I work with some women now that do the same. And it's an intense thing to just be in the presence of really psychic people. They validate a lot of what you, you know, you, you, you get into some details. I've seen him bilocate. So he was in one area of, of this system of plants over a valley. And he told me to pay attention and watch him like a hawk. And then he was gone. And I was able to see him, you know, about 300 yards away within, within a second. You know, I don't make things up. These are real events that happen to me. Joel R 00:08:38.700 - 00:08:42.989 I appreciate you sharing, man. That's wild. Yeah. Cool. Yerasimos 00:08:43.229 - 00:09:03.949 Can I ask you, like, what was your relationship like with your parents or even if you had, you know, siblings and as you made this choice at, I think, was it 16 to go, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm done with the, this aspect of my life. And I'm going, I'm going inward and I'm going to dive into who I am and, and have different experiences. Joel S 00:09:04.989 - 00:11:10.950 Yeah, I mean, my parents started traveling a lot when I was 10 and my sister had just moved in with me. She was my half sister and happened with her home with her mom and her stepdad. She had to come live with us. So all of a sudden I have an older sibling that I didn't have really a sibling growing up. And then she started partying and it just kind of changed the whole family situation. Like, everything was just chaos. And then my parents started traveling a lot because they were. My dad just came into a lot of money and, and so I was being raised by my sister and her boyfriends from like 10 to 16 quite often. And they, they like when I was 12, her boyfriend came home at 2 in the morning, woke me up and said, I'm going to teach you how to drink. You know. So I'm like by 4 in the morning, I'm four beers in, I'm 12 years old. And so like. And then I realized I could throw parties at this mansion that I lived in because my parents were gone. So all of a sudden I'm hanging out with all these older people and I become sort of like a, you know, I was selling cannabis, mushrooms, LSD at 13 to 16. So, you know, it wasn't a healthy environment in which, in which this necessarily grew from, but my ability to sort of reset myself with the shamanic stuff. It was kind of like even though I had a really strong, beautiful, loving family, there was, I was attracted to the families that like yelled at each other and were like up in each other's. Because I had like this separate house inside of a home. So I wasn't really close with my parents and they were traveling so much, so I didn't really have a family. Which is really why people end up in cults. They gravitate toward a family. Right. So I gravitated towards a cult like experience and, and it just was kind of a setup. But I'm really lucky to found the Costa material because it kind of explains all that. Whether there's teachers or not. Those books have been really helpful for me to understand social power and power and just how these energetic things can happen. Joel R 00:11:12.310 - 00:11:19.110 Oh man. All right, so what's happening post 16 or like you, you separate from this guy or. Joel S 00:11:19.750 - 00:14:50.550 Yeah, from like 16 to 22, training with him, just hardcore every day at night, you know, it wasn't like on occasion. And then I needed, I realized I needed to get away from him at 22. And my sister had met a Native American elder in New Mexico and I was open to the idea of meeting someone that could explain some things to me. And he ended up being that person for me. So at 22 I go down to live with her and this man. And it's a huge community, people from all over the world. He's a much more gifted shaman than the one I was training with at the time. And in fact that other shaman came down to meet him as well. And this older Native American kind of flicked him like a, like a bug. He just kind of got rid of them really easily and, and that was really devastating for that guy. And it really exposed his, his ego and it was really helpful for me. But you know, this ended up being another cult. Essentially I had to leave this group as well. There was delusions of grandeur to the max, even more than with the first one. But this guy kind of had even more reason to claim his stuff because he was raised from birth by his grandfather who was a full on shaman. He was taken away from his mother at birth so that he wouldn't ever be, you know, hive minded, ever put under hypnosis by his mother because she was, you know, still under the veil. And so he was raised being taken amongst werewolves and sasquatch and things at a young age. There's all kinds of wild, energetic stuff you can explore at nighttime if you go into the desert or into the mountains without your veil, without your, your shields we call it. And that was my training was to spend a lot of time removing My shields. And then I get to this shamanic group in New Mexico and they're doing sweat lodge vision quest. It's a lot of purification work, a lot of prayer. Very traditional, but really powerful. We would all share similar home. We'd wake up and talk about our dreams and do a lot of really deep studying into conspiracies and how they were tied to, to legend. So we were studying religion, we were studying David ike in the 90s. We were like mixing shamanic world with like trying to understand how the controllers manipulate reality, tunnels and the whole thing. So it was a really powerful education. But eventually a medicine woman came into this group and was helping us with a variety of things. She was a really amazing gifted healer from El Paso, Texas. And she, one by one, sort of helped most of us get out of that, that group and realize that, you know, it was an entrapping situation, even though there was a lot of benefits. And then I ended up living with her. My wife and I were raising kids at the time. We moved in with her in El Paso and that was a really kind of first time I worked with someone that was really heart based and not power focused. So just those three teachers compacted into a short period of my young life and it was a really powerful time. Yerasimos 00:14:50.870 - 00:14:53.910 Yeah. Did you meet your wife at one of these, in one of these groups? Joel S 00:14:54.310 - 00:15:14.290 The first group? Yeah, she's the first one introduced me to the Costaneda books. She was at one point a girlfriend to the first teacher and then he became celibate and then, you know, her and I ended up. We were friends for many years and we, we got together around the time we moved to New Mexico. Joel R 00:15:16.050 - 00:15:17.810 Are you guys still together now? Joel S 00:15:18.370 - 00:15:29.410 So this was our last year. We actually had had the best year of our marriage. But it revealed to us that it was time to do something different. So that's why I'm out in la, because I was in Montana with her and. Joel R 00:15:29.490 - 00:15:34.850 Okay, yeah, yeah, I need to bring it up because obviously people are gonna be like what you said. Sasquatch. Joel S 00:15:35.370 - 00:17:07.180 Yeah, yeah. These other beings, they're everywhere. You. I, I can introduce them to people. At night. You have to be very quiet in particular places of the wilderness. And you can do some tricks to get them to show up. And they make the craziest noises. But I've been in the presence of people that can't hear them. So it has to do with whether or not you are ready. And it's not an easy thing to be open to hearing these sounds. People could lose their marbles if they weren't prepared for the intensity of what we call entities of the night. So they're not beans that you can find physical. They're. They're, you know, they're. These are non. They're called inorganic beings. And I was trained since I was 16 to see them. If you're ever watching, like a schizophrenic person walk down the street and they're like something's tugging on the back of their shirt and they're like, trying to get it to leave them alone, it's because they're actually dealing with something, because they're opened up, not in a safe way, but they're interacting with these other dimensions and we're not. And so we can judge that and think, oh, my God, you know, this person's a lunatic. But they're. They are in a sense, because they're. They're caught in two worlds. And so I try to help people that typically would end up in a mental ward and drugged and not given the proper understanding of things. But once you cross a certain level of, I think, trauma from being schizophrenic, it's very unlikely to be able to heal it. Yerasimos 00:17:08.780 - 00:17:27.780 Yeah. Hey, Joel. Obviously this word gets thrown around all the time. And an individual can go down to, you know, Peru and have one ayahuasca ceremony and then they come back and they call themselves a shaman. So, like, what is your view of shamanism? And like, what is a true shaman? Joel S 00:17:29.140 - 00:19:44.500 Yeah, I mean, I don't refer to myself as one. I'm a student of shamans. I think shamans have very specific egoic deaths that make it so that they are shown a particular path they're meant to take. And that you have to have crossed a certain threshold of perceptual fear in order to refer to yourself as of. As such. My. My friend Tommy works with a shaman in. I think it's in Uganda. And I've just. From hearing him talk about him, I can tell he's the real deal just by the energy I pick up. Some people are just here to be of service in that way, but you're going to be dealing with the most incredibly difficult, energetic challenges that come with the lucid dreaming side. It's. The rewards are immense. I think every one of us is capable of becoming shamanic and shamanic dreaming is worth unlocking for sure. I think it's. The secret to our situation is we need to realize that this is not a physical world. It's a holographic projected reality. It's just One of many layers of the onion. And shamans do their best to try and help people to see that. And I think it's a really important thing to have. It's unfortunate that there's so many charlatans and people claiming to be shamans just because they took some drugs. It's, it's not meant to be drug based. It's meant to be something you can do without any substances. And in fact, substances are really dangerous as far as taking care of your energy body, your dreaming body, your astral body, it does tremendous damage. So finding a way to do this work where you're not taking substances is ideal. That's why I teach these magical passes, their movements, that if they're done over a couple days in a row in a large group of people, really profound shifts happen. It's like qigong or something, but it comes from ancient Mexico and so it has like a lucid, dreaming edge to it and it leads to a lot of perceptual enhancement, a lot of doors open. Yerasimos 00:19:45.860 - 00:20:30.420 So would you say, obviously you've been through your journey, you know, experimenting with substances that got you to the place to go, like this isn't the ultimate, I guess relying on these substances. So if someone were to come to you that let's say they were 15 or 16 years old, like how would you speak to them? Would you be like, hey, listen, you're going to go on your own journey and you may have these experiences or would you say, hey, I've been there, I've done that. And yet this is a different way if you choose to go this path? Because, you know, I live a sober lifestyle, I've had my experiences in the past and I tend to align more with the, the viewpoint that, you know, sure, these substances can support you in your life, but you have to be really mindful. They're very, very powerful and they can cause damage. So I'm just curious your thoughts on all that. Joel S 00:20:31.300 - 00:22:11.780 Yeah, I want people to know that you don't need to do substances at all and, and that there's a way to do it that's much more practical and pragmatic. And I highly recommend that I do though also want people to find their, their capacity to, to navigate themsel, to not follow me or anyone. Yep. Really try to help people to, to realize they're unique, you know. So Carlos was given power plants because his teacher found him to be so rigid and dense that he didn't have, he didn't think he could help him without blasting him open. But many of his Cohort students that Carlos trained next alongside of didn't need the plants at all. And so reading the books is really a powerful way to get altered in itself. The books are like life changing once you realize that they're actually talking about actual energetic facts and not. It's not some fictional story. But yeah, I also am open to people feeling the call to work with psilocybin as a means to get to know what's unresolved, because some people can't get to those layers. But I would recommend breath work, the movements, vision quest, sweat lodge, you know, physical, intense actions to heal your physical body that leads to healing the energy body. There's so many things to do prior to looking at substances as a solution. Joel R 00:22:12.580 - 00:22:42.980 Yeah, I read the first two Castaneda books maybe six years ago, and definitely, definitely very, very interesting. And like, I mean, despite whether personally I received it as reality or not, there were definitely, like, powerful esoteric insights that came through it just in the subtle text for sure. And I mean, there does seem to be like a massive, I guess, group that, you know, boo boos on it a lot and just says, like, it's all fiction. What are your kind of thoughts on, I guess, Castaneda in that sense? In general? Joel S 00:22:44.260 - 00:24:39.140 Yeah, I mean, I happen to know all those people and so many students of other students and all these connections that I. I know personally. So I can easily pick apart all the things that people are saying to discredit him because they didn't do enough research. They didn't actually want to know. They just want to jump on a bandwagon, which is really common. So I don't know, though, what, I don't know the whole story. All I know is what I'm being told that would make it look bad is based off of a lot of nonsense. So I think he pissed a lot of people off because he had a private group of 40 people that would meet every Sunday and if you weren't keeping up energetically, and he was very strict, like, no caffeine, you know, like, just you have to show up as you. And people couldn't maintain that. And so he would kick them out and then bring in somebody else. And, you know, you piss a lot of people that off that way. So I think it was a big witch hunt to try to discredit him. I work with his students and his cohort Carol Tiggs, who's still in Los Angeles, and the stuff written about her in the later books is like, it's even more powerful than what Carlos experienced in my Opinion. So there's a living legend here in Los Angeles, and nobody takes the time to even investigate because they don't take the time to read the books. They don't try to understand what's going on. But I don't think Carlos was a perfect dude. I think he probably misused his power in the later stages and was pushing people to change in a desperate way because he felt his life coming to an end. And he started to think that they needed him. And so he was, like, trying to get people to, like, be ready for stuff they weren't ready for. And I think that's reckless. Joel R 00:24:39.620 - 00:24:53.380 Got you. Yeah. I guess what we're talking about on a, you know, from an eagle. Eagle. Eagle's eye view is like the Toltech tradition. Right. So do you want to give, like, a brief overview of what that is? Joel S 00:24:53.940 - 00:31:14.290 Totally, yeah. Shamans, you know, especially during the conquistadors, the Toltecs discovered some secrets of perception. Because the conquistadors came to take out all the powerful shamans. That was their main background mission was to, like, really make sure that there was nobody that could counteract their actions in this realm. And Toltecs were very capable of offsetting some of the things that were happening. And so it was a massive process. And the Toltecs discovered how to bilocate, how to use shamanic movements as a means to get into like, a. Basically a ninja position where nobody can see you in the wilderness. You can learn to hide in plain sight, things like this, in order to not be destroyed by the conquistadors. And so they're. They're. They. They discover these movements we call magical passes, that they were in their peak of their power and the kind of the peak of their joy. And when they did these movements, it intensified their capacity to. To be focused in. In the dream state. So dreaming is. The whole point of this work, is that you can go from one gate of dreaming to the second gate to the third, fourth, fifth, and on. And eventually you move into these gates of dreaming where you go into other actual worlds as real as the one you and I are in right now. And so Toltecs believe that we're going to all need to be able to do this eventually that the world is going to get trickier and trickier, and we're going to need to be able to tap into these resources where, like, the transhuman version of this is that you'll be, like, given, like a download and go into this world and be able to walk around and explore it. But we don't need that. We can do that just through our own, you know, magical capacity. And so that as this transhuman energy rises, so does the, this remembering of what we actually are. And so the TO texts are about reminder. They give a very precise explanation through the Costa material as to what we're capable of and what kind of forces have arrived here and pinned us down and made it very difficult for us to counteract what their non human agenda is. And so these movements lead to being able to free yourself from being fed off by those interfering forces. And then you're able to cross into other worlds through the focused state of controlled dreaming. So you can turn an ordinary dream into a magical way of traveling. But it's really difficult to learn. So the movements is what I recommend people do the movements over and over and over until you're able to recapitulate. So it's a three part system, Shamanic movement recapitulation and then dreaming gates. The recapitulation is the key. It's basically where the past is still happening. And so you want to bring that event to the present and inhale the energy that you left in that scene and exhale anything that wasn't yours. And you're basically just cleaning house. And it's a really unique state of focus. And the more you recapitulate your memories, the more youthful energy will return to you and the more you'll start to remember a treasure chest of feelings that move through your chakra system that you forgot all about from childhood. And it's almost overwhelming, but you start to make room for all these feelings to move through you again. And you start to be like a time traveler where you can go into your memories so intensely that you no longer feel like you're limited. And it's a very unique state of focus. And the breath work leads to being able to really purify your energy field. And then you're, you start being able to access heightened awareness states all the time. So I'm, I'm, I'm in silence most of my day watching the psychedelic nature of this realm teach me things. I'm very attentive to the birds and I'm just tapped into like everything that's happening so deeply that I feel that I'm becoming one with it. And that's what this state of focus that recapitulation leads to is you shatter the mirror of self reflection. You start looking at the beauty of the world rather than thinking about yourself or what's going to happen to me or whatever we'd get into. And so it's, it's a. Very magically. There's a lot of freedom in this work. So it's the movements lead to the recapitulation. If you recapitulate enough, you get lighter and lighter. That lightness leads to being able to travel into other layers, which is why the dreaming starts to get intense. And then, you know, you end up having to be quite strong energetically to handle the things that happen in your dreams. You start getting massive jolts of electricity. You have to let your body shake and you have to get up and do all the movements all night because you're going through these. These experiences that are activating your. Your astral body. And we want to be able to utilize our astral body to go and. And have experiences. Like. Carlos would go to the woods in Oregon at night when he was in a bed in Los Angeles. And then he would actually visit a place in Oregon that he'd never been. Then he would get in his car and drive all the way up there and find it and get to validate that he really dreamt himself to a brand new place that he'd never seen. And that relationship we can have with this realm, whether it's surfing or snowboarding or however you can really get it in this realm, it's so powerful when you mix dreaming with it. So the shamanic stuff can be done in a jail cell, can be done snowboarding, you know, it can be done all the time. And it's just a matter of. Yeah, just making use of those three concepts. And there's actual, you know, the, the Castaneda books are such a thorough explanation that I can't give it y. You know, a good. But there's so much material there. Joel R 00:31:14.370 - 00:31:19.490 Is this, is this what Don Juan Castaneda's teacher would call like a man of knowledge? Joel S 00:31:22.050 - 00:32:22.190 Yeah. So, you know, they don't refer to themselves as enlightened. A man of knowledge is one that is not carrying information because knowledge is not information. Knowledge is power. And what, what that means is knowledge is perceptual. There's a place of silent knowledge where you're not in your mind, but your body is aware. Your entirety of your being is conscious of things that don't require dialogue. And it's this very unique state of perception that we've all been to for a little bit at a time. The goal is to live there, you know, and to learn to use that capacity to discover how to travel again, because that's. That's what's keeping us domesticated. So a lot of my friends are trying to rewild by building cabins in the woods by themselves. But. And which is powerful. But the real rewilding is being able to become lucid no matter where you are. Yerasimos 00:32:25.070 - 00:32:39.470 Yeah. So if someone to ask you this question, like, what are dreams? You know, like a person just your average person, like just goes to sleep and. And then oh, I woke up, I had this nightmare, I had this dream. Like how would you answer that? Joel S 00:32:40.670 - 00:34:06.110 Yeah. So our dream time is a really magical doorway into interacting with other beings from other worlds. And we think that it's just subconscious material playing out when we're having a dream, or that's what people tell us. But you're actually being observed by beings that can see you, that are millions of years old. And they're doing their best to try to get you involved in some sort of experience so that they can teach you and bring you over into their worlds. But because we don't know that, we just assume that the dream is, is meaningless or that there's like something around the subconscious that it can teach us. But we're actually just at the, at the doorway of these other worlds. And these beings that you think are just like, like you might think you're talking to your aunt or uncle in your dream, but if you look in their eyes, they, they don't have the eyes of your aunt and uncle. They're, they're actual beings shape shifting, pretending to be something they're not. And so it's a much more exciting world than what we've been told. It's a little freaky though to realize that we're not alone and that even while I'm here in the daytime, there's beings all around me that we share this world with. The only way I can see them though is at night time. And even then that's really difficult. So dreams are the way to interact with these other beings. Joel R 00:34:06.660 - 00:34:14.260 Something really weird just happened. This light behind me is always red. And I haven't pressed, I haven't touched it, it just turned green. Joel S 00:34:14.820 - 00:34:15.300 Cool. Yerasimos 00:34:15.460 - 00:34:16.580 That's just now. Joel R 00:34:16.740 - 00:34:19.860 Just now. Dude, it's always red. I've never touched it. It's a green right now. Yerasimos 00:34:22.340 - 00:34:23.140 That's pretty cool. Joel R 00:34:23.300 - 00:34:23.940 That's weird. Yerasimos 00:34:23.940 - 00:35:22.200 Yeah, sorry, the question, yeah, the question I was going to ask is. So a lot of people do look at dreams through let's say a psychological archetypal lens. Like so for instance, let's say we have a person, an individual who is highly repressed and doesn't connect to their. The anger, life force or more primitive instinctual qualities. You know, they may dream about, like these, you know, dark figures or, you know, vicious animals. And so from a psychological standpoint, why maybe like, hey, your subconscious is showing you, you know, these, these beings, these characters, these qualities are knocking on the door to help to. So you can integrate it to become a more whole person. So from your point of view, 1. Is that one way to look at it, or are these beings utilizing these symbols or, or inhabiting these, these, these, these beings in order to teach a similar lesson? Joel S 00:35:23.160 - 00:36:53.360 Yeah, so our wounds attract the lessons that we need. So the world will teach us everything we need to know and that. That you can learn a lot by what's going on with somebody's dreams. For sure. Because wherever you are vulnerable and. Or unprocessed, these beings that are observing us are going to make use of that opening. And it's not like because they love us, it's because that's. There's an opening. So we have predatory vampiric energies that are seeking a way to control and manipulate us from so many angles. But it's not a negative. It's just these beings are doing their job. So, like, if a tiger was chasing you in the jungle, you wouldn't be offended at the tiger for being a tiger. It's the same with these dreaming worlds. These beings are activated. So there's succubus energies that'll come for men that are saving their energy and try to get you to pass that energy on in a dream. There's also really helpful beings that come through dream doors, like the yeti. The Sasquatch are very magical helpers to have. They're the most incredible energy to be around. So there's so much support, but there's so much interference. And so, yeah, dream interpretation can be really powerful and helpful because it does point to the things. Whatever you're dreaming about is because of something that it has to do with your story that would be worth looking at. Yerasimos 00:36:54.320 - 00:36:55.200 Oh, yeah, Interesting. Joel R 00:36:55.840 - 00:37:12.640 So in your view or your understanding, like, who or what is the primary dark entity? Who are the. What are the beings that are interfering, that are influencing this world on a, you know, negative trajectory or whatever it might be. Yerasimos 00:37:14.320 - 00:37:14.680 Yeah. Joel S 00:37:14.680 - 00:37:23.520 The Toltec say that we have a companion for life, whether we like it or not, that something arrived here. They call them the flyers or the mud shadows. Joel R 00:37:23.850 - 00:37:24.170 Oh, yeah. Joel S 00:37:24.170 - 00:41:12.880 And they, they lent us their mind. And so we, whether we like it or not, we all have two minds. We have our natural Mind, which is really soft and very loving. Then there's this more hard mind that, that is like a radio channel that's hard to turn off. So it's hard to stop your thoughts truly for long periods of time because it'll just be. It's like all this garbage is going on in the background, all this stuff that you don't need to be thinking about, but it just keeps playing. And it takes real effort to get it to stop. That's because it's not our mind. And so that's a confronting thing to come to terms with. But we didn't design this place like this. We wouldn't have built skyscrapers and electrical grids and things if we had had our natural mind. We got. We're being used by this force to build our own prison. And the only way to, to. To free oursel from that is to not expect the world to change. The majority of people are going to stay in that hive mind, but we as individuals get to become powerful enough and as a group potentially to do what the Mayans did, which to not be bound to this place, to be able to dream into another vision and actually arrive in another world for a period of time if we need to, or to go into different layers of the onion that are accessible that someone like the Mayans have already discovered. Obviously I want to stay here. I want to be able to try to find a solution to just thriving in this incredible place and keep going to music and snowboarding and the whole thing. And so I think we have that capacity within certain dynamic communities to have the singular focus to where we can create like a reality tunnel of our own. And that this place is designed as a test to see if we can do that so that these forces that feed off the majority of humanity no longer have access to us as food. So we're not top of the food chain. These Mud Shadows, according to the Toltecs, are the ones that are in charge. And when you try to make massive change in your life, it will try to control you in a different way. So if you come out of victimhood and you start to think that you now above people, that you're better, that you got yourself out of something, that's another way of this program trying to control you, is making you create separation. So it's like that's why everything ends up turning into cults, is it might start off clean and then that predator energy tries to hijack that person and use them in a way different than the way they could use them before. And so it's a constant just being aware of what's going on in your personal reality and just realizing how difficult of a task it is to stay in silence to the point where this force doesn't have access to you, influencing you on any level. And so the Toltec say that you can develop enough discipline that this energy no longer finds your energy palatable and it has to leave you alone. Luckily there's plenty of other people for them to nibble on, right? So we get to like become strong enough and be that lighthouse that represents what it means to not be food. And then our energy will grow. But it's really disturbing to look around at people that have no concept of that, that just live off little bit of energy all day long and are just constantly handing it over to this force. Yerasimos 00:41:14.640 - 00:42:02.960 What have you noticed in your personal evolution? You got introduced to this stuff early. Obviously you had a lot of life experiences. I'm not sure if there are any challenges that you faced. Addiction, whether it's drugs or sex or like, like what, who are you now? In reference to maybe some of the more worldly things that let's say a lot of people navigate. Like how have you overcome them? And do they still like, do they still knock on the door and go, hey. And you're just like, well, not today, Satan, you know what I mean? Or whatever. Like, and you just, you, you choose differently and you live differently. I'm just curious what that process is like for you because I think this is what anyone listening is probably like, oh yeah, I do these practices and I like when, but man, this one thing or this thing or I just can't seem to put my phone down or you know, not pick up food whenever I'm stressed, you know what I mean? Joel S 00:42:03.040 - 00:46:00.570 Holy man. Yeah, yeah. So it's a tricky dance for me still. I have learned to love myself as I am rather than only love myself when I'm disciplined. And then I learned to come out of discipline into impeccability. And they're really different. Discipline is sort of fear based. It's like, if I don't do this, I'm going to end up looking like that, you know. But impeccability is you do the things that you love because of how good it makes you feel, not because you're afraid of what happens if you don't. It's like listening instead of thinking. So I'm very spontaneous and creative with my time. I get up at random times of the night and go walking in the dark and I really feel my Death. I really feel like, wow, you know, like this is. Why wouldn't. This could very well be my last walk or the last time. You know, I factor in the. I try to bring in my mortality a lot and just realize how lucky I am to be here. And. And so I'm in a very. There's a lot of reverence, but I'm also balance that with a lot of irreverence. Like I make fun of myself and everyone all the time. Toltecs really enjoy themselves immensely and they don't take themselves very seriously because that's the. The main enemy is self importance. So I am not disciplined and strict about what I do and when I do it. So I'll still party with friends. I'm very creative with substances. I don't use them the way that I did at one point when my marriage is really painful. But you know, my story isn't like an ideal one to listen to because I couldn't get to my pain without alcohol. Like that's what got me relaxed enough to feel my pain at one point. So I don't want people to take that and think that that's going to work for them though. It's a really dangerous thing to try and do. But that's where I was at. I could listen to music loud enough on that substance that I could finally get to the place where I could feel the depths of my pain and joy. And so I fell so deeply in love with music. That's a big way. I chase my. My vision. I get guided through dance when I'm at shows that really do it for me. And I usually go alone, otherwise I can't really drop in. So snowboarding alone on the back side of the mountain at night, you know, little psilocybin. Like I make each day count. Like I'm really active in. In. In fully showing up and. But I also take. Make sure that I take long breaks from any substances at all to make sure that I clean my system. And I practice martial arts constantly and do these movements constantly. I have a dreaming practice that makes it so that I don't have to be caught in this illusion that often I'm able to see through the veil really easily. How I got there was not through following a system but by following my intuition and really considering when I. When there was pressure on me to not read the books or to not do the movements to do them anyways. Because I knew that if you can push past the pressure, at least for a man, women probably shouldn't be pushing because it's very masculine. But for men there's a point when you gotta, you have to get really clear on what you want and you have to be kind of willing to do, you know, kind of put it all in, like I'm, I'm going to make this happen. This is my dream. And Toltecs don't look at this as if we get another shot at this. They don't believe in recapitulation. They think all those lifetimes are happening at the same time. And so if, if I can make this lifetime count, it'll give energy to my parallel lifetimes. Joel R 00:46:00.730 - 00:46:02.090 Did you mean reincarnation? Joel S 00:46:02.650 - 00:46:25.290 Yeah, sorry. So reincarnation is considered a linear explanation of a nonlinear thing. So if we can be in the non linear and consider this is our last lifetime and that if we can do some incredible things in this lifetime, it'll ripple out into all these parallel lives, we'll get the benefit. Joel R 00:46:25.930 - 00:46:30.810 Yeah, because you're drawing back in energy, right? Yeah. Joel S 00:46:31.530 - 00:50:37.990 Yeah. So there's just so much. I'm so driven to this work and passionate about it because it's my path of heart. I got shown really strongly to teach this stuff and the guidance that is present because of it, the places I go and the people I meet and everything that's tied to it. The lineage of the shamans of ancient Mexico have followed me. And so they show up every time I teach a course. And then. So it's not like this isn't really have to do with me, it just has to do with the lineage. And then this is how when, when people train with me, it rubs off the type of experiences that I've had. It's like that's how I got to live in, in such an altered state was I trained and sat next to and was associated with people who were also very, in very altered states all the time. Now I'm doing relationship work, focusing on the heart, really focusing on my shadow wounds. Having put women on pedestals, you know, getting to know my sexual like freedom through semen retention and reclaiming my focus from the, the, from, from women and more towards the earth mother, more towards the natural feminine, the elements. I've never really been seduced by money. I, in fact I had a lot of it as a kid. I could have easily just taken it, but I like was felt like it was a trap. So I turned it all down for the most part and went out to try to figure it out on my own. So I've always sought that the financial security is like a false sense of security that can hijack people. So I'm really careful to, like, live. Live pretty minimally and not get tripped out. But I also have to. I'm wanting to come out of my lack mentality as well and start charging what I'm worth and because I tend to, like, want to give it away because I have a people pleaser, which isn't healthy. And I'm actually keeping them down by not giving them permission to find their own abundance to pay what I'm. You know, it's like this whole dance that I'm struggling with. So I've been hanging out with people that have figured that out and that's been really helpful to just see the difference. So, yeah, I mean, sex, money, power, right? So power is the biggest trick. It's like having this relationship to this lineage and being able to move people's perception. In my workshops, there is a dynamic there in which that you have to be very careful. It could easily turn into something where I misused that power by, you know, seeking out a woman through that process. And I'm not saying that that could never happen. It's. You're human. But it is a tricky thing to be a leader, you know, to be give. Being given the support and energy that I'm being given. But that's how it has to work, is that we all have to find a way to turn our light fully on and get to know what's unresolved in that process. We can't expect to be perfect before we get lit up. We're going to find out along the way. And it's. It's a messy thing. This. I've been in a terrible marriage for so long and I just found ways to, like, enjoy my life so much outside of the marriage that I was able to avoid a lot of stuff that now I'm having to look at. And it's. It feels incredible to finally. I work with some really powerful women that help me get into my pain. I think I'm in my heart and in my pain, and then they get me to drop deeper and then it's this huge pop. And then I come out of that. They're like, oh, there you are. Like, we. We carry some armor throughout our lives and it's not necessarily going to go away right away. So I'm working through a lot of stuff with a lot of powerful teachers. Yerasimos 00:50:38.950 - 00:50:41.030 Yeah, man. Thank you so much for sharing all that. Joel R 00:50:41.030 - 00:50:41.390 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:50:41.390 - 00:51:24.280 Because it's, you know, it's definitely a subject that I'm so curious about, you know, being a man in this world and having impact and being in these communities and dealing with that aspect of being a man, especially like the, the sexual aspect of it and how, you know, that's such a hook that can really motivate and impact, you know, male behavior and not just men, but, you know, that's. I mean, with three men here. So I'm bringing it up. So I appreciate you sharing that because it's kind of like the shadow of it. Like, you can have this impact, you could be intelligent, you could be doing good work, and yet what's underneath? And so, like, how do you get clean? You know, how do you get clean in that regards and, and not leak the energy and not be manipulative in that way? And I think that's something that, you know, people need to work through. Joel S 00:51:25.080 - 00:52:41.070 Yeah, The. The woman that I work with is. Puts me into a. Basically says to purify my fire, to just let it burn. And so she helps me get into my pain and stay with that sexual fire and just run it through my system. And it's so ecstatic. Like, you don't need a partner when you figure this stuff out. But it is hard to be in a relationship with someone when you're having to share space with them and you're not coming together and there's all this tension all the time. So, like, it's easy to be alone. But to deal with a difficult relationship and to transcend this stuff inside of a difficult relationship is really hard. And I tried for so long, like, we were really putting in the work, and so I, Yeah, I just have so much respect for couples and for people that are alone and anyone that's looking at this stuff and is finding their own way to be honest about their pain and, and make. And going toward that pain rather than waiting for it to come toward you. It. It's so much more powerful when you walk toward this stuff rather than hope it doesn't happen. Because it's going to happen. It's going to surface. Yeah. Yerasimos 00:52:41.070 - 00:54:09.130 And again, it's like you said earlier, we're human, and I think we're moving towards a deeper place of, like, craving and wanting authenticity, like, within ourselves and even the people we surround ourselves with. Like, like, it's so many people, especially in the coaching and the spiritual and healing realms, they project this image of, like, perfection and that, like, oh, I've. I've. I've healed, period. You know, I've, I've, I've done my work. Oh, I worked on that. And then obviously, as we See, often it like, certain aspects rear their ugly head and impact the person. And so, you know, doesn't mean you can't have an impact and educate and inspire and then also be real with yourself and go, hey, listen, I'm a human being and I, I'm doing this dance with these aspects of myself and, you know, I'm continuing to dig deeper to, to, you know, get into the fire and, and so, yeah, man, I just appreciate you sharing that. I know in our world, in our communities, you know, we try to be as real as we can too, and go, hey, listen, like, we don'. Ever put me on a pedestal. Sure. Take some stuff I say. If they support you and inspire you, great. And I'm a human being and I, I have the stuff that I'm dealing with and that I'm grappling with. I don't have it all figured out. And it's just like, that's something that I really appreciate when someone who I like, I respect and admire, like, also goes, hey, listen, like, I'm a human being just like you. Like, I'm not this ascended being and I'm here to heal all of humanity. Like, that's where like my spidey sense. But the red flags go up and I go, all right, peace out. Joel S 00:54:09.290 - 00:54:53.600 Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. We, we, we don't want to be on a pedestal and we don't want to put others on a pedestal because everyone involved gets hurt. It's just a matter of time. So. And how can you be helpful if you're not, if you're on a pedestal? Because now you're not grounded. You're literally being held up by other people's energy now. So you, to get on the ground like that toltech are really big into, like, once you've reached certain dreaming states, you go get a job from like a real someone that'll just with you constantly to see where you're really at in your center. And so there's, there's some tools you can apply. The Matrix is perfect for, like, there's so many incredible teachers out there. It just depends on how you interact with them. Yerasimos 00:54:53.920 - 00:55:08.940 Well, what you said also reminds me of like, the saying, like, where someone thinks they've done all this work and it's like, well, go spend Thanksgiving with your family and let's see, let's see how conscious and healthy and aware you are. You know, you're losing your. Because your mom says the same thing she said to you for the last 30 years, you know? Joel S 00:55:09.180 - 00:56:22.210 Yeah. So many triggers, man. And but yeah, you do. When you. I, I have worked with people who are so funny and so free, you know, that it's just inspiring to, to get to that level of lightness where you can make fun of yourself just constantly and, and be able to be in the presence of things that used to trigger you completely and just be fascinated and no longer at odds with it. Like, that's true alchemy. And there's so much to, to do when it comes to learning about to if this is about knowledge of self. And so the recapitulation sends you through all your cringiest moments. It forces you to go feel all the things that you didn't really want to feel. And by staying inside of those feelings, you, you liberate the, the intensity so that you can go and do things that would normally be embarrassing without being embarrassed, which gives people permission to act like little kids and to be more playful and, you know, so a lot of my workshops were like getting down on the ground and rolling around and making funny sounds. And it's so healing to see people just get into their, their childlike state. Yerasimos 00:56:22.690 - 00:56:51.060 Sounds like my acting training from many years ago. Yeah, yeah, but it is, it is that playfulness. And then you're living in this state of flow and less self censorship, self criticism and like preemptively stopping yourself from just acting in a natural way because you're judging, oh, I can't do that. Because then what is this person going to think? And what is my mom going to think and what is my 5th grade friend from high school from. From back in the day is going to think? Like, it's like that feels like so constricting of natural energy as opposed to. Joel R 00:56:51.060 - 00:56:52.920 Just like, that's powerlessness. Joel S 00:56:53.960 - 00:56:54.400 Yeah. Yerasimos 00:56:54.400 - 00:57:28.270 You know, like, it's just, there's something fluid about being silly and then like doing something that maybe is embarrassing but not maybe feeling super embarrassed. Sure, if you do something disrespectful, you might want to feel that healthy. Like, maybe I shouldn't have said that to that person or did that. I think that's natural. But generally speaking, like, again, like, play. Like, I feel like a big part of life is to play and to have fun and even within the depth of like, oh, I'm doing this deep work to like heal my wounds. And you know, my mom and dad did this to me as a kid and like, yes. Joel S 00:57:28.590 - 00:57:32.390 And, you know, exactly. Oh, so cool. Joel R 00:57:32.390 - 00:58:02.630 Well, I mean, it's just another context of giving away your authority, like refusing to be playful because you, you fear being judged you know, it's like you're. Yeah, it's another hole in your energy. In my opinion, Joel, you kind of touched on it. But I want to get a kind of deeper extrapolation, if I can, around life after death in the Toltec tradition. Like you mentioned that this is the. This is it and like all things are happening simultaneously. But are there specific views or teachings on what happens post this experience? Joel S 00:58:04.310 - 01:01:21.820 Yeah, it's, you know, it's a really profound thing to talk about for the Toltec since it's very much the goal of this work is to re. Keep your attention intact so that you don't recycle when you die. Because if I were to die and not reach the afterlife, so to speak, which I will, but it might be for a brief moment and then I recycle again. And that recycling would look like me going into a parallel life. So I would say that we've already had this lifetime, that this is a memory and all other parallel lives have already happened as well. And yet time is not linear. So we get to live them as if they're now and, and they really are now. Like it's. It's just very magical the way the non linear works. But if you were able to recapitulate your life without so. So when you die, according to the Toltecs, your memories flash before your eyes and you review everything that's ever happened to you. There's a way to do that review process without having to die. And so if you can recapitulate your life, which is very difficult, but it's doable, you can be granted passage into the third attention and you get to stay there. As long as the earth is alive and conscious, you will have merged with her. And so they call it the somersault of thought into the inconceivable. You become fully lucid, you're able to go and do anything that you could perceptually imagine doing. You could become, you know, one with all things or you could be individuated doing your own thing in different. Some remote area that's never been explored potentially this is just like, this is just a platform for that launching pad for us to go into the. Into that more that second birth. And so a conscious death is critical to. To this like that we be. We don't lose our marbles or become senile or develop Alzheimer's. Like that is critical to the, to the warrior to keep their memories strong and accessible and to not have them get all scrambled. And so you want to be really doing the inventory work. But when you enter into the afterlife, you. You would leave without. You would. Your physical body would transfer into pure energy and you would merge into these other layers of attention. So you wouldn't leave a body behind. So your body is actually really, really important. It's not just an avatar that we're borrowing. It's made of pure energy. And it's meant to be taken such good care of that it can handle the jolts that will come when you start to free yourself perceptually, which is to become aware of your totality. Toltecs say that we are born with our totality and we die with our totality. But in between, we forget all about it. And we need to bring death in as that advisor to help us realize how important it is to gain totality prior to our death so that we don't have to die a normal death. Yerasimos 01:01:23.590 - 01:01:26.550 So when you say totality, can you elaborate on that further? Joel S 01:01:28.150 - 01:03:52.310 We are not physical beings. We are experiencing this world as if we are physical. But we are luminous balls of light that are inside of a description or a hallucination that makes it seem physical. And because it seems physical, it is physical. So we die a physical death because we perceive oursel dying a physical death. There's a way to become energetically liberated. So you see the world the way you saw it when you were born, before the hypnosis kicked in. And so little babies don't see physicality. So every one of us remembers seeing that energy. Just the energy, not the imposed description. We also have a dreaming body, an astral body that's like six to ten feet behind us. And we can learn to use it to remote view, to go into other worlds, to have the most ecstatic experiences in lucid dreaming. And when you become telepathic, psychic, capable of bilocating, capable of being in two places at once, because you can use your dreaming body to be like another version of you different part of the world. Those are all things that happen because you discovered the totality of your being. So it's just a combination of things that reveals what you know. What a real man or woman of knowledge is, is someone that has accessed their perceptual intensity and made full use of it. So it's not. It's not like there's. There are people that have done this, that are doing this. I'm nowhere near being able to do these things. But I'm like in martial arts, I'm always trying to find a class where there is no mastery Something that's just infinite in its potential. So it's a very high bar. There's no, like, there's no ceiling. The dreaming arts are just infinite in their potential. So our totality is. We long for it. We know something's missing. We know we've been deceived. We know there's more to this world. And it's a matter of letting that longing and curiosity, like, propel you forward into seeking greater understanding of what's possible and, and what therefore we are, and therefore what this world really is. Yerasimos 01:03:53.509 - 01:04:25.450 Yeah, yeah. You, you mentioned before you bring mortality into things often when you're walking or in your day to day. And something Joel and I say often is memento mori. Like, remember, you will die. Obviously, like, for me, that has been a meditation just to even have more groundedness and gratitude for my current experience and for what I'm doing and the people in it, knowing that this experience, like this is going to end. And so is, is that, is it similar like your way of looking at it or. Joel S 01:04:25.690 - 01:05:18.950 Yeah, yeah. Toltec say that your death is. Is an advisor and it's the only one that'll be truly honest with you and your death is stalking you. So death is the player and life is the arena. So life wouldn't be this way if death wasn't, you know, if there was no death, it would be so different. But we actually behave as if there's no death. It's. It's so something got a hold of us. Otherwise we wouldn't be doing that. We wouldn't be so unconscious to that degree. So the more we bring death in. Right. Like Don Juan would. Would sit there and pet his death and say, he's right here. He's my best friend. You know, he became so close with his death because he's so thankful to be alive that the only thing that keeps him in that state of gratitude is the presence of his death. Joel R 01:05:19.590 - 01:06:42.080 Yeah, I mean, that's the same idea behind the origins of existentialism. You know, it's like by contemplating death, we give meaning, more meaning to life. Yeah. I want to share one of my favorite quotes from Don Juan on the Active side of Infinity, where he says the basic difference between an ordinary man and a warrior is that a warrior takes everything as a challenge, while an ordinary man takes everything as a blessing or a curse. The self confidence of the warrior is not the self confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self confidence. Self importance is man's greatest enemy. What weakens him is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of his fellow men. Self importance requires that one spend most of one's life offended by something or someone. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity. So far, potent man. Potent for sure. So you mentioned some of the experiences that you have or have not had, but can we better get a bit clearer? What are some of the most like, magical experiences that you've personally experienced, like have you b located or some of this other stuff that we've been talking about? Joel S 01:06:44.560 - 01:11:20.060 My, my most liberated moment is called the Gate of Power. And it's when you're, you know, in the, in the third book, Journey to Ixlan, he talks about taking Carlos out to try to teach him the Gate of Power. And it's when you're running in the wilderness or in the desert at night and you have to let go of your ability to see and trust in your energy body to know. And so if this, if and when this happens, you realize that we're much more resourceful than we realized. So for me, it was like completely pitch black, treacherous terrain. And for whatever reason, I surrendered to this feeling. And I was being held by the most incredible loving presence. And I was able to transport myself very quickly through these incredible mountains in the dark. And I couldn't feel my feet hitting the ground. I just felt carried. And yet I was running and it was just euphoric. And I've experienced it many times, but never like the first time. And I'm okay with that. I. It lives with me. It's become part of my martial arts. It's become part of my snowboarding. It's just the way I move. It's very feminine, actually. So our, our finding our feminine side is key to not putting women on a pedestal, to not needing to get something from a woman, is because you have access to your own relationship with the divine feminine. And so this, this is a very beautiful way to heal, is to have ecstatic experiences of that nature. But I get to every day see the beauty of this earth, and she communicates with me in the most incredible ways. And so I, I very much follow signs and omens. You know, that's what led me to la. Like, I'm guided to places at particular times in my life and I'm being shown, you know, the future too, and being given vision of things that are going to happen. My teacher used to tell me this. This stuff that's happening to me now. And I just didn't know what the she was talking about. I just kind of thought she was crazy and. Yeah, so just this gazing thing that I do, right? So, like, I'll be sitting on a dock, staring into the sunlight reflected off of a lake. And then I get really quiet, and all I like, my eyes are just barely open, and I'm just only focused on this light that's moving on the water. And then pretty soon, all of a sudden, that's gone, the dock is gone, the whole city's gone. And I'm just surrounded by a bright orange color. And I've now forgotten where I was. I don't know what's going on. All I can do is perceive this color. And my heart rate is quick. I'm having to breathe faster and faster. And then another color comes in, and it's just. I'm just being blessed with this incredible new. It's like being a child and seeing color for the first time. It's just so beautiful. It's just so pure. And then. Then it just eventually pops into a memory of my childhood where I'm, like, returned to this experience. It's like some part of me is being accessed that I'd forgotten all about. And usually it's so intense that I panic, and I end up back on the dock, starting over again. I don't know how to handle the intensity of these things. I get too excited. I'm like, that's happening. You know? And so I've forgotten my name. I've forgotten who I am, what this place. Like, it's just this totally intense way of interacting with the world. So for me, sun gazing not directly at it, which is fine too, but sun gazing off of any object where it's reflected. I've learned to walk into other layers of the onion just by working with the sun. So I become very close with the sun. Joel R 01:11:23.180 - 01:11:24.300 What is the sun? Joel S 01:11:29.420 - 01:12:25.960 I've. I experience it as that which is projecting this. So it's a projector. And we. If shamans learn to go backwards to the stream of consciousness that is projecting this experience, and then they realize that they have all these streams of connection to all these parallel lives. So that's like the higher self. And from that place, you can transfer grooves, like on a record, go into another layer of the onion. And so I think we're all projectors, and the sun is like a larger projector that's lending us the capacity to become like it. So I think for Men, they can be. You know, we can become a sun. We can merge with it. I think we. I'm going to go through the sun when I leave here. And. Yeah, I just feel that it's. It's just this most incredible, loving consciousness that's lending us the most magical energy. Joel R 01:12:26.680 - 01:12:27.080 Yeah. Joel S 01:12:27.080 - 01:12:49.200 And we just haven't. Most people don't go into silence enough to interact with it to that degree. But I drink the light. Like, I'm not just getting my son in. I'm, like, consciously drawing it in through my eyes, through my entirety of my being. And it heals me because I'm so conscious of what it can do. Joel R 01:12:51.680 - 01:12:56.400 I mean, just simple, real conscious thankfulness for the light. Joel S 01:12:56.960 - 01:12:57.320 Yeah. Joel R 01:12:57.320 - 01:13:01.760 For the sun. Like, it's such a profound shift. Yeah, yeah. Joel S 01:13:02.400 - 01:13:54.420 And the darkness, too. There's. There's a way to be with the void of the sun, to be in the. In the dark and have the most profound feelings come up, you know, So a lot of shamans seek that out as. As well, because they'll even bury themselves in the earth with, like, a breathing tube for, like, multiple days in order to reset their energy to handle more and more difficult perceptual tasks. Because the earth mother will give you all this incredible love and support. Like, when my girlfriend died at 19, suddenly, we were super close. And when I reached a point of pain that was intolerable, I was told to go dig a grave and put my body down into the earth as if I was going to die and to, you know, really give her my pain. Joel R 01:13:54.420 - 01:13:54.620 And. Joel S 01:13:54.620 - 01:15:30.980 And it. I was so numb that I couldn't even cry. But I was told just pretend to cry and eventually the real will come up. And it did. And she was just pulling it out of me. And it was just the most incredible thing to realize that there's a conscious, sentient female energy there. And then I was told, she will take all your pain, but make sure that you ask her to fill you up with fresh energy before you walk away. Because that pain was my fuel. I was living off of that energy. And so when I. I stayed there and was healed by her. And when I walked out of there, I was like, floating. Like, it completely transformed me from being in, almost totally lost to totally, you know, have found my. My path and my purpose in. In like. Like in an hour. Is it that right timing? So I think the earth and the sun are just these. I don't think we need all these other mediums and angels and protectors and spirit guides. And I think people don't Even need any books. It can work with the earth and the sun and those two beings will do so much. And all the elements associated with this magical realm, like the rain and the waterfalls and snow and wind, it's. It's all alive and conscious and we act like we can measure it and all the miserable scientists trying to explain how this place works and it's just so much more to it. And the only way to know that stuff is to open your heart to, to the possibility. It can sound a little woo woo, but you stop caring what it sounds like when you experience it for real. Yerasimos 01:15:32.820 - 01:15:56.260 Yeah, I think when you have the experience of something, people can say whatever they want about things and you're like, okay, go on doing the things, saying the things like I know what this is for me and how it impacts my life and who I am and what I. And how I choose to live. And so it, it's like you're not being triggered by it anymore in a sense because you really know it. It is, it is so embodied. Joel S 01:15:56.660 - 01:15:56.980 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:15:58.020 - 01:15:58.580 Yeah. Joel R 01:15:59.220 - 01:16:05.780 I guess. While we're kind of on the topic, can you give us like your brief perspective of, of the Earth and of the moon as well? Joel S 01:16:08.660 - 01:17:32.060 Yeah, I mean to me it's just a perfect system. Like the sun heats up the Earth and the moon, you know, is a cooler light. It does, it's not getting its light from the sun, it's. It's magnetic and it pulls the heat out of the Earth. I think this realm is infinite, you know, that it's not what we've been told, that we've been deceived as to how, how big it is and that it's. I think it goes on into other worlds, you know, like that Mars is probably a sun for a more distant part of the Earth. So I think we're just need to come out of the hypnosis around, you know, what we've been told it is because. Not that we know what it is, but we just definitely want to, to undo the ideas that are non sensible. But I think the moon is looked at by a lot of people as an intruder, as a technology. I hope not, because I love full moon nights and just how incredible the energy gets. And I, I really think it's a beautiful system we're in. And I think women are meant to menstruate. I don't think it's a negative. People say it used to happen less and therefore they were less crazy. And I, I don't know, I just think it's really beautiful. I think the moon and the sun being the same size is. Makes more sense than that. We're in some random location that makes it seem that way. Joel R 01:17:32.380 - 01:17:32.860 Yeah. Joel S 01:17:33.260 - 01:18:16.480 You know, so I just think it's a really. I. I don't think, though, that it's a fixed physical world. So if we were up in the stars, looking at this place, we would see it as a light. And. And then when you get here, though, you experience it as. As a physical place, but there's Earth light, and there's a toroidal field that surrounds every living object. Right. That's what Toltec say is everything's a ball of light. And so being able to see our own ball of light that surrounds our physical form and see that with plants, trees, and animals, I think the same thing is. Is witnessed with the stars, the sun, the moon, the Earth. We're all just energy. Joel R 01:18:18.000 - 01:18:45.820 Yeah, I. I hear you, man. That's resonant to me as well, you know, in terms of the. The creation being a beautiful creation. And obviously, there's a lot of talk out there about the moon being inorganic or, you know, humans being food for the moon, or, you know, from Gojo for like. Or the moon, like you said, being like a artificially placed technology which is meant to disrupt whatever it might be. But, yeah, I've got. I've got my doubts on that front too, but who knows? Joel S 01:18:46.380 - 01:19:00.380 Yeah, I'm open to. I want to learn. I think that's what the Toltec say is our lot is managed to learn. So a lot of people have this idea that they figured it out and therefore they stop learning. Joel R 01:19:00.540 - 01:19:01.300 Yeah, Right. Joel S 01:19:01.300 - 01:19:25.810 So unlearning not doing, coming out of the doing of life and moving into the. To the not doing. It leads to more psychedelic revelations around things. You just start to real, like, you don't need even anybody to tell you. You just start to sense when something's a deception or a hijack, and you start to. To just not let other people's perceptions of things get in the way of your own intuition. Joel R 01:19:27.410 - 01:19:27.890 Yeah. Yerasimos 01:19:28.940 - 01:19:35.340 Joel, what are you excited about right now in your life and this new transition that you're in? Joel S 01:19:36.700 - 01:21:44.180 Yeah, man, just really thankful. Just. I've been very. Not connecting with people, been very private, and just sort of like a wound from being in cults, I think. And so I just haven't let myself make friends. I haven't been, you know, allowing that process, and I just. Coming out of that, and all this incredible stuff's happening with so many people. Austin was huge for me, just, you know, like Mark Ober Cal Callahan and Alex Zach and I did a four person podcast because they took one of my private workshops and they were all really, really profoundly affected. So they wanted to all interview me and go deeper into this stuff. And so. And then with Cal's help, he's just like making sure that people find out about me. So I'm just about to, I'm, I'm in a slingshot, about to get shot out into the stars, you know, and I'm just so like thankful and tripped out and just taking in the moment and I don't need it to happen, you know, Like, I do want to teach these workshops all over the world. Whether that happens or not, I'm not attached to that outcome. But the traveling and meeting all the people and helping people get out of their minds and into their hearts, you know, it's just, just been profound. And the women that I'm talking to that are helping me get to my pain, I just look forward to each session so much because they're just so good at what they do. And it's just, you know, just such an honor to be learning from a team of people. And I've never checked out la. I'm so stoked to like learn how to surf and like be on the beach a lot and just like give myself the permission because I love huge cities, I love food, I love walking through downtowns. And with my previous marriage, it just wasn't. LA was never an option, it wasn't on the table. And so I always had the reason why I didn't let myself be here. But just new, new adventures for me are so magical and yeah, I'm really stoked. Joel R 01:21:44.580 - 01:22:08.660 Awesome, man. Yeah, I was actually. I guess I live in Mexico now, so I'm from Sydney, Australia originally, but 2023 felt the call to come here. I've been around a bit, but currently based in central Mexico and I think there's actually some key Toltec sites near me like in Hidalgo and other places like that. So, yeah, it's interesting the places that we're called to and for what reasons? For sure. Joel S 01:22:09.330 - 01:22:30.050 Powerful. Yeah, I, I love being in Mexico and when I go to Mexico City for workshops and stuff, it's just like such a power place for me. The energy boost is next level and going to all the sacred sites with people that practice in this work, doing the movements out there in the presence of that ancient knowledge. Oh man, it's, it's, it's quite strong. Joel R 01:22:30.210 - 01:22:34.050 Yeah. Hey, you have, you have kids, right? You mentioned. Joel S 01:22:34.130 - 01:22:35.970 Yeah, yeah, 23. And 21. Joel R 01:22:36.240 - 01:22:39.920 What do they think of your path, man? Joel S 01:22:39.920 - 01:24:42.970 You know, I, I taught them some really cool things at a young age out in the wilderness about the secrets of perception. And so I planted some seeds that are just, you know, it really starting to show up in their life. My daughter came into, into this world like a little healer and is, you know, as a massage, massage therapist and is really into G M and is offering free G M stuff for donation right now because she's just cool deep into it. And yeah, it was really hard to have been trying to figure out her health stuff our whole life to only find out that it was, you know, it wasn't the food, you know, it was. It's something so much more important than that. And so she's just in a magical process of, of reclaiming her just awareness around her body and how to heal herself and, and so she's been interested in reading these books and studying, you know, the information and has been in the community a few times during our meetings. My son probably is even more gifted when it comes to these things, but he's keeping it like under a lid. He's just really into football and he works at Best Buy and he's just hanging out with the bros and just like, you know, he's just being a 21 year old boy and I took him out to, I took him to LA for, to, to have his big weekend with his friends out here and we had the best week of our life. We were like on the dance floor together and like, it was just so cool to see him, you know, reach this age and, and have that capacity to like just celebrate life and really enjoy the things that he likes. But we get into deep discussions. He's a little bit more hesitant to learn certain things because it might limit his experience with his friends. So he's staying sort of in a social like limitation around it, which is fine. I think it's great. But he's definitely really tapped in. His eyes are really lit up and so are my daughters. So it's really beautiful to see. Joel R 01:24:43.530 - 01:24:44.050 Amazing. Yerasimos 01:24:44.050 - 01:24:59.990 That's cool. Yeah, and I get it, man. I mean, I'm thinking about when I was 21, you know, in, in this culture and you know, maybe having a hint of certain things. But then, hey, this is my life and I want to hang with the homies and you know, watch the sports. But that's cool, man. I like hearing how you speak about your kids. It's beautiful. Joel R 01:25:01.270 - 01:25:04.070 The time, the time will come when it needs to come. Yerasimos 01:25:05.350 - 01:25:33.920 Joel, I know you mentioned like, you know, if you connect with the light and you connect with the elements, like you don't really need books in a sense, but like if someone is listening to this and drawn to you and drawn to the conversation that we had, are there books that you recommend like go to to really kind of get a transmission that can really maybe guide them further down a path or further into themselves and then of course, you know, anything that you want to share about you and what you're doing and you know, what you're into as well. Joel S 01:25:34.320 - 01:27:39.030 Yeah. Thank you. You know, I really recommend the Costa NATO books is such an undertaking. So I recommend reading a book called the Sorcerer's Crossing by Tysha Abelard. It's a complete journey of her apprenticeship in one book where Carlos takes you through 12 books to get to the totality of his story. So this is one book you can read. I just recommended it to Steve Falconer. Him and I are going to do a talk on my channel tomorrow. It's a magical book. It's hard to believe sometimes that it's possible what this woman experienced, but you can also listen to her talk on an audio interview and there she's a really powerful woman. And this, the, the things I teach are all based off of the, the Toltec teachings which are encapsulated in that book. As far as me, you know, I do online courses three times a year. We're in the middle of one right now called tracking and people can join at any time. There's recordings and the whole thing. So you can just enter whenever I do one on one mentoring online. So you know, 60 or 90 minute sessions. I do free consults for 30 minutes for people that want to just check it out. December 7th and 8th, I'll be teaching a, an in person workshop in Sedona and it's going to be outdoors. A lot of people from Austin that you all probably have heard of will be there. So it's going to be a gathering of some powerful folks. A lot of people that have never been are going to come training and then a lot of people come to my workshops every time because they've found that every time you enter into this work deeper, you know, more and more of your life changes for the positive. So it's, it's a very powerful thing to get a involved in, in Joel Schaefer.com or Joel. Schaefer on Instagram and I'm easily available. You can sign up for consults or sessions or courses and I'll be doing courses throughout the year. I do three a year. So the next one will probably be in Austin in April. Joel R 01:27:41.030 - 01:27:52.790 Joel, if you could leave like a, I guess a final message or, you know, something for people just to take away if they're going to take one thing away, you know, as a message from Joel Schaefer, what would it be? Joel S 01:27:55.750 - 01:28:05.240 Yeah. Be yourself. You know, find your find what really, really does it for you. Find a way to fall in love with your existence and have. Have the time of your life. Joel R 01:28:06.280 - 01:28:08.600 Perfect, man. Perfect. Yeah. Yerasimos 01:28:08.600 - 01:28:10.040 Speaking. Speaking my language, bro. Joel R 01:28:10.120 - 01:28:18.520 100%. Thank you so much for your time, man. Been a pleasure to connect. I know people are going to get so much value out of this and everyone else. We'll see you next time. Joel S 01:28:18.600 - 01:28:19.000 All right. Yerasimos 01:28:19.000 - 01:28:19.560 Take care.